Resource USUM AG Viability Rankings

skarph explains why reuni shouldnt get ranked pretty well but here are my thoughts:

I havent used reuni myself but from what im seeing, its only good vs passive balances and fits on really specific teams. It needs a lot of support since its kind of a liability vs HO and stall.
When I was drawing up a team for reuniclus, it didn't take me long to realize that I needed a way to deal with Dark types. Disable Psong mgar invalidates any form of Darkceus(except for ice beam variants but those are terrible anyway), Defensive Yveltal, Even Life Orb, ttar. While it may not be a switchin, most individuals send these pokemon out to deal with mgar, and this set provides the perfect support needed. Removing Dark Types is very big, as Uni can easily dominate Balances once its check (as there is often only one) is removed. While I don't avidly support Uni moving up enough to argue people to the ground, I urge people to really look at what one supportive mon can do for Reuniclus. Thank you.
i may have misinterpreted this but i dont get the point of this post. youre nomming reuniclus and telling me why gar is a good teammate but not why i should use reuni + gar core over gar + one of the 40 other viable sweepers in ag. Gar is indeed a very good teammate for sure, it makes literally every relevant pokemon a S rank mon if paired with it. this sounds weird but think about -> lets take necrozma-ultra as an example. gar can remove dark types like darkceus with focus blast and ygod with perish song/disable set (the one youre running) and then unecro pretty much sweeps. gar removes waterceus / darkceus / fairyceus / skarm for dusk mane. also removes fairyceus / waterceus / something else for zygarde/ekiller/groundceus/darkceus and so on.
Im not trying to nom gar for s- or anything but im saying is that if youre willing to provide this much support to reuni, you may as well just run any other pokemon thats actually good and is not a complete dead weight vs stall or HO matchups. just bc reuniclus does well when paired with gar doesnt prove its viability. youre supposed to tell us why reuni is good and why i should use it over mewtwo/unecro/other CM mons/sweepers that are actually viable.

Checking passive supportceus like fairyceus and stuff / ferrothorn / celesteela is also a cool niche, but theres literally 20 other pokemons that can do it too. Now your argument could be that reuni can also sweep teams bc of its cm set, but can it really? Dusk Mane is literally every where, zygarde always runs haze / dtail if its defensive, skarm is pretty common and runs whirlwind, roar and perish arcs and some taunt mewtwos/defensive ygods are a thing. Im even not gonna talk about the offensive threats bc theres too many and reuni doesnt have a very good mu vs HO anyway.

You described the current state of D rank pretty well, altho imo the slurpuff comparison was pretty unfair and i dont think that reuni and slurpuff fall in the same category. slurpuff is a hazard setter while reuniclus is supposed to be a 'sweeper' or 'defensive wall'. its kinda like comparing deo-s to naganadel. reuni is a pretty cool mon but i really dont see any reason why i should use it over like CM arceus (especially steelceus with iron defense). D rank does contain outclassed pokemon but they have some niche that makes them better than a higher rank mon. Mega TTar is not completely outclassed by ray or gengar bc it can run defensive and ddance sets, muk-a is pretty much the only yveltal + fairyceus + xerneas + gengar + poisonceus + darkceus check in 1 pokemon, necrozma dawn wings gets higher spatk and rock polish so its better than tailwind lunala in some matchups, fireceus can run firium z and works pretty well vs the standard DM zygarde ferro balances and so on and also btw most of these arent completely deadweights vs most matchups/playstyles. reuniclus just seems to be so bad, CM mon + status absorber is cool but like, CM refresh darkceus/fairyceus/rockceus? CM steelceus? even cm unecro kinda, even vin2/sub cm m2 would be better but im the only one who uses it.

tldr; reuni is cool and has a niche but its pretty hard to justify it on a team bc it cant do anything on its own and if you want to give it enough support, you could just use some other mon over it. reuni is very matchup reliant and is almost a waste vs some matchups.

also this is the first time ive made a post opposing a nom, so dont roast me / my english please ;w;
 
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Sorry for posting again, but I wanted to jump on the moving Pokemon to D bandwagon and see if we can get this cute pokemon next to the 'big bad legendaries', as MZ would say.


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Umbreon: UR -> D

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Foul Play
- Moonlight
- Heal Bell

So I was inspired to use this after seeing Purple use this in ubers, and honestly, I thought this pokemon would be more effective in ag. I have got some results using Umbreon, I peaked with 2k elo earlier and I do have some replays down below of it doing some work. In general ladder isn't a good skill indicator, however 99% of people looking at VR will be building for ladder, so I think ladder results are fair to use to help with nominations. Not going to prove it, just going to have to take my word for it. Anyway, let's go ahead and see what Umbreon does.

What Umbreon does

I use Umbreon generally as an Ultra Check, Heal Bell user and a secondary Ekiller check most of the time (secondary check as Ekiller can 2HKO Umbreon at +2, and Foul Play cannot OHKO +2 Ekiller; however can after a little chip). Umbreon can do other things like switch in on support arcs like Arc Ground and Arc Dark to spread Toxic or chip Pokemon with Foul Play, but in general, those 3 roles are what I have allocated to Umbreon and everything else is a bonus. It can also act as an emergency Dusk Mane check either against Weakness Policy Mane or if its Z move has already been used. An extremely important aspect about Umbreon is that it is a Heal Bell user that doesn't get trapped by Mega Gengar other than Blissey; this is significant as I don't think Blissey is that great personally and therefore it has a distinctive niche against all the other Heal Bell users in the game. In addition to this I would like to highlight that Umbreon is a heal bell user and an UR Pokemon that isn't complete setup bait; I can't say that about all the other Heal Bell users in the game. This is the best set and EV spread I could come up for Umbreon, I generally prefer Toxic Moonlight to Wish Protect as I think it's slightly less passive that way. If you can think of a better EV spread, let me know and tell me why you think so!

Umbreon's niche over other Dark types in AG

I think the three other Pokemon that are most comparable to Umbreon are Darkceus, Mega Sableye and Yveltal. In this analysis I will only be considering defensive Yveltal; this is because defensive Yveltal and Umbreon play similar roles. Offensive Yveltal sets play a completely different role to Umbreon and is trying to break the opposing team not be an Ultra/Ekiller check, so again I will only be considering defensive Yveltal. Why use Umbreon over other dark types in AG? This is a list of niche's I've compiled against all the other dark types in AG:

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Advantages over Darkceus:

- Access to Foul Play is huge, better than Judgment in most scenarios due to not letting physical Pokemon set up.
- Access to Heal Bell.
- Synchronise is a decent ability; Darkceus effectively doesn't have any ability, it's ability is being dark type. While Synchronise isn't amazing it can still surprise and punish Toxic users that are not Steel or Poison, and then can immediately Heal Bell its status off.
- Able to run Leftovers instead of Dread Plate, which is better in general.
- Able to check CM variants of Ultra Necrozma.

Disadvantages of running Umbreon over Darkceus:

- While it has access to Foul Play and Heal Bell, Darkceus still has a much wider movepool as it is an Arceus-forme and is much more versatile than Umbreon. Darkceus can run CM, Wisp, Perish Song, Defog, Ice Beam; Umbreon can run none of these.
- Darkceus still has more overall bulk, due to its 120/120/120/120/120/120 base stats.
- Darkceus is much faster than Umbreon and does not get shut down by Taunt like Umbreon does.
- Recover has more PP than Moonlight, 16 vs 8; if Umbreon is not running Moonlight, it has to run Wish and Protect which uses up one extra moveslot and means you have to make predicts on when to Protect. Recover is not affected by weather conditions.

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Advantages over Yveltal:

- Access to Heal Bell.
- Only takes 12 damage when coming into rocks.

Disadvantages of running Umbreon over Yveltal:

- Dark Aura is overall a better ability than Synchronise, increases Foul Play output.
- Yveltal has access to Defog and Taunt.
- Roost has more PP than moonlight, not affected by weather conditions.
- Yveltal is faster than Umbreon; this allows Yveltal to check non Jolly Swords Dance Z Dusk Mane's, as it can outspeed and OHKO; Umbreon is OHKO'd by a +2 Z Sunsteel strike (calcs below).
- Able to check Ekiller

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Advantages over Mega Sableye:

- Umbreon doesn't take up a mega slot.
- Able to hold an item.
- Access to Heal Bell.
- Slightly bulkier than Mega Sableye; much more HP, which allows it to check SD Outrage variants of Ultra Necrozma, something Mega Sableye cannot do safely.

Disadvantages of running Umbreon over Mega Sableye:

- Magic bounce is superior to Synchronise.
- Recover has more PP than Moonlight, not affected by weather conditions.
- In this case, I think the additional ghost typing is beneficial; it allows Mega Sableye to check X-scissor/Brick Break variants of Ultra, and of course, means it now only has one weakness.
- Able to check Ekiller

Note: Ttar is obviously another relevant dark type in AG but I will not be including it because again, it plays a completely different role to Umbreon.

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Clefable vs Umbreon
175674


I personally think you can draw really real comparisons between Umbreon and Clefable in their place in AG. At worst, I would say Clefable to Fairyceus and Xerneas is similar to Umbreon to Darkceus and Yveltal. Clefable is unique to the two other fairies because it has Heal Bell and unaware. In a similar way, Umbreon is unique compared to its Dark counterparts as it has Heal Bell and some other little niches that are different depending on if you compare Umbreon to Darkceus or to Yveltal. In addition to this, Clefable gets trapped by M Gengar, Umbreon does not, Umbreon has better overall bulk than Clefable and I think more things set up and threaten Clefable than they do Umbreon due to Foul Play. However, the main point is that if Clefable is D rank, then I think for relatively similar reasoning Umbreon should be D rank as well.

+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 528-622 (134.3 - 158.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Ultra Outrage vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 331-391 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Neuroforce Necrozma-Ultra X-Scissor vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 370-436 (94.1 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Neuroforce Necrozma-Ultra Brick Break vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 348-410 (88.5 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Ultra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 291-343 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 190-225 (48.3 - 57.2%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 276-325 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 291-343 (74 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Necrozma-Ultra Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 60 SpD Umbreon: 190-225 (48.3 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 330-390 (98.5 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 433-513 (129.2 - 153.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-910651839 - Heal bell was pretty clutch here, the MU vs Mega Gar could have been much worse if I didn't get the Heal Bell off. Was also able to Toxic the Darkceus and wear it down.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-911336783 - Again, Heal Bell was clutch again as without it I lost to DD Sub Zygarde
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-911319702 - Able to OHKO Dusk, get off the Heal Bell and that was the game over from there pretty much.

There are other replays of Umbreon doing stuff but I've only shown replays where it was better to have Umbreon instead of let's say, Darkceus. I haven't got that many replays because I haven't used Umbreon for super long and I also forget to save them sometimes as well.


Conclusion:

Overall, it's obviously not a perfect Pokemon that has flaws. But isn't that with all the Pokemon in D? I've identified clear niche's it has over its competition, and as a result, I think this counts as a legitimate nom, so I hope the council at least considers this Pokemon thoroughly. This took like an hour and a half to write, so please read and evaluate it and don't write it off straight away. Look forward to AGLT playoffs, see you all then.
 
Sorry for posting again, but I wanted to jump on the moving Pokemon to D bandwagon and see if we can get this cute pokemon next to the 'big bad legendaries', as MZ would say.


View attachment 175664 Umbreon: UR -> D

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Foul Play
- Moonlight
- Heal Bell

So I was inspired to use this after seeing Purple use this in ubers, and honestly, I thought this pokemon would be more effective in ag. I have got some results using Umbreon, I peaked with 2k elo earlier and I do have some replays down below of it doing some work. In general ladder isn't a good skill indicator, however 99% of people looking at VR will be building for ladder, so I think ladder results are fair to use to help with nominations. Not going to prove it, just going to have to take my word for it. Anyway, let's go ahead and see what Umbreon does.

What Umbreon does

I use Umbreon generally as an Ultra Check, Heal Bell user and a secondary Ekiller check most of the time (secondary check as Ekiller can 2HKO Umbreon at +2, and Foul Play cannot OHKO +2 Ekiller; however can after a little chip). Umbreon can do other things like switch in on support arcs like Arc Ground and Arc Dark to spread Toxic or chip Pokemon with Foul Play, but in general, those 3 roles are what I have allocated to Umbreon and everything else is a bonus. It can also act as an emergency Dusk Mane check either against Weakness Policy Mane or if its Z move has already been used. An extremely important aspect about Umbreon is that it is a Heal Bell user that doesn't get trapped by Mega Gengar other than Blissey; this is significant as I don't think Blissey is that great personally and therefore it has a distinctive niche against all the other Heal Bell users in the game. In addition to this I would like to highlight that Umbreon is a heal bell user and an UR Pokemon that isn't complete setup bait; I can't say that about all the other Heal Bell users in the game. This is the best set and EV spread I could come up for Umbreon, I generally prefer Toxic Moonlight to Wish Protect as I think it's slightly less passive that way. If you can think of a better EV spread, let me know and tell me why you think so!

Umbreon's niche over other Dark types in AG

I think the three other Pokemon that are most comparable to Umbreon are Darkceus, Mega Sableye and Yveltal. In this analysis I will only be considering defensive Yveltal; this is because defensive Yveltal and Umbreon play similar roles. Offensive Yveltal sets play a completely different role to Umbreon and is trying to break the opposing team not be an Ultra/Ekiller check, so again I will only be considering defensive Yveltal. Why use Umbreon over other dark types in AG? This is a list of niche's I've compiled against all the other dark types in AG:

View attachment 175668 Advantages over Darkceus:

- Access to Foul Play is huge, better than Judgment in most scenarios due to not letting physical Pokemon set up.
- Access to Heal Bell.
- Synchronise is a decent ability; Darkceus effectively doesn't have any ability, it's ability is being dark type. While Synchronise isn't amazing it can still surprise and punish Toxic users that are not Steel or Poison, and then can immediately Heal Bell its status off.
- Able to run Leftovers instead of Dread Plate, which is better in general.
- Able to check CM variants of Ultra Necrozma.

Disadvantages of running Umbreon over Darkceus:

- While it has access to Foul Play and Heal Bell, Darkceus still has a much wider movepool as it is an Arceus-forme and is much more versatile than Umbreon. Darkceus can run CM, Wisp, Perish Song, Defog, Ice Beam; Umbreon can run none of these.
- Darkceus still has more overall bulk, due to its 120/120/120/120/120/120 base stats.
- Darkceus is much faster than Umbreon and does not get shut down by Taunt like Umbreon does.
- Recover has more PP than Moonlight, 16 vs 8; if Umbreon is not running Moonlight, it has to run Wish and Protect which uses up one extra moveslot and means you have to make predicts on when to Protect. Recover is not affected by weather conditions.

View attachment 175671 Advantages over Yveltal:

- Access to Heal Bell.
- Only takes 12 damage when coming into rocks.

Disadvantages of running Umbreon over Yveltal:

- Dark Aura is overall a better ability than Synchronise, increases Foul Play output.
- Yveltal has access to Defog and Taunt.
- Roost has more PP than moonlight, not affected by weather conditions.
- Yveltal is faster than Umbreon; this allows Yveltal to check non Jolly Swords Dance Z Dusk Mane's, as it can outspeed and OHKO; Umbreon is OHKO'd by a +2 Z Sunsteel strike (calcs below).
- Able to check Ekiller

View attachment 175672 Advantages over Mega Sableye:

- Umbreon doesn't take up a mega slot.
- Able to hold an item.
- Access to Heal Bell.
- Slightly bulkier than Mega Sableye; much more HP, which allows it to check SD Outrage variants of Ultra Necrozma, something Mega Sableye cannot do safely.

Disadvantages of running Umbreon over Mega Sableye:

- Magic bounce is superior to Synchronise.
- Recover has more PP than Moonlight, not affected by weather conditions.
- In this case, I think the additional ghost typing is beneficial; it allows Mega Sableye to check X-scissor/Brick Break variants of Ultra, and of course, means it now only has one weakness.
- Able to check Ekiller

Note: Ttar is obviously another relevant dark type in AG but I will not be including it because again, it plays a completely different role to Umbreon.

View attachment 175673Clefable vs UmbreonView attachment 175674

I personally think you can draw really real comparisons between Umbreon and Clefable in their place in AG. At worst, I would say Clefable to Fairyceus and Xerneas is similar to Umbreon to Darkceus and Yveltal. Clefable is unique to the two other fairies because it has Heal Bell and unaware. In a similar way, Umbreon is unique compared to its Dark counterparts as it has Heal Bell and some other little niches that are different depending on if you compare Umbreon to Darkceus or to Yveltal. In addition to this, Clefable gets trapped by M Gengar, Umbreon does not, Umbreon has better overall bulk than Clefable and I think more things set up and threaten Clefable than they do Umbreon due to Foul Play. However, the main point is that if Clefable is D rank, then I think for relatively similar reasoning Umbreon should be D rank as well.

+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 528-622 (134.3 - 158.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Ultra Outrage vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 331-391 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Neuroforce Necrozma-Ultra X-Scissor vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 370-436 (94.1 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Neuroforce Necrozma-Ultra Brick Break vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 348-410 (88.5 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Ultra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 291-343 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 190-225 (48.3 - 57.2%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 276-325 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 291-343 (74 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Necrozma-Ultra Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 60 SpD Umbreon: 190-225 (48.3 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 330-390 (98.5 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 433-513 (129.2 - 153.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-910651839 - Heal bell was pretty clutch here, the MU vs Mega Gar could have been much worse if I didn't get the Heal Bell off. Was also able to Toxic the Darkceus and wear it down.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-911336783 - Again, Heal Bell was clutch again as without it I lost to DD Sub Zygarde
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-911319702 - Able to OHKO Dusk, get off the Heal Bell and that was the game over from there pretty much.

There are other replays of Umbreon doing stuff but I've only shown replays where it was better to have Umbreon instead of let's say, Darkceus. I haven't got that many replays because I haven't used Umbreon for super long and I also forget to save them sometimes as well.


Conclusion:

Overall, it's obviously not a perfect Pokemon that has flaws. But isn't that with all the Pokemon in D? I've identified clear niche's it has over its competition, and as a result, I think this counts as a legitimate nom, so I hope the council at least considers this Pokemon thoroughly. This took like an hour and a half to write, so please read and evaluate it and don't write it off straight away. Look forward to AGLT playoffs, see you all then.
Honestly I strongly support this nom


I have used umbreon on ladder with some success

Umbreon definitely has its advantages over the other dark types of the tier and checking most sd forms if unecro is a viable niche

Umbreon can do so much more too

Umbreon can be a check to scarf ray

252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

If you are very desperate and you need to kill an mray umbreon has a chance to live a +1 life Orb dragon Ascent

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 363-426 (92.1 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO


Umbreon obviously can check deo a

+2 252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Umbreon: 200-236 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And foul play kills after all of these

(Sorry for low quality post)
 
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Nagandel B- to B
this dude sweeps literally every balance team without support. It gets really good STAB combination and Fire blast as the coverage move, which means pretty much nothing resists all of its 3 moves (except Heatran, but thats not very common so its fine D:). Bcz of its STAB/Coverage combination, it forces out many mons (Rayquaza, Zygarde, Fairyceus, Waterceus, Poisonceus, every mon which ends with ceus except Ground, Skarm/Celesteela/Ferro) which gives it plenty of set up opportunities. After 1 nasty plot, its pretty much unstoppable. +2 Z Draco OHKOs everything, +2 Draco is also very strong. The only way to stop this is by using multiple priority or just prevent it from setting up (which is usually pretty hard esp if youre using balance or stall). If youve faced this in a battle you'll know that you have to sack a mon or two to have a chance at killing this. I honestly think its pretty underrated and should be ranked higher.

0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Naganadel: 195-231 (67.9 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fairy: 524-618 (118 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark: 535-630 (120.4 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark: 357-421 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
uhh yeah z draco ohkos everything that doesnt resist it.

+2 252 SpA Naganadel Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 328-387 (97.9 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 240-283 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 207-244 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 357-421 (93.7 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (ekiller/ghost/groundy)
252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 177-208 (61.6 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 161-191 (56 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 138-163 (48 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-916035171 gets important kills, notice how opponent sacks his mons before going to his actual check bc Z move kills it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-916507702 gets 2 kills easily

Kartana UR to D
this is another very underrated and underused mon. Im pretty sure it used to be ranked at one point but idk what happened. Theres 3 main sets - SD Z move, SD Life Orb + Sub and SD Tailwind. Its straight up impossible to stop any of these sets if Kartana has sticky webs support (ill post the calcs to prove these points). Kartana has amazing physical bulk which means that priority cannot beat it easily. I didnt wanna write much so heres another Kartana nom
z move:
+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 466-549 (105.6 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (w/o terrain)
252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Groudon-Primal in Grassy Terrain: 352-415 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh in Grassy Terrain: 221-261 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (ho-oh is 4* resist jbtw)
+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Grassy Terrain: 446-525 (112 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 462-544 (110 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery

z tailwind:
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 240 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Fairy on a critical hit: 394-465 (89.3 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marshadow on a critical hit: 339-400 (105.6 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Grassy Terrain on a critical hit: 344-405 (102.6 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

life orb:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 240 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 341-403 (77.3 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy in Grassy Terrain: 468-551 (106.1 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Groudon-Primal in Grassy Terrain: 472-555 (116.8 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs scarf ray
252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kartana: 198-234 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 413-486 (117.6 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Groudon D to UR
what does this even do lol? I mean ig it gets up rocks but theres 10 other rocks setter Id use over this. SD Z move/life orb is outclassed by SD Pdon/Groundceus and even Zygarde. This is pretty much the only D rank mon which I think should be unranked bc its garbage and doesnt do anything.

btw, I 100% support the umbreon nom and I request all the other council members to use it before they vote on it. Umbreon is definitely not outclassed by other dark types in AG, Synchronize + Wish + Heal Bell with good bulk makes it pretty unique and it doesnt need a lot of support from teammates other than a fairy pokemon switch, poisonceus/dusk mane/primal groudon/whatever.
 
Last edited:
Nagandel B- to B
this dude sweeps literally every balance team. It gets real good STAB combination and Fire blast as the coverage move, which means pretty much nothing resists all of its 3 moves (except Heatran, but thats not very common so its fine D:). Bcz of its STAB/Coverage combination, it forces out many mons (Rayquaza, Zygarde, Fairyceus, Waterceus, Poisonceus, every mon which ends with ceus except Ground, Skarm/Celesteela/Ferro) which gives it plenty of set up opportunities. +2 Z Draco OHKOs everything, +2 Draco is also very strong. The only way to stop this is by using priority or just prevent it from setting up (which is usually pretty hard esp if youre using balance or stall). If youve faced this in a battle you'll know that you have to sack a mon or two to have a chance at killing this. I honestly think its pretty underrated and should be ranked higher.

+2 252 SpA Naganadel Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fairy: 524-618 (118 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark: 535-630 (120.4 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark: 357-421 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
uhh yeah z draco ohkos everything that doesnt resist it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-916199544 sweeps w/o support
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-916035171 gets important kills, notice how opponent sacks his mons before going to his actual check bc Z move kills it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-916507702 gets 2 kills easily

Kartana UR to D
this is another very underrated and underused mon. Im pretty sure it used to be ranked at one point but idk what happened. Theres 3 main sets - SD Z move, SD Life Orb + Sub and SD Tailwind. Its straight up impossible to stop any of these sets if Kartana has sticky webs support. Kartana has amazing physical bulk which means that priority cannot beat it easily. Another well written Kartana nom
+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 466-549 (105.6 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 240 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Fairy on a critical hit: 394-465 (89.3 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (z tailwind)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 240 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 341-403 (77.3 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^^ all of these are without grassy terrain.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy in Grassy Terrain: 468-551 (106.1 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Groudon-Primal in Grassy Terrain: 352-415 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Groudon D to UR
what does this even do lol? I mean ig it gets up rocks but theres 10 other rocks setter Id use over this. SD Z move/life orb is outclassed by SD Pdon/Groundceus and even Zygarde. This is pretty much the only D rank mon which I think should be unranked bc its garbage and doesnt do anything.

btw, I 100% support the umbreon nom and I request all the other council members to use it before they vote on it. Umbreon is definitely not outclassed by other dark types in AG, Synchronize + Wish + Heal Bell with good bulk makes it pretty unique and it doesnt need a lot of support from teammates other than a fairy pokemon switch, poisonceus/dusk mane/primal groudon/whatever.
Naganadel B- to B

Disagree. As much as I love Naganadel, it's really difficult to get it to +2. The only form of Arceus it can set up on reliably is Arc-Poison. All others have a way to hit Naga for at least neutral, which is then enough for any form of priority to pick it off, meaning Naga only got one kill off. While Naganadel is incredibly strong versus stall #SMASHED (outside of god Magnemite), stall is really bad right now. Even if the stall has an offensive component, like Band Ray, Naga is really easy to pick off:

252+ Atk Choice Band Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 238-281 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

If Stall were better, I'd hella agree with this nom, but in the current metagame, I have to disagree.

Kartana UR to D

Hard agree. Kartana is obnoxious to face and it's actually really good. SD on Webs is terrifying to face if you don't have a Skarm, Celes, or Zapdos. The high crit-chance from Leaf Blade is annoying and Kart's access to good coverage moves, like Sacred Sword and Knock, is just terrible to switch in to. The most Arc-Poison can do is Burn, but Kart just SD's to +6. Even Scarf can be good as an anti-HO matchup, seeing as Jolly outspeeds adamant Ray and most Kart-counters don't belong on HO. Immunity to Spore and access to an actually decent perfect accuracy move (Smart Strike) is just everything I'd ever want from a mon. Totes gets my seal of approval.

Groudon D to UR

Once again, agree. Groudon is just bad. I think ladder-Jesi Alex's inability to qualify for AGLT using Red Card Twave lead-Groudon should be testament towards how bad it truly is. It should be noted that LO Groudon has a strong matchup versus normal BO-lead Proudon. LO Blades does quite a bit of damage to most things, and LO gives a way for Groudon to get itself killed. That being said, HO has so many other leads that beat Proudon and everything outclasses regular Groudon otherwise. Groudon to F-rank.
 
Alright time for some more stupid AGL noms

Glalie D -> UR

In my opinion this mon is absolutely outclassed by Smeargle as a moody pokemon.
The first thing of note is smeargle doesn't lose to marshadow because of it's immunity to spectral thief. In order for glalie to sweep marshadow must be removed first or glalie will just end up losing all of its stat boosts by being forced to switch or let marsh get the boosts. Furthermore smeargle gets access to a superior sweeping move in power trip or can even run baton pass so a stronger teammate can do the sweep. Smeargle also gets access to a superior protection move in spiky shield. Glalie does have superior defenses and offensive stats but that doesn't really matter when smeargle has the stronger move in power trip or just bps to a stronger mon and both are just spamming sub protect so defense isn't really a factor if they both aren't getting hit. I really see no reason to ever run Glalie when you can just run smeargle instead

Stakataka UR -> D

All right so we are back with a stakataka to D nom, Stakataka is absolutely amazing in ag, it's ability to easily set up trick room against plenty of metagame staples and sweep through teams is amazing. Stakataka is currently 26th in usage in ag putting it above all D rank pokemon except for tapu lele by usage. Air ballon stakataka is still the number 1 mray check by usage stats (Source) and once stakataka gets going it becomes almost impossible to stop. Stakataka does struggle against very bulky teams but against offensive teams it shines and against balance teams it shines once the bulky pokemon have been removed

replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-876051192
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874742031
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874678840
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874604147
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874571100
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874561970
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-876606548
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-876876107
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-876907638

Deoxys Attack C -> B-

Deoxys attack is an absolutely amazing sweeper and was absolutely fine at B-
The first thing we need to talk about when talking about deoxys attack is its abilites in terrain, +2 deo a can ohko almost the enitre metagame with psychic. I feel like many people are sleeping on the potential of psyspam but really psyspam is a viable strategy that I feel like goes unappreciated by those who don't use it, The facts are that there isn't a single pokemon in the game that can safely switch in on a deoxys attack in psychic terrain

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-900534654
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-845534447


I have plenty of replays but I am too lazy to get more and I am out of time XD
 
Stakataka UR -> D

All right so we are back with a stakataka to D nom, Stakataka is absolutely amazing in ag, it's ability to easily set up trick room against plenty of metagame staples and sweep through teams is amazing. Stakataka is currently 26th in usage in ag putting it above all D rank pokemon except for tapu lele by usage. Air ballon stakataka is still the number 1 mray check by usage stats (Source) and once stakataka gets going it becomes almost impossible to stop. Stakataka does struggle against very bulky teams but against offensive teams it shines and against balance teams it shines once the bulky pokemon have been removed
So I'm not going over the rest because I couldn't care less, but there's many problems with this nom. Your first point is easily setting up tr, but you fail to mention how staka is complete ass outside of it and therefore must almost always waste a turn to set it up, for which the opponent could cripple it, phaze it, put it in range of smth, or just switch into an answer. 26th in usage is so irrelevant, bad players can spam it to their hearts content. In fact, this hurts your point even since it proves it has way more usage than it should, being way over hyped. Your next point is, tbh, laughably bad. It's literally not "the best mray check". All that counts is by if a pokemon forces another out. For that point you could use defensive heatran with Balloon to force mray out. That stat is not a good representation at all of checks and counters and should never be used as a means of nomming a pokemon. Next, you say it does well vs offensive teams, which is true, but once again, outside of full tr teams it struggles to set up. Then, another bad point. Saying "it shines once the checks are removed" is, to be blunt, an absolutely horrendous way to argue for vr. You could make that point about any garbage Mon based on that poor logic

Staka isn't bad, but it needs a full team with tr to do anything, and since trick room isn't very good, it should stay UR.
 
So I'm not going over the rest because I couldn't care less, but there's many problems with this nom. Your first point is easily setting up tr, but you fail to mention how staka is complete ass outside of it and therefore must almost always waste a turn to set it up, for which the opponent could cripple it, phaze it, put it in range of smth, or just switch into an answer. 26th in usage is so irrelevant, bad players can spam it to their hearts content. In fact, this hurts your point even since it proves it has way more usage than it should, being way over hyped. Your next point is, tbh, laughably bad. It's literally not "the best mray check". All that counts is by if a pokemon forces another out. For that point you could use defensive heatran with Balloon to force mray out. That stat is not a good representation at all of checks and counters and should never be used as a means of nomming a pokemon. Next, you say it does well vs offensive teams, which is true, but once again, outside of full tr teams it struggles to set up. Then, another bad point. Saying "it shines once the checks are removed" is, to be blunt, an absolutely horrendous way to argue for vr. You could make that point about any garbage Mon based on that poor logic

Staka isn't bad, but it needs a full team with tr to do anything, and since trick room isn't very good, it should stay UR.
I don't understand your problem with those points, for starters using usage as an argument is encouraged, my point being that stakataka usually either forces mray to switch or use an attack that will do like 10 either way you get trick room up and you are in position to sweep, furthermore there are plenty of pokemon that are not good on non offense teams in vr, the best examples being vivillon and naganadel in my opinion. Also I have never had trouble setting up trick room with stakataka, there is always at least 1 pokemon on any team that stakataka can set up on. Also stakataka is viable outside of full tr, I made a semi tr HO and stakataka almost always put in work as you can see from plenty of replays I posted. I would even argue that stakataka is viable on non offense teams as a way to deal with threats such as ekiller and mray.
 

pulsar512b

Banned deucer.
I don't understand your problem with those points, for starters using usage as an argument is encouraged, my point being that stakataka usually either forces mray to switch or use an attack that will do like 10 either way you get trick room up and you are in position to sweep, furthermore there are plenty of pokemon that are not good on non offense teams in vr, the best examples being vivillon and naganadel in my opinion. Also I have never had trouble setting up trick room with stakataka, there is always at least 1 pokemon on any team that stakataka can set up on. Also stakataka is viable outside of full tr, I made a semi tr HO and stakataka almost always put in work as you can see from plenty of replays I posted. I would even argue that stakataka is viable on non offense teams as a way to deal with threats such as ekiller and mray.
I want to say that I do agree with AGL here.
However, Naganadel is pretty reasonable on more balanced teams since they need a strong breaker, and Idk about vivillon. Can you elaborate? But your point is made, just due to suicide leads, etc. And you are completely correct about mray, it's an ez set up opportunity. He posted like a dozen replays, that ought to be enough, and if it's not, I'll dig up some more. However, it's not very good outside of TR and is hardly useful in more bulky MUs.
 

pulsar512b

Banned deucer.
Nagandel B- to B
this dude sweeps literally every balance team without support. It gets really good STAB combination and Fire blast as the coverage move, which means pretty much nothing resists all of its 3 moves (except Heatran, but thats not very common so its fine D:). Bcz of its STAB/Coverage combination, it forces out many mons (Rayquaza, Zygarde, Fairyceus, Waterceus, Poisonceus, every mon which ends with ceus except Ground, Skarm/Celesteela/Ferro) which gives it plenty of set up opportunities. After 1 nasty plot, its pretty much unstoppable. +2 Z Draco OHKOs everything, +2 Draco is also very strong. The only way to stop this is by using multiple priority or just prevent it from setting up (which is usually pretty hard esp if youre using balance or stall). If youve faced this in a battle you'll know that you have to sack a mon or two to have a chance at killing this. I honestly think its pretty underrated and should be ranked higher.
It's not bad against offense even, if you have screens up. Balance, it doesn't necessarily need screens, but it goddamned likes them. It also completely rekts stall:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-921210428

I call special attention to moves 15-25, where it shows that it can beat a chansey 1v1. How many special attackers have that ability?

That's right: 2, maybe 3 (mewtwo, naganadel, maybe some xern variants)

also here:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-921225332
 
175325
Ultra Necrozma S- to A+

This raise puzzled me, to be honest. I think an issue with some of the raises/drops recently is the lack of precedent. Since Ultra was raised to A+, I haven't seen it do anything special that would warrant it a raise to S-, and frankly, this pokemon has some major issues. Now I know I have nommed this Pokemon before and said some great things about it, but S- is freakishly good, and this Pokemon definitely has some flaws. The two main issues are as follows:
- Dark types
- Easily revenge killed

Now, I know dark types don't stop it per se, but there's some important things to consider. One is that you can only check one of the darks; either darkceus or yveltal, not both. So this means there's a 50 50 chance of you being completely stopped by a check. Secondly, it also means you have to drop sunsteel for coverage in stone edge or x-scissor. The issue with this is that you need a xern check alongside Ultra; this isn't a major issue but it is extremely annoying. It basically forces to use Poisonceus alongside ultra, which isn't terrible but stacks ground weakness a LOT, I have had this problem a lot with cm groundceus just steamrolling through my team. The other alternative is to use Dawn Wings to ultra burst alongside spdef mane, which again isn't bad but Dawn Wings prior to ultra bursting is far from ideal. One final thing is that X-scissor cannot actually OHKO max defensive darkceus; and is a roll against Darceus running some speed (calcs below). This kind of sucks, and there's also the fact that to bypass Yveltal you need to run Stone edge which can ultimately miss quite a bit. Charti Yveltal is pretty much off the radar, but it's not impossible to run into it and so that also does limit Ultra Necrozma's breaking capabilities. I'm just trying to say that Ultra can't indefinitely bypass its checks; a little luck is still necessary here.

+2 252 Atk Neuroforce Necrozma-Ultra X-Scissor vs. 248 HP / 164 Def Arceus-Dark: 392-462 (88.4 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Neuroforce Necrozma-Ultra X-Scissor vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Arceus-Dark: 336-396 (75.8 - 89.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

There are a lot of things that can revenge kill Ultra, and I mean a LOT of common threats. These include: Mega Gengar, Marshadow, Scarf Xerneas, Scarf/Sucker Punch Yveltal, Mega Rayqauza, Lunala, which are all excellent Pokemon/sets in their own right. The point here is that ultra's sweeping potential is very low; it might be able to take out something with its Z, but other than that it won't be able to do much else.

I have also felt like CM ultra has dropped off a lot; that might just be me, but I feel Swords Dance is by far the predominant set in ag now. This increases the number of checks it has (Darkceus and Skarmory are now much more reliable checks) and also increases its predictability and ease to play around. Sure, the surprise of CM is still there, but as a reflection of the meta it has to be said that it lowers ultra's viability. One last note, Mega Sableye while is quite rare is still around and only loses to sd outrage, which can leave ultra exposed to damage or allows an opposing Pokemon to set up for free.

Kyogre B- to B

Another thing I have noticed is the falling usage of Primal Groudon. Not significant drops, but definitely noteworthy. This helps base Kyogre massively, as Primal Groudon is easily its biggest adversary by far. There's not that much to say here, only two sets there really are is scarf and specs; scarf is a decent revenge killer and water spout annihilates support arc formes, and as for specs that just blows through everything that tries to switch into it, with the exception of Primal Groudon. You could say Kyogre's effectiveness is reflected by MDB's rmt, reaching an impressive elo and gxe considering he was using a B- ranked Pokemon.

An important theme here is that I think precedent and evidence is extremely important for noms at the moment; everything is so close and the VR is in reasonable shape which means for Pokemon to move up and down ranks it should be backed up significantly. Recently I don't think that's been the case with some exceptions; examples of Pokemon with good evidence and support in the last few months and have been moved up, as a result, are as follows:

- Heatran
175331

- Koko
175332

- Mewtwo
175333


I just feel with some of the other noms, there's just been a lack of evidence and an element of randomness about some of the changes, including changes made within the council that no one asked for, even though it's the people that make the noms who actually play the game. I don't think it's up to the council to shift it any way they want, it should be left to the users to nom things in my opinion. Ghostceus, Grassceus and Ultra were all fine where they were, but I've only talked about ultra as that's the one I feel the strongest about. However, random stuff coming in and out of D has also seemed extremely weird, Serp was in D and then dropped out immediately, M gyra was raised to D with no real precedent and with no one really using it or providing replays. I'm just looking for some more consistent with where the council wants to go with VR, and I do think the clarification of D rank has helped but we'll wait and see what the future brings.

Lastly, hate to say it but I do finally agree with a nom that has come up quite frequently and it's been coming for a while.

Yveltal
175334
A to A-

Going to keep it really brief, as others have already talked about this extensively. Rocks are probably the biggest pain for this Pokemon, if it took 12 instead of 25 coming in on rocks I would have kept it at A for sure. But, at the end of the day offensive sets struggle to break through Arceus-formes- with the exception of webs. However, webs in itself is not that popular of a playstyle, mostly due to the fact that defog is absolutely everywhere. While it is still effective, I don't think webs is that reflective of the meta. Scarf, while not terrible is too weak in general, there is much better revenge killing options out there. Lastly, as Skarph has said while the defensive set is probably the most effective in ag at the moment, it can be pressured greatly with rocks and is limited as a defensive option due to this.

Edit: I also think it makes sense for Yveltal and Darkceus to be on the same rank; and I think it's clear that Yveltal is closer to A- than Darkceus is to A, so a drop to A- is logical in my opinion.

Thanks for reading and I'll catch you guys later.
This post is pretty in depth and since Zenithial took the time to type this up, I'll take the time to address it.
  • Justification: Necrozma-Ultra from S+ to A-
    • Personally, I believed that Necrozma-Ultra should've risen simply due to it's sheer versatility
    • While physical sets struggle to beat dark types, the CM variant CAN beat both with either power gem / dragon pulse
    • You said that every team must have a geo xern team check; however Ultra Necrozma frequently belongs on BO and HO, where a hard xern counter in Poisonceus, Magearna, or Dusk Mane isn't that necessary
    • As a comparison to M-Ray, it frequently requires a bit more than just 1 mon to check ultra necrozma as a whole, since it's so unpredictable especially when it hasn't revealed its form/set
  • Clarification: Kyogre from B- to B
    • While PDon usage has gone down, doesn't the existence of POgre still hinder the viability of kyogre? While scarf spout can be a nice cleaning tool, it seems inferior to the versatility of POgre
  • Agree: Yveltal A to A-
    • With the Fat arc meta that's happening rn Yveltal's viability's is definitely not as strong since it just gets walled by a cm refresh arc or something along those lines
  • Addressing: Council Noms
    • Honestly, this is probably an issue that needs to be addressed
    • We can try to set up a blind voting process so votes aren't influenced based on other's votes
    • Furthermore, a better process needs to be in place for council noms
Deoxys Attack C -> B-

Deoxys attack is an absolutely amazing sweeper and was absolutely fine at B-
The first thing we need to talk about when talking about deoxys attack is its abilites in terrain, +2 deo a can ohko almost the enitre metagame with psychic. I feel like many people are sleeping on the potential of psyspam but really psyspam is a viable strategy that I feel like goes unappreciated by those who don't use it, The facts are that there isn't a single pokemon in the game that can safely switch in on a deoxys attack in psychic terrain

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-900534654
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-845534447
While I agree that deoxys attack is absolutely incredible under terrain, the problem with this argument making it B- is that it RELIES on terrain.
  • Deoxys Attack as a stand alone pokemon really isn't fantastic
  • As such, it fits the definition of the C tier as pokemon that can be very good but requires significant team support
    • In this case, it needs both hazard removal and the existence of Tapu Lele
  • This makes it niche and hard to justify
Nagandel B- to B
this dude sweeps literally every balance team without support. It gets really good STAB combination and Fire blast as the coverage move, which means pretty much nothing resists all of its 3 moves (except Heatran, but thats not very common so its fine D:). Bcz of its STAB/Coverage combination, it forces out many mons (Rayquaza, Zygarde, Fairyceus, Waterceus, Poisonceus, every mon which ends with ceus except Ground, Skarm/Celesteela/Ferro) which gives it plenty of set up opportunities. After 1 nasty plot, its pretty much unstoppable. +2 Z Draco OHKOs everything, +2 Draco is also very strong. The only way to stop this is by using multiple priority or just prevent it from setting up (which is usually pretty hard esp if youre using balance or stall). If youve faced this in a battle you'll know that you have to sack a mon or two to have a chance at killing this. I honestly think its pretty underrated and should be ranked higher.

0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Naganadel: 195-231 (67.9 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fairy: 524-618 (118 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark: 535-630 (120.4 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark: 357-421 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
uhh yeah z draco ohkos everything that doesnt resist it.

+2 252 SpA Naganadel Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 328-387 (97.9 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 240-283 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 207-244 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 357-421 (93.7 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (ekiller/ghost/groundy)
252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 177-208 (61.6 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 161-191 (56 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 138-163 (48 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-916035171 gets important kills, notice how opponent sacks his mons before going to his actual check bc Z move kills it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-916507702 gets 2 kills easily
Kartana UR to D
this is another very underrated and underused mon. Im pretty sure it used to be ranked at one point but idk what happened. Theres 3 main sets - SD Z move, SD Life Orb + Sub and SD Tailwind. Its straight up impossible to stop any of these sets if Kartana has sticky webs support (ill post the calcs to prove these points). Kartana has amazing physical bulk which means that priority cannot beat it easily. I didnt wanna write much so heres another Kartana nom
z move:
+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 466-549 (105.6 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (w/o terrain)
252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Groudon-Primal in Grassy Terrain: 352-415 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh in Grassy Terrain: 221-261 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (ho-oh is 4* resist jbtw)
+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Grassy Terrain: 446-525 (112 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 462-544 (110 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery

z tailwind:
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 240 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Fairy on a critical hit: 394-465 (89.3 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marshadow on a critical hit: 339-400 (105.6 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Grassy Terrain on a critical hit: 344-405 (102.6 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

life orb:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 240 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 341-403 (77.3 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy in Grassy Terrain: 468-551 (106.1 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Groudon-Primal in Grassy Terrain: 472-555 (116.8 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs scarf ray
252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kartana: 198-234 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 413-486 (117.6 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Groudon D to UR
what does this even do lol? I mean ig it gets up rocks but theres 10 other rocks setter Id use over this. SD Z move/life orb is outclassed by SD Pdon/Groundceus and even Zygarde. This is pretty much the only D rank mon which I think should be unranked bc its garbage and doesnt do anything.

btw, I 100% support the umbreon nom and I request all the other council members to use it before they vote on it. Umbreon is definitely not outclassed by other dark types in AG, Synchronize + Wish + Heal Bell with good bulk makes it pretty unique and it doesnt need a lot of support from teammates other than a fairy pokemon switch, poisonceus/dusk mane/primal groudon/whatever.
Excellent noms, I'll discuss each in a bit more detail:
  • Agree: Naganadel
    • Naga's honestly pretty scary and although it really only belongs on HO it's very threatening
    • However, while it's niche, I still think it's a bit better than the other stuff in B-
  • Disagree: Kartana
    • Isn't dusk mane a completely better version as an offensive SD user under webs that has the surprise factor of being ultra or not?
  • Clarification: Groudon
    • I think the niche for groudon was like a lead with red card and stealth rocks that isn't a glass cannon
    • If you all think that's not justified for a D rank feel free to post and let us know
      • I'll pay attention to this nom
Sorry for posting again, but I wanted to jump on the moving Pokemon to D bandwagon and see if we can get this cute pokemon next to the 'big bad legendaries', as MZ would say.


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Umbreon: UR -> D

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Foul Play
- Moonlight
- Heal Bell

So I was inspired to use this after seeing Purple use this in ubers, and honestly, I thought this pokemon would be more effective in ag. I have got some results using Umbreon, I peaked with 2k elo earlier and I do have some replays down below of it doing some work. In general ladder isn't a good skill indicator, however 99% of people looking at VR will be building for ladder, so I think ladder results are fair to use to help with nominations. Not going to prove it, just going to have to take my word for it. Anyway, let's go ahead and see what Umbreon does.

What Umbreon does

I use Umbreon generally as an Ultra Check, Heal Bell user and a secondary Ekiller check most of the time (secondary check as Ekiller can 2HKO Umbreon at +2, and Foul Play cannot OHKO +2 Ekiller; however can after a little chip). Umbreon can do other things like switch in on support arcs like Arc Ground and Arc Dark to spread Toxic or chip Pokemon with Foul Play, but in general, those 3 roles are what I have allocated to Umbreon and everything else is a bonus. It can also act as an emergency Dusk Mane check either against Weakness Policy Mane or if its Z move has already been used. An extremely important aspect about Umbreon is that it is a Heal Bell user that doesn't get trapped by Mega Gengar other than Blissey; this is significant as I don't think Blissey is that great personally and therefore it has a distinctive niche against all the other Heal Bell users in the game. In addition to this I would like to highlight that Umbreon is a heal bell user and an UR Pokemon that isn't complete setup bait; I can't say that about all the other Heal Bell users in the game. This is the best set and EV spread I could come up for Umbreon, I generally prefer Toxic Moonlight to Wish Protect as I think it's slightly less passive that way. If you can think of a better EV spread, let me know and tell me why you think so!

Umbreon's niche over other Dark types in AG

I think the three other Pokemon that are most comparable to Umbreon are Darkceus, Mega Sableye and Yveltal. In this analysis I will only be considering defensive Yveltal; this is because defensive Yveltal and Umbreon play similar roles. Offensive Yveltal sets play a completely different role to Umbreon and is trying to break the opposing team not be an Ultra/Ekiller check, so again I will only be considering defensive Yveltal. Why use Umbreon over other dark types in AG? This is a list of niche's I've compiled against all the other dark types in AG:

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Advantages over Darkceus:

- Access to Foul Play is huge, better than Judgment in most scenarios due to not letting physical Pokemon set up.
- Access to Heal Bell.
- Synchronise is a decent ability; Darkceus effectively doesn't have any ability, it's ability is being dark type. While Synchronise isn't amazing it can still surprise and punish Toxic users that are not Steel or Poison, and then can immediately Heal Bell its status off.
- Able to run Leftovers instead of Dread Plate, which is better in general.
- Able to check CM variants of Ultra Necrozma.

Disadvantages of running Umbreon over Darkceus:

- While it has access to Foul Play and Heal Bell, Darkceus still has a much wider movepool as it is an Arceus-forme and is much more versatile than Umbreon. Darkceus can run CM, Wisp, Perish Song, Defog, Ice Beam; Umbreon can run none of these.
- Darkceus still has more overall bulk, due to its 120/120/120/120/120/120 base stats.
- Darkceus is much faster than Umbreon and does not get shut down by Taunt like Umbreon does.
- Recover has more PP than Moonlight, 16 vs 8; if Umbreon is not running Moonlight, it has to run Wish and Protect which uses up one extra moveslot and means you have to make predicts on when to Protect. Recover is not affected by weather conditions.

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Advantages over Yveltal:

- Access to Heal Bell.
- Only takes 12 damage when coming into rocks.

Disadvantages of running Umbreon over Yveltal:

- Dark Aura is overall a better ability than Synchronise, increases Foul Play output.
- Yveltal has access to Defog and Taunt.
- Roost has more PP than moonlight, not affected by weather conditions.
- Yveltal is faster than Umbreon; this allows Yveltal to check non Jolly Swords Dance Z Dusk Mane's, as it can outspeed and OHKO; Umbreon is OHKO'd by a +2 Z Sunsteel strike (calcs below).
- Able to check Ekiller

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Advantages over Mega Sableye:

- Umbreon doesn't take up a mega slot.
- Able to hold an item.
- Access to Heal Bell.
- Slightly bulkier than Mega Sableye; much more HP, which allows it to check SD Outrage variants of Ultra Necrozma, something Mega Sableye cannot do safely.

Disadvantages of running Umbreon over Mega Sableye:

- Magic bounce is superior to Synchronise.
- Recover has more PP than Moonlight, not affected by weather conditions.
- In this case, I think the additional ghost typing is beneficial; it allows Mega Sableye to check X-scissor/Brick Break variants of Ultra, and of course, means it now only has one weakness.
- Able to check Ekiller

Note: Ttar is obviously another relevant dark type in AG but I will not be including it because again, it plays a completely different role to Umbreon.

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Clefable vs Umbreon
175674


I personally think you can draw really real comparisons between Umbreon and Clefable in their place in AG. At worst, I would say Clefable to Fairyceus and Xerneas is similar to Umbreon to Darkceus and Yveltal. Clefable is unique to the two other fairies because it has Heal Bell and unaware. In a similar way, Umbreon is unique compared to its Dark counterparts as it has Heal Bell and some other little niches that are different depending on if you compare Umbreon to Darkceus or to Yveltal. In addition to this, Clefable gets trapped by M Gengar, Umbreon does not, Umbreon has better overall bulk than Clefable and I think more things set up and threaten Clefable than they do Umbreon due to Foul Play. However, the main point is that if Clefable is D rank, then I think for relatively similar reasoning Umbreon should be D rank as well.

+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 528-622 (134.3 - 158.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Ultra Outrage vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 331-391 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Neuroforce Necrozma-Ultra X-Scissor vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 370-436 (94.1 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Neuroforce Necrozma-Ultra Brick Break vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 348-410 (88.5 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Ultra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 291-343 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 190-225 (48.3 - 57.2%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 276-325 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Umbreon: 291-343 (74 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Necrozma-Ultra Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 60 SpD Umbreon: 190-225 (48.3 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 330-390 (98.5 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 433-513 (129.2 - 153.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-910651839 - Heal bell was pretty clutch here, the MU vs Mega Gar could have been much worse if I didn't get the Heal Bell off. Was also able to Toxic the Darkceus and wear it down.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-911336783 - Again, Heal Bell was clutch again as without it I lost to DD Sub Zygarde
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-911319702 - Able to OHKO Dusk, get off the Heal Bell and that was the game over from there pretty much.

There are other replays of Umbreon doing stuff but I've only shown replays where it was better to have Umbreon instead of let's say, Darkceus. I haven't got that many replays because I haven't used Umbreon for super long and I also forget to save them sometimes as well.

Conclusion:

Overall, it's obviously not a perfect Pokemon that has flaws. But isn't that with all the Pokemon in D? I've identified clear niche's it has over its competition, and as a result, I think this counts as a legitimate nom, so I hope the council at least considers this Pokemon thoroughly. This took like an hour and a half to write, so please read and evaluate it and don't write it off straight away. Look forward to AGLT playoffs, see you all then.
This must've taken a while to write up! Solid nom, I'll make sure to ensure that it's taken seriously in the next VR update
  • Honestly, I think that taunt toxic foul play yveltal would be a completely better version of this set if it weren't for heal bell
  • I definitely support this for the fact that heal bell's other viable users on balance are really only Xerneas and Magearna, which is pretty good in this meta of fat arcs
If I've missed any points, feel free to respond and tag me! I'll respond to questions/noms and hopefully be able to answer them or incorporate them into the next VR update!
 

Megazard

The turtle moves
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I just feel with some of the other noms, there's just been a lack of evidence and an element of randomness about some of the changes, including changes made within the council that no one asked for, even though it's the people that make the noms who actually play the game. I don't think it's up to the council to shift it any way they want, it should be left to the users to nom things in my opinion. Ghostceus, Grassceus and Ultra were all fine where they were, but I've only talked about ultra as that's the one I feel the strongest about. However, random stuff coming in and out of D has also seemed extremely weird, Serp was in D and then dropped out immediately, M gyra was raised to D with no real precedent and with no one really using it or providing replays. I'm just looking for some more consistent with where the council wants to go with VR, and I do think the clarification of D rank has helped but we'll wait and see what the future brings.
Some of this is dead wrong, some of this is fine. It's completely unfair to say things like "nobody asked for this" and "lack of evidence and an element of randomness" and "it's the people that make the noms who actually play the game". Council does play the game and we have reasoning behind the nominations that we make internally, and just because someone didn't bring it up in the thread doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. I don't really have an issue for small changes to lower rank mons like Grassceus whatsoever, they're pretty harmless and make the VR better. That being said, we're going to avoid doing council shifts for major high rank changes (see: Unecro) in the future and actually post about stuff like that so people have advance warning and can argue against it if they want.
As far as consistency goes, I wish my fellow council members wouldn't keep changing their minds on the D ranks but that's not really something I can do anything about. My ideal scenario would be a hard no to pretty much every dumb thing that's been nominated but w/e
 

lotiasite

undedgy
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this might be a pretty controversial post but i'll post it anyway!

start off with the easy nom

Naganadel: B- -> B+
if you think naga isn't B+ worthy you haven't faced it. this thing is legitimately one of the scariest sweepers in the current meta. this mon can sweep every bulky team pretty easily. i don't even think it has that hard of a time setting up considering even against offensive teams u still get at least 1 kill with z-draco cause it's hella fast. this thing is also impossible to revenge kill without priority because of beast boost; even with scarf ray if you let it get a kill it outspeeds. yes against offensive teams ray espeed + marsh sneak can neuter this thing, but that means you're still getting a kill on at least one of them. naga's coverage is so ridiculously good with just 3 moves that it's pretty impossible to switch into. stall gets obliterated by this thing unless you have magnemite, which is still able to get taken care of. balance teams cannot deal with this at all because of the lack of priority, and bulky offense you're getting 1 kill minimum to sweep with something else. naga does generally only fit on HO but fills such a good niche on HO by destroying all bulky builds that you're well worth giving it the slot. even B doesn't cut it imo, i think naga is better than mons like skarm and smeargle in B+ and better than all of B, but definitely not going above B+. please raise this.

replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-925554658 vs icemaster, doesnt sweep here but it's a 50% roll to kill groundceus at that range and i just need one more round of rocks to guarantee. sets up on chansey, giratina, and sleeping zyg. didnt risk naga because why would i when it 6-0s clean
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-924414747 vs grn ssnl, couldve won this game easily but i used it badly
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-921745440 vs stall on ladder, i play it really badly here but if magnemite dies or rocks go up (which is easy because +2 outrage from necro kills sableye in this game) naga 6-0s
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-918955850 vs zen ssnl, his naga is extremely threatening even though i have 2 scarfers and killing it with ditto leaves me to die to something else. he does kinda play it badly by switching it into ferro gyro tho.

dont really have many replays cause havent been using it for that long but i hope that shows just even by looking at the teams how threatening naga is.


Necrozma-DM: A+ -> A
this might be controversial but dusk just doesn't feel like an A+ mon anymore. it was easily A+ at the beginning of USM when double dance was sweeping absolutely everyone and spdef was a godlike set, but i never feel like this mon puts in enough work to be considered A+. it's not on the level of pdon and gengar imo, more on the level of groundceus and fairyceus. double dance is still really good imo, people do still sleep on that set, but theres a lot of max def waterceus, groundceus, hooh going around and they just completely mess with this thing to no end. i think most of dusk's viability comes from its ability to go ultra, and ultra is amazing, but that doesn't necessarily correlate with dusk's viability. yes the surprise factor and typing change is fantastic for ultra, but for myself at least every time i see dusk i assume it's ultra unless it's like a team 6-0ed by geoxern. things like poisonceus and hooh and also rising in usage that check kind of the same things as spdef dusk (getting up rocks is nice though) and you really almost always want sd ultra instead of dusk mane. dusk is still really good, dont get me wrong, but not A+ worthy anymore. still one of the best xern checks but you need sunsteel for that, and ultra rarely runs sunsteel, and if youre running offensive dusk/ultra you still need another xern check. in summary dusk is still good but more on A level instead of A+. it doesnt share the same defensive and offensive versatility and sweeping potential as groudon and the huge support of gengar. most of its viability is attributed to ultra necro, so much so that dusk on its own is usually defensive and defensive definitely isn't worth A+.

now for the final hot take

Zygarde-C: S- -> A+
i still don't think we should have an S- rank, but zyg never feels like an S- ranked pokemon to me. yes it's one of the most threatening pokemon with sub dd, but sub dd doesn't sweep as much anymore with support arc like groundceus fairyceus and support darkceus coming into play. glare is one of the most broken moves of all time, yes, and the defensive set imo is really good. but zygarde is not that hard to deal with in my experience. what's worse is that all the mons that check it defog easily, so you can't even keep rocks up half the time. the defensive set suffers from 4mss a little, with glare/coil/rest/sleep talk/t arrows/dtail/toxic/haze/sub (obviously not all those moves fit together but the point still stands), and a resting zygarde is pretty easy to take advantage of if you double switch appriopriately. let's also not forget that zyg still has to get into complete form every game. not the hardest thing in the world to do but can be an issue when you need it to take something like +1 LO ray ascent and it dies because it's not in complete yet. you usually want this thing as your check to mons like ray, sd arc forms, etc but switching in on LO ray ascent hurts and you switch into sd arc forms and can die to z moves because half the time you're not in complete form. offensive zyg is cool but with the attack and speed investment you have little bulk left and a dd zyg isn't doing you many favours defensively. even things you should switch in on and beat like ferro, poisonceus, steelceus, rockceus etc can wisp you on the switch, leech, or cm or something and still deal with you fine. it's definitely been a while since ive seen a zygarde sweep or do anything S- worthy in a game. with gengar support this thing can be a menace, but still checkable and it's difficult to get a sub and enough dd's up to be threatening. this has been a long rant but zygarde hasn't felt like an S- mon for me in a while, not since the SM/early USM days. another thing i forgot to mention is that the rise in outrage on sd ultra necro has been really bad for this thing because you instadie and dont even use the zmove. ultra necro is honestly much better than zyg currently and is way more threatening atm. i understand if people disagree w this but, i honestly don't feel too strongly about this, but something i thought should be brought up.

other than that i think the vr looks really good atm except for maybe deo-s should move up and skarm should move down. dont really have too much of an opinion on other noms but umbreon should be D (robyn showed me how annoying it is), 50/50 on kartana, agree with deo-a to B, yveltal should stay A, and kyogre should stay B-.

hope you all have a great day!
 
Another Viability Rankings Update! Here are the changes that were made:
  • Yveltal from A to A-
  • Umbreon UR to D
  • Naganadel B- to B
  • Groudon D to UR
  • Glalie D to UR
A rather sparse update this time; the sheet with the reasoning for all the votes this time around is linked in the title. As for the rejected nominations, here are some quick notes:
  • Naganadel was agreed to be higher than B-, but it'll take a bit more to push it to B+
  • Kartana and Stakataka haven't shown that they can be justifiably used over the Necrozma-DM/Ultra combo
  • Necrozma-DM, Ultra Necrozma, and Zygarde-C were close votes; feel free to discuss these drops again in the coming month or two.
Overall, there were much fewer changes this time around. The format for voting was changed a little this time, with blind voting at first and discussion afterwards; the votes are displayed in the sheet for anyone that is interested.

With OMPL beginning this week, we will likely wait for the tournament to be over before running another viability ranking update. Hopefully the tournament shows new trends in the metagame!
 
I personally feel MGengar should Be S- however this would be with the push of all the other dragons up a bump. So mray would be S+ while Ultra-necro and zygarde-C would be S. I feel MGengar is just better then both don and duskmane while at the same time just does not par up with the other dragons it don't have there versatility nor there power. It does have roughly the same splashablity as the Don and Duskmane. So for this to be called better I can see why some would say it should just stay A+. Pretty much all of us already kind of know what this mon does. Being a super fast utility trapper and attacker with many different sets between ball/wave/bomb/sub/taunt/song/disable/dbond/cancer hypnosis I feel it just has more ability then the other mons in all of A teir and really Shadow tag + high special + high speed + good typing is just to good in my eyes not to be S- rank. It just does stuff no other mon in the teir can do due to ghost and poison typing and shadow tag and high special. But almost all i of us already kind of got this. So the biggest real reason for it to rise is really because with the ultra-necrozma being S- rank. Mgar is able to revenge kill ultra-necrozma along with mray and even zygarde (only if dbond or if its mono arrows and you have disable) all 3 of the big dragons Guys let me know your thoughts on it being S- with the other dragons being S and ray being S+. The mon has been S- before and still feels as strong.

Other random general stuff I have my opinons about but prob wont happen so may or may not write up: aero zoroark krook rai all D rank yve back to A and mmy to B-
 
Last edited:

pulsar512b

Banned deucer.
I personally feel MGengar should Be S- however this would be with the push of all the other dragons up a bump. So mray would be S+ while Ultra-necro and zygarde-C would be S. I feel MGengar is just better then both don and duskmane while at the same time just does not par up with the other dragons it don't have there versatility nor there power. It does have roughly the same splashablity as the Don and Duskmane. So for this to be called better I can see why some would say it should just stay A+. Pretty much all of us already kind of know what this mon does. Being a super fast utility trapper and attacker with many different sets between ball/wave/bomb/sub/taunt/song/disable/dbond/cancer hypnosis I feel it just has more ability then the other mons in all of A teir and really Shadow tag + high special + high speed + good typing is just to good in my eyes not to be S- rank. It just does stuff no other mon in the teir can do due to ghost and poison typing and shadow tag and high special. But we all already kind of got this. So the biggest real reason for it to rise is really because with the ultra-necrozma being S- rank. Mgar is able to revenge kill ultra-necrozma along with mray and even zygarde (only if dbond or if its mono arrows and you have disable) all 3 of the big dragons Guys let me know your thoughts on it being S- with the other dragons being S and ray being S+. The mon has been S- before and still feels as strong.

Other random general stuff I have my opinons about but prob wont happen so may or may not write up: aero zoroark krook rai all D rank yve back to A and mmy to B-
First is bullshit. Mgengar isn't the best, it's ok vs stall, but it can't really trap much nowadays, due to shed shell. It also has a humongous opportunity cost, giving up mray. It also has shitty defenses. IMO A+ is good for it. And other dragons shouldn't be S, S- is already pushing it IMO. Mray ofc should be S+. And aero to d yeah. Krook only is for bp, so it should be in the special list for that. Darkrai probably D as well.

Nomming now:

Mega Mawile:
Good marsh check, good xern check, high powered. Not much to say, should be ranked as D. It's power is absurd, even outside of TR. In TR, though, its a overpowered sweeper.
 
First is bullshit. Mgengar isn't the best, it's ok vs stall, but it can't really trap much nowadays, due to shed shell. It also has a humongous opportunity cost, giving up mray. It also has shitty defenses. IMO A+ is good for it. And other dragons shouldn't be S, S- is already pushing it IMO. Mray ofc should be S+. And aero to d yeah. Krook only is for bp, so it should be in the special list for that. Darkrai probably D as well.

Nomming now:

Mega Mawile:
Good marsh check, good xern check, high powered. Not much to say, should be ranked as D. It's power is absurd, even outside of TR. In TR, though, its a overpowered sweeper.
Alright this is a edit from like 1 am cuz yo i was to tired before but ok I back.
First and foremost your post is like it written by a guy that never met gengar. The entire meta has so many hit and runners this 1 is special. Its a beast that is special rather then physical like zyg c ray most necro sets marsh ekiller ect we have a special hitter. Also shadow tag is just to much. There is not anyone that runs shed shell besides bliss and thats really only on lance stall even then most times gengar has zygarde or other hitters to back it up no mon can do it all. So really its going to trap a lot. Also yea its a big cost in taking up mega slot but its the best revenge killer in game. Truely its best to see the monster in action slowly sniping weakened mons fairyceus other mono judgment mons and hitting them with disable or sub. No other mon in the game revenge kills like this and a lot of what its killing is arcs and ray and necro The fact marsh is now running pursuit to revenge kill this is saying a lot in its own right because nothing runs shed shell besides lance stall. And so what about crap def its not ment to tank hits it hits and runs dude slowly sniping down 1 threat at a time and even lives non lo sneak from marsh if need be and thats really all it needs to live cuz it outspeeds everything and is immune to espeeds even. The only thing that may hinder its real up rising to S- is perhaps the rise in marsh with pursuit and other checks Ig but hard to say.

Ok second part: TR is just bad. If it lasted longer it would be insane and epic. But it don't so its bad. Therefore with mega mawile it really does rely on sucker punch as its priority gets outpaced by everything else. Sure it hits hard has great typing but it just don't do anything over ray. You didn't give anything that says how its useful over ray in the slightest. Also its not a really good xern check cuz it cant switch in at all just look at some calcs:
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 302-356 (125.3 - 147.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (ok epic)
252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 152-179 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 118-140 (48.9 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 139-164 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 237-279 (98.3 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 277-326 (114.9 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 302-356 (125.3 - 147.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 0 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 222-262 (92.1 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (random z geo if it somehow fully got up)
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Iron Head vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Xerneas: 246-290 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
ok u cant switch in unless its z geo then in that case u can deal with it but idk whos gonna geo when u got maw then. also even 0 spa
0 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 89-105 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
maw can only come in a couple of times after xern hits and runs away so even then its risky
Over all maw does nothing mray really don't or hell even mega lucario for that matter. Both lucario and maw take 0 from rocks where ray takes 25 however lucario still even outclasses maw because its faster hits just about as hard has fighting typing that does a bit more offensively can also run both physical and special. Lucario is so hard to use over mray tho even with its different typing allowing it to slightly fit better on certain teams.
3rd of all: Those other noms I have are gonna be in a separate post so you should comment on them then.
over all no reason to even considering using maw over any other mega even lucario and mgar can just trap stuff cuz no on runs shed shell.
 
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Howdy everyone. I'm back at the ol' lets nom some shit cause need to hit 100 posts for name change. Introducing the mon I have nommed to A+ once before, drum roll please

Marshadow A to A+


Related image
Image result for giant explosion gif


If this was your reaction then.. well, then you clearly think that Marshadow isn't A+ material I guess. In this post I will be talking about what I specifically think about Marshadow. I wont mention what other people might be thinking (in my mind I feel that Marsh gets a bad rap but maybe that's not what the majority actually thinks), cause I cant read minds. Marsh haters can come at me after I make this brief post tho

Lets talk about the most powerful sets

Marshadow @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Hasty Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Pursuit / Toxic / Hidden Power Ice

Marshadow @ Marshadium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak / Substitute

Personally I believe that the Life Orb set is way scarier than the Z Move set. Don't get me wrong, Z Marshadow can be terrifying but.. I think the extra Life Orb damage is crucial for 2hko'ing certain switch ins to Marshadow. Pursuit Marsh has also became a completely legit option as a 4th move due to it being able to effectively remove MGar and heavily chip Goth. In some cases it is also useful for revenge killing say, Regen Ho-Oh or Mega-Rayquaza after its defense is lowered. Toxic is fantastic for breaking defensive Arcs and HpIce makes Zyg-C an unreliable switch in. There's also sub BU which can be especially scary for an opponent who relies on something like Will-O-Wisp Poisonceus or Arceus-Water to check Marshadow. Other than that, normal Z move Marsh is still a good set that can break Defensive Arc once it's chipped.

I'll make some bullet points to sum up what I think warrants a raise for Marsh

  • Gives offense tons of trouble
  • New Arc cores are being used way more on balance, less fairyceus, more icebeam Waterceus/Groundceus/Darkceus. People are scared of MGar + Zyg-C from what I can see. Poisonceus+Darkceus+Waterceus has became popular, Marshadow is able to beat these arcs way easier than Arc-Fairy
  • Very clutch in the later half of most battles, extremely good when few pokemon are left due to it being able to 2hko most switch ins while being incredibly fast and immunte to Espeed
  • Gives stall tons of trouble, very difficult to build a non Marsh weak stall
  • Hugely impacts teambuilding, changes the entirety of AG really. If you stack too many Marsh weak mons together on a team (Darkceus, Steelceus, Rockceus, Ekiller, Ferrothorn, MGar, Lunala, Etc.) it makes it incredibly difficult to win vs Marshadow without having a hard check like Fairyceus
Here are some replays where Marshadow pretty much won the game by existing

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-935292535 marshadow vs hyper offense, marshadow put in massive work due to it being able to threaten -defense mray and steelceus
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-922248499 pursuit kills MGar turn 11. completely changes the flow of the game because MGar is essential to have for trapping Arceus-Fairy and Necrozma Dusk-Mane later on. Pursuit can't be taken as a 50/50 because of how just about every Marsh runs shadow sneak and way less use pursuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-936977469 marsh is able to clean up if i get the tie n hit edge, let me restate, marsh is super clutch near the end of games



Also I think all of the S, S-, and A+ ranks are fine as they are right now (after adding marsh!!)

Lasty, I can see Marshadow being in "the top" of A rank and not reaching A+ cause it's not on the level of MGar or PDon, but I really think Marsh is at least better than DM right now
 
Q
Howdy everyone. I'm back at the ol' lets nom some shit cause need to hit 100 posts for name change. Introducing the mon I have nommed to A+ once before, drum roll please

Marshadow A to A+


Related image
Image result for giant explosion gif


If this was your reaction then.. well, then you clearly think that Marshadow isn't A+ material I guess. In this post I will be talking about what I specifically think about Marshadow. I wont mention what other people might be thinking (in my mind I feel that Marsh gets a bad rap but maybe that's not what the majority actually thinks), cause I cant read minds. Marsh haters can come at me after I make this brief post tho

Lets talk about the most powerful sets

Marshadow @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Hasty Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Pursuit / Toxic / Hidden Power Ice

Marshadow @ Marshadium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak / Substitute

Personally I believe that the Life Orb set is way scarier than the Z Move set. Don't get me wrong, Z Marshadow can be terrifying but.. I think the extra Life Orb damage is crucial for 2hko'ing certain switch ins to Marshadow. Pursuit Marsh has also became a completely legit option as a 4th move due to it being able to effectively remove MGar and heavily chip Goth. In some cases it is also useful for revenge killing say, Regen Ho-Oh or Mega-Rayquaza after its defense is lowered. Toxic is fantastic for breaking defensive Arcs and HpIce makes Zyg-C an unreliable switch in. There's also sub BU which can be especially scary for an opponent who relies on something like Will-O-Wisp Poisonceus or Arceus-Water to check Marshadow. Other than that, normal Z move Marsh is still a good set that can break Defensive Arc once it's chipped.

I'll make some bullet points to sum up what I think warrants a raise for Marsh

  • Gives offense tons of trouble
  • New Arc cores are being used way more on balance, less fairyceus, more icebeam Waterceus/Groundceus/Darkceus. People are scared of MGar + Zyg-C from what I can see. Poisonceus+Darkceus+Waterceus has became popular, Marshadow is able to beat these arcs way easier than Arc-Fairy
  • Very clutch in the later half of most battles, extremely good when few pokemon are left due to it being able to 2hko most switch ins while being incredibly fast and immunte to Espeed
  • Gives stall tons of trouble, very difficult to build a non Marsh weak stall
  • Hugely impacts teambuilding, changes the entirety of AG really. If you stack too many Marsh weak mons together on a team (Darkceus, Steelceus, Rockceus, Ekiller, Ferrothorn, MGar, Lunala, Etc.) it makes it incredibly difficult to win vs Marshadow without having a hard check like Fairyceus
Here are some replays where Marshadow pretty much won the game by existing

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-935292535 marshadow vs hyper offense, marshadow put in massive work due to it being able to threaten -defense mray and steelceus
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-922248499 pursuit kills MGar turn 11. completely changes the flow of the game because MGar is essential to have for trapping Arceus-Fairy and Necrozma Dusk-Mane later on. Pursuit can't be taken as a 50/50 because of how just about every Marsh runs shadow sneak and way less use pursuit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-936977469 marsh is able to clean up if i get the tie n hit edge, let me restate, marsh is super clutch near the end of games



Also I think all of the S, S-, and A+ ranks are fine as they are right now (after adding marsh!!)

Lasty, I can see Marshadow being in "the top" of A rank and not reaching A+ cause it's not on the level of MGar or PDon, but I really think Marsh is at least better than DM right now
Doesn't even mention sacred threads marsh

:puff:
 
Just going to make some noms this time trying to go 5 posts in a row without getting one deleted

183605
Tyranitar B+ -> A-

This Pokémon is sooo good, I don't even know where to begin. Obviously first and foremost it's the most reliable pursuit user in the game, which means that it's able to deal with Mega Gengar and most forms of Mega Rayquaza, which opens up a whole new world of building opportunities honestly. Stuff like Skarm, Grassceus, Chansey are much more accessible (not a fan of shed shell skarm at all), while also giving very nice to support to excellent Pokémon like Poisonceus and Fairyceus. This Pokémon is just able to hold teams together solely because of it's typing and ability to pursuit.

Shuca berry also allows it to just beat stuff it has absolutely no right to, like DD Mega Rayquaza, EQ Ekiller variants after some chip, all non EQ EKiller variants, Ultra Necro (sunsteel ultra is pretty much off the radar now), get some important chip on offensive Pdon. Ttar also gets a special bonus because it's able to beat the butterfly, which honestly is great because perish song users like Rockceus and Steelceus are just not that great picks in general in my opinion, as they're hard to fit on a good team.

Sandsteam as an ability is also just way too good. The Spdef buff is just insane, meaning special attacks just do 0 unless they're super effective, CM U Necro just does absolutely nothing to this beast. People also really underestimate how useful sandstream chip is. Not only does it chip away at the opposing team, but it's ability to get past Focus Sash users and make things in revenge killing range which is just way too useful to pass up.

Also just want to mention this thing can wall really annoying stuff like Ho-Oh, it's like you got 5 mons that straight up lose to Ho-Oh but then you just add Tar and it's all fine. Not many Pokémon can really wall Ho-Oh per se, only Zygarde C/Rest Pogre/Refresh Rockceus come to mind, so thought it was worth the mention. Same with Poisonceus which can be super annoying if you don't have any fire types, it can soak up the Poison/Burn, get some chip on Poison and just rest up. Basically just trying to say it's very nice at switching in to passive stuff and absorbing status as it can rest and chip it with sandstorm.

Ttar is by no means perfect. It has no versatility, rest as recovery can be annoying, though I think it's personally fine for Tar, and the slight increase in the use of Dragon Moves on Mega Rayquaza all hurt it slightly. All that being said though, this Pokémon is extremely unique, no other Pokémon can do what Ttar does and for me I think it's a cut above Rockceus, which is currently in the same rank. Definitely worth considering a raise in my opinion.

183609
Vivillon B+ -> B

This thing had it's hayday but it's usage now is pretty non existent and people are much more aware of how to beat it. Sure it's like it can randomly 6-0, but nowhere near as reliably as it used to and in the current meta I don't think it's that solid a pick. Can't remember the last time I saw it used in a tour game, not much else to say other than the fact people prep for this more (Raising usage of ttar definitely supports this) and I think lack of usage should reflect a drop in viability.

183610
Toxapex C -> B-

I think pex is honestly pretty underrated and deserves a little more recognition. It's pretty much the only t spikes user available to balance which already means it's a pretty big deal as t spikes is terrifying, the only thing that really undermines t spikes is high poisonceus usage but this can be got around but running stuff like Mega Gengar/CM Ground/Sub BU Marsh which are all good picks. Basically saying that if you got good teammates you can take advantage of t spikes reasonably well so pex is still a good pick. It totally can also wall some big threats, like BU Marsh, CM Arc forms, Defensive Pogre, Non EQ Ekiller variants, Ho-Oh, and honestly Geo Xern. Geo Xern pretty much always runs Psyshock over an electric move, and Pex can take a psyshock like a complete boss if it's phy defence invested (which it usually is), so this is honestly a major bonus that was not applicable before and should most certainly be considering when thinking about Pex's viability right now in ag. Shed Shell Pex honestly works fine, so I don't think trapping is a real big issue when considering Toxapex. Overall a complete nuisance, being able to spread burns with scald or annoy support arc forms with Toxic depending on the set, and while this Pokémon is pretty passive B- is not that high a rank anyway, so certainly deserves the raise.

183615
Grassceus C -> B-

I didn't really agree with this going down in the first place so I'm obviously going to try and nom it back up. Something about Ditto and Dialga being the same rank as Grassceus just didn't sit right with me. Grassceus is good for role compression, nothing else is able to be a Pogre/Groundceus/Xern check in one. As its an arc forme it's movepool is very strong, grassceus is pretty unpredictable being able to run SR/T wave/Roar/Wisp/Defog/P song/Ice Beam all reasonably well, with grass knot that does a decent chunk to anything that doesn't resist. The utility moves and being able to run all status moves just make it a nuisance to play against overall. Grassceus is able to differentiate itself from Ferrothorn with ease, and while Ferrothorn is the better Pokémon in my opinion Grassceus does hold a distinctive niche in that it can deal with specs ogre, not as passive, has a wider movepool and can somewhat check Xern with Roar. Also, it's the only Pogre check that can actually deal with Zygarde and SD Ground reasonably well, due to ground resist and grass knot does a ton to both. Overall it's pretty underrated, it obviously has flaws but again B- isn't amazing anyways, I know game mod said some stuff about grassceus in their rmt so I guess you could go check that out as well if you're still not convinced.

Pretty lowkey noms but I like to get my thoughts out there, will probably make more noms after OMPL has concluded. Totally agree with Skarph's marsh nom to A+ btw
 
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Finally getting around to some other random stuff

Aerodactyl to D:
Ok this rock bird is just such a good suicide lead. It has 130 speed rock tomb to lower the speed stats of other mons it has rocks it has tailwind it has taunt and even defog for niche as well. Its main niches over other big suicide leads (namely deo-s) is that it works better on teams that don't need the magic coat support or have it else where (like psyspam) and rather much more so need tailwind or rock tomb + it still outpaces everything just like deo-s with the 130 speed. It seems to be pretty solid on all hos and works with some smash pass teams. Over all the tailwind support i feel makes it D rank to use over deo-s for some teams

MMY to B-:
This mon just does less damage then regular mewtwo with life orb takes up mega slot and only works on very specific balances
The speed increase and other general boost does allow it to do some m2 can't by outpacing gar and such but generally is outclassed by mewtwo and really this mon in general feels weak maybe i just underrate it but it does not feel on the same level at m2 to me

Mgyara to ur:
I suppose being a stall breaker is nice and all and thats about all it does. However if you really wanna counter stall just use heatran and don't take up your mega slot or also use band ray perhaps This thing just is a complete waste and another mon i never seen or cant remember seeing on any legit team where as another physical hitter mluke actually has some niches over ray weird how we keep this and remove the other. Just really weird and this mon just is a complete waste in my eyes

Mega bro to ur:
Similar kind of just flat waste as Mgyara is. Tanks slightly better then other stall megas but is generally just completely outclassed or unwanted because of either msab or mtar or hell even mvenu this thing just is not doing much vs any other stall mega and is well the only place to use it.
 

pulsar512b

Banned deucer.
Finally getting around to some other random stuff

Aerodactyl to D:
Ok this rock bird is just such a good suicide lead. It has 130 speed rock tomb to lower the speed stats of other mons it has rocks it has tailwind it has taunt and even defog for niche as well. Its main niches over other big suicide leads (namely deo-s) is that it works better on teams that don't need the magic coat support or have it else where (like psyspam) and rather much more so need tailwind or rock tomb + it still outpaces everything just like deo-s with the 130 speed. It seems to be pretty solid on all hos and works with some smash pass teams. Over all the tailwind support i feel makes it D rank to use over deo-s for some teams

MMY to B-:
This mon just does less damage then regular mewtwo with life orb takes up mega slot and only works on very specific balances
The speed increase and other general boost does allow it to do some m2 can't by outpacing gar and such but generally is outclassed by mewtwo and really this mon in general feels weak maybe i just underrate it but it does not feel on the same level at m2 to me

Mgyara to ur:
I suppose being a stall breaker is nice and all and thats about all it does. However if you really wanna counter stall just use heatran and don't take up your mega slot or also use band ray perhaps This thing just is a complete waste and another mon i never seen or cant remember seeing on any legit team where as another physical hitter mluke actually has some niches over ray weird how we keep this and remove the other. Just really weird and this mon just is a complete waste in my eyes

Mega bro to ur:
Similar kind of just flat waste as Mgyara is. Tanks slightly better then other stall megas but is generally just completely outclassed or unwanted because of either msab or mtar or hell even mvenu this thing just is not doing much vs any other stall mega and is well the only place to use it.
Agree with aerodactyl. It's also really good for psyspam since it can keep rocks off, which basically no other lead can guarantee.
MMY... i wouldnt say its outclassed. better speed tier, more spatk, but I don't really have much of an opinion for this one. I would generally agree, just due to its physical fraility. MGyara is admittedly pretty bad. I would push it to UR. I wasn't even aware mega bro was even in the VR lol, that says all that is needed
 
Finally getting around to some other random stuff

Aerodactyl to D:
Ok this rock bird is just such a good suicide lead. It has 130 speed rock tomb to lower the speed stats of other mons it has rocks it has tailwind it has taunt and even defog for niche as well. Its main niches over other big suicide leads (namely deo-s) is that it works better on teams that don't need the magic coat support or have it else where (like psyspam) and rather much more so need tailwind or rock tomb + it still outpaces everything just like deo-s with the 130 speed. It seems to be pretty solid on all hos and works with some smash pass teams. Over all the tailwind support i feel makes it D rank to use over deo-s for some teams

MMY to B-:
This mon just does less damage then regular mewtwo with life orb takes up mega slot and only works on very specific balances
The speed increase and other general boost does allow it to do some m2 can't by outpacing gar and such but generally is outclassed by mewtwo and really this mon in general feels weak maybe i just underrate it but it does not feel on the same level at m2 to me

Mgyara to ur:
I suppose being a stall breaker is nice and all and thats about all it does. However if you really wanna counter stall just use heatran and don't take up your mega slot or also use band ray perhaps This thing just is a complete waste and another mon i never seen or cant remember seeing on any legit team where as another physical hitter mluke actually has some niches over ray weird how we keep this and remove the other. Just really weird and this mon just is a complete waste in my eyes

Mega bro to ur:
Similar kind of just flat waste as Mgyara is. Tanks slightly better then other stall megas but is generally just completely outclassed or unwanted because of either msab or mtar or hell even mvenu this thing just is not doing much vs any other stall mega and is well the only place to use it.
Mega gyarados can do something heatran can't do and that is be a general offensive presence even outside of the stall matchup, I don't have any replays but gyarados is able to set up on plenty of metagame threats such as Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, unecro, pdon ect. And with dragon Dance and decent offensive stats it is able to achieve sweeps. Although heatran doesn't waste a mega slot it is often dead weight in some matchups where mega gyarados does very well

Mega bro definitely shouldn't be ur, with unecro being a major threat having mega bro as a check is very useful. It also has a massive defense stat and reliable recovery allowing it to check some of the metatames top physical attackers

I agree with the other two noms though, personally I prefer regular mewtwo over mmy and aero is a very solid lead with an amazing lead mu spread
 

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