Resource USUM Doubles OU Viability Rankings (Updated 11/16 on post #293)

[Jrenner]

Mega mawile UR -> 5
mega mawile is a crazy strong attacker on TR teams. It has over 600 attack with huge power, and over 1300 after just one swords dance boost, and due to respectable defences, great typing, and intimidate (pre mega), It has a pretty easy time getting off a swords dance boost.
Sucker punch hits absurdly hard even on neutral hits, and it can take on mons like gengar, metagross, all of the tapus, and a bunch more.

 

[RKD]

Mega mawile UR -> 5
mega mawile is a crazy strong attacker on TR teams. It has over 600 attack with huge power, and over 1300 after just one swords dance boost, and due to respectable defences, great typing, and intimidate (pre mega), It has a pretty easy time getting off a swords dance boost.
Sucker punch hits absurdly hard even on neutral hits, and it can take on mons like gengar, metagross, all of the tapus, and a bunch more.

Running SD + 2 attacks means you're losing a crucial coverage and forgoing Protect for SD isn't wise for a Pokemon that needs to outplay with it, while going 3 attacks + Tect means double or even triple intimidate cuts its power down quite a lot, especially with Incineroar being one of those offenders. Its defenses don't service its 50 HP base well enough for it to have a turn to setup freely on its own, needs more support in a TR setter to be optimal, and at this point I'd rather go Hyper Cutter pre-mega to actually nuke something turn 1 and not have to worry about a potential double intimidate switch in making its ability invalid. While it has a good typing, the amount of pressure and support for this mon to work in Incin meta is why I don't believe it should be 5 rn.

 

[Idyll]

First and foremost, I would like to apologize for not updating this thread in a timely manner for this round. College has been eating me alive for a month and a half now, and I am now merely a shell of my former Pokemon enthusiast self. The flames of my competitive spirit have since long dwindled, my being now merely mere smokes and ash; with its passing also comes my lack of any personal stake in updating such threads as this one further. As it stands, the validity in not just my being able to update this thread but also my being able to vote at all is at jeopardy; as I feel that I no longer play to the best of my ability, as deemed acceptable by my peers, I shall, to my deciding and as of my announcement, relinquish my responsibilities to vote and handle this thread. My replacement shall be picked at a later date by the fine Moderators of this subforum; you all need not wait nor be antsy.

I have decided to post both the lower-tier sweep and the main round together. This has been my decision due to convenience, my inability to timely update coming into play. In addition, as one would notice, I did not include a significant amount of nominations in this round. This is because I, the thread handler, have deemed the non-included nominations to lack any valid / decent reasoning for inclusion in the voting; most of them relied purely on flimsy anecdotes, of which anyone could make, but lacked a key component: a valid analysis on the Pokemon in question's standing in the metagame, as supported by evidence in trends and the like. It is simple to describe what a Pokemon is and does, but what is required is how good the Pokemon is and what the Pokemon does based on the environment it is in; the viability rankings does not rate Pokemon in a vacuum.

I have made the decision to step down while the round was underway. As I felt that I would not be able to do the nominations justice, I have decided to not participate (I am not an abstain vote). I participated in the lower-tier sweep, however.

Now, here are the votes for this round!

Lower-tier Sweep

*note: Memoric forgot that he can scroll down, and thus missed Zeraora. His lack of vote would not affect the result, however.

Mega Gengar: 1 -> 2

Hide

Demantoid: No, Incineroar being released (which was a long time ago) hasn’t had a major impact on Gengar since it is also a great partner for it.

Kaori: absolutely not, still easily the best mon in the tier outside of incineroar

MajorBowman: No, definitely still a super threatening mon with a lot of tools. I haven’t really seen anything that leads me to believe Gengar is in any worse of a place than it has been for the past few months

Marilli: yeah don’t know why this is dropping. Yes people stopped / are forced to stop bringing teams that lose to it hard, but even with all the counterteaming it remains one of the most super broken and centralizing pokemon in the tier for sure. Idk how it is any worse w.r.t. Metagame shifts.

SMB: no, every team should be really prepared for this mon, gengar remains as one of the most if not the most dominating mon on the tier

Talkingtree: no, it might not be quite as ubiquitous as it once was but Gengar is useful in every single game it’s used and is incredibly influential in both building and playing decisions.

Gothitelle: 3 -> 4

Hide

Demantoid: Yes. It’s harder to use right now than before because most of its best partners aren’t as effective.

Kaori: yes but given a small meta change it could easily shift right back up ie the loss of gengar or incin

MajorBowman: Yeah that’s fine, usage seems to be declining and it doesn’t have nearly the potency of the other trapper in the tier. Agree with Sam that I could see it rising back up to 3 but 4 is alright for now

Marilli: yeah sure, the mon itself is fine tho but there’s just so many super effective attacks and not much bulky setup flying around with gengar/incineroar being so dominant instead.

SMB: yes, the metagame has evolved and it is not as set up based as before which were when gothitelle excelled. Incineroar usage doesn’t help on its viability either.

Talkingtree: yes, I think people have largely figured out how to play against trapping more than when Goth was at its peak and trends aren’t shifting in its favor. I wouldn’t drop this any lower though.

VR Changes

Araquanid 5 -> 4
Diancie-Mega 5 -> 4
Tornadus 5 -> 4
Gothitelle 3 -> 4

The next VR round shall be as decided by the future keeper of this thread.

さようなら。

 

[Jrenner]

Deoxys 3->4 incineroar is really screwing with it... The amount of deoxys I've seen on a regular basis have dropped by like half, and a lot of the ones I see are carrying fight-z in order to deal with incineroar, because I t can't OHKO incineroar without it, and then it doesn't have the use of a sash so it's prone to being quickly killed before it has a chance to do anything by ether priority or a scarf user, Psychic terrain (which helps deoxys a lot) is a bit harder to pull off now that scarf lele is the most popular rn so any other terrain would end up being out first so fake out can't be avoided as easily. Just think the use is way down rn and for good reason, so yea 4 makes a lot of since IMO.

 

[MyRandomThoughts]

Mega Salamence 3-> 4
Ya I just made this nomination a while ago and what's changed since then? Nothing. Zero use in Snake since last nom, only saw 1 use in r8 of Seasonal, continues to be the least used mon in Tier 3 by a landslide, zero reason to use it over Zygarde, Intimitdate being everywhere... which is why I'm making this nomination again. It's just so bad.

Lurantis UR -> 5
This thing is scary in TR. Saw multiple uses of this in Snake, Seasonals, and a few roomtours with great success. Lurantis has the same coverage as Kartana, but has a niche that it can't be intimidated down and doesn't need to kill a pokemon to increase its attack thanks to contrary Superpower, but with the cost of not having access to speed control on its own. Seeing success on a high level with a great ability (and being surprisingly hard to counter), I feel like Lurantis earned a spot on the VR as something to be wary of.

 

[Jrenner]

Necrozma UR -> tier 5
Pretty good TR setter (I like it on semiroom a lot better than full room), good defenses, good spatk, and a ton of great moves. It sets itself apart from other TR setters because of its versatility. It can run stealth rocks, moonlight, a 3rd attacking move (along with what I find to work best, photon geyser and heat wave), ally switch, tect, or possibly knock off. Ive also used weakness policy, which can give it a monsterous 776 base spatk

 

[talkingtree]

Hey everyone, I'm taking this over! The next Lower Tier Sweep will be November 15, and every following sweep will be on the 15th of each month. The next round of full voting will be posted November 4th, so get your nominations in now. To start things off, following trends from Snake:

Kartana 3 -> 2
The immense power Kartana has is finding new ways to fit onto teams, with 16 uses so far in Stage 2 and a 63% winrate over the course of the tour. Grass and Fighting coverage does pretty well right now, since many teams' Grass resists are Incineroar, Kyurem-B, or Genesect - all of which take significant damage from Sacred Sword. The sheer usage alone should be enough to boost Kartana up, it's proving to be a mainstay of the current meta.

Gastrodon UR -> 4
Another discovery during Snake, Gastrodon's had an impressive 5-2 record so far. Its positive matchups against Incineroar, Mega Metagross, Mega Gengar, and Landorus-T make it useful in just about every battle, with Ground/Ice coverage taking on just about every team. It's also fairly flexible and deceptively tough to take down for any non-Grass-types.

 

[talkingtree]

[this was in response to a now-deleted post, but it could be useful information for others so I'm gonna leave it up]

Hey, just going to respond to give you a bit more reason as to why Memoric didn't include your earlier noms and why I'm inclined to potentially follow his lead. All your noms are supported solely by anecdotal evidence or pure facts about the Pokemon that everyone already knows. "Zapdos deserves a rise because it only has two weaknesses and it's immune to Ground" isn't compelling as an argument, but if you were to say "Whirlwind Zapdos and the recent rise of Kartana + Fini + Lando-T cores gives Zapdos more utility in the current metagame", then that tells us why it should be higher than it is right now and what's changed that really makes it worth considering a move.

I think most people would agree that our current VR list is fairly accurate, so you'll need more than just facts about what a Pokemon does to argue why the current list should be changed. Also, for nominations from UR to ranked, there should at least be some replays to support the nomination or some clear reference to uses in tournament play, which is the most prominent example of the state of the metagame.

If you want to edit your nominations to fit these guidelines, feel free to do so; if you do that or someone comes along to support some/all of these, I'll add them to the slate.

 

[Ezrael]

Mega-Manectric 3->2
Mega man has the value of being very strong vs. both M-Gengar and M-Metagross, the two most used megas, and lots of utility vs the third (excluding megaman), Char-y. Mane can switch vs Gengar w/ a fast Volt Switch, Snarl to reduce its damage, and it can Overheat and Intimidate Metagross. Manectric backs this up with a higher usage in SSD than Metagross, (13 vs 11) and a higher win rate (61% vs 54%). Manectric's ability to cycle intimidate and deal chip damage, it has a strong place in this metagame.

On a similar note, Victini fits really well on Manectric teams, which has led to its 17th usage and 85% win rate in SSD. It fights with Incineroar for a slot, but the utility of glaciate and incinerate on your fire type, especially on a team that has sufficient intimidate, e.g., from Manectric and Landorus, can outweigh the value of incineroar.
4->3 at least.

Hard yes on kartana btw

 

[talkingtree]

Along with this shift, we also have a shift in VR Council - Kaori has stepped down before this vote and marilli is stepping down right after. Thank you both for the time you've put into having your voices represented and keeping this resource up-to-date and accurate. Luckily, I also have some good news: AuraRayquaza's been added! The recent addition to DOU Council has had consistent results playing and building for a while, so his perspective should help offer something new to the council.

Deoxys-A 3 -> 4

AuraRayquaza: You don't see it much but its still really dangerous when you do. Sash sets are prone to just being switched around/incineroar'd until it dies but z move sets can be a real pain. Z psycho boost seriously pressures gengar while z focus blast hits a lot of good pokemon hard. No for me.

Demantoid: no. I think deo-a can still be very threatening in this meta. Item choices like fightinium z are probably better than other options now. Deoxys has a wide enough movepool and firepower than it can adapt to almost any defensive checks if people still want to use it.

MajorBowman: No, even though its usage has plummeted it’s still incredibly threatening in the right hands. It can run a few different offensive items (various Zs, Life Orb, etc) or the tried and true sash and still claim a kill or two each game. Remain 3.

Marilli: yeah no, this is still pretty threatening, you just need a good anti incineroar plan, which most teams should. It’s an amazing speed safety net and allows you to threaten things from above pretty easily. Amazing against offensive teams and hard to play around.

SMB: no, while i agree deo-a is slightly worse than a few months ago; mainly because you're kinda forced to run a +speed nature to outspeed both manectric and boosted kommo-o (which means you don't always get the ohko on fini with z psycho boost) and, due to incineroar, z focus blast sets are rising in popularity which is (arguably) a worse set than z psycho boost, anyways i still think tier 3 is fine for deo since, with its wide movepool, it can choose its checks and if you guess wrong what set it is running you're probably still losing more than 1 mon.

Talkingtree: no. Its usage has certainly declined and Incineroar’s the main reason for this, but Deoxys-A is still absurdly threatening to most teams. I feel like it’s an increasingly niche mon but it’s still just as good at what it does.

Mega Salamence 3 -> 4

AuraRayquaza: Yes. I think the fully special tw set is the only set thats any good now, being able to spread damage around decently, but its just not very good. Dd set just cannot get going because loads of teams run double intimidate and special sets just dont quite hit hard enough for this to be 3. 4 is a good spot.

Demantoid: Yes. Teams have been very unkind to mence for a very long time. I would personally rank it 5 for how ineffective it is at doing anything. Despite a decent special attack stat its Hyper Voices feel painfully weak for a mega slot and Intimidate ruins physical sets. It also offers little utility to most teams since it’s Tailwind set is :sobad: along with a bad defensive typing.

MajorBowman: No, Salamence still puts out some consistent damage and has some pretty positive matchups. The DD set isn’t too great but the special and mixed sets are still strong imo. Remain 3.

Marilli: yeah ok i suppose it’s time to drop this based on results, but i really think this is stronger than 4. I guess let it stay there until it becomes tournament-relevant. It definitely has the ability to be, for sure.

SMB: 4, the role compression of intimidate and tailwind is the only reason i see to use it and it’s bad at both things

Talkingtree: close one, but yes. Teams are adapting in a way that makes it easier to deal with Mega Salamence naturally and it doesn’t really have the results to back up a tier 3 placement. I think one of the few viable versions of Mega Salamence is what Bowman used in Snake - Flamethrower + Draco Meteor + Hyper Voice takes on Tapu Bulu / Kartana / Zygarde / non-AV Kyurem-B / Mega Scizor and gets around the fairly common double Intimidate teams by relying on its solid Special Attack.

Lurantis UR -> 5

AuraRayquaza: Yes definitely. Once it gets going it can be extremely hard to stop on semiroom compositions and loads of teams give it such opportunities to do so. Being able to shut out intimidate mons too is really nice and what gives it a niche over kartana.

Demantoid: Ok. It’s basically a Kartana for TR that’s harder to fit on teams.

MajorBowman: Abstain, I wasn’t aware this was actually a thing lol

Marilli: yeah this mons kinda nice. Grass is a good type. Fini / kart / incin / zyg / lando are centerpiece of the metagame and its got a very nice matchup against the current meta. Kartana’s generally better obviously but it’s ok.

SMB: yes, this mon is amazing in tr/semiroom teams and has a great mu vs some of the most popular team compositions rn (fini-incineroar-kartana-zygarde/landorus) while also being very annoying to some common trends at the moment like chansey or gastrodon

Talkingtree: Sure. As Kartana and Tapu Bulu have shown, Grass/Fighting coverage does pretty well in Doubles right now. Leaf Blade + Contrary Superpower + Knock Off will almost never be deadweight, benefitting from the ubiquity of Intimidate and getting off strong hits on lots of the meta or at the very least knocking off some items. I scoffed at Lurantis a few months ago but you can’t deny that it has a place in the meta right now.

Kartana 3 -> 2

AuraRayquaza: Yes. Incredible mon and an insane number of really good sets. Sash tw, grassium, fightinium, sub, berry, even av. You are required to invest in spdef to get the most out of it, but this isnt an issue and kartanas spdef is actually passable with investment. Good check to a lot of stuff and a fast tw means it fits on almost all of the good teams right now.

Demantoid: Yes. Only a few pokemon can reliably handle its powerful Grass and Fighting attacks with most teams relying on soft checks like Lando-T and Incineriar to beat it. It has just enough bulk that it can defensively check pokemon like Tapu Fini if it wants and still outspeed most relevant threats. It’s also one of the few things that can ohko Chansey.

MajorBowman: Yes, echoing everyone else that the recent discovery of Kartana’s versatility has propelled it to a pretty good place in the meta.

Marilli: yes this has shown results and its typing is actually really amazing in the current meta. It’s not the most versatile pokemon but it has a very compact moveset and stat distribution that allows you to exactly achieve what you need it to do.

SMB: yes, snake has helped a lot to realize that kartana was actually really good so it deserves this rise. All of its sets are really threatening offensively while also having a decent speed and ok bulk. Probably the best offensive tw setter rn.

Talkingtree: my nom

Gastrodon UR -> 4

AuraRayquaza: Gastro is definitely good enough to be ranked, but i think 5 is a better place for it. It can check some good megas rn like gengar and metagross, but its damage output can be a bit underwhelming at times and it can just end up sitting there. Idk im not sold on it going up to 4

Demantoid: Yes. it’s fairly good at checking anything that’s not Grass-type or Chansey. Its bulk and/or power can sometimes be a little disappointing but it can control the game if it has a good match up.

MajorBowman: I’d say 5 for now, definitely think it deserves to be ranked but I don’t know if I’d go so far as to say 4 immediately.

Marilli: 5 is ok for sure but i’m not sold on 4. It deserves to be ranked and has a nice typing and all but its overall stats can be very lacking and it lacks the ability to pressure the opponent without the use of the z-move.

SMB: yes, it can be a huge lost of momentum sometimes but it's also really good vs most of the top tier mons, can have some offensive pressure with its z earth power set and it's a nice win condition

Talkingtree: my nom

Mega Manectric 3 -> 2

AuraRayquaza: Yes. One of the best megas rn and has the right moveset to be really good. Volt switch and snarl give it a not bad mu vs gengar teams while it has coverage for zygarde, lando or kartana, all would-be checks.

Demantoid: Yes. I think this is probably the best pivot in the tier right now. It should mostly be used to facilitate other threats rather than trying to beat things by itself.

MajorBowman: I’d say remain 3 just because it’s only really good as a pivot which feels like a weird use of your mega slot. Definitely good at what it does, but I’m not sure what it does makes it worthy of 2.

Marilli: yeah this has proven to be a pretty good pick over the course of the metagame development. While it’s not exactly a powerhouse that threatens a lot of direct damage, pivoting and putting ur team in a better position is still worth a high spot on the VR.

SMB: can i say 2.5? I'd keep it in 3, while it can provide excellent support and it's great vs some popular mons i'd expect something more for a mon that's taking your mega slot, its offensive and defensive capabilities can be pretty disappointing sometimes

Talkingtree: ehhh yes, barely. Fast pivots are doing well, especially with Mane beating Gene/Kart and outrunning Gengar to Snarl it. I feel like there are times that it doesn’t have enough offensive presence and it’s not quite bulky enough for my liking, but its style plays really well in the meta right now.

Victini 4 -> 3

AuraRayquaza: Yes. Av has shown itself to be really good this snake and it has everything youd want from an av mon: speed control, the ability to pivot, strong moves and even berry destruction.

Demantoid: Yes. Incinerate is sogood when half of teams run 50% berries. While it is weak to rocks, its typing allows it to check things like Kartana, Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu and Metagross in one slot which is very valuable.

MajorBowman: Yes, fully agree with what AuraRayquaza said in that his does a lot of things with just one set, in addition to still being a decent scarfer or TR setter

Marilli: yeah av victini is pretty strong with lots of utility. Its defensive typing is also actually pretty good, too.

SMB: yes, av set has great utility with incinerate, glaciate and uturn and does well checking stuff like kartana, zard y and psyspam

Talkingtree: yes. AV Incinerate has proven exceedingly valuable and in general it’s gained considerably more versatility since it was placed in 4 for its ability to pick a mon with Scarf Final Gambit. Incineroar’s still a thorn in its side but being able to burn its Berry at least makes Incineroar a bit more hesitant to switch in.

Changes
Mega Salamence 3 -> 4
Lurantis UR -> 5
Kartana 3 -> 2
Gastrodon UR -> 5
Mega Manectric 3 -> 2
Victini 4 -> 3

The next shift is three weeks from now (November 26th) and this was primarily noms for rises, if you have anything that you think is overrated right now or any other discussion point post away!

 

[AtmosphereVGC]

With Gengarite banned time to make some noms.

Volcanion 2->3
This mon I had avoided noming down in the past mainly, because it looked like the only fire type to use if you weren't using Incineroar or Fini for the bulky water role... both of which are S tier which make it a little harder to justify not using either and with Victini being on the trend up the former role it had as the backup non mega fire type is even more contested. Gengar ban doesn't help this either as another Victini check is removed honestly could see Victini moving to 2 because of this, but won't nom it now since it just recently moved up.

Nihilego UR->5
With Mega Gengar gone might as well nom a different potential poison type and this one is a strange one. Nihilego threatens KOs / big damage on Incineroar, Zapdos, Kyurem-B and the tapus thanks to its unique offensive typing and with hp ice it could do a decent chunk to Lando-T along with Zygarde- unfortunately it is really just a glass cannon as the majority of what it hits can do major damage back.

Gothitelle 4->3
Going to keep this simple, but Mega Gengar is gone the main thing that contested its trap. STAG SOGOOD

 

[Yuichi]

Volcanion 2->3
This mon I had avoided noming down in the past mainly, because it looked like the only fire type to use if you weren't using Incineroar or Fini for the bulky water role... both of which are S tier which make it a little harder to justify not using either and with Victini being on the trend up the former role it had as the backup non mega fire type is even more contested. Gengar ban doesn't help this either as another Victini check is removed honestly could see Victini moving to 2 because of this, but won't nom it now since it just recently moved up.

Im definitely disagreeing with the Volcanion nom here. Volcanion is incredible right now, being an offensive fire/water that is able to check stuff that both Incin and Victini cannot, such as opposing Incins, Lando T and even Fini should it carry sludge bomb. It also a better has a better trick room matchup than both Incin and Victini thanks to its water STAB and the flexibility it provides in its third slot, allowing it to run a variety of utility/coverage moves. As a bulky water, it is also able to stay in on non Grass Z Bulu, which other bulky waters like Fini and Suicune cannot, while threatening an OHKO back should Bulu decide to click wood hammer. It also has an amazing match up against standard Metagross balance teams and a well positioned Volcanion can punch holes with its dual STABs while exerting enough offensive pressure to prevent its checks from recklessly switching in in order to avoid being chunked by steam eruption/heat wave and getting burned.

god i suck at this kms

 

[GenOne]

Kommo-o 3 -> 4

Its golden age was in the Mega Gengar meta. There's still examples of good Kommo-o teams without Gengar, like aray's sun team in the samples, but it's a lot harder to build around now.

Kommo-o perfectly fits the definition of a tier 4 mon:

"This also includes Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support but are still stronger than Pokemon in the tiers below."

 

[Kenpwnchi]

Latias > 5
With Mega-Gengar gone, this thing doesn’t have to worry about being trapped, and hit with a OHKOing Shadow Ball. It was used a lot in the most recent Smogon Snake Draft, and had an above average win rate. It has speed control in Tailwind, and recovery in Recover and Roost. This allows Latias to consistently help its team take the lead. It works as a great Ground-type counter, avoiding an EQ from Lando-T, and striking back with an Ice Beam. Lastly, it resists Fire, Water, Grass, and Electric type moves, allowing it to wall a lot of top tier threats with its high HP and DEF.

Victini > 2
Same reason as Latias, except it was used even more than Latias. It’s best set, AV, allows it to take a large amount of damage, and, even without AV, it usually can only be 2HKO’d or more. It has a wide range of moves it can access that has various utilizations, such as Glaciate for speed control and U-Turn for pivoting. It’s SPA set allows it to avoid being intimidated by Lando-T and Incineroar, making it an, overall, great Pokémon for Tier 2 in this Mega-Gengar free meta.

Manectric-Mega > 1
I know this was recently raised to Tier 2, but this Pokémon deserves way more recognition than that. It was used on 13 teams out of the 74 teams used in the SSD, and it’s highest usage percentage was 20%. It can counter Tapu Fini, Lando-T, Kartana, Genesect, Tapu Bulu, and Amoonguss (all mons from T1 and T2). It’s only competition for top Electric Pokémon are Tapu Koko and Zapdos, but it’s the fastest. The best part about this Pokemon is it’s access to Intimidate, allowing it to weaken any physical threat posed against its team.

Volcanion > 3
This thing is great at countering Sun and Rain teams with its double typing and powerful STAB moves, but that’s about it. It’s not used as much as other top tier Fire-type Pokémon, like Incineroar, Charizard-Y, and Victini. Most people just use Incineroar and Tapu Fini for their Fire and Water mon, and both have a very useful ability.

Gothitelle > 3
Like Latias and Victini, this thing no long has to worry about getting OHKO’d by a Shadow Ball from Mega-Gengar, and is, thus, viable again. Not only that, but it’s the best trapper now. It has Heal Pulse, allowing it to heal its partner while it keeps enemies trapped in to be attacked. It also has access to Helping Hand, turning its partner into a solid sweeper, and a pretty decent bulk that can be tweaked to make most attacks against it 2HKO’s. Overall, it’s a great support mon.

Genesect > 1
As of right now, this thing deserves to be Tier 1. With Download and access to a different variety of moves, it has no problem OHKOing top mons (like Mega-Metagross, Tapu Fini, and Lando-T). It has decent bulk and speed, and it’s great at pivoting and chipping away the health of its foe(s). Choice Scarf and AV are the usual items, but this Pokémon works well with LO, which turns it into an extremely powerful sweeper.

 

[AuraRayquaza]

Mega-Manectric > 1
This Pokémon is capable of OHKOing top Water-type Pokémon, after Charge (while also gaining a +1 SPD boost), such as Tapu Fini and Milotic (even if they have maxed out and nature boosted SPD), as well as outspeeding and OHKOing Landorus-Therian with Hidden Power Ice. It has access to Magnet Rise, allowing it to become immune to Ground-type attacks, and a counter to Sandstorm teams. It can use Roar, and, thus, stop set-up Pokémon from using their boosted stat(s) or TR. It has speed control with Thunder Wave and SPA control with Snarl. Lastly, it has recovery with Rest. (I almost forgot: Mega-Manectric can outspeed Charizard-Y, and OHKO it with Thunderbolt.)

Zapdos > 1
This Pokémon is, like Mega-Manectric, capable of countering top Water-type Pokémon, such as Tapu Fini and Milotic (again, even while having maxed out and nature boosted SPD), with an Electrium Z Thunderbolt Gigavolt Havoc, and outspeeding and OHKOing Landorus-Therian with Hidden Power Ice. It can 2HKO Mega-Metagross, Amoonguss, Tapu Bulu, and others with Heat Wave. It has speed control in Thunder Wave and Tailwind, helping its team take the lead, and recovery in Roost. With Flynium Z Tailwind, it can boost its critical hit ratio, pick opponents off with a critical hitting Thunderbolt, and then heal itself when its health gets low. (Also, what I said in the last parentheses in the first Pokémon nomination [except speed tieing Charizard-Y].)

Hi, I think a couple of things need addressing here (things that have been said a large number of times already). I won't go too much into the nominations themselves, but more the reasoning you provide, which I believe to be poor.

The issue comes from the fact that all you've done in your post is state moves that each pokemon can learn, and have made no attempt to really explain why these traits make said pokemon worthy of an increase in ranking. It is not enough to say 'Manectric learns electric type moves and is therefore capable of OHKOing water type pokemon'; anyone can go to the smogdex and check its movepool/typing to learn what you've said in your post. You need to convince people that the meta makes your nominations justified, especially for tier 1 nominations (which is a very hard task given Gengar was banned just this Monday). Currently, you have said nothing that makes me, and most others, think 'Manectric and Zapdos are both tier 1 worthy'.

You have also completely failed to consider the relevant sets for both pokemon you want to nominate, which only serves to harm your case heavily. Manectric barely has room for thunderbolt to begin with, let alone frankly terrible options in charge, rest, magnet rise and thunder wave. You have made no mention of its fire type coverage, which is almost necessary in helping to deal with the Kartanas that have become so bulky that hp ice doesn't do the job anymore. And have also forgotten about Volt Switch, the absolute staple on all Manectrics.
Similarly with Zapdos, you have mentioned poor sets in Z-Tailwind, but have not even considered seed sets, which are very good options.

Something better for Manectric (a nom I could definitely see happening in the future) might be:
'With the combination of super fast volt switches, intimidate and snarl Manectric can effectively control the damage output of opposing teams and be an excellent pivot in the current meta. It typically has great matchups vs. Metagross teams, being able to easily cycle intimidates and also pressure fini/zap with snarl + volt switch. Its one of the better kartana answers in a tier with not many, being able to come in on most non z-move hits and force defensive plays with its fire type coverage. Functions extremely well with the currently common IFK (Incin fini kart) core, giving fini many cm opportunities and forming a powerful intimidate cycling core with incin.'

 

[Kenpwnchi]

Updated.

 

[fespy]

With Gengarite banned time to make some noms.
Gothitelle 4->3
Going to keep this simple, but Mega Gengar is gone the main thing that contested its trap. STAG SOGOOD

Supporting this nom, and adding that already-scary mons like Incineroar, Tapu Fini, Kyube, MMetagross, and Zygarde become a lot scarier when you add the ability to trap and heal pulse. Goth imo is one of the few TR setters that can still function well outside of trick room (trapping, slow heal pulses, helping hand, and the occasional but existent Psychic KO on Amoonguss before it can get a spore off), making it a strong option for mixed TR teams. It pairs especially great with Incineroar, which can help Goth wall physical attackers, provide fake out support for setting TR, and can pivot out into a setup mon like Fini or Zyg when the time is right (and heal pulse + calm mind / dragon dance your way to victory). It also gets access to ally switch, foul play, gravity, and toxic, which could be neat techs in BO1s, but I think the best set is by far Stab/TR/Protect/ Heal Pulse or Helping Hand.

A common argument against goth is how volt-turn is everywhere in the current meta, making shadow tag less useful. However, as we've seen with MGar, it can definitely be useful in the current meta. Yes, MGar has an offensive presence that Goth does not, but neither can OHKO the most common pivot mons (Mega Mane, Lando, Incin, Genesect, and Koko if you don't want to risk the speed tie) anyways. Under TR, many of these pivots become glass cannons, and can easily be KO'd by Goth's partner before they get a chance to fire off a u-turn or volt switch.

And yeah, as Atmosphere said, MGar being banned definitely improves Goth's spot in the meta.

 

[Jrenner]

Gastrodon 5->4 after gastro was nomed to 5 I decided to try it out. I tried a few sets, and I'm very impressed with the results. Its great bulk combine with only 1 weakness, tons of useful resistances, and 2 great immunities, it can take on a lot of big threats, such as zapdos, koko, magnetic, incinaroar, metagross (I'm using ground z and it can OHKO metagross), incinaroar, and lando. Also has a pretty easy time switching in, and It has access to great moves, such as muddy water, ice beam, earth power, clear smog, recover, and sometimes toxic. Only problem really is bulu/kartanas popularity, and it's somewhat underwhelming attack stats. But all in all pretty good mon, and I think it's good enough for tier 4.

 

[Platinum God n1n1]

Genesect to Tier 1 - its so good
it dominates a large portion of the metagame and its quite powerful due to it ability "Download", also offers great team support because of its deep move pool it can cover what ever your team needs and of course the U-turn is great to help your team get best positions. It can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using this pokemon


Keldo --> Tier 5
It's fabulous! the great match up versus Incinroar is its best trait, a powerful fighting mon that doesnt weaken due to intimidate.
Icy Wind offer great support, it can be difficult for top tier mons to switch into

 

[talkingtree]

The next shift will be posted soon, but for now enjoy this AMAZING new art by AmirAlexander!

 

[talkingtree]

Volcanion 2 -> 3

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AuraRayquaza: Abstain. Its a good check to incineroar and fini for sure but sr being a thing really sucks for it. It can really find it hard at times to get a good hit off because its pressured so hard by rocks and just general pivoting, as a result idt any set other than berry is that good atm. It is a good set though.

Demantoid: No. I think it could have fallen before Gengar ban but it should do better in this meta.

MajorBowman: No, Volcanion is still one of the best fire and water types in the tier and has great stats and coverage. It can run a pretty wide variety of sets effectively and I haven’t really seen anything that leads me to believe it should drop.

SMB: No, it has a great typing and coverage moves to hit for super effective damage most of the tier 1 and tier 2 mons, while also being really bulky and being able to run a wide variety of sets to cover its flaws (such as mago berry for its sr weakness or shuca/wacan berry to beat ground or electric types respectively). I don’t think anything has changed to drop this.

Talkingtree: No, I think Volcanion’s in a really good spot right now tbh. Solid matchup against IFK, strong attacks especially with speed control, decent flexibility in sets, and good enough bulk to make up for its lacking Speed.

Nihilego UR -> 5

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AuraRayquaza: same as tree.

Demantoid: no, don’t see a reason for this besides theorymon

MajorBowman: No, has seen 0 tournament use so far and any potential reason to rank it is purely theoretical right now

SMB: I guess it could have some potential but i'm going to abstain on this one since it has 0 usages outside of ladder

Talkingtree: abstain, haven’t seen this used at all yet

Gothitelle 4 -> 3

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AuraRayquaza: no it still has the same problems as before gar was banned, like being quite the dead slot and needing heavy pressure from its partner to do anything. Idt this has been any good since lax was banned and gar being banned hasnt helped it enough to make it 3 imo

Demantoid: no for now. Goth needs to find new partners that it can support before it starts becoming dominant again.

MajorBowman: Also going to say no for now. I definitely agree that Gengar leaving means that Gothitelle should theoretically get better since it now has an exclusive niche and one of its biggest checks is gone, but I’d rather see it in action again before we raise it.

SMB: No, with mega gengar banned it has lost a check and now it is the only viable shadow tag mon but apart from that it still has the same problems it had when it dropped from tier 3 a few weeks ago

Talkingtree: Yes. I normally stray away from theorymonning too much, but anyone can see that the Mega Gengar ban was unmistakably positive for Gothitelle as it lost a check and the only other mon that could fulfill a similar niche.

Kommo-o 3 -> 4

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AuraRayquaza: yeah i think 4 is about right for it. Still works really well on zard teams, that have the right amount of offensive pressure at all times on any finis to give it chances to set up, but its not been amazing since dpl, even when gar was around.

Demantoid: Yes. Fairies are much safer with Gengar gone.

MajorBowman: This should have happened a while ago, Kommo-o has never been very good imo. It was a classic example of a mediocre Pokemon that was enabled by something else’s existence (in this case Gengar). It absolutely should drop, probably even to 5 eventually.

SMB: Yes, mega gengar was one of the reasons why kommo-o was so high on the vr, not being able to trap and remove tapus for a safer sweep hurts its viability.

Talkingtree: Yes 4, though this might be 5 tbh. Kommo-o is a lot harder to make work with no Gengar and things like AV Victini surging in popularity, so it’s really niche and requires a lot more support now if you’re going to build a team around it. Kommo-o can still be threatening under the right circumstances, but those are much fewer and further between.

Latias UR -> 5

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AuraRayquaza: yeah snake usage makes me want to try this.

Demantoid: Yes. Its speed is very good especially now that Gengar is gone. Has several good support options and good bulk.

MajorBowman: Yes, has a lot of flexible options that impressed me during Snake

SMB: No, although it got some wins on snake I think it's too passive and with a lot of negative match ups vs popular mons (see metagross, incineroar, fini, kyurem, genesect). I think it is usable but doesn't deserve to be ranked.

Talkingtree: Yeah, was pleasantly surprised by how good this was in testing for Snake. It deserves a rank and Mega probably does too.

Victini 3 -> 2

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AuraRayquaza: yes really good fire, as proved in snake, with nice enough coverage, great bulk and speed and incinerate which is huge with everything running a berry now.

Demantoid: No. Not having any way to sustain itself and competition for the fire slot should keep it down.

MajorBowman: ehhhh this is tough. I think the AV set has given it a great role that works on a lot of teams, but it still has some pretty big issues. I think it should stay 3 for now, but I’m not opposed to 2 in the future if it makes a big impact

SMB: No, the lack of recovery and being sr weak it's a huge downside on something that acts as a pivot and has to switch in multiple times during the game, it's probably a top tier 3 mon but i don't think it deserves tier 2. There are also 2 better fire types that you should consider before using this and one of them is the best mon on the tier, opportunity cost.

Talkingtree: No, I think this is a bit premature. It definitely deserves its spot in 3 and is probably towards the top there, but losing so hard to Incineroar and Stealth Rock makes me think twice about pushing it higher.

Mega Manectric 2 -> 1

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AuraRayquaza: while mane sounds like the best mega to me rn, and definitely better than mgross, idk if its really t1 material or if mgross should drop. I could definitely see this happening in the future tho a couple of months into this meta

Demantoid: No. I don’t feel comfortable voting something to 1 so soon after a huge meta change.

MajorBowman: No, I don’t think Manectric will ever be worthy of tier 1. It’s good at what it does, but it won’t ever be winning games. It also comes with the big opportunity cost of not using a mega that actually does damage, and Gengar being gone means it lost a pretty important niche in “faster than Gengar with Snarl.” It competes with Zeraora as a fast Snarl pivot and I just think there are better megas out there.

SMB: No, this will never be as dominant as the rest of the tier 1 mons. It provides nice support with intimidate + snarl and it's a good pivot but that's it, it doesn't do enough damage and gets chipped easily which are some big flaws.

Talkingtree: No, Manectric isn’t there, at least not yet. Trying to figure out what the meta will be like and voting based on complex predicted shifts isn’t worthwhile, so I’ll just say for right now, Mega Manectric doesn’t hit the I-have-a-case-as-the-best-mon-in-the-tier level viability that I like to see in Tier 1s.

Lower Tier Sweep

Shifts:
Kommo-o 3 -> 4
Latias UR -> 5
Araquanid 4 -> 5
Azumarill 5 -> UR
Bronzong 5 -> 4
Volcarona 5 -> 4

Note: We didn't vote on Gastrodon 5 -> 4 since it was originally nominated to 4 and only rose to 5 based on the last vote. n1n1's nominations will be handled in the next slate, they came after the votes were already sent out.

 

[GenOne]

Mega Charizard Y 3 -> 2
Zard Y is in a pretty good position right now. People finally stopped using it like a wannabe Zapdos and generally run Heat Wave / Overheat / Solar Beam now, which makes it incredibly hard to switch into. Zard Y's base 100 speed, combined with the raw power of a sun-boosted Overheat, allows it to drop many of its would-be counters like Landorus-T before they get the chance to attack. In the past Tier 3 was a perfect spot for Zard because it needs some support dealing with Stealth Rock. In practice though, Defog / Rapid spin is incredibly easy to fit onto a Zard Y build; Fini, Koko and Lando (among other viablemons) all learn Defog, while Hitmontop has found a niche on Zard builds as an Intimidate/Fake Out disrupter that also happens to be able to remove rocks.

Hitmontop UR -> 5
It's a worse Scrafty but it learns Rapid Spin which gives it a niche. It also has a better speed tier and some practical support moves like Rapid Spin and feint. It's seen a bit of high level use so this isn't just theorymoning.

Mega Abomasnow UR -> 5
I wouldn't ever place this above 5, but how is this not ranked? It's a worse Camerupt as far as TR sweepers go, but it has better synergy with good mons Diancie, Tapu Fini, and Incineroar which are: a) great teammates on a TR team, and b) great partners to deal with Mega Abomasnow's fire-type weakness. Also, STAB Ice Shards make it not completely deadweight outside of TR.

Heatran 5 -> UR
Hot garbage.

 

[Big_Danny_Mason]

Mega Abomasnow UR -> 5
I wouldn't ever place this above 5, but how is this not ranked? It's a worse Camerupt as far as TR sweepers go, but it has better synergy with good mons Diancie, Tapu Fini, and Incineroar which are: a) great teammates on a TR team, and b) great partners to deal with Mega Abomasnow's fire-type weakness. Also, STAB Ice Shards make it not completely deadweight outside of TR.

I played around with a team based around m-abomasnow, calm mind fini, and aurora veil transform mew and just want to agree that mega abomasnow is very solid and worth building a team around. The better synergy with incineroar in particular is quite clutch. As said above it gives you a lot of different options for team building than standard bulu, camerupt, and hypnosis bronzong, and TR in general should only be better with mega gengar gone.

 

[talkingtree]

Mega Latias UR -> 5
I touched on this briefly in my vote on regular Latias, but CM Mega Latias has shown to be a threat you can't ignore with multiple successful Snake teams featuring the set. Add some Incineroar, Mega Metagross, and Tyranitar answers and you've got a strong wincon that's naturally both bulky and strong. It can be a bit of a momentum suck if it's forced to keep healing up in order to stay alive, but proper positioning, speed control, and support make this into a viable threat.

 

[PikachuVincent]

Tsareena DUU- tier 3/2 of DOU
This girl is amazing, even in OU. Queenly majesty makes incin cry to set up mons.
Incineroar? HJK and outspeed, unless it does use Flare blitz on first turn. but since IT IS doubles, keeping it out on first turn is good since queenly majesty blocks it and hjk it while another pokemon sets up/ kill the incin
Tapu fini? Power whip/Trop kick. unless it uses Ice beam, but it doesn't matter since AV sets are the most common.
MetaGross? Mostly Negative. Can't say anything here.
Lando T? Unless Flyium Z. It's neutral.
Kartana? could kill her but she's still alive to get a hjk in.
M Menetric? Mostly negative. Oveheat and outspeeding it would be fatal.
the rest of the tapus usually neutral.
I would use her as a Incin support since queenly is almost better than Lele in priority. And since she's usually just either support/ all out assault vest attacker, her partner(s) should be able to have coverage for all her weaknesses.