Resource USUM AG Viability Rankings

Time for my first AG post in ages.

View attachment 167355 Greninja & View attachment 167356 Cloyster to at least D

Greninja and Cloyster's niche should be pretty obvious. They are HO suicide leads. The fact that a trash lead like Slurpuff is ranked and Greninja and Cloyster aren't is unfathomable to me. This fact on its own should secure themselves a place in at least D, but let me break down the merits of these leads for the sake of completion.

Here's a list of viable suicide leads in AG:
1.
Smeargle (offers Sticky Web and Baton Pass strategies, and has the ability to cripple anything with Paralysis/Poison through Glare/Nuzzle/Toxic Thread)
2.
Excadrill (offers Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin and can cripple defoggers with Toxic and 1v1 a lot of them with Rock Tomb; also sets hazards against Stall)
3.
Deoxys-Speed (offers Stealth Rock, Spikes, Magic Coat, a fast Taunt and can 1v1 Magic Bounce with Skill Swap)
4.
Shuckle (offers Stealth Rock and Sticky Web and can cripple defoggers with Toxic or prevent setup with Encore)
5.
Slurpuff (umm, offers Sticky Web and can cripple stuff with Unburden Endeavor)

Now compare:
View attachment 167355 Greninja (offers Spikes, Toxic Spikes and a Taunt fast enough to prevent Arceus's defog. Can emergency spinblock with Shadow Sneak or do some meaningful chip with Ice Beam)
View attachment 167356 Cloyster (offers Spikes or Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin. Anti leads Smeargle, Deoxys-S, Excadrill and to an extent Shuckle, isn't passive and outright sweeps Baton Pass)

Greninja and Cloyster are the only viable lead Pokemon with Toxic Spikes in their arsenal, which offers different HO teambuilding strategies, since Toxic Spikes in particular pressures teams a lot, especially teams lacking Poisonceus and Mega Gengar. That directly gives them a niche nothing else has.

Greninja:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-882988840

Cloyster:
And fyi, cloyster/greninja HO is the only thing that got me into the top #3 of AG

Edit: Oops! Edited Slurpuff in, thanks for pointing out Banana...also noticed Scolipede is ranked. Is that because of its suicide lead set cuz I might as well add that too?
Scolipede is ranked because of it's suicide lead set because like the two pokemon you metioned, it offers spikes and tspikes and it can also cripple things with endeavor.
 
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So I'm gonna make a huge nom list, but they will be all focused around one playstyle: Trick Room. I'd like to briefly explain why TR is viable, and then get to the nominations.
So, IMO, theres three things needed to make TR viable: Setters, Abusers, and few common things that f*** it up.
Setters: arceus has access to Trick room, do I need to say more? I prefer arceus fairy, for good matchups against Mega Ray and Zygarde-C. Lunala, Necrozma-DM, and Stakataka (all fall under abusers), can also set it up.

Abusers: I mentioned lunala, necrozma-dm, and stakataka, but I think it's worthy of elaboration.
Lunala can set up a calm mind and throw off a powerful nuke with menacing Moonraze Maelstrom (hopefully i spelled that right), even OHKOing spdef ferrothorn. Psyshock and moongeist help too, and being able to set up TR in a pinch is noice.
Necrozma-DM can run a slight change to it's rock polish + SD set, specifically running weakness policy, sd, tr, and then 2 attacks. Similar as above, but hates being will-o-wisped. You could probably run a special set, but I dunno.
Stakataka: I've nommed this once, but it's probably a good time to elaborate. Gyro Ball picks up kills on a lot of fast pokemon, while stone edge and earthquake give excellent coverage. It can set up TR too. It can fix its crippling weakness to eq with air balloon, which allows for ballsy plays (as illustrated in this replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-886835219). With the right EV and IV spread, it can even get beast boost in attack rather than defense. It does hate being will-o-wisped tho.
Kyogre (primal or specs): Water spout, min speed, full spatk and hp. I think we all know how powerful a water spout is on scarf. Imagine that with specs or blue orb. And fast. Do I need to say more?
Things that F***it up:
Reverse trick room is rare, only really being viable with necrozma, and even then it's difficult to fit it in.
Slow tanks are dicks, but lunala or one of the others should be able to just muscle through it, and they aren't very common other than ferrothorn.
Really, there aren't a ton of viable slow pokemon in this meta. That would be what fucks this up.
So, clearly, TR is viable.
So now for nominations!
If you read the above, these should be clear.
Stakataka UR->D
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane shouldn't need a change, but its possible that it should be S- due to the mindgames w/ ultra burst and TR.
Lunala A- -> A
Kyogre (not primal) B- -> B
Primal Kyogre A- -> A
Arceus-Fairy A -> A+
Bleh. I'm going to take a break from pokemon now.
 
So I'm gonna make a huge nom list, but they will be all focused around one playstyle: Trick Room. I'd like to briefly explain why TR is viable, and then get to the nominations.
So, IMO, theres three things needed to make TR viable: Setters, Abusers, and few common things that f*** it up.
Setters: arceus has access to Trick room, do I need to say more? I prefer arceus fairy, for good matchups against Mega Ray and Zygarde-C. Lunala, Necrozma-DM, and Stakataka (all fall under abusers), can also set it up.

Abusers: I mentioned lunala, necrozma-dm, and stakataka, but I think it's worthy of elaboration.
Lunala can set up a calm mind and throw off a powerful nuke with menacing Moonraze Maelstrom (hopefully i spelled that right), even OHKOing spdef ferrothorn. Psyshock and moongeist help too, and being able to set up TR in a pinch is noice.
Necrozma-DM can run a slight change to it's rock polish + SD set, specifically running weakness policy, sd, tr, and then 2 attacks. Similar as above, but hates being will-o-wisped. You could probably run a special set, but I dunno.
Stakataka: I've nommed this once, but it's probably a good time to elaborate. Gyro Ball picks up kills on a lot of fast pokemon, while stone edge and earthquake give excellent coverage. It can set up TR too. It can fix its crippling weakness to eq with air balloon, which allows for ballsy plays (as illustrated in this replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-886835219). With the right EV and IV spread, it can even get beast boost in attack rather than defense. It does hate being will-o-wisped tho.
Kyogre (primal or specs): Water spout, min speed, full spatk and hp. I think we all know how powerful a water spout is on scarf. Imagine that with specs or blue orb. And fast. Do I need to say more?
Things that F***it up:
Reverse trick room is rare, only really being viable with necrozma, and even then it's difficult to fit it in.
Slow tanks are dicks, but lunala or one of the others should be able to just muscle through it, and they aren't very common other than ferrothorn.
Really, there aren't a ton of viable slow pokemon in this meta. That would be what fucks this up.
So, clearly, TR is viable.
So now for nominations!
If you read the above, these should be clear.
Stakataka UR->D
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane shouldn't need a change, but its possible that it should be S- due to the mindgames w/ ultra burst and TR.
Lunala A- -> A
Kyogre (not primal) B- -> B
Primal Kyogre A- -> A
Arceus-Fairy A -> A+
Bleh. I'm going to take a break from pokemon now.

There is only one nom in this that I strongly support and that is the stakataka to D nom

The first think we need to talk about when nomming stakataka is that it's air balloon set is the best mray check in the game (https://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-03/moveset/gen7anythinggoes-1760.txt: Look in mega rayquaza checks) able to reliably set up trick room and then kill with gyro ball after rocks. Stakataka can also check fairyceus (if not running will o wisp), ekiller, arceus ground, and unecro and many more pokemon

Once stakataka gets it's first kill it can also proceed to sweep because to the boosts it gets from beast boost and it can easily snowball through a team

Stakataka's biggest weakness is that it gets walled by a ton of mons commonly run on balance teams such as support arcues, ferrothron (if you don't run superpower) and defensive dusk man but once you remove those threats stakataka can come in and clean.

If you want to build around stakataka you may need to have at least one other trick room abuser to make sure that you don't get screwed over by your own trick room after you die, but really that isn't too much of a burden on hyper offense teams and staka also tends to shine best on full trick room team

Stakataka is generally used best late game after most mons have been weakened and staka is able to clean but stakataka is a pokemon generally worth using even on non trick room team
Some replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-876051192
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874742031
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874678840
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874604147
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874571100
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874561970
 
There is only one nom in this that I strongly support and that is the stakataka to D nom

The first think we need to talk about when nomming stakataka is that it's air balloon set is the best mray check in the game (https://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-03/moveset/gen7anythinggoes-1760.txt: Look in mega rayquaza checks) able to reliably set up trick room and then kill with gyro ball after rocks. Stakataka can also check fairyceus (if not running will o wisp), ekiller, arceus ground, and unecro and many more pokemon

Once stakataka gets it's first kill it can also proceed to sweep because to the boosts it gets from beast boost and it can easily snowball through a team

Stakataka's biggest weakness is that it gets walled by a ton of mons commonly run on balance teams such as support arcues, ferrothron (if you don't run superpower) and defensive dusk man but once you remove those threats stakataka can come in and clean.

If you want to build around stakataka you may need to have at least one other trick room abuser to make sure that you don't get screwed over by your own trick room after you die, but really that isn't too much of a burden on hyper offense teams and staka also tends to shine best on full trick room team

Stakataka is generally used best late game after most mons have been weakened and staka is able to clean but stakataka is a pokemon generally worth using even on non trick room team
Some replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-876051192
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874742031
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874678840
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874604147
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874571100
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874561970
I agree that Stakataka is an awesome pokemon, and can rip holes through teams, especially HO teams. It struggles with balance and stall however, but that can easily be patched up. It's also a good check to Yveltal and Ho-Oh (stone edge), and has plenty of utility with stealth rocks and trick room. It probably best fits on dedicated TR teams, but it's not a bad pick for normal HO either.
Also: here's the best set
Stakataka @ Air Balloon
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Lonely Nature
IVs: 15 Def / 0 Spe
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Gyro Ball
- Trick Room
The 15 ivs in defense and lonely nature make it so that beast boost raises atk over defense.
EDIT: 15 ivs give atk beast boost, so use that. Changed from 13.
And here's some calcs versus mega ray:
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Stakataka: 213-251 (65.3 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Stakataka: 52-62 (15.9 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Stakataka: 23-27 (7 - 8.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Clearly, a stakataka player can swap into a dragon ascent (assuming they know the ray doesn't carry eq), take one, take a V-Create, and trick room up, although not the most consistent, so it is a inconsistent counter, but a consistent check, which is excellent.

I don't insist on the other noms i made. They were more suggestions than not.
 
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Tapu Lele D to B- I do not say this for the psyspam but for the scarf tapu lele, using it in a good team she can be a great revenge killer giving 2 htko after the stealth rock with psychic, psyshock or moonblast in most of the meta game unless it is resisted (things like ferrothorn or necrozma dusk manes) it can still load focus blast for arceus steel or aromatherapy to have something better against stalls

252+ SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Blissey in Psychic Terrain: 891-1048 (124.7 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey in Psychic Terrain: 390-460 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (I've never seen blissey full def but there it is)


252+ SpA Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Arceus-Steel: 238-280 (53.6 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (try predict that)

Scarf Lele manages to be a great against offensive teams since he can give Htko in Ultra Necroz, Mega Rayquaza, Marshadow and 2 htko in ekiller arceus and the psychic terrain protects him from extreme speeds

252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 239-283 (84.7 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 263-309 (93.2 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 239-283 (84.7 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (only adamant life orb +stealth rock damage can ko lele)

Of course she alone does not take care of a team (normally ends) for that we need supports I currently like to use it along with balance team, along with zygarde 100%, bulk necrozma dm along with a arceus that forces the ultra form of necrozma like calm mind arc

I do not know if it's a useful info but I've reached 1994 Elo top 3 at the time using lele scarf without Psyspam
 
Tapu Lele D to B- I do not say this for the psyspam but for the scarf tapu lele, using it in a good team she can be a great revenge killer giving 2 htko after the stealth rock with psychic, psyshock or moonblast in most of the meta game unless it is resisted (things like ferrothorn or necrozma dusk manes) it can still load focus blast for arceus steel or aromatherapy to have something better against stalls

252+ SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Blissey in Psychic Terrain: 891-1048 (124.7 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey in Psychic Terrain: 390-460 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (I've never seen blissey full def but there it is)


252+ SpA Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Arceus-Steel: 238-280 (53.6 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (try predict that)

Scarf Lele manages to be a great against offensive teams since he can give Htko in Ultra Necroz, Mega Rayquaza, Marshadow and 2 htko in ekiller arceus and the psychic terrain protects him from extreme speeds

252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 239-283 (84.7 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 263-309 (93.2 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 239-283 (84.7 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (only adamant life orb +stealth rock damage can ko lele)

Of course she alone does not take care of a team (normally ends) for that we need supports I currently like to use it along with balance team, along with zygarde 100%, bulk necrozma dm along with a arceus that forces the ultra form of necrozma like calm mind arc

I do not know if it's a useful info but I've reached 1994 Elo top 3 at the time using lele scarf without Psyspam
I personally have suffered a lot at the hand of that scarf lele team. I do think B- might be a bit too far, but it’s a nasty revenge killer that totally shuts down ultra necrozma and band ray. Scarf lele is, however significantly hampered by the fact that its STABs are both resisted by Dusk Mane, which can come in on it with impunity and then boost as it switches out. Additionally, ferro walls this thing pretty well, provided you can predict a psyshock or moonblast. I think perhaps C would be a good rank for lele. I wouldn’t object to it remaining at D, but I definitely think that B- is too high. There are my two cents.
 
Tapu Lele D to B- I do not say this for the psyspam but for the scarf tapu lele, using it in a good team she can be a great revenge killer giving 2 htko after the stealth rock with psychic, psyshock or moonblast in most of the meta game unless it is resisted (things like ferrothorn or necrozma dusk manes) it can still load focus blast for arceus steel or aromatherapy to have something better against stalls

252+ SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Blissey in Psychic Terrain: 891-1048 (124.7 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey in Psychic Terrain: 390-460 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (I've never seen blissey full def but there it is)


252+ SpA Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Arceus-Steel: 238-280 (53.6 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (try predict that)

Scarf Lele manages to be a great against offensive teams since he can give Htko in Ultra Necroz, Mega Rayquaza, Marshadow and 2 htko in ekiller arceus and the psychic terrain protects him from extreme speeds

252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 239-283 (84.7 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 263-309 (93.2 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 239-283 (84.7 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (only adamant life orb +stealth rock damage can ko lele)

Of course she alone does not take care of a team (normally ends) for that we need supports I currently like to use it along with balance team, along with zygarde 100%, bulk necrozma dm along with a arceus that forces the ultra form of necrozma like calm mind arc

I do not know if it's a useful info but I've reached 1994 Elo top 3 at the time using lele scarf without Psyspam
People seriously don't understand how good scarf lele is, It can deal more damage than scarf xern can with the added benefit of being immune to priority, it is pretty frail but that really isn't a problem for it. People even underestimate lele's offensive abilities on psyspam only to have their yveltal okhod on a switchin. However I honestly don't believe this merits such an increase in ranking. Maybe c would be more reasonable lele doesn't have the same impact on the meta as pokemon like blissey and deo speed but it is better than every other d ranked mon

Also specs lele is and incredibly powerful wallbreaker


Terrain extender lele is also very good for psyspam even though usually it doesn't do much on it's own it still can deal a ton of damage with psychic and Moonblast


In conclusion lele is underrated but not really b- rank material
 
People seriously don't understand how good scarf lele is, It can deal more damage than scarf xern can with the added benefit of being immune to priority, it is pretty frail but that really isn't a problem for it. People even underestimate lele's offensive abilities on psyspam only to have their yveltal okhod on a switchin. However I honestly don't believe this merits such an increase in ranking. Maybe c would be more reasonable lele doesn't have the same impact on the meta as pokemon like blissey and deo speed but it is better than every other d ranked mon

Also specs lele is and incredibly powerful wallbreaker


Terrain extender lele is also very good for psyspam even though usually it doesn't do much on it's own it still can deal a ton of damage with psychic and Moonblast


In conclusion lele is underrated but not really b- rank material
Specs lele isn’t particularly useful outside of psy spam due to the fact that it really doesn’t have any use besides being a switchin for the sake of the terrain to be out for the deos and/or other Pokémon to come out to basically set up and do damage to the opponent. I have tried scarf/specs lele myself and it leaves it vulnerable if used incorrectly and it wouldn’t be able to stop a lead smeargle from setting up hazards, that is why I don’t see it being any more useful as terrain extender, and even then I still find terrain extender more convenient due to extending, well, its terrain.

Anyways,

169986
B+ ~ B-

I would like to demote rockceus front B+ to B- mostly because it hasn’t been getting as much usage in the current meta as compared to early USUM or last gen. This is due to the fact it is prone to more weaknesses this gen compared the previous and with Dusk mane being a huge part of the meta now, I don’t see it performing well except from it being a check to ho-oh really. It has its good part of being good to switch in on ho-oh, yveltal, and vivillon if carrying perish song, but has a harder time dealing with mons like zygarde, dusk mane, groundceus, etc. You’d have to play around with the current meta, but it proves difficult mostly due to its typing and the more prevalent Pokémon now in the meta are actually Pokémon of the typing it is weak against. It is still a good Arceus form, just not as good as it was in the previous gen or pre marsh even which is why I believe rockceus is not suited to be B+ rank.

169987
B- ~ B

I believe that deo should be ranked up a rank higher due to it being used in most HO teams now and even for psy spam teams as part of its core. I would rank deo-a higher but really it’s only thing that makes it useful is with psy spam sadly, but with deo-s you can use it on your daily basic HO teams on ladder. While it being a lead setter for the team it also has other uses such as setting screens to support its own team for any future set up. I believe that deo-s has always been part of the meta as a way to provide the support to the other party members in the team, which is why I think it should be ranked B in the list.
:toast:
 
Well I want to say something. Rank Lugia up to B+ or A-. Like seriously. I am in the top 500 and used it several times, so umm here is some reasons why. 1: It is bulky as heck and has Multiscale. Like seriously. Because of that, it can take 3 or 4 unboosted fire punches from Primal Groudon, doesn't struggle all that much with mega Rayquaza (unless it gets hit with stealth rock and the Mega Rayquaza has swords dance, then it's in trouble, but swords dance Mega Rayquaza is rare), can take super effective hits well, even from stuff like Marshadow, 4 or 5 thunders from Primal Kyogre, A shadow ball from mega Gengar, and much more. 2: Phasing. Seriously. This fact combined with the first kills a ton of sweeping attempts (especially with Xerneas since it can only set up safely once), makes it not completely helpless vs Dusk Mane Necrozma, make the opponent swap into something bad vs it, can ruin baton pass teams (yes, Espeon too because dragon tail), and more that I may not even know (boy, yes I'd be more than happy to see more stuff on what phasing with Lugia is capable of.) 3: Toxic. This fact combined with the first one can really lead to some hectic trolling if Dusk Mane Necrozma has been defeated. Because of this, it easily can foil Primal Groudon (and phase it if it sets up), and it may switch, but all that means is another Pokémon gets poisoned! This fact can also be helpful against stuff like Ultra Necrozma, Mega Rayquaza (again, can phase it if it sets up), Primal Kyogre, possibly Zygarde complete, and more. 4: It's typing. The Psychic part doesn't matter all that much at all. It's the flying typing that makes this point valid. Because of the flying typing, it is immune to Precicipe (or however you spell it), blades, Marshadow's close combat... OK the psychic typing is useful a little bit. Marshadow's close combat is 4X not very effective (which can lead to crazy shenanigans), and other stuff. As for downsides, I can only think of 2. 1: Taunt almost completely shuts it down. So Yveltal is free to annoy the heck out of Lugia. 2: Doesn't do well against steel types at all. This one is harmful against Dusk Mane Necrozma, but there is no other Pokemon that is used a whole bunch that can take advantage of this. If there is anything I missed, I'd be more than happy to hear it! Edit: Well, turns out some points were wrong. It only beats a third or fourth of baton pass teams, only takes 3 thunders at full HP (still good though because like AnythingGoesLegend says, you'll just toxic stall that thing anyways), oh, yeah just switch to a steel Mon for toxic (or Mega Sableye if you're running stall, but I'm too much of a "Bash em and beat em" type of guy to run stall, and I'm REALLY impatient) and the psychic type is useful to sponge psychic hits like Photon Geyser. This is the only edit for now, but future flaws or positive points may be added in the future. Oh, and I don't use Lugia anymore, main reason being the thing I said about stall. These days, I like to launch an offensive bombardment in a Pokemon Battle.
 
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Well I want to say something. Rank Lugia up to B+ or A-. Like seriously. I am in the top 500 and used it several times, so umm here is some reasons why. 1: It is bulky as heck and has Multiscale. Like seriously. Because of that, it can take 3 or 4 unboosted fire punches from Primal Groudon, doesn't struggle all that much with mega Rayquaza (unless it gets hit with stealth rock and the Mega Rayquaza has swords dance, then it's in trouble, but swords dance Mega Rayquaza is rare), can take super effective hits well, even from stuff like Marshadow, 4 or 5 thunders from Primal Kyogre, A shadow ball from mega Gengar, and much more. 2: Phasing. Seriously. This fact combined with the first kills a ton of sweeping attempts (especially with Xerneas since it can only set up safely once), makes it not completely helpless vs Dusk Mane Necrozma, make the opponent swap into something bad vs it, can ruin baton pass teams (yes, Espeon too because dragon tail), and more that I may not even know (boy, yes I'd be more than happy to see more stuff on what phasing with Lugia is capable of.) 3: Toxic. This fact combined with the first one can really lead to some hectic trolling if Dusk Mane Necrozma has been defeated. Because of this, it easily can foil Primal Groudon (and phase it if it sets up), and it may switch, but all that means is another Pokémon gets poisoned! This fact can also be helpful against stuff like Ultra Necrozma, Mega Rayquaza (again, can phase it if it sets up), Primal Kyogre, possibly Zygarde complete, and more. 4: It's typing. The Psychic part doesn't matter all that much at all. It's the flying typing that makes this point valid. Because of the flying typing, it is immune to Precicipe (or however you spell it), blades, Marshadow's close combat... OK the psychic typing is useful a little bit. Marshadow's close combat is 4X not very effective (which can lead to crazy shenanigans), and other stuff. As for downsides, I can only think of 2. 1: Taunt almost completely shuts it down. So Yveltal is free to annoy the heck out of Lugia. 2: Doesn't do well against steel types at all. This one is harmful against Dusk Mane Necrozma, but there is no other Pokemon that is used a whole bunch that can take advantage of this. If there is anything I missed, I'd be more than happy to hear it!
Daily reminder that lugia is weak af to toxic. Also, getting to top 500 isn’t hard. People have done it using OU teams, and I’ve managed to get to 5th using koko. The fact that a mon took you to top 500 is not sufficient to be a reason to rank it up. Another point: yveltal and dusk mane are two of the most common pokemon in the tier. A mon incapable of putting in work against them inevitably has its usefulness drastically blunted. Lugia’s psychic typing doesn’t help it one bit except that it makes it marginally harder for dusk mane or ultra necrozma to kill it. It already resists cc from marsh, so having extra resistance to that is useless. All it does is make lugia easier to kill using moves like spectral thief and dark pulse. Your point that lugia can be good against bp is almost entirely moot. Virtually all good baton pass teams will have a pokemon with ingrain, rendering lugia dead weight. Dragon tail hitting espeon is also moot, since by the time espeon comes out, it’ll probably be behind a sub, and with enough defense boosts to make your dtail not break their sub. Also, xynixpass runs mr mime, which has immunity to both your phasing moves, and toxic if it’s behind a sub.

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 116-137 (27.8 - 32.9%) -- 81% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
While you brought this calc up as evidence of lugia’s usefulness, Lugia is virtually incapable of damaging pogre back. Also, if you take one thunder, you inevitably take more, since multiscale’s been broken.
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lugia: 232-274 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Oh, looks like Lugia actually gets 3hkoed, unless you’re spamming roost. RIP

Anyway, I oppose this nomination, as I hope I’ve made clear.

Edit: I’m dumb, forgot lugia ran whirlwind over roar. My point still stands (sorta).
 
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Also, xynixpass runs mr mime, which has immunity to both your phasing moves, and toxic if it’s behind a sub.


252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 116-137 (27.8 - 32.9%) -- 81% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
While you brought this calc up as evidence of lugia’s usefulness, Lugia is virtually incapable of damaging pogre back. Also, if you take one thunder, you inevitably take more, since multiscale’s been broken.
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lugia: 232-274 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Oh, looks like Lugia actually gets 3hkoed, unless you’re spamming roost. RIP

Mr mime is not immune to whirlwind which is Lugia's phrasing move of choice

But lugia doesn't beat full baton pass either way but it does beat evopass and smashpass teams if played correctly

also the way you play lugia is you use toxic and spam roost and if you outspeed you basically are guaranteed to get back to Multiscale so if you play like that lugia does beat kyogre by using toxic then spamming roost


I also disagree with the nom but I am just pointing out that a bunch of your points are incorrect
 
The issue with lugia really is how hard it is to build into a team by virtue of the fact that it is extremely hard to build with, as while it may stall some top threats - Primal Groudon, Zygarde, Xerneas, Rayquaza, Ultra Necrozma, so many other top threats just cleave it half, for example Necrozma Dusk Mane, Calm Mind Kyogres, Lunala, Yveltal. It requires support from team mates to beat these mons.

However, the two biggest issues for Lugia are stealth rocks and status which are pretty much omnipresent in the meta. Many of the pokemon above which it could stall out often carry status like toxic or will-o-wisp which is enough to cripple it for the game as Multiscale is pretty much essential. For this reason Lugia, at least in my opinion, is best kept on stall where it gets the support it requires: hazards support and clerical support. If you do run Lugia without the proper support, you'll often find it do very little in some games.

Also Gothitelle and Gengar Mega's existence alone hurt this mon a lot, it is pretty much useless in games where these are on the opposing team. As such, I think Lugia is fine where it is at B+, as it is still a good mon being a nice toxic dispenser and the most reliable check to MRay as jerry hillenberg said (which I agree with), provided you do have the hazards control.
 
I just want to note that I mentioned problems like Yveltal, Dusk Mane Necrozma, and stealth rock not being removed. Oh, and you could always switch into Dusk Mane Necrozma to avoid being poisoned. And I also said I'd be more than happy to hear stuff I missed, didn't I? And by the way, there is commonly used hazard removers that can easily solve stealth rock. Oh, Lugia gets psychic too, so substitute doesn't completely stomp it unless you got a sp.defense buff on the said baton pass Mon. (OK you're right, it isn't a terror to baton pass teams, I had forgotten about Ingrain)
 
Ah, one more thing. If I continue to get comments that haven't been mentioned yet about Lugia that is bad, I will forget about wanting to rank up Lugia. But I mean, all Pokemon have their downsides.
 

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