Resource USUM Doubles OU Viability Rankings (Updated 6/27 on post #238)

Tsareena DUU- tier 3/2 of DOU
This girl is amazing, even in OU. Queenly majesty makes incin cry to set up mons.
Incineroar? HJK and outspeed, unless it does use Flare blitz on first turn. but since IT IS doubles, keeping it out on first turn is good since queenly majesty blocks it and hjk it while another pokemon sets up/ kill the incin
Tapu fini? Power whip/Trop kick. unless it uses Ice beam, but it doesn't matter since AV sets are the most common.
MetaGross? Mostly Negative. Can't say anything here.
Lando T? Unless Flyium Z. It's neutral.
Kartana? could kill her but she's still alive to get a hjk in.
M Menetric? Mostly negative. Oveheat and outspeeding it would be fatal.
the rest of the tapus usually neutral.
I would use her as a Incin support since queenly is almost better than Lele in priority. And since she's usually just either support/ all out assault vest attacker, her partner(s) should be able to have coverage for all her weaknesses.
Tsareena is unproven in DOU as very few (if any) replays exist to attest to its success in high-level matches, and as a physical Grass-type attacker, Tsareena faces stiff competition from Kartana, Tapu Bulu and Lurantis which all more or less outclass Tsareena. Queenly Majesty is a neat niche, but given how common Incineroar is, I feel most high level players are already adapting to Fake Out / priority moves in both their teambuilding and their playstyles.

I'm a huge advocate for UR mons -> tier 5 or higher, but Tsareena really belongs in the Creative Sets thread until someone carves out a niche for it in a competitive level match.
 

Croven

certified genius
is a defending SPL Champion

Nidoqueen UR -> 5

Used this mon in my recent invitationals match and it worked pretty well. also i've been testing it all week in ladder and roomtours and private test matches, and it's worked consistently well. extremely strong and can basically OHKO most of the meta with sludge bomb, earth power, and ice beam (that's just what i used and i think it has the best coverage overall) paired w/ sheer force LO. Speed tier isn't fantastic but its good enough, it'll outspeed most mons after an icy wind and definitely after a tailwind, and then becomes instantly extremely threatening. Bulk is good enough too, its difficult to ohko without a strong SE move (kyub, lele). Also, pairs very well with gross, the best mega in the game rn, covering electrics, fires and steels while gross checks mons like kyub and lele. Overall i'd say its a very threatening mon that definitely deserves at least 5; it exerts considerable pressure doesnt require excessive support to work properly and yeah its good.

edit: qsns is a bitch but queen was his stupid idea that actually turned out to be good so guess i gotta give him credit
 
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talkingtree

A VSCO girl, but also a camboy
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Doubles Captain

Nidoqueen UR -> 5

Used this mon in my recent invitationals match and it worked pretty well. also i've been testing it all week in ladder and roomtours and private test matches, and it's worked consistently well. extremely strong and can basically OHKO most of the meta with sludge bomb, earth power, and ice beam (that's just what i used and i think it has the best coverage overall) paired w/ sheer force LO. Speed tier isn't fantastic but its good enough, it'll outspeed most mons after an icy wind and definitely after a tailwind, and then becomes instantly extremely threatening. Bulk is good enough too, its difficult to ohko without a strong SE move (kyub, lele). Also, pairs very well with gross, the best mega in the game rn, covering electrics, fires and steels while gross checks mons like kyub and lele. Overall i'd say its a very threatening mon that definitely deserves at least 5; it exerts considerable pressure doesnt require excessive support to work properly and yeah its good.

edit: qsns is a bitch but queen was his stupid idea that actually turned out to be good so guess i gotta give him credit
This is not to turn your nomination down or even to say that I'd disagree with it, but I wanted to give you a chance to respond. What does Nidoqueen do that Landorus-I can't? Sure it has a bit more bulk, but it seems that otherwise it's weaker and slower and can't hit Zard. On top of this, Lando is already a fringe mon, so competing so closely for such a small role makes it difficult to justify.
 

Croven

certified genius
is a defending SPL Champion
This is not to turn your nomination down or even to say that I'd disagree with it, but I wanted to give you a chance to respond. What does Nidoqueen do that Landorus-I can't? Sure it has a bit more bulk, but it seems that otherwise it's weaker and slower and can't hit Zard. On top of this, Lando is already a fringe mon, so competing so closely for such a small role makes it difficult to justify.
ur right lando-i is very similar but personally there are a couple reasons i like nidoqueen over lando-i. yes lando is a lot stronger but
1) poison typing is a LOT better than flying. its a harder shutdown to mons like mane and koko, while with using lando you always have to be afraid of the hp ice that could easily threaten an ohko. poison also resists koko's other common 3rd move, dazzling gleam, while lando takes about half from that.
2) stab sludge bomb is actually significantly stronger than lando-i's sludge bomb. just using the calc spread for fini, nidoqueen has a great chance of the ohko after rocks while lando has zero chance. with fini's prevalence on literally every fat team, which these two mons are supposed to beat, being able to threaten an ohko is fantastic.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Tapu Fini: 237-281 (68.8 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Tapu Fini: 296-351 (86 - 102%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

3) double ground is like...not exactly the move but if you really need to, running queen still lets you run lando-t, the opposite of which being lando-i's biggest reason for not being used. while i can't exactly say its an optimal pairing, its an option that lando-i simply does not have.

overall, i personally like queen a lot because it utterly shuts down all electric types while almost always ohko'ing fini after just 1 round of rocks or some chip, neither of which lando-i can do quite as well. inability to hit zard is definitely an issue though, you are correct about that, but if i'm being honest here: when was the last time you saw a rock slide / stone edge lando-i? lando's already got so many moves it wants to run that it rarely actually runs the move that allows it to hit zard in the first place. anyway that was just an extra thing, but queen has impressed me a lot recently while i can never say the same about lando-i.
 
ur right lando-i is very similar but personally there are a couple reasons i like nidoqueen over lando-i. yes lando is a lot stronger but
1) poison typing is a LOT better than flying. its a harder shutdown to mons like mane and koko, while with using lando you always have to be afraid of the hp ice that could easily threaten an ohko. poison also resists koko's other common 3rd move, dazzling gleam, while lando takes about half from that.
2) stab sludge bomb is actually significantly stronger than lando-i's sludge bomb. just using the calc spread for fini, nidoqueen has a great chance of the ohko after rocks while lando has zero chance. with fini's prevalence on literally every fat team, which these two mons are supposed to beat, being able to threaten an ohko is fantastic.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Tapu Fini: 237-281 (68.8 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Tapu Fini: 296-351 (86 - 102%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

3) double ground is like...not exactly the move but if you really need to, running queen still lets you run lando-t, the opposite of which being lando-i's biggest reason for not being used. while i can't exactly say its an optimal pairing, its an option that lando-i simply does not have.

overall, i personally like queen a lot because it utterly shuts down all electric types while almost always ohko'ing fini after just 1 round of rocks or some chip, neither of which lando-i can do quite as well. inability to hit zard is definitely an issue though, you are correct about that, but if i'm being honest here: when was the last time you saw a rock slide / stone edge lando-i? lando's already got so many moves it wants to run that it rarely actually runs the move that allows it to hit zard in the first place. anyway that was just an extra thing, but queen has impressed me a lot recently while i can never say the same about lando-i.
I'd also add that Nidoqueen has a better pool of coverage moves (namely Ice Beam and Flamethrower) which, factoring in the higher BP + Sheer Force boost, are pretty much twice as strong as the HP Ices that Lando-I can throw off.
 

talkingtree

A VSCO girl, but also a camboy
is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a defending Smogon Snake Draft Champion
Doubles Captain
Shift time! But before we get to that, I'd like to welcome emforbes onto the VR council! Solid showings in multiple tournaments and some of the more innovative building make him a fantastic addition that I'm happy to have aboard.

Genesect 2 -> 1
AuraRayquaza: No its good for sure but not tier 1 level, and ive also started to see it less since gengarite was banned

Demantoid: No Genesect doesn’t have the same dominance in games or teambuilding as the everything in tier 1.

emforbes: No, the definition of tier 2 fits genesect perfectly and it hasn’t seen any upward change in games to make it tier 1.

MajorBowman: No, agree with everyone that the way Genesect is used just doesn’t lend itself to tier 1. Very solid 2 but not higher.

SMB: no, this is a top tier 2 mon, really versatile, but it doesn't dominate the metagame like the rest of tier 1 mons and I don't think it will ever do

talkingtree: I think this is towards the top of 2 but it’s not 1 material and probably never will be, just due to the way it plays.

Keldeo UR -> 5
AuraRayquaza: No this saw a use in snake because it was quite a nice counterpick but it just finds itself countered naturally by a lot of very common stuff

Demantoid: No. Don’t see it enough and loses to a lot on paper.

emforbes: No, I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen Keldeo besides my snake game and most teams can counter Keldeo solidly without even preparing for it.

MajorBowman: I honestly didn’t even know people used Keldeo. No.

SMB: no, this doesn't get usage, and that's a good thing because most teams have many ways to hard counter it (amoonguss, fini, bulu...)

talkingtree: No, while I was pleasantly surprised using it in testing for Snake, it’s so niche and hasn’t seen any widespread use.

Mega Charizard Y 3 -> 2
AuraRayquaza: Yes zard has been a top mega for a long time now and its easily top 3 probs higher. Strong matchups against every popular mega (bar latias :I) and it just puts so much pressure out on so many things.

Demantoid: No. I could see this happening though. 100 is actually a pretty nice speed tier and it hits most things pretty hard. Requires more team support than a lot of other megas though.

emforbes: No, Zard is very oppressive in its good matchups but struggles heavily if it’s checked offensively.

MajorBowman: Yes, I think zard is easily one of the top 3, probably top 2 megas right now. It does a ton of damage to basically everything and even hits its resists for big chunks. Supported correctly it can blow giant holes in team.

SMB: yes, it has the downside of needing some specific support to work properly (hazard removal, speed control and a few incineroar checks) but definitely all the offensive pressure it can put make it tier 2 worthy

talkingtree: I’m gonna give this a tentative yes, Zard compositions have been doing well recently and with the right support it’s one of the scariest mons to face.

Hitmontop UR -> 5
AuraRayquaza: No the only niche this has over scrafty is rapid spinning, trading bulk and knock off for it. Not worth it imo especially when defogging typically has higher utility.

Demantoid: No. Doesn’t offer much over Scrafty for most teams. Rapid Spin is interesting but most teams have better options for hazard removal.

emforbes: No, it’s a decent partner for Charizard but the support options and its offensive capabilities are extremely underwhelming.

MajorBowman: No, not a bad mon overall but really just has 1 niche (intimidate + fake out + spinner for zard) and is still kinda overwhelming in that role too

SMB: no, i guess the role compression is nice but 99% of times my first option would be using scrafty and run defog in any other mon than using hitmontop

talkingtree: No, I nommed this a little while back but I think this falls into the category of mons that aren’t unusable and have value in the right situation but that aren’t where they’d need to be to be ranked.

Mega Abomasnow UR -> 5
AuraRayquaza: No there is never a reason to use this over camerupt on a hard tr team and no reason to use it otherwise. Not to mention a lot off things like metagross zard and incin all give it big problems.

Demantoid: No. Has some good matchups in theory but it’s basically irrelevant right now.

emforbes: No, it sees practically 0 usage and has poor matchups against the majority of teams in the metagame.

MajorBowman: No, pretty bad matchup against a lot of common pokemon and pretty unused right now.

SMB: no, even if this is unranked it's probably the second best mega to run in full tr, but camerupt is just so much better that you are losing a lot for not using it. Also, it can't break a lot of common stuff so it can be worthless in some matchups.

talkingtree: No, it’s too hard-walled by extremely common Fire-types and it’s made almost entirely irrelevant if you face a Zard Y. If this picks up in usage I could see it being ranked but otherwise it would just move into 5 to be voted down to UR in the next low-tier sweep.

Heatran 5 -> UR
AuraRayquaza: No but just about. This mon is really bad but youll see it do stuff from time to time. It can at least manage certain team comps like zard teams a little bit.

Demantoid: No. Heatran can still be effective on the right teams.

emforbes: No, Heatran is still a solid option as a steel and fire type. Heatran also has a fair amount of a good matchups against Tier 1 and 2 pokemon.

MajorBowman: yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes

SMB: no, i think that with the right support it can work effectively, it's just it doesn't have the same defensive utility it had last gen and isn't as splashable by any means but this is still tier 5 material

talkingtree: No, this isn’t some unanimously agreed upon as trash mon at this point. I’d need to see some pretty clear reasons why it no longer deserves to be on the VR to consider voting UR; Heatran enthusiasts have found ways to make it work pretty well.

Mega Latias UR -> 5
AuraRayquaza: Yes :( This mon is really easy to support in terms of offensive coverage (ground moves do pretty much everything) and at that point it can be really hard to stop with a cm. Can be deadweight at times with low initial damage output and constant pressure can force it just to keep recovering but it has a fair number of good mus.

Demantoid: Yes. Good speed tier and high bulk lets it easily set up. Typing lets it down but still decent.

emforbes: I completely agree with what Demantoid said. Mega Latias also has a fantastic matchup against high tier pokemon like Kartana, Zygarde, Lando T, and Zapdos to name few.

MajorBowman: Absolutely, surprised it wasn’t ranked already. Even though it has exactly 1 set it’s a pretty good set that can checkmate games when its 1 or 2 major checks have been removed

SMB: yes, it can be really threatening after 1 cm boost and it's a good check to a lot of common mons

talkingtree: my nom, could see this going higher eventually

Nidoqueen UR -> 5
AuraRayquaza: Yes with tw support this mon is horrible to face. Amazing coverage and good bulk let it chunk loads of teams for loads of damage.

Demantoid: No. I’d like to see this be used more before ranking it.

emforbes: Yes, insane coverage against the majority of teams and fair bulk to back it up. I think stealth rock and tailwind/icy wind support is what really lets this mon shine.

MajorBowman: No for now. I watched the game where Croven expertly wielded the queen and I think it has potential, but I also think we need more than one game to rank it. Could definitely see it happening in the future though

SMB: ehh i'm going to say no for now, i'd rather see more of this before ranking it but definitely has potential

talkingtree: Yes, Croven convinced me. Go read his posts if you want to know why I’m voting yes.
Note: I left Heatran off this lower-tier slate since it was getting written responses in the full slate of votes.

Shifts:
Mega Charizard Y 3 -> 2
Mega Latias UR -> 5
Mega Diancie 4 -> 5
Gastrodon 5 -> 4
Volcarona 4 -> 5
 

PikachuVincent

Banned deucer.
I wished Alolan Raichu would be ranked. It's a good Pokemon and I still use it today. But 1 part of it is people hate me for using it. They tell me to use other pokemon. And even Togemaru and RAICHU-K! I hate both of them not as competivly. But actual Pokemon down to their flesh and bones.
....Here are my reasons why Raichu-A should be ranked at like 4/5... My God I hate VGC smogon chat. They hate me for liking what I like as a good partner composition.
-Good With Koko
-Good with lele but not as much
-it's unreachable speed tier with KOKO
-It's exclusive Z move that always paralyzes except for ground types.
-It can run a LO set
-I has basically fastest fake out in the game with 359 speed stat with 31IV and a timid nature.
-fast encores if you want it.
- stops xern faster than incin
I won't talk about weaknesses because I know people will say tons of bad stuff about it.
 
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MajorBowman

let me live that fantasy
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Doubles Colonel
I wished Alolan Raichu would be ranked. It's a good Pokemon and I still use it today. But 1 part of it is people hate me for using it. They tell me to use other pokemon. And even Togemaru and RAICHU-K! I hate both of them not as competivly. But actual Pokemon down to their flesh and bones.
....Here are my reasons why Raichu-A should be ranked at like 4/5... My God I hate VGC smogon chat. They hate me for liking what I like as a good partner composition.
-Good With Koko
-Good with lele but not as much
-it's unreachable speed tier with KOKO
-It's exclusive Z move that always paralyzes except for ground types.
-It can run a LO set
-I has basically fastest fake out in the game with 359 speed stat with 31IV and a timid nature.
-fast encores if you want it.
- stops xern faster than incin
I won't talk about weaknesses because I know people will say tons of bad stuff about it.
This is Doubles OU, not VGC. If you're looking for VGC you can find it here https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/video-game-championships.127/
If you're wanting to nominate Alolan Raichu for tier 5 in DOU then you need more than anecdotal evidence, such as actual damage calcs or (more preferably) replays.
 

PikachuVincent

Banned deucer.
Ludicolo ur -> 5
Ludi is pretty great on rain teams, having an almost as powerful hydro vortex as kingdra (5 less base spark), and a grass typing to go with it, that makes it nice against opposing rain teams. it is much slower than most other rain attackers, but it still outspeeds almost everything in rain (478 speed in rain with modest nature btw). It's also the only swift swim user with fake out which gives it another nice niche. All in all I think it's a pretty solid mon and defiantly deserves a rank.
 
Ludicolo ur -> 5
Ludi is pretty great on rain teams, having an almost as powerful hydro vortex as kingdra (5 less base spark), and a grass typing to go with it, that makes it nice against opposing rain teams. it is much slower than most other rain attackers, but it still outspeeds almost everything in rain (478 speed in rain with modest nature btw). It's also the only swift swim user with fake out which gives it another nice niche. All in all I think it's a pretty solid mon and defiantly deserves a rank.
Ludi used to be Tier 5 but iirc it dropped because barely anyone uses it in high level play. Grass coverage is a neat niche, but Ludi is both slower and weaker than Kingdra and doesn't really fill any niches that most rain teams can't get from one of the ranked Swift Swim sweepers. Fake out access is nice on paper but you either have to drop Protect or Ice Beam for it (neither of those are ideal options) and tbh a Swift Swim sweeper should be for blowing holes in opposing teams, not for Fake Out utility. Fake Out is best used on bulkier utility mons like Incineroar, Scrafty, Mew, etc.

Just my two cents tho. Ludi can be good, it's just not VR worthy imo
 
Ludi used to be Tier 5 but iirc it dropped because barely anyone uses it in high level play. Grass coverage is a neat niche, but Ludi is both slower and weaker than Kingdra and doesn't really fill any niches that most rain teams can't get from one of the ranked Swift Swim sweepers. Fake out access is nice on paper but you either have to drop Protect or Ice Beam for it (neither of those are ideal options) and tbh a Swift Swim sweeper should be for blowing holes in opposing teams, not for Fake Out utility. Fake Out is best used on bulkier utility mons like Incineroar, Scrafty, Mew, etc.

Just my two cents tho. Ludi can be good, it's just not VR worthy imo
I agree with GenOne and would like to add in that Ludi does what Kingdra + a good Grass team mate can do together in one slot but that's only on paper. Kingdra with a team mate allows you to do what Ludi can do but with two options at once, as well as the better utility that a Mon like Bulu or Amoonguss can provide. He's good at 4v4 where that Fake Out can get you going but that's a faster paced meta game where you are not expected to play a potential long haul. He also doesn't have that safe spread damage of Muddy Water, which also lowers Accuracy allowing you to bullshit someone rather often (chances yeah, but still a point overall). He looks good on paper but is lacking the power to really put that all to use. He's not a shit Pokemon he's just not keeping up imo
 

n1n1

the real n1n1
is a Tiering Contributor
Stakataka --> tier 4
Its not a premier TR setter like Diancie or P2, thats because its power is weakened too much by intimidate and because it has two 4x weakness.

Deoxys-A --> tier 4
This mon dies so much from what I have seen. Stealth rocks have become so common that this mon has stopped running sash and from my observations, its really bad without the sash set

Mew --> tier 3
one of the most splashable mons that can fill almost any niche you need on your team. the Tier4 description does not fit mew

Porygon2 --> tier 3
The most reliable TR setter. Its really good at not dieing thanks to great bulk and recover. the attacks can be very strong thanks to its ability. also Ice+Electric coverage is fantastic

Tornadus --> UR
its bad. I feel like doubles had a phase of enjoying this mon for some reason. I'm pretty sure that time is over by now

Araquanid --> tier 4
this mon has seen great success as a speed controler and a wide guard support. Its bulk and Strength are very good

Cresselia --> tier 4
I have seen this mon increase in usage and with good results. It has a nifty move pool including icy wind

Lurantis --> tier 4 --> tier 3
This is the premier TR attacker. So good, its so good at killing stuff in TR
 
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Ferrothorn: 3 -> 4:

With Incineroar being everywhere, zard-y being one of the best megas, along with better x4 Fire weak options in the names of kartana, gensect, and arguably even mega scizor, it’s really hard to justify putting this Pokémon on any team, not to mention kartana and flamethrower genesect just outright beat ferrothorn. Sure it’s a wincon if you’re unprepared for it, but so is terracott, and frankly it’s harder to find a team that isn’t automatically prepared for ferrothorn right now.

Also I can’t believe I’m about to make this nom but

Togedemaru (level 1-4): UR -> Tier 5

It had a solid run in the invitational, used by 2 different players, and in the finals Croven actually had to prep for it. What it does is obvious; fake out to help set up tr and then spam endeavor while your partner uses a spread move to try to finish both your opponents at the same time. Stealth rock hurts it somewhat because you lose sturdy upon switching but if tr is up you’re probably moving first and healing up with shell bell anyways.
 
I will give a couple bad ones. (Sorry)

Kartana 2 -> 1

How in the world can anyone suggest a physical mon with paper thin spd be one of the best mons in a meta with like 5 really good intimidates? The truth is this should be considered. Kartana has a monopoly on the role of offensive tailwind. It can find a role on any non full room team bc of its unmatched ability to threaten the bulky meta and obtain speed control. When building teams i believe most people have to ask "does kart eat me?" That is a sign of one of the best mons in the meta. It serves as a rain check and has a phenomenal amount of resistance (all tapu types) that makes it deceptively bulky. Kart can fufill roles on psyspam, standard, rain, and even semi room teams due to its unique qualities above (offensive tw, ability to threaten bulky builds namely incin and fini, and great mu's due to resistance).

M-Gross1 -> 2

I just think this needs looked at. We all know the big chunk of steel is a rock. He unglamorously fufills his part as a bulky steel in every mu and can be quite threatening due to power of his coverage. The quelm is that idk if M-gross can be seen as the definitive best mega in the game. The opportunity cost of using a mega-man or char y or latias m may not be worth using up a team slot for M-gross. M-gross is a phenomenal mon in the metagame ofc, but its been a while. Is he still 1 material?
 
I will give a couple bad ones. (Sorry)

Kartana 2 -> 1

How in the world can anyone suggest a physical mon with paper thin spd be one of the best mons in a meta with like 5 really good intimidates? The truth is this should be considered. Kartana has a monopoly on the role of offensive tailwind. It can find a role on any non full room team bc of its unmatched ability to threaten the bulky meta and obtain speed control. When building teams i believe most people have to ask "does kart eat me?" That is a sign of one of the best mons in the meta. It serves as a rain check and has a phenomenal amount of resistance (all tapu types) that makes it deceptively bulky. Kart can fufill roles on psyspam, standard, rain, and even semi room teams due to its unique qualities above (offensive tw, ability to threaten bulky builds namely incin and fini, and great mu's due to resistance).

M-Gross1 -> 2

I just think this needs looked at. We all know the big chunk of steel is a rock. He unglamorously fufills his part as a bulky steel in every mu and can be quite threatening due to power of his coverage. The quelm is that idk if M-gross can be seen as the definitive best mega in the game. The opportunity cost of using a mega-man or char y or latias m may not be worth using up a team slot for M-gross. M-gross is a phenomenal mon in the metagame ofc, but its been a while. Is he still 1 material?
The only thing that's really changed since m-gar was banned is manetric became a much better mega... and it's by far the best physical attacker due to clear body before mega so it can possibly outplay intimidates and attack at full power, I'll agree with kart tho
 
Ludi used to be Tier 5 but iirc it dropped because barely anyone uses it in high level play. Grass coverage is a neat niche, but Ludi is both slower and weaker than Kingdra and doesn't really fill any niches that most rain teams can't get from one of the ranked Swift Swim sweepers. Fake out access is nice on paper but you either have to drop Protect or Ice Beam for it (neither of those are ideal options) and tbh a Swift Swim sweeper should be for blowing holes in opposing teams, not for Fake Out utility. Fake Out is best used on bulkier utility mons like Incineroar, Scrafty, Mew, etc.

Just my two cents tho. Ludi can be good, it's just not VR worthy imo
Ever since mence fell off of the table, ice beam has been pretty droppable IMO
 

MajorBowman

let me live that fantasy
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Tapu Koko 2 -> 1
Now that Gengar is gone and Koko doesn't have to worry about speed tying and instantly dying, it has close to free reign as far as choosing what it wants to do on any given turn. Only a few Pokemon outspeed it (Mega Manectric, Zeraora, Deoxys-A), while only one of them actually threatens it (Deoxys-A). The other two just kinda snarl it or pivot on it without threatening much damage. Electric is a really good offensive typing in a meta where Zard and Fini are really good, and Koko's speed and ability to run a few different sets well (Z, LO, Specs, specs/Z bluff with Magnet, AV) pushes it over the top imo.

Ferrothorn 3 -> 4
Echoing MyRandomThoughts' post above, Ferrothorn continues to be hurt by the prevalence of both Fire types (like Zard, Incineroar) and Pokemon 4x weak to Fire that necessitate Fire coverage on teams (Genesect, Kartana, Scizor). Ferrothorn also directly competes with Kartana for a team slot and is ostensibly worse at pulling off the offensive grass/steel role while the defensive leech seed role just isn't very good. Honestly I don't remember the last time I've even seen a Ferrothorn in a tournament game lol.

Mega Charizard Y 2 -> 1
A little bold considering the prevalence of Stealth Rock these days, but I think Zard teams have evolved to both handle Rocks pretty well (most of them carrying defog/spin) and take care of the Pokemon that can take hits from Charizard like Incineroar, Tyranitar, Fini, etc. If Charizard has the speed advantage and a free turn or two, you're probably losing 2 or 3 Pokemon. Heat Wave hits like a truck and Overheat is a great nuke, and either can combine with Helping Hand to blow holes in teams. Kartana and Genesect rising up the charts is great for Charizard since they're both great partners for Zard but also great bait for Zard since neither can damage it significantly and Zard roasts them both with ease. I think Zard is easily a top 2 mega with Metagross post-Gengar, so Tier 1 seems like a fair spot to me.

Mega Salamence 4 -> 3
Ok I'll admit I'm a Mence fanboy but frankly 4 is ridiculous, it's still a great mega that can run multiple sets well (mixed roost, mixed tailwind, DD, full special) and 4 is way too low. I'd put it in 2 personally but I'd probably get roasted if I nominated to 2 right away so at least let him back into 3 :(
 
>>Tier 2<<
Pokemon that are generally strong and can easily be placed on a variety of teams, but don't have the same level of prowess as the threats in Tier 1.


Mega Charizard-Y --> stay in tier 2

Zard-y teams are strong, but I don't think zard should be tier 1 for two main reasons. First, I don't think Zard carries its teams enough to be tier 1. In tier 1 we see mons like Landorus, Incin, Fini, mons that can be on almost any team in the game, regardless of any of the other pokemon. Metagross fits onto almost any core and is one of the most broken Megas in the game. Charizard doesn't reach that level of prominence. Charizard teams are strong, yes (I've played pretty much only one team since snake and it's a zard team), but that's what they are. They're charizard teams. Charizard does the vast majority of the work in those games, and if it doesn't, I lose. I think the fact that charizard has to so much be *built around* means that it ought not be tier 1.


Tapu Bulu --> tier 3
Bulu is outclassed by other grass types and generally makes your team pretty weak. It hung on to top tier relevance due to the threat of scarf bulu + Gengar, but I think with Gengar gone that bulu is going to decline in usability greatly. The mon is just worse than kartana and amoonguss, and with koko coming back into relevance, isn't needed as much to check fini. Let bulu go to tier 3, where it belongs.

Tapu Koko --> stay in tier 2
Not super convinced on this one, but I think that Koko just isn't as good as the other tier 1 mons. Would like to wait on noms to tier 1 until after koko shows its strength in SPL


Zygarde --> tier 1
Zygarde is an effective offensive replacement to landorus on many teams. Currently landorus is mostly used as a bulky pivot, using berry and stealth rocks and u-turn to facilitate intimidate shuffling, and sometimes it does damage with earth power. While those are all strengths big enough to make lando tier 1, Zygarde provides the offensive ground damage that a lot of teams would like, without the harm of side eq. Zygarde's band set has been getting a lot of traction, especially with that team that Stax made to go 40-0 in dlt. I think that Zygarde, while it doesn't have all the supporting tools, is a top tier threat that fits on a lot of teams, as incineroar can often fill the intimidate slot sufficiently, leaving zygarde to do the damage.

>>Tier 3<<
Pokemon that are generally strong, but can be dead weight in some matchups, don't have great matchups vs a lot of Tier 1 and 2, or are only particularly useful for checking a certain team style.

Aegislash --> tier 4 or lower
Sord sucks right now I know you guys know this everybody knows this. Earth power, incineroar, and z moves have all combined to make this pokemon that was a defensive and offensive wall, merely a slow, high damage mon that doesn't even work under trick room. Gengar leaving makes aegislash a bit stronger potentially, but I don't think it should have been tier 3 in the first place.

Ferrothorn --> tier 4
Ferrothorn sucks and is not generally strong, the other grass types (amoonguss kartana bulu) are far stronger. Ferro only really gets use on rain teams, and barely even then. Incineroar's existence makes this mon pretty much worthless. Dropping it one tier seems fair considering its usage.


Stakataka --> tier 4
Stak is not generally strong. The quad weaknesses to fighting and ground, along with the stunningly low speed and weakness to taunt leave stak high and dry a lot of the time. It only sees use on hard trick room, an archetype that is strong, but not overpowering. Considering that the pokemon that actually makes hard trick room good, camerupt, is tier 4, and stak only sees use with camerupt specifically, I think dropping it down to be buddies with camel makes sense. Stak is droppable on that team and camel is not, and stak sees no use elsewhere.


Suicune -->tier 4
If you want tailwind, run zapdos, if you want a water type, run fini. Suicune doesn't do damage and gets hurt by the fini hate that teams have to run. I rarely if ever see suicune at high level competitive play, and the role compression it offers doesn't seem like enough to have it be tier 3.

>>Tier 4<<

Pokemon which have broad applications on a variety of teams but are simply less effective than the Pokemon in the higher tiers. This also includes Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support but are still stronger than Pokemon in the tiers below.


Celesteela --> tier 5
I literally have not seen this mon once in 6 months. It suffers from the ferrothorn problem. Every team has a fire type, or an electric type, or both. While ferrothorn has the rain niche, celes does not. Is celes generally stronger than mega latias, heatran, lando-i, araquanid, lurantis and naganadel, all of which have seen recent snake success? I don't think so.

Chansey --> tier 3
Chansey's niche of being a special wall has been invaluable in testing and in tournament play. Counterplay exists to chansey to be sure: physical mons, knock off, ohko'ing the partner. However, chansey's special bulk puts a ton of pressure on opponents at all points throughout the game, and provides a wincon that almost no other pokemon in the game does right now. With gengar and its immunity to seismic toss leaving DOU, chansey only gets stronger.



Mega Salamence --> tier 4
Mence blows @bowman. With koko getting better, mega man getting better, double intimidate and/or fini on every team, I'm really not sure mence has much to go for it in the current meta. Not to be rude, but iirc your snake teams with mence on them didn't do well either, giving it not only a bad performance in usage, but a bad performance in tournament play as well.




Cresselia --> tier 4 or 3
Cress has done great in snake and is the backbone of most semi-room teams. the combination of levitate, massive bulk, and ice coverage has led to it being the TR'er of choice for teams that are slow, but not too slow. I think that fits the definition of 'This also includes Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style' for tier 4
 

miltankmilk

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I’ll agree with ezrael on a few of these. I think koko ->1 is a lot of theory monning, and not a lot of actual viability increase. It might be a tier 1 mon but there really isn’t enough we’ve seen to prove that. I agree with the drops of ferro/steela/staka/aegis for the same reasons Jon/Jake/randomthoughts have said.

I do disagree with bulu dropping. I think its value both offensively and defensively are still very good and on par with other tier 2 mons. Granting recovery to teammates, clearing the more offensive terrains of koko and lele. I disagree that it was clinging to tier 2 because of the scarf set + trapping, i think its a very strong mon thats easy to place on teams.

Dont have strong feelings on many of the other noms, other than it might be too soon to completely dismantle the existing VR even if we know the meta is changing quickly.
 
Most of my noms are things I wanted to say for a while; I'm just finally putting them out. It's hard to really nom things like this because I haven't played much since snake, and some of these are definitely personal bias (bulu sucks). However, I think most of these are reasonable and are worth debate.
 
I agree with Ezrael on most of these, but disagree with him on Bulu and Cress, and partially disagree on Suicune.

Kinda stating the obvious here, but Bulu gets grassy terrain. Grassy terrain weakens Lele and Koko, allows teammates to tank EQs for days, and provides essential recovery for bulky mons like Diancie and Zyg (especially the sub + lefties set on zyg). Some more niche but existent uses include nature power on mega camerupt and +50% power on Kartana's leaf blades. It resists every one of Incin's weaknesses (except rock, which doesn't count rn), something Kart and Amoong can't say. It can eat hits better than Kart can, and is a much bigger offensive threat than Amoong is. I'm not trying to debate which of those three is the best or the worst- simply saying Bulu does important things that neither other mon can do.

The definition of tier 4 includes "Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style." The first part fits Cress- it's a good mon. However, Cress also fits the second part, that it only fits on a specific team style (semiroom).
Want a bulky, utility psychic type with speed control for a fast team? Try mew (or victini).
Want a calm mind wincon? Try mega lati
Want a semiroom mon that also has an offensive presence? Try hoopa or necrozma
Want a hard TR mon that eats hits for days and gets ice beam? Try porygon2
I'm biased, but I'd even prefer Goth > Cress on most teams.

Cress did okay in Snake, but aside from that I've almost never seen it used competitively. It should get some more uses before it moves to tier 3.


As for Suicune, I'm on the fence about 3 vs 4. Just want to add that it's not "only" a role compression of Fini and Zapdos- snarl, and the combo of inner focus and roar are both solid.
 
I agree with Ezrael on most of these, but disagree with him on Bulu and Cress, and partially disagree on Suicune.

Kinda stating the obvious here, but Bulu gets grassy terrain. Grassy terrain weakens Lele and Koko, allows teammates to tank EQs for days, and provides essential recovery for bulky mons like Diancie and Zyg (especially the sub + lefties set on zyg). Some more niche but existent uses include nature power on mega camerupt and +50% power on Kartana's leaf blades. It resists every one of Incin's weaknesses (except rock, which doesn't count rn), something Kart and Amoong can't say. It can eat hits better than Kart can, and is a much bigger offensive threat than Amoong is. I'm not trying to debate which of those three is the best or the worst- simply saying Bulu does important things that neither other mon can do.

The definition of tier 4 includes "Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style." The first part fits Cress- it's a good mon. However, Cress also fits the second part, that it only fits on a specific team style (semiroom).
Want a bulky, utility psychic type with speed control for a fast team? Try mew (or victini).
Want a calm mind wincon? Try mega lati
Want a semiroom mon that also has an offensive presence? Try hoopa or necrozma
Want a hard TR mon that eats hits for days and gets ice beam? Try porygon2
I'm biased, but I'd even prefer Goth > Cress on most teams.

Cress did okay in Snake, but aside from that I've almost never seen it used competitively. It should get some more uses before it moves to tier 3.


As for Suicune, I'm on the fence about 3 vs 4. Just want to add that it's not "only" a role compression of Fini and Zapdos- snarl, and the combo of inner focus and roar are both solid.
Sorry, I cut some stuff out. Cress is currently tier 5, and I believe it should move to tier 4; I can see why my formatting, which was garbage, caused some misunderstandings.

With regards to tapu bulu, I think that the tempo of bulu is really awkward. It doesn't have enough bulk to be slow, but doesn't really do enough damage to go fast. It's kind of hard to explain what I'm thinking, but what I've found is that when I use Tapu Bulu, my team ends up weak to a number of common threats. If it didn't change I wouldn't be sad, but I think it's pretty clearly a class below other tier 2 mons like mega man, genesect, charizard, zygarde, and zapdos.
 
Landorus-Therian > 2
While Landorus-Therian still sees tremendous use, it doesn’t have much of an offensive presence like it used to. Most Landorus-Therian currently being used are SPA attackers, and Earth Power just doesn’t do that much damage. Landorus-Therian is mainly used to pivot with U-Turn, and cause ATK drops with Intimidate. If it’s not doing that, it’s probably using Stealth Rock. That’s already three moves, leaving only one slot for anything else, limiting what Landorus-Therian can do.

Charizard-Mega-Y > 1
What MajorBowman said.

Kartana > 1
What MackKnife said.

Tapu Lele > 1
In the recent DOU usage stats posted, this Pokémon was ranked 2nd, and for good reason. Psychic Terrain and Moonblast is great for countering Incineroar since the former prevents Fake Out and the latter does neutral damage. There’s really no good Poison-type or Ghost-type Pokémon getting in the way of this thing with Gengar-Mega banned, so its only real threats are Metagross-Mega, Genesect, and Kartana. And if you run HP Fire, two of those three threats are no longer threats.

Gastrodon > 3
This thing was used quite a bit in the 2018 Doubles Invitationals, notably by finalist, Croven, and has been seeing an increase in usage. Its Substitute set is known to be particularly good. Storm Drain works nicely in a meta where, 9 times out of 10, you’re going to see Tapu Fini. It’s also counters Rain.

Mew > 3
This is probably one of DOU’s best utility Pokémon. It has access to a ton of moves that are useful right now, which includes Incinerate, Icy Wind, Fake Out, U-Turn, Stealth Rock, and many more. You can pretty much put this Pokémon on any team, and get your money’s worth. Overall, it’s a well-rounded Pokémon, so T3 fits it perfectly.

Araquanid > 4
Like Gastrodon, this Pokémon was used a lot in the 2018 Doubles Invitationals. Sticky Web is a very reliable move as it provides speed control that sticks around for the entire match, Bug Bite can be used for consuming berries, and Wide Guard prevents spread moves. Araquanid is pretty bulky, and Bug/Water is a decent typing. It’s usually has minimal speed, so it can be used as a Trick Room counter.

Diancie-Mega > 4
While this isn’t as nice as Diancie, Magic Bounce can be used as a deterrent to those using phazing moves like Roar and restricting moves like Taunt. That makes this Pokémon capable of setting Trick Room without being hindered (unless you OHKO it, but not many Pokémon can do that given its tremendous bulk). Other than that, it’s Fairy-type and Rock-type coverage is extremely beneficial in the current meta.
 
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