Resource USUM Doubles OU Viability Rankings (Updated 10/22 on post #255)

Lord Death Man

i cant read
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Have any battles showing ninetails? Just havnt seen it at all and I’m a bit curious
It's a little late, but I have one recent one and, if you search through Winter seasonal you can get some other replays of me using it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-988820839

I've been on the fence about nomming Ninetales-A myself for months; it's a super cheesy playstyle that may as well auto-lose to several fairly common team compositions but it can also be extraordinarily annoying to face in the right situations. Just offhand, it pretty much loses to essentially every common mega, gothitelle, and incineroar, and non-scarf sets struggle with literally everything faster than it. Scarf has a serious lack of moveslot spaces to take advantage of what it can do, Light Clay is extremely vulnerable at all times, and Sash often has trouble dying when it would like to to get something more widely useful in to use the limited AV turns. After all of that, it doesn't really enable setup that much better than Manectric-Mega with Snarl.

If it's ranked, no higher than 5.

Bulu to tier 3

Bulu really struggles to find traction in a lot of games. It's somewhat reliant on its terrain to be effective, it's scared out by too many things for a mon that just wants to be spamming a type that has lots of common resists, and its effectiveness frequently gets nerfed by the omnipresence of Incineroar. It's certainly not a bad mon, and it has games where it pops off like other tier 3 mons, but it falls flat often enough in a pretty large variety of ways that set it below more consistent behemoths like Charizard-Y, Kyurem-B, or Kartana.
I strongly support this, I can't think of situations where I've felt Bulu was particularly useful outside of trick room (ignore the replay I just posted) and I also don't think it's the best mon on any given trick room team. I agree with Stratos' proposition to drop it to 4; I think of it similarly to Aegislash or Gastrodon in usefulness rather than Diancie or Zapdos.
 

talkingtree

Workin' out, sleepin' in, takin' vitamins
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Doubles Captain
VR update time! Reasonings are in chronological order, so that's why some people appear earlier in some votes than others.

Mega Diancie Tier 5 → Tier 4
emforbes: No, regular diancie is almost always better. I haven’t seen any new meta changes that warrant mega diancie to move to tier 4.

Demantoid: 5. Nothing has really changed to improve Mega Diancie’s standing in the meta.

talkingtree: 5, I honestly forget Mega Diancie exists most of the time. TIN has proven this *can* work, otherwise I might consider this going to UR.

Croven: 5. Haven’t really seen anything making me believe its worth more.

SMB: 5, the best mega diancie team I’ve seen lately also has shuckle and blissey on it so that says a lot about its current state.

MajorBowman: 5, it’s a mon that I know can work and one that I personally enjoy using, but there’s really nothing that might set it apart from other megas other than a pretty positive charizard matchup
Mega Charizard Y Tier 2 → Tier 1
emforbes: No, Zard Y is absolutely phenomenal but it doesn’t fit on teams with as much ease as the other tier 1 pokemon, and higher diancie + goth usage isn’t necessarily putting this mon into tier 1.

Demantoid: 1. Has very high offensive pressure and can support itself with Tailwind.

Croven: 2. Im a huge fan of zard but i think emi hit it on the head here, it’s just not as versatile as the other tier 1 mons and recent trends havent quite been kind to it

talkingtree: 2 for similar reasons as to why the Kart to 1 nom didn't go through. Great Pokemon, incredibly powerful, always does something in the game, but a slightly too large exploitable weakness.

SMB: 2, big threat to many teams but requires a lot of support to work properly (speed control, defog…)

MajorBowman: 2, echoing everyone else in saying that it’s a super powerful mon and definitely a top 3 mega but its weaknesses are a bit too glaring and there are a few too many mons that straight up beat it for it to be tier 1
Diancie Tier 3 → Tier 2
emforbes: Abstain, not really sure what to think about this because while I do feel like this pokemon is broken, I don’t see it as a very splashable pokemon for teams. It can be super potent but I feel like many diancie teams just have it slapped on which can lead to lacking defensive options due to the rock typing.

Demantoid: 3. I think Diancie is very good but not quite splashable enough to be placed in 2.

Croven: 2. I think while it isn't as splashable as the other tier 2 mons, the sheer pressure and sway it has over every game its in mandates it be in tier 2. It’s seriously ridiculously good and hard to play against, which i think slightly pushes it into 2 despite its lack of splashability (if thats a word lol)

talkingtree: 2. It's interesting to see this turn into a splashable-ness question (used a different term than Croven bc he's bad). Regardless of that debate, this mon is powerful enough and provides enough to a team in speed control and drawing away foe's attention to be tier 2 imo. Diancie has benefitted from the fall of bulky steels and the rise of zard; if either of those trends reverse course I think this could fall back down fairly easily.

SMB: 2, we all know what diancie does and i think it can be more splashable than what people think since it doesn’t really need too much support to set up trick room on late game and start cleaning with diamond storm. Almost any item is good on this thing so it can also be kind of “unpredictable” even if it always does the same. Weakness policy is great for ladder and pinch berry, stone plate or z diamond storm are good for tour games.

MajorBowman: There’s no questioning that Diancie is very good, but I question its ability to fit on a wider variety of teams. If it’s not on fullroom, it’s almost always on semiroom, which basically necessitates teammates that can take advantage of trick room. This generally leads to Diancie finding itself on the same types (with some exceptions of course). I’m not sure if this is an issue with Diancie though, or just a general tendency people tend to fall into when they build with it. I think I agree with SMB that it can fit on more teams than have been explored so far, so I’ll go with 2.
Mega Scizor Tier 3 → Tier 4
emforbes: Yes, Mega Scizor has a hard time getting going against a lot of types of teams right now. Rain, fullroom, zard offense, and more standard fini incin builds don’t have too much trouble dealing with the SD set. While bullet punch is great for diancie, I don’t think that’s enough to let it stay in Tier 3.

Demantoid: 4. Scizor requires a lot of support and still struggles with match up issues.

Croven: 4. Others said it best, too much support needed and struggles against a lot

talkingtree: 3, I haven't found that it needs nearly as much support as the above are claiming. SD Superpower is probably the best set right now to make Incin far less of an issue. Scizor definitely appreciates a Goth to Heal Pulse / Trick Room beside it and needs help against Zard, but I've found it does work in most games without first having to get other conditions in place.

SMB: 3, I don’t understand this nom, I don’t remember the last time I used bug bite scizor because, as tree said, superpower scizor is just so much better and can deal with many of its checks: OHKOs incineroar at +1 and deals around 70% min dmg to volcanion at +2. I also disagree it is bad vs trick room teams since it can set up on almost any mon on these builds and most of them only have 1 way to deal with it (camerupt).

MajorBowman: Tough one, Scizor has definitely dropped in usage (probably thanks to Zard being everywhere now), but I’m not sure that’s a reflection of Scizor or just a meta trend. Scizor is pretty strong against a significant chunk of the good mons and its bad matchups certainly aren’t impossible to cover, I think 3 is a fine place for it.
Zapdos Tier 3 → Tier 2
emforbes: No, zap definitely hasn’t gotten any better since the last nom, literally 0 meta trends that support it going back to tier 2.

Demantoid: 3. Lacks the bulk to be as reliable as it was at the beginning of the gen.

Croven: 3 lol, nothing i can think of in recent meta trends has been good for it, not as good as it used to be

talkingtree: 3, see above

SMB: 3, see above

MajorBowman: ^
Landorus-I Tier 5 → UR
emforbes: Abstain, the scarf set is cool but I don’t know if this mon is genuinely a good pick in the meta at the moment.

Demantoid: UR. I could see it being okay but it’s usage is pretty much zero.

Croven: 5, slightly. Played a lot of games w it and scarf is actually quite threatening if played decently. Strong fast ground coverage is fantastic in current meta, and can be paired offensively with a lot.

talkingtree: 5, Croven said everything I'm thinking

SMB: 5, it hasn’t had a lot of usage lately but scarf lando-i is still pretty decent

MajorBowman: UR, I see the niche as a scarf mon and I think it does an ok job, but a lot of times I don’t know that the increase in power is worth losing the utility of lando-t. Other sets are just meh
Ninetales-A UR → Tier 5’
emforbes: No, veil hasn’t been in a good spot since I started playing dou when matame was free :I

Demantoid: UR. It is very mediocre at doing its job, whether it’s the scarf or support set.

Croven: abstain

talkingtree: UR. This is one of those mons that I can understand using it as it has a niche, but it's just not viable enough to be on the list.

SMB: tree nailed it, it’s just one of these mons

MajorBowman: UR, this mon hasn’t been relevant for a while and I’d argue it was never really good to begin with
Nihilego UR → Tier 4
emforbes: Yes, nihi is seriously a threat that has great coverage against a lot of top tier mons, and can set rocks/tspikes. Acid spray is also great with zard.

Demantoid: 5 for now. It has great offensive pressure but an awkward speed tier and typing.

Croven: 4. This thing is ridiculous in how well it pressures offensively, played a lot of games with it and it was putting in so much work each time. Great stab coverage and solid speed, beast boost can start a snowball effect really quickly too. Hazards are also epic

talkingtree: 4, Nihi's SpDef is surprisingly decent to complement the coverage / speed / power. Haven't tried Acid Spray like emforbes mentioned but I will now o.o

SMB: abstain

MajorBowman: 4 seems pretty aggressive, I do think Nihilego is worth ranking and I’ve seen a few people use it pretty well recently, but I’d go 5 for now.
Politoed + Pelipper Tier 4’ → Tier 3 (NOTE: I lumped these together because they’re nominated for almost the same reason, but rankers could still vote for one of these shifts and against the other)
Demantoid: 3 for Politoed and 4’ for Pelipper. I’ve found Politoed to be the more splashable rain setter while Pelipper is mostly used with Swampert.

Croven: 3 politoed, 4’ pelipper. Agree with demantoid on this, poli is more splashable and can be used on a lot of teams to create a rain core, while peli is only really used in full HO / with pert from what I’ve seen.

talkingtree: Agreeing with the above (3 poli, 4' peli), since Pelipper is more "restricted" like the above said, it fits better in the description of 4'.

SMB: huh I’m fine with a rise because rain is pretty strong right now, although I think pelipper is a better mon that politoed so I’d rise both even if pelipper is only used on swampert teams.

emforbes: Agreed with the reasoning above for 3 poli and 4’ peli.

MajorBowman: Definitely agree with Politoed to 3, think Pelipper in 3 would probably make sense too. Peli has a lot of good options that Politoed doesn’t (Tailwind, Uturn, Hurricane to dunk on kart/other grasses that can give rain issues).
Kommo-o Tier 4 → Tier 3
Demantoid: 3. Kommo-o is easier to support than most things in tier 4, but can still have huge impacts.

Croven: 3. This thing can be such a threat against a ton of teams and requires a lot less to support than it used to think. Move it up

talkingtree: 3 but I still hate Nails for making Tapu-less Kommo-o work.

SMB: 3 is the spot it has always deserved

Emforbes: 3 like everyone else said, stupid good mon.

MajorBowman: i hate this stupid pokemon
Tapu Bulu Tier 2 → Tier 3 → Tier 4
Demantoid: 3. I think the Scarf set is currently the best outside of TR teams because of how strong it is. Its role on fullroom teams also keeps it out of 4 for me.

Croven: 3 for now, but i’m on the border between 3 and 4. Just kinda not good but not quite bad enough for me to put in 4.

talkingtree: 3, I think 4 would be an overreaction to its current ranking being too high. Nails put this well.

SMB: This is tier 3.5 for me, I’m going to say 3 but it only seems to fit on semiroom or trick room teams rn which is kinda discouraging.

emforbes: 2, I really don’t agree with the notion that bulu has a hard time finding traction just because it’s played differently than the other tapus. I guess kommo-o seeing even more usage doesn’t support 2, but it’s also an amazing kommo-o partner.

MajorBowman: 2 for sure, y'all wild. Bulu is such a cornerstone on certain teams and I think people vastly underestimate how much of a threat it can be. Having such a strong matchup against all the other tapus, rain, landorus, zygarde, and others makes it a super useful mon in a lot of games. Frankly I’ve never understood the Bulu hate and that hasn’t changed. I’m one of the few day 1 bulu stans and you will NOT bully my son like this
Mega Tyranitar Tier 3 → Tier 4
Demantoid: 4. Dragon Dance sets are kind of underwhelming even after they've set up, and I don’t think the other sets justify the mega slot.

Croven: 4 for now. I can see non-dd sets (dd is bad) pushing this up but it just hasn't had the usage for me to seriously get on board with it staying in 3. Move it down

talkingtree: Yes, 4's about right at this point. I don't have much more to add tbh

SMB: tier 4. Ice beam, fire blast, stone edge or dropping one of these coverage moves for sr is its best set rn and that doesn’t seem enough for tier 3.

emforbes: 4, others put it best.

MajorBowman: Yeah I think 4 is fine, I was on a megatar kick for a while but now that it’s passed I think 3 is a bit ambitious for this mon. Still a solid pick on a good number of teams but it’s not as strong as I think I once made it out to be
Low-Tier Sweep
Note: I allowed people to vote 3 on this sweep since it had been so long; that's why Volcarona has votes for Tier 3.

Rises:
Diancie Tier 3 --> Tier 2
Nihilego UR --> Tier 4
Politoed Tier 4' --> Tier 3
Kommo-o Tier 4 --> Tier 3
Ludicolo Tier 5' --> Tier 4'
Scrafty Tier 5 --> Tier 4
Suicune Tier 5 --> Tier 4
Volcarona Tier 4 --> Tier 3

Drops:
Tapu Bulu Tier 2 --> Tier 3
Mega Tyranitar Tier 3 --> Tier 4
Araquanid Tier 4 --> Tier 5
Cresselia Tier 4 --> Tier 5
Deoxys-A Tier 4' --> Tier 5'
Hoopa-U Tier 5' --> UR
Tornadus Tier 5 --> UR
 
VR update time! Reasonings are in chronological order, so that's why some people appear earlier in some votes than others.

Mega Diancie Tier 5 → Tier 4
emforbes: No, regular diancie is almost always better. I haven’t seen any new meta changes that warrant mega diancie to move to tier 4.

Demantoid: 5. Nothing has really changed to improve Mega Diancie’s standing in the meta.

talkingtree: 5, I honestly forget Mega Diancie exists most of the time. TIN has proven this *can* work, otherwise I might consider this going to UR.

Croven: 5. Haven’t really seen anything making me believe its worth more.

SMB: 5, the best mega diancie team I’ve seen lately also has shuckle and blissey on it so that says a lot about its current state.

MajorBowman: 5, it’s a mon that I know can work and one that I personally enjoy using, but there’s really nothing that might set it apart from other megas other than a pretty positive charizard matchup
Mega Charizard Y Tier 2 → Tier 1
emforbes: No, Zard Y is absolutely phenomenal but it doesn’t fit on teams with as much ease as the other tier 1 pokemon, and higher diancie + goth usage isn’t necessarily putting this mon into tier 1.

Demantoid: 1. Has very high offensive pressure and can support itself with Tailwind.

Croven: 2. Im a huge fan of zard but i think emi hit it on the head here, it’s just not as versatile as the other tier 1 mons and recent trends havent quite been kind to it

talkingtree: 2 for similar reasons as to why the Kart to 1 nom didn't go through. Great Pokemon, incredibly powerful, always does something in the game, but a slightly too large exploitable weakness.

SMB: 2, big threat to many teams but requires a lot of support to work properly (speed control, defog…)

MajorBowman: 2, echoing everyone else in saying that it’s a super powerful mon and definitely a top 3 mega but its weaknesses are a bit too glaring and there are a few too many mons that straight up beat it for it to be tier 1
Diancie Tier 3 → Tier 2
emforbes: Abstain, not really sure what to think about this because while I do feel like this pokemon is broken, I don’t see it as a very splashable pokemon for teams. It can be super potent but I feel like many diancie teams just have it slapped on which can lead to lacking defensive options due to the rock typing.

Demantoid: 3. I think Diancie is very good but not quite splashable enough to be placed in 2.

Croven: 2. I think while it isn't as splashable as the other tier 2 mons, the sheer pressure and sway it has over every game its in mandates it be in tier 2. It’s seriously ridiculously good and hard to play against, which i think slightly pushes it into 2 despite its lack of splashability (if thats a word lol)

talkingtree: 2. It's interesting to see this turn into a splashable-ness question (used a different term than Croven bc he's bad). Regardless of that debate, this mon is powerful enough and provides enough to a team in speed control and drawing away foe's attention to be tier 2 imo. Diancie has benefitted from the fall of bulky steels and the rise of zard; if either of those trends reverse course I think this could fall back down fairly easily.

SMB: 2, we all know what diancie does and i think it can be more splashable than what people think since it doesn’t really need too much support to set up trick room on late game and start cleaning with diamond storm. Almost any item is good on this thing so it can also be kind of “unpredictable” even if it always does the same. Weakness policy is great for ladder and pinch berry, stone plate or z diamond storm are good for tour games.

MajorBowman: There’s no questioning that Diancie is very good, but I question its ability to fit on a wider variety of teams. If it’s not on fullroom, it’s almost always on semiroom, which basically necessitates teammates that can take advantage of trick room. This generally leads to Diancie finding itself on the same types (with some exceptions of course). I’m not sure if this is an issue with Diancie though, or just a general tendency people tend to fall into when they build with it. I think I agree with SMB that it can fit on more teams than have been explored so far, so I’ll go with 2.
Mega Scizor Tier 3 → Tier 4
emforbes: Yes, Mega Scizor has a hard time getting going against a lot of types of teams right now. Rain, fullroom, zard offense, and more standard fini incin builds don’t have too much trouble dealing with the SD set. While bullet punch is great for diancie, I don’t think that’s enough to let it stay in Tier 3.

Demantoid: 4. Scizor requires a lot of support and still struggles with match up issues.

Croven: 4. Others said it best, too much support needed and struggles against a lot

talkingtree: 3, I haven't found that it needs nearly as much support as the above are claiming. SD Superpower is probably the best set right now to make Incin far less of an issue. Scizor definitely appreciates a Goth to Heal Pulse / Trick Room beside it and needs help against Zard, but I've found it does work in most games without first having to get other conditions in place.

SMB: 3, I don’t understand this nom, I don’t remember the last time I used bug bite scizor because, as tree said, superpower scizor is just so much better and can deal with many of its checks: OHKOs incineroar at +1 and deals around 70% min dmg to volcanion at +2. I also disagree it is bad vs trick room teams since it can set up on almost any mon on these builds and most of them only have 1 way to deal with it (camerupt).

MajorBowman: Tough one, Scizor has definitely dropped in usage (probably thanks to Zard being everywhere now), but I’m not sure that’s a reflection of Scizor or just a meta trend. Scizor is pretty strong against a significant chunk of the good mons and its bad matchups certainly aren’t impossible to cover, I think 3 is a fine place for it.
Zapdos Tier 3 → Tier 2
emforbes: No, zap definitely hasn’t gotten any better since the last nom, literally 0 meta trends that support it going back to tier 2.

Demantoid: 3. Lacks the bulk to be as reliable as it was at the beginning of the gen.

Croven: 3 lol, nothing i can think of in recent meta trends has been good for it, not as good as it used to be

talkingtree: 3, see above

SMB: 3, see above

MajorBowman: ^
Landorus-I Tier 5 → UR
emforbes: Abstain, the scarf set is cool but I don’t know if this mon is genuinely a good pick in the meta at the moment.

Demantoid: UR. I could see it being okay but it’s usage is pretty much zero.

Croven: 5, slightly. Played a lot of games w it and scarf is actually quite threatening if played decently. Strong fast ground coverage is fantastic in current meta, and can be paired offensively with a lot.

talkingtree: 5, Croven said everything I'm thinking

SMB: 5, it hasn’t had a lot of usage lately but scarf lando-i is still pretty decent

MajorBowman: UR, I see the niche as a scarf mon and I think it does an ok job, but a lot of times I don’t know that the increase in power is worth losing the utility of lando-t. Other sets are just meh
Ninetales-A UR → Tier 5’
emforbes: No, veil hasn’t been in a good spot since I started playing dou when matame was free :I

Demantoid: UR. It is very mediocre at doing its job, whether it’s the scarf or support set.

Croven: abstain

talkingtree: UR. This is one of those mons that I can understand using it as it has a niche, but it's just not viable enough to be on the list.

SMB: tree nailed it, it’s just one of these mons

MajorBowman: UR, this mon hasn’t been relevant for a while and I’d argue it was never really good to begin with
Nihilego UR → Tier 4
emforbes: Yes, nihi is seriously a threat that has great coverage against a lot of top tier mons, and can set rocks/tspikes. Acid spray is also great with zard.

Demantoid: 5 for now. It has great offensive pressure but an awkward speed tier and typing.

Croven: 4. This thing is ridiculous in how well it pressures offensively, played a lot of games with it and it was putting in so much work each time. Great stab coverage and solid speed, beast boost can start a snowball effect really quickly too. Hazards are also epic

talkingtree: 4, Nihi's SpDef is surprisingly decent to complement the coverage / speed / power. Haven't tried Acid Spray like emforbes mentioned but I will now o.o

SMB: abstain

MajorBowman: 4 seems pretty aggressive, I do think Nihilego is worth ranking and I’ve seen a few people use it pretty well recently, but I’d go 5 for now.
Politoed + Pelipper Tier 4’ → Tier 3 (NOTE: I lumped these together because they’re nominated for almost the same reason, but rankers could still vote for one of these shifts and against the other)
Demantoid: 3 for Politoed and 4’ for Pelipper. I’ve found Politoed to be the more splashable rain setter while Pelipper is mostly used with Swampert.

Croven: 3 politoed, 4’ pelipper. Agree with demantoid on this, poli is more splashable and can be used on a lot of teams to create a rain core, while peli is only really used in full HO / with pert from what I’ve seen.

talkingtree: Agreeing with the above (3 poli, 4' peli), since Pelipper is more "restricted" like the above said, it fits better in the description of 4'.

SMB: huh I’m fine with a rise because rain is pretty strong right now, although I think pelipper is a better mon that politoed so I’d rise both even if pelipper is only used on swampert teams.

emforbes: Agreed with the reasoning above for 3 poli and 4’ peli.

MajorBowman: Definitely agree with Politoed to 3, think Pelipper in 3 would probably make sense too. Peli has a lot of good options that Politoed doesn’t (Tailwind, Uturn, Hurricane to dunk on kart/other grasses that can give rain issues).
Kommo-o Tier 4 → Tier 3
Demantoid: 3. Kommo-o is easier to support than most things in tier 4, but can still have huge impacts.

Croven: 3. This thing can be such a threat against a ton of teams and requires a lot less to support than it used to think. Move it up

talkingtree: 3 but I still hate Nails for making Tapu-less Kommo-o work.

SMB: 3 is the spot it has always deserved

Emforbes: 3 like everyone else said, stupid good mon.

MajorBowman: i hate this stupid pokemon
Tapu Bulu Tier 2 → Tier 3 → Tier 4
Demantoid: 3. I think the Scarf set is currently the best outside of TR teams because of how strong it is. Its role on fullroom teams also keeps it out of 4 for me.

Croven: 3 for now, but i’m on the border between 3 and 4. Just kinda not good but not quite bad enough for me to put in 4.

talkingtree: 3, I think 4 would be an overreaction to its current ranking being too high. Nails put this well.

SMB: This is tier 3.5 for me, I’m going to say 3 but it only seems to fit on semiroom or trick room teams rn which is kinda discouraging.

emforbes: 2, I really don’t agree with the notion that bulu has a hard time finding traction just because it’s played differently than the other tapus. I guess kommo-o seeing even more usage doesn’t support 2, but it’s also an amazing kommo-o partner.

MajorBowman: 2 for sure, y'all wild. Bulu is such a cornerstone on certain teams and I think people vastly underestimate how much of a threat it can be. Having such a strong matchup against all the other tapus, rain, landorus, zygarde, and others makes it a super useful mon in a lot of games. Frankly I’ve never understood the Bulu hate and that hasn’t changed. I’m one of the few day 1 bulu stans and you will NOT bully my son like this
Mega Tyranitar Tier 3 → Tier 4
Demantoid: 4. Dragon Dance sets are kind of underwhelming even after they've set up, and I don’t think the other sets justify the mega slot.

Croven: 4 for now. I can see non-dd sets (dd is bad) pushing this up but it just hasn't had the usage for me to seriously get on board with it staying in 3. Move it down

talkingtree: Yes, 4's about right at this point. I don't have much more to add tbh

SMB: tier 4. Ice beam, fire blast, stone edge or dropping one of these coverage moves for sr is its best set rn and that doesn’t seem enough for tier 3.

emforbes: 4, others put it best.

MajorBowman: Yeah I think 4 is fine, I was on a megatar kick for a while but now that it’s passed I think 3 is a bit ambitious for this mon. Still a solid pick on a good number of teams but it’s not as strong as I think I once made it out to be
Low-Tier Sweep
Note: I allowed people to vote 3 on this sweep since it had been so long; that's why Volcarona has votes for Tier 3.

Rises:
Diancie Tier 3 --> Tier 2
Nihilego UR --> Tier 4
Politoed Tier 4' --> Tier 3
Kommo-o Tier 4 --> Tier 3
Ludicolo Tier 5' --> Tier 4'
Scrafty Tier 5 --> Tier 4
Suicune Tier 5 --> Tier 4
Volcarona Tier 4 --> Tier 3

Drops:
Tapu Bulu Tier 2 --> Tier 3
Mega Tyranitar Tier 3 --> Tier 4
Araquanid Tier 4 --> Tier 5
Cresselia Tier 4 --> Tier 5
Deoxys-A Tier 4' --> Tier 5'
Hoopa-U Tier 5' --> UR
Tornadus Tier 5 --> UR
I don’t see raichu vote :(
 

talkingtree

Workin' out, sleepin' in, takin' vitamins
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Doubles Captain
I didn't put it on the slate for a couple reasons. First, the initial nom appeared to simply suggest it did Togedemaru's job better, but Togedemaru wasn't ranked for that anyway. Second, the role you had suggested Raichu fill is almost entirely outclassed by Zeraora, which is faster, bulkier, stronger, and has access to Snarl. In short, there are very limited reasons to use Raichu and I knew it wouldn't be ranked anyway.
 
Xurkitree UR->Tier 4

With 252 EVs into Special atack and speed and a timid nature Xurkitree is capable of powering up with tail glow in a free turn, or, more normally do so through Beast Boost. Discharge gives it great damage output and a good paralization chance although it's a double edge sword unless it's partner isn't inmune. Dazzling gleam gives it good coverage altogether, especially against popular ground types such as garchomp or zygarde which would otherwise be a great hinderance. The last move and it's item are designed to counter the current meta and allow it to set up, Hidden power ice 0HKO Landorus-Therian and Mega-Salamence, it's item is adrenaline orb to capitalise on their intimidation. It pairs up nicely with Fightinium Z Tapu Lele who can block and destroy Incineroar. I think this heavy counter to the meta followed by a powerfull sweep makes it deserve a higher ranking albeit, as previously mentioned, it does require some support to survive the setup fase.
 
Xurkitree UR->Tier 4

With 252 EVs into Special atack and speed and a timid nature Xurkitree is capable of powering up with tail glow in a free turn, or, more normally do so through Beast Boost. Discharge gives it great damage output and a good paralization chance although it's a double edge sword unless it's partner isn't inmune. Dazzling gleam gives it good coverage altogether, especially against popular ground types such as garchomp or zygarde which would otherwise be a great hinderance. The last move and it's item are designed to counter the current meta and allow it to set up, Hidden power ice 0HKO Landorus-Therian and Mega-Salamence, it's item is adrenaline orb to capitalise on their intimidation. It pairs up nicely with Fightinium Z Tapu Lele who can block and destroy Incineroar. I think this heavy counter to the meta followed by a powerfull sweep makes it deserve a higher ranking albeit, as previously mentioned, it does require some support to survive the setup fase.
Im not really sure. I havnt seen any usage, although I’ve mostly been screwing around on alts low latter, and it’s really hard to use because it’s at that really awkward base speed that’s too slow to effectively use without tw up, and too fast to effectively use in TR... I’d say at MOST 5, and I’m honestly not even sure about that.
 
Xurkitree UR->Tier 4

With 252 EVs into Special atack and speed and a timid nature Xurkitree is capable of powering up with tail glow in a free turn, or, more normally do so through Beast Boost. Discharge gives it great damage output and a good paralization chance although it's a double edge sword unless it's partner isn't inmune. Dazzling gleam gives it good coverage altogether, especially against popular ground types such as garchomp or zygarde which would otherwise be a great hinderance. The last move and it's item are designed to counter the current meta and allow it to set up, Hidden power ice 0HKO Landorus-Therian and Mega-Salamence, it's item is adrenaline orb to capitalise on their intimidation. It pairs up nicely with Fightinium Z Tapu Lele who can block and destroy Incineroar. I think this heavy counter to the meta followed by a powerfull sweep makes it deserve a higher ranking albeit, as previously mentioned, it does require some support to survive the setup fase.
I don't see any reason to use Xurkitree over other Electric-type available. Tapu Koko is a better powerhouse with its high natural speed and summoning Electric Terrain for more immediate firepower to itself and partners that carry Electric coverage like Kyurem Black while providing sleep immunity. Zapdos provides speed control in Tailwind, with Mega Manectric and Zeraora give its partners some momentum to work around.

By contrast, Xurkitree doesn't provide that much support. If anything, Xurkitree requires extensive support to be effective. It struggles to find a safe opportunity to set Tail Glow by itself. On the one hand, Adrenaline Orb could work to scare off Landorus Therian, but it seems easy to scare Xurkitree into switching out too, losing the speed boost in the process. Furthermore, Dazzling Gleam isn't good on something that doesn't gain STAB since it would have been 60 Power on multiple targets, and most Pokemon prefer Thunderbolt over Discharge precisely because the latter hit an ally. To simply put, I don't agree with ranking Xurkitree to Tier 4.
 
The advantage I found was that it counters every tier 1 pokemon except tapu koko and most of tier 2, were they not so popular it wouln't have any reason to exist. In regards to tail glow, as I've been going up the leagues I've realised it's harder to setup so I'm trying to change it for energy ball. To be entirely honest, the one common weakness it does have is max speed choice scarf Landorus-Therian, it's uncommon for someone to invest 252 EV and the ability into speed on top of choice scarf, but not unheard of.
 
Well, today people have been responding to my Xurkitree very efectively, given the timing I must asume they read the forum and figured out how to counter me, as such I guess this was just a gimmick that I have just blown away. Given this it'll probably stay a UR as his performance was based on lack of experience, rather than actual power. I'll keep an eye out for nobel strategies, my apologies but I just can't stand stricly follow the meta without a fight (; .
 
a few noms, a few of which I will argue aggressively for. I will provide extra argumentation if challenged
Chansey --> 4
Chansey hasn't stood the test of time with new metagame changes. Chansey was really good in the gengar meta because the meta was relatively slow, but as gengar got banned and koko became popular, the meta moved faster in a way that is not conducive to chansey's use, and tier 3 is no longer appropriate for it
Megaman--> 4
Same argument for chansey, but some stats. Megaman was used 9 times in snake, and won twice, both of which were on stax sample. Stax sample is probably just a team that has a bunch of bad mons put together really well, but is the outlier rather than the norm.
mega lati --> 5
same as Nick's nom for Megatar above; no one seems to use lati right now, calm mind is in a bit of a rough spot, and lati feels like it doesn't really do anything.
Zeraora-->5
Mon never wins. It is exactly the same as megaman, but it doesn't have intimidate. It just isn't right for the meta.
Megatar --> 5
It still kinda sucks, we just moved it to 4 but it really isn't that viable in this meta. I know it just got moved down, but as we leave SM, and head to SwSh, I'd like to get its tiering accurate.

Some more controversial noms
Fini --> 2
This one is hard to argue, but Fini just is not the monster that it used to be. Gengar kept Kartana and Koko down, Kartana because it had a hard time fighting Gengar (it was an absolute menace in that format, but Gengar protected its buddy fini), and Koko because risking the speed tie with Gengar was just not worth it. When Gengar got banned, Kartana was able to pressure fini more, and Koko became way more common, the pace of the meta went up. When the pace of the meta is relatively high, as it is right now, Fini finds itself unable to use calm mind, and its support sets don't get too much traction. Fini's snake stats really reinforce this argument. Using snake usage stats isn't perfect, but Fini has the 5th most usage, and a 35% winrate. Fini + Kartana has the worst battle differential of any pair of pokemon of any pokemon in snake.
Fini just isn't really that great right now.
Volcanion --> 3
Volcanion offers a ton of role compression, but that's also the biggest issue it faces. Volcanion teams suffer extensively from not having great type coverage offensively or defensively, because Volcanion is both the fire type and the water type. Volcanion has one of the worst winrates in snake: (
14 | Zygarde | 12 | 13.33% | 25.00% |
| 14 | Volcanion | 12 | 13.33% | 25.00% |, but actually lower at the time of writing.)

Volcanion also suffers from the issue of not being incineroar, and going 50/50 with kartana. It's just not that great.

Zygarde -->3
Zygarde's winrate is above, it's 3-9 in snake. 2 of those wins were on Stax sample. Zygarde is only good on stax sample in the current meta, it seems. Zygarde loses to lando, gets pressured by ice punch metagross, loses to kartana, genesect, kyub, and just doesn't do damage output without choice band, which is a set that people are struggling to fit on their teams right now. Zygarde is used, but it doesn't win.
Clanger --> 2
Clanger is bronk; it's + vs metagross, incin, Charizard, Kartana, Volcanion and Zygarde. Koko isn't even a hard counter because if Koko gets chipped, + 1 flamethrower or poison jab can easily take it out. Clanger is just very threatening, especially as fini is worse in the current meta.


Politoed, Kingdra, Swampert, Pelipper, Mega Camel, --> 3', a new tier where we recognize that cheese is strong, and not tier 4.
Cheese is good. We all know it's good. Rain is powerful. Hard TR is powerful. I'm tired of seeing Mega Camel and kingdra sitting in a tier with the likes of suicune and aegislash. Let's be realistic.
 

Nails

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Tsareena -> 5

Tsareena @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Queenly Majesty
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 SpD
Careful Nature
- Power Whip
- Helping Hand
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn

0 Atk Tsareena Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 174-205 (61.9 - 72.9%)
0 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 187-222 (66.5 - 79%)
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Tsareena in Sun: 300-354 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

- The mon is a bulky pivot that puts out solid damage (the calc vs koko is just for a comparison with kartana). 120 bp stab off of 120 base attack hurts stuff.
- Mono grass is a solid typing (it's a ground resist! it hard walls zygarde!).
- Slow U-turn along with priority blocking offer it ample opportunities to support more offensive threats, getting them in safely and allowing them to safely click their buttons.
- You don't want it eating a heat wave but it's just a sample calc to show off its bulk.

Tsareena has a clear niche that it executes consistently, it supports something that wants to get in safely and click big moves safely. There aren't a ton of mons that want that; it fits super comfortably on my crackhead rain team, but it was at its best in vgc sun and moon series where it had things like scarf ogre and xerneas to support. It was legitimately an A tier mon there, and it's nowhere near that good in doubles ou. However, despite the relatively low demand for its niche, the niche still exists, and it does what it does really well, while trading damage favorably with a surprisingly large portion of the tier. I think that it deserves tier 5.

Aside from that, I second all of Jon's noms, with extra emphasis on the creation of 3' and clanger -> 2.

Pokemon that are generally strong and can easily be placed on a variety of teams, but don't have the same level of prowess as the threats in Tier 1.
This fits Kommo-o quite well. Bump it up.
 

MajorBowman

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Doubles Colonel
Tsareena -> 5
Echoing this part, Tsareena is super cool. I haven't built much recently but one of my most recent teams was Tsareena + Volcarona and it felt super strong. Rapid Spin is pretty easy to fit over HJK on that set if you want it, and Fires like Volcarona and Zard both like having 1) a strong grass type partner and 2) hazard removal. Plus Queenly Majesty eliminating a lot of options against Volcarona (namely Fake Out) is super good
 
Ok I'm not 100% sure I believe this one, but I think it should be nommed anyway
Zapdos -->4
Zapdos is the least used pokemon in tier 3 by a decent margin; the only mons close are Chansey and Scizor, and I'm also nomming chansey to 4. 2 teams used Zapdos in the entirety of snake, and both of them lost. It seems like, in order to build strong teams in this format, zapdos isn't a particularly worthwhile consideration. I haven't seen the mon in a while, because nobody uses it, because it's not that good.

If you want to keep zap tier 3 by arguing about it's ability to set tw and so forth i'm happy with that, but the mon doesn't have the stats to back it up.
 
Ok I'm not 100% sure I believe this one, but I think it should be nommed anyway
Zapdos -->4
Zapdos is the least used pokemon in tier 3 by a decent margin; the only mons close are Chansey and Scizor, and I'm also nomming chansey to 4. 2 teams used Zapdos in the entirety of snake, and both of them lost. It seems like, in order to build strong teams in this format, zapdos isn't a particularly worthwhile consideration. I haven't seen the mon in a while, because nobody uses it, because it's not that good.

If you want to keep zap tier 3 by arguing about it's ability to set tw and so forth i'm happy with that, but the mon doesn't have the stats to back it up.
I have been using very rock heavy trick rooms recently so I haven't had much trouble with Zapdos, however if I don't manage to set up trick room or destroy it outright which is what happens with most teams the enemy atack under tailwind is very devastating, with zapdos being a great support to it. I think that tier 3 describes his performance well, some teams like mine, make it useless, but most of the time it's a good counter to popular mons.
 
I have been using very rock heavy trick rooms recently so I haven't had much trouble with Zapdos, however if I don't manage to set up trick room or destroy it outright which is what happens with most teams the enemy atack under tailwind is very devastating, with zapdos being a great support to it. I think that tier 3 describes his performance well, some teams like mine, make it useless, but most of the time it's a good counter to popular mons.
I agree that Zapdos beats some mons, but it seems like zapdos' position as the center of a gameplan doesn't really take the same place anymore. Zapdos kinda needs to stick around and be in a position to set up tailwind at any point in the game to be really useful to a team. However, If you run seed then Zapdos just gets chunked by physical attacks and finds it almost impossible to switch out, meaning that it gets taken out somewhat quickly and there's no opportunity to set up a second tailwind. If you do switch out Zapdos, you have to come back in to rocks, which is horrible for Zapdos's longevity and makes it hard to set up a second TW.
In addition, Zapdos doesn't really do much in the current meta; the water mons it wants to beat are fini and rain mons, but rain mons like swampert and ludicolo beat it, and fini is dropping in popularity and relevance. That means that in tailwind, Zapdos often doesn't do sufficient damage, but also has trouble switching out, putting it in the frustrating position of tailwind setter that does nothing. Suicune honestly does more with inner focus tw/roar and a greater ability to switch.
 
I agree that Zapdos beats some mons, but it seems like zapdos' position as the center of a gameplan doesn't really take the same place anymore. Zapdos kinda needs to stick around and be in a position to set up tailwind at any point in the game. However, If you run seed then Zapdos just gets chunked by physical attacks and finds it almost impossible to switch out, meaning that it gets taken out somewhat quickly and there's no opportunity to set up a second tailwind. If you do switch out Zapdos, you have to come back in to rocks, which is horrible for Zapdos's longevity and makes it hard to set up a second TW.
In addition, Zapdos doesn't really do much in the current meta; the water mons it wants to beat are fini and rain mons, but rain mons like swampert and ludicolo beat it, and fini is dropping in popularity and relevance. That means that in tailwind, Zapdos often doesn't do sufficient damage, but also has trouble switching out, putting it in the frustrating position of tailwind setter that does nothing. Suicune honestly does more with inner focus tw/roar and a greater ability to switch.
I see Zapdos as the porygon 2 of tailwind, it's kind of bad atacking, but you make 100% sure your speed control is put in place and your teammate will shortly take advantage of that. It may not be the best tier 3 but it's a safe enough bet to where it isn't a tier 4.
 
I see Zapdos as the porygon 2 of tailwind, it's kind of bad atacking, but you make 100% sure your speed control is put in place and your teammate will shortly take advantage of that. It may not be the best tier 3 but it's a safe enough bet to where it isn't a tier 4.
For P2, there aren't that many offensive TR setters, or at least ones that have enough HP to set up TR. For TW, you have Charizard, Kartana, Suicune, and Salamence. I think Zapdos's role is far more interchangable with those mons than that of p2 with any setter other than diancie, which loses too hard to metagross to be as consistent of a TR setter as p2 is on a variety of teams.
 
The problem with the TW mons you have mentioned, all but suicune have a very common X4 weakness, and counters to water type (grass, electric usually STAB boosted) are more common than to zapdos (rock, ice which are usually coverage moves).
 
The problem with the TW mons you have mentioned, all but suicune have a very common X4 weakness, and counters to water type (grass, electric usually STAB boosted) are more common than to zapdos (rock, ice which are usually coverage moves).
Hey man, I agree; zapdos fills a niche that no other mons fill. However, I think that the niche zapdos fills (being a reliable tailwind setter while not being weak to electric or grass, etc.) is not a role that is that highly desired in the current meta. Its grand total of 2 uses in Snake, a tournament with over 100 teams used in it, belies my point. Tsareena has a niche, and nothing else does exactly what Tsareena does, but Tsareena isn't commonly used at all (it was in fact used the same number of times as Zapdos). I wouldn't say Tsareena is tier 3, but that's because its niche isn't as called for. However, neither is Zapdos's. I can see it staying in 3 for newer users to understand that Zapdos is reasonably potent, except it just seems not to be reasonably potent.

For the record, I think all my arguments are fair, but would not be sad to see zapdos stay in 3, I'm merely arguing the position.
 
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Tsareena -> 5

Tsareena @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Queenly Majesty
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 SpD
Careful Nature
- Power Whip
- Helping Hand
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn

0 Atk Tsareena Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 174-205 (61.9 - 72.9%)
0 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 187-222 (66.5 - 79%)
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Tsareena in Sun: 300-354 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

- The mon is a bulky pivot that puts out solid damage (the calc vs koko is just for a comparison with kartana). 120 bp stab off of 120 base attack hurts stuff.
- Mono grass is a solid typing (it's a ground resist! it hard walls zygarde!).
- Slow U-turn along with priority blocking offer it ample opportunities to support more offensive threats, getting them in safely and allowing them to safely click their buttons.
- You don't want it eating a heat wave but it's just a sample calc to show off its bulk.

Tsareena has a clear niche that it executes consistently, it supports something that wants to get in safely and click big moves safely. There aren't a ton of mons that want that; it fits super comfortably on my crackhead rain team, but it was at its best in vgc sun and moon series where it had things like scarf ogre and xerneas to support. It was legitimately an A tier mon there, and it's nowhere near that good in doubles ou. However, despite the relatively low demand for its niche, the niche still exists, and it does what it does really well, while trading damage favorably with a surprisingly large portion of the tier. I think that it deserves tier 5.

Aside from that, I second all of Jon's noms, with extra emphasis on the creation of 3' and clanger -> 2.


This fits Kommo-o quite well. Bump it up.
I have found her to be a good replacement for tapu lele in my hard trick room team and serving as cover against water types at the same time, especially swampert and gastrodon, although I'm using trop kick for the 100% precision and utility. She has compactes my core and allowed me to carry tapu fini instead for increased utility. I think that tapu lele is a better option overall, but for these kinds of situations Tsareena prevails, a solid tier 5 in my opinion.

I have just discovered Queenly Majesty unlike psiquic terrain blocks prankster moves aswell, that pretty much makes her tier 4.5 on my eyes.
 
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DaWoblefet

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I have just discovered Queenly Majesty unlike psiquic terrain blocks prankster moves aswell, that pretty much makes her tier 4.5 on my eyes.
Psychic Terrain also locks moves with increased priority due to Prankster, so that shouldn't impact your opinion on Tsareena by itself. The biggest difference is that Queenly Majesty doesn't force your Pokemon to be grounded to have priority immunity, as well as opening up the door to use different Terrains simultaneously.
 
Psychic Terrain also locks moves with increased priority due to Prankster, so that shouldn't impact your opinion on Tsareena by itself. The biggest difference is that Queenly Majesty doesn't force your Pokemon to be grounded to have priority immunity, as well as opening up the door to use different Terrains simultaneously.
Also, it prevents your opponent from just switching in a terrain to cancel the priority blocking
 

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