Please show some replays of Koko putting in legitimate work while helping the team that no other viable pokemon could have done. Please, this is crucial. Also a stall breaker that has 1 attacking move and that move has a type immune to it is not usually a good one. Koko always can not come in on toxic's, gets beaten by various Giratina's, Lugias, and specifically Blisseys or Chanseys. This thing isn't a stall breaker. If you're using this thing, it's for Natures Madness + U-Turn to lure in common counters (PDon) and gain momentum off of them or cripple them. The main problem with the crippling option is that most defensive pokemon that get lured in my Koko have a way of healing thereselves besides one (PDon), so after you natures madness them chances are you are gonna have to U-Turn, then they can Recover/Roost/Pain Split/etc.
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Resource USM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Nayrz
- Start date
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Like, I can see what Tapu Koko can do; it draws in Primal Groudon and dents it, has solid Speed to pivot around, and offensively checks Ho-oh, Yveltal, and Primal Kyogre. But I do not think that is an appropriate reason to use Tapu Koko over various of superior option.
First of all, we have Yveltal. Yes, it is slower, it doesn't necessarily check the threats I have listed. But Yveltal is already a more efficient pivot when equipping Choice Scarf. It handles array of threats that is much, much more significant than Tapu Koko's, with examples being Marshadow, Ultra Necrozma, Mega Gengar, or basically any setup sweepers that fail to invest appropriately and is slower than Yveltal at +1 or +2. Meanwhile, Tapu Koko's Electric-type STAB is remotely not good in the meta where every other Pokemon or two are resistant, immune, or very resilient to it, and Z-move can be played around very easily. Compared this with Yveltal's very spammable Dark Pulse and Oblivion Wing that provides longevity, Tapu Koko's so-called-offensive-prowess is incomprarble to Yveltal, or basically most special attackers with Choice Scarf. If there should be an argument of Tapu Koko's ability to switch around moves while maintaining high Speed and use Taunt to mess with walls, my response would be use Mewtwo instead.
Secondly, Tapu Koko provides next to no defensive utility to the team while it has very limited chance to provide that much offensive presence at all. If we take three Pokemon that Tapu Koko offensively checks, they simply don't stay against Tapu Koko. Especially on Ho-oh's cases, it is almost always paired with something that is able to handle Tapu Koko, ranging from Primal Groudon, Arceus-Ground, Ferrothorn, or in stall team's case, blobs and Giratina. While Tapu Koko can't switch into Primal Kyogre, Yveltal (more than once, or on U-turn), and Ho-oh, it can't threaten any of the common Pokemon that are paired with them. Taunting switch-in involves a lot of risk when there are more than couple threats that are able to outright OHKO it.
Lastly, Tapu Koko is inconsistent even with its miniscule "niche". Yes, appropriate use of Gigavolt Havoc, Nature's Madness, and Taunt will wreck havoc on any team, but this is all under the assumption that you are predicting everything opponent does. If someone is so good at predictions to achieve success with Tapu Koko, there are plenty of toys to play around with to make better plays to much better degree (e.g. Mega Gengar, Marshadow, Yveltal, or basically any offensive powerhouse that is better than Tapu Koko). A single misprediction means Tapu Koko will waste its Z-move, or just be deleted where it stands. It is blatantly obvious that there is not much reason to use Tapu Koko in the metagame where role compression is crucially important; Tapu Koko has miniscule potency to "wallbreak" and if it is used over much more consistent balance breakers like Mega Lucario, it will always have to be in unlikely perfect scenario where what it ends up accomplishing is still inferior compared to other offensive threats.
First of all, we have Yveltal. Yes, it is slower, it doesn't necessarily check the threats I have listed. But Yveltal is already a more efficient pivot when equipping Choice Scarf. It handles array of threats that is much, much more significant than Tapu Koko's, with examples being Marshadow, Ultra Necrozma, Mega Gengar, or basically any setup sweepers that fail to invest appropriately and is slower than Yveltal at +1 or +2. Meanwhile, Tapu Koko's Electric-type STAB is remotely not good in the meta where every other Pokemon or two are resistant, immune, or very resilient to it, and Z-move can be played around very easily. Compared this with Yveltal's very spammable Dark Pulse and Oblivion Wing that provides longevity, Tapu Koko's so-called-offensive-prowess is incomprarble to Yveltal, or basically most special attackers with Choice Scarf. If there should be an argument of Tapu Koko's ability to switch around moves while maintaining high Speed and use Taunt to mess with walls, my response would be use Mewtwo instead.
Secondly, Tapu Koko provides next to no defensive utility to the team while it has very limited chance to provide that much offensive presence at all. If we take three Pokemon that Tapu Koko offensively checks, they simply don't stay against Tapu Koko. Especially on Ho-oh's cases, it is almost always paired with something that is able to handle Tapu Koko, ranging from Primal Groudon, Arceus-Ground, Ferrothorn, or in stall team's case, blobs and Giratina. While Tapu Koko can't switch into Primal Kyogre, Yveltal (more than once, or on U-turn), and Ho-oh, it can't threaten any of the common Pokemon that are paired with them. Taunting switch-in involves a lot of risk when there are more than couple threats that are able to outright OHKO it.
Lastly, Tapu Koko is inconsistent even with its miniscule "niche". Yes, appropriate use of Gigavolt Havoc, Nature's Madness, and Taunt will wreck havoc on any team, but this is all under the assumption that you are predicting everything opponent does. If someone is so good at predictions to achieve success with Tapu Koko, there are plenty of toys to play around with to make better plays to much better degree (e.g. Mega Gengar, Marshadow, Yveltal, or basically any offensive powerhouse that is better than Tapu Koko). A single misprediction means Tapu Koko will waste its Z-move, or just be deleted where it stands. It is blatantly obvious that there is not much reason to use Tapu Koko in the metagame where role compression is crucially important; Tapu Koko has miniscule potency to "wallbreak" and if it is used over much more consistent balance breakers like Mega Lucario, it will always have to be in unlikely perfect scenario where what it ends up accomplishing is still inferior compared to other offensive threats.
- SM Ubers Tapu Koko analysis
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I agree. It's use is, like you said, is very situational, and it usually gets killed by other top tiers such as Yveltal, Mega Gengar, and Marshadow, plus a few more mons. To add to that, there a few mons that simply just wallbreak though it with ease, especially if it's been worn down, etc.Gothitelle: A --> A-
Honestly, I don't know why Gothitelle is too high in USUM. I understand the fact that it can trap Support Arceus forms other than Arceus-Dark, but Gothitelle is no longer as potent as it was in SM, when Balance dominated the metagame, because the metagame is much more offensive atm, and Gothitelle can't trap anything on Offense except a potential choice locked pokémon, and basically becomes a deadweight against everything there is in a offense team.
Ultra Necrozma being “comparable” to the mons in A- doesn’t seem very meticulous to me. It’s wall-breaking capabilities is significantly more viable than any in A- given it decimates Ubers’ “walls” (excluding things like Arceus-Dark, Mega Sableye and Defensive Yveltal). UN is the reason Scarf Xerneas, Yveltal and its aforementioned counters gained a huge usage increase. Not to mention UN can be either special or physical making it somewhat unpredictable due to each set having different checks. To summarize, Ultra Necrozma should rise a sub-rank because its wall-breaking potential and unpredictably makes it far more viable than its A- brethren.
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Sunsteel Strike
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Sunsteel Strike
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Neuroforce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Heat Wave
- Dragon Pulse / Power Gem
- Photon Geyser
Ability: Neuroforce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Heat Wave
- Dragon Pulse / Power Gem
- Photon Geyser
NOTE: DM is used over DW because it has far more step-up opportunities than it. And Moongiest Beam isn’t worth the loss in defensive utility.
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I personally think that Ultra Necrozma should be a B+ as it does check quite a few very powerful threats like Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, most Arceus formes, etc. However, it has trouble with other good mons. Some of these are scarf Xerneas, scarf Yveltal/defensive Yveltal, M-Sableye, Marshadow, M-Gengar, Arceus-Dark, and Celesteela for both the Swords Dance and Calm Mind sets. Don't forget Zygarde if transformed for SD set and Blissey/Chansey for the CM set. It's certainly a good Pokemon in the meta right now but not A- material in my opinion.
This may seem odd but Deoxys-S is among the best hazard setters for offense due to its speed and access to both Stealth Rock and Spikes as well as taunt. And if you play HO or Offense in general, you would know hazards are quite important to guarantee many kills. However, it does have to contend with Magic Coat, Magic Bounce, and more Defoggers. It also does have to compete with Excadrill and Cloyster for hazard lead. That's why it should go to B+ but not higher.
Arceus-Flying is very much a waste of a team slot due to the fact that it's just outclassed at everything it does. Yes, it can switch into Primal Groudon's Precipice Blades and other Ground-type moves for free. However, it can't do anything another possible Flying-Type and general team member can do better. As a support Arceus, it's completely outclassed by Ground, Water, Fairy, Dark, Dragon, and even Grass Arceus' to an extent to better defensive typings and lack of Stealth Rock weaknesses. As a Calm Mind Arceus, it's outclassed by Fairy, Dark, and Ground Arceus' due to their better offensive and defensive typings and in the case of the former two, they also have the ability to run mono-coverage STAB judgement. As a Swords Dance Arceus, Extreme Killer, Ground, Ghost, and even Dragon Arceus are better due to their superior STABs and typing. It's outclassed as a Flying-type attacker by Yveltal, Shaymin-S, M-Salamence, Rayquaza, both Landorus variants, and Ho-Oh. As a defensive Flying-Type, it's outclassed by Yveltal, M-Salamence, Landorus-T, Ho-Oh and Lugia. Even as a defogger, both Giratina formes (Giratina-O especially due to its Ground immunity), previously mentioned better support Arceus formes, M-Scizor, Landorus-T, Xerneas, M-Salamence, and Yveltal. All of those except for M-Salamence and Yveltal also aren't weak to Stealth Rock. When your Smogon article had almost nothing nice to say about you and there's all of this better competition, that's pretty bad.
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Your noms are telling us things we already know about these Pokemon, except for Arceus-Flying which I'll get to in a minute. I don't see what has changed to warrant these drops/rises. You haven't mentioned any relevant changes to the metagame that has affected any of these mons.
Deoxys-S is in a pretty bad spot right now with so many mons now being able to remove hazards, and its speed hardly helps it with the exception of Taunting a Defogger that may or may not be inside. With Xerneas and Yveltal getting Defog, with the addition of already-existing Defoggers and mons like Mega Salamence and even Mega Latias starting to run it more, it hasn't been this easy in a while to keep hazards off the field. The shitty part about hazard leads in this meta is that they hardly ever get the chance to try to ensure that hazards stay up shortly after laying them, as they mostly die within 2 turns. I honestly find Fast Primal Groudon to be the best "hazard lead" right now as it has the immediate power and bulk to fight and keep rocks up, while being faster than lead Excadrill and Cloyster to threaten them with attacking moves instead of Taunt. Meanwhile, Dusk mane Necrozma has the staying power to keep setting rocks for the majority of the match and has a good matchup vs most of the Defoggers in the tier.
You're hella wrong about Arceus-Flying. It's probably one of, if not the best CM Arc form rn. Flying is such an amazing typing to run a mono-attacking CM set with, and the best aspect to it is it can 1v1 SpDef Dusk Mane, along with most other Toxic users, with Refresh + CM. Being immune to Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web is also a major bonus for it. It doesn't run Support or SD so I don't know why you even mentioned those sets when they're irrelevant to Arceus-Flying. It seems like you based your argument off of assumptions from the previous metagame pre-USM instead of actually seeing it in action in the current metagame.
No comment on Ultra Necro.
I'd agree looking at my reasoning for Arceus-Flying that I was very much incorrect as I hadn't seen very much action w/ it and based my nom on SM instead. I still stand by my thoughts on Ultra Necrozma though.
mags
Banned deucer.
Arc flying definetly took a hit in usm because any offensive duskmane can beat it and that's one mon you really don't want to be giving free setup oppurtunities. In general arceus kinda took a hit imo due to offense not needing it. I've seen quite a bunch of teams that don't have arceus nowadays while before that was unheard of. arc flying still seems decent where it's at though like at most it would need to drop to b but if you look at everything below it you gotta realize arc flying is definetly easier to fit onto a team than those other mons at least I think it is.
Ygod down to a+ is something I'd like to see. I'd love to see some discussion it from both sides since I really don't care that much to make a huge argument for a drop but I'll say a few things. I think the two best sets are toxic/taunt and life orb. Both shutdown by mag and that's obvious which isn't a big deal because mag kinda a momentum loser with the introduction of duskmane making it easier for the player to switch between pdon/dm to prevent voltswitches and chip onto pdon. taunt toxic is still very good at breaking down bulkier squads and it checks a few things that offense will likely have but it's actually pretty bad vs offense. Checks marsh but gets worn down by rocks fast. With duskmane around pdon can afford to run more offensive spreads so rocktomb/overheat kinda making it a very shaky pdon switchin. Can revenge kill a duskmane I guess but if rocks are up and they get an rp they can easily blow by you with zmove. Still a very good set just wanted to point out the down sides of that set. Lo can run sucker making it a lot better vs offense being able to revenge kill marsh still and revenge kill duskmane. It's also a lot stronger and nothing on offense wants to switch into it except a sr fairyceus. However it can be worn down fast due to lo recoil and sr weakness and lack of roost. It's slightly less effective at breaking balance compared to taunt/toxic but if paired with the right teammates it can be more effective I guess. Scarf ygod is garbage and I think this is why ygod should move down. When reading the reasons why ygod deserved s rank I saw a lot of mentions of ygod being versatile with its sets and that all of the sets are strong. Now that the meta has settled and ppl realizing ultra necro pretty bad I think it's clear to most ppl that scarf ygod is horrible. It's piss weak so even offense doesn't really care. You can revenge kill some stuff but it's easy to switch into so it really does nothing vs any good player with a decent team. Snake matches were in sm not usm but the winrate for scarf ygod was like 25% or something and it was used a shit ton. I really don't see how scarf ygod got a buff in usm. Ultra necro is barely used. Duskmane can rp and outspeed it and ohko after rocks. Spd duskmane can toxic it on switch and then morning sun to scout the move without losing a large % of hp. Mag is still decent. Ppl even running random stuff like pursuit marsh to combat goth so that support arcs can stay around which is very annoying for ygod. That being said it's not complete deadweight of a set but it's pretty goddamn bad and I think if ppl realized that then it would warrant a drop to a+
Ygod down to a+ is something I'd like to see. I'd love to see some discussion it from both sides since I really don't care that much to make a huge argument for a drop but I'll say a few things. I think the two best sets are toxic/taunt and life orb. Both shutdown by mag and that's obvious which isn't a big deal because mag kinda a momentum loser with the introduction of duskmane making it easier for the player to switch between pdon/dm to prevent voltswitches and chip onto pdon. taunt toxic is still very good at breaking down bulkier squads and it checks a few things that offense will likely have but it's actually pretty bad vs offense. Checks marsh but gets worn down by rocks fast. With duskmane around pdon can afford to run more offensive spreads so rocktomb/overheat kinda making it a very shaky pdon switchin. Can revenge kill a duskmane I guess but if rocks are up and they get an rp they can easily blow by you with zmove. Still a very good set just wanted to point out the down sides of that set. Lo can run sucker making it a lot better vs offense being able to revenge kill marsh still and revenge kill duskmane. It's also a lot stronger and nothing on offense wants to switch into it except a sr fairyceus. However it can be worn down fast due to lo recoil and sr weakness and lack of roost. It's slightly less effective at breaking balance compared to taunt/toxic but if paired with the right teammates it can be more effective I guess. Scarf ygod is garbage and I think this is why ygod should move down. When reading the reasons why ygod deserved s rank I saw a lot of mentions of ygod being versatile with its sets and that all of the sets are strong. Now that the meta has settled and ppl realizing ultra necro pretty bad I think it's clear to most ppl that scarf ygod is horrible. It's piss weak so even offense doesn't really care. You can revenge kill some stuff but it's easy to switch into so it really does nothing vs any good player with a decent team. Snake matches were in sm not usm but the winrate for scarf ygod was like 25% or something and it was used a shit ton. I really don't see how scarf ygod got a buff in usm. Ultra necro is barely used. Duskmane can rp and outspeed it and ohko after rocks. Spd duskmane can toxic it on switch and then morning sun to scout the move without losing a large % of hp. Mag is still decent. Ppl even running random stuff like pursuit marsh to combat goth so that support arcs can stay around which is very annoying for ygod. That being said it's not complete deadweight of a set but it's pretty goddamn bad and I think if ppl realized that then it would warrant a drop to a+
I disagree with your dismissal of scarf Yveltal. While I agree that as a set alone, I definitely don't think it's S rank, or even A rank for that matter, I do believe that it's more than good enough to have to account for when facing a team with Yveltal.
LO Ygod is easily one of the most difficult mons to pivot around atm, and when a team packs decent LO Yveltal switch ins like Magearna or Fairyceus, it can easily take advantage of obvious switches with U-turn as those 2 mons are pretty easily taken advantage of in Ubers. Also, whilst its stabs are pretty weak, Foul Play is a very difficult move for offensive teams to switch into, also making it a solid revenge killer against weakened teams. Despite being weak, Dark Pulse and Oblivion Wing both have potent secondary effects that really add to Ygods effectiveness as a scarfer - Oblivion Wing with no HP investment really does aid Yveltas longevity and helps mitigate its SR weakness, and we all know how annoying scarf Dark Pulse flinches can be.
Whilst scarf Yveltal certainly has its flaws, I do believe that it has plenty of merits as well, especially when taking into consideration how scary its other sets are and how scouting is almost absolutely necessary whenever you see an Yveltal at preview, thus justifying its S ranking, imo.
Deoxys-Attack: Top of B+ -> Below Lugia
With DM and Yveltal everywhere, it's job of spamming Psycho Boost becomes much more difficult. Defensive DM isn't 2HKO by anything Deo-A can use, while Offensive can take a hit, RP, and counter-sweep under Psychic Terrain. Scarf Y-God outspeeds, and LO sets can kill with Sucker once Terrain is down. In addition, the more offensive nature of the meta makes it difficult for lele to come in without dying. If its main set is something other than abusing P-Terrain, let me know, because Deo-A simply isn't better than stuff like Lugia or Arceus-Dark if that'sits only niche, especially when Ultra Necrozma exists.
With DM and Yveltal everywhere, it's job of spamming Psycho Boost becomes much more difficult. Defensive DM isn't 2HKO by anything Deo-A can use, while Offensive can take a hit, RP, and counter-sweep under Psychic Terrain. Scarf Y-God outspeeds, and LO sets can kill with Sucker once Terrain is down. In addition, the more offensive nature of the meta makes it difficult for lele to come in without dying. If its main set is something other than abusing P-Terrain, let me know, because Deo-A simply isn't better than stuff like Lugia or Arceus-Dark if that'sits only niche, especially when Ultra Necrozma exists.
I'm not too knowledgeable about this meta and all my experience comes from spamming HO on the ladder when I'm bored, but I think Scolipede deserves a placement somewhere, probably around C+. Tspikes are actually really fucking good b/c they pressure common stuff like pdon, xern, support arc, and make the HO matchup versus marshadow somewhat tolerable and Scolipede actually has some decent techs to cheese past some common leads against it. The set i've been using is:
Scolipede @ Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Endeavor
- Twineedle
- Spikes / Earthquake / Toxic
Twineedle is actually highly amusing because of the poison chance (you ohko deo-a and 2hko deo-s 99.6% of the time anyway, so the drop in power from pin missile is negligible) and u can actually annoy stuff like mega sableye. Endeavor is so you're not set up bait. You can run dual hazards or you can go for eq or toxic. Eq is for excadrill and mega gengar while toxic can annoy support arceus formes that lead off against you, although endeavor+twineedle can also accomplish this, albeit less consistently. As with all suicide leads, this only fits on full HO (which is not a great playstyle imo since something like marshadow+yveltal+dusky stonewalls a lot of builds) and the presence of stuff like defog yveltal, defog ho-oh, and the fact that every fucking mon gets defog now (defog xerneas? tf?) can limit its effectiveness, but overall its still good for at least a tspike. It's still a tier below other dedicated leads, in part b/c it loses to all of them besides the deos, (exca if it doesnt have eq, cloyster shits on it, it can't stop webs / spin them away) but the biggest niche it has over those is its ability to viably run a dual hazard set and its really fucking good speed and access to endeavor, which can really hurt inexperienced opponents.
Scolipede @ Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Endeavor
- Twineedle
- Spikes / Earthquake / Toxic
Twineedle is actually highly amusing because of the poison chance (you ohko deo-a and 2hko deo-s 99.6% of the time anyway, so the drop in power from pin missile is negligible) and u can actually annoy stuff like mega sableye. Endeavor is so you're not set up bait. You can run dual hazards or you can go for eq or toxic. Eq is for excadrill and mega gengar while toxic can annoy support arceus formes that lead off against you, although endeavor+twineedle can also accomplish this, albeit less consistently. As with all suicide leads, this only fits on full HO (which is not a great playstyle imo since something like marshadow+yveltal+dusky stonewalls a lot of builds) and the presence of stuff like defog yveltal, defog ho-oh, and the fact that every fucking mon gets defog now (defog xerneas? tf?) can limit its effectiveness, but overall its still good for at least a tspike. It's still a tier below other dedicated leads, in part b/c it loses to all of them besides the deos, (exca if it doesnt have eq, cloyster shits on it, it can't stop webs / spin them away) but the biggest niche it has over those is its ability to viably run a dual hazard set and its really fucking good speed and access to endeavor, which can really hurt inexperienced opponents.
Why is Bronzong not in the VR? I mean it may not be as useful as it was in ORAS, but i think it deserves to be at least ranked somewhere.
I do not feel like i need to make a big post about what it does, since it is pretty standard. (Rocks, checks xern, groundceus etc etc)
I do not feel like i need to make a big post about what it does, since it is pretty standard. (Rocks, checks xern, groundceus etc etc)
Cynara
Banned deucer.
I don’t think bronzong is usable in the tier, anything it could do is absolutely outclassed by Support Dusk Mane in its role, Bronzong is a passive steel compared to DM and loses out on any reliable recovery which is a huge loss for a support steel. Due to Bronzong’s passiveness, its a momentum suck against its common switch ins, Fire Move Groudon is also much more common these days.
Its also Gothitelle and other Shadow Tag bait, whetheras Goth cant switch in on DM after rocks and DM also has the option of running solgalium Z on support to help further cement this.
Niche sets like Trick Room Zong are also outperformed by other TR users including DM itself, which is probably the best TR user in the meta right now.
I dont think being a makeshift Groundceus / Mence check is enough to justify it either, it has to compete with Celesteela which checks these pokemon and competes with other steel types nowadays as well.
Its also Gothitelle and other Shadow Tag bait, whetheras Goth cant switch in on DM after rocks and DM also has the option of running solgalium Z on support to help further cement this.
Niche sets like Trick Room Zong are also outperformed by other TR users including DM itself, which is probably the best TR user in the meta right now.
I dont think being a makeshift Groundceus / Mence check is enough to justify it either, it has to compete with Celesteela which checks these pokemon and competes with other steel types nowadays as well.
hyw
Banned deucer.
I disagree, I think that Bronzong is very usable. For teams that need a Pokémon to fill in Duskmane’s traditional role but are in need of a Groundceus counter and improvement in the stall match-up, Bronzong offers an alternative option through role compression. I do not think TR is its niche, but rather, the set in Gyro, Tox, SSwap, and SR. With this it is able to set up SR quite reliably against stall while also annoying teams and supporting Mgar by spreading tox.
Cynara
Banned deucer.
1. I never said TR was it main set, but its a niche set to consider
2. standard goth runs taunt so you really gotta get a play correct and if youre predicting goth to come in anyways, switching to another teammate is a better play
3. Zong sucks vs stall even w/ skill swap it gets foul played by sab on the rocks so it gets weakened very easily, I dont think its a consistent rocker at all
Just posting to highlight that we are not actually dead, and an update will be coming very soon (just waiting on one person to vote on the sheet!).
We will cover everything posted so far along with our own internal nominations, and our internal process has been improved a bit in order to make future updates that bit better and maybe even faster.
We have heard the notions that this thread is not updated fast enough, and we plan to take that to heart and do updates monthly rather than sporadically. Why monthly? Well, Ubers is generally a slower metagame than those affected by usage and/or tiering changes, and updating this thread too often leads to more inaccuracy than accuracy due to potential kneejerk changes giving us all more work than necessary.
Stay tuned!
We will cover everything posted so far along with our own internal nominations, and our internal process has been improved a bit in order to make future updates that bit better and maybe even faster.
We have heard the notions that this thread is not updated fast enough, and we plan to take that to heart and do updates monthly rather than sporadically. Why monthly? Well, Ubers is generally a slower metagame than those affected by usage and/or tiering changes, and updating this thread too often leads to more inaccuracy than accuracy due to potential kneejerk changes giving us all more work than necessary.
Stay tuned!
Alright so, here we are. CKW has joined the VR Council and took part in this update!
Update List:
Ho-Oh: moves up in A (above Primal Kyogre)
Arceus-Water: A- >> A (bottom of A)
Magearna: A- >> A (above Arceus-Water)
Gothitelle: A >> A- (top of A-)
Arceus-Flying: B+ >> A- (bottom of A-)
Mega Lucario: B >> B+ (above Lunala)
Deoxys-A: drops inside B+ (below Mega Sableye)
Naganadel: B+ >>> B (below Mega Mewtwo Y)
Arceus-Dark: B+ >> B (top of B)
Celesteela: B+ >> B- (above Skarmory)
Mega Diancie: B- >> C+ (top of C+)
Mega Tyranitar: B- >> C+ (above Shuckle)
Dialga: C+ >> C (below Palkia)
Dawn Wings Necrozma: C+ >> C- (below Darkrai)
Tapu Koko: Unranked >> C- (above Aegislash)
Bronzong: Unranked >> C- (above Mega Metagross)
Alolan Muk: C >> Unranked
The spreadsheet for reasonings is here. There were a couple of topics that came up when doing this update that didn't make it in, and I think there could be some discussion in this thread about the possibilities.
First, you may have noticed in the sheet that Marshadow and Yveltal were noted by some to not quite fit their current rank, but not good enough to rise or fall to the next (S / A+ respectively). This led to the idea of S- coming back in order to fit the two of them. This was done quite a while ago in an Ubers VR that I forget and ended up being removed shortly after. I'm of the opinion that it is fine for S- to exist when it suits the thread, and removed when it isn't, rather than make a big deal about it coming and going. What about you guys?
Secondly, The Trap God brought up an interesting nomination that we lacked the time to properly discuss, and it may be better discussed here. It was the idea that suicide leads in USM have taken a big hit in effectiveness due to the buff of hazard removal options across the tier. His idea was to raise Cloyster, which he believes is the best one, and all the others should drop. He plans to make a detailed post on this later.
That's it for this update. As noted in my earlier post, we will be updating this thread on a monthly basis, so we expect to look out for nominations for 3 of the weeks, and spend the 4th preparing the update with internal nominations and the sheets.
Update List:
Ho-Oh: moves up in A (above Primal Kyogre)
Arceus-Water: A- >> A (bottom of A)
Magearna: A- >> A (above Arceus-Water)
Gothitelle: A >> A- (top of A-)
Arceus-Flying: B+ >> A- (bottom of A-)
Mega Lucario: B >> B+ (above Lunala)
Deoxys-A: drops inside B+ (below Mega Sableye)
Naganadel: B+ >>> B (below Mega Mewtwo Y)
Arceus-Dark: B+ >> B (top of B)
Celesteela: B+ >> B- (above Skarmory)
Mega Diancie: B- >> C+ (top of C+)
Mega Tyranitar: B- >> C+ (above Shuckle)
Dialga: C+ >> C (below Palkia)
Dawn Wings Necrozma: C+ >> C- (below Darkrai)
Tapu Koko: Unranked >> C- (above Aegislash)
Bronzong: Unranked >> C- (above Mega Metagross)
Alolan Muk: C >> Unranked
The spreadsheet for reasonings is here. There were a couple of topics that came up when doing this update that didn't make it in, and I think there could be some discussion in this thread about the possibilities.
First, you may have noticed in the sheet that Marshadow and Yveltal were noted by some to not quite fit their current rank, but not good enough to rise or fall to the next (S / A+ respectively). This led to the idea of S- coming back in order to fit the two of them. This was done quite a while ago in an Ubers VR that I forget and ended up being removed shortly after. I'm of the opinion that it is fine for S- to exist when it suits the thread, and removed when it isn't, rather than make a big deal about it coming and going. What about you guys?
Secondly, The Trap God brought up an interesting nomination that we lacked the time to properly discuss, and it may be better discussed here. It was the idea that suicide leads in USM have taken a big hit in effectiveness due to the buff of hazard removal options across the tier. His idea was to raise Cloyster, which he believes is the best one, and all the others should drop. He plans to make a detailed post on this later.
That's it for this update. As noted in my earlier post, we will be updating this thread on a monthly basis, so we expect to look out for nominations for 3 of the weeks, and spend the 4th preparing the update with internal nominations and the sheets.
So I spent a brief moment looking over the Pokemon ranked in S, and they not only excel in offensive roles but they also hard check a number of important threats. Marshadow is a great offensive powerhouse indeed but it doesn't provide too much defensive utility as the three Pokemon in S rank do... maybe except offensively checking Arceus-Normal (which always runs anti-marshadow set these days). I personally think A+ is the place for Marshadow and I don't see much reason for it to fit in S any time soon. The pokemon isn't really versatile outsides just attacking. Although it is a must-prepare threat the walls that stop Marshadow (aka fairyceus / zyg-c) are very common and it is not like a team has to dedicate a wall just to deal with this Pokemon.
Yeah I commonly hear about suicide lead taking a big hit after massive Defog release generation in Discord and agree Cloyster should rise because it has so many exclusive traits as hazard lead (offensive presence against certain mons / breaking sash / offensive tspikes user). The only objection I have against this idea is that Excadrill can stay where it is instead of dropping to lower rank. Yes it definitely sucks because of arc formes and stuff but threatening one of the most common SR users in pdon and defensive DM as well as having mold breaker differentiates it a lot from cloyster imo.
I feel like this thing should be place higher. It has like infinite coverage / speed tier / the highest spa in the game and it can threaten pretty much any team (Defensively it is easily dropped by marsh and yveltal but they are just good revenge killers in general). Pretty much MMY is the only CM user that can bypass blobs and magearna atm while having great matchup vs. offense. Also this thing poses much more threat than naganadel / mega gyarados for obvious reasons so yeah, I think MMY can be placed higher or possibly go to B+?
With the popularity of Overheat Primal Groudon, a niche as a defensive check to said threat is pretty much gone. Also every Marshadow I see are Life Orb, meaning it mostly carries HP Ice. SD on webs is another reason that this 'mon is considered to be viable but I think running something liike SD pdon / SD dusk is objectively better. The most frustrating thing I experience while I tested with this pokemon is being set up by mence (sub mence sets up on z-fly lando) and its inability to 2HKO most physical attackers in the tier barring pdon / dusk / marsh diminishes its efficiency as a swithch-in to said threats. This thing should drop, possibly to lower C or C-.
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Edit: yeah, after reading magsy post I think that if S- was to be created, it would be better with Yveltal/Marshadow/Mega Gengar/Xerneas than only the first two. Thinking better, that's what would be better by me, but S- with one or two mons would be my last option.
I don't see a problem with a S- tier by itself, but I don't think this is the moment to create it. In my opinion, Marshadow is not a subrank above Xerneas and Mega Gengar right now, so it would basically be just Yveltal alone there with 3 different S rank for just 3 Pokémon. If most people do think that Marsh should, then S- is fine by me.
Cloyster should be the highest suicide lead for sure (been saying that even at the end of SM), it is the only one that can really pressure most teams instead of just putting hazards and sitting there. Excadrill can kinda do that, but not to the same extent, since it can't boost itself, and its STAB has a common immunity. Like DMDW said, I'm fine if Excadrill stays on the same rank since it does have different qualities than Cloyster like SR and the matchup against Dusk Mane, but Deoxys-S should go down (not counting Smeargle since it is a suicide lead for a totally different type of team).
B -> Higher on B/B+: bottom of B+
At +1 this thing really does not have switch-ins if you don't know what coverage it runs (but Fire Blast + Ice Beam pretty much covers everything), and it is not that hard to setup with this when it forces so many switches. Being one of the most vulnerable Pokémon on the tier to priority is bad, but so is Deoxys-A, and I think that being able to stay more than one turn on the field after using its STAB, being able to setup and dealing better with Dusk Mane to balance out the "lack" of immediate power (Mewtwo Y still is damn strong even without setup) and the better matchup against Primal Groudon enough to make them the same rank.
C -> Lower C/C-: C-
I don't like this thing. The analisys says that it is supposed to check Pdon, Ho-Oh, Marshadow, Mega Lucario, Tyranitar, Excadrill, and Swords Dance Arceus formes, but Primal Groudon runs a lot more special moves than before, Marshadow almost always has HP Ice now, Excadrill is not the main suicide lead anymore, and we don't have many SD Arceus formes now (and all of those things are already checked by a much better Pokémon in Zygarde-C). It also isn't a good SR setter since it doesn't beat Deffogers and lacks recovery. You can see the niches of C+ Pokémon like Shuckle setting Webs multiple times and Ditto as a revenge killer, but Lando lacks that, and C Pokémon like Kyogre, being matchup dependant as it is, still can destroy a lot of stall teams.
I don't see a problem with a S- tier by itself, but I don't think this is the moment to create it. In my opinion, Marshadow is not a subrank above Xerneas and Mega Gengar right now, so it would basically be just Yveltal alone there with 3 different S rank for just 3 Pokémon. If most people do think that Marsh should, then S- is fine by me.
Cloyster should be the highest suicide lead for sure (been saying that even at the end of SM), it is the only one that can really pressure most teams instead of just putting hazards and sitting there. Excadrill can kinda do that, but not to the same extent, since it can't boost itself, and its STAB has a common immunity. Like DMDW said, I'm fine if Excadrill stays on the same rank since it does have different qualities than Cloyster like SR and the matchup against Dusk Mane, but Deoxys-S should go down (not counting Smeargle since it is a suicide lead for a totally different type of team).
At +1 this thing really does not have switch-ins if you don't know what coverage it runs (but Fire Blast + Ice Beam pretty much covers everything), and it is not that hard to setup with this when it forces so many switches. Being one of the most vulnerable Pokémon on the tier to priority is bad, but so is Deoxys-A, and I think that being able to stay more than one turn on the field after using its STAB, being able to setup and dealing better with Dusk Mane to balance out the "lack" of immediate power (Mewtwo Y still is damn strong even without setup) and the better matchup against Primal Groudon enough to make them the same rank.
I don't like this thing. The analisys says that it is supposed to check Pdon, Ho-Oh, Marshadow, Mega Lucario, Tyranitar, Excadrill, and Swords Dance Arceus formes, but Primal Groudon runs a lot more special moves than before, Marshadow almost always has HP Ice now, Excadrill is not the main suicide lead anymore, and we don't have many SD Arceus formes now (and all of those things are already checked by a much better Pokémon in Zygarde-C). It also isn't a good SR setter since it doesn't beat Deffogers and lacks recovery. You can see the niches of C+ Pokémon like Shuckle setting Webs multiple times and Ditto as a revenge killer, but Lando lacks that, and C Pokémon like Kyogre, being matchup dependant as it is, still can destroy a lot of stall teams.
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Darkceus should be higher, like top of B+ or bottom of A-. I don't care enough to make a long elaborate argument, but apparently neither did the council (with 4 abstains, two people essentially saying nothing, and only one guy making an argument for a drop, simply stunning work here guys). Anyway, being the one support Arceus form that's not trapped by Goth/Gengar gives it a pretty big niche, especially on stall teams. Dark typing is also really solid imo, there's a lot more Psychics running around this metagame and it's one of the only Ghost resists in the whole tier, as well as resisting Dark and letting it run just Judgement without worrying about immunities. I guess Taunt/Toxic Yveltal is annoying but you do outspeed and Darkceus is probably not your only check to that anyway (especially, again, on stall teams where you're gonna be running a cleric that checks Yveltal anyway like Blissey/Magearna). It can't counter as many things as Waterceus/Groundceus can and be as much of a glue to teams like those mons are, but that's already reflected in their higher rankings here. I think Darceus is a mon that rewards you for your team already covering the stuff that Groundceus/Waterceus does.
mags
Banned deucer.
With s- rank idk if now is the right time for it. Personally I still see marsh/mgar at the same level as ygod and maybe xern butttttt idk. If I was making my own vb rankings with s- rank it would have ygod/marsh/mgar (maybe xern) and then obvi pdon at S+ and duskmane at S. Do you really want to make another rank just so pdon/duskmane are above every other mon by at least a sub rank BUT to also include things like ygod in s rank of some form? If you were to go with what I said it would also leave 2 mons in A+ rank so it doesn't really make sense and to leave marsh/mgar/xern in a+ but give ygod s- seems wack also since theres 3 s ranks and only 3 mons. I still think the best thing is to drop ygod to top of A+ and my reasonings are the same. Duskmane to me is clearly at least 1 subrank higher than ygod/marsh/mgar/xern in viability while ygod seems better than marsh/mgar/xern but not to the point where it's 1 subrank above them.
Another thing I'd like to note is idk whether this would warrant mgar to move above marsh/xern in A+ or warrant it to stay below them but as far as I can tell and all the people I've been talking 2 mgar has the highest skill ceiling out of probably every mon besides pdon. What I mean by that is the higher skilled the user is that has mgar the more work its gonna put in while if the user is not skillful at all it's most likely gonna put in less work than some of the easier mons to use like a marsh or xern. I'm just wondering if being harder to use would keep it back on vb or the ability to put in more work IF u are very skilled would warrant it to move up.
Another thing I'd like to note is idk whether this would warrant mgar to move above marsh/xern in A+ or warrant it to stay below them but as far as I can tell and all the people I've been talking 2 mgar has the highest skill ceiling out of probably every mon besides pdon. What I mean by that is the higher skilled the user is that has mgar the more work its gonna put in while if the user is not skillful at all it's most likely gonna put in less work than some of the easier mons to use like a marsh or xern. I'm just wondering if being harder to use would keep it back on vb or the ability to put in more work IF u are very skilled would warrant it to move up.
Well after overall success with most of my noms (Ghostceus will go up though I just have to get good soon), I'm back with my special opinions.
1. Why would we keep Sticky Web in high viability when defog is so rampant?
Sticky web is a force to be messed with, as both users (Shuckle and Smeargle) are capable of setting up webs and rocks with efficiency. This hazard can turn mediocre mons (insert Ghostceus here) into MASSIVE threats and sweepers (SD Ghostceus). This was used in multiple explanations for noms by the Ubers head people and stuff. Not to mention multiple times it was used as a way to promote Mega Lucario to B+, saying in Webs it was "a massive threat". Once again to back up the argument that it turns reg mons to fucking power houses, lil old not for long B- Ghostceus is also said to become "a moster in webs", only really stopped by scarf Yveltal and the rare scarf Marshadow with an SD up.
2. Why do we run webs when Scarf Yveltal is a mon that is quick, immune to webs, has access to defog, and is everywhere?
If a Scarf Yveltal defogs on a good web team (assuming it isn't on the setter) then it's dead. So now that a fast mon is eliminated, a threat is gone. And now their fastest mon is also gone, letting your slower hard hitting threats (and hopefully ghostceus if you aren't a trash player) are open to deal damage, yes, with less speed, but yes, with less threats on the opponents side.
3. Which setter?
WHY GEE JOLLY GEE LITTLE BOY WE GOT A DISCUSSION ON OUR HANDS! Long story short this question will remain unanswered for a bit, and frankly both Smeargle and Shuckle have their benefits. Smeargle is straight up shut down by taunt, while Shuckle has mental herb. Smeargle has 2 hindering statuses, both could let it set up multiple hazards if used effectively, but remains shut down by taunt. On the other hand Shuckle has utility encore to lock set up sweepers or removers into an unoptimal move. Both have a way of decreasing the opponents speed, in Nuzzle for Smeargle and Rock Tomb for Shuckle, although the superior is by far on Smeargles side here. Shuckle can actually cripple down walls for the rest of the team though, with toxic. This Smeargle can't do. Personally I would like to see more people elaborate on this so we have a better final designation by the end of the month. Trust me, I will be helping too and when one of my webs teams do really good, they will be on my signature.
(btw see my hype Bulky Offense team down below in my signature it has Chinese Don and it is fun and good it peaked at #32 on ladder was ggs)
Yes and no. Personally I'd like to see Cloyster rise, as (if used correctly) it can get tspikes up, spikes up, and it can threaten the opponent if running shell smash, and it can rapid spin (lol one of 2 decent spinners in Ubers). This thing is on the rise in usage and viability, and I would like to see it rapid spin its way there. But there is something I want to keep in viability; ONE user with Sticky Web. Multiple debates for this topic, so let me take my stand.
1. Why would we keep Sticky Web in high viability when defog is so rampant?
Sticky web is a force to be messed with, as both users (Shuckle and Smeargle) are capable of setting up webs and rocks with efficiency. This hazard can turn mediocre mons (insert Ghostceus here) into MASSIVE threats and sweepers (SD Ghostceus). This was used in multiple explanations for noms by the Ubers head people and stuff. Not to mention multiple times it was used as a way to promote Mega Lucario to B+, saying in Webs it was "a massive threat". Once again to back up the argument that it turns reg mons to fucking power houses, lil old not for long B- Ghostceus is also said to become "a moster in webs", only really stopped by scarf Yveltal and the rare scarf Marshadow with an SD up.
2. Why do we run webs when Scarf Yveltal is a mon that is quick, immune to webs, has access to defog, and is everywhere?
If a Scarf Yveltal defogs on a good web team (assuming it isn't on the setter) then it's dead. So now that a fast mon is eliminated, a threat is gone. And now their fastest mon is also gone, letting your slower hard hitting threats (and hopefully ghostceus if you aren't a trash player) are open to deal damage, yes, with less speed, but yes, with less threats on the opponents side.
3. Which setter?
WHY GEE JOLLY GEE LITTLE BOY WE GOT A DISCUSSION ON OUR HANDS! Long story short this question will remain unanswered for a bit, and frankly both Smeargle and Shuckle have their benefits. Smeargle is straight up shut down by taunt, while Shuckle has mental herb. Smeargle has 2 hindering statuses, both could let it set up multiple hazards if used effectively, but remains shut down by taunt. On the other hand Shuckle has utility encore to lock set up sweepers or removers into an unoptimal move. Both have a way of decreasing the opponents speed, in Nuzzle for Smeargle and Rock Tomb for Shuckle, although the superior is by far on Smeargles side here. Shuckle can actually cripple down walls for the rest of the team though, with toxic. This Smeargle can't do. Personally I would like to see more people elaborate on this so we have a better final designation by the end of the month. Trust me, I will be helping too and when one of my webs teams do really good, they will be on my signature.
(btw see my hype Bulky Offense team down below in my signature it has Chinese Don and it is fun and good it peaked at #32 on ladder was ggs)
Gothitelle to B-
My reason is because it does very little that other mons do not do better so is vastly overshadowed by them and as a result, very underused.
To trap mons you use Mgar, to be a wall you use lugia, blissey and the like so I cannot understand why Gothitelle is at the rank it currently is.
My reason is because it does very little that other mons do not do better so is vastly overshadowed by them and as a result, very underused.
To trap mons you use Mgar, to be a wall you use lugia, blissey and the like so I cannot understand why Gothitelle is at the rank it currently is.
Mgar and gothitelle are differant mons that accomplish differant things. Gothitelle is capable of trapping support arceus forms and making them struggle to death. Gothitelle mainly just beats passive mons that might be a problem in the game.
Katy
Banned deucer.
Goth is fine where it is right now to be honest. Mega gengar traps other things than Gothitelle and since supportive Arceus variants still runing around like Fairyceus it trap these and wear them down. I see honestly no reason at all to drop Gothitelle as it is still a potent mon in the metagame even tho the metagame shifted a bit more towards offense again imho from what i see at least. Goths low usage has nothing to do with the viability itself. And it recently dropped in the last VR update anyway. And I personally dont see it lower than this.
To my experience, Gothitelle influenced me to play different not to lose my support arceus to her. And I also know from other people that they also had here and there their experiences with this threat.
Gothitelle shouldnt drop.
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