Resource USUM AG Viability Rankings

Tapu Lele D to C. Lele literally holds together psyspam, one of the most powerful playstyles, due to it's ability. It's worth noting that this is the usage statistics: 29 | Tapu Lele | 4.39984% | 12764 | 1.345% | 8590 | 1.437% |
This puts it above such good pokemon as mewtwo (mega or not), excadrill, sableye, and the always memed klefki.
It's base stats are not particularly good, but its ability just is perfect. With supporting psychic terrain, many psychic pokemon such as necrozma-ultra and the mewtwos can singlehandedly sweep teams. There is no reason for this excellent support pokemon to languish in D tier, with the likes of clefable and solrock. I'll edit this post with replays when I get a chance.
No, just no.

Psyspam is definitely not one of the most powerful playstyles, as it is extremely niche, very gimmicky, and gets rekt by scarf MRay 90% of the time. It's also worth noting that usage and viability are two different things and that just because a pokemon is used often doesn't mean it's good. Most of the pokemon in C tier have a much better niche in the meta (Zekrom can check Ho-Oh, POgre, and Toxapex, Ditto can destroy most setup sweepers which puts lots of pressure on the opposing team, Toxapex is pretty bulky and can set up TSpikes pretty well) and are simply better in general.

Tapu Lele is also not very versatile, as it can really only be used on Psyspam.
 
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No, just no.

Psyspam is definitely not one of the most powerful playstyles, as it is extremely niche, very gimmicky, and gets rekt by scarf MRay 90% of the time. It's also worth noting that usage and viability are two different things and that just because a pokemon is used often doesn't mean it's good. Most of the pokemon in C tier have a much better niche in the meta (Zekrom can check Ho-Oh, POgre, and Toxapex, Ditto can destroy most setup sweepers which puts lots of pressure on the opposing team, Toxapex is pretty bulky and can set up TSpikes pretty well) and are simply better in general.

Tapu Lele is also not very versatile, as it can really only be used on Psyspam.
Now this I actually disagree with, lele is pretty underrated outside of psyspam, scarf lele can is a decent revenge killer that can come in on pokemon like marshadow and yveltal, it can also 2hko special defensive pdon, support arcs and plenty of other things

That being said it still deserves to be D rank
 

Kate

Metamodernity
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past SCL Champion
RBTT Champion
161491

Nihilego UR --> D
He's back at it again with the noms!
neomon made a nom of this last vr update, but I think Nihi's niche comes far more in being a suicide lead than a specially defensive wall.

You guys may know how ridiculously broken Tspikes can be on Hyper Offense, however, it is rarely exploited due to there being only two Tspike setters in vr, and pex on HO, lmao. Nihi is a much more reliable hazard setter than scoli mainly due to the fact that it can actually stop set-up sweepers and some opposing leads. For reference, Nihilego gets one of the most valuable moves for leads, Magic Coat. Since this pokemon is never used, almost no one actually knows that it gets this move, and they just let their Deo-s get taunted, which allows for Nihi to get at least two hazards up. The dual combo of SR and Tspikes lets this be an absolutely potent pokemon if you cannot outspeed and 2HKO it. Nihi also gets Clear Smog (Bazooka Bob vibes, anyone?), which allows it to beat BP and stop Set up sweepers barring steels. Honestly, the way steels counter it is its biggest boon, but it has a lot more positives imo, and can often surprise the opponent due to a lack of knowledge of what this pokemon can do. N.N
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
View attachment 161491
Nihilego UR --> D
He's back at it again with the noms!
neomon made a nom of this last vr update, but I think Nihi's niche comes far more in being a suicide lead than a specially defensive wall.

You guys may know how ridiculously broken Tspikes can be on Hyper Offense, however, it is rarely exploited due to there being only two Tspike setters in vr, and pex on HO, lmao. Nihi is a much more reliable hazard setter than scoli mainly due to the fact that it can actually stop set-up sweepers and some opposing leads. For reference, Nihilego gets one of the most valuable moves for leads, Magic Coat. Since this pokemon is never used, almost no one actually knows that it gets this move, and they just let their Deo-s get taunted, which allows for Nihi to get at least two hazards up. The dual combo of SR and Tspikes lets this be an absolutely potent pokemon if you cannot outspeed and 2HKO it. Nihi also gets Clear Smog (Bazooka Bob vibes, anyone?), which allows it to beat BP and stop Set up sweepers barring steels. Honestly, the way steels counter it is its biggest boon, but it has a lot more positives imo, and can often surprise the opponent due to a lack of knowledge of what this pokemon can do. N.N
While I'm not necessarily saying I'm against this mon getting D rank, the argument "it's good because people don't know how to beat it" is not a good argument. Viability rankings refer to how good a pokemon can be if both players know what they're doing; if the only thing going for a pokemon is that nobody knows what it does then that's not a viable mon.
 

pichus

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
OMPL Champion

Arceus-Steel : A- to A
Third times a charm.

In this post ill talk about its three main sets in detail and ill try to explain why its better/as good as other arceus formes in AG.

1) Calm Mind
Arceus-Steel @ Iron Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe or EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Judgment
- Iron Defense / Earth Power

This is the most common set which Steelceus runs.
Theres a few more arceus forms that can viably run CM sets (darkceus, groundceus, rockceus and w/e other mons run it now), ill discuss why CM steelceus is a better option than most of the arceus formes.

- It has Toxic immunity so it cant be worn down by common toxic users like Waterceus, Fairyceus, Dusk Mane and whatever relies on status to check CM Arceus formes.

-Also, steel Judgment hits everything for atleast resisted damage which means you can run a coverage move without worrying about losing to toxic, unlike darkceus and rockceus which run Refresh and miss out on running a coverage move. (messed up this sentence pretty badly but i hope you guys understand what im trying to say).

The primary reason why its not as popular as it was before is due to the fact that marsh, scarf ray and ho-oh are getting way more common now.
now ill discuss how it can beat the given 3 mons and its other checks and prove why its pretty much broken.

- It can run iron defense (also, pls note that other arc forms cannot run ID unless they wanna drop a coverage move or Refresh), so we can set up vs ekiller, ghostceus and surprisingly also vs defensive pdon and life orb ho-oh, AND not auto lose to Marshadow and Scarf ray!
Incase you guys thought that I mistyped, it DOES set up on Life Orb Ho-Oh (208+ attack) and defensive Pdon. ID also prevents Marsh from clicking close combat and Scarf Ray from clicking Vcreate for free. [We only need 1 iron defense boost and then Marsh and Ray wouldn't want to click cc and vcreate unless they wanna die to judgment]
( Steelceus beats Ho-Oh 1v1 ) ( beats pdon 1v1 and gets solid chip on marsh )
calcs
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Steel: 213-252 (47.9 - 56.7%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Iron Plate Arceus-Steel Judgment vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 247-292 (76.9 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
forces marsh to spectral instead of cc

252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Steel: 214-254 (48.1 - 57.2%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Iron Plate Arceus-Steel Judgment vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 226-267 (64.3 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
scarf ray doesnt rlly check bcz we also outspeed after they use vcreate once. also instead of judging we can iron defense again.
also, id want to clarify that iron defense is a perfectly viable 4th move and not just to cteam marsh and ray. you can definitely use this over earth power since earth power only helps vs Pdon while iron defense helps vs pretty much all its offensive checks.

sooo basically what im trying to say is that even those mons which check steelceus (ho-oh, pdon, marsh and ray) cant check it if we have Iron defense. (unless they crit ofcourse, marsh, ray and ho-oh have 8 tries each (sacred fire, cc, vc have 8 pp) to crit once so ig we should manage not getting critted)
The best way to use this set is to not Calm Mind if the marsh and ray are still alive. instead, boost your defenses so you can get some chip on these 2 mons and then switch back your steelceus later in the game to sweep.

ofcourse we cant really beat chansey and blissey with this set (thats an issue with every CM arc so we have an excuse), but we can definitely beat them with some other set. now ill talk about the very underappreciated set it can run.

2) Swords Dance
Arceus-Steel @ Steelium Z
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Substitute
- Earthquake / Stone Edge
- Iron Head

I think this set is extremely underused for how good it is right now. The main reason why this set is so good is because of unpredictability.
Most people would send in their Ferrothorn, Celesteela, Chansey, Blissey, Ho-Oh, Poisonceus or Waterceus when they see a steelceus, and then you reveal swords dance + Sub and the opponent realizes that they are doomed.
Sub blocks status moves from physical walls like Wisp Supportceus, Celesteela, Defensive DM and Ferro.
Having stone Edge makes it the ultimate ho-oh lure however Earthquake can also work if u wanna beat pdon. However, you'd prefer running Stone Edge since you can actually beat pdon after some chip (without earthquake), but its kinda hard to chip ho-oh bc of regenerator.
This works just like other sd sub arceus but the reason why youd probably use it over standard ekiller and groundceus is bc most people dont expect this set and you can lure in a few mons.

you can also Z move or stone edge without boosting if youre 100% sure that theyd directly switch to blissey or ho-oh. however, if you mess this up, the whole surprise element of the set is gone and it makes it easier for your opponent to check it.
and ofcourse dont use this if a marsh is alive, this set gets shut down by marsh but ig u could get some chip from unboosted iron head if youre behind the sub

calcs
+2 252 Atk Arceus-Steel Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ground: 420-495 (94.5 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Arceus-Steel Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ground: 211-249 (47.5 - 56%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Arceus-Steel Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 310-366 (73.8 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (cant take iron head + z iron head at +2)
+2 252 Atk Arceus-Steel Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 247-292 (70.3 - 83.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Arceus-Steel Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 336-396 (80.7 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (need iron head chip)
+2 252 Atk Arceus-Steel Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Dark: 315-372 (70.9 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Arceus-Steel Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Dark: 159-187 (35.8 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

3) Support
Arceus-Steel @ Iron Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic / Iron Defense / Calm Mind / Perish Song
- Recover
- Judgment
- Stealth Rock / Toxic / Wisp

"alright Arushi, you can run some fancy offensive sets on this, but is it a good support mon like Arceus-fairy and ground? "
yeah. This is another very underused set and the only time i ever see it is on a few stall teams. The main reason why it could be used as supportceus is because:
- steel is a gorgeous typing, other than immunity to toxic this type offers resistance to fairy, flying, rock and poison (and 5 more types but ig those arent very relevant). This means that we have a solid switch in with reliable recovery for fairy moves like judgment from fairyceus, moonblast from xern, ascent from band or scarf ray, rock judgment and poison jab from arceus and this also checks most mega gengar sets as its resists sludge wave and hex doesnt do much.
- having toxic or cm means that we can pressure opposing defogger to switch out which ultimately gets our rocks up sooner or later. on the other hand, defoggers like poisonceus, fairyceus, darkceus and giratina cannot pressure it much since steely is immune to toxic

(jbtw im not trying to imply that steelceus' support set is better than other supportceus, im just listing the advantages of using this over other arcs and why its not a bad idea to use this over your standard rocker/supportceus)

replays of steely in action;
(i had more but i lost the pastebin where i stored the replays, ill collect more and post some more)

okay i do realise this post kinda long for a single nomination, so i figured ill do a tldr version:
- having a good offensive and defensive typing along with immunity to toxic is one of the main reason why steelceus such a good arceus forme in ag.
- cm iron defense set, if used correctly, is pretty much broken bc its common checks cannot beat it.
- sd + sub is a very underappreciated set and can lure in common defensive walls. this can straight up tear apart balance teams since common defensive walls rely on status moves to stop sd arcs.
- support is a very underused set but it can be placed on a balanced or stall team bc it is able to check choiced ray sets, fairy types, rock types, gengar and is a good rock setter bc of immunity to toxic.

i hope this kinda convinces people that steelceus is more than just a good CM user, it is actually a very versatile arceus forme with rather unpredictable sets and definitely deserves more attention in the meta.

oh btw, im nominating steelceus to A, just incase u guys forgot xd
 
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hi so I guess i'm chloe now

this is going to be a really long post and I doubt anyone's actually going to bother reading all of it, but over the last couple of months I have been messing around a bit and trying some new stuff. I do have some noms to put out there, but I also wanted to talk about a couple of other things as well.

Nominations:

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Arceus: A to A-

I've had an interesting relationship with this mon. When Marsh dropped, I hated this mon and I think a lot of people had it written off. Then came along thimo and hunter who definitely brought it back to life, and I started genuinely enjoyed using it. But now that they are gone, so is innovation and now all of ekiller's sets are pretty well known. Sure, there are so many different sets but honestly, basic cores can stop this mon with ease. The problem is that these cores can do so much more than cover ekiller. I don't think ekiller needs specific checks, it just comes naturally with teambuilding; and it doesn't help how many Pokemon stop ekiller straight out. And even if ekiller can break a certain Pokemon through surprise, more often than not the team will have another answer to that particular set. The problem is that ekiller only has 4 moveslots; which means it will only ever be able to do so much team breaking wise. Sure, you have that really nice z giga impact set, or that really nice chople facade set, but these mean you will lose to the likes of steelceus or ttar. Sure, you have that nice eq beam lo set, but this means you can't break the likes of skarm, marsh or wisp users. I just think on too many occasions ekiller has not done enough for me and it's not as good at sweeping as people make it out to be. Ekiller is a staple on hyper offense; but is hyper offense really the go to playstyle in ag? I personally don't think so, open finals clearly showed that balance and stall was the way to go, with hyper offense losing in both sets against silent mobius (with the exception of one game against highlighter, where the t wave miss arguably lost sm the game). A- is still a good rank, I'm not trying to say it's the worst mon ever it deserves to be unranked, but I personally just don't think it's quite on the same level as the other Pokemon in A rank.

I hate to do this I really do, but this replay does showcase my point perfectly:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-868730542
This replay just goes to show how weak ekiller is. Support arcs are a common thing in the ag meta, and doing 39 at +2 against a support arc just shows how much it struggles to break walls. it can easily be revenged as well by ghost types such as Marshadow and Mega Gengar just when it looks like Ekiller might be able to break through.

Some slightly more lowkey noms:

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Magearna: B to B-

So this Pokemon did have some importance a while back when cm refresh arc dark was actually relevant, but now that everyone has counters to that it honestly makes mag almost useless. It's niche is a yveltal/xern check in one, but why would you choose this over something like poisonceus? Mega Gengar, sure, but that's why this mon is B- instead of UR. Even Mega Gengar can easily be played around with earth power poisonceus or a pursuit user. Mag also requires huge amounts of team support. It's slow, and it's steel, which means a hella lot of offensive Pokemon are going to threaten this Pokemon severely. The list is almost endless: Mega Rayquaza, Dusk Mane, Ultra Necro, Primal Groudon, Kyogre, Arceus-Ground, Ho-Oh, Zygarde and there's probably more these are just the ones that first come to mind. It's just set up bait for so many mons and is threatened immediately by the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier for honestly very little reward, which for me means it needs to drop to B- or even C.

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Arceus-Flying: B- to C

I'm just going to go ahead and say it, birdceus is a meme. A good meme, but a meme. I would classify VR into three sections: D rank being meme, C rank being good meme, and B- and above being perfectly usable Pokemon in a competitive setting. I have never seen birdceus used in a competitive match ever, its only relevance is in monotype ag when you just want to use mono flying and sd birdceus seems cool. This may seem like a personal attack on Pigeons (and it is) but seriously this mon is just awful. Firstly, it has one set, cm refresh. Support t wave defog Lavaclaw birdceus sets do not count. cm refresh is capable of random sweeps, but the consistency of cm refresh is non-existent and something like Dusk Mane or Roar ttar stops this mon in its tracks. It has absolutely no defensive utility, so birdceus will find it extremely difficult to get in and do something which means its likelyhood of sweeping is very low. Finally, Stealth Rock doing 25 just kills this mon for me, it simply should not be alongside Pokemon that are actually decent and perfectly usable.

The Mewtwo dilemma

I don't think anyone really knows where all the mewtwo's should be on the vr in correspondence with each other. I have my own opinion, but I'm not sure if it is the right one as ranking these mons are extremely difficult; for me the hardest out of all the pokemon in ag. I think what is clear however is that I don't think anyone is happy with where the mewtwo's sit right now. I am repeating a little on what others have already said, but Mega Mewtwo X at B, with Mewtwo at B-, is a disgrace in my eyes. MMX has to be the most overrated Pokemon of all time, I think the only argument I've heard for it is 'it can surprise arceus-dark with low kick'. This doesn't work in reality. If someone is bringing in a mewtwo on a darkceus, no one is staying in. It is clearly going to be a MMX, so all you have to do it go to your Arceus-Fairy which honestly cockblocks MMX for the most part. Toxic/Taunt/Recover sets help work around Fairyceus, but mono low kick can be very mediocre and means Mega Rayquaza and Mega Gengar come in easily, and Mega Rayquaza always claims a kill while Mega Gengar traps with no psychic STAB. Mewtwo, on the other hand, has some amazing diversity and can play multiple roles. Support Pokemon? Check. Sweeper? Check. Taunt webs support? Check. Screens support? Check. Smeargle spam??? Check. Mewtwo has more roles than MMX and MMY combined, making it arguably the most dangerous of the three. If it were up to me, MMX would be B- or even C, with Mewtwo and MMY at B, but these decisions are not up to me. I simply beg the council to reconsider the position of where these Pokemon are as I know I'm not the only one who is angry with this. This needs to be a priority.

My thoughts on other nominations

There have been quite a few noms since the last update so I'm just going to talk about the most relevant ones, in particular, arushi's steelceus.

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Heatran to D: No. I don't think any explanation is required here.

163856
Koko to D: Surprising, I agree. Specs isn't as bad as I thought it would be all things considered and it has a niche in screens taunt and stopping smeargle, so I think D is warranted.

163857
Pogre to A: I love this mon, but no. Pdon and Mega Rayquaza are simply too prominent and dangerous for Pogre to be a higher rank. Offensive Pogre sets just get nuked by Mega Rayquaza, and Mega Ray has no switch ins so you lose a mon every time it comes in. Defensive Pogre is very nice, my favourite set by far, but I think sometimes it's simply too passive, and while rest works it is not ideal in certain situations. In addition it does still get nuked by Mega Rayquaza, it only takes a little chip to get dropped and even if it survives and takes out Mega Ray it effectively becomes useless as it is very slow and it is unlikely for it to be able to recover.

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Arceus-Water to A: This is borderline, but I'm going to have to say no. 4 moveslots is downright annoying for waterceus, when it wants to be able to run toxic/wisp/ice beam/recover/defog/judgment. Waterceus is just too passive for my taste even for a support arc, which is why I'm not willing to put it alongside absolutely fantastic arceus formes like groundceus and fairyceus.

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Arceus-Ghost to B+: Another borderline nom, but I'm willing to give it a pass into B+. I think this mon is honestly underprepared for, and its Z move is immensely strong. Ghost typing also makes it a decent pick for webs still, so it's not completely irrelevant. Stone edge allows it to break Yveltal, Sub lets it get past Wisp and Brick Break 2hkos Darkceus, which shows it does have weapons to get past its checks. Overall still a solid threat in the meta.

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Yveltal to A-: Unsurprisingly, I disagree with this. The utility and finesse of this Pokemon allow it to stay near the top. Defensive Yveltal for me is still the most consistent Dusk Mane, Ekiller and Ultra check in the game. Life Orb is generally good but an absolute powerhouse on webs, I personally think every webs team should feature Yveltal as it is that incredible. I have a soft spot for the mon but it has a plethora of moves that allow it to dominate in some games.

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Lugia to B-: Definitely no. Lugia is easily the most consistent Mega Rayquaza check in the game, and is honestly a monster for ho to deal with. Whirlwind and Toxic can just annoy the hell out of ho, sometimes there is absolutely nothing you can do. Dusk Mane has hampered the effectiveness of this Pokemon quite a bit for sure, but not to the point where it should drop it down with the likes of birdceus and deo a. Multiscale is an absolute beast, as long as you have good defog support with this Pokemon you should be fine.

Steelceus - Good, but not that good

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Judging by the title, you can probably tell I disagree with Arushi's nom to A. Arushi has nommed this Pokemon twice for some reason? so for that reason alone, I feel I need to produce a direct rebuttal.

Let's be real here. Steelceus only has one good set, cm. Support I would say can be okay, but SD is pretty garbage and sounds like something a 1600 player would use. Support Steelceus being only applicable to stall for me hampers its effectiveness, a good Pokemon should be available on as many playstyles as possible. And this is not without evidence, stall-based Pokemon such as Lugia, Mega Sabe and Giratina are all B+ and below. So, as we have established Steelceus only has one really good set, that should already be ringing alarm bells. I've already slammed Birdceus for being a one dimensional one moveset Pokemon and so now I'm going to do that for Arceus-Steel. When you see a Steelceus, you know exactly what it's going to do; this makes it so much easier to play against. Calm Mind Steelceus is annoying, but it lacks too much consistency to be an A rank Pokemon. Steelceus can dominate against some teams but struggle to do anything against others because Steelceus does have its fair share of checks: Ho-Oh, Marshadow, Zygarde, Pdon, Pogre, Celesteela. Its offensive utility is really all its got going for it as its typing is too poor to be a good support Pokemon outside of stall, so with this in mind I think it sits perfectly in A-.

Conclusion

I am reasonably happy with vr, a lot of the noms are hard to decide which definitely shows most Pokemon are in the right place. I think for the most part the toxicity of the playerbase has reduced, with certain exceptions, although I must say some of the things said on ag forums is downright childish and unnecessary, but I'll take that any day over more lance shenanigans. I also have to stress that attacking staff is just pretty ridiculous, without them I can assure you ag would be a lot worse, and from knowing them all personally I can tell you every single one of them are chill even Megazard, but that one might take some more convincing. Anyway, with Skarph having quit I'm going to go back and dip for the most part for a few more months, pce out and love you all o/
 
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Dugtrio Unranked --> D

Fact:
Arena Trap is broken
Duggy Xern is one of the most underrated cores in the meta
Duggy is an amazing suicide lead that also traps
Memento also gives u set up options vs mons u normally wouldnt be able too *cough XernDuggy cough*
Arena Trap is broken (did i mention this yet?!)

Struggles:
Possible set up bait and very weak damage output vs a lot of the meta
Can be useless in certain matchups

Now 5:2 is a very reasonable good to bad ratio and it might as well be 10 since Arena Trap is broken. The best duggy set imo is groundium to bait in pdons and dusk manes and poisonceus and take them out for xern. The lead set is also great too with rocks toxic eq and rock tomb.

Overall this mon has great niches that can play an important role in the meta, including the amazing core of XernDuggy which i think is very underrated and of course Arena Trap is broken (did i say this yet?!)
 

pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
Dugtrio Unranked --> D

Fact:
Arena Trap is broken
Duggy Xern is one of the most underrated cores in the meta
Duggy is an amazing suicide lead that also traps
Memento also gives u set up options vs mons u normally wouldnt be able too *cough XernDuggy cough*
Arena Trap is broken (did i mention this yet?!)

Struggles:
Possible set up bait and very weak damage output vs a lot of the meta
Can be useless in certain matchups

Now 5:2 is a very reasonable good to bad ratio and it might as well be 10 since Arena Trap is broken. The best duggy set imo is groundium to bait in pdons and dusk manes and poisonceus and take them out for xern. The lead set is also great too with rocks toxic eq and rock tomb.

Overall this mon has great niches that can play an important role in the meta, including the amazing core of XernDuggy which i think is very underrated and of course Arena Trap is broken (did i say this yet?!)
Can you explain what dugtrio does exactly, for the people that aren't familiar? Explain the XernDuggy core as well please.
 
dugtrio beats most of xern's checks (NDM, PDon, Poisonceus) with groundium z allowing xern to set up and click moonblast. xern's checks cant switch out b/c of arena trap

outside of that, dugtrio can also run rocks + memento allowing for ez setup
 
I am going to nom mega gyarados from ur->D

164396


Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Taunt
- Waterfall
- Crunch


Pros of using mega gyarados:
-Mega gyarados is an excellent stall breaker
-Has good matchups against many pokemon
ranked a- and above such as unecro, necrozma dm
(better against offensive variants before mega
evolution), gengar, lunala, ferrothorn, pdon (before
mega evolution), and arceus ground
-beats baton pass with mold breaker taunt

Cons of using cons mega gyarados:
Uses a mega slot that can go to mray
Generally outclassed as a ddance sweeper by mray

Conclusion:
Mega gyarados is a pokemon to consider using if you want to beat stall easy and you don't mind the loss In power over mray
 
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MZ

And now for something completely different
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Hi, professional curmudgeon Megazard here. Half this update is us doing a good job at removing bad D rank things that have no purpose being on the VR and half the update is us mucking around and making the same exact errors. If you want explanations on any of the changes that went through, I'm not your guy lol. For the stuff that didn't, we mostly felt people were just overrating mons like Steelceus, Ekiller, Lele, Tentacruel, etc. and they aren't as good as the posts made them out to be, if you want more detail feel free to ask me or another council member but a lot of the reasoning is just very straightforward "nah this is fine where it's at". If you'd like to see how people voted, here's the sheet.

Rises
Mewtwo B- to B
Mega Gyarados Unranked to D
Heatran Unranked to D
Tapu Koko Unranked to D

Drops
Mega-Mewtwo-X B- to C
Mega Slowbro C to D
Pyukumuku D to Unranked
Quagsire D to Unranked
Serperior D to Unranked
Gliscor D to Unranked (this is getting put in BP rank though)
Solrock D to Unranked
 
An exhaustive analysis of Heatran
166072


Heatran: D to UR

Introduction

So, it finally happened, Heatran was ranked to D. Due to this and the fact that mdb claims that I am a misinformed bias auth scumbag, I feel I need to make this post. This post is going to be completely factual and realistic, I think I have covered the main weaknesses of heatran in this post but I probably did miss out a couple more. And before you ask, I have used Heatran! With that being said, let's get into it.

Teambuilding

Heatran is an extremely difficult Pokemon to build around due to its typing, in particular in regards to needing to still check Xerneas and Pogre. I'm just going to list some Pokemon combinations that would be necessary to go with Heatran, and you'll see the issue. Heatran/Ferrothron/Dusk Mane: 3 Steel types! Heatran/Pdon/Arceus-Poison: Serious ground weakness! Heatran/Ferrothorn/Arceus-Poison: Not necessarily a bad pick, however, the issue here is that roles overlap. I'm going with the assumption that Heatran wants to run Stealth Rock, but Poisonceus/Ferrothorn cores want to run Stealth Rock Poisonceus and Spikes Ferrothorn which is perfect, making Heatran irrelevant. Again, Heatran/Primal Groudon/Ferrothorn has the same issue where Pdon wants to run rocks and Ferro spikes, making Heatran left out again. These cores can be relatively weak to ground as well if Ferrothorn gets weakened or if it is an SD variant. So the point I'm trying to demonstrate is that it's hard to make Heatran partner well with other Pokemon in the metagame, making it much less applicable to any team. Arceus-Steel in a way does suffer to this as well, but it's a much much more offensive Pokemon so I think you can get away with it. I hope this point makes sense, it's slightly more complicated than the other points I'm going to make so if you do have any questions come and ask.

Recovery

Or in this case, the lack thereof. Heatran is a purely defensive Pokemon, but has no recovery! This makes me much less inclined to bring it on anything because it's so easy for this Pokemon to get chipped. Heatran doesn't run protect either, so there's no easy way to farm leftovers recovery which means you have to be very, very careful when using this Pokemon. This is also to me why air balloon tran is kind of a nonset, leftovers is the only recovery it has and it needs that desperately.

Magma Storm

Magma Storm is a good move, but there are definitely some serious issues with it. First and foremost, it's 75% accurate. That is absolutely terrible, I personally would not use a move below 80% accuracy in a competitive setting. So good luck hitting this move when it matters! There's also the fact that magma storm only has 8PP. This makes Heatran's long term trapping abilities non-existent and means you have to be very, very careful when predicting when to use this move as you do not want to drain this PP too quickly against bulkier teams where Heatran could actually put in some work. Magma storm also isn't this perfect trapping machine that people make it out to be; it is very easy for the opponent to switch to a pokemon that will not be trapped and easily recover off the damage or set up on Heatran. In this, it is far, far less effective than the likes of Goth and Mega Gengar which have immediate trapping capabilities. Finally, magma storm is generally Heatran's only attacking move. A mono fire attack with only 8 PP makes it reasonably passive, meaning plenty of Pokemon can come in relatively comfortably on this Pokemon and claim a kill.

MDB's list

I wanted to briefly analyse the list that mdb made for us in his quality post on Heatran. If you can't be bothered to find it, it is as follows (added Zygarde for good measure for bad mu, not sure why it wasn't there to start):


  • Mega Gengar
  • Fairceus
  • Waterceus
  • Ho-Oh
  • Scarf Xern
  • Darkceus
  • Poisonceus
  • Ferrothorn
  • Celesteela
  • Skarmory
  • Rockceus
  • Tyranitar
  • Gothitelle
  • Lugia
  • Magearna
  • Mega Mewtwo Y
  • Grassceus
  • Flyceus
  • ONLY VIABLE OPTION THAT COUNTERS NAGANADEL


  • Ultra Necrozma
  • Zygarde
  • Mega Rayquaza
  • Primal Groudon
  • Offensive Dusk Mane
  • Groundceus
  • Normalceus
  • Marshadow
  • Offensive Steelceus
  • Lunala
  • Primal Kyogre
  • Ghostceus
  • Mega Mewtwo X
  • Kyogre


As you can see by these two lists, the bad matchup bullet points consist of THE most dangerous threats in the meta and that make up almost all of S, S-, A+, A and A-. On the other hand, the good matchup bullet points are all very passive Pokemon that are much further down the VR. Sure, this Pokemon isn't perfect and we are only talking about D rank, but a Pokemon that invites so many dangerous threats in the meta and allows them to set up makes you wish you were never using heatran at all.

megazard edit: there was a whole MDB callout section that adds nothing to the post but I nuked it. pls dont do that :pirate:

Concluding thoughts

Overall, heatran isn't a bad Pokemon per se, I just don't think it plays a big enough role in ag with a big enough niche to be warranted a rank in ag. It's utility is simply too specific and narrow even to be D rank. Another quick thing to note is that if the likes of Hunter and thimo have used heatran in a competitive setting (something mdb has not done afaik) and not even nommed it, to me this rings some alarm bells that maybe this Pokemon isn't as good as everyone is making it out to be. So this was a really long post just about one Pokemon so I do apologise for that, my noms never work out but you never know if serp can get unranked so quickly I do not see why it cannot be the same for heatran. But what do I know, I am after all just an auth scumbag.
 
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Kate

Metamodernity
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past SCL Champion
RBTT Champion
Well I think you know I'm going to respond to this lol. I'm not going to say anything about you, it isn't the place for it, I just never called you a scumbag. But onto refuting points:
Team building: one point I agree with on a lot. Yes, heatran is hard to fit on a team since it often overlaps weaknesses, however heatran/pdon/waterceus is imo one of the best cores to run for this Pokemon and doesn't have as many of the same problems as the two cores you mentioned before. Pair it with a dark type and it's a difficult core to break, and that's not me talking out of my ass:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-873659583 heatran does exactly what it should, weakens the team to allow me to pull out the victory.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-873649857 heatran eliminates both fairceus, limits the switching, and pulls out the victory
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-873684444 heatran does it again, eliminates by far the biggest threat to my team.
These are just three, and all of them are high quality imo.
But I'd like to say this point is the reason why it was nommed only to D.
Recovery: yes, it gets no recovery. So what? It doesn't need recovery to function, it still does its job perfectly fine, the only thing is that you have to be more careful while using it, which if you know what you're doing, shouldn't be an issue.
Magma Storm: yes, only 8pp. Once again, conservation should not be an issue for a player with skill. He biggest issue I have with a lot of this post is you basically saying so much switches into heatran, when it's actually incredibly hard to get in heatran checks. You can look at the bad matchups list, and see that almost everything is chipped by >30 or just toxiced. This is part of the reason why heatran can be so effective. A player knowing that heatran traps is forced to switch out, and heatran either gets free rocks or chips/cripples something. It's especially hard late game to keep your heatran checks healthy enough to reliably switch in, and Tran can continuously pressure the team.
My List: once again, a non issue since, like I said, nothing besides maybe rest primals and zygarde like switching into it, and even those still don't like being forced to rest. Not only that, but as the list shows, heatran checks a fuck ton of common defensive Pokemon, which is very important in today's meta.
Concluding thoughts: idk what thimo and Hunter have to do with this, sure, they're better players than me, but you're basically saying that if they used it and didn't nom it, then heatran isn't good? Doesn't make much sense to me, but let's move on. A lot of the times you referenced heatran being overrated and stuff, which is just simply false. It took 9, yes 9 months to get this on vr, and I had to fight tooth and nail to get it even somewhat recognized. Even then, it barely got on vr. This Mon isn't being overrated at all imo. I'm just going to close with the fact that a lot of the points you made are simply things I've acknowledged before and what keeps it back from being a truly great Pokemon. However, I fail to see what enlightening new info you brought up that warrants it being removed from vr. This was obviously you calling me out, don't have a problem with that, just PM me next time lol. That's it for me, I got some noms in the works tho, dw.
 
Well I think you know I'm going to respond to this lol. I'm not going to say anything about you, it isn't the place for it, I just never called you a scumbag. But onto refuting points:
Team building: one point I agree with on a lot. Yes, heatran is hard to fit on a team since it often overlaps weaknesses, however heatran/pdon/waterceus is imo one of the best cores to run for this Pokemon and doesn't have as many of the same problems as the two cores you mentioned before. Pair it with a dark type and it's a difficult core to break, and that's not me talking out of my ass:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-873659583 heatran does exactly what it should, weakens the team to allow me to pull out the victory.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-873649857 heatran eliminates both fairceus, limits the switching, and pulls out the victory
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-873684444 heatran does it again, eliminates by far the biggest threat to my team.
These are just three, and all of them are high quality imo.
But I'd like to say this point is the reason why it was nommed only to D.
Recovery: yes, it gets no recovery. So what? It doesn't need recovery to function, it still does its job perfectly fine, the only thing is that you have to be more careful while using it, which if you know what you're doing, shouldn't be an issue.
Magma Storm: yes, only 8pp. Once again, conservation should not be an issue for a player with skill. He biggest issue I have with a lot of this post is you basically saying so much switches into heatran, when it's actually incredibly hard to get in heatran checks. You can look at the bad matchups list, and see that almost everything is chipped by >30 or just toxiced. This is part of the reason why heatran can be so effective. A player knowing that heatran traps is forced to switch out, and heatran either gets free rocks or chips/cripples something. It's especially hard late game to keep your heatran checks healthy enough to reliably switch in, and Tran can continuously pressure the team.
My List: once again, a non issue since, like I said, nothing besides maybe rest primals and zygarde like switching into it, and even those still don't like being forced to rest. Not only that, but as the list shows, heatran checks a fuck ton of common defensive Pokemon, which is very important in today's meta.
Concluding thoughts: idk what thimo and Hunter have to do with this, sure, they're better players than me, but you're basically saying that if they used it and didn't nom it, then heatran isn't good? Doesn't make much sense to me, but let's move on. A lot of the times you referenced heatran being overrated and stuff, which is just simply false. It took 9, yes 9 months to get this on vr, and I had to fight tooth and nail to get it even somewhat recognized. Even then, it barely got on vr. This Mon isn't being overrated at all imo. I'm just going to close with the fact that a lot of the points you made are simply things I've acknowledged before and what keeps it back from being a truly great Pokemon. However, I fail to see what enlightening new info you brought up that warrants it being removed from vr. This was obviously you calling me out, don't have a problem with that, just PM me next time lol. That's it for me, I got some noms in the works tho, dw.
Scumbag rhymes with crumb bag so im pretty sure zen just didnt want those potato chips u offered him, no harm done :)

Edit: also nomming something cuz why not
Kartana UR --> D

This mon is a MASSIVE threat on webs teams, and can sweep a lot of teams on its own. With a base attack equivalent of mega ray, it has the raw power with the addition of a possible z move depending on what you want, also to note most mega rays (besides scarf) will normally run adamant nature so a jolly kartana can/will outspeed it. also most people see kartana as an absolute paper thin mon (and while thats true in the literal sense) this mon will not be beaten by most priority moves due to its massive defense stat. If you struggle vs ekiller or even espeed mega ray with ur webs team, adding a kartana cant hurt as espeed from both will not even 3ko. With access to Swords Dance, and great stab coverage, along with a potential z move slot or even just raw life orb, i think it deserves a spot in D rank. One more thing to note thats kind of a funny thing: Smart strike does not check accuracy, so u never have to worry about bp or evasion in general with this move, and a z move could devastate a scolipede early if they arent careful

Edit #2: Forgot the Z-Tailwind set too. Just want to point it out and give a s/o to poison adhesive for winning with it in ag ssnl. great set on webs as well
 
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Game Moderator

Banned deucer.
I personally would not use a move below 80% accuracy in a competitive setting. So good luck hitting this move when it matters!
If anyone has played mons for a decent amount of time they would know how frustrating it is when a move misses when you really need it to hit. Especially in the long run, there's no use if it hits against every low ladder player ever only to miss and get a whopping -30 (or worse) when you finally got somewhere, I think this is something every player should consider when teambuilding and using this as a reason for a nomination especially just goes to show the quality of the playerbase, no offense. Personally, I wouldn't use a move below 100% accuracy unless it really couldn't be helped like Toxic or if it can afford to miss a couple of turns, like Hurricane on Vivillon.

ONLY VIABLE OPTION THAT COUNTERS NAGANADEL
Which mon is this?

p.s sorry but you knew full well what you were getting into when you use inaccurate moves, yet you still proceed to blame hax
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
If anyone has played mons for a decent amount of time they would know how frustrating it is when a move misses when you really need it to hit. Especially in the long run, there's no use if it hits against every low ladder player ever only to miss and get a whopping -30 (or worse) when you finally got somewhere, I think this is something every player should consider when teambuilding and using this as a reason for a nomination especially just goes to show the quality of the playerbase, no offense. Personally, I wouldn't use a move below 100% accuracy unless it really couldn't be helped like Toxic or if it can afford to miss a couple of turns, like Hurricane on Vivillon.


Which mon is this?

p.s sorry but you knew full well what you were getting into when you use inaccurate moves, yet you still proceed to blame hax
Except he wasn't blaming hax, he was using it as a point against Heatran since its "niche" relies on using said inaccurate move, which kinda sucks. You should be on the same side as him as far as I can tell.
Anyway, I think the issue with Heatran just comes down to poor standards for what makes D rank. In the last 2 updates we didn't rank Heatran and ranked Serperior, then unranked Serperior and ranked Heatran (or something like that). By conventional standards Heatran is kinda terrible and doesn't add much to a team, but it can technically do some things and we don't have a decent enough measure of whether or not that deserves a rank. Before the next update I'm going to work with council on this so we can hopefully get at least a little bit more consistent.
 

pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
I would like to come in here and make a couple (possibly dumb) nominations now.

Liepard ur->D.
There's a strategy (albeit sort of gimmicky) going around with liepard using assist spore with prankster. I won't go into detail, since Elo Bandit's got us covered in this video. I'm not sure if it should be put in D just off that, but it's definitely a consideration.

Stakataka ur->D
Trick Room Stakataka is a veritable menace with an absurdly strong Gyro Ball. It's probably the most needed TR pokemon in this meta, being a setter AND abuser.

Tapu Koko ur->D
Koko is a cornerstone of a new strategy coming up: electrospam, which is just psyspam with electric terrain/types. There is precedent in Lele for this.
 

Geysers

not round
is a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I would like to come in here and make a couple (possibly dumb) nominations now.

Liepard ur->D.
There's a strategy (albeit sort of gimmicky) going around with liepard using assist spore with prankster. I won't go into detail, since Elo Bandit's got us covered in this video. I'm not sure if it should be put in D just off that, but it's definitely a consideration.

Stakataka ur->D
Trick Room Stakataka is a veritable menace with an absurdly strong Gyro Ball. It's probably the most needed TR pokemon in this meta, being a setter AND abuser.

Tapu Koko ur->D
Koko is a cornerstone of a new strategy coming up: electrospam, which is just psyspam with electric terrain/types. There is precedent in Lele for this.
Tiny nitpick: I have seen exactly zero electrospam teams on ladder in the last month. Koko is amazing in Robyn’s electriCITY team, which demonstrates koko’s niche very well. I don’t really think that electrospam is even that good, because most electric mons aren’t as fast as deo a. Also: mmx is bad
 

Guard

حرروا فلسطين
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
OMPL Champion
Time for my first AG post in ages.

167355
Greninja &
167356
Cloyster to at least D

Greninja and Cloyster's niche should be pretty obvious. They are HO suicide leads. The fact that a trash lead like Slurpuff is ranked and Greninja and Cloyster aren't is unfathomable to me. This fact on its own should secure themselves a place in at least D, but let me break down the merits of these leads for the sake of completion.

Here's a list of viable suicide leads in AG:
1.
Smeargle (offers Sticky Web and Baton Pass strategies, and has the ability to cripple anything with Paralysis/Poison through Glare/Nuzzle/Toxic Thread)
2.
Excadrill (offers Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin and can cripple defoggers with Toxic and 1v1 a lot of them with Rock Tomb; also sets hazards against Stall)
3.
Deoxys-Speed (offers Stealth Rock, Spikes, Magic Coat, a fast Taunt and can 1v1 Magic Bounce with Skill Swap)
4.
Shuckle (offers Stealth Rock and Sticky Web and can cripple defoggers with Toxic or prevent setup with Encore)
5.
Slurpuff (umm, offers Sticky Web and can cripple stuff with Unburden Endeavor)

Now compare:
167355
Greninja (offers Spikes, Toxic Spikes and a Taunt fast enough to prevent Arceus's defog. Can emergency spinblock with Shadow Sneak or do some meaningful chip with Ice Beam)
167356
Cloyster (offers Spikes or Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin. Anti leads Smeargle, Deoxys-S, Excadrill and to an extent Shuckle, isn't passive and outright sweeps Baton Pass)

Greninja and Cloyster are the only viable lead Pokemon with Toxic Spikes in their arsenal, which offers different HO teambuilding strategies, since Toxic Spikes in particular pressures teams a lot, especially teams lacking Poisonceus and Mega Gengar. That directly gives them a niche nothing else has.

Greninja:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-882806878https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-881755208https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883004847https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883014684https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883308357https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-882988840

Cloyster:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883818969https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883831066https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883835824https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883837496And fyi, cloyster/greninja HO is the only thing that got me into the top #3 of AG

Edit: Oops! Edited Slurpuff in, thanks for pointing out Banana...also noticed Scolipede is ranked. Is that because of its suicide lead set cuz I might as well add that too?
 
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pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
Time for my first AG post in ages.

View attachment 167355 Greninja & View attachment 167356 Cloyster to at least D

Greninja and Cloyster's niche should be pretty obvious. They are HO suicide leads. The fact that a trash lead like Slurpuff is ranked and Greninja and Cloyster aren't is unfathomable to me. This fact on its own should secure themselves a place in at least D, but let me break down the merits of these leads for the sake of completion.

Here's a list of viable suicide leads in AG:
1.
Smeargle (offers Sticky Web and Baton Pass strategies, and has the ability to cripple anything with Paralysis/Poison through Glare/Nuzzle/Toxic Thread)
2.
Excadrill (offers Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin and can cripple defoggers with Toxic and 1v1 a lot of them with Rock Tomb; also sets hazards against Stall)
3.
Deoxys-Speed (offers Stealth Rock, Spikes, Magic Coat, a fast Taunt and can 1v1 Magic Bounce with Skill Swap)
4.
Shuckle (offers Stealth Rock and Sticky Web and can cripple defoggers with Toxic or prevent setup with Encore)
5.
Slurpuff (umm, offers Sticky Web)

Now compare:
View attachment 167355 Greninja (offers Spikes, Toxic Spikes and a Taunt fast enough to prevent Arceus's defog. Can emergency spinblock with Shadow Sneak or do some meaningful chip with Ice Beam)
View attachment 167356 Cloyster (offers Spikes or Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin. Anti leads Smeargle, Deoxys-S, Excadrill and to an extent Shuckle, isn't passive and outright sweeps Baton Pass)

Greninja and Cloyster are the only viable lead Pokemon with Toxic Spikes in their arsenal, which offers different HO teambuilding strategies, since Toxic Spikes in particular pressures teams a lot, especially teams lacking Poisonceus and Mega Gengar. That directly gives them a niche nothing else has.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-882806878https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-881755208https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883004847https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883014684https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-882988840

Don't have any Cloyster replays, but might add some later
And fyi, cloyster/greninja HO is the only thing that got me into the top #3 of AG
I agree with everything you say here. Only problem is that those two don't offer stealth rock, and as such, I would put them below shuckle but above slurpuff. I'd say cloyster's better than greninja due to its possiblilties with shell smash to sweep in some cases.
 

Geysers

not round
is a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Time for my first AG post in ages.

View attachment 167355 Greninja & View attachment 167356 Cloyster to at least D

Greninja and Cloyster's niche should be pretty obvious. They are HO suicide leads. The fact that a trash lead like Slurpuff is ranked and Greninja and Cloyster aren't is unfathomable to me. This fact on its own should secure themselves a place in at least D, but let me break down the merits of these leads for the sake of completion.

Here's a list of viable suicide leads in AG:
1.
Smeargle (offers Sticky Web and Baton Pass strategies, and has the ability to cripple anything with Paralysis/Poison through Glare/Nuzzle/Toxic Thread)
2.
Excadrill (offers Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin and can cripple defoggers with Toxic and 1v1 a lot of them with Rock Tomb; also sets hazards against Stall)
3.
Deoxys-Speed (offers Stealth Rock, Spikes, Magic Coat, a fast Taunt and can 1v1 Magic Bounce with Skill Swap)
4.
Shuckle (offers Stealth Rock and Sticky Web and can cripple defoggers with Toxic or prevent setup with Encore)
5.
Slurpuff (umm, offers Sticky Web)

Now compare:
View attachment 167355 Greninja (offers Spikes, Toxic Spikes and a Taunt fast enough to prevent Arceus's defog. Can emergency spinblock with Shadow Sneak or do some meaningful chip with Ice Beam)
View attachment 167356 Cloyster (offers Spikes or Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin. Anti leads Smeargle, Deoxys-S, Excadrill and to an extent Shuckle, isn't passive and outright sweeps Baton Pass)

Greninja and Cloyster are the only viable lead Pokemon with Toxic Spikes in their arsenal, which offers different HO teambuilding strategies, since Toxic Spikes in particular pressures teams a lot, especially teams lacking Poisonceus and Mega Gengar. That directly gives them a niche nothing else has.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-882806878https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-881755208https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883004847https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883014684https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-882988840

Don't have any Cloyster replays, but might add some later
And fyi, cloyster/greninja HO is the only thing that got me into the top #3 of AG
You missed that slurpuff has access to endeavour + unburden, allowing it to kill a mon unless your opponent is smart and leads with marsh or something with priority.

Edit: editing your post afterwards to correct something I pointed out, while not stating that you edited it has the effect of making it look like you’re trying to make it look like you already mentioned that and I missed it. If that isn’t your intention, it’s probably worth mentioning that you edited your post, like this.

Edit 2: I’m not happy that you dissed Slurpuff, I just want to make that clear.
 
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Time for my first AG post in ages.

View attachment 167355 Greninja & View attachment 167356 Cloyster to at least D

Greninja and Cloyster's niche should be pretty obvious. They are HO suicide leads. The fact that a trash lead like Slurpuff is ranked and Greninja and Cloyster aren't is unfathomable to me. This fact on its own should secure themselves a place in at least D, but let me break down the merits of these leads for the sake of completion.

Here's a list of viable suicide leads in AG:
1.
Smeargle (offers Sticky Web and Baton Pass strategies, and has the ability to cripple anything with Paralysis/Poison through Glare/Nuzzle/Toxic Thread)
2.
Excadrill (offers Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin and can cripple defoggers with Toxic and 1v1 a lot of them with Rock Tomb; also sets hazards against Stall)
3.
Deoxys-Speed (offers Stealth Rock, Spikes, Magic Coat, a fast Taunt and can 1v1 Magic Bounce with Skill Swap)
4.
Shuckle (offers Stealth Rock and Sticky Web and can cripple defoggers with Toxic or prevent setup with Encore)
5.
Slurpuff (umm, offers Sticky Web and can cripple stuff with Unburden Endeavor)

Now compare:
View attachment 167355 Greninja (offers Spikes, Toxic Spikes and a Taunt fast enough to prevent Arceus's defog. Can emergency spinblock with Shadow Sneak or do some meaningful chip with Ice Beam)
View attachment 167356 Cloyster (offers Spikes or Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin. Anti leads Smeargle, Deoxys-S, Excadrill and to an extent Shuckle, isn't passive and outright sweeps Baton Pass)

Greninja and Cloyster are the only viable lead Pokemon with Toxic Spikes in their arsenal, which offers different HO teambuilding strategies, since Toxic Spikes in particular pressures teams a lot, especially teams lacking Poisonceus and Mega Gengar. That directly gives them a niche nothing else has.

Greninja:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-882806878https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-881755208https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883004847https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883014684https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883308357https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-882988840

Cloyster:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883818969https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883831066https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883835824https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-883837496And fyi, cloyster/greninja HO is the only thing that got me into the top #3 of AG

Edit: Oops! Edited Slurpuff in, thanks for pointing out Banana...also noticed Scolipede is ranked. Is that because of its suicide lead set cuz I might as well add that too?
Scolipede is ranked because of it's suicide lead set because like the two pokemon you metioned, it offers spikes and tspikes and it can also cripple things with endeavor.
 
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pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
So I'm gonna make a huge nom list, but they will be all focused around one playstyle: Trick Room. I'd like to briefly explain why TR is viable, and then get to the nominations.
So, IMO, theres three things needed to make TR viable: Setters, Abusers, and few common things that f*** it up.
Setters: arceus has access to Trick room, do I need to say more? I prefer arceus fairy, for good matchups against Mega Ray and Zygarde-C. Lunala, Necrozma-DM, and Stakataka (all fall under abusers), can also set it up.

Abusers: I mentioned lunala, necrozma-dm, and stakataka, but I think it's worthy of elaboration.
Lunala can set up a calm mind and throw off a powerful nuke with menacing Moonraze Maelstrom (hopefully i spelled that right), even OHKOing spdef ferrothorn. Psyshock and moongeist help too, and being able to set up TR in a pinch is noice.
Necrozma-DM can run a slight change to it's rock polish + SD set, specifically running weakness policy, sd, tr, and then 2 attacks. Similar as above, but hates being will-o-wisped. You could probably run a special set, but I dunno.
Stakataka: I've nommed this once, but it's probably a good time to elaborate. Gyro Ball picks up kills on a lot of fast pokemon, while stone edge and earthquake give excellent coverage. It can set up TR too. It can fix its crippling weakness to eq with air balloon, which allows for ballsy plays (as illustrated in this replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-886835219). With the right EV and IV spread, it can even get beast boost in attack rather than defense. It does hate being will-o-wisped tho.
Kyogre (primal or specs): Water spout, min speed, full spatk and hp. I think we all know how powerful a water spout is on scarf. Imagine that with specs or blue orb. And fast. Do I need to say more?
Things that F***it up:
Reverse trick room is rare, only really being viable with necrozma, and even then it's difficult to fit it in.
Slow tanks are dicks, but lunala or one of the others should be able to just muscle through it, and they aren't very common other than ferrothorn.
Really, there aren't a ton of viable slow pokemon in this meta. That would be what fucks this up.
So, clearly, TR is viable.
So now for nominations!
If you read the above, these should be clear.
Stakataka UR->D
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane shouldn't need a change, but its possible that it should be S- due to the mindgames w/ ultra burst and TR.
Lunala A- -> A
Kyogre (not primal) B- -> B
Primal Kyogre A- -> A
Arceus-Fairy A -> A+
Bleh. I'm going to take a break from pokemon now.
 
So I'm gonna make a huge nom list, but they will be all focused around one playstyle: Trick Room. I'd like to briefly explain why TR is viable, and then get to the nominations.
So, IMO, theres three things needed to make TR viable: Setters, Abusers, and few common things that f*** it up.
Setters: arceus has access to Trick room, do I need to say more? I prefer arceus fairy, for good matchups against Mega Ray and Zygarde-C. Lunala, Necrozma-DM, and Stakataka (all fall under abusers), can also set it up.

Abusers: I mentioned lunala, necrozma-dm, and stakataka, but I think it's worthy of elaboration.
Lunala can set up a calm mind and throw off a powerful nuke with menacing Moonraze Maelstrom (hopefully i spelled that right), even OHKOing spdef ferrothorn. Psyshock and moongeist help too, and being able to set up TR in a pinch is noice.
Necrozma-DM can run a slight change to it's rock polish + SD set, specifically running weakness policy, sd, tr, and then 2 attacks. Similar as above, but hates being will-o-wisped. You could probably run a special set, but I dunno.
Stakataka: I've nommed this once, but it's probably a good time to elaborate. Gyro Ball picks up kills on a lot of fast pokemon, while stone edge and earthquake give excellent coverage. It can set up TR too. It can fix its crippling weakness to eq with air balloon, which allows for ballsy plays (as illustrated in this replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-886835219). With the right EV and IV spread, it can even get beast boost in attack rather than defense. It does hate being will-o-wisped tho.
Kyogre (primal or specs): Water spout, min speed, full spatk and hp. I think we all know how powerful a water spout is on scarf. Imagine that with specs or blue orb. And fast. Do I need to say more?
Things that F***it up:
Reverse trick room is rare, only really being viable with necrozma, and even then it's difficult to fit it in.
Slow tanks are dicks, but lunala or one of the others should be able to just muscle through it, and they aren't very common other than ferrothorn.
Really, there aren't a ton of viable slow pokemon in this meta. That would be what fucks this up.
So, clearly, TR is viable.
So now for nominations!
If you read the above, these should be clear.
Stakataka UR->D
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane shouldn't need a change, but its possible that it should be S- due to the mindgames w/ ultra burst and TR.
Lunala A- -> A
Kyogre (not primal) B- -> B
Primal Kyogre A- -> A
Arceus-Fairy A -> A+
Bleh. I'm going to take a break from pokemon now.

There is only one nom in this that I strongly support and that is the stakataka to D nom

The first think we need to talk about when nomming stakataka is that it's air balloon set is the best mray check in the game (https://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-03/moveset/gen7anythinggoes-1760.txt: Look in mega rayquaza checks) able to reliably set up trick room and then kill with gyro ball after rocks. Stakataka can also check fairyceus (if not running will o wisp), ekiller, arceus ground, and unecro and many more pokemon

Once stakataka gets it's first kill it can also proceed to sweep because to the boosts it gets from beast boost and it can easily snowball through a team

Stakataka's biggest weakness is that it gets walled by a ton of mons commonly run on balance teams such as support arcues, ferrothron (if you don't run superpower) and defensive dusk man but once you remove those threats stakataka can come in and clean.

If you want to build around stakataka you may need to have at least one other trick room abuser to make sure that you don't get screwed over by your own trick room after you die, but really that isn't too much of a burden on hyper offense teams and staka also tends to shine best on full trick room teams

Stakataka is generally used best late game after most mons have been weakened and staka is able to clean but stakataka is a pokemon generally worth using even on non trick room team
Some replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-876051192
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874742031
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874678840
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874604147
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874571100
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874561970
 
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pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
There is only one nom in this that I strongly support and that is the stakataka to D nom

The first think we need to talk about when nomming stakataka is that it's air balloon set is the best mray check in the game (https://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-03/moveset/gen7anythinggoes-1760.txt: Look in mega rayquaza checks) able to reliably set up trick room and then kill with gyro ball after rocks. Stakataka can also check fairyceus (if not running will o wisp), ekiller, arceus ground, and unecro and many more pokemon

Once stakataka gets it's first kill it can also proceed to sweep because to the boosts it gets from beast boost and it can easily snowball through a team

Stakataka's biggest weakness is that it gets walled by a ton of mons commonly run on balance teams such as support arcues, ferrothron (if you don't run superpower) and defensive dusk man but once you remove those threats stakataka can come in and clean.

If you want to build around stakataka you may need to have at least one other trick room abuser to make sure that you don't get screwed over by your own trick room after you die, but really that isn't too much of a burden on hyper offense teams and staka also tends to shine best on full trick room team

Stakataka is generally used best late game after most mons have been weakened and staka is able to clean but stakataka is a pokemon generally worth using even on non trick room team
Some replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-876051192
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874742031
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874678840
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874604147
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874571100
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-874561970
I agree that Stakataka is an awesome pokemon, and can rip holes through teams, especially HO teams. It struggles with balance and stall however, but that can easily be patched up. It's also a good check to Yveltal and Ho-Oh (stone edge), and has plenty of utility with stealth rocks and trick room. It probably best fits on dedicated TR teams, but it's not a bad pick for normal HO either.
Also: here's the best set
Stakataka @ Air Balloon
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Lonely Nature
IVs: 15 Def / 0 Spe
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Gyro Ball
- Trick Room
The 15 ivs in defense and lonely nature make it so that beast boost raises atk over defense.
EDIT: 15 ivs give atk beast boost, so use that. Changed from 13.
And here's some calcs versus mega ray:
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Stakataka: 213-251 (65.3 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Stakataka: 52-62 (15.9 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Stakataka: 23-27 (7 - 8.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Clearly, a stakataka player can swap into a dragon ascent (assuming they know the ray doesn't carry eq), take one, take a V-Create, and trick room up, although not the most consistent, so it is a inconsistent counter, but a consistent check, which is excellent.

I don't insist on the other noms i made. They were more suggestions than not.
 
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