Metagame USM Ubers Metagame & Sets Discussion (Check Post #107)

DMDW

Out of Stasis
is a Contributor to Smogon
#1
Approved by Nayrz
Taken over from CKW in 6/28/2018


Greetings,

Welcome to USM Ubers Metagame & sets Discussion thread. Pokémon Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon's release has brought a number of significant changes to Ubers metagame. Even after turbulence has somewhat settled down, there are still some topics of USM Ubers that are worthy of discussion. New sets are also getting discovered, and this thread is the place for it.

Here is a list of things that I'd like everyone to keep in mind:

  • Make discussions of CURRENT metagame. This means theorymoning isn't welcome. Creative sets are still welcome in this thread as long as you have a logical reasoning and preferably some replays to back up your claim.
  • Keep it inside Ubers. Let Ubers take what is Ubers's, and let other tires take what is theirs.
  • Post something informative. Most one-liners are subject to deletion by moderators.
  • Please keep it respectful. Discussions may get heated, but any kind of disrespect has no place here. Think twice before posting criticisms.
  • Discussions about tiering actions are acceptable as long as they are constructive and justified. PM Ubers moderation team for further information.

For those who were looking for...
  • thread for Viablity Rankings, go here
  • thread for one-liner questions about Ubers, go here
  • thread for older generations of Ubers, go here
  • place to have their team taken a look at, stop by Ubers Discord, have successful teams evaluated in Sample Teams thread, or check RMT forums

Other resources:

That's all. Feel free to discuss away your thoughts and sets!

===

With USM is playable on Pokemon Showdown this should be an appropriate time for starting up a thread dedicated to set discussions. The Pokemon Showdown teambuilder should come in handy when posting in this thread.

The purpose of this thread is to serve as a platform for the discussion of viable sets and in some rare cases, anti-meta ones too that are best suited for the USM Ubers metagame. For any users new to the tier, this thread should be a decent place for them to catch up with what's been going on up here and look up good standard sets that they can try out!

Ultra-Necrozma is one of the newly introduced Pokemon in this metagame. Using it in battle may seem tricky at first so here are some noteworthy information regarding its mechanics in battle.

1) By holding Ultranecrozium Z, Dusk Mane Necrozma and Dawn Wings Necrozma can use a technique known as Ultra Burst in order to transform into Ultra Necrozma.

2) Ultranecrozium Z also allows Ultra Necrozma with Photon Geyser to use its signature Z-Move Light That Burns The Sky which is a 200 BP Psychic move.

3) The attacking nature of Photon Geyser and its Z-Move depends on the higher attacking stat of Ultra Necrozma (If its Attack is higher than Special Attack, the move is physical).
Note: Burn does not directly 1/2 the physical attack of Ultra Necrozma, so if you are running the physical set and, unfortunately, get burned, Photon Geyser is still physical.

4) Ultra Burst is very similar to Mega Evolution in that it can only used once in every battle. The speed boost and stat changes also occur on the same turn Dusk Mane Necrozma or Dawn Wings Necrozma choose to Ultra Burst and transform into Ultra Necrozma. Just to clarify, this DOES NOT take up the team's Mega Evolution slot.

5) This however, means that Dusk Mane Necrozma and Dawn Wings Necrozma cannot use its signature Z-Move, Light That Burns The Sky the same turn it attempts to Ultra Burst.


Feel free to discuss sets posted by users, in hopes of making them better, or suggest different sets and spreads! While discussions are highly encouraged, please do not start going too deep into theorymon.

Edit: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usm-ubers-sets-discussion.3621030/page-2#post-7591417 Important update.
 
Last edited:
#2
The first question that came to my mind is: Which Necrozma form do you think is better to have Pre-Burst? I'm leaning towards Dusk. Psychic/Steel is a much better defensive typing than Psychic/Ghost, and being able to switch into things like Scarf Yveltal's Oblivion Wing with ease is quite nice for this mon. However Dawn has access to Moongeist Beam, which compliments what I'd consider the better portion of Necrozma's movepool.

Here's some sets I came up with (nothing unique but a good starting point):
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake
- Sunsteel Strike
- Swords Dance

Dragon STAB isn't all that important imo, this set deals enough damage either way. Earthquake allows it to break through Steel types better (except Celesteela and Skarmory), Sunsteel Strike lets it deal with Fairyceus and unboosted Xerneas and Photon Geyser is the main STAB.


Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Photon Geyser
- Dragon Pulse
- Heat Wave

Calm Mind set using Dusk as the base. You can set up Calm Minds while in Dusk form, then Ultra Burst and try to break through.
 
#3
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Photon Geyser
- Stone Edge
- Earth Power
- Dragon Pulse / Brick Break

Should be broken has no switchins enough said.


Yveltal @ Charti Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Roost
- Defog / Toxic
- Toxic / U-Turn

a mon that got a ton of buffs, should be super good this gen, safest checks to necrozma, really strong defogger very good run of the mill pokemon, no surprises here.

Xerneas @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Aromatherapy / Defog
- Hidden Power [Ground] / Grass Knot / Aromatherapy / Defog

Scarf xern was already borderline broken, now its even better with defog, necrozma and yveltal running around.


Have fun with these, just what I thought off the top of my head.
 

Jibaku

Who let marco in here????
is a Forum Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Moderator
#4
EVs are kinda arbitrary but w/e

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake / Stone Edge

You've probably already seen this. EQ is mostly for opposing Dusk Manes bc most Steel types aren't weak to it / fall apart to NVE moves anyways. Stone Edge for Yveltal/Ho-Oh/Lugia. Don't Ultra Burst too early pls.

Also wonder how a bulky Dusk-Mane focused SD set w/ Ultra Burst as a side option would fare.


Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Solganium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake / Photon Geyser
- Rock Polish / Substitute
Threat of Z-move without transforming might be worth something, especially with all the Yveltals around trying to check Ultranecro. Potentially less revengeable bc everyone's busy running MGar and Scarf Yveltal to beat Necro it seems. Sub lets you set up on Ferro/Celes w/o fearing Leech Seed, though it's not like they do a lot to you anyways.

There's probably a bulkier spread out there. I made it fast enough to outrun Scarf +Spe Yveltal after a Rock Polish and maxed its attack.

Unboosted Searing Sunraze Smash OHKOes non-bulky Yveltal and SDed ones will OHKO non super bulky Ho-Oh/Kyogre. It's also nice knowing that nothing is immune to it.

Running Weakness Policy on Dusk Mane sounds so tempting...


Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Head / Sunsteel Strike
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Moonlight
0 SpA Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-DM: 153-181 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Can also be Adamant to OHKO Xerneas after SR w/ Sunsteel.


Necrozma-Dawn-Wings @ Lunalium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Moongeist Beam
- Calm Mind
- Power Gem
Probably sucks but it deals respectable damage I guess. Beats up non Dark Defogs. More here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-obvious-spoilers.3620238/page-3#post-7579382
 
Last edited:

Fireburn

BARN ALL
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Leader Alumnus
Moderator
#5
Brief thoughts on new stuff:

  • So much stuff gets Defog now: Xerneas, Yveltal, Zekrom, Lunala, Klefki and Whimsicott for Prankster options, Tapu Koko, Landorus-T, Hydreigon, even Multiscale Lugia...there's no shortage of hazard removal options now and there's probably even things I'm forgetting. Xerneas and Yveltal will probably be the most notable new users since they can easily fit it as a filler move on Scarf sets or leverage it on a defensive set. Landorus-T might also see some use as a Defogger because of its decent matchups vs Tyranitar, Dialga, and Primal Groudon. A fat Zekrom might be a possibility if you really hate Ho-Oh and Mega Salamence. Wouldn't be surprised if Ho-Oh and Lugia spike in usage because fitting hazard removal is the easiest it's ever been.
  • Dusk Mane Necrozma is probably the most interesting addition, aside from the Speed drop it's basically a straight upgrade to Solgaleo. Defensive sets benefit hugely from Stealth Rock giving it utility and Prism Armor helping compensate for its type weaknesses - the defensive set Jibaku posted is able to 1v1 most Defog users, which makes it an attractive option for when you want to relieve Primal Groudon of SR duty. Offensive sets will enjoy the extra Attack and Swords Dance. Being able to morph into a 129 Speed Dragon on command also helps I suppose.
  • Ultra Necrozma is pretty scary, at least on paper. SD or mixed four attack sets to leverage Neuroforce will probably be the most common ways to use it, though fitting all the coverage you want can be a bit tough. You need Photon Geyser for Z-move, Dragon Pulse to hit other Dragons, then you pick two from Earth Power/Heat Wave/Power Gem/Knock Off/Brick Break/Sunsteel Strike/Moongeist Beam. Being 1 base Speed slower than Mega Gengar is also incredibly annoying, but otherwise its Speed tier is great. This thing probably becomes horrifying if you pair it with Tapu Lele...
  • Dawn Wings Necrozma is largely disappointing compared to Lunala - lower Speed, worse ability, lacks important coverage options such as Ice Beam and Focus Blast. I guess Necrozma-DW gets Earth Power if you really hate Muk. At the very least, standard Lunala got some new toys - Trick makes Choice Specs more dangerous vs fat teams and Defog could be an ok filler option on Choice sets, and it also appreciates having a more powerful Z-move for CM.
  • Don't think any of the other new Pokemon are worth anything. Naganadel miiight be usable because of its Speed tier and STABs + U-turn.
  • Primal Kyogre got a slight upgrade to physical sets with Liquidation, which hits a little harder and has a somewhat better effect.
  • Iron Tail is now legal on Power Construct Zygarde, so offensive DD sets can now kill Fairies without resorting to Tectonic Rage.
  • Heal Bell gives Magearna some much needed utility outside of just ruining Xerneas's day.
  • Meteor Mash makes Mega Lucario more reliable at dealing with Ghost-types, which is welcome. Still has some issues picking coverage thanks to The Pex's popularity.
I think that about covers everything relevant to Ubers, though I may have missed something.
 
#6
Specially Defensive Dusk Mane:
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Morning Sun
- Toxic
- Sunsteel Strike

Checks fairies and special psychics (bar dawn wings/lunala), especially Xerneas and the new Ultra Necro if running a special set, or a sd set without earthquake (+2 eq ohkos). Generally does what a good bulky steel does, abusing its multiple resistances and great bulk.

Sets up rocks extremely reliably, being able to keep rocks up vs many defoggers (except defog yveltal lol) due to its combination of the resistances and toxic immunity from its typing, its great bulk and ability, access to reliable recovery and toxic, and decent damage even when uninvested.
See (stats edited to dusk mane on the damage calculator):
0 SpA Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Prism Armor Solgaleo: 168-199 (42.2 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Support groundceus can't even 2hko or outdamage morning sun, and gets hit with a nasty toxic

Can take powerful super effective hits to get off an attack/status/set up rocks in emergency situations:
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Prism Armor Solgaleo: 228-269 (57.2 - 67.5%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Prism Armor Solgaleo: 321-379 (80.6 - 95.2%)

0+ Atk Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 211-250 (65.7 - 77.8%)
0+ Atk Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 184-217 (46.8 - 55.2%)

252/252 maxes special bulk, adamant so sunsteel strike ohkos standard geoxern after rocks, careful is fine too if you want more bulk.
0+ Atk Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 368-434 (89.5 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

edit: jibaku posted already rip

edit: another thing worth noting is that with photon geyser or earthquake over rocks or toxic, dusk mane becomes one of the few good counters to Nasty Plot Dragonium Z Nagadanel on stall, its with +2 fire blast doing max 70% before being ohkoed in return.
 
Last edited:

shrang

Unlimited power
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
#8
Other interesting Defoggers which may or not end up being useful:
- Rayquaza: Tbf Mega Mence probably does this job better but Ray can be more of an offensive Defogger with access to priority - something like Draco/V-C/ES/Defog could work
- Lunala: Hazards fuck with Shadow Shield which is the main reason I'm not fond of Defog Lugia (among other reasons) so it's similar, but Lunala has the moveslots and the ability to pressure SR users so it should be ok I suppose.
- Rotom-W/H: For some reason this thing has it even though it never got it in gen 4 - Stats are a bit lacking, but when you're fully invested you can be a decent PDon/Ho-oh/Mence switch-in, as well as even being a pivot for PDon when POgre comes in. You also have Volt Switch to escape Goth. Something like Defog/Volt Switch/Toxic/Pain Split can probably work.
- Thundurus: Another Prankster Defogger, although this one can actually pile on the hurt vs Yveltal who pretty freely blocks the others. You can run like NP/Thunderbolt/GK/Defog like your old offensive Spinners or you can even run support sets with Prankster TWave and Swagger and shit.
- Torn-T: Other Defogger with Regen, although its low damage output and lack of bulk to take on PDon and stuff is kind of a turn off
 
#9
To compliment Heal Bell on Magearna:

Magearna @ Normalium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch / Flash Cannon
- Heal Bell
- Heart Swap

This gives Magearna a one-time full recovery option that also heals its team from status ailments. Holding a Z-crystal also means that it takes less damage from LO Yveltal's Knock Off upon switchin (where you'd lose your leftovers as well if you were holding one). I guess if you wanted to, you could run this with Pain Split over Volt/Flash but then you'd have to give up either one of those moves and they're generally helpful to have.

Edit: also came to report that Defog Rotom-Wash is actually kinda cool. PhysDef pairs nicely with Magearna, and you form a little "volt volt" core.

Set I'm using (credits to shrang for the moveset):

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Defog
- Volt Switch
- Pain Split

Speed lets you outpace 8 speed 90s.
 
Last edited:
#10
Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 184 HP / 148 Atk / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Stomping Tantrum
- Toxic / Thunder Punch
(lifted straight from the SM dex analysis)

Mega Metagross gets Stomping Tantrum now. It's a 75 base power, 100 accuracy Ground move that makes contact, meaning that Tough Claws brings it to 97.5 base power, or just under Earthquake. It also has the useful effect of doubling in power if the user's previous move fails. For example, if a Primal Groudon switches in on your Thunder Punch, Stomping Tantrum will double in power on the next turn, letting you do a lot of damage. A double-power Stomping Tantrum from this set does 70% minimum to max HP Primal Groudon, letting you kill it off earlier. When its power is doubled, it actually outdamages a STAB Meteor Mash, so it can be useful for more that just hitting things super effectively. It works similarly with Toxic, doubling in power if the opponent switches in a Steel or Poison type. This could let you kill off something like Dialga or Toxapex easier. It might even double in power if an opponent switches in an already statused pokemon, causing Toxic to fail, but I'm not sure. I've not tested this move on cartridge or Showdown, and I'm not sure if the Showdown mechanics reflect the cart when it comes to this move.

Anyway this is a neat little buff for Mega Metagross if you think the 2.5 power loss and proccing Rocky Helmet/Iron Barbs is worth it. Definitely not a game changer but figured I'd bring it up.

EDIT: From what I've gathered in the Mechanics Research thread, Stomping Tantrum's power is doubled if your previous move misses. Useful if you miss Meteor Mash or Toxic.
 
Last edited:
#11
A set I've been playing around with:



Lunala @ Lunalium Z / Fightinium Z
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature / Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moongeist Beam
- Focus Blast
- Tailwind

Think of it like Double Dance Groudon: set up Calm Mind against slow teams and Tailwind against fast frail ones. You'll rarely get the chance to use both boosting moves, but it's always helpful. This set is pretty flexible - it can be both a wallbreaker and a late game cleaner, depeding on the situation. Moongeist Beam is the STAB move - bypassing abilities is also helpful, as that lets you break Unaware Clefable and OHKO physically defensive Lugia at +1 through Multiscale. Focus Blast hits the Dark and Normal types that resist Moongeist Beam, and has perfect neutral coverage with it. The EVs maximise Speed and power. Timid nature lets you outrun most support Arceus formes, while Modest gives you a bit more power. You can run either Lunalium Z for a 200 BP STAB or Fightinium Z to negate Focus Blasts's terrible accuracy once. A +1 All Out Pummelling also OHKOes defensive Yveltal after Stealth Rock and does around 63% to Blissey.
 
Last edited:

Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
#13
Been messing around on ladder and gonna give some trends I noticed:


This thing just got even better. Its in the same boat as it was at the beginning of SM where it acts as one of the best checks to of the newly released cover legends while still remaining a splashable fit on a majority of teams thanks to how many roles it can fill in one slot. Scarf and Taunt + Toxic have been my preferred sets as of late due to how annoying it can be to offensive and defensive teams respectively, but due to its access to Defog now, defensive sets have also gotten a buff since they can actually fill more of a purpose on stall teams rather then just sitting there Taunting and statusing threats. I suspect a surge in its checks like Arceus-Fairy and Scarf Xerneas to help combat its rise in popularity, but still Ygod is a great all around check to a lot of threats atm.


A great threat thanks to its high offenses and a rather under appreciated Speed stat which enables it to practically out speed most of the unboosted metagame. Both SD and Calm Mind sets work really well in breaking down its checks thanks to coverage options like Stone Edge, Earthquake, Heat Wave, and Knock Off breaking through stuff like Ho-Oh, Dusk-Mane Necrozma, and Yveltal. SD sets with Dusk-Mane as a base form are especially potent, as the type change upon bursting really helps creates a lot of 50-50 scenarios in which it helps it setup versus certain threats such as Xerneas, Arceus-Ground, and Primal Kyogre depending on when you decide to forme change. Its Z-move is also great since it basically allows it to nuke any threat bar fat Steels and Dark-types after a +2, especially with its Psyshock-esque properties in tact. Being 1 point slower then Mega Gar really hurts it and being prone to priority like Sneak and Sucker also sucks, making it a bit more easier to check offensively. However, pairing it with either Pursuit or PsyTerrain support can easily alleviate the aforementioned checks respectively.


I find Dusk-Mane to to be highly viable even without taking its Ultra forme into account. Both offensive and defensive sets work really well depending on what its team needs, as the former can setup on large amount of threats thanks to its bulk + Prism Armor while the ladder is great as a Toxic immunity and SR setter that breaks through hazard removers with Toxic. The Weakness Policy set is actually quite great at luring in stuff like Pdon and Marsh to activate its sweeping potential (although the set will probably die out over time). SD sets with Solganium-Z also work great thanks to Sunsteel + Photon Geiser + Fire / Ground coverage being extremely hard to properly wall. I see this form as basically an upgrade to Solgaleo tbh, being everything then its SM forme ever wanted to be (although the lower Speed does suck at times).


I still can't believe that I see this thing on ladder at times when its not Ultra bursting. Its just simply really bad as Lunala can basically do all that it wants to do but better (and Lunala isn't really that good atm anyways in the first place). While it can be a potent wallbreaker with Calm Mind + Lunalium-Z, its low Speed + lack of Shadow Shield really holds it back from being anything but just outclassed.

Also Ho-oh is much better with slew of Deffogers and Scarf Marsh is really fun too!
 
#14
Another trend I noticed is that Scarf is the most common set on Xerneas right now, which is most likely due to the prevalence of Ultra Necrozma, Scarf Yveltal, and Marshadow. It seems like a better idea to just spam Moonblast and chip away at the incoming Primal Groudon rather than taking any risks with all of these faster, Fairy-weak threats running around.
 
Last edited:
#15
Defog keys is a really nice set. Prankster defog is exactly what ho-oh needed to climb out of the abyss of c+ rank. I've been using this set with Marshadow:

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Defog
- Play Rough
- Thunder Wave
- Swagger

You can swap out swagger for Toxic/Spikes/Flash Cannon/Screens.
 
#18
Kinda new here, but might as well give it a go lol. Been messing around a bit with Ultra Necrozma and found that it works well with substitute

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Substitute
- Swords Dance/Stone Edge/Earthquake
- Photon Geyser

The main idea of this set is to switch dusk mane into something it can force out and substitute on the turn it does. Neuroforce boosted Photon Gesyer 1hko Marshadow. SD is an option to boost attack stats even further but can opt for more coverage moves. Sunsteel strike is for the Xern coverage while in dusk mane form and can do a lot of damage of Xern under substitute.
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Leader Alumnus
Moderator
#19
Gonna talk about something else real quick. Pokemon Bank has been updated and you can now transfer things from Gold and Silver. While this won't affect much in Ubers, there is one thing that might prove to be pretty rad: Ho-Oh learns Curse!

Ho-Oh @ Life Orb / Flynium Z
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 208 Atk / 52 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Recover

Curse boosts Ho-Oh's Attack (finally giving it an option to do so) and patches up its Defense, which allows it to beat some things it couldn't before. Giratina-A is cleanly 2HKOed by +1 LO Brave Bird, so it can no longer stall Ho-Oh out. The Defense boost also allows you to 1v1 Mega Salamence and defensive Zygarde-C - Mega Salamence cannot KO Ho-Oh at +1 Defense with even procced Facade and will be OHKOed cleanly by +1 LO Brave Bird, and Zygarde-C can no longer 2HKO Ho-Oh at +1 Defense with Thousand Arrows so it can be outstalled. Ho-Oh can even tank some Rock moves such as unboosted Stone Edge from Arceus-Ground with a Curse boost:

252 Atk Arceus-Ground Stone Edge vs. +1 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 300-356 (72.2 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Curse also means you can turn the tables on Z-Geomancy Xerneas that get overconfident with that +1 Defense. Only things that reliably beat this defensively seem to be MS Lugia and Arceus-Rock - the former can be dealt with by poisoning it with a teammate and the latter is rare.

Life Orb is fine since LO Ho-Oh's 3rd move has always been flexible, so Curse can easily fit. Flynium Z can be used to nuke some stuff with +1 SSSS, which has a good chance to KO support PDon and Bold Support Arceus with SR damage. Sharp Beak and Leftovers are also probably good options if you want something more consistent that doesn't cut into bulk. EVs live GeoXern Thunder at full while maximizing Attack.

With Curse and all the new Defog options around, it sure seems like Ho-Oh is gonna be a top mon in the USM metagame.

Thanks to Theorymon for confirming that transferred Ho-Ohs do in fact have Regenerator.
 
#20
I also tried looking up notable additions from GS, and I found something interesting that I'm not sure will be a viable option or not.


Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Recover
- Ice Beam / Substitute / Whirlwind
- Whirlpool

Multiscale Lugia now has access to Whirlpool. I believe that this is pretty cool as clicking Whirlpool allows you to properly chip at its Steel type switchins, such as Magearna, Dusk Mane Necrozma, ect. More importantly, Whirlpool traps whatever is hit by it, so you're able to prevent double-switching against your Lugia while chipping away against the Toxic-immune opposition. Sure, this won't work against primal groudon, but that's hit by Toxic anyways. I can see Heal Bell Magearna being a pretty nice partner, as that would allow you to be more aggressive with this set and try to trap and Toxic whatever wants to come in when your Multiscale is intact without caring about opposing Toxic as much with Heal Bell Magearna helping you out.

Edit: Something I didn't think about, but in theory, you should be able to 1v1 Magearna with Whirlpool unless it has Volt Switch. It doesn't learn Toxic so it can't do much meaningful damage to you, and Whirlpool's taking more HP away from it than Leftovers is able to recover back.
 
Last edited:
#21
Kinda new here, but might as well give it a go lol. Been messing around a bit with Ultra Necrozma and found that it works well with substitute

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Substitute
- Swords Dance/Stone Edge/Earthquake
- Photon Geyser

The main idea of this set is to switch dusk mane into something it can force out and substitute on the turn it does. Neuroforce boosted Photon Gesyer 1hko Marshadow. SD is an option to boost attack stats even further but can opt for more coverage moves. Sunsteel strike is for the Xern coverage while in dusk mane form and can do a lot of damage of Xern under substitute.
BTW I would unslashed Swords Dance. Substitute is actually a pretty good option to bypass Celesteela, Ferrothorn, and the rare Bronzong who Ultra Necro otherwise have trouble with more than other threats - by using Substitute on the predicted opponent switch as Dusk Mane, their attacking moves fails to break the Sub so you can SD in front of them and then utilise Ultra Burst after you SD to +6. Although choosing the coverage move will be a quite a decision to make, but a couple or more SD boost will do tons of damage, so is not really necessary to rely on coverage.
 
Last edited:

shrang

Unlimited power
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
#22
Re: Whirlpool Lugia:

Could a trap + boost set potentially work? Eg, some dude thinks it's fun to send in Ferrothorn for free Spikes, only to get trapped and set up on - run like Whirlpool/CM/Ice Beam/Rest and could potentially be funny

Also Orch - have you considered using Foul Play > Play Rough on that Klefki if you're using Swagger? You can avoid getting trapped by Goth (and just be a nuisance in general) if you Swagplay the fuck out of it :D
 
Last edited:
#23
Re: Whirlpool Lugia:

Could a trap + boost set potentially work? Eg, some dude thinks it's fun to send in Ferrothorn for free Spikes, only to get trapped and set up on - run like Whirlpool/CM/Ice Beam/Rest and could potentially be funny

Also Orch - have you considered using Foul Play > Play Rough on that Klefki if you're using Swagger? You can avoid getting trapped by Goth (and just be a nuisance in general) if you Swagplay the fuck out of it :D
Not sure- Play rough is there for sub xern, so if it subs on twave and blocks swagger, then you'd be forced to sacrifice marshadow as well. I suppose that if you 100% know that your opp won't use sub xern, then foul play would be a superior option.
 
#24
Re: Whirlpool Lugia:

Could a trap + boost set potentially work? Eg, some dude thinks it's fun to send in Ferrothorn for free Spikes, only to get trapped and set up on - run like Whirlpool/CM/Ice Beam/Rest and could potentially be funny

Also Orch - have you considered using Foul Play > Play Rough on that Klefki if you're using Swagger? You can avoid getting trapped by Goth (and just be a nuisance in general) if you Swagplay the fuck out of it :D
The other issue with dropping Play Rough is that Dark types like Yveltal would then take full advantage of Boo Boo Keys, as its Dark typing blocks Prankster moves, including Defog, T-wave, and Swagger. Play Rough gives Klefki some way to punish them.

I wanna try that CM Whirlpool set out too lol, along with its inclusion on the standard support set.
 
#25
Yveltal @ Leftovers
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Roost
- Defog
- Toxic

Not an innovation or something, but a set that has really been working right now for me, with all that necrosma staff going around. You can perhaps drop Toxic for Taunt but that depends on the team style you are running as well.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top