Resource USUM AG Viability Rankings

—> D
Why was puff unranked? It does a great job of setting webs then forcing switches using yawn / crippling mons with endeavour. The fact that it gets access to magic coat helps to make up for its lack of rocks, and means that is difficult to taunt against slurpuff. Slurpuff definitely deserves to be in D. Additionally, it’s far and away my favorite websetter because of its offensive potential after it sets webs, provided you’re running the endeavour set.
—> D

Aero 100% deserves D at least. It’s a strong rocks lead with which I’ve had some success on ladder. The fact that it has access to rock tomb, taunt, and defog allows it to reliably keep opposing hazards off while ensuring that its own get down. Ik this just got rejected, but I don’t really think that trying to keep D uncluttered is a sound reason for keeping this strong suicide lead off the VR. If you want to unclutter D, just make a C- rank or something. Some examples of Aero’s mus vs common leads are below:

Vs Deo S:
It chips deo down, even if deo taunts it, and once deoxys dies, aero can taunt something or just defog away the rocks, then likely set is own rocks, or if your opponent brings up a sweeper then aero can cripple it using rock tomb, or kill it outright if it’s a Ho-oh.

Vs. Shuckle:
Taunt, break the mental herb, then taunt again, then defog off the webs / rocks, while whittling down shuckle’s health with rock tomb. Shuckle does literally nothing to this guy, even if aero gets encored into taunt or something similar.

Vs. Smeargle:
Aero taunts t1, then smeargle can’t do anything. Even if it’s a nuzzle set, smeargle still gets killed with rock tomb, and aero still gets rocks down and defogs off smeargle’s webs.

Vs. Pdon:
Aero taunts t1, then sets rocks. If it’s an offensive don set, then aero still gets rocks down and you’re fine. If it’s a defensive set, don can’t get its rocks down, and then gets whittled down with rock tomb before it finally kills aero, having been unable to set its own rocks due to being constantly taunted.

Vs. Spdef Dusk Mane:
Aero taunts turn 1, then sets its own rocks then dies. Pretty straightforward. Also, pressure helps you chip down sunsteel since they’ll have to use it a few times to kill you. This means that you can effectively halve their total uses of sunsteel.

Note: these are overgeneralized, but my point remains that aerodactyl performs very well versus most common lead mons. Aero is a solid suicide lead that is capable of chipping mons and keeping opposing rocks off while setting its own. The fact that aero to D was rejected “in order to not have a 70-mon D rank” is a travesty. If I had to chose a mon to use on my team, I’d use aero over any D-ranked mons except maybe koko. Aerodactyl is 100% deserving of D-rank at least. It’s easily one of the best rocks suicide leads in ag. Sorry for the rant, and have a nice day.

E: grammar fix
 
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I don't get why so many people want 50 billion+ mons that might be useful sometimes in D tier but whatever. Shedinja, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Wobbuffet and Arceus-Electric are the only mons there that even deserve to be on the list as far as I'm concerned (Tapu Koko being this low is a travesty btw).

Anyway, I wanted to share my own view on the S and A ranks. I'm not necessarily making any nom, just trying to maybe spark some discussion and share my views. (Wall of text incoming).

S+ Rank
Rayquaza-Mega
S Rank
Groudon-Primal
S- Rank
Kyogre-Primal
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
A+ Rank
Marshadow
Zygarde-Complete
A Rank
Arceus-Water
Ho-Oh
Arceus-Fairy
Arceus-Ground
Arceus-Dark
Gengar-Mega
Arceus
Xerneas
Arceus-Poison
Tyranitar
A- Rank
Yveltal
Necrozma-Ultra
Mewtwo-Mega-Y
Ferrothorn
Lunala
Skarmory
Smeargle
Chansey
Gothitelle

S+ Rank
Broken mon doing broken things.
S Rank
I think Pdon is the closest thing to Mega-Rayquaza in terms of how ridiculous it is. It soft checks so many annoying Pokemons while posing an offensive threat that it's just silly. This is a Pokemon that can run a dedicated wallbreaker set with SD/Eruption/Pblades/RockTomb and STILL have the ability to check Xerneas, DuskMane, Kyogre and so on in an emergency. I think the utility, versatility (Wallbreaker, Sweeper, Defensive Rocks, Offensive Rocks, ...) and consistency across every matchup of Groudon is just insane, so it should be ranked as such.

S- Rank
I know everyone likes to talk about how Gengar is "a high skill mon that requires a really good player to be used to its fullest" and how "to be fair, you need a very high IQ to make decisions with Gengar" (lol), but I feel Kyogre deserves those comments much more so than Gengar does. It has such a massive skill ceiling when used properly that it's not even funny. The WaterSpout/OriginPulse/Thunder/Ice Beam set is so daunting for stall and balance teams that it can lead to game wins almost by itself (Ferrothorn takes 50%+ from Spout and Chansey is forced to SoftBoil every time it comes in, setting up free switches to get advantage; SupportCeus just straight up die to this thing). I think most people play too scared with it, not switching it in when they could, or they just let it stay in when they should clearly be switching out.
Now, I know the argument against Kyogre being anywhere near this high: "It's bad against bulky offense and especially offense". Honestly? Even against those teams Kyogre can usually still atleast trade and threaten Pdon or DuskMane. Bulky offense teams still run like 2 supportCeus most of the time, which Kyogre can easily capitalize on (unless if you're playing one of those 5 Arceus+MegaRay teams that run spdf Arceus-Grass I guess).
May I ask what DuskMane is doing that low on the list? Yes, its offensive sets suck and get stopped cold by Arceus-Water/Dark, Skarmory, Ho-Oh and so on... However, its spdf rocks set is, in my opinion, the best stealth rock setter and it's not even close. It gets a ton of opportunities to setup rocks, wins hazard wars that it straight up should not be able to win (it literally 1v1s Defog Ho-Oh lmao), checks Xerneas better than every other Xerneas check, switches for free on almost every supportCeus and trades toxic for 40% damage on supereffective hits that it can just easily heal back later. I usually see people talking about how it's setup fodder for offensive DuskMane, but if that set is falling out of favour and we can all agree that it isn't hard to stop, then how much does that actually matter? I think giving opportunities to Groudon and Kyogre are much more vaid concerns, honestly. Oh, and try running SolganiumZ instead of leftovers. You wouldn't believe the amount of jank kills you can get (flashbacks to killing a Chansey at 64% health that taught it could just click SoftBoiled for free).

A+ Rank
Some people think Marshadow sucks because it's bad against balance and most stall teams. Other people think it is this S rank mon because of how good it is against offense. Personally, I think I stand somewhere in the middle. Marshadow is honestly just incredible against offense, since it turns every bit of chip damage caused by a teamate into a kill, as it outspeeds like 99% of the meta and gets supereffective Shadow Sneaks against almost everything else. Between Close Combat and Spectral Thief it can be pretty daunting for offense teams to even switch into this thing. It also matchups up well against a lot of offense mainstays like Rayquaza, EKiller and UltraNecrozma. But yes, it clearly has issues against more defensive teams where it always seem to not deal enough damage. I actually find Toxic to be the best move in the last slot because of this, since it atleast lets you bait in supportCeus and start chipping at them. As a whole, Marshadow is a bit inconsistent, but when it works it really does wonders.
Zygarde is sick. Glare is just such a stupid move in so many ways and both the offensive and deffensive set use it wonderfully. As a sweeper it can punnish switch-ins pretty harshly and later sub up as they come in weakened and potentially just cheese the things meant to stop it. As a tank it annoys a lot of offensive threats, especially Pdon, while still having some offensive presence with ThousandArrows and Coil. However, its offensive set can be inconsistent and its defensive set can be cheesed by things it is supposed to stop a bit too easily, imo, so it doesn't deserve to be higher.

(Now I'll only talk about a couple of important ones because I have other things to do lol)

A Rank
Does Arceus-Water suffer from not being able to run 6 moves at the same time? Yes, it does. But if it could, it would very likely be S Tier. It is just such an annoying Pokemon to break and one of the best tools stall teams have to stop wallbreakers. Not running SD on your Pdon? Too bad, it won't do anything the whole game. Not running Thunder on your Kyogre? Too bad, toxic stall time. It has a massive deffensive presence that should not be underestimated in any capacity.
Ho-Oh is amazing at stopping a lot of things and it can just live forever with Recover+Regenerator. Now, I don't think Stealth Rocks is that much of an issue, with all of the Defog support available, but rock type coverage is. There are a lot of scenarios where if you don't play around the fact that, say, Groudon or Marshadow have a rock type move, you can just drop dead and be put in a really awkward position. Meanwhile if you play too carefully around that, your teamates can end up punnished instead.
Gengar is cute and all, but it frankly rellies too much on your opponent playing passively. All it takes is facing an opponent willing to Judgment/Liquidation with Arceus-Water on the switch and now you just won't do anything anymore. Tyranitar also just shuts it down super hard, since if you decide to mega evolve and they switch into it (Shadow Tag isn't active yet) then you just get pursuit trapped after accomplishing nothing. Can you run Focus Blast for this? Sure, but that gives up a super valuable slot (all of that just to miss and die to Pursuit anyway lmao). I also just feel that it isn't as splashable as Mega Rayquaza.
EKiller and Xerneas can be deadly in the right situation, but they are just super inconsistent. Their saving grace is having some utility, like revenge killing against offense or checking Marshadow+Yveltal, respectively.
Tyranitar is extremelly underrated. It is easily one of the best Pokemon for stall teams, and pretty great in balance teams as well. I'm talking about the Shucca Berry physically deffensive set with Foul Play/Pursuit/2 other moves. It is surprisingly annoying to deal with, since it can do stuff like switch into Dragon Ascend/V-Create and then threaten Foul Play/Pursuit, while Earthquake only does ~50% at +1 with Life Orb because of the Shucca Berry.

A- Rank
Yveltal is washed, as much as I hate to admit it.
Necrozma-Ultra is nowhere near as good as everyone says it is. It gets revenge killed so easily that it's not even funny. Marshadow, Mewtwo-Y, Mega Rayquaza's Espeed, ScarfYveltal, Yveltal's Sucker Punch, deffensive Yveltal's Foul Play, ScarfXerneas, EKiller, Arceus-Dark, Mega Gengar and who know how many other mons can all just drop it dead after some or even no chip damage. "But it always gets a kill, which opens up the opponent to be cleaned up by other Pokemon". My problems with that are (i) other mons do that way better (AKA the hoen trio) and (ii) All it takes is not having the right coverage and it can straight up just not even do that. For instance, it can technically beat Arceus-Dark with X-scissor or Yveltal on the switch with Stone Edge, but those moves are hard to fit and can make you get stopped by other things. It also loses all deffensive utility after transforming. I don't know, I really don't get how this thing is as high as it is.
Mewtwo Y just kills. Like, it actually just smashes those do nothing balance teams that people love using for some reason. It can also just 6-0 stall and as much as Marshadow makes it want to cry, it can still pressure offense by killing things like Necrozma Ultra or Groudon after some chip damage.
Skarmory is so good but so bad. Like, it just makes non-fire move Rayquaza, Groudon and EKiller question their own existance, but it also just drops to any special move stronger than Water Gun.
Smeargle is a very good lead on HO and wins tempo against most other leads with Spore/Nuzzle/Rapid Spin/Spikes or something along those lines. It also works on webs and BP, but those playstyles suck so that doesn't really matter.
Chansey is a stall staple and should be ranked high enough to represent that.
Gothitelle is super matchup fishy, but when it works it works.
 
I don't get why so many people want 50 billion+ mons that might be useful sometimes in D tier but whatever. Shedinja, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Wobbuffet and Arceus-Electric are the only mons there that even deserve to be on the list as far as I'm concerned (Tapu Koko being this low is a travesty btw).

Anyway, I wanted to share my own view on the S and A ranks. I'm not necessarily making any nom, just trying to maybe spark some discussion and share my views. (Wall of text incoming).

S+ Rank
Rayquaza-Mega
S Rank
Groudon-Primal
S- Rank
Kyogre-Primal
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
A+ Rank
Marshadow
Zygarde-Complete
A Rank
Arceus-Water
Ho-Oh
Arceus-Fairy
Arceus-Ground
Arceus-Dark
Gengar-Mega
Arceus
Xerneas
Arceus-Poison
Tyranitar
A- Rank
Yveltal
Necrozma-Ultra
Mewtwo-Mega-Y
Ferrothorn
Lunala
Skarmory
Smeargle
Chansey
Gothitelle

S+ Rank
Broken mon doing broken things.
S Rank
I think Pdon is the closest thing to Mega-Rayquaza in terms of how ridiculous it is. It soft checks so many annoying Pokemons while posing an offensive threat that it's just silly. This is a Pokemon that can run a dedicated wallbreaker set with SD/Eruption/Pblades/RockTomb and STILL have the ability to check Xerneas, DuskMane, Kyogre and so on in an emergency. I think the utility, versatility (Wallbreaker, Sweeper, Defensive Rocks, Offensive Rocks, ...) and consistency across every matchup of Groudon is just insane, so it should be ranked as such.

S- Rank
I know everyone likes to talk about how Gengar is "a high skill mon that requires a really good player to be used to its fullest" and how "to be fair, you need a very high IQ to make decisions with Gengar" (lol), but I feel Kyogre deserves those comments much more so than Gengar does. It has such a massive skill ceiling when used properly that it's not even funny. The WaterSpout/OriginPulse/Thunder/Ice Beam set is so daunting for stall and balance teams that it can lead to game wins almost by itself (Ferrothorn takes 50%+ from Spout and Chansey is forced to SoftBoil every time it comes in, setting up free switches to get advantage; SupportCeus just straight up die to this thing). I think most people play too scared with it, not switching it in when they could, or they just let it stay in when they should clearly be switching out.
Now, I know the argument against Kyogre being anywhere near this high: "It's bad against bulky offense and especially offense". Honestly? Even against those teams Kyogre can usually still atleast trade and threaten Pdon or DuskMane. Bulky offense teams still run like 2 supportCeus most of the time, which Kyogre can easily capitalize on (unless if you're playing one of those 5 Arceus+MegaRay teams that run spdf Arceus-Grass I guess).
May I ask what DuskMane is doing that low on the list? Yes, its offensive sets suck and get stopped cold by Arceus-Water/Dark, Skarmory, Ho-Oh and so on... However, its spdf rocks set is, in my opinion, the best stealth rock setter and it's not even close. It gets a ton of opportunities to setup rocks, wins hazard wars that it straight up should not be able to win (it literally 1v1s Defog Ho-Oh lmao), checks Xerneas better than every other Xerneas check, switches for free on almost every supportCeus and trades toxic for 40% damage on supereffective hits that it can just easily heal back later. I usually see people talking about how it's setup fodder for offensive DuskMane, but if that set is falling out of favour and we can all agree that it isn't hard to stop, then how much does that actually matter? I think giving opportunities to Groudon and Kyogre are much more vaid concerns, honestly. Oh, and try running SolganiumZ instead of leftovers. You wouldn't believe the amount of jank kills you can get (flashbacks to killing a Chansey at 64% health that taught it could just click SoftBoiled for free).

A+ Rank
Some people think Marshadow sucks because it's bad against balance and most stall teams. Other people think it is this S rank mon because of how good it is against offense. Personally, I think I stand somewhere in the middle. Marshadow is honestly just incredible against offense, since it turns every bit of chip damage caused by a teamate into a kill, as it outspeeds like 99% of the meta and gets supereffective Shadow Sneaks against almost everything else. Between Close Combat and Spectral Thief it can be pretty daunting for offense teams to even switch into this thing. It also matchups up well against a lot of offense mainstays like Rayquaza, EKiller and UltraNecrozma. But yes, it clearly has issues against more defensive teams where it always seem to not deal enough damage. I actually find Toxic to be the best move in the last slot because of this, since it atleast lets you bait in supportCeus and start chipping at them. As a whole, Marshadow is a bit inconsistent, but when it works it really does wonders.
Zygarde is sick. Glare is just such a stupid move in so many ways and both the offensive and deffensive set use it wonderfully. As a sweeper it can punnish switch-ins pretty harshly and later sub up as they come in weakened and potentially just cheese the things meant to stop it. As a tank it annoys a lot of offensive threats, especially Pdon, while still having some offensive presence with ThousandArrows and Coil. However, its offensive set can be inconsistent and its defensive set can be cheesed by things it is supposed to stop a bit too easily, imo, so it doesn't deserve to be higher.

(Now I'll only talk about a couple of important ones because I have other things to do lol)

A Rank
Does Arceus-Water suffer from not being able to run 6 moves at the same time? Yes, it does. But if it could, it would very likely be S Tier. It is just such an annoying Pokemon to break and one of the best tools stall teams have to stop wallbreakers. Not running SD on your Pdon? Too bad, it won't do anything the whole game. Not running Thunder on your Kyogre? Too bad, toxic stall time. It has a massive deffensive presence that should not be underestimated in any capacity.
Ho-Oh is amazing at stopping a lot of things and it can just live forever with Recover+Regenerator. Now, I don't think Stealth Rocks is that much of an issue, with all of the Defog support available, but rock type coverage is. There are a lot of scenarios where if you don't play around the fact that, say, Groudon or Marshadow have a rock type move, you can just drop dead and be put in a really awkward position. Meanwhile if you play too carefully around that, your teamates can end up punnished instead.
Gengar is cute and all, but it frankly rellies too much on your opponent playing passively. All it takes is facing an opponent willing to Judgment/Liquidation with Arceus-Water on the switch and now you just won't do anything anymore. Tyranitar also just shuts it down super hard, since if you decide to mega evolve and they switch into it (Shadow Tag isn't active yet) then you just get pursuit trapped after accomplishing nothing. Can you run Focus Blast for this? Sure, but that gives up a super valuable slot (all of that just to miss and die to Pursuit anyway lmao). I also just feel that it isn't as splashable as Mega Rayquaza.
EKiller and Xerneas can be deadly in the right situation, but they are just super inconsistent. Their saving grace is having some utility, like revenge killing against offense or checking Marshadow+Yveltal, respectively.
Tyranitar is extremelly underrated. It is easily one of the best Pokemon for stall teams, and pretty great in balance teams as well. I'm talking about the Shucca Berry physically deffensive set with Foul Play/Pursuit/2 other moves. It is surprisingly annoying to deal with, since it can do stuff like switch into Dragon Ascend/V-Create and then threaten Foul Play/Pursuit, while Earthquake only does ~50% at +1 with Life Orb because of the Shucca Berry.

A- Rank
Yveltal is washed, as much as I hate to admit it.
Necrozma-Ultra is nowhere near as good as everyone says it is. It gets revenge killed so easily that it's not even funny. Marshadow, Mewtwo-Y, Mega Rayquaza's Espeed, ScarfYveltal, Yveltal's Sucker Punch, deffensive Yveltal's Foul Play, ScarfXerneas, EKiller, Arceus-Dark, Mega Gengar and who know how many other mons can all just drop it dead after some or even no chip damage. "But it always gets a kill, which opens up the opponent to be cleaned up by other Pokemon". My problems with that are (i) other mons do that way better (AKA the hoen trio) and (ii) All it takes is not having the right coverage and it can straight up just not even do that. For instance, it can technically beat Arceus-Dark with X-scissor or Yveltal on the switch with Stone Edge, but those moves are hard to fit and can make you get stopped by other things. It also loses all deffensive utility after transforming. I don't know, I really don't get how this thing is as high as it is.
Mewtwo Y just kills. Like, it actually just smashes those do nothing balance teams that people love using for some reason. It can also just 6-0 stall and as much as Marshadow makes it want to cry, it can still pressure offense by killing things like Necrozma Ultra or Groudon after some chip damage.
Skarmory is so good but so bad. Like, it just makes non-fire move Rayquaza, Groudon and EKiller question their own existance, but it also just drops to any special move stronger than Water Gun.
Smeargle is a very good lead on HO and wins tempo against most other leads with Spore/Nuzzle/Rapid Spin/Spikes or something along those lines. It also works on webs and BP, but those playstyles suck so that doesn't really matter.
Chansey is a stall staple and should be ranked high enough to represent that.
Gothitelle is super matchup fishy, but when it works it works.
Isn’t S sorta reserved for mons that don’t have any real counters? Last time I checked defensive waterceus did an amazing job of walling pdon, as does defensive ogre, etc, etc. Also I don’t really think that a massive shakeup of the entire VR is in order, and certainly not moving Pdon to S. It’s S in ubers for a reason, but it’s not nearly that gamebreaking here in ag, because of the wide variety of potential checks and counters. Also: I can’t see any universe in which gothi and smeargle both deserve A-minus. Smeargle is super easy to counter with any taunter ever or just by using koko. Gothitelle, too, is in no way deserving of A-minus. It’s good vs some teams, but even then, it’s super easy to play around. Also, Skarm doesn’t deserve A-minus either. It flat out loses to any mon that’s running any fire move ever, and loses 1v1 to just about any support arc. It’s just not that great in AG. Chansey and Ttar are also way too niche for A-minus or A. They fit only on stall and semistall, and tar isn’t even that good of ray check since ray kills it with an eq on a predicted switchin. Your ranking suggestions give me the impression that you’re treating A- as some sort of B/C rank, and A as like B rank, and so on. I think all of the top tiers of the AG vr are pretty solid with where their mons are, aside from the travesty that is zyg c being dropped from S-. If unecro’s in S-, zygarde-complete 100% deserves it. Zygarde complete can just run so many sets: its defensive ones wall most the main physical attackers in ag, and its offensive sets can easily set up on most passive mons. In all honesty, I think this list is based off little to no actual information about these mons, and ignore all playstyles other than balance and stall. Also: Pogre doesn’t deserve S-. What are you THINKING? It’s way too easy to check.

E: grammar fix
 
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Isn’t S sorta reserved for mons that don’t have any real counters? Last time I checked defensive waterceus did an amazing job of walling pdon, as does defensive ogre, etc, etc. Also I don’t really think that a massive shakeup of the entire VR is in order, and certainly not moving Pdon to S. It’s S in ubers for a reason, but it’s not nearly that gamebreaking here in ag, because of the wide variety of potential checks and counters. Also: I can’t see any universe in which gothi and smeargle both deserve A-minus. Smeargle is super easy to counter with any taunter ever or just by using koko. Gothitelle, too, is in no way deserving of A-minus. It’s good vs some teams, but even then, it’s super easy to play around. Also, Skarm doesn’t deserve A-minus either. It flat out loses to any mon that’s running any fire move ever, and loses 1v1 to just about any support arc. It’s just not that great in AG. Chansey and Ttar are also way too niche for A-minus or A. They fit only on stall and semistall, and tar isn’t even that good of ray check since ray kills it with an eq on a predicted switchin. Your ranking suggestions give me the impression that you’re treating A- as some sort of B/C rank, and A as like B rank, and so on. I think all of the top tiers of the AG vr are pretty solid with where their mons are, aside from the travesty that is zyg c being dropped from S-. If unecro’s in S-, zygarde-complete 100% deserves it. Zygarde complete can just run so many sets: its defensive ones wall most the main physical attackers in ag, and its offensive sets can easily set up on most passive mons. In all honesty, I think this list is based off little to no actual information about these mons, and ignore all playstyles other than balance and stall. Also: Pogre doesn’t deserve S-. What are you THINKING. It’s way too easy to check.
Oh, I don't want some massive shakeup or whatever on the list. Like I mentioned at the start of my other post, I just wanted to share my personal (and some of them very controversial, I know) opinions.
I think saying defensive waterceus walls pdon is oversimplifying it. If it runs SD, which it often does, than it straight up just beats it.
I really don't expect anyone to agree with my opinion on Kyogre lol, by all means disagree.
On Goth, Skarm and Smeargle... Yeah, maybe A- is too good for them. I do agree they have a lot of problems.
 
Hii, my first nomination and hopefully it isn't a bad one ><

B --> B-



Magearna is of course predominantly used for its specially defensive set, which serves as essentially the only pokemon that compresses the roles of checking Yveltal and Xerneas, in addition to some other common support and Calm Mind Arceus formes. It's also one of the few viable clerics in the tier, and can stop sweeps from Vivillon. However, it has some glaring issues, and recent trends in the metagame have shown it to mostly fall out of favor, with ever declining usage.

First, I should mention moveslot syndrome. Every Magearna set needs Volt Switch to not be easily removed by trappers (and maintain momentum in general, since this pokemon is usually an extreme momentum drain), and of course Heart Swap to fulfill its primary role in checking Xerneas and Calm Mind Arceus formes. Unfortunately it has three other options it really would love to have alongside these, namely Fleur Cannon (to not be completely passive), Pain Split (the only form of recovery it has, and a pretty mediocre form at that), and Heal Bell for utility. You generally have to pick two of these options and grimace at the lack of the last one - for example without Fleur Cannon, you have no real way to do damage to Yveltal and CM darkceus and need team support to fully handle them, and without Pain Split you get worn down and eventually beaten by Arceus formes that aren't immediately forced out (such as steelceus and waterceus).

Magearna is very vulnerable to Ho-Oh and especially Primal Groudon, both of which have come into more prominence recently. Primal Groudon is an especially large issue here due to it blocking Volt Switch; as it is complete fodder for Groudon and forfeits all momentum, one generally has to appropriately double switch when it comes into play, which is not at all ideal. Other prominent threats in the metagame like Ultra Necrozma and Rayquaza force it out easily (though at least they can't really set up on it like the aforementioned). It even has a mediocre matchup against Calm Mind Ultra Necrozma, as a +1 Heat Wave has a reasonable roll to plainly OHKO after SR - given that CM Necrozma finds plenty of setup opportunities by bluffing the SD set against will-o-wisp users or likewise, the possibility of having to take that hit is very real. It cannot handle offense in general, failing to do anything besides checking Xerneas.
Altogether, this makes building with Magearna much more difficult than with other Xerneas checks in this meta. It cannot fit on offense at all, and while it can be conceivably used on stall there aren't any successful stall teams I'm aware of that elect to use it, due to being outclassed and generally unable to fit (not mentioning the fact that it compounds weakness to Primal Kyogre, which is already very threatening to many stall teams). For reference, I don't think Magearna was used at all in AGPL and certainly accomplished nothing noteworthy in OMPL.

I should also note that while it walls several common support Arceus formes, it has no way to stop them from setting SR and can't do meaningful damage back to them (with the exception of support darkceus). As it lacks access to Toxic it can't even put these supportceus on a timer like most other passive checks do, which is especially mediocre in this meta where that is the norm.

We can also compare it to some of the other prominent threats in B; for example, Gothitelle has a much more dominating matchup against stall, single-handedly being able to dismantle many stall cores on its own, as well as many common balance cores. While it has an even worse matchup against offensive builds than Magearna, this isn't enough for me to contest the fact that Gothitelle is a generally superior pokemon overall. Other pokemon in B like Lugia and Chansey are more critical in their builds (defensive ones) and generally comprise the defensive backbone of a stall team.

To summarize, while Magearna still accomplishes its primary goals in teambuilding, it has become much more difficult to fit, the metagame has more or less blown past it, and it hasn't really been able to adapt in any notable manner that would merit keeping it at its current rank.
 
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pulsar512b

Banned deucer.
My (probably stupid but whatever) nomination is:


dun dun dun
Tyranitar to A-.


Tyranitar is an excellent pokemon in the current metagame as it can deal with many prominent threats. It's victims range from Rayquaza and Necrozma to giratina. It is especially good atm due to the rise of ho-oh, which if it's not running the uncommon earthquake, is walled quite well by tyranitar. Now, to compare it to the other pokemon in a-:
Darkceus is good, but it just feels not great. I don't know how to describe it except underwhelming. I've used it and while it's certainly good, it's not quite as good as tyranitar imo. It's got 2 viable sets (def and cm refresh) both of which are decent but neither outstanding. Fairies run the fuck over this man.
Poisonceus - Very one dimensional and frankly doesn't even do it's very narrow job particularly well.
Waterceus - Again one dimensional, but does it's job fairly well.
Ferrothorn - One dimensional but very useful
Kyogre-Primal - Reasonably versatile, but usually falls into either a) defensive or b) wallbreaker. I think we can compare this to darkceus. it's defensive set seems lacking, but it's wallbreaker set is actually quite solid.
Lunala - Two sets, both have tradeoffs but are quite solid.
Yveltal - Super versatile, but has issues doing what it needs to do in the fairy infested meta.

And for the b+ mons:
Arceus-Rock - Basically a worse tyranitar, although it does have will o wisp
Arceus-Steel - Hard to justify over using ndm/ultra which is almost completely better, also destroyed by f blast
Celesteela - It's got one job and I suppose it doesn't suck at it, but it's not a god either. Still gets broken by a fair number of things.
Giratina - Only fits on semi-stalls/stalls and is generally very niche.
Mewtwo - Only useful for stalltwo, if you want another set, the megas are generally better. This is pretty good however. It is somewhat matchup dependent tbf.
Sableye-Mega - See giratina
Skarmory - See giratina, but a bit less niche
Smeargle - Can do a lot of bullshit but only fits on very niche archetypes


As you can see, Tyranitar generally is better than the b+ mons and even is better than some A- mons. It's strong matchup versus M-Gengar/Gothitelle is one of it's biggest selling points, allowing bulkier teams to eliminate this huge threat.
 
I have been playing AG for around a year and I have a respectable rank (1500).

Xerneas A Rank ---> S Rank

It can OHKO Mega Ray (and a lot of other stuff) even without Geomancy, if it is able to set up Geo before or the turn where its "check" comes in, it can actually kill Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and Groudon-Primal (if it carries focus blast). It can make quick work of marshadow if it doesn't go for geo. If it setups Geomancy, almost nothing can stop it from sweeping the entire enemy team. Even further, Gengar-Mega is super dang rare (idk why)
 
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I have been playing AG for around a year and I have a respectable rank (1500).

Xerneas A Rank ---> S Rank

It can OHKO Mega Ray (and a lot of other stuff) even without Geomancy, if it is able to set up Geo before or the turn where its "check" comes in, it can actually kill Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and Groudon-Primal (if it carries focus blast). It can make quick work of marshadow if it doesn't go for geo. If it setups Geomancy, almost nothing can stop it from sweeping the entire enemy team. Even further, Gengar-Mega is super dang rare (idk why)
1500 isnt that good,but talking about xerneas she cant beat spd necrozma dm, spd roar pdon , even hooh can survive to this (or you run hp rock :/)

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 196-231 (49.2 - 58%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Groudon-Primal: 256-302 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 350-414 (84.1 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Hidden Power Rock vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 384-456 (92.3 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery (can kill but you are forced to use hp rock:/)

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 189-223 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

like xern is good but not like mray or u necro level
 
I have been playing AG for around a year and I have a respectable rank (1500).

Xerneas A Rank ---> S Rank

It can OHKO Mega Ray (and a lot of other stuff) even without Geomancy, if it is able to set up Geo before or the turn where its "check" comes in, it can actually kill Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and Groudon-Primal (if it carries focus blast). It can make quick work of marshadow if it doesn't go for geo. If it setups Geomancy, almost nothing can stop it from sweeping the entire enemy team. Even further, Gengar-Mega is super dang rare (idk why)
I disagree with this nomination. Xern, while a terrifying setup sweeper, is still exceptionally easy to check, via the simple expedient of specially defensive dusk mane. Additionally, spdef pdon, ho-oh, and poisonceus all tank whatever xern can throw at them (barring hp rock for ho-oh), then kill or phaze xern. Additionally, xern doesn’t come in on very much, just on defogs and willos, or the odd judgment from darkceus. The primary reason that mega rayquaza is in S rank is that there’s no mon that can check all of its sets except magmemite. Specially defensive dusk mane defeats every single one of xerneas’s sets with ease, rendering it an exceptionally reliable answer. Add to that the fact that offensive dusk mane can also check xern, combined with ndm’s omnipresence in ag, and you’ll find that xern is far too easy to check to be remotely deserving of S rank. Have a nice day.

Note: DSS already handled most of this, but I decided to explain in a way that was more text-block based and less unexplained calc-based, which I find makes for easier interpretation of information.

E: I in no way intend to insult DSS.
E2: grammar fix
 
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This is actually quite an interesting discussion, xerneas is a very good mon and I feel like ranking in a isn't an accurate representation of how good it is. Yes necrozma dusk mane ,arc poison, and pdon are common but they are common because otherwise geoxern would rip the teams they are on apart. Xern is easy to set up, hard to stop once it does set up, and once checks are removed xern will proceed to sweep without problem. This is why I am nomming xerneas from A -> A +
 
This is actually quite an interesting discussion, xerneas is a very good mon and I feel like ranking in a isn't an accurate representation of how good it is. Yes necrozma dusk mane ,arc poison, and pdon are common but they are common because otherwise geoxern would rip the teams they are on apart.
Poisonceus pretty much exists to beat Xern and Marsh but Necro-DM and PDon have like a billion other roles besides checking Xern. They can be setup sweepers, rocks setters, phyiscal/special walls etc. They don't exist merely to beat Xern.
Xern is easy to set up, hard to stop once it does set up, and once checks are removed xern will proceed to sweep without problem. This is why I am nomming xerneas from A -> A +
While it's true that you can set up on a defensive mon like a Supportceus, it's not really that hard to stop Xern once it sets up. If you play decently you will reserve your Xern checks for a sweep attempt. GeoXern is forced to run Geomancy/Moonblast/Focus Blast leaving you with one of several coverage options left. It simply can't run everything. Plus there are of course the mons like Necro-DM, Ho-oh, PDon, Mag etc. that can stop it after a Geomancy. Also the "it can sweep after the checks are removed" argument is worthless because every mon can sweep after the checks are removed. GeoXern is not special in this regard.

You haven't really provided us with why Xerneas is such a good mon that it should go to A+. You stated that it was a setup sweeper who had an impact on the meta and left it at that. You didn't even mention any other sets that could potentially boost rating (for example Scarf Xern), you only used GeoXern in your argument, which has already been proven to not be very difficult to stop. You didn't tell us how the meta shifted in its favor or how it found a way to get around a check or how a set increased in viability due to X's lower usage or anything. I can't support this nom because, quite simply, everything else in A+ can perform multiple roles and can arguably perform their roles better than Xern, for example due to having less checks. Xern merely exists as a setup sweeper, because no one bothers to use other sets. And again, it has a large variety of checks.

Xerneas should stay at A
 
Nominating Groudon for D rank.


Let me explain you how good is this mon in the current metagame and why it needs to be ranked. At least at D if not higher.


Groudon is eclipsed by PGroudon which has, while having a better ability far better stats.
But stop here would be a big mistake and we would forget 2 very important points :
-Groudon isn't weak to ground type
-Ground can hold an item
( and we should also mention that no one preps for Groudon)
The first point is pretty interesting, it allows Groudon to do not be scared by Zygarde, Mray EQ (except if the Mray is band Adamant, then Groudon get 2OHKO) or PGroudon itself at some point.
The second is even more interesting. Have you ever tasted a Z Precipice Blades ? Or did you Zygarde already feel the power of Z dragon Claw ?
If you don't, allow me to show you some calcs :


+2 252 Atk Groudon Tectonic Rage (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 433-511 (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ofc :
+2 252 Atk Groudon Devastating Drake (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 488-576 (116.1 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


252 Atk Groudon Devastating Drake (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 386-456 (109.9 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


252 Atk Groudon Tectonic Rage (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 420-495 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As you can see almost nothing resists to a Z pb and, even though it is more situational A dragon Claw may be pretty useful but it depends of the Terry of your team.

Here some sets of Groudon :
Groudon @ Groundium Z / Dragonium Z
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Precipice Blades
- Stone Edge
- Fire Punch / Dragon Claw

You may also try to use it as Stealth rocker with Leftovers but I definitely think it is just outclassed by PGroudon.

Nvm I tested defensive set a bit on ladder and it surprisingly worked pretty well.


Finally Groudon shall only be used in web team or with a decent user of twave because this mon really needs 3 attacks to be useful and so you can't run Rock Polish.
I'm doing a rmt with a friend about Groudon which should be ready very soon where we will provide some replays to show all the power of this mon.

Obviously this mon relies on surprise and once you revealed it it became pretty easy to deal whit if you have some decent check or just manage to nullify the Z while switching at the right moment on a fly type but it is definitely an underrated mon whit some quite cool advantages who deserves to be ranked at D rank.

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Support Groudon nomination on tweeter with the # Groudon4dRank
 
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Eh, VR is free likes ig so I'll comment on some recent noms:
Magearna b to b-
Yeah, I used this mon on some teams recently and the only real use is xern plus dark check for team compression. It's nice and all, but I'd still class it as niche but valuable, which I think fits b- much better.

Puff UR to D-
Not at all lol. The niche is "it beats msab and can yawn/endeavor stuff". However this is legit useless, everybody knows what puff does, it's very easy to counterplay around unburden. Beating msab is such a non point for webs setters, too, getting webs up vs stall is almost useless.

Aero UR to D-
Sure, why not. It's consistent enough to deserve a rank.

Staka UR to D-
lol

Ttar B+ to A-
In no way is this mon even close to A-, the two big benefits of this mon are checking mgar and mray. Notice I say check cuz it's far from countering em. Mgar usage of fblast has noticeably risen, and ttar has to win a 50/50 vs mray most of the time anyway. I think it just barely justifies a spot in B+ but I wouldn't be opposed to a drop.

Xern A to A+
No. Saying once it beats its checks it sweeps is the definition of a horrendous "argument". I could fuck everyone p with an articuno if everyone happened to sack their counters turn 5 and they're running 4 zygardes. Xern is in a fine place in A and A+ is very much overstating the value of geo.

Don UR to D
I can boogie with this. Offensive sets seem cool enough and SR lead is p good. I don't see anything wrong with ranking.

My noms:

Klefki, Alolan Muk, Scolipede, and Clefable D to UR
We definitely need to cull D rank a lot and I think these pokemon deserve to get the boot. Klef is outclassed as a screens setter and doesnt offer much value at all setting spikes, Alo Muk fits on like two teams and has zero notable performances, scoli sucks, tspikes and spikes just aint good rn, clef has a severe identity crisis and has like zero usage or results.
 
Overall, I think the VR is in pretty good shape, so these are quite minor nominations,but I may as well do some, now that the next VR is final.

:Deoxys-Speed: B- to B

Since everyone else is nominating HO leads, I figured I would as well. Deoxys-Speed, at least imo is the best HO lead right now so I think it should be ranked on par with Excadrill, which is B. Its roles include providing Screens, Stealth Rocks, Spikes, Taunt, Skill Swap (allowing a 50/50 to set up rocks vs MSab stalls), and even can do niche things like carry Psycho Boost/Counter (of which I think psycho boost is decent) to remove Marshadow/MGar or Rayquaza/PDon which are often lead vs Deoxys and are often a nuisance for HO. If anything, I feel Deoxys speed should at least be ranked Excadrill, both can generally stop hazards on their own side (Exca fails to remove hazards if there are ghosts, Deoxys stops hazards nearly always with taunt, but both lose to magic coat leads), like Exca Deoxys can set up against MSab stalls but it does need a 50/50, and unlike Excadrill, Deoxys offers Screens support and Spikes support, while Excadrill only really stays in its roll of SR/Rapid Spin.

Regarding D Rank, I feel opinion is quite a bit varying and almost everyone has a different picture of an ideal D Rank. Hazard leads seem to be another thing which are hard to agree on. These are a few mons which imo shouldn't be there and these noms I make are probably going to be unpopular and not go through but it's worth a try:

:Slowbro-Mega: D to UR
Controversial, but I don't think I've really ever seen this in use at all, and for good reason. It's main selling points are checking Ultra Necrozma, Zygarde and MRay to an extent for stall and yet it fails to do those very well, losing to X Scissor/Outrage Ultra Necrozma (this is wrong, I messed up the calcs) or just CM Ultra Necrozma, Toxic Zygarde (although other members of stall can usually deal with toxic zygarde). Additionally, it gets trapped by both MGar and Gothitelle. It can't be used outside of stall either, as balance pretty much needs it's mega slot. It does beat Mixed PDon and Ekiller very well, but generally for stalls carrying Giratina or Ho-Oh or other things, these aren't a big issue.

:Clefable: - D to UR
Great movepool and ability, awful statline. It can only really switchin and do stuff on Darkceus, Zygarde and defensive Ho-Oh. The fact that uninvested supportceus does 45% to it means it can't really switch in either. This is a minor thing, but Unaware Clefable also cannot get Soft-Boiled, 8 pp healing hurts it vs supportceus. I also think it's usually outclassed by chans/bliss/umbreon or mage.


My opinion on other people's noms:

:Groudon: - UR to D Agree
:Magearna: - B- to B Agree
:Muk-Alola: - D to UR Agree (although I'm biased)
:Tyranitar: - B+ to A Disagree. I would've agreed when TTar was still in its glory days, but FBlast Gar and people more readily earthquaking or outraging it with Rayquaza forces a lot of 50/50s making it a very shaky MRay check.
:Scolipede: - D to UR Disagree. I think this has a decent niche in being an Endeavor/Spikes/Tspikes lead with virtually infinite speed, and I really really hate to say it but it does enable BP strategy by passing Speed and Substitutes.
:Xerneas: - A to A+ Slight disagree, but I'm on the fence with this one.
:Arceus-Water: - A- to B Hard disagree.
:Aerodactyl: - UR to D Agree. Personally I'm ok with this as it brings Rock Tomb, Defog, SR and Taunt in a single set which is quite good for a hazard lead.
:Excadrill: - B to B- Disagree.
:Stakataka: - UR to D Disagree. Sadly, this doesn't get more likely the more you nominate it.
:Blaziken-Mega: - UR to D Disagree. I'd be on the fence if this didn't take the mega slot. I could see regular Blaziken making the BP rank.
 
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My opinion on a bunch of random, cherry picked noms that other people have made-

Don UR -> D
Absolutely yes. Reg don is quite difficult to play against given that its z ohkoes my waterceus, which I never manage to remember.

Mag B -> B-
Agree Mag just beats Xern and darkceus and nothing else. While it has a niche, it’s still pretty bad, and there are better xern checks, such as spdef ndm.

Keys D -> UR
Agree. I’ve never seen anyone use keys unironically in gen7, and with good reason. While prankster’s nice, klefki’s also passive af and spikes is pretty bad in a metagame dominated by mons like Ray and Ho-oh.

Blaziken UR -> D
Total disagree. Mblazi is just bad tbh. It’s easy af to force it to hjk a marsh, then kill it with priority. While speed stacking is nice, it never gets an opportunity to set up unless it’s against like darkceus.

Xern A -> A+
Xern is a good sweeper, but its checks are omnipresent, rendering it exceptionally difficult to sweep with xern against a player who has a brain and doesn’t sack their poison too early.

Ttar B+ -> A-
Disagree. Tar is an unreliable check to the mons that it is primarily used against, and is total dead weight against a lot of balances, provided the player using said balance can predict tar coming in and bop it with eq from ray. Ttar also loses to ndm, which can’t help its viability. If anything, Ttar should drop.

Megabro D -> UR
Yesteday, I would have agreed with this, but I took a megabro stall team for a spin on ladder today and it’s actually really good. It takes ~70 from +1 lo ascent, which is really good, allowing it to kill back with foul play. Additionally, it gets nice recovery and ice beam, which enables it to tackle zygarde without too much difficulty. Also, no-one runs x-scissor ultra necrozma unless they’re AGL trying to snipe someone. Megabro also soft-checks marsh, taking ~30 from non-lo spectral thief and stalling off the attacks with slack off, then taking opportunities to do a bunch with foul play. Mega slowbro also completely shuts down any sort of tr team, which brings me to my next hopefully good opinion.

Stakataka UR -> D
I’m on the fence here. Staka gets utterly shut down by mega slowbro, waterceus, zygarde complete, or basically any defensive support arc other than fairy. While stakataka is rather irritating to play against with a balance that lacks those mons, if a balance is lacking a physically defensive support arc, it’s probably not a team you should be using. Additionally, stakataka is almost completely dead weight against any sort of stall. Admittedly, staka is exceptionally effective against hyper offense, provided, of course, that it gets an opportunity to set up tr, and those opportunities are few and far between against a skilled player. If I had to decide whether staka deserves D, I’d learn very slightly towards yes, but it’s really not that great.

Deo s and exca
These both serve similar roles, so I’ll tackle them together. While it’s true that deo s is absolutely at least as good of a suicide lead as exca, I think the solution to that is not to raise deo s, but to drop exca. Suicide leads are relevant on only one playstyle: HO. As thus, I don’t see any reason for either of them to be ranked any than they are now. Imo, exca and deo-s are both fairly evenly matched as far as suicide leads go, and don’t really have any huge differences, except that deo-s can also set screens, which helps a lot, and would potentially make it better than exca, except that exca can clear rocks from its side. Wherever these two mons go, I think that they should stick in the same rank.

Scolipede D -> UR
Literally no opinion. I haven’t used this thing enough or seen it used enough for me to have an opinion on its merits as a lead outside of bp.

Alolan Muk D -> UR
Agree. Tbh this mon is just bad. While it counters mega gengar exceptionally well, that’s just about the only thing it does, and it’s an absolute nightmare to build around.

Clef D -> UR
Agree. Clef gets ohkoed by waaay too much stuff and can’t really switch into anything that isn’t darkceus. While it has a good ability, it’s got really horrendous stats that hold it back a ton.

Time for me to make a nom of some sort!
Regular blaziken -> BP
Basically just scolipede without the fire weakness. Nothing to really say here, except that blaziken is a pretty solid option on bp teams. If a super niche bp-er like scizor gets bp rank, I see absolutely 0 reason that blaziken shouldn’t be there as well.

Sorry about the lack of pictures, mobile is an absolute nightmare to work with for writing an essay this long.

Also sorry, MC, for supporting dropping A-Muk. It’s just really bad and beats like one mon and nothing else.

E: grammar fix
E2: grammar fix mk2
E3: grammar fix mk3
 
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megadumb forgot to include this in the vr update post but BaconEatinAssassin and Zenithial are now on the council! Congrats!!!

ive used pretty much every D rank mon now so i figured that ill give my thoughts on all of them. theres only a couple of mons which i think shouldnt be there anymore but ya here we go:

D Rank

Arceus-Electric
nomming this to UR. ive used this a fair bit and its max to max a one time switch into band ray or life orb ray and cant check ho-oh really well either. cm z move set is decent but i think its not good enough since youre getting walled by either don/ferro/zygarde which is really uncool. definitely never using this on a serious team.


nomming this to UR. i wanna apologize to zard/pigeons for voting yes on this when it was nominated. honestly this is such a garbage mon lol, super hard to fit on a serious team and it gets walled by pretty much everything. screens is the only decent set and id rather just use deoxys speed over this bc im also getting a fast stealth rocker for free. It only got ranked bc of how much the ladder kids hyped it up but ive seriously never seen this being useful lol.

:aerodactyl:
nomming this from UR to D. this is a pretty good SR setter. having rock tomb + taunt + fog/tailwind is its main niche which lets it beat deoxys & shuckle which are two of the most common hazard setters rn. fast taunt rocks is always very cool anyway and i think this is good enough to be ranked.

:groudon:
supporting this as well. ik i nommed it down before but its actually not bad now that ive used it. lead set is kinda passive vs balances though but i think running toxic>twave should help. sd z has never been used but sounds decent on paper.

gonna give my 10 word thoughts on other D rank mons as well


this is alright honestly, wish + heal bell + checking most cm arc AND soft checking random physical attackers is really good.


ground immunity + soft checking physical attackers + defogger is cool


one of the best defoggers in AG and is super easy to fit on teams which require solid hazard control (stall/semi stalls mainly).


probably the worst mon in D rank rn but i think what it does is super unique and can be super annoying to face sometimes.


obviously not great because dark types are super common now but prankster spikes/defog/status is still good enough to keep this ranked.


ok I actually did not use this but kyurem white is good trust me. (see calcs w/ life orb, specs and scarf. its super strong)


ive said this like 12-15 times but checking gar, yveltal, lunala, most of the supportceus and being a decent status spreader is REALLY good. ive only seen one council member use this (zenthial) and im p sure he likes it now too. couple of replays to support the nom:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-1000150902-vog8957cdaomutdqofg8vdw4v4wokqrpw (wouldve won this in the long run but i had to go. ive showcased what Muk does here pretty well I think.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-1000150562-uq3eyw86y76dwqtjee7hvm0nu59nn0opw


as much as i love this mon, its outclassed by lunala and has a garbage speed tier. but i suppose having rp + cm makes up for it. +1 z moongeist ohkos supportceus which is pretty impressive.


pretty good as well even though T spikes isnt as popular now but you can also run baton pass and stuff which makes this less useless vs sableye and all.


just read skarphs post


this is super underrated honestly, it walls/soft checks a lot of stuff which stall really appreciates. checking unecro AND dusk mane itself is really huge lol. someone said that it loses to +2 xscissor/outrage but looks like they havent done their homework. this is good please try it out.
~~+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Ultra X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO im a dummy~~
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Ultra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Neuroforce Necrozma-Ultra X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 248-292 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Ultra Light That Burns the Sky vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO


only ranked bc of psyspam imo but specs/scarf are pretty decent too i guess.


ttar is B+ rank, this is just a worse version but its a decent ddance user as well.


read zenithial's post and please use it, its good.


just got nommed and im sure no one has objections regarding this.


didnt use this one as well but its like, super strong and works wonders on webs.

hopefully the irrelevant D rank mon discussion ends with this post. I wanna see more posts on zygarde getting back to s-/marsh getting back to A (ill too make a post about this soon promise) and less of the 'slowbro should be unranked bc it is horrible, ive never used it and it doesnt have appealing high attack stats' or whatever yall are talking about rn.
 
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I'll just leave my thoughts on some of the nominations that were made here.

:magearna: Magearna B -> B-
Agree. I have literally only seen this mon once, ever, throughout my time laddering AG (granted I don't ladder too often but still). The team it was on was extremely weak to marsh (I believe it was m2/darkceus/mage/mgar/marsh/groundceus). I think as a flying resist that doesn't really want to switch into mray, and as a fairy type that can't check marsh, it kind of leaves a lot to be desired in terms of defensive utility. Plus it has bad matchups against nearly all of the mons A and higher. You could probably pair it with zyg to patch up a lot of these weaknesses but that would make it pretty tricky for you to pivot around mixed ray.

:groudon: Groudon UR -> D
Agree, more so because of the lead set with sr/twave/dtail/blades though. I faced that and it was super annoying to deal with lol. Sponges eq/surf from mray better than pdon, and pretty much nothing barring pogre can force it out turn 1 because water/grass type attacks are so uncommon.

:tyranitar: Tyranitar B+ -> A-
Disagree, it traps/checks whatever its supposed to but then is complete deadweight against everything else, especially against fatter teams. Gives ferro free turns to spike etc.

:xerneas: Xerneas A -> A+
Disagree, based off of the reasoning that all of the mons in A+ are (imo) very hard to be deadweight regardless of matchup. They're good against offense and against fat, and they all have ways of getting around or punishing their checks-- eg. mgar can get past darkceus with sub/disable/psong, pdon/hooh can annoy all of their switchins with toxic, marshadow can blow back supportceus with +1 zmove or use sub to take advantage of poisonceus, zygarde obviously gets to glare stuff. This is not the case for xern however-- if the opponent has a spdef dusk or a carefully-preserved poisonceus, then you're simply never going to get any mileage out of it until that mon is removed, because unlike the other mons xern lacks the versatility to do anything to its checks/counters.

(edit: oh and grats zen for getting on the council, missed that earlier :))
 
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nomming this to UR. i wanna apologize to zard/pigeons for voting yes on this when it was nominated. honestly this is such a garbage mon lol, super hard to fit on a serious team and it gets walled by pretty much everything. screens is the only decent set and id rather just use deoxys speed over this bc im also getting a fast stealth rocker for free. It only got ranked bc of how much the ladder kids hyped it up but ive seriously never seen this being useful lol.
NOO. Koko has an exceptionally valuable niche in ag. Not only does it completely stop smeargle strats with its access to electric terrain, taunt, and defog, but it also applies copious pressure to stall with its specs set. Koko can switch into a statused giratina fairly safely, preventing gira from resting. The opponent is forced to switch to something that can take a hit from koko, often a blissey or chansey. Koko can proceed to volt switch off of their cleric into a mon like ray or marshadow that can pressure blissey or chansey and force it back out, allowing you to bring koko in on something such as lugia or msab that doesn’t like to eat a hit from koko. Specs koko also does around 70 to arceus-ground using grass knot, reducing the reliability of groundceus as a switchin. It also hits hard against primal groudon, limiting the number of times pdon can be switched in to koko. Specs koko 2hkoes all support arcs that aren’t max spdef or grass or ground using thunderbolt, dramatically reducing the number of safe switchins to koko on most balance teams. Koko is also viable as a screensetter which can hurt smeargle. I personally haven’t used screens koko much, but I’ve seen mc56556 ’s screens koko dual xern team effectively utilize koko as a fast screensetter with pivoting, which is an exceptionally helpful niche on a lot of hyper offense teams. Additionally, defog koko is also viable, as a fast defogger that can pivot off of a lot of potential switchins with u-turn. Koko also tremendously helps the matchup vs psyspam, by providing a reliable way to remove psychic terrain, rendering the deoxyses vulnerable to priority. Koko also stops viv and those accursed assist liepard shenanigans.

Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Grass Knot
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Volt Switch


Tapu Koko @ Mental Herb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Taunt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Volt Switch

E: this set and the screens one are from robyn
Tapu Koko @ Light Clay
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- U-turn
- Taunt




In all, Koko is a moderately potent offensive threat against balance and stall, and also has a strong screens set and moderately usable defog set. It’s absolutely deserving of at least D rank. Thanks for your time.
 
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As some may have noticed, I like to lurk around Smogon sometimes to keep up with what's happening, and idk why VR is so fking interesting and entertaining to follow 3 weeks before SwSh come out. theres so much commotion over D-rank mons it's kinda laughable from the outside. But yeah here are my thoughts, even though I'm like 2 months removed from the game at this point cuz yeah

:Deoxys-Speed: B- to B yes
:Tapu Koko: D to UR yes
:Slowbro-Mega: D to UR 60-40 in favor of yes
:Clefable: - D to UR yes
:Groudon: - UR to D take it or leave it
:Magearna: - B- to B yes
:Muk-Alola: - D to UR yes
:Golduck: - UR to S+ yes
:Tyranitar: - B+ to A no
:Scolipede: - D to UR no
:Xerneas: - A to A+ no
waterceus- A- to B B+ maybe but def not B
:Aerodactyl: - UR to D YES
:Excadrill: - B to B- NO
:Stakataka: - UR to D no
:Blaziken-Mega: - UR to D no


Also for the record I'm not back, nor am I coming back for gen 8, not like anyone cared. Also it's amazing how much better your head space is when you're not playing this game.
 
Here are some of my opinions on these noms

B to B-: Hard disagree, in fact I would personally put magearna in B+ but I know that's a bit extreme. Its the only mon that reliably checks both xern and yveltal in one slot, its one of the very few viable clerics and it also does a very good job of slowing down all the relevant cm refresh arcs with heart swap (dark, fairy, flying, rock). Speaking of which, heart swap is so good, it pretty much auto-wins against bp and other forms of cheese. Mag is also a pain to deal with for stall because of its toxic immunity, pain split to keep it healthy while keeping their walls away from full and volt switch grabs you momentum to get in safely the appropriate breaker while also letting you escape from trappers. Mag was never a physical wall, if you're using this to check marsh or ray then you're doing something wrong.

B- to B: Sure, it still does what its supposed to do pretty well, I don't have much to add to what others have already said.

B+ to A-: Nah, it doesn't do that good a job of beating ray anymore, mixed ray and scarf ray are getting more popular and they can beat it with draco meteor, and vs dd ray its kind of a 50-50 wether they stay in and you should foul play or wether they switch and you should pursuit.

B to B-: No, mold breaker+rocks+spin+rock tomb+ground/steel typing is way too good of a combo for a suicide lead.

A to A+: I slightly disagree, it doesn't take much for geoxern to sweep but good players won't let their checks get weakened too easily and xern is one of those mons that people almost always prep for super heavily. Besides geo, I find the other xern sets to be a bit lackluster. Scarf xern is ok against offense, but against balance/stall you tend to just get hard walled too easily by the usual xern checks and its coverage moves are just way too weak. z-geo is just bad and way too situational. Specs is meh, again its coverage moves are just too weak and losing the speed from scarf/geo just makes you much less dangerous for offense. Defensive is just outclassed by fairyceus, aromatherapy doesn't really make up for the lack of recover.

The D and UR rank:

I don't really get the obsession with what the D rank should look like, honestly wether you're in D or UR means you're unviable, and beginners should stay away from those mons either way (and beginners should really be the main people we target with the VR; experienced players already know whats good and what isn't). Anyway, here are my thoughts on some of those noms; my main criteria for wether a mon deserves D or not is if it has a somewhat valuable niche that it accomplishes.

D to UR: Yeah, unaware is insanely good, but clefable's stats are just way too bad to make good use of it.

D to UR: As much as I hate this mon, I have to disagree with this one, it definitely has a niche albeit a very tiny one.

UR to D: I've never really tried this so I'm not really well positioned to talk, but setup sets seem like a joke, just use pdon lol. As for stealth rock sets, again I don't get why you wouldn't just use pdon besides trying to deceive your opponent at preview for whatever reason? I wouldn't make it rise but whatever.

UR to D: Why not, I still think using both rocks and defog on the same mon is a bit counterproductive but its definitely ok as a suicide lead.

UR to D: Disagree. This mon has the same problem as MMX; why would you use up your mega slot on this when you can use marshadow who has a much better stab combo and doesn't use up the mega, or just DD Mray which can actually kill stuff when boosted? I can see non-mega blaziken having some value on baton pass but I wouldn't really know.

D to UR: Don't have much experience with this guy so I don't really know, but I remember doing calcs with it and being extremely disappointed. Ultra and dusk-mane are the only two things you really wall, but that still justifies D rank imo since those two are a massive problem for stall.

UR to D: Alright don't make fun of me, but I actually agree with this one if we're going by the criteria I said above. Stak definitely has a niche; with an air balloon, it can set up trick room against ray. This can be significant against offense as they might not have the defensive resources to stop you for the duration of trick room. Against balance, its pretty bad, trick room just doesn't last long enough. There are some good arguments for the brick wall but it will never rise because pulsar has turned it into a meme :/

D to UR: I disagree, I'm not as big a fan of it as some others are but it definitely as some niche. The specs set is meh, it can be a pain for certain teams but on the whole its not that great, however dual screens is very potent. Terrain blocking sleep is pretty big, like it or not, this is the cheese tier and having ways of countering sleep spam is important.

D to UR: I disagree, I've used this a bit, and CM+2 attacks is not bad, good ol' boltbeam is still pretty decent coverage, only things that hard wall you are pdon and ferro (notice how they both wall ogre as well?). If we're dropping this, then rockceus should also drop considerably, only thing rockceus does better is resist fire, on the other hand it gets wrecked by ogre, marsh and steels, all of which electriceus handles a lot better. Having an extra flying resist vs offense is never a bad thing.
 
OK, ok, you guys don't want shitty D tier noms. However I am an intellectual and will break this by suggesting
Mega Scizor UR --> C
Fuck you, I'll nom it if I want to nom it. But tbh, this pokemon is legit amazing, has a good rank in Ubers and the only real negative it gets crossing metas is mray threatening it and competing for a mega slot. This doesn't stop it at all from being an incredibly difficult pokemon to break. Has a lot of options it can run, mandatory Bullet Punch, Curse, Roost, Toxic, Pursuit, U-Turn, SD, Baton Pass. Amazing Defensive typing and Slow Turn are just huge, it has legitimate reason to run both a phys def set or a spdef set. Resists Speed and has good priority making it an effective revenger too. I've used it in tours and on ladder and such, can attest to it being consistently good. D rank is just way too low for this mon, actually has an argument for taking up the mega slot since it accomplishes things very few pokes can. Way too versatile and way too bulky to be languishing in UR, give my mans scizor the C.

Marshadow A+ --> A: Agree
This kinda depends on what your justification for the differences of the subranks is. For me, A+ is a high metagame threat that requires little support and is easy to build with, but has some checks that stop it from being omnipresent. Marsh just doesn't quite fit this and A still seems fine for it, it just requires a bit too much support.
Zygarde A+ --> S-: Disagree
Like I said before, it has several flaws that hold it back from truly being unstoppable, I think the original drop was justified for the current meta. Definitely a fantastic mon still.
 
I disagree with this nomination. Xern, while a terrifying setup sweeper, is still exceptionally easy to check, via the simple expedient of specially defensive dusk mane. Additionally, spdef pdon, ho-oh, and poisonceus all tank whatever xern can throw at them (barring hp rock for ho-oh), then kill or phaze xern. Additionally, xern doesn’t come in on very much, just on defogs and willos, or the odd judgment from darkceus. The primary reason that mega rayquaza is in S rank is that there’s no mon that can check all of its sets except magmemite. Specially defensive dusk mane defeats every single one of xerneas’s sets with ease, rendering it an exceptionally reliable answer. Add to that the fact that offensive dusk mane can also check xern, combined with ndm’s omnipresence in ag, and you’ll find that xern is far too easy to check to be remotely deserving of S rank. Have a nice day.

Note: DSS already handled most of this, but I decided to explain in a way that was more text-block based and less unexplained calc-based, which I find makes for easier interpretation of information.

E: I in no way intend to insult DSS.
E2: grammar fix
Im afraid I have to disagree here. Poison Arceus is as rare to appear are Mega Gengar in a match (which is as likely as finding a full odds shiny) and there is no way for MRay to beat Xerneas except if MRay goes for Dragon Ascent on the turn Xern switches in and then goes for dragon ascent a second time. All that xern needs to ensure the kill is to be in there before MRay or make sure MRay is not gonna go for that move. Trust me, i have played a few hundreds of matches and i've seen this happening only 1 or 2 times.

Even if Xerneas is not good enough for S Rank, let it at least go A+.
 
Im afraid I have to disagree here. Poison Arceus is as rare to appear are Mega Gengar in a match (which is as likely as finding a full odds shiny) and there is no way for MRay to beat Xerneas except if MRay goes for Dragon Ascent on the turn Xern switches in and then goes for dragon ascent a second time. All that xern needs to ensure the kill is to be in there before MRay or make sure MRay is not gonna go for that move. Trust me, i have played a few hundreds of matches and i've seen this happening only 1 or 2 times.

Even if Xerneas is not good enough for S Rank, let it at least go A+.
Incorrect. Poisonceus appears in about 7.6% of matches above 1760. For reference, mgar appears in about 6.9%.
17 | Arceus-Poison | 7.62564% | 12120 | 1.013% | 8231 | 1.092% |
20 | Gengar-Mega | 6.85176% | 46208 | 3.862% | 30077 | 3.992% |

Also the above post assumes that poisonceus is the only viable xerneas check. This could not be further from the case. Almost all dusk mane sets can check xern to some extent, and NDM is the fourth most used mon in AG!
4 | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane | 39.13143% | 78194 | 6.536% | 52041 | 6.907% |

Xern’s checks are incredibly omnipresent, rendering it difficult for it to setup, and, once it‘s set up, to sweep. The fact thst xern is also checked by a plethora of primal groudon sets does nothing to help its viability.

Last thing: the odds of finding a shiny are about 0.00024414062%. The odds of finding a poisonceus on high ladder are about 7.62% or about 312.11520639211943 times more likely. Please do your math next time. Xern should stay in A.

e:de-fucked up my math
e2:was using outdated shiny numbers smh
 
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Im afraid I have to disagree here. Poison Arceus is as rare to appear are Mega Gengar in a match (which is as likely as finding a full odds shiny) and there is no way for MRay to beat Xerneas except if MRay goes for Dragon Ascent on the turn Xern switches in and then goes for dragon ascent a second time. All that xern needs to ensure the kill is to be in there before MRay or make sure MRay is not gonna go for that move. Trust me, i have played a few hundreds of matches and i've seen this happening only 1 or 2 times.

Even if Xerneas is not good enough for S Rank, let it at least go A+.
That point about Mega Rayquaza is wrong:
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 316-372 (80.4 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 316-372 (80.4 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 140-166 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
All it needs to do is Dragon Ascend/V-Create as Xerneas switches in and then click Extreme Speed.
Even if Xerneas is already in, it is still a mixup. If you Geomancy hoping Rayquaza switches out then you still die to Dragon Ascend->Extreme Speed. Not to mention that Mega Rayquaza is faster, so if you take some chip damage first you just die to Dragon Ascend in the 1v1.
 
That point about Mega Rayquaza is wrong:
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 316-372 (80.4 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 316-372 (80.4 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 140-166 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
All it needs to do is Dragon Ascend/V-Create as Xerneas switches in and then click Extreme Speed.
Even if Xerneas is already in, it is still a mixup. If you Geomancy hoping Rayquaza switches out then you still die to Dragon Ascend->Extreme Speed. Not to mention that Mega Rayquaza is faster, so if you take some chip damage first you just die to Dragon Ascend in the 1v1.
Xerneas can kill Mega Ray without any boost:

252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 458-540 (130.4 - 153.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Xern with right EVs and/or nature can sure OHKO MRay without geomancy. Only a super bulky MRay can survive:

252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 330-390 (79.7 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But who uses super bulky MRays anyway? And even then, MRay can only win with a switch advantage or if Xern is already heavily damaged.

Turn 1

-Rayquaza used Dragon Ascent!
0 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 226-267 (57.5 - 67.9%)

-Xerneas used Geomancy!
It became fully charged due to its Power Herb!
Sp. Attack sharply rose!
Sp. Defense sharply rose!
Speed sharply rose!

Turn 2

-Xerneas used Moonblast!
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 656-774 (158.4 - 186.9%)
Rayquaza fainted!

Feel free to correct me somewhere.
 

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