Resource USUM Doubles OU Viability Rankings (Updated 11/16 on post #293)

[Croven]

I think kingdra is dope
I also think garde is dope
Poli and peli --> tier 3
garde --> stay in tier 4

Ok but do you have any replays showing why this causes a bad match up? What other evidence can you use to support this claim? The VR isn't for simple one liners that do not truly add discussion and talking points to the rankings in general.

dude LITERALLY the post above yours explains that one liners and noms with no evidence are pointless. I get that you’re a good player but posts like these contribute nothing to discussion. Would you mind elaborating why you believe in these points, preferably with replays to showcase them? your input as an SPL player is valuable, but as it stands right now, this post serves zero purpose and is the epitome of what we are trying to avoid in this thread

 

[Ezrael]

That's fair, I did only post a one liner. I kinda just wanted to get that off of my chest because I had been holding onto it in preparation for my spl game. I'll post replays after this week for at least my team, because my test matches involved playing a bunch of people who are also prepping for spl.

For gardevoir, I think that gardevoir kinda sucks, but it definitely has its uses. Hyper voice spread damage is really good in a format where honestly, there's not that much spread damage. There are a few spread damage dealers on standard teams: fini, zygarde, and zard are the only ones that deal real spread damage that I can see within tier 1 and tier 2, and most of tier 3 (kingdra i'm going to deal with slightly later, and hyper voice salamence isn't real you can't convince me I won't believe you). Fini is dropping off in viability as a calm minder imo, as gengar's removal has somehow led to higher tempo games that cm fini can't always find its place in. Metagross has always been pretty good against fini in balance games, and idk, it's just felt a lot weaker. Zygarde has also gotten a ton weaker as its band set vanished with gengarite. Zard is pretty good though, I'll give you that. Landorus doesn't use earthquake, because the tier doesn't have good ground immunities to pair it with besides zard.
What does that have to do with Gardevoir? Fairy type spread damage is really strong, especially when there's not much other spread damage in the format. It hits for neutral or SE on most pokemon, doing large chunks of damage. E.g.:

212+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Landorus-Therian: 196-232 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 214-253 (76.1 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 135-159 (39.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

These being spread damage numbers is really good and sets up damage for the rest of the team. Note; garde can also psyshock fini if it gets boosts up, which is also good.

Further, Gardevoir can set trick room for itself, giving it access to a bunch of supporters that it can use that are strong in the metagame, like amoonguss, lurantis, araquanid (I'm not sure they're all good with it though) that need trick room to thrive and value other mons being chipped.

Garde fits the definition of '

Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support but are still stronger than Pokemon in the tiers below.

as Gardevoir probably requires a fake outer and probably tailwind to do what it really wants to do. However, I've found that gardevoir puts out really good damage, at least on my team, and I imagine on others (I have a few versions of Gardevoir Rain that I enjoyed).

On rain. Rain is really good in this format. In a format where the best megas are charizard, metagross and manectric, rain manages to put in a lot of work. You would think it would do the same against Gengar, but for some reason the trapping really worked out.

I think that having politoed and pelipper lower on the tier list than kingdra makes no sense, so regardless of where kingdra goes I think politoed and pelipper should be higher, especially because I believe both of them are viable on rain teams. For reference: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7doublesou-420908, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7doublesou-423686, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7doublesou-424500
Three clean spl replays where rain beats the nominally countering weathers. I can also link a bunch of replays where rain tears apart metagross teams, none of which got a showing. Rain as an offensive archetype is really strong. It's also somewhat versatile; the first replay shows Perish Rain trap with kommo-o, a kind of cheesy odd archetype, the second is a very offensive team with 3 rain sweepers, and the third is Garde Balance with 2 mon rain added to it. Admittedly in the third replay the rain doesn't get to do much damage, but the presence of politoed on my team scared out charizard and prevented EmbC from doing a ton of damage with his charizard in the midgame, and would have been useful in a bunch of circumstances.

Rain is coming up big in SPL, and I have a bunch more replays of me winning with different rain teams in practice for spl which I can link if anyone wants. I think it's clear that rain fits the definition of 'Pokemon that are generally strong, but can be dead weight in some matchups, don't have great matchups vs a lot of Tier 1 and 2, or are only particularly useful for checking a certain team style.' There are a few matchups where rain gets blown up (SMB destroyed me with a team that had all of the counters, for instance) but rain is really strong in the meta and I think the VR should reflect that.

I didn't deal with kingdra specifically but holy shit that mon deals so much damage it's so strong

 

[talkingtree]

First things first, the lovely Croven has joined our ranks! Thanks to building with qsns, he's seen sides of the meta that haven't been as explored for the rest of the council, so we're excited to have his input. Also, we're back to even numbers, so any ties will default to whichever position is closest to the status quo. Now, onto the slate!

Mega Tyranitar 4 -> 3

votes

Croven: No, haven’t really been impressed by it so far. Still weak after intimidates, struggles to beat Kartana, Fini, Lando, Metagross, etc. Zard may be more popular yes but the rest of the meta is still way too unkind.

Demantoid: No. It theoretically has a few okay match ups, but I still haven’t seen it at all.

emforbes: No, way too many threats to tar. Kart, Metagross, Landorus, Zygarde, Fini, Genesect, etc all pressure it way too much. Not to mention the prevalence of intimidate making -1 rock slide and crunch do pitiful damage. It has set up options in curse and dragon dance but I wouldn’t say the meta has suddenly shifted in the favor of ttar besides Zard rising in popularity.

MajorBowman: Agree with everyone, Mega Tyranitar is good but threatened by way too many popular mons to move up right now. Remain 4

SMB: no, I agree it is a bit better now that zard, latias and cress are more popular, but this is not enough imo when it has so many bad matchups vs tier 1 and 2 mons

talkingtree: Yes, I feel like Ttar’s ability to switch in on and beat a few key threats is incredibly valuable to the teams it’s on. Non-Icium KyuB, Mega Charizard Y, Zapdos, and Incineroar are all pretty positive matchups for Ttar and it has some valuable flexibility with Stealth Rock, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, and even setup sets, though I think those are its least viable option. It does need some support, but it synergizes really well with things like Kart/Gene and always seems to live longer than you’d think.

Gothitelle 4 -> 3

votes

Croven: Yes, been messing around with Gothitelle last week and was extremely impressed. Trapping is still extremely good, especially in a more bulky metagame like right now. Definitely deserving of 3

Demantoid: Yes. Psychic is okay defensive typing right now and Goth has the bulk to make it work with how much support it provides.

emforbes: Yes, trapping is broken. Goth has very good support options for a lot of team styles. The competitive set is also extremely niche but nothing to scoff I at.

MajorBowman: I’m not sure I’m so impressed by Goth to move it up to 3, but I definitely agree that it’s a very good Pokemon that has been pretty underexplored since the Gengar ban. I’ll vote no just because it still relies on its partners to get anything done but in the right position Goth is super scary

SMB: yes, ban shadow tag

talkingtree: Yes, trapping + support is still quite good, and people in SPL have shown that Goth can be much more flexible than it seemed before SPL started.

Necrozma UR -> 5

votes

Croven: Yes, I started to use this during invitationals and was very impressed. Can run a variety of sets that should be explored, and very strong even after just 1 CM. Personally I think it could rise above 5, but I’d need to see more replays before that. Until then, 5 is fine

Demantoid: Yes. Good special attack and coverage gives it a niche over other bulky psychics.

emforbes: Yes, cm/tr z ground has shown to be a solid option. Prism Armor is also a great ability.

MajorBowman: Honestly thought this was already 5, I definitely think it’s good enough to be ranked. Both the CM and TR sets are good at what they do but are minorly outclassed by other things, so 5 seems like a perfect place to be

SMB: yes, this should have risen a few months ago. Really good offensive tr setter that can ohko incineroar and metagross with z earth power. CM set is still threatening even if now most teams are more prepared for bulky cm mons since necrozma can afford more offensive investment and has better coverage moves.

talkingtree: Yes, qsns/Croven’s team with Necrozma has shown off its potential to the fullest; being an offensive Psychic-type that matches up well against Metagross/Incineroar is a really cool niche.

Naganadel 5 -> UR

votes

Croven: Tentative no, stax has been using this thing against me in several test games and while it’s not fantastic, it does the job well enough and I think is worth staying in Tier 5. Poison is just a great offensive typing and I’d say 5 is where it belongs right now

Demantoid: No. Agree with emforbes about it potentially being 4. It ohko’s almost everything in tier 1 and 2 and Beast Boost’s speed boosts are very helpful for things like Genesect.

emforbes: No, I could see it rising to tier 4 if people choose to actually experiment. It has really cool support options like ally switch, tailwind, snarl, sky drop, and helping hand. Offensively naga is also very scary, and it gets broken u-turn.

MajorBowman: Yes, never been a fan of Naganadel. It’s one of those Pokemon that should be able to do a lot of things in theory but in practice it has to pick between one or two. It leaves itself exposed to certain mons regardless of what it picks and one wrong turn usually means its pretty worthless for the rest of the game

SMB: abstain

talkingtree: Abstain, I’ve used this a few times and always been happy with the niche that it fills but that niche usually feels very small.

Torkoal UR -> 5

votes

Croven: Played enough test games vs GenOne, fespy, and SMB to say that yes I think 5 is fine for this. Bulky, has rocks, sets up sun, is really strong in said sun, etc. I’m fine with this

Demantoid: Abstain. I think it’s fine but I’d like to see it have more sustained use before ranking it.

emforbes: Yes, super scary under trick room especially when paired with diancie <_< shoutout to smb and fespy. Fespy’s nom basically covers everything.

MajorBowman: Abstain, agree with Demantoid. It feels almost like a flavor of the month right now and I’m not convinced it will last

SMB: yes, i think sun is very good rn and tr/semiroom sun is really unexplored, this mon isn’t easy to fit on many teams but can perform really well on the right team as showed in snake.

talkingtree: Abstain, I agree with Demantoid. Don’t want the VR to become a house for any slightly-viable mon and I’m not quite sure at this point whether Torkoal crosses the line I’ve pictured for making tier 5.

Chansey 4 -> 3

votes

Croven: Yes lol this thing’s so dang good, can really win games and provide so much utility / pressure with its wide support movepool. I think qsns really hit everything, and we discussed it before his nom anyways. Definitely deserves 3

Demantoid: Yes, same reasoning as last slate. Chansey for 2 though (ღ˘⌣˘ღ)

emforbes: Yes, in hindsight it offers way too much utility for teams to only be in tier 4. I will say I really dislike a number of teams that chansey is simply straight up slapped on. Qsns points were really good, I agree completely.

MajorBowman: No, I’ve never really understood the Chansey hype. It’s a cool support mon but it has never felt worthy of anything over 4 or even 5 to me. It’s really not that hard to build teams that aren’t gonna lose to Chansey at preview and there are plenty of ways to handle it during games

SMB: yes, qsns arguments are solid. Also, it’s way better than any other mon in tier 4 and chansey is something you should always take in account when you’re building a team. I’m not ok with this rising more than tier 3 tho.

talkingtree: Yes, but I still stand by what I said in the last voting slate. I can see why qsns nominated this again, and I acknowledge that many of his points are valid; SPL has continued to show that Chansey’s here to stay and I think the biggest shift for me is that people are using it as a utility provider instead of as something they just hope the opponent can’t break. Chansey’s sort of out of my usual playstyle but its reliable speed control, solid chip damage, and bulk to back these up are enough for even me to see why this blob has risen in popularity. Tier 2 is legit insane though.

Mega Gardevoir 4 -> 5 -> UR

votes

Croven: Abstain, haven’t really played this enough to have an opinion

Demantoid: 5. Only fits on a few archetypes where it’s not always even the best mega. Even when a team is built around it, it can still end up doing nothing. It’s also one of the hardest mons to use in battle because of its low defense and average speed.

emforbes: Tier 5, still a good mon that most people are too lazy to use tbh. I don’t agree that it’s actually in a bad place meta wise rn either, Metagross has been dropping in popularity and Zard Y offense isn’t actually favored against it imo. I could definitely see it rising up to potentially tier 3 in the future.

MajorBowman: I’m in the same boat as tree, torn between 4 and 5 but absolutely don’t think it should be UR. Having consistent spread damage is really nice for a lot of teams, especially when classic fairy resists in the tier (Fire and Steel types) don’t actually resist Fairy (Incineroar is neutral and Kart takes super effective damage). My personal vote is still for 4 but I wouldn’t be mad if it dropped

SMB: Tier 5, it requires too much support to work and even then this mon is just ok. Weird speed tier to run tr, really low defense, fails to ohko threats it should beat… Honestly I say tier 5 because I’ve seen this mon working on the right team but it’s closer to UR than tier 4 imo.

talkingtree: I think tier 5 is fine, I’ve probably gone back and forth between 4 and 5 on every low-tier sweep. Definitely shouldn’t be UR, it can do some serious work offensively or supportively on the right team.

Hoopa-U 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> UR

votes

Croven: Tier 4. Definitely not deserving of 3 or UR, and I think it’s slightly better than 5. Still extremely strong and breaking protect is pretty dope. Not great but I think it’s slightly above Tier 5.

Demantoid: 5. It’s not quite strong or bulky enough to well in this meta. Only really effective when a surprise z-move can find a kill.

emforbes: Tier 5, this thing sees basically no usage outside of fullroom post gar ban. Not a bad mon by any means but I think the definition of tier 5 fits it perfectly.

MajorBowman: Similarly to Garde I’m bouncing between 4 and 5 but don’t think it should be UR. Hoopa-U from gen 6 to gen 7 is probably one of the biggest falls from grace DOU has seen but it’s still not a bad mon whatsoever. Breaking through protects and subs is really nice and I think the more wacky sets like scarf and z are still a little underexplored. I think 5 is alright for now but could see it getting back up to 4

SMB: Tier 4 is alright, i’d never use this anymore as a tr setter but i think it still can perform well on balance or offense teams with a scarf or a z focus blast set. Its signature moves are just too good for this to be tier 5.

talkingtree: 4 is fine for now, I acknowledge that Hoopa-U’s usage is incredibly low but I think its unique ability to punish Protecting and passive gameplay is a large enough niche to keep it above 5.

Amoonguss 2 -> 3

votes

Croven: This is a bit tough since I think qsns’ points are very fair and valid, but I’ve played against it a lot and it’s always been annoyingly good at what it does. Keep it at 2 for now but if Zard and Mence get more relevant then I can see this moving down at a later point in time

Demantoid: Yes. Almost everything besides Fini and Koko carries something that hits Amoonguss hard. It also has to choose between having good special or physical bulk. In my experience it also has much lower usage than the rest of 2.

emforbes: Yes, I think qsns is spot on with his reasoning.

MajorBowman: Definitely not, Amoonguss is still super good. It straight up walls a lot of stuff and is pretty invaluable support for any team it’s on. qsns is correct in saying it has disappointing terrain matchups against koko and fini but amoonguss is also one of the best checks to both of those pokemon in the tier. It’s still just an amazing pokemon so I think it should definitely stay in 2

SMB: huh no, i agree it faces a lot of competition for the grass type slot but it can put a ton of work if you’re not playing in misty/electric terrain, and even then amoonguss beats both koko and fini and it’s probably the best counter to cm fini. Best redirector in the tier and good tr and rain check, tier 2 mon without any doubt.

talkingtree: I can see where qsns is coming from on all of his points, but I think Amoonguss’ role as the clearly most viable redirector and sleep spreader is too important to the functioning of the tier to drop it to 3. Teams aren’t quite hostile enough to Amoonguss to make it dead weight in any single matchup, and some flexibility like Ezrael showed against Edu gives it a bit of a nudge upwards as well.

Tapu Lele 2 -> 3

votes

Croven: Yes, basically what qsns said. Throwback to when most of us thought this was the best tapu lol

Demantoid: Yes. It’s slower than most offensive mons but can’t easily find kills slow bulky mons leaving it in an awkward spot.

emforbes: Yes, I agree with everything said by qsns.

MajorBowman: Yeah I think this is fair. It’s always been the worst of the 4 tapus and I think its status as a tapu alone kept it in 2 for a while, but it’s easily the least difficult to manage of the 4 and

SMB: yeah, qsns nailed it, drop this.

talkingtree: Yep, nominated this myself a couple times and qsns put it quite well.

Victini 3 -> 4

votes

Croven: Yeah I think I agree with all of qsns’ points on this one. Down to Tier 4 (rocks r broken send tweet)

Demantoid: Yes. rocks sogood

emforbes: Yes, qsns noms are too good.

MajorBowman: Agree with everyone here, 4 is fine

SMB: yes, this was overhyped during snake. Faces a lot of competition vs better fire types and the lack of recovery limits its switch ins.

talkingtree: Yeah, I think AV Victini is something we all thought would become a meta staple during Snake draft and then it sorta disappeared as everyone adapted to it.

Kingdra 3 -> 4 -> 5

votes

Croven: hmmmm I’d say Tier 4 for now, it’s weak to Fini which blows but it’s extremely strong vs a lot of other mons and in tests has been very scary to face. Dropping is fine, but I don’t think it deserves to go down all the way to 5. Tier 4

Demantoid: 4. I think rain hasn’t been relevant enough recently for Kingdra to stay 3. Kingdra also isn’t clearly the best Swift Swimmer anymore since Swampert and Ludicolo both provide much better second STABs.

emforbes: Yes, only good on rain, way worse against standard balance teams compared to Ludi.

MajorBowman: 4 is a fine spot for it. It’s certainly a decent rain sweeper but rain itself is pretty meh right now. Wouldn’t go to 5 just yet but doesn’t feel deserving of 3

SMB: yes, this deserves a drop, rain is not very good rn which is the only playstyle where this is usable, i’d still keep this above ludicolo because it has better spa, double target stab and can beat kyub so i’m going to say 4.

talkingtree: Yeah, Tier 4 seems fitting. Kingdra’s no longer the sole viable rain attacker and its competitors, Mega Swampert and Ludicolo, offer fairly substantial value that Kingdra doesn’t. It’s too strong for tier 5 though.

Changes
Gothitelle 4 -> 3
Necrozma UR -> 5
Torkoal UR -> 5
Chansey 4 -> 3
Mega Gardevoir 4 -> 5
Hoopa-U 3 -> 4
Tapu Lele 2 -> 3
Victini 3 -> 4
Kingdra 3 -> 4

The lower-tier sweep will be coming in about a week; Tier 4 is absolutely enormous now so we'll probably be doing something about that. Ezrael's Poli and Peli -> 3 noms will be covered in the next slate if he still wants them to rise; not sure whether he just wanted them in the same tier as Kingdra.

 

[Ezrael]

Politoed and Pelipper to tier 3
Reasoning as to the strength of rain given above.
I think that if Rain is strong, at least some of the rain mons should be ranked highly. The thing that makes rain strong isn't the strength of any individual sweeper, but the structure of the swift swim combo; the setters are the pokemon that should get the higher tier ranks (kingdra is still cool, you guys drool).

 

[talkingtree]

As promised, it's time for the low-tier sweep! With the considerably larger Tier 4 and Tier 5 in comparison to the other three tiers, we discussed a few different options for clearing up the organization and making them seem less bloated. There's no clear divisions to separate these tiers in terms of level of viability, so adding another tier or introducing 4+/4- wouldn't solve anything. Instead, we took a look at the Tier 4 description:

Pokemon which have broad applications on a variety of teams but are simply less effective than the Pokemon in the higher tiers. This also includes Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support but are still stronger than Pokemon in the tiers below.

So basically, there are two different reasons that Pokemon might be found in the lower tiers; either they're fairly widely usable, but generally not as effective, or they have the potential to be incredibly deadly, but only with the right support on the right style of team. With that in mind, I proposed that we bring back something from before - Tier X vs Tier X'. We had discarded this some time ago due to confusion over the comparative viability of the two tiers, but with the introduction of tables, I think that problem can be avoided.

Thus, on this slate we voted between five different options as opposed to the usual three - 4, 4', 5, 5', and UR. Since the primary goal of this resource is determining viability and not organizational decisions, each result first looked at which larger tier the Pokemon in question got the most votes for (with ties deferring to the status quo), then decided whether X or X' would be more applicable. Thus, something like Hoopa-U which got votes of 4, 5', 5', 5', 4, and 4' would be placed in tier 4' even though that specific option didn't get the majority. (Tier 4 wins on 3-3 tie going to its current place, and X' wins 4-2 over X)

Without further ado, here's the slate and the list of changes!

slate

Changes:
Bronzong 5 -> 5'
Mega Camerupt 4 -> 4'
Excadrill 5 -> 5'
Ferrothorn 4 -> 5
Hoopa-U 4 -> 4'
Kingdra 4 -> 4'
Kommo-o 5 -> 5'
Latias 5 -> UR
Ludicolo 5 -> 5'
Lurantis 4 -> 4'
Pelipper 4 -> 4'
Politoed 4 -> 4'
Rotom-W 5 -> UR
Stakataka 4 -> 5'
Suicune 4 -> 5
Mega Swampert 4 -> 4'
Togedemaru 5 -> 5'
Torkoal 5 -> 5'

This explanation hopefully clears up some preliminary questions, but it's still a new system so if there are any other questions, comments, or concerns, feel free to place them in this thread! Hopefully this distinction also starts to address some of Elise's complaints about ambiguity of rankings, though I'm still considering further steps past this like those suggested in Elise's original post.

 

[finally]

coming back to doubles like

 

[miltankmilk]

Volcarona 4’->3
I think for a long time volcarona was written off as not a very useful mon and it really wasn’t, but I think in the current meta its a very potent threat. The change in landorus-t’s common sets has made it so at +1, volc essentially walls landorus, along with the tier’s most prevalent fire type being threatened by Z Bug Buzz. Also aiding volc are the rise of kartana, and genesect as some of the most common steel types being used, pokemon that really cant touch volc.
This along with the complete disappearance of set up sweepers in the current meta carves out a much larger niche for Volcarona.

 

[Jrenner]

Volcarona 4’->3
I think for a long time volcarona was written off as not a very useful mon and it really wasn’t, but I think in the current meta its a very potent threat. The change in landorus-t’s common sets has made it so at +1, volc essentially walls landorus, along with the tier’s most prevalent fire type being threatened by Z Bug Buzz. Also aiding volc are the rise of kartana, and genesect as some of the most common steel types being used, pokemon that really cant touch volc.
This along with the complete disappearance of set up sweepers in the current meta carves out a much larger niche for Volcarona.

Stealth rocks is crazy good rn and makes it very hard to use effectively without spin or defog... also requires a lot of support in order to set up. I think it should stay in 4.

 

[miltankmilk]

Stealth rocks is crazy good rn and makes it very hard to use effectively without spin or defog... also requires a lot of support in order to set up. I think it should stay in 4.

RE: Stealth Rock
Yes its common and yes it is crippling for volc, but for the same reason that Charizard is a playable and exceptionally viable pokemon right now is the same as why Volc should move up. By a large margin the most common stealth rocker is Landorus-T, usually pinch or yache berry without a great move to hit volc or zard. This makes it actually fairly easy to come in on the stealth rock turn rather than having to take rocks damage. See this game from spl https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7doublesou-424718

Volc doesnt have to be at or near full to threaten teams, it doesn’t even need to be +1. Unboosted and Swarm boosted z bug buzz is very strong on its own.

Yes rocks are good, but in practice Volcs matchup vs stealth rock setters is very good to the point where its hard to actually set rocks to cripple volc a lot of the time

 

[talkingtree]

Time for some noms of my own:

Tapu Koko 2 -> 1
I know we just voted on this like 6 weeks ago but since then Koko's shown in SPL that it has significantly more flexibility in viable sets than was previously widely recognized. The bulky pivot set is pretty widely usable and effective, taking advantage of the recent swell in Nature's Madness-style moves and its wide support movepool to act as a different kind of Mega Manectric support. At the same time, its offensive sets with Choice Specs and Electrium Z (and obviously still the more standard Life Orb) can be quite threatening and enjoy positive matchups against Mega Metagross, Mega Charizard Y, and Mega Salamence. It even has more uses than Fini so far in SPL. I'm not entirely sure whether I'll even vote for this, but I feel that Koko's versatility, widespread usability, its ability to get around most checks with the right set make this worth considering.

Mega Manectric 2 -> 3
Conversely, I think Mega Manectric finds itself in a bit of an odd place in this meta. Lacking access to Taunt / Nature's Madness / Electroweb / Defog / actually strong offensive output makes it much more constricted than Koko. The Gengarite ban also means that its Speed advantage over Tapu Koko is largely ornamental. Intimidate and fast pivoting will always be decent, but Mega Manectric simply isn't as relevant as it once was.

Tyranitar 3 -> 4
I don't think regular Tyranitar has much over Mega anymore - in fact, the loss of a second chance to reset weather is pretty frustrating for some teams with various sun (Torkoal, HO or Bulky Zard Offense) and rain (Ludicolo, semiroom trapping) comps showing renewed success. Tyranitar's still a decent pick in the meta, but I don't think it belongs above Mega and my peers all voted Mega to stay tier 4.

Milotic 4 -> 5 and Tornadus 4 -> 5
Both of these could be handled in the low-tier sweep, but they sort of go together so I just wanted to touch on my thoughts and hopefully get those of my fellow rankers as well. Intimidate spam / shuffling has become somewhat less prominent with the decline in Mega Manectric builds, and people have largely adapted to Competitive / Defiant users to the point where they can't get as much done anymore. Milotic struggles to differentiate itself as a bulky Water-type and Kartana / Tapu Bulu / Tapu Koko being super common makes bulky Water-types in general a smaller niche. Tornadus largely suffers from comparison to the once-again-relevant Mega Salamence, which has actually versatility, coverage, and actually usable bulk over Tornadus.

Togekiss 5 -> UR
Togekiss didn't get voted off the VR last time and I'm kind of surprised so I wanted to hear other thoughts. Togekiss offers little defensive utility over other Tailwind setters and next to nothing over other redirectors; I'd even rather use Volcarona if I needed a redirector and Tailwind setter in one. Togekiss does very little that isn't done better by Mega Salamence, Zapdos, or even Shaymin-S tbh. I like Togekiss, and I think it can work on the right team, but those "right team"s are becoming fewer and further between so Togekiss shouldn't stay on the VR.

There are a few other mons in 5 that I'll probably be voting to UR next sweep, but none that I feel need reasonings for and none that I feel too strongly about so I'll just let those slide until the low-tier sweep

Mega Venusaur UR -> 5
Someone else who's used this more extensively should say more because I'm sure in testing for various SPL games there's been much more experimentation with Mega Venusaur than I've seen, but it seems like a solidly bulky check to Kart/Bulu/Fini/Koko all in one, which is pretty great role compression. It can struggle somewhat with staying healthy enough to reliably check the threats you need it for, but between Leech Seed, Synthesis, and Heal Pulse support it usually manages (when it doesn't get flinched).

Probably sending out the next slate on Friday, so get your noms in now if you have them!

 

[Ezrael]

Tapu Koko 2--> 2
Not super sold on Koko being a tier 1 mon; despite its higher usage than fini it also sports a negative win rate, and 11% less win rate than Fini (although incineroar has a 40% win rate, so what does that mean). On the other hand, I think Koko is a lot better than most of the tier 2 Pokemon like Amoonguss, Volcanion, and Zygarde, that I'm not sure it really belongs in tier 2. All in all, Koko is a massive threat that I take into account when building my teams and although it might not be precisely true that 'you can't go wrong with using it', it's a very potent force and deserves to be treated as such.
Would be comfortable seeing it in tier 1, but mostly I think Koko is just kinda homeless.

Mega Garde 5 --> 5'
I think that this description just fits Garde a little better; Garde needs tr sweepers, and probably alternate tr setters or an alternate out of TR sweeper, and tailwind to really do as much work as it would like to. Garde doesn't really find a home on many teams but struggle to find matchups, it requires specific support and can only work on certain teams

Megaman 2 -->3
The mon just isn't that great anymore, as the pace of the game has increased slightly since the Gengar ban. Teams need to do a bit more to be able to win consistently in this metagame, and it feels like Manectric just doesn't do enough.

I agree with the rest of Tree's noms, they just seem fair.
VR seems to be in a good spot right now on the whole.

 

[talkingtree]

It's shift time! The lower-tier sweep will be in a couple weeks, since that never needs to be more than once a month. I bet no one reads these introductory lines, but if you're one of the people that does then I hope you have a wonderful day.

Pelipper 4’ -> 3

votes

Croven: Nah, generally worse than toed and rain itself is somewhat niche. 4’ fits it perfectly imo, should stay.

Demantoid: No, very frail and doesn’t have enough speed against most current teams. Gothitelle is also popular on rain right now which Politoed pairs better with.

emforbes: No, I haven’t seen anything out of pelipper that should merit a rise. Pelipper is a still a good mon on rain but tier 4’ is exactly where it should be by definition.

MajorBowman: No, 4’ seems like it was made specifically for Pelipper. It’s only ever used on rain and even competes for a spot with Politoed on those teams. Still a solid mon but not tier 3 solid.

SMB: no, only fits in rain and tier 4’ is literally the place for these mons

talkingtree: No, I think the support it provides is generally less useful than Politoed’s unless they desperately need something for Bulu.

Politoed 4’ -> 3

votes

Croven: Still no, rain is decent and toed is better than peli, but its use is still pretty niche and not too wide. 4’ fits it well, basically agree w what every1 else already said

Demantoid: No, Rain still seems to only see only occasional use, and it’s much less effective if your opponent knows you like to use it.

emforbes: No, Poli definitely has better support options compared to pelipper + general bulk but it’s only a great pokemon on one style, the other water types outclass it on other builds. Rain is very strong but politoed isn’t tier 3 material imo.

MajorBowman: Same idea as Pelipper, Politoed really only has 1 niche and it’s on a very specific archetype so 4’ seems perfect for it.

SMB: no, i think this is a worse rain setter than peli because it doesn’t synergizes as well with swampert, can’t hit bulu, can’t provide momentum unless you’re running eject button which means no damp rock and the speed control it provides is also worse. But yeah, same reason as with pelipper, tier 4’ is its place.

talkingtree: No, I think Politoed’s better than Pelipper on most teams and rain + Goth builds have shown serious promise, but the only way I’d potentially reflect that would be to drop Pelipper, not raise Politoed. 4’ is good for it for now, willing to take another look at this if and when rain picks up steam.

Volcarona 4’ -> 3

votes

Croven: No. I want to see it more since I think it could potentially move up, but haven’t seen anything too much yet to say so. Agree w demantoid / tree, maybe move in the future but not enough use to say right now.

Demantoid: No, I’d like to see the QD set have more usage/success or the bulky set rising in popularity more before it rises. Volcarona is pretty matchup dependent so it is more effective against some people than others.

emforbes: I agree with what demantoid and tree said, I would just like to see more volc play before we jump to tier 3. The QD and bulky rage powder sets are both very strong in the correct matchups, but 4’ seems to fit volc well right now.

MajorBowman: Everyone else has said it perfectly. I think it has the potential to rise if people start figuring out ways to use either of its sets more effectively but it hasn’t reached that point yet. Remain 4

SMB: 4, it can run over unprepared teams but still requires a lot of support to work (fake out, intimidate, hazard removal) for a mon that lacks immediate offensive pressure

talkingtree: Volcarona is incredibly threatening but it needs a lot to go right to be at its best. It might be the best of the mons in its tier, but I feel like 4’ fits it perfectly and it’s not seeing the usage or success I’d like before rising it higher.

Tapu Koko 2 -> 1

votes

Croven: I’m going to go with no for now, despite the fact that I use it a lot, because I think the upper end of 2 fits it better. It can definitely dominate some matchups but when playing it, its not as useful in every single game as the rest of Tier 1 is. All of Tier 1 right now is generally never deadweight in any matchup, which I feel like koko can be. Overall, I think Tier 1 mons are just slightly more useful in every matchup and consistently strong, and I don’t think koko is there yet. Tough decision, but stay in 2.

Demantoid: Yes, has a variety of moves and items it can viably use that make it effective in pretty much any match up. Fall in Manectric usage helps it because it often means it’s the fastest mon on the field. Kartana’s surge in popularity also helps it because they pair well together and it means opposing teams often have fewer sturdy Electric resists.

emforbes: Abstain, I’m undecided on this one. Koko is ridiculously strong but I think its success is mostly due to facing unprepared teams. Offensive Koko dominates slower teams that have trouble handling gigavolt pressure along with the momentum a potential volt switch can give to the opponent. Defensive bulu teams, or venusaur builds like the one croven used really don’t struggle with the offensive set at all. Support koko definitely flips a lot of teams that have a good matchup against the offensive set on paper though. I’m really not sure on this nom :(.

MajorBowman: Yes, I’m honestly surprised it even dropped to 1 and I think I made this nom recently too. Koko is still a powerhouse and can run a lot of different sets very effectively. The bulky support set I brought week 2 of SPL is super good and has so many options as far as moves go, and the offensive sets pack a huge punch. It only benefited from Gengar getting the axe and I don’t see Koko as anything other than tier 1.

SMB: I agree with croven here, koko is definitely one of the best, if not the best mon in tier 2 but for me hasn’t reached the level of usefulness that mons like lando, incineroar or fini can provide, keep in 2

talkingtree: my nom, standing by this one. Tapu Koko is so good right now, read the nom for my full thoughts.

Mega Manectric 2 -> 3

votes

Croven: Eh yeah, mane isn’t actually terrible but I don’t think its 2 material. Not too much to add, I think tree and demantoid covered what I want to say.

Demantoid: Yes, not quite as effective in this meta. Teams often want a mega with lots of offensive pressure which Manectric doesn’t really provide. The rise in offense in general hurts Manectric since its mediocre bulk doesn’t let it switch in as often.

emforbes: Abstain, I get the nom but I’m not sure mane should be dropped yet. Mane is still a nuisance for a lot of teams, it just has very low spl usage. While mane isn’t a crazy offensive threat, it enables other mons extremely well, which is what mane has always done because of the unrivaled role it has for balance teams.

MajorBowman: Yes, I’ve never been too keen on Manectric. It’s a decent pivot but struggles to generate offense and pretty desperately needs teammates that can actually take advantage of its passive support or else Manectric teams just become way too passive.

SMB: yes, i've never been a fan of this mon being tier 2; it doesn't check as well as it should the mons it is supposed to check and it just doesn't put enough offensive pressure.

talkingtree: my nom

Tyranitar 3 -> 4

votes

Croven: Yes, honestly i’ve rarely seen regular tar have usage and it’s just not great when I do. Bad speed, lots of weaknesses, kinda weak after one Intimidate, etc etc. Drop to 4

Demantoid: A lot of common pokemon either have a terrible or amazing Tyranitar match up. This leads to it having theoretical uses but often being ineffective in practice. Low speed makes it vulnerable to dying before it can do anything.

emforbes: Yes, regular tar lacks the bulk, and offense to stay in tier 3. A majority of teams have no issues fighting it. It’s a pretty easy mon to handle if you have standard mons like lando, kart, fini, etc.

MajorBowman: haters :( I still think Tyranitar is super good and even though it can’t take advantage of gengar anymore it has super positive matchups against a lot of common Pokemon, Charizard being the most notable. It has way more flexibility than people give it credit for too, there are a ton of different sets that can work based on what its team needs. Remain 3

SMB: yes, it hasn’t got a lot of usage recently and it has many bad matchups vs good mons, special or mixed sets are ok and probably are the best options for this but anyways it lacks the power to remain in tier 3

talkingtree: my nom

Milotic 4 -> 5

votes

Croven: No, I think it’s worth keeping at 4. Might be slightly biased due to my own ridiculous double intimidate usage, but milo can always be a good deterrent against common intimidators. Icy wind and other support keep it from being TOO deadweight in other matchups as well. Stay in 4

Demantoid: No, I could see it moving down because of how passive it is and water not being a great defensive typing, but I think the pressure Competitive provides keeps it relevant even if it isn’t doing its own damage.

emforbes: No, I think milo still deserves some respect that doesn’t put it in the same tier as togekiss. 4’ sounds better to me, tier 5 states that it contains “many pokemon that often struggle to find matchups and situations where they thrive”, when in reality i’d say milo is enabled pretty easily in a 6v6 meta with intimidate on almost all teams. Koko, bulu, and kart are all dangerous but can be dealt with intimidate, and terrain control. 100% a worse mon post gengar ban though.

MajorBowman: I think Milotic is still fine in 4 but if I see another coil hypnosis set I’m deleting DOU from existence. A lot of Pokemon or just teams in general really appreciate Icy Wind + Competitive and something with such a positive matchup against Broken Incineroar is bound to be useful.

SMB: no, it’s harder to fit on teams because of kartana and koko being so popular and because it can be a bit passive if it doesn’t get spa boosts but it’s still the best competitive/defiant mon on the tier and can provide speed control so it’s going to do something almost every game, keep in 4

talkingtree: my nom

Tornadus 4 -> 5

votes

Croven: Yes, I think emforbes hit the nail on the head for this one. Still a decent threat to heavy intimidate teams, but its simply not that great right now. Agree w emilio, dont have too much to add. Drop to 5

Demantoid: Yes, in addition to what others said Koko continuing to rise in popularity is very bad for it.

emforbes: Yes, a lot of gengar teams ran no flying resist, coupled with incin and maybe a lando too. Torn thrived against these teams for obvious reasons, but now that gengar is gone it’s generally a worse pick for a team. Mane losing popularity is also a detriment for torn, compared to milo it’s too frail to get enough usage out of defiant that would keep it in tier 4.

MajorBowman: Agree with emforbes, Tornadus is still alright but the teams it was exceptional against just aren’t being used anymore for various reasons. 5 is fine

SMB: yes, i've been using tornadus a few times lately and I haven't liked how it performed, it's so frail that it's not going to set up tw more than once and even if flying is a good stab you aren't going to throw more than 1 attack due to its poor bulk. It has some cool techs like king's rock fling that can work on teams focused on set up and it's a great partner for zygarde, but again, same issue, you are not going to set up tw or attack more than once, drop this.

talkingtree: my nom

Togekiss 5 -> UR

votes

Croven: Abstain, literally never seen it used so can’t say. In theory I think it’s got enough options to be a solid 5 but I just haven’t seen it used at all.

Demantoid: No, I’ve used Togekiss a decent amount and it often surprises me how much it’s able to do. It has a lot more niche support options than other redirectors and very high bulk. Its defensive typing isn’t the best but it’s still able to ev to survive a Megagross or Tapu Koko attack.

emforbes: No, I kind of think it should be 5’, being a ground immunity that resists kart without smart strike makes it a viable azu/setup partner. Serene grace air slash, encore, helping hand, and tailwind are actually good options for a redirector.

MajorBowman: Abstain, I haven’t really seen or used Togekiss much recently and even though I think it’s probably a solid pick on some teams I can’t really give any answer that isn’t just speculative

SMB: no, i agree it doesn't get too much usage but the role compression it provides can make it work on teams that need speed control and redirection, which is something only volcarona and togekiss can do

talkingtree: my nom

Mega Venusaur UR -> 5

votes

Croven: Yes lol I think venu is even better than 5 after my usage of it and seeing others catch on as well. Fantastic bulky mon that covers a lot of the metagame, and can be a solid lategame wincon since its usual checks (lele, kyub in particular) get worn down fairly easily. Definite raise to 5, potentially higher in future

Demantoid: Yes, good defensive answer to a lot of common mons.

emforbes: Definitely, I think tree was spot on with his reasoning. I could see mega venu rising even higher in the future, it showed a lot of promise in spl.

MajorBowman: Agree with everyone else here, Venusaur has some pretty solid matchups and a decent number of popular pokemon struggle to deal with it without being stalled out or outright KOed.

SMB: yes, it can be really difficult to deal with for some teams because psychic and flying type moves are hard to fit sometimes, being immune to toxic is excellent for it as well. Sleep powder venu is a really good set for more offensive oriented teams as well since koko/fini and grass types can't really switch into venu. I could see this rising to 4 in the future.

talkingtree: my nom

Results
Tapu Koko 2 -> 1
Mega Manectric 2 -> 3
Tyranitar 3 -> 4
Tornadus 4 -> 5
Mega Venusaur UR -> 5

 

[fespy]

Pheromosa UR -> 5

Pheromosa has historically seen little to no usage, but recent meta shifts have opened up a spot for it on the VR. It's one of the only mons that can offensively threaten most late-game bulky wincons (Mega Lati, Cress, Chansey) without setting up, and its ability to run several different sets makes it scary to face. Z-fight (which can be run as physical or special), stab u-turn, and an ice beam strong enough to ohko bulky lando form an amazing offensive movepool, which can be rounded out by protect, poison jab, bug buzz for kartana, or even taunt. While fight/bug/ice is most common, it also gets access to quiver dance, rapid spin, icy wind, quick guard, and speed swap for cheesier strats. Z fight phero paired with taunt lele has great offensive synergy and is very effective at preventing TR from going up, making it a solid hyper-offense core.

Phero won its only SPL match, where it did Phero things and nuked a Mega Scizor with z-focus blast turn one to pave the way for a psyspam cleanup.

 

[DaWoblefet]

Deoxys-Attack 3 -> 4'

While we're on the topic of hyper offensive Pokemon, I think Deoxys-A is a good candidate to move down to 4'. Deoxys' high speed and offensive stats let it dunk opposing unprepared teams, but it suffers in that it requires Terrain for its damage output and has glaring weaknesses with both of its best sets, Focus Sash and Z-move. Without a Focus Sash, Deoxys is rarely able to stomach an additional hit, but without a Z-move, Deoxys is unable to break through different threats such as Incineroar, Tapu Fini in Misty Terrain, and Metagross. If Deoxys is not threatening an OHKO, it becomes completely deadweight; as a result of this, Deoxys must often be lead, as it becomes much less potent should the opponent get any kind of advantage with Speed control. The Deoxys player must also often make reads, which while not necessarily being a huge weakness, is telling; a lack of access to spread moves means Protect + attack with the other guy must always be on the mind of the Deoxys player.

But none of that is my main argument for Deoxys moving down. More importantly, I think Deoxys best fits the description of 4', particularly the "specific team style" remark. When's the last time you saw Deoxys on a team without Lele, or for that matter without a bunch of other hyper offensive Pokemon? Its raw power doesn't seem to justify its place in a tier like 3, where you could see Pokemon like Lele, Mega Manectric, or Chansey that can function on a variety of different squads. It undeniably boasts raw power, but aside from this Croven/qsns fling of hyper offense, I haven't seen Deoxys be used often at all, much less on any non-hyper offense squads. I don't think to myself when building "hey Deoxys fixes these flaws, let me add it"; instead, I would be starting with Deoxys and developing my team around it, which seems more in line with tier 4'.

 

[Test Bots]

Amoonguss 2-->3

At the moment, I just can't seem to see how Amoonguss is "generally strong" and "easily be placed in variety of teams". Without a doubt, it's the most effective or rather the only re-director in the meta, but I truly find it to be "dead weight in many matchups". Fini / Koko shuts down its much needed Spore, Zard and Kyube OHKOs it, Zap and Genesect got Fire coverage, and Offensive Grass and Steel types simply ignore it. Not to mention, Mence and strong Psychics still seems to be around, just not as often. In my opinion, Amoonguss is really a mon that is used to check "a certain team style" (Ex. Trick Room and Rain), and Tier 3 seems like a good place for it.

Zeraora 4-->3

Tier 4 seems to be a spot for mons that one can't simply slap onto a team because they are "simply less effective". However, Zeraora is pretty slappable. As the fastest Fake Out user in the meta, it can deny Incineroar's Fake Out. And with predictable Electric coverage (Koko / Zap / Kyube / Manectric / etc.) in most teams, it pretty effective in switching in for mons like Zard, Volc, and Fini. Strategy Dex don't mention Knock Off or Electroweb, but those are quite effective as well. One last thing I want to mention is that it is probably the only Electric type that can put a dent on mons like Chansey and (AV) Kyube; a combination of Knock Off and Close Combat is pretty neat.

 

[Jrenner]

Amoonguss 2-->3

At the moment, I just can't seem to see how Amoonguss is "generally strong" and "easily be placed in variety of teams". Without a doubt, it's the most effective or rather the only re-director in the meta, but I truly find it to be "dead weight in many matchups". Fini / Koko shuts down its much needed Spore, Zard and Kyube OHKOs it, Zap and Genesect got Fire coverage, and Offensive Grass and Steel types simply ignore it. Not to mention, Mence and strong Psychics still seems to be around, just not as often. In my opinion, Amoonguss is really a mon that is used to check "a certain team style" (Ex. Trick Room and Rain), and Tier 3 seems like a good place for it.

Zeraora 4-->3

Tier 4 seems to be a spot for mons that one can't simply slap onto a team because they are "simply less effective". However, Zeraora is pretty slappable. As the fastest Fake Out user in the meta, it can deny Incineroar's Fake Out. And with predictable Electric coverage (Koko / Zap / Kyube / Manectric / etc.) in most teams, it pretty effective in switching in for mons like Zard, Volc, and Fini. Strategy Dex don't mention Knock Off or Electroweb, but those are quite effective as well. One last thing I want to mention is that it is probably the only Electric type that can put a dent on mons like Chansey and (AV) Kyube; a combination of Knock Off and Close Combat is pretty neat.

Think we should wait till after marsh suspect to deal with amoon, on the off chance it does get freed its use will be way up... and way more needed on a lot of teams.
As for zera do you have any replays? I very rarely see it and when I do it's not super hard to stop.

 

[Qwello Lee]

So, snooping around the forums I recently stumbled upon this post and, being a sucker for stats, I found the idea extremely intriguing. If you want to get a clearer picture I suggest you take a look at it, but for those who want a tl;dr it’s an analysis of the correlation (or lack thereof) between ladder usage and placement in the Viability Rankings. As I said, it seemed like a very interesting concept, so I decided to run a similar analysis using data from our ladder.

I got the usage data from here (I chose to only analyze the highest part of the ladder because I refuse to use a dataset that has shedinja at 30th in usage) and assigned each viability tier a value (Tier 1 = 1.0, Tier 2 = 2.0 and so on). This is the result I got:

Hide

To get a quantitavive measurement of the correlation between usage and viability I then used Spearman’s correlation formula and got a correlation coefficient of -0.6349162, not too low but not high enough to be particularly significant. The only interesting thing is that Tapu Lele’s ladder usage is incredibly high, much higher than all Tier 2 mons and some Tier 1s.

I was somewhat disappointed by this result, as in the post I have taken as inspiration usage on the ladder and placement on the VR seemed to have a much stronger correlation. I blamed this on the lower competitiveness of the DOU ladder and the lower number of battles, which meant that someone using an unranked gimmicky pokemon (read: smeargle, whimsicott) in a large number of games could skew the data a bit.

So I decided to try and see if data from a more competitive environment would yield a higher correlation: I ran the same test using the SPL X stats taken from here and got the following results:

Hide

This time the Spearman test gave much better results: a Rho coefficient of -0.8911453, which gives us a very good r-squared value of 0.79. In other words, ~79% of the variance in viability rank can be explained by tournament usage, which is a pretty strong correlation.

I also tried to see if the residuals (the difference between the viability tier predicted by the model and the actual placement on the VR) added something interesting, but that wasn’t the case, the only thing they showed were that a lot of tier 2 mons were used a lot less than their viability would suggest.

Now, the analysis could be improved in a number of ways: the data I used grouped forms together, which influences the usage for some mons (ttar and venu come to mind) and removing top dog (and cat) could make the linear model better, as they are significant outliers, so I might run some new tests when I have more free time.

That being said I'd like to support Test Bots amoonguss nom: it has its useful niche but it's shut down by too many things and fits the description of tier 3 a lot better. Also, it's interesting that the data supports this, with amoonguss seeing less usage than all other tier 2s and most tier 3s.

tl;dr: stats are cool, drop amoonguss

 

[talkingtree]

Shift time! Both the regular votes and the low-tier sweep are below.

Pheromosa UR -> 5

votes

Croven: Yeah, its value in games can be very volatile (see my past seasonal set vs emilio lol) but it’s a good hyper offensive threat with fantastic coverage and an absolute nuke of a Z. Strong stab U-Turn is pretty solid too. 5 for sure

Demantoid: I think 5’ is better for now. Not very splashable and usually appreciates some form of support.

emforbes: Gonna go with 5’ for now, I agree with tree and demantoid about how it pretty much needs to have specific partners (lele etc).

MajorBowman: no, just seems like a worse deoxys that happens to have uturn. Maybe once I see it more than once, but no for now.

SMB: abstain, I’ve only seen 1 game where it was used and I’ve never tried it myself

talkingtree: 5’ is good for now, it only really belongs on HO. When I found out that Z-Focus Blast OHKOed Mega Metagross I became a believer, definitely a threat and unlike Deo-A it can pivot out of bad matchups. It’s not super flexible and some threats do outright wall it though, so wouldn’t say it belongs any higher.

Deoxys-A 3 -> 4’

votes

Croven: I’m going to stick with 3 for now, people have been underusing this for sure and it’s still a serious threat to anyone lacking enough psychic resists. Usable on enough offensive builds where I’d say keep it in 3.

Demantoid: Abstain. Hyper offensive mons are dumb

emforbes: Yes, deo only really excels on psyspam/offense, which is the only team style it’s ever seen on. I think tier 4’ basically nails where deo’s place in the meta is at the moment.

MajorBowman: Yes, powerful threat but only for 1 turn under the right circumstances. Dropping to 4’ is fine

SMB: This is too much of an offensive threat to be tier 4 but tier 4’ description fits quite well with what it does. Honestly both options should be fine but I’m leaning more towards keeping it in tier 3.

talkingtree: Yes, I feel like 4’ fits Deo-A quite well. It’s obviously a huge threat, but it doesn’t fit on a ton of teams and seems to either perform amazingly or do absolutely nothing.

Amoonguss 2 -> 3

votes

Croven: Ehh yeah I’m on board with this now. Played with amoong a bit more and it just has less utility than ever. There are better grasses out there, spore is pretty bad rn, and its redirection isn’t as useful as it once was. Drop to 3

Demantoid: Yes, same reasoning as last slate. Almost everything besides Kartana and Koko carries something that hits Amoonguss hard. It also has to choose between having good special or physical bulk. In my experience it also has much lower usage than the rest of 2.

emforbes: My mind hasn’t changed either, I still think amoon should be tier 3. SPL meta trends haven’t exactly made it better either. More goth, venu, volc, etc.

MajorBowman: Remain 2 - I have no reason to believe Amoonguss should be anything lower than 2. Incredible support with Rage Powder and Spore, incredible pivot with great bulk and Regenerator, and one of the best checks to 3 of the 4 tapus, all at the same time.

SMB: tier 2, checks really well a lot of stuff (rain, trick room and set up mons with either foul play or clear smog) for it to be tier 3. Sleep and redirection are not as powerful as before but i don’t think this should drop yet.

talkingtree: Tough to say on this one. Most everything I said last time still rings true, but I’ve found that the truly bulky setup mons don’t need redirection at all and the more offensive/frail setup users would often prefer a more offensive redirector like Volcarona. Amoonguss feels like the worst mon in 2 or the best in 3; willing to drop it down to 3 for now but I wouldn’t be surprised to see it rise back again.

Zeraora 4 -> 3

votes

Croven: No lol this thing just isn’t that good. It’s like off brand Manectric and Mane isnt even that good to begin with. It can be useful on some teams and there’s some experimenting to be done with sets but I havent seen anything from this that tells me its worthy of 3

Demantoid: No. I’ve used this more recently, but high speed and Fake Out are really its only positive traits. It also has to choose between damage and utility for its moveset and how weak or frail it is with its.

emforbes: Nope, tier 4 is perfectly fine. Honestly I could see this dropping to 5, nothing crazy new from this mon that has impressed me at all.

MajorBowman: Agree with everyone here, not worthy of 3 and maybe not even worthy of 4. It does an ok job at being a fast pivot with Snarl but that’s all it does and that’s not even an essential role

SMB: no, I don’t even think this is tier 4 lol. Fast fake out and snarl are the only positive things it has, sometimes depending on the moveset is not even a cm fini check which is really bad. I think offensive sets might have potential but i haven’t seen any use of this outside of ladder so yeah, my vote is 5.

talkingtree: Croven said it better than I could, stay 4

Low-Tier Sweep

Changes:
Pheromosa UR -> 5'
Deoxys-A 3 -> 4'
Amoonguss 2 -> 3
Hoopa-U 4' -> 5'
Kommo-o 5' -> 4'
Ludicolo 5' -> 4'
Milotic 4 -> 5
Venusaur-Mega 5 -> 4
Victini 4 -> 5

 

[Jrenner]

Staraptor UR-> 4' or 5
Staraptor can actually do incredibly well on a pretty big varaiety of teams, especially very offensive teams.
Main selling point is obviously that it's a decently fast mon with intimidate, and u-turn. It also has good offensive stats, and can OHKO Bulu, and generally lele (depends on how much atk investment). Also has final gambit, and is faster than most scarfers, which allows it to outspeed and OHKO scarf gene, although it would need to sacrifice itself to do so. It also has access to great support moves, like close combat,allowing it to take on tyranitar, and a lot of other things most flying types can't handle. Sorry this post is a bit all over the place just think it's defiantly good enough to be ranked.

 

[Test Bots]

Staraptor UR-> 4' or 5
Staraptor can actually do incredibly well on a pretty big varaiety of teams, especially very offensive teams.
Main selling point is obviously that it's a decently fast mon with intimidate, and u-turn. It also has good offensive stats, and can OHKO Bulu, and generally lele (depends on how much atk investment). Also has final gambit, and is faster than most scarfers, which allows it to outspeed and OHKO scarf gene, although it would need to sacrifice itself to do so. It also has access to great support moves, like close combat,allowing it to take on tyranitar, and a lot of other things most flying types can't handle. Sorry this post is a bit all over the place just think it's defiantly good enough to be ranked.

I thought about using Scarf Staraptor for Marsh, but Lando generally does everything even better. It can also beat Bulu with Sludge Bomb. Suicide Gambit is meh, even on Victini.

 

[Human]

Mega Heracross for Tier 4'
I've been using it a decent bit in the seasonal now, and theoried it out quite a bit for SPL too despite not getting to bring it. Current metagame is in a rather slow place, and Mega Heracross with its coverage and ridiculous damage, along with being able to be paired as either TR, Semi-Room or Tailwind, has a lot of ways to start clearing the board, and using its typing to wall things out. It has a big trade off because it doesn't manage to cleanly OHKO Tapu Fini often with Bullet Seed, and using Close Combat leaves you a bit more vulnerable to getting KO'd in return, but overall it's been a very strong Pokemon that I've enjoyed a lot.

 

[Jrenner]

Mega Heracross for Tier 4'
I've been using it a decent bit in the seasonal now, and theoried it out quite a bit for SPL too despite not getting to bring it. Current metagame is in a rather slow place, and Mega Heracross with its coverage and ridiculous damage, along with being able to be paired as either TR, Semi-Room or Tailwind, has a lot of ways to start clearing the board, and using its typing to wall things out. It has a big trade off because it doesn't manage to cleanly OHKO Tapu Fini often with Bullet Seed, and using Close Combat leaves you a bit more vulnerable to getting KO'd in return, but overall it's been a very strong Pokemon that I've enjoyed a lot.

Can you post some replays? I've seen it a few times, usually doesn't put too much work in.

 

[Amaranth]

Can you post some replays? I've seen it a few times, usually doesn't put too much work in.

the seasonal games he mentioned:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-881495855https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-881509149https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-883107290https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-883116452https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-883129132

 

[GenOne]

Mega Heracross for Tier 4'
I've been using it a decent bit in the seasonal now, and theoried it out quite a bit for SPL too despite not getting to bring it. Current metagame is in a rather slow place, and Mega Heracross with its coverage and ridiculous damage, along with being able to be paired as either TR, Semi-Room or Tailwind, has a lot of ways to start clearing the board, and using its typing to wall things out. It has a big trade off because it doesn't manage to cleanly OHKO Tapu Fini often with Bullet Seed, and using Close Combat leaves you a bit more vulnerable to getting KO'd in return, but overall it's been a very strong Pokemon that I've enjoyed a lot.

I gave Heracross a shot recently after seeing this post, and noticed a few other people tinkering with it as well. The team I used is posted here, along with some replays of it in action.

I think Tier 4' is too aggressive of a nom but would support it going to Tier 5'. It's worth further exploration and Human's success with it proves it's not just a theorymon.

This is a Pokemon that can be a powerful breaker but seems to require really heavy support to do anything useful.

Access to Fighting STAB + Grass and Rock coverage is pretty nice offensively, because it can hit would-be walls like Tapu Fini and Zapdos for super-effective damage. However, I don't think Mega Heracross is as threatening as Tier 4' breakers like Mega Camerupt; as a physical attacker, Intimidate can quickly hamper Heracross's progress, and Heracross doesn't find that many opportunities in a match where it's safe to switch in.

Defensively, Mega Heracross is decently bulky (being able to take two Fini Moonblasts if ev'd, for example) but most strong attacks or SE attacks are still a 2HKO, so Heracross feels pretty awkward to position in a lot of matches. Like Human said too, it doesn't help that its main STAB attack, Close Combat, drops its defensive stats :/

That said, Mega Heracross makes for a mean lategame cleaner against bulkier walls like Chansey or weakened Tapu Finis, and when you do manage to get it into position it definitely puts in work! Tier 5' seems worthwhile.

 

[Jrenner]

Hitmontop UR -> 5'
This nom was made quite a few times a few months back, but never got a rank, but now we have tier 5', and hitmontop fits that definition perfectly. Hitmontop is one the best support mons IMO, and defiantly the best spinner, which is very important with how common stealth rocks are right now. Along with rapid spin, hitmontop also has fake out, helping hand, wide guard, as well as a great attacking move in close combat. these attributes combined with decent defenses and somewhat decent atk, and intimidate makes it a solid mon, and it defiantly deserves a rank.