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Official USUM DOU Stage 1 Suspect Voting
- Thread starter Idyll
- Start date
- Status
Marshadow: Ban
This is my first time voting in a suspect so I apologize in advance if I've done something wrong (Hopefully this is the right place to make this preliminary post, and if it isn't then I'd like to request for it to be moved to the appropriate thread or for me to be informed so that I can paste it over.). I'm relatively new to doubles itself, but knew I had to partake in this suspect test as I have very strong feelings about it and feel that I have played enough with the suspect (Marshadow) to have a somewhat noteworthy opinion on the matter.
I actually laddered every single game for this suspect with a team containing Marshadow, with the main one I utilised being located in the spoiler at the bottom of this post. I didn't create it, but it was simply too powerful not too use.
Before anyone reads my comments on Marshadow, I'd like to request for them to watch this replay, which showcases the immense power Marshadow holds over the metagame, and how you have to account for it when teambuilding or suffer the irreparable consequences when you run into one ingame.
Replay = https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesoususpecttest-680432818
He brought creativity and I brought a Marshadow. I was getting outplayed at 3AM but hey, who cares when I can just spam one button with Marshadow over and over again. The replay also showcases the immense strength of the Kyurem B + Marshadow core, which I believe is far stronger than it should be.
The biggest problem I had in any given doubles game was when my opponent also had a Marshadow. My personal counter to Marshadow came in the form of having my own Marshadow alongside my Kyurem-Black on the field at the same time. My opponent ALWAYS attacked my Marshadow with their own because they knew just how much of a threat Marshadow, so I'd protect with Marshadow and icy wind with Kyurem to make sure that I won the speed tie next turn. Marshadow is very frail, but none of that matters when you can kill anything on the field before it can hit you with a supereffective move (enter Tapu Lele & Mega Metagross).
My overall issues with Marshadow can be found below.
I'm going to be voting ban on Marshadow, as it's (in my eyes) changing the meta for the worse and restricting teambuilding creativity. It also has great typing and its own exclusive Z move which is simply devastating, as well as life orb variants being able to outspeed and OHKO other common threats + really having no switch ins if the pokemon in your other slot has ice type moves. The only solid counter to Marshadow, in my eyes, is Marshadow itself. It's simply too much to deal with.
I actually laddered every single game for this suspect with a team containing Marshadow, with the main one I utilised being located in the spoiler at the bottom of this post. I didn't create it, but it was simply too powerful not too use.
Before anyone reads my comments on Marshadow, I'd like to request for them to watch this replay, which showcases the immense power Marshadow holds over the metagame, and how you have to account for it when teambuilding or suffer the irreparable consequences when you run into one ingame.
Replay = https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesoususpecttest-680432818
He brought creativity and I brought a Marshadow. I was getting outplayed at 3AM but hey, who cares when I can just spam one button with Marshadow over and over again. The replay also showcases the immense strength of the Kyurem B + Marshadow core, which I believe is far stronger than it should be.
The biggest problem I had in any given doubles game was when my opponent also had a Marshadow. My personal counter to Marshadow came in the form of having my own Marshadow alongside my Kyurem-Black on the field at the same time. My opponent ALWAYS attacked my Marshadow with their own because they knew just how much of a threat Marshadow, so I'd protect with Marshadow and icy wind with Kyurem to make sure that I won the speed tie next turn. Marshadow is very frail, but none of that matters when you can kill anything on the field before it can hit you with a supereffective move (enter Tapu Lele & Mega Metagross).
My overall issues with Marshadow can be found below.
- Discourages anyone else from setting up and forces players to account for Marshadow when teambuilding: A single mon + move has done so much. You see variations of the same teams over and over again higher up on the ladder, and one of the reasons for this is the presence of Marshadow. If anyone was gutsy enough to opt for a unique set up team in this current meta, they'd be forced to pay the price for it whenever they run into a team running Marshadow. They may be safe lower down on the ladder because of this, but they're never going to get a good peak (e.g 1300+) without running a Marshadow of their own or a solid counter (And you should never be punished for not having a certain Pokemon in your team).
- It's so hard to switch in on Marshadow. On it's own, Marshadow is nasty to switch into. Intimidating with Landorus would be a viable option, but that's off the table if your opponent has anything with an ice move in their other slot (Which is very often, considering Mega Metagross, Tapu Fini and Kyurem Black are everywhere). I'd also refer to my previous point when discussing Landorus as a counter to Marshadow, which is that one should not be heavily punished for not choosing one Pokemon (Marshadow) and be forced to bring another (Landorus) just to deal with that single Pokemon out of the 802 in existence. On the team I used, I grouped Marshadow and Kyurem Black as the central core. Marshadow with life orb can kill anything without bulk, and Kyurem not only deters switch-ins, but can also slow down anything that would revenge kill Marshadow with icy wind + protect. Amoonguss would also be a viable counter to Marshadow but is never used because it is flat out murdered by other prominent doubles mons such as Tailwind Zapdos, Kyurem B and M Metagross, and all intimidate mons just die to kyurem or a HP ice.
- Great typing and fast enough to outspeed & OHKO many Pokemon that would otherwise be threats to it (e.g Mega Metagross with Zen Headbutt). Marshadow in itself is barely tolerable with its good typing and stats, but add on an exclusive Z move alongside a stat stealing, damage dealing move and it just becomes excessive. I don't really want to filll up a slot (and possibly a mon) with ally switch just to get out of the way of an incoming spectral thief every game. Once again goes back to my first point, which is that you shouldn't be punished for bringing/not bringing a certain pokemon into battle.
I'm going to be voting ban on Marshadow, as it's (in my eyes) changing the meta for the worse and restricting teambuilding creativity. It also has great typing and its own exclusive Z move which is simply devastating, as well as life orb variants being able to outspeed and OHKO other common threats + really having no switch ins if the pokemon in your other slot has ice type moves. The only solid counter to Marshadow, in my eyes, is Marshadow itself. It's simply too much to deal with.
Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
- Protect
Zapdos @ Misty Seed
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 76 SpA / 60 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Tailwind
- Heat Wave
- Roost
Tapu Fini @ Mago Berry
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 36 SpA / 104 SpD / 48 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Muddy Water
- Moonblast
- Heal Pulse
- Protect
Marshadow @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat
- Protect
Landorus-Therian @ Groundium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Atk / 244 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Stone Edge
Kyurem-Black @ Assault Vest
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 HP / 244 Def / 4 SpA / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Icy Wind
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
- Protect
Zapdos @ Misty Seed
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 76 SpA / 60 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Tailwind
- Heat Wave
- Roost
Tapu Fini @ Mago Berry
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 36 SpA / 104 SpD / 48 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Muddy Water
- Moonblast
- Heal Pulse
- Protect
Marshadow @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat
- Protect
Landorus-Therian @ Groundium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Atk / 244 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Stone Edge
Kyurem-Black @ Assault Vest
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 HP / 244 Def / 4 SpA / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Icy Wind
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Marshadow: Ban
Marshadow: Do Not Ban
Marshadow: Ban
I'm torn on what I want to vote with this one. Marshadow is busted. This mon is a beast. For this suspect test, I assembled a team of the most "broken stuff" in the tier. Didn't consider team synergy at all.
I only used this team, I did use a charizard team for a couple games out of my 55. Using Marshadow is like using Z-Geo Xerneas in ubers, except worse. If you put it with a bunch of good stuff, and pivot correctly, it is impossible to deal with because it gets a KO whenever its on the field. On average when I was using it, it got 3-4 KOs a game. It's worse than Z-Geo Xern, because it doesn't need to setup.
The other problem is that my opponent could have a mon like standard volcanion out on the field, fire off a steam eruption, then Marshadow is free to pick up a KO the next turn. This mon doesn't die to strong attacks, thus it gets another KO, plus the one it got the turn before.
Technician Shadow Sneak is just busted. It KOs a lot of sweepers from half, so my opponent sits there thinking, is he going to sneak and KO my sweeper or Z-move/CC to KO my bulky mon. Or worse, opponent wins with a sweep, Marshadow says "bet", gets the crit sneak to win the game.
I kinda look at Marshadow like the Jirachi problem, the opponent is too busy focusing on Marshadow, that my other mons can do whatever they want to wreak havoc on my opponent. It enables CM Fini, Ferrothorn, and Salamence to wreak more havoc than normal. Don't even get me started on Scarf, Intimidate, Rock Slide (Landorus, but you get the point) + Marshadow. That combo just makes your opponent want to never play the game again.
Thus, I'm voting to ban Marshadow, I do fear what is going to happen to the meta after this little terror gets banned, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
I'm torn on what I want to vote with this one. Marshadow is busted. This mon is a beast. For this suspect test, I assembled a team of the most "broken stuff" in the tier. Didn't consider team synergy at all.
Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 60 Atk / 196 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Double-Edge
- Hyper Voice
- Tailwind
- Protect
Marshadow @ Marshadium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak
- Protect
Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Rock Slide
- Superpower
Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 156 SpA / 28 SpD
Modest Nature
- Muddy Water
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Protect
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Atk / 32 Def / 148 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect
Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch
- Protect
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 60 Atk / 196 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Double-Edge
- Hyper Voice
- Tailwind
- Protect
Marshadow @ Marshadium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak
- Protect
Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Rock Slide
- Superpower
Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 156 SpA / 28 SpD
Modest Nature
- Muddy Water
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Protect
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Atk / 32 Def / 148 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect
Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch
- Protect
I only used this team, I did use a charizard team for a couple games out of my 55. Using Marshadow is like using Z-Geo Xerneas in ubers, except worse. If you put it with a bunch of good stuff, and pivot correctly, it is impossible to deal with because it gets a KO whenever its on the field. On average when I was using it, it got 3-4 KOs a game. It's worse than Z-Geo Xern, because it doesn't need to setup.
The other problem is that my opponent could have a mon like standard volcanion out on the field, fire off a steam eruption, then Marshadow is free to pick up a KO the next turn. This mon doesn't die to strong attacks, thus it gets another KO, plus the one it got the turn before.
Technician Shadow Sneak is just busted. It KOs a lot of sweepers from half, so my opponent sits there thinking, is he going to sneak and KO my sweeper or Z-move/CC to KO my bulky mon. Or worse, opponent wins with a sweep, Marshadow says "bet", gets the crit sneak to win the game.
I kinda look at Marshadow like the Jirachi problem, the opponent is too busy focusing on Marshadow, that my other mons can do whatever they want to wreak havoc on my opponent. It enables CM Fini, Ferrothorn, and Salamence to wreak more havoc than normal. Don't even get me started on Scarf, Intimidate, Rock Slide (Landorus, but you get the point) + Marshadow. That combo just makes your opponent want to never play the game again.
Thus, I'm voting to ban Marshadow, I do fear what is going to happen to the meta after this little terror gets banned, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
Marshadow: Ban
Marshadow: Do Not Ban
- Status