Resource USM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread

[Guard]

A few remarks after the update...

1. I feel Xern's and Ygod's ranking is not properly reflected. If you take a look at the rank A+, you see that it consists of Xern, Marsh, M-gar, Megamence and Zygarde-C. I know that Xern is at the top but I think that doesn't reflect Xern's rank properly. It is way better than all of those.I know that Dusk Mane and Pdon are ubiquitous but do they really check Xern that good?

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 224-264 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 223-263 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defensive Pdon can't switch in at all. Xerneas always carries either HP Ground or Focus Blast...

252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 288-339 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Max attack Pdon never OHKO's Xern, not even after Stealth Rock.
So the point here is that Xerneas will, most of the time, beat Pdon 1v1 because no good player will let Xerneas take damage prior to Geomancy'ing and will always exploit chances to execute a free Geomancy. And most impotantly, Pdon is quite easy to whittle down to the range of either HP Ground or Focus Blast.

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 196-231 (49.2 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Dusk Mane can't swich in to Focus Blast. Although it limits Xeneas way more than Pdon, no good player will Geomancy if a healthy Dusk is on the other side. Xern players can effectively circumvent around defensive Dusk with Pdon/Ygod/M-Gar. All of those are paired a lot with Xern and are extremely viable.

Offensive variants are not too bulky and will never be able to switch to Xern.

+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 211-249 (62.9 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 202-238 (60.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 269-317 (80.2 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So the conclusion is that nothing can switch into Geo-Xern except the rare Assault Vest/Shuca Berry Mage or Dusk. This extreme limitation to teambuiling that Xerneas brings should warrant it a spot higher than A+

I get the fact that S rank would be too much. So my suggestion is to make an S- rank just like in OU and put both Xern and Ygod in it (Ygod at the top) because Ygod is not at the level of Dusk-mane. Defensive variants are pretty passive for an S mon and offensive variants are too frial. If you look at Dusk-mane's offensive set, it is right away more threathening than Ygod's and defensively Dusk's just stunning. Dusk and Ygod shouldn't be the same rank.

So Ygod and Xern to S-
Think about it...

2. Agree with the Darkceus rise.
3. Agree with the MMY rise. A lot more threathening than all of the mons in its rank
4. Agree with the Mega-Diancie drop. It's just not good in Ubers.
5. Agree with the Lando-T drop. Heavily outclassed by Zy in everything it does.

 

[TayyibZ]

- Yveltal: Top of S
With Pdon still being so popular these days, DM has still been a great counter to Xerneas and Magearna, but it is having some trouble. Yveltal, the only other mon in the S tier, can 2 shot Pdon with a life orb boosted dark pulse. Also, it is one of, if not the best, counter to all Necrozma forms. Then you have Marshadow and Gengar, both of which are easily slain by Oblivion Wing and Dark Pulse/Sucker Punch, respectively.

- 4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar-Mega: 398-468 (152.4 - 179.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 175-208 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 316-374 (94.3 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 230-275 (57.7 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 338-400 (100.8 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 374-445 (116.5 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 238-281 (37.4 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Just shows that, even against the monster itself, it can do damage).

Even against steel types, it has both Heat Wave and Focus Blast.

- 252 SpA Life Orb Yveltal Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 354-421 (100.5 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Yveltal Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 177-211 (48.6 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

In short, I think Yveltal has become much better since the new Necrozma forms came. Since it got promoted from A+ to S, a lot of people agree. Though I think it needs another boost.

 

[pooyou123456789q]

- Yveltal: Top of S
With Pdon still being so popular these days, DM has still been a great counter to Xerneas and Magearna, but it is having some trouble. Yveltal, the only other mon in the S tier, can 2 shot Pdon with a life orb boosted dark pulse. Also, it is one of, if not the best, counter to all Necrozma forms. Then you have Marshadow and Gengar, both of which are easily slain by Oblivion Wing and Dark Pulse/Sucker Punch, respectively.

- 4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar-Mega: 398-468 (152.4 - 179.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 175-208 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 316-374 (94.3 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 230-275 (57.7 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 338-400 (100.8 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 374-445 (116.5 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 238-281 (37.4 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Just shows that, even against the monster itself, it can do damage).

Even against steel types, it has both Heat Wave and Focus Blast.

- 252 SpA Life Orb Yveltal Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 354-421 (100.5 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Yveltal Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 177-211 (48.6 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

In short, I think Yveltal has become much better since the new Necrozma forms came. Since it got promoted from A+ to S, a lot of people agree. Though I think it needs another boost.

Gonna disagree on this one. While the popularity of DM is great for Yveltal, basically every other meta trend goes against it. Most P-Don are carrying Overheat nowadays, and even defensive varrients always OHKO after rocks. Ultra Necrozma is still very popular, and Yveltal is killed by Stone Edge if it assumes its DM. People are pairing it with Psychic Terrain more offten now, which allows it to always beat Yveltal unless it’s scarfed. Mag is finding its way onto most balance teams now, and Yveltal can’t get past it unless you use Heat Wave, which is incredibly hard to fit. TBH I’m leaning more towards a drop than a raise(though I wouldn’t do either).

 

[Guard]

Gonna disagree on this one. While the popularity of DM is great for Yveltal, basically every other meta trend goes against it. Most P-Don are carrying Overheat nowadays, and even defensive varrients always OHKO after rocks. Ultra Necrozma is still very popular, and Yveltal is killed by Stone Edge if it assumes its DM. People are pairing it with Psychic Terrain more offten now, which allows it to always beat Yveltal unless it’s scarfed. Mag is finding its way onto most balance teams now, and Yveltal can’t get past it unless you use Heat Wave, which is incredibly hard to fit. TBH I’m leaning more towards a drop than a raise(though I wouldn’t do either).

Actually Heat Wave is very easy to fit in its specs/scarf/LO set. Are there any moves that have more usefulness? A set with Dark Pulse, Oblivion Wing, Heat Wave and U-turn/Knock Off/Taunt on its LO set is basic. On a Specs set you always run U-turn and on a Scarf set Foul Play. Heat wave is quite easy to fit in on any offensive set.

 

[pooyou123456789q]

Actually Heat Wave is very easy to fit in its specs/scarf/LO set. Are there any moves that have more usefulness? A set with Dark Pulse, Oblivion Wing, Heat Wave and U-turn/Knock Off/Taunt on its LO set is basic. On a Specs set you always run U-turn and on a Scarf set Foul Play. Heat wave is quite easy to fit in on any offensive set.

Running Heat Wave means you can’t run Sucker Punch, so you can’t beat Ultra Necrozma or revenge kill. Scarf Heat Wave can’t even 2HKO after rocks.

 

[Guard]

Running Heat Wave means you can’t run Sucker Punch, so you can’t beat Ultra Necrozma or revenge kill. Scarf Heat Wave can’t even 2HKO after rocks.

Can't you run sucker punch on the fourth moveslot? Instead of U-turn/Knock Off

 

[Vengeance417]

Can't you run sucker punch on the fourth moveslot? Instead of U-turn/Knock Off

Taunt, Knock Off, and U-turn provide way more utility for Yveltal than Heat Wave, which only really hits Magearna and nothing else notable other than Ferrothorn, but its STABs hit that neutrally anyways.

 

[Guard]

Taunt, Knock Off, and U-turn provide way more utility for Yveltal than Heat Wave, which only really hits Magearna and nothing else notable other than Ferrothorn, but its STABs hit that neutrally anyways.

Hitting Magearna is a big thing for Yveltal

 

[Lotus]

So here's my perspective on Yveltal's moveset, assuming you run offensive variant:

* Dark Pulse is mandatory because it rhymes with Dank Pulse because of the damage output in general,
* Oblivion Wing lets you combat SR / LO damage and chips you take from support arc formes,

and...

* Taunt is much useful than you may think. In offensive teams Yveltal does great job pressuring Defog users with Taunt and its strong attacks and especially if you run webs Yveltal's Taunt becomes very important. Shutting down blobs and Ferrothorn are another huge thing.
* U-turn proves to be a great move over here because of the number of switches Yveltal forces in general and especially if it is paired with Mega Gengar Arceus-Fairy has to think twice before trying to come in and stomach Dark Pulse. That is not to mention that Yveltal can pivot against predicted switch when Magearna comes in and send in something like pdon and I think this is objectively a better way to punish Magearna than having to predict the switch and hit it with Heat Wave (which doesn't even 2HKO without prior damage).
* Knock Off makes Magearna 10x easier to wear down, trust me. Removing Leftovers from Magearna about halves the number of times it can switch into stuff like xern or ybird afterwards and even outsides that it is another way to dent & cripple blobs and deal a nuke damage to Ho-oh which avoids 2HKO from all other moves.
* ... and at this point forgoing Sucker Punch isn't the wisest decision when dm and ultra necro are so prevalent.

So yeah, unless you like, don't run pdon and your entirety of the team has no way whatsoever to wear down Magearna, you can force yourself to fit Heat Wave, but it is just inferior to other moves. Specs might have a moveslot for Heat Wave but that's about it.

--

This is VR thread after all so let me nom something to make this post a little more meaningful.

(currently at bottom of A-) to somewhere lower down B

Frankly I don't understand majority of VR council's reasoning for promoting this 'mon. My thought is that this 'mon should be somewhere below Arceus-Dark which is around B rank, or promote Arceus-Dark. I will go over reasonings for VR council:

So yeah I was thinking about it and... SR weak sucks. Yeah it does most things well in theory and fitting duskmane checks isn't impossible. But considering how weak it is before boosting in combination with the SR weak (ho-oh and yveltal doesn't have the same issue) means it will just sit around spamming recovery to get out of KO range from things like Marsh early-mid game. For me it needs hazards off to be dangerous which you can say about Ho-oh/Yveltal as well but these mons actually deal instant damage. So I think it should stay

This is something I agree with. I am not the biggest fan of support arc forme that is weak to Stealth Rock because the fact that you are running Arceus-Flying means you are running a defogger that is not an arc forme, probably something like random bird or Giratina-O which are either much unreliable with matchup vs SR users or have limited longevity. Marshadow 2HKOes flycues with spectral with rocks up and ideally marsh won't be wearing itself down without Life Orb without getting SR up or until something is in KO range.

I'm honestly not sure. Its about as much of a Pdon pivot as Yveltal is, and both of them get owned by Overheat. A rise to like the top of B+ seems better than have it fighting the other A- mons, because I feel those are all slightly "better". If Arceus-Water / Magearna do leave A- then this is fine in A-.

The problem I have with this reasoning is that Arceus-Flying lacks a significant niche that differentiates itself from other 'mons. If we take a look at A- 'mons: goth is one of the two stag users, rayquaza is the only DD user that can actually break arc formes and can run mixed sets and shit, ultra necrozma has like infinite number of viable sets, gira-o can check every pdon variant except some crazy things like Eruption, ferrothorn compresses the role of toxic switch-in / spikes / arc forme check / ogre check, and pex is one of the only viable tspikes user / consistent marsh switch-in / source of infinite pp which comes handy against stall. Arceus-Flying, unlike these folks in A-, has one-dimentional use in refresh + cm which I believe to be highly outclassed by darkceus atm because darkceus actually does something else other than just sitting in the back and waiting for magearna to disappear, namely offensively checking ultra necroz / mewtwo which I believe to be far more valuable than flyceus' defensive presence.

Flyceus is nice. One of the few offensive Marshadow checks, is a pretty good soft answer to PDon and its ability to beat most Steel-types 1v1 not named SD Dusk Mane or Magearna shouldn't be overlooked. I can get behind a raise to A-.

This thing isn't a marsh check anymore if SR is up:

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Flying: 160-188 (36 - 42.3%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also I have seen people saying flyceus is a good offensive check to pdon in a similar vein as Yveltal but I really don't think that's the right idea. Yveltal actually 2HKOs almost every pdon and it can live a hit from rock polish pdon from full and revenge it with dark pulse + sucker. If you want to use an arc forme that can beat steel 1v1 use darkceus or just use goth lol.

I think this has enough potential to rise. Not that easy to go through stuff like magearna / celesteela etc but it can do some nice things. Bottom of A- is fine I think

Celesteela is set up on cm refresh unless it gasses flyceus user every time with sub predictions and the 'nice things' flyceus can do isn't worthy of A- imo due to the drawbacks I have mentioned earlier.

Needs solid dual dance dusk mane checks, but crushes spdef dusk mane and every other steel (except magearna and maybe celest). Also a really nice marshadow counter.

I mean if you want Marsh counter, use fairyceus instead... who runs gengar & marsh though

Seems fine, though you do take up an arc slot. idk how relevant that is though considering its probably better in most cases to not use arc at all these days loool

Again I think darkceus is better alternative as a cm + refresh and fairyceus is better as marsh check.

Yeah sounds good. Checks Marshadow and Yveltal. Sets up on Arceus every viable support Arceus forme, support Dusk Mane is a setup fodder. I think it sets up on every good steel apart from Magearna but lets not forget how good mag is rn. DD Dusk Mane checks are almost mandatory if you runnin Arceus-Flying. There are enough drawbacks to stop it from going higher than the mid-point of A- imo.

The underlined part applies to every arc formes with refresh + cm unless you pose a type disadvantage. Also this is one of the few reasonings that emphasize the importance to prepare for DM and speaking of that the opportunity cost of running a subpar arc forme and making the team vulnerable to already threatening DM isn't worth imo.


I'm not trying to correct anybody; I was fine with the last VR update for the most part but flyceus discussion wasn't the most appealing to me so I brought this up.

 

[Nayrz]

There are two things I completely disagree with. The first is the idea that Arceus-Flying is a bad Marshadow check if SR is up - there is an alternative spread of 252 HP / 156 Def / rest in Spe that avoids the 2HKO from LO Spectral after SR. This has the downside of being slower than Lucario / Diancie but if you want more Marshadow security on offense this is a very viable option.

The second is the notion that Arceus-Dark is a better CM Refresh user. This doesn't make any sense to me, and the usage of such a set compared to Arceus-Flying's appearances speaks for itself. It has severe problems against offensive teams due to Marshadow and Xerneas (much lesser problems for Arceus-Flying), and is far easier to shut down because it has a much worse typing for its role. What mons are capable of overpowering Arceus-Flying? Now compare that number (and the viability of those answers) to what shuts down CM Refresh Arceus-Dark. It isn't even close to being as good and I'd even say such a set isn't actually viable because it can struggle vs any kind of team.

darkceus actually does something else other than just sitting in the back and waiting for magearna to disappear, namely offensively checking ultra necroz / mewtwo

Doesn't it seem silly to suggest this when Ultra Necrozma and Mewtwo are A- / B (at its best in MMY) when Primal Groudon and Marshadow are S+ and A+ level threats that Arceus-Flying can do well against, AND are threatening to the builds it fits on? "Just use fairyceus" is also ignoring the compression and difference in role Arceus-Flying offers in comparison. It isn't even a proper argument.

While I was only a proponent for the raise if two other A- mons moved up, I still don't feel your arguments are good enough to drop it back down, let alone to B while putting Arceus-Dark above it.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Fairy Arceus A- --> B+
This thing is becoming less and less useful as time goes on. So many mons can take advantage of it including Dusk Mane, P-don, magearna, gengar, Ho-Oh, ferrothorn, toxapex, and so many others. Its niche as a rocker is slowly losing its value as Dusk Mane can do it while checking other things better.

 

[ChaosNemesis]

View attachment 103001 Fairy Arceus A- --> B+
This thing is becoming less and less useful as time goes on. So many mons can take advantage of it including Dusk Mane, P-don, magearna, gengar, Ho-Oh, ferrothorn, toxapex, and so many others. Its niche as a rocker is slowly losing its value as Dusk Mane can do it while checking other things better.

You know that you can use Fairceus with CM and Earth Power, right?

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

You know that you can use Fairceus with CM and Earth Power, right?

Yeah and Dusk Mane, Ferrothorn, and Ho-Oh still take +1 EP well (or are immune to it in Ho-Oh's case) and crushes u w/ a sunsteel strike/sacred fire/gyro ball. Meanwhile, u have xerneas doing the job of setup sweeping fairy better.

 

[The Vision]

the common steels or poisons that switch into it all lack defog which is a huge reason that sr fairyceus is good. you also threaten the common defoggers such as support arcs (with toxic) or gira/mence with judgment. arc fairy also has great defensive utility in checking S tier threats like yveltal and A+ tier threats like zyg c, mence, and marsh. it also has longevity because of recover which makes it a great sr setter and bulky pivot in long games. your statement that "dusk mane checks other things better" has no real value because all mons "check other certain things better" but things that dusk mane doesn't check that arc fairy does are marsh/ygod/zyg c and more.

if you're going to make a post comparing two pokemon and saying that one is outclassed, please make sure they actually play similar roles. for example, if xern didn't have access to geo but had stealth rock, you could make the argument that arceus fairy outclasses xern as a stealth rock setter since arc fairy has access to recover and better overall bulk so you can check things better while still playing the role of a stealth rock setter.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

the common steels or poisons that switch into it all lack defog which is a huge reason that sr fairyceus is good. you also threaten the common defoggers such as support arcs (with toxic) or gira/mence with judgment. arc fairy also has great defensive utility in checking S tier threats like yveltal and A+ tier threats like zyg c, mence, and marsh. it also has longevity because of recover which makes it a great sr setter and bulky pivot in long games. your statement that "dusk mane checks other things better" has no real value because all mons "check other certain things better" but things that dusk mane doesn't check that arc fairy does are marsh/ygod/zyg c and more.

if you're going to make a post comparing two pokemon and saying that one is outclassed, please make sure they actually play similar roles. for example, if xern didn't have access to geo but had stealth rock, you could make the argument that arceus fairy outclasses xern as a stealth rock setter since arc fairy has access to recover and better overall bulk so you can check things better while still playing the role of a stealth rock setter.

I said its ability to put rocks is its niche and why u use it. It doesnt do other things as well as other mons in the tier. It cant setup like Xern and cant defog like giratina or other arceus. I think I shoulda made that clearer.

 

[byulharang]

Mewtwo -> C+ to at least A-
This is my first but I feel like Mewtwo is heavily underrated as its coverage is pretty insane and it can hit everything in the tier. I put Mewtwo over MMY because Mewtwo should always run life orb which makes its damage output higher than MMY and saves you a mega slot. The bulk is pretty much the same and the speed increase is minor as Mewtwo's speed tier is already high asf which makes it a great revenge killer. It can be used as a wall breaker with psystrike and taunt or you could swap focus blast over taunt (not really a reason to unless you want to hit Dialga, Pdon, Dialga and Darkrai harder). I feel like it should jump all the way to A- because imo it has a stronger offensive presence without setup than all the mons in A- to C+. You could slap this on a offense team and just click buttons and put holes in teams. Thats p much it but here is some calcs.

Calcs

Output
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Water: 196-231 (44.1 - 52%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 195-230 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 160-188 (39.7 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Focus Blast vs. 168 HP / 36 SpD Groudon-Primal: 203-239 (53 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Kyogre-Primal: 239-282 (59.1 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 248-292 (74 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 181-214 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Ultra: 296-351 (88.3 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 253-298 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal: 294-348 (64.4 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 437-515 (61.2 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Input
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mewtwo: 247-292 (69.9 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 276-326 (78.1 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (calc'd neutral nature on lefties set)
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 301-355 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 205-243 (58 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 273-322 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mewtwo: 284-336 (80.4 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Set

Mewtwo @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Psystrike
- Fire Blast
- Taunt

 

[Lugia Proto]

Mewtwo -> C+ to at least A-
This is my first but I feel like Mewtwo is heavily underrated as its coverage is pretty insane and it can hit everything in the tier. I put Mewtwo over MMY because Mewtwo should always run life orb which makes its damage output higher than MMY and saves you a mega slot. The bulk is pretty much the same and the speed increase is minor as Mewtwo's speed tier is already high asf which makes it a great revenge killer. It can be used as a wall breaker with psystrike and taunt or you could swap focus blast over taunt (not really a reason to unless you want to hit Dialga, Pdon, Dialga and Darkrai harder). I feel like it should jump all the way to A- because imo it has a stronger offensive presence without setup than all the mons in A- to C+. You could slap this on a offense team and just click buttons and put holes in teams. Thats p much it but here is some calcs.

Calcs

Output
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Water: 196-231 (44.1 - 52%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 195-230 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 160-188 (39.7 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Focus Blast vs. 168 HP / 36 SpD Groudon-Primal: 203-239 (53 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Kyogre-Primal: 239-282 (59.1 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 248-292 (74 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 181-214 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Ultra: 296-351 (88.3 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 253-298 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal: 294-348 (64.4 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 437-515 (61.2 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Input
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mewtwo: 247-292 (69.9 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 276-326 (78.1 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (calc'd neutral nature on lefties set)
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 301-355 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 205-243 (58 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 273-322 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mewtwo: 284-336 (80.4 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Set

Mewtwo @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Psystrike
- Fire Blast
- Taunt

Well, this seems to be quite a large rise for a pokemon like mewtwo. It is a good mon, but this change is HUGE. I fell that these calcs are not really relevent, I mean those are pretty good, but other mons can do so, aswell. I mean, this is a change of 4 subranks. Replays would be very welcome in your post, and would make your argument a lot better.

 

[byulharang]

Well, this seems to be quite a large rise for a pokemon like mewtwo. It is a good mon, but this change is HUGE. I fell that these calcs are not really relevent, I mean those are pretty good, but other mons can do so, aswell. I mean, this is a change of 4 subranks. Replays would be very welcome in your post, and would make your argument a lot better.

I dont really save replays but here are some that I think sorta showcases mewtwo
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ubers-310999
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-615902841
I could find more but dont think I really need to. Also forgot to mention lele+mewtwo makes psystrike even more deadly. Also I dont think any mon in A- to C+ can do what mewtwo can as good as it does.

 

[pooyou123456789q]

Mewtwo -> C+ to at least A-
This is my first but I feel like Mewtwo is heavily underrated as its coverage is pretty insane and it can hit everything in the tier. I put Mewtwo over MMY because Mewtwo should always run life orb which makes its damage output higher than MMY and saves you a mega slot. The bulk is pretty much the same and the speed increase is minor as Mewtwo's speed tier is already high asf which makes it a great revenge killer. It can be used as a wall breaker with psystrike and taunt or you could swap focus blast over taunt (not really a reason to unless you want to hit Dialga, Pdon, Dialga and Darkrai harder). I feel like it should jump all the way to A- because imo it has a stronger offensive presence without setup than all the mons in A- to C+. You could slap this on a offense team and just click buttons and put holes in teams. Thats p much it but here is some calcs.

Calcs

Output
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Water: 196-231 (44.1 - 52%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 195-230 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 160-188 (39.7 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Focus Blast vs. 168 HP / 36 SpD Groudon-Primal: 203-239 (53 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Kyogre-Primal: 239-282 (59.1 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 248-292 (74 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 181-214 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Ultra: 296-351 (88.3 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 253-298 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal: 294-348 (64.4 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 437-515 (61.2 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Input
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mewtwo: 247-292 (69.9 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 276-326 (78.1 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (calc'd neutral nature on lefties set)
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 301-355 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 205-243 (58 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 273-322 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mewtwo: 284-336 (80.4 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Set

Mewtwo @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Psystrike
- Fire Blast
- Taunt

While I agree Mewtwo is better than half the shit in C+(who tf uses landot lmao), it's not even close to A-. Even B+ is pushing it. Right now, HO is the only archetype that it fits on, and most of the time they're trying to compress a shit ton of roles into very few team slots. Being Psychic really sucks, since you haze no defensive value and there's so much shit that resists/is immune to Psychic its not even funny. Sure, it has coverage, but so does a lot of things that HO would rather use. Why should I use this over Yveltal, who has actual defensive utility, better support options, and doesn't die to Marshadow.

 

[Katy]

Mewtwo -> C+ to at least A-
This is my first but I feel like Mewtwo is heavily underrated as its coverage is pretty insane and it can hit everything in the tier. I put Mewtwo over MMY because Mewtwo should always run life orb which makes its damage output higher than MMY and saves you a mega slot. The bulk is pretty much the same and the speed increase is minor as Mewtwo's speed tier is already high asf which makes it a great revenge killer. It can be used as a wall breaker with psystrike and taunt or you could swap focus blast over taunt (not really a reason to unless you want to hit Dialga, Pdon, Dialga and Darkrai harder). I feel like it should jump all the way to A- because imo it has a stronger offensive presence without setup than all the mons in A- to C+. You could slap this on a offense team and just click buttons and put holes in teams. Thats p much it but here is some calcs.

Calcs

Output
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Water: 196-231 (44.1 - 52%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 195-230 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 160-188 (39.7 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Focus Blast vs. 168 HP / 36 SpD Groudon-Primal: 203-239 (53 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Kyogre-Primal: 239-282 (59.1 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 248-292 (74 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 181-214 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Ultra: 296-351 (88.3 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 253-298 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal: 294-348 (64.4 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 437-515 (61.2 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Input
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mewtwo: 247-292 (69.9 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 276-326 (78.1 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (calc'd neutral nature on lefties set)
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 301-355 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 205-243 (58 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 273-322 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mewtwo: 284-336 (80.4 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Set

Mewtwo @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Psystrike
- Fire Blast
- Taunt

Hello, i kinda feel, your A- nom kinda really pushes it over the edge, while i agree, Mewtwo isnt a bad pokemon, but it has to deal with alot of A- to S rankers aka Yveltal and as I see decent amount of Scarfed Yveltals lately and also sash marshadow started to become popular it has to deal with alot of enemies. I kinda feel it (your nom) pushes it over the edge. I would more likely nom it to B- at the bottom of it. It also has trouble breaking thru mega Sableye which still has it's spot on more stall-ish archetype of teams: 252 SpA Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 90-107 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 17.7% chance to 3HKO
and in return: 0- Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 218-258 (61.4 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
since this mewtwo set lacks recover it loses 1v1 against Mega Sab.

I personally feel Mewtwo Normal better belongs - if it rises - to the bottom of B-

 

[Ropalme1914]

I disagree with a Mewtwo rise. Even though I said that Mega Mewtwo Y should rise, I don't think it is a super solid mon and should be bottom of B+, and that is the best forme of Mewtwo. Mewtwo lacks the better Speed tier of MMY which forces it to have a Speed tie with Mega Gengar and get outspeed by Deoxys-A, while also getting worn down way easier due to Life Orb recoil. Other Psychic-types also gives it a hard time, and saying that it has a better offensive presence than things like Deoxys-A, Mega Lucario, and Arceus-Ghost (which still is decent on webs due to spinblocking and being able to setup with SD) is something that I can't agree with. Yeah, it is better than Landorus-T, but Landorus-T should also drop. It is fine where it is, if offensive presence without setup meant that much, then Kyurem-W would be much higher.

 

[byulharang]

While I agree Mewtwo is better than half the shit in C+(who tf uses landot lmao), it's not even close to A-. Even B+ is pushing it. Right now, HO is the only archetype that it fits on, and most of the time they're trying to compress a shit ton of roles into very few team slots. Being Psychic really sucks, since you haze no defensive value and there's so much shit that resists/is immune to Psychic its not even funny. Sure, it has coverage, but so does a lot of things that HO would rather use. Why should I use this over Yveltal, who has actual defensive utility, better support options, and doesn't die to Marshadow.

If Mewtwo isnt A- its definitely B+ imo. HO role compression isnt even as bad as you're trying to perceive it to be. Mewtwo can take a neutral hit and the only stuff that resists Mewtwos psystrike are the few viable psychic type mons in the tier and few steels which are hit by fire blast. Yveltal isnt tied down to one set/role which Mewtwo pretty much is and I dont think those two are comparable. Although if you're using Ygod as a revenge killer I would opt Mewtwo over it on certain teams and Mewtwo beats Marshadow in a 1v1.

Hello, i kinda feel, your A- nom kinda really pushes it over the edge, while i agree, Mewtwo isnt a bad pokemon, but it has to deal with alot of A- to S rankers aka Yveltal and as I see decent amount of Scarfed Yveltals lately and also sash marshadow started to become popular it has to deal with alot of enemies. I kinda feel it (your nom) pushes it over the edge. I would more likely nom it to B- at the bottom of it. It also has trouble breaking thru mega Sableye which still has it's spot on more stall-ish archetype of teams: 252 SpA Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 90-107 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 17.7% chance to 3HKO
and in return: 0- Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 218-258 (61.4 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
since this mewtwo set lacks recover it loses 1v1 against Mega Sab.

I personally feel Mewtwo Normal better belongs - if it rises - to the bottom of B-

None of the A- to S rankers can 100% come in on mewtwo safely without getting worn down except for like Msab. For the only two out of "alot" you named Mewtwo has ice beam for Ygod which kills it if SR are up. I think scarf Ygod isn't as good as its LO and lefties variants in this meta and I haven't seen a sash Marsh since early sm as LO and z-move are better, more reliable sets. Tbh the only thing I think can 100% come in on Mewtwo safely is Msab but Mewtwo ideally isnt going to stay in as you could go into your lele or w/e mon to potentially force Msab out. Also the 4th move slot is really flexible as you can always run recover over taunt if you want the recovery.

I disagree with a Mewtwo rise. Even though I said that Mega Mewtwo Y should rise, I don't think it is a super solid mon and should be bottom of B+, and that is the best forme of Mewtwo. Mewtwo lacks the better Speed tier of MMY which forces it to have a Speed tier with Mega Gengar and get outspeed by Deoxys-A, while also getting worn down way easier due to Life Orb recoil. Other Psychic-types also gives it a hard time, and saying that it has a better offensive than things like Deoxys-A, Mega Lucario, and Arceus-Ghost (which still is decent on webs due to spinblocking and being able to setup with SD) is something that I can't agree with. Yeah, it is better than Landorus-T, but Landorus-T should also drop. It is fine where it is, if offensive presence without setup meant that much, then Kyurem-W would be much higher.

Idk why anyone would disagree with a Mewtwo rise as its very out of place in C+. Mewtwo is better than MMY as using Mewtwo over MMY keeps your mega slot and like I said the speed tier is minor. Its a speed tie with Mega Gengar but if its the hex set it lives a hex and if the Deo-A is a speed boosting ability it outspeeds MMY anyway and the best move it has to hit Mewtwo is knock which is a roll in Deo's favor but its still a roll. Also Mewtwo with LO or Specs do more damage than MMY anyway. You dont have to run LO as you can run specs and be just as fine. You could even run CM/Recover/Psystrike/Filler if you wanted to. Mega Lucario is countered by stuff like Arceus-Ground, Pdon, Zygarde-Complete, Mega Salamence, Ho-oh and a few more. Deoxys-A is countered by mons like Magearna, Cele and Lunala as well as checked by pretty much anything with priority (Ygod, Marsh, Arceus) as well as anything with scarf. Arc-Ghost is checked by Ygod, Marshadow, Zygarde-Complete and others. So yea I would definitely say Mewtwo is a bigger offensive presence than them and Mega Lucario and Arceus have to setup to even be a big threat (as I originally said without setup) which Mewtwo doesn't. Kyurem-W has its speed tier holding it down as its forced to run a choiced item to do much and even then when its locked into a move its easily worked around.
Well thats pretty much all I have to say and I still believe Mewtwo should get a rise, even if A- is too much it should definitely move to B+.

 

[pooyou123456789q]

If Mewtwo isnt A- its definitely B+ imo. HO role compression isnt even as bad as you're trying to perceive it to be. Mewtwo can take a neutral hit and the only stuff that resists Mewtwos psystrike are the few viable psychic type mons in the tier and few steels which are hit by fire blast. Yveltal isnt tied down to one set/role which Mewtwo pretty much is and I dont think those two are comparable. Although if you're using Ygod as a revenge killer I would opt Mewtwo over it on certain teams and Mewtwo beats Marshadow in a 1v1.


None of the A- to S rankers can 100% come in on mewtwo safely without getting worn down except for like Msab. For the only two out of "alot" you named Mewtwo has ice beam for Ygod which kills it if SR are up. I think scarf Ygod isn't as good as its LO and lefties variants in this meta and I haven't seen a sash Marsh since early sm as LO and z-move are better, more reliable sets. Tbh the only thing I think can 100% come in on Mewtwo safely is Msab but Mewtwo ideally isnt going to stay in as you could go into your lele or w/e mon to potentially force Msab out. Also the 4th move slot is really flexible as you can always run recover over taunt if you want the recovery.



Idk why anyone would disagree with a Mewtwo rise as its very out of place in C+. Mewtwo is better than MMY as using Mewtwo over MMY keeps your mega slot and like I said the speed tier is minor. Its a speed tie with Mega Gengar but if its the hex set it lives a hex and if the Deo-A is a speed boosting ability it outspeeds MMY anyway and the best move it has to hit Mewtwo is knock which is a roll in Deo's favor but its still a roll. Also Mewtwo with LO or Specs do more damage than MMY anyway. You dont have to run LO as you can run specs and be just as fine. You could even run CM/Recover/Psystrike/Filler if you wanted to. Mega Lucario is countered by stuff like Arceus-Ground, Pdon, Zygarde-Complete, Mega Salamence, Ho-oh and a few more. Deoxys-A is countered by mons like Magearna, Cele and Lunala as well as checked by pretty much anything with priority (Ygod, Marsh, Arceus) as well as anything with scarf. Arc-Ghost is checked by Ygod, Marshadow, Zygarde-Complete and others. So yea I would definitely say Mewtwo is a bigger offensive presence than them and Mega Lucario and Arceus have to setup to even be a big threat (as I originally said without setup) which Mewtwo doesn't. Kyurem-W has its speed tier holding it down as its forced to run a choiced item to do much and even then when its locked into a move its easily worked around.
Well thats pretty much all I have to say and I still believe Mewtwo should get a rise, even if A- is too much it should definitely move to B+.

I don't think any one disagrees on you with a Mewtwo rise. The only disagreement is on its inclusion in A-, which is were I start to consider Pokémon metagame defining. Mewtwo is simply not metagame defining.

 

[Ropalme1914]

Those arguments still did not convince me. All Deoxys-A runs Sp. Atk boosting nature, so yeah, it is relevant. Specs probably is a bad ideia since the thing that Mewtwo could have on its favor would be its coverage, but if you're locked on a move, you won't be able to abuse that. Also, being locked on a Psychic-type attack is horrible as we have both Yveltal and Dusk Mane Necrozma on S-tier. CM/Recover/Psystrike/Filler also looks like a bad thing to me since then you do have a lot of switch-ins. The difference between those Pokémon and Mewtwo is that, after they are boosted, they can OHKO things so they can clean late-game (Deoxys does not even needs to boost), while Mewtwo just gets a 2HKO os a lot of things, and can't do anything about that unless you run CM (and, like I said, LO Mewtwo lack longevity, so you do not have much setup opportunities, and Mewtwo Y does that better). The calc that you put on your other post are also made to looks like Mewtwo is better than it is, like Yveltal's Sucker Punch lacking LO, Xerneas not being boosted (Psystrike does 72% max, and Scarf Xerneas outspeeds you), assuming that Gengar's Hex is unboosted (even if it is a tie, Gengar sometimes is paired with Tspikes, it runs Shadow Ball on other sets, and you will get only one more attack anyway if there are not any hazard on the field and you get a low roll due to recoil), and Waterceus can just Recover on you due to that low 2HKO rate (tho you can argue that SR could be up). If you really look at those calcs, Mewtwo will take a hit most of the time, so yeah, Mewtwo is much easier KOed than you think. I could see a rise to B-, but I still think that C+ is better and that B+ is way too high for it.

 

[byulharang]

You can't late game sweep with those mons without taking out the threats to them first, which Mewtwo can do. I agree with those sets not being as good as the LO set but they still have their pros. That Yveltal calc is the lefties set as Mewtwo is obviously not living a LO sucker. Why would xern be boosted? Of course Mewtwo doesnt beat a geomancy boosted xerneas lol. Unless you are talking about a defense boosting nature which Xern still isnt coming in on a Mewtwo as its 2hko'd or forced to rest which is countered by taunt. It also cant geomancy up on Mewtwo as it can just taunt. Also if you're running scarf xern you aren't going to be bulky. Mewtwo vs Mgar is all based on a speed tie anyway and Mewtwo taunts the Waterceus and beats it 1v1. The point im trying to make is Mewtwo has close to no absolutely safe switchins and demands counterplay.