Resource USUM Doubles OU Viability Rankings

Memoric

almost human
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#1

Art by GenOne
Welcome to the DOU Viability Ranking project, where we rank the viability of Pokemon in DOU. This thread will proceed a little differently from the last one: the floor will always be open to discussion, and after a period of time (probably every 2 weeks), the viability rankings council will vote on any of the Pokemon being discussed and post the results and reasoning here. A Pokemon moving from UR to Ranked must receive both a majority and at least 3 votes of "yes" in order to be Ranked. The rankings and tier descriptions have been assigned to better each Pokemon's state within the metagame.

VR Shifts occur on Sundays every 3 weeks, with next shift on October 7. The VR council also does a retrospective vote of Pokemon in Tiers 4 and 5 every 5th of each month; more details on this post.

>>VR Council<<
These users have the ultimate say on shifts in Viability rankings tiers. The council consists of experienced players who have different styles and perspectives to offer to the table when deciding the strength of any individual pokemon.
Demantoid
Kaori
MajorBowman
marilli
Memoric
SMB
talkingtree

>>Tier 1<<
Pokemon that dominate a large portion of the metagame. They are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon.
Mega Gengar
Incineroar
Landorus-T
Mega Metagross
Tapu Fini

>>Tier 2<<
Pokemon that are generally strong and can easily be placed on a variety of teams, but don't have the same level of prowess as the threats in Tier 1
Amoonguss
Genesect
Kyurem-B
Tapu Bulu
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Volcanion
Zapdos
Zygarde

>>Tier 3<<
Pokemon that are generally strong, but can be dead weight in some matchups, don't have great matchups vs a lot of Tier 1 and 2, or are only particularly useful for checking a certain team style.
Aegislash
Mega Charizard-Y
Deoxys-A
Diancie
Ferrothorn
Gothitelle
Hoopa-U
Kingdra
Kartana
Kommo-o
Mega Manectric
Mega Salamence
Mega Scizor
Stakataka
Suicune
Tyranitar

>>Tier 4<<
Pokemon which have broad applications on a variety of teams but are simply less effective than the Pokemon in the higher tiers. This also includes Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support but are still stronger than Pokemon in the tiers below
Mega Camerupt
Chansey
Celesteela
Mew
Milotic
Pelipper
Politoed
Porygon2
Scrafty
Mega Swampert
Mega Tyranitar
Victini
Zeraora

>>Tier 5<<
Pokemon that can only serve a specific role not needed by most teams, but can still perform excellently.
Araquanid
Azumarill
Bronzong
Cresselia
Mega Diancie
Excadrill
Mega Gardevoir
Heatran
Landorus
Naganadel
Rotom-W
Togekiss
Tornadus
Volcarona
 
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miltankmilk

**hypnotic recorder plays in background**
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#2
USUM VR Shifts

Necrozma UR -> 4

kamikaze: Abstain.

MajorBowman: sure, got some new tools that make it way more of a threat

Marilli: yes the movepool buff is quite nice for it, was already borderline viable but the additional flexibility really makes the deal for it.

Memoric: OTR is a menace lol. The new moves are p great at letting necro do what it does. 4 out of that easily.

miltankmilk: Gained an expansive movepool and photon geyser is super lit. It can run an Offensive Trick Room type set or a 3 attack protect set, Z move and kasib/pinch berry are decent options. Auraray has run SD which could be neat as well


Stakataka UR -> 3/4

kamikaze: 3. Great TR Setter and Gyro is still very strong even if it takes an intimidate which is something it has over other Physical TR Attackers (looking at you scrafty)

MajorBowman: I would say 4 at first to wait and see if the initial hype dies down. Definitely think it’s a solid mon, just don’t want to jump to conclusions

Marilli: 3. strong tr setter and tr attacker. Its wide guard and ally switch utility mindgame can be quite strong, too.

Memoric: 3, great tr setter and its other tools are annoying. Incredibly dangerous under room.

miltankmilk: 3 Very strong TR setter and with a resist berry it can be very tough to stop from setting TR. Its gyro is a real weapon under TR and Stone Edge/Continental Crush provides a good secondary attacking option.


Mega Metagross 2 -> 1

kamikaze: Yes. Its probably been the most dominant Mega recently barring Mence and has found its way on multiple successful teams. The amount of weight it pulls and people opting for bulky builds has enabled them to even get good trades like taking out opposing Marshadows after taking a hit from it.

MajorBowman: yeah this thing is super good. Really good damage output with really good bulk and typing to boot. Stomping tantrum is a huge blessing for it since it has a decent way to hit steels now. Metagross was really good at the end of SM and is only getting better

Marilli: meta defining mon atm agreed. Great bruiser with great typing, solid mon that puts in work every game, and has a lot of versatility and potential tricks up its sleeves. Works in psyspam as well as just about any balance team that appreciates a steel type, also has the perk of not getting outsped by everything the way aegislash or ferrothorn does.

Memoric: yeah sure. P much the most well-rounded attacker in the whole tier and p great at applying pressure. Doesn’t have much flair in it but it’s pretty dependable at doing what it does every game.

miltankmilk: This pokemon defines the metagame right now. Great coverage, great power, great bulk. Its an offensive and defensive asset to teams right now and is pretty much risk-free to use Gross on a team.


Blacephalon UR -> 4/5

kamikaze: 5. I have actually been seeing this mon do decent work. Fire Ghost was always great offensively but Chandelure just wasnt that great an abuser of it. Blacephelon has 151 spA and 107 Speed. The Scarf set pretty much safely outspeeds all of the fastest known pokemon in the tier that run Choice Scarf and is capable of beating all of them. Mindblown hasnt really blown my mind. Its probably just a gimmick move.

MajorBowman: UR. Frail as hell and mind blown sucks. Only seen it as a meme scarf mon with zard, not a fan.

Marilli: 5. Kinda too frail to be not quite fast enough for the metagame, but works with Scarf and stab combination is very strong. Promising Pokemon but will need to see more tour play before I can feel confident nomming this up more than 5, but I have been told that this has actually seen some comp play to actually rank it above UR.

Memoric: abstain, this is no mon in my book

miltankmilk: 5 this mons actually good. Scarf and LO are both good, it hits like a truck just dont sack yourself to mindblown.

Naganadel UR -> 4/5

kamikaze: Abstain. I feel like its usable but I know people have tried this mon and it doesnt seem to be pulling its weight. Its so hard to decide what to pick moveslot wise between Dual Stabs, Fire Moves, Tailwind, Protect. It wishes it had all at once or otherwise it can be hard walled by multiple threats depending on what it chooses to drop attack wise. I know its high usage in early VGC Battlespot Ladder so we will see if we are just missing something or their meta may also phase it out when tournaments begin. Invitational may open our eyes if people can crack the code on this mon.

MajorBowman: Abstain. Haven’t seen it in action at all in dou.

Marilli: UR. Kinda too frail and dragon STAB is quite lackluster. Promising Pokemon but the fact that it’s so frail and needs to make do with using Sludge Bomb as its main attacking move and Fire Blast won’t KO relevant steels other than Ferrothorn. Also hasn’t showed up in the tournaments yet. Maybe if it gets use in invitationals and does well, we’ll push this up to 5.

Memoric: this is no mon either.

miltankmilk: UR. No bulk and its speed tier isn’t as good as it looks. No room for nasty plot, using dragon moves sucks and its also hard to fit tailwind.


Kartana 5 -> 4

kamikaze:4. I was a naysayer in SM until I saw it ravage teams near the end of SM and was willing to let it go to 5 and at the absolute close of SM I was even leaning on it going to 4. Now in USUM it has Tailwind which greatly increases its utility and Knock Off is not bad either but I am not sure how much that will be used except for maybe Metagross. Z-Tailwind also sets you up for guaranteed crit leaf blades to abuse under your Tailwind turns which make it much more threatening as generally people would check Kartana by Intimidating it and forcing it out.

MajorBowman: 5, never thought Kartana was very good in DOU. Similarly to blacephalon it’s just way too frail to be an important part of a team, but at least it has better typing and one good defensive stat. Hits like a truck but that’s really all it has going.

Marilli: 4. knock is nice tailwind is nice and a quite strong mon overall that just got even better.

Memoric: 4. Man’s hot, it was always a really great offensive threat and now it got better options in store.

miltankmilk: 4 nice access to tailwind and knock off. Strong leaf blade is great vs the fini & co meta and it also soft checks metagross with its decent phys bulk + speedcontrol/knock/+1 sacred sword.

Tier Changes
Necrozma UR -> 4
Stakataka UR -> 3
Mega Metagross 2 -> 1
Blacephalon UR -> 5
Kartana 5 -> 4

VR Council Shifts

qsns VR -> UR
Shaian VR -> UR: Thanks Shay and qsns for all you guys did on this project.
Demantoid UR -> VR : Demantoid is :sogood: and we welcome him to the VR council for the start of USUM.


-----------------
Some additional notes:
  • Obviously I am not qsns but I will be taking over this thread as qsns has stepped down. What I lack in ability to duel with UR mons, I make up for in my ability to update the VR in hopefully a timely manner.
  • Mimikyu is no longer Blacklisted, but don't test your luck with 1 line noms.
Without further ado, the USUM VR is now open!
 
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nvakna

consistently random
#3
Nomming naganadel to tier 5.
After suspect laddering with this mon, I can confidently say that it is at least as good as everything else in that tier (if it hits fire blast). It's coverage allows it to OHKO a good portion of top tier mons (e.g. non fini tapus, mega-mence, lando, ferro, scizor, genesect, mega-gross (a favorable roll)). It has decent bulk and good typing so it wins 1-on-1s against most things it misses the KO on (e.g. fini, steela, volcanion). It isn't OHKO'd by marsh bar SSSSS. It requires partners with answers to ttar, hoopa, and full room though.

The set that I recommend people use is:
Naganadel @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Protect

HP ice over dpulse since I clicked dpulse on lando too many times and this still KOs mence.
Fire blast has a 70% chance to OHKO 0hp mega-metagross, 100% with rocks (ignoring accuracy of course).
Getting speed boosts from beast boost often came in handy as it can out speed scarf lando/lele and opposing tailwind zap/fini.
 
#4
I'd also like to add that the Devastating Drake set is really good, because it just lets you drop a significant portion of the metagame with your crazy speed tier and great SpA. I've also seen different sets that are pretty strong like the Tailwind set, even though you sacrifice significant coverage with it. I think Naganadel could possibly rise to 4 in the near future but it should definitely get to 5
 

Yellow Paint

Afraid of technology?
is a Tutoris a Tiering Contributor
#5
Volcanion 3 -> 2

Volcanion is the best fire and the second best water. It's definitely better than heatran and the rest of tier 3 in the current meta, and is a glue mon on par with aegi in tier 2. It hard counters fini, and has relatively neutral matchups across tier 1 depending on set. Volc often gets edged out by fini for the water slot, but it's still unique enough to deserve tier 2 on its own merit. Unlike fini, volc is rock weak and walled by kyube, but it makes up for that with a much better offensive presence and fire typing.

Mega Gardevoir 3 -> 4

Sorry garde, not much to say besides that it sees very little play and fits much better with the tier 4 description of usable only on specific team styles with heavy support. Marsh and megagross everywhere hasn't helped garde much either.
 
#6
Volcanion 3 -> 2

Volcanion is the best fire and the second best water. It's definitely better than heatran and the rest of tier 3 in the current meta, and is a glue mon on par with aegi in tier 2. It hard counters fini, and has relatively neutral matchups across tier 1 depending on set. Volc often gets edged out by fini for the water slot, but it's still unique enough to deserve tier 2 on its own merit. Unlike fini, volc is rock weak and walled by kyube, but it makes up for that with a much better offensive presence and fire typing.

Mega Gardevoir 3 -> 4

Sorry garde, not much to say besides that it sees very little play and fits much better with the tier 4 description of usable only on specific team styles with heavy support. Marsh and megagross everywhere hasn't helped garde much either.
I feel like we should wait on the marsh suspect to move mega garde down. Agree on volcanion tho, its a good mon
 

GenOne

Moving forward...
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#7
Zapdos 2 -> 1

E: or drop mence to 2, but Zapdos is at least on the same level as mence

Every good DOU team needs an ironclad speed control strategy. While I'd personally love to see fullroom get more love, the fact is Tailwind is the most reliable, followed closely behind semiroom. When it comes to Tailwind setters you can't get one much more reliable than Zapdos. Good bulk and access to roost let it reliably set Tailwind multiple times in a match. Offensively, it does a good job at checking bulky Water-types but, more importantly imo, Heat Wave gives you extra Fire-type coverage to beat Ferro / Scizor without stacking weaknesses. HP Ice is obviously still great too if you need defense against menace and Lando. There's very little downside to running Zapdos on a team unless the rest of it is overly Stealth Rock weak or hail weak.

Azumarill 4 -> 5

I can't remember the last time I've seen this used. Most teams in this meta have at least one Pokemon with enough bulk / typing advantage to take an aqua jet and retaliate. Psychic Terrain is an ongoing issue for it too. Maybe Azu is being slept on or something, but looking at the other Tier 4 mons, I'd say Azu is definitely less relevant.
 
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marilli

i love a hot shower
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#8
Mega Manectric ur -> 5

This is a very cool mon with bunch of utility options like intimidate / nice access / volt switch / lrod support. It's super fast and can have positive matchup vs majority of t1 and top of t2, like koko, marsh, mence, fini, lando, and metagross, as well as some very annoying Pokemon to deal with from teambuilding phase like Ferrothorn, depending on what moves it's using. It needs some residual to face many of them but it can provide for itself with volt switch, and especially with SR support Volt Switch is pretty good at quickly racking up damage. L51 has used it quite extensively in his invitational games so bop there you go.
 
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#10
Even then, Tapu Lele doesn't take a mega slot, being able to hold other items, and it has Psychic Surge. The only thing that Mega Gardevoir shines brighter compared to Tapu Lele is Pixilate Hyper Voice.
Having stupid strong spread with great coverage is enough to distinguish it tbh. Pixilate Hyper Voice hits hard af, and when(/if) marsh gets banned, people are gonna start using garde again.
 

SMB

Akaru Kokuyo's Kawaii Neko
is a Tiering Contributor
#11
I don't want to be hasty since the meta will probably change now that marshadow is gone but i was going to make these noms regardless of the suspect result so i'll go with them :o


KyuB Tier 2 -> Tier 1

This mon checks more than half of the tier on just 1 slot and it's so unusual that it does not performs well on every game that I think it deserves tier 1; it has speed control in icy wind and nearly perfect coverage, also, it can even run hp fire to hit some of its more popular checks, dclaw is also a thing i've been trying due to its high usage on many teams. It has a variety of sets that no other mon on tier 2 has except maybe lele: av, seed, lo, scarf, z move (fusion bolt and i've seen frania trying what it seemed freeze shock which sounds cool) are all def viable sets. It can fit on such a variety of teams that you only have to see dlt finals to realize, it was used on 6/6 teams featuring different sets and on different archetypes (metagross balance, semiroom, rain and scizor balance). Imo this mon could be tier 1 even with marsh on the tier, and now that it's gone kyub has lost one of its biggest checks and can only improve.


Cresselia UR -> Tier 4 or 5

It has almost the same support tools it had before (tr, icy wind, helping hand, safeguard...) but now ally switch has given new life to this mon since it can work as a "fake redirection". You can't focus on the other slot your attacks and forgot that this mon exists anymore due to this. This mon def won't be as good as it was in oras (it's kinda unexplored yet tho) but in my experience it's probably the best ally switch user on the tier and shouldn't be unranked. I have this kickoff tour replay to support my nom (x) where i think cress performs its rol excellently.
 
#12

Victini -> Tier 3
I dont think a theres a mon that exerts more offensive pressure than victini, because the ability to trade easily with 80-90% of the meta is really powerful. Can't be sneaked anymore either by Marshadow. Oh and it beats steels which is nice. The scarf set doesn't get outsped by anything other than kingdra/exca so you can literally handpick the biggest threat and drop it.

Also a menace on hard tr too. It forces a 1v1 situation vs your setter and also gives a free switch to your powerhouse. We cant have badmon tran be tier 3 and victini tier 4 it doesnt sound right.


Oranguru -> Tier 5
How can unmon terrakion be ranked by oranguru isnt. Its really bulky and has a really nice niche in instruct and its just disgustingly hard to play vs rupt hitting twice per turn.
 

miltankmilk

**hypnotic recorder plays in background**
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#13
VR Shifts!

Nagandel UR -> 5
Demantoid: Sure, It’s good enough to rank but isn’t really anything special, and also hasn’t seen much usage in tournament games.

kamikaze: Sure

MajorBowman: yeah probably fine, fast and strong is never a bad combination. Interested to see if it sees much use in SPL

Marilli: ok fine but id like to see more naganadel in practice tho

Memoric: what marilli said tbh

miltankmilk: Basically what marilli said. I’ve seen enough different sets on Naga that its worth ranking but nothing is really extraordinary.

Volcanion 3 -> 2
Demantoid: yes, much better than all of 3 and about half of 2 right now. Good typing lets it be more threatening both offensively and defensively than other fires.

kamikaze: Yes. Volcanion is fantastic. Substitute in particularly with the Fire Water coverage still dispatches most of the meta besides Fini and Mence. It still chunks Rain pokemon despite the water resist

MajorBowman: s t e a m y. Yes, volc is great. Sub Lefties and Sub Z move are great sets, and it can run some others pretty well too

Marilli: yeah volcanions a top threat

Memoric: yeah, most of its sets are p good, sub in particular being p nasty, while it also has some notable defensive value

miltankmilk: Agree, the steamy one is a menace and its bulk is fantastic for a fire.

Mega Gardevoir 3 -> 4
Demantoid: mishi’s mom is :sobad: don’t think a marsh ban would make it that much better either since that helps a lot of the steels

kamikaze: Abstain

MajorBowman: 4, garde has plummeted in usage since USUM and just struggles to keep up with some of the new pokemon

Marilli: abstain but yeah if its going down marsh ban doesnt exactly make it better, marsh is a p good mon on garde builds for vs steels

Memoric: yeah, things just aren’t being good for it

miltankmilk: Agree, I’ve seen very little good teams with Garde since like phase 1 of snake. Its just not the dominant mon it was in ORAS, its weaker, the power creep has been unkind to it as well. Move this down

Zapdos 2 -> 1
Demantoid: No. Zap is still good but isn’t quite as splashable since Kyube can perform basically the exact same role with different typing. It also doesn’t hit too hard without sacrificing a lot of bulk.

kamikaze: No not yet

MajorBowman: No, it’s a super good pokemon but it’s not going to be dominating games. Zapdos will almost always do its job but it won’t be soloing teams. 2 is a good spot for it.

Marilli: idt zap is tier 1 worthy, but i also agreed with qsns on dropping fini out of 1 too. It doesnt do enough on its own with neutral damage to actually pose a threat and SR really makes life hard and if u switch out with no spdef boost and the 25% chip you’re basically a useless mon, so you’re stuck in vs bad matchups more often that you’d like.

Memoric: no, it’s splashable but it’s not really a dominating kind of mon. by itself, it’s not really that powerful

miltankmilk: No. Zap is splashable but its level of passive-ness is noticable compared to mence/meta/marsh and fini/lando provide better utility than zap imo. To me theres a gap between the usefulness across matchups that the tier 1 mons have and that zap has. Zap has some rough matchups that I think people are beginning to exploit and really benefits from the stress semiroom is under because of marshadow.

Mega Salamence 1 -> 2
Demantoid: Yes. Doesn’t check anything in tier 1 or 2 besides Amoongus very well while just losing to half of them.

kamikaze: No. I dont think Mence is much weaker than any of the mons in Tier 1. I think people are underestimating its splashability with the whole obsession with Mega Metagross and Mega Scizor currently so they havent really been using it much. Mega Metagross usage rising definitely is something that hurts it to some degree but Dragon Flying Typing with Intimidate and a relatively spammable stab is still extremely threatening.

MajorBowman: No, Mence is still one of the best megas and is super threatening with both its mixed and DD sets. No reason to drop it, even if metagross is inching up the usage boards

Marilli: eh i think this is still one of the most splashable megas

Memoric: No, mence is p splashable and still def one of the top mons in the game. High speed and solid coverage + power still allow it to threaten a lot and it has notable utility + dd still pretty threatening. It still fits on most teams and still does swhat it still does

miltankmilk: Yes. Mence has some really tough matchups these days, Zap is super common, stakataka and ttar are both fairly common, kyu-b is a menace these days. The early SM days where mence was undisputed top mega are over and i think its time to move this to 2.

Azumarill 4 -> 5
Demantoid: mish. Azumarill does not deserve the title of ”Elite Water” Could even see this as UR since recent meta shifts like kyube and megagross are even worse for it.

kamikaze: Abstain

MajorBowman: i didn’t even know this thing was still ranked. Drop it, biggest fall from grace in dou history lol

Marilli: abstain

Memoric: what’s this?

miltankmilk: Yeah this mon’s garb. Haven’t seen it used since like July.

Mega Manectric UR -> 5
Demantoid: Yes. Since Landos aren’t scarf anymore it’s able to attack and pivot more freely than before. Fire and electric coverage is also pretty good.

kamikaze: Abstain

MajorBowman: No, doesn’t have great damage output and an intimidate volt switch bot isn’t worth the mega slot imo

Marilli: my nom

Memoric: ok lol, it can threaten stuff with speed but that’s about it tbh.

miltankmilk: sure, it kills itself when rocks are up but it gains momentum very well and has a neat ability and speed tier.


VR Changes

Naganadel UR -> 5
Volcanion 3 -> 2
Mega Gardevoir 3 -> 4
Azumarill 4 -> 5
Mega Manectric UR -> 5
Marshadow 1 -> Shadow Realm
 
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Level 51

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#14
Sure it has increased viability, but Mega Gengar isn't super splashable like Mega Salamence or Landorus-T in that they fit on a wide variety of teams, which is what Tier 1's all about. Mega Gengar's trapping is a niche role only appreciated by a few teams, and the team's structure has to be quite specific for it to really put in work. So while it's really good at this one particular job, I don't think the job is in high enough demand for it to be considered one of the Best Pokemon Ever in the tier.
 
#16
Now that I used them in SPL:

Staraptor --> 5
Gambit is really valuable as seen from Victini's spike in usage lately, this is a marginally worse user of it that trades bulk and better coverage for Intimidate and a Ground immunity. Wouldn't put it much higher than this

Milotic --> 4
Marsh is gone so Coil set can be used again, it's super dangerous when played right and you have to respect it in building. Would advocate for 3 but baby steps

Zygarde --> 2
Has been trending up in SPL and it's as dangerous as its been since the Swagger ban with Marsh not around to steal its boosts. Able to use Ground or Dragon Z, band, pinch berry, Life Orb, and a range of coverage moves, its much better than its current ranking shows
 

miltankmilk

**hypnotic recorder plays in background**
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#17
Quick shifts (sorry Kaori we'll get yours on the next round :| )
Kyurem-B 2 -> 1
Demantoid: 1, Even though it’s weak to some common mons it can be used on almost any team, and it’s a lot better than Mega Salamence to me.

kamikaze: Stay 2. Still very much think AV Kyub is overrated but I have said that for the past few months.

MajorBowman: Remain 2. Similarly to Zapdos, I think Kyurem is a mon that can fit on most teams but won win games on its own. It’s great at what it does and absolutely deserves to be 2, but I don’t think it’s enough of a force to be in tier 1.

Marilli: Disagree, I think AV Kyub is slightly overrated. Yes it does decent neutral damage to most things and doesn’t have a blanket counter, but Mega Metagross is one of the best Pokemon in the tier right now. Yes Marshadow just got banned but that freed up room for more variety of Kyurem-B checks like Tyranitar and Snorlax.

Memoric: 2, great at what it does and it’s a really nasty pivot, but it can be somewhat passive. It also gets worn down a bit quick esp considerign rocks weakeness.

Miltankmilk: I also think this mon’s a bit overhyped. Its really good just like the rest of tier 2 but its set-up bait for lax, its bodied by the best pokemon in the tier (metagross), and ends up getting chipped down faster than you’d think.

Talkingtree: Stay 2. I’m a huge advocate for Kyurem-B and I think it’s one of the best mons in Tier 2, but it still can’t compete with Tier 1. Rocks, Mega Metagross everywhere, and people generally learning how to deal with AV sets prevents it from being metagame-defining. Life Orb sets are powerful but have their own pitfalls and can be far harder to fit onto a team.

Cresselia UR -> 4 or 5 (pick one)
Demantoid: 4. The support sets probably could have gotten it to 4 or 5 even with Marsh around but CM lets it also have a set with offensive presence.

kamikaze: I am gonna go with 5 for now. I have seen it do some work but not convinced it has had enough games on display to prove itself to rise higher yet.

MajorBowman: I wasn’t even aware Cresselia was getting usage again (if it even is?). I’ll say 5 I guess, but I’m not even convinced it deserves to be ranked at all right now. Definitely no to 4 immediately, maybe down the road.

Marilli: 4. This mons actually p decent and i’m a believer after seeing this in practice.

Memoric: 5 for now. I can see that point but i dont like seeing this get to 4 immediately

Miltankmilk: 4. This mon’s super annoying with icy wind, ally switch, trick room, etc. Its got a ton of support options and the cm set is dangerous as well.

Talkingtree: Yes to 5, Abstain to 4. I prefer using Necrozma for almost any Trick Room or Calm Mind set, so it’s left to do assorted support with Icy Wind/Helping Hand/Ally Switch. It’s annoying to take down, but rarely a big threat on its own. Difficult to pin this one down without seeing much this whole generation.

Victini 4 -> 3
Demantoid: Abstain. It exerts a lot of pressure but I’m not convinced about its ability to actually make a difference in a match.

kamikaze: No

MajorBowman: No, I feel like this is the ninth time we’ve voted on this. It’s a decent mon but only decent, and the one set that sets it apart from similar mons relies on it killing itself so I don’t think it’s worthy of 3. Tier 1 for cuteness tho

Marilli: Yeah no ive used this a few times and it feels like it sometimes puts in a decent amount of work but at other times it feels too easily outplayed and is quite inconsistent.

Memoric: abstain

Miltankmilk: No, this mon has 1 viable set that really draws its power from the ability to kill itself. Physical fire-type is pretty bad for offensive coverage, lackluster power doesn’t make up for good coverage imo. 4 is fine.

Talkingtree: Abstain

Oranguru UR -> 5
Demantoid: 5, I built a semi-serious team with the monkey (before aray >:I) and discovered that it’s actually decent.

kamikaze: Abstain

MajorBowman: Remain UR. Instruct is cool and all but oranguru is just not worth using over other TR setters. It doesn’t have the bulk or the movepool outside of Instruct to consistently make enough of an impact

Marilli: :monkey: Abstain. I know this has upsides, is not a joke mon, and have seen this in practice in some test games and seen it pull its weight. But so are bunch of semiviable Pokes also in UR. Probably worth ranking up tbh but i just don’t like ranking Pokemon that see 0 tournament use.

Memoric: abstain

Miltankmilk: yeah fine, people gotta use this or imma nom it back down tho

Talkingtree: 5 seems alright. AuraRayquaza has done some cool things with this mon, it’s bulky and annoying. Sort of like Cress as a bulky Psychic-type speed control provider with support moves, but it provides a different kind of support and matches up far better against Mega Gengar and Aegis.

Mega Gengar 1.5 -> 1
Demantoid: no, a lot more things can tank its hits well than pre-marsh and it doesn’t fit on teams as well as other megas like gross and mence since it doesn’t really have any defensive synergy with other mons.

kamikaze: No. I agree with Level 51

MajorBowman: Yeah just echoing milk and tree, I think Gengar is good but not overwhelming. Agree with 51’s post.

Marilli: :ghost:
n

Memoric: no lol, it’s great but it’s not as universal as 1 demands. It doesn’t have the same overall versatility than the other goons there.

Miltankmilk: no, mega gengar is great but pretty much what level 51 said in his response post to this nom. It has a niche, (larger than he gave it credit for), but gar requires a team around it to really flourish and removing 1 check doesn’t make gengar suddenly tier 1.

Talkingtree: no, it doesn’t belong it Tier 1. It also didn’t start in Tier 1.5, which has been gone since before this thread was posted, but that’s not the point. Level 51’s response said most of what I was thinking.


Shifts
Cresselia UR -> 5 (we had a tie between 4 and 5, yielding to the lower ranking)
:monkey: UR -> 5
 

Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
#18

Cresselia UR -> Tier 4 or 5

It has almost the same support tools it had before (tr, icy wind, helping hand, safeguard...) but now ally switch has given new life to this mon since it can work as a "fake redirection". You can't focus on the other slot your attacks and forgot that this mon exists anymore due to this. This mon def won't be as good as it was in oras (it's kinda unexplored yet tho) but in my experience it's probably the best ally switch user on the tier and shouldn't be unranked. I have this kickoff tour replay to support my nom (x) where i think cress performs its rol excellently.
Want icy wind? use tapu fini
Want TR? use Garde or Hoopa or Mew or Necrozma
Want ally switch? Use something with actual resists (the most important part of an ally switch mon) like rotom-wash, like Level 51 did
simply put this mon still functions as the same momentum drain is always was, and ally switch's effectiveness is dependent on its ability to bring two mons on the same field with complimentary resists together, which Cresselia does not provide.

Doing /ds ally switch and then picking the mon with the highest defensive statline doesn't make any sense because that's not how ally switch works - you need real resists that compliment potential partner mons so you can easily absorb the hydro pump that's aiming at your LandoT and such

As an additional point Mew can do all of these things better while bluffing more set possibilities and bringing transform

As for "it's kinda unexplored" this just solidifies my impression that this nom is focused solely on theorymon. As far as actual usage, it died and did nothing in the 1 spl game it was used in

The only thing Cresselia does uniquely is CM set, which so far has been bad

Also after typing this all I have just realized this was already moved to 5 so consider this Cresselia -> UR

To quickly address some points in the vote reasonings, Marshadow's departure doesn't mean that gross+gar aren't the two top usage megas, along with a decent abundance of things like Hoopa-U / Lax / LandoT / Tapu Bulu / Tyranitar etc that more than easily deal with Cresselia. If one seriously considers putting Cresselia on a team there is almost always a better mon that would fit, whether it would have a significantly better movepool, more offensive pressure, or actually usable defensive typing
 

GenOne

Moving forward...
is a Community Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#19
1516530699446.png

Camerupt | Tier 5 -> Tier 4

According to the 178 replays available to date for USUM, Camerupt's usage rate and win rate are surprisingly high (more on that below). Statistical rates aren't everything, of course, but it's also just abundantly clear that fullroom teams benefited greatly from USUM's introduction of Stakataka, Necrozma, and eventually the Marshadow ban.

Camerupt is pretty much the premium Mega when it comes to full Trick Room builds, and Tier 5 isn't an accurate spot for it. Tier 4 is intended to include "Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support but are still stronger than Pokemon in the tiers below," and that perfectly sums up what Camerupt is.

The replays that we have available (at the time of this post) to sample for usage stats include:
  • 86 replays from the USUM Kickoff Tour
  • 82 replays from Round 1 of DOU Seasonals
  • 10 replays from weeks 1 and 2 of SPL 9 (I left out Week 3 since there's only 2 replays there so far)
Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Landorus-Therian   |  169 |  47.47% |  51.48% |
| 2    | Tapu Fini          |  124 |  34.83% |  46.77% |
| 3    | Kyurem-Black       |   89 |  25.00% |  46.07% |
| 4    | Zapdos             |   88 |  24.72% |  43.18% |
| 5    | Volcanion          |   79 |  22.19% |  59.49% |
| 5    | Tapu Koko          |   79 |  22.19% |  56.96% |
| 7    | Tapu Lele          |   76 |  21.35% |  51.32% |
| 8    | Metagross          |   75 |  21.07% |  48.00% |
| 9    | Tapu Bulu          |   70 |  19.66% |  54.29% |
| 10   | Salamence          |   67 |  18.82% |  53.73% |
| 11   | Hoopa-Unbound      |   62 |  17.42% |  58.06% |
| 11   | Scrafty            |   62 |  17.42% |  53.23% |
| 11   | Tyranitar          |   62 |  17.42% |  38.71% |
| 14   | Stakataka          |   60 |  16.85% |  60.00% |
| 15   | Marshadow          |   55 |  15.45% |  58.18% |
| 16   | Amoonguss          |   45 |  12.64% |  48.89% |
| 17   | Snorlax            |   42 |  11.80% |  59.52% |
| 17   | Zygarde            |   42 |  11.80% |  54.76% |
| 19   | Gengar             |   38 |  10.67% |  39.47% |
| 20   | Camerupt           |   37 |  10.39% |  59.46% |
| 21   | Ferrothorn         |   36 |  10.11% |  58.33% |
| 22   | Aegislash          |   35 |   9.83% |  60.00% |
| 23   | Necrozma           |   33 |   9.27% |  57.58% |
| 24   | Celesteela         |   30 |   8.43% |  40.00% |
| 25   | Deoxys-Attack      |   28 |   7.87% |  57.14% |
| 25   | Kartana            |   28 |   7.87% |  35.71% |
| 27   | Heatran            |   27 |   7.58% |  44.44% |
| 28   | Victini            |   25 |   7.02% |  32.00% |
| 29   | Scizor             |   23 |   6.46% |  56.52% |
| 29   | Diancie            |   23 |   6.46% |  34.78% |
| 31   | Pelipper           |   20 |   5.62% |  50.00% |
| 32   | Charizard          |   19 |   5.34% |  57.89% |
| 33   | Genesect           |   15 |   4.21% |  46.67% |
| 34   | Bronzong           |   14 |   3.93% |  50.00% |
| 35   | Naganadel          |   13 |   3.65% |  53.85% |
| 35   | Mew                |   13 |   3.65% |  53.85% |
| 35   | Gothitelle         |   13 |   3.65% |  46.15% |
| 35   | Cresselia          |   13 |   3.65% |  30.77% |
| 39   | Blacephalon        |   12 |   3.37% |  25.00% |
| 40   | Kingdra            |   11 |   3.09% |  36.36% |
| 41   | Rotom-Wash         |   10 |   2.81% |  50.00% |
| 41   | Ninetales-Alola    |   10 |   2.81% |  10.00% |
| 43   | Swampert           |    9 |   2.53% |  66.67% |
| 43   | Manectric          |    9 |   2.53% |  55.56% |
| 43   | Gyarados           |    9 |   2.53% |  44.44% |
| 43   | Mimikyu            |    9 |   2.53% |  11.11% |
| 47   | Meloetta           |    8 |   2.25% |  87.50% |
| 48   | Milotic            |    7 |   1.97% |  71.43% |
| 48   | Torkoal            |    7 |   1.97% |  57.14% |
| 48   | Mawile             |    7 |   1.97% |  28.57% |
| 48   | Whimsicott         |    7 |   1.97% |  28.57% |
| 52   | Togedemaru         |    6 |   1.69% | 100.00% |
| 52   | Venusaur           |    6 |   1.69% |  66.67% |
| 52   | Terrakion          |    6 |   1.69% |  66.67% |
| 52   | Abomasnow          |    6 |   1.69% |  50.00% |
| 52   | Hariyama           |    6 |   1.69% |  50.00% |
| 52   | Porygon2           |    6 |   1.69% |  50.00% |
| 52   | Excadrill          |    6 |   1.69% |   0.00% |
| 59   | Ludicolo           |    5 |   1.40% |  60.00% |
| 59   | Chansey            |    5 |   1.40% |  20.00% |
| 59   | Staraptor          |    5 |   1.40% |  20.00% |
| 59   | Incineroar         |    5 |   1.40% |   0.00% |
| 63   | Togekiss           |    4 |   1.12% |  75.00% |
| 63   | Rotom-Heat         |    4 |   1.12% |  75.00% |
| 63   | Gardevoir          |    4 |   1.12% |  75.00% |
| 63   | Suicune            |    4 |   1.12% |  75.00% |
| 63   | Pheromosa          |    4 |   1.12% |  50.00% |
| 63   | Muk-Alola          |    4 |   1.12% |  50.00% |
| 63   | Kommo-o            |    4 |   1.12% |  50.00% |
| 63   | Thundurus          |    4 |   1.12% |  25.00% |
| 71   | Thundurus-Therian  |    3 |   0.84% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Chandelure         |    3 |   0.84% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Clefairy           |    3 |   0.84% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Ampharos           |    3 |   0.84% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Bisharp            |    3 |   0.84% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Shaymin-Sky        |    3 |   0.84% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Sylveon            |    3 |   0.84% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Drampa             |    3 |   0.84% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Volcarona          |    3 |   0.84% |  33.33% |
| 71   | Politoed           |    3 |   0.84% |  33.33% |
| 71   | Landorus           |    3 |   0.84% |  33.33% |
| 71   | Marowak-Alola      |    3 |   0.84% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Porygon-Z          |    2 |   0.56% | 100.00% |
| 83   | Seismitoad         |    2 |   0.56% | 100.00% |
| 83   | Hydreigon          |    2 |   0.56% | 100.00% |
| 83   | Slowking           |    2 |   0.56% |  50.00% |
| 83   | Oranguru           |    2 |   0.56% |  50.00% |
| 83   | Spiritomb          |    2 |   0.56% |  50.00% |
| 83   | Tornadus           |    2 |   0.56% |  50.00% |
| 83   | Lopunny            |    2 |   0.56% |  50.00% |
| 83   | Entei              |    2 |   0.56% |  50.00% |
| 83   | Wishiwashi         |    2 |   0.56% |  50.00% |
| 83   | Hitmontop          |    2 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Moltres            |    2 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Slowbro            |    2 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Shuckle            |    2 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Araquanid          |    2 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Arcanine           |    2 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Cofagrigus         |    2 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Shiinotic          |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 100  | Blastoise          |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 100  | Houndoom           |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 100  | Latias             |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 100  | Blissey            |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 100  | Greninja           |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 100  | Keldeo             |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 100  | Zoroark            |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 100  | Mamoswine          |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Aerodactyl         |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Persian-Alola      |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Tornadus-Therian   |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Bruxish            |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Krookodile         |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Klefki             |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Deoxys-Speed       |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Serperior          |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Azumarill          |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Gastrodon          |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Crobat             |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Lilligant          |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Slurpuff           |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Spinda             |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Raichu-Alola       |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Drifblim           |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Alakazam           |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Hippowdon          |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Lanturn            |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
Out of these 178 matches, Camerupt was the twentieth most-used Pokemon. It was seen on 37 teams (10.39% of teams) with a 59.46% winrate. These are usage and winrates that are almost identical to those of Snorlax, which was used 42 times (11.80% usage rate) with a 59.52% winrate.

Of course, winrates and usage rates don't paint the full picture; Landorus-T only has a 51.48 winrate but that's because almost every team used a Landorus-T.

Nevertheless, my point is Camerupt, a lowly "Tier 5" mon, has been performing very comparably to Snorlax, which is considered to be Tier 2. Snorlax is far more splashable than Camerupt and doesn't take up a Mega Slot, so Camerupt definately deserves a lower ranking. But let's be real, a good segment of DOU regards Tier 5 as "trashmons that somebody once used with success" and Camerupt is nowhere near deserving of that label at this point.

1516532972662.png

Tapu Bulu | Tier 4 -> Tier 3

I won't write another novel, but Bulu's another underappreciated mon that's delivering results. It has an impressive winrate (including a 20% usage rate and 75% winrate for SPL 9), it hits like a truck, and it's more versatile than people give it credit for. It's not just a TR attacker; it works great on balance-oriented teams or even more offensive builds if using Choice Scarf.

Tier 3's description seems fitting of what this mon does, no?
"Pokemon that are generally strong, but can be dead weight in some matchups, don't have great matchups vs a lot of Tier 1 and 1.5, or are only particularly useful for checking a certain team style."
 

talkingtree

Using headphones to drown out your mind
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Doubles Captain
#20
Want icy wind? use tapu fini
Want TR? use Garde or Hoopa or Mew or Necrozma
Want ally switch? Use something with actual resists (the most important part of an ally switch mon) like rotom-wash, like Level 51 did
simply put this mon still functions as the same momentum drain is always was, and ally switch's effectiveness is dependent on its ability to bring two mons on the same field with complimentary resists together, which Cresselia does not provide.

Doing /ds ally switch and then picking the mon with the highest defensive statline doesn't make any sense because that's not how ally switch works - you need real resists that compliment potential partner mons so you can easily absorb the hydro pump that's aiming at your LandoT and such

As an additional point Mew can do all of these things better while bluffing more set possibilities and bringing transform

As for "it's kinda unexplored" this just solidifies my impression that this nom is focused solely on theorymon. As far as actual usage, it died and did nothing in the 1 spl game it was used in

The only thing Cresselia does uniquely is CM set, which so far has been bad

Also after typing this all I have just realized this was already moved to 5 so consider this Cresselia -> UR

To quickly address some points in the vote reasonings, Marshadow's departure doesn't mean that gross+gar aren't the two top usage megas, along with a decent abundance of things like Hoopa-U / Lax / LandoT / Tapu Bulu / Tyranitar etc that more than easily deal with Cresselia. If one seriously considers putting Cresselia on a team there is almost always a better mon that would fit, whether it would have a significantly better movepool, more offensive pressure, or actually usable defensive typing
Want all three in one mon? Oh look, you're stuck with Cresselia. Also, about "no usable resistances", you don't need them when Cress is so absurdly bulky: 252+ SpA Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Cresselia in Rain: 186-220 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Mew can do a similar role, but it does so considerably worse due to far lower bulk and a worse ability. Bluffing/bringing transform isn't really enough to make that set usable on Mew.

Cress may not have seen much usage in SPL, but it did fairly well in Kickoff.

I agree that CM Cress is bad, you should just use Necrozma if you wanna go for an offensive bulky Psychic-type.

Nominating something to fall when it was literally just nominated to that tier is pretty unlikely to result in anything, since I can't see enough minds changing from borderline 4 to UR. Cress might not be great at any one thing, but it does a whole collection of things at once and is quite difficult for some teams to take down while making its partners considerably more dangerous.
 
#21


Mega-Garde | Tier 4 -> Tier 5

I want to like this mon, but it doesnt really have great matchups right now, with all the Mega-Metagross/Kyub/Koko/Lando bulky offense teams running around. Garde is p good for chunking bulky pivots, but it just loses health to quickly, and bulky kyub/fini/zap team compositions have seen a pretty big downwards trend in usage in the last few months, with the popularity of koko/gross (aka the best core in the meta rn) and stealth rocks making pivoting around way more difficult to do for any length of time.

Spl and ssnls stats corroborate this, i dont think anyone brought a garde to spl, and i didnt see any doubles regulars bring garde to ssnls, but id probably have to double check the stats for that. so yeah, RIP garde.



Milotic | Tier 5 -> Tier 4

Coil Milo is p threatening with marsh's ban- because obviously theres no spec thief to steal all the milo boosts, but also because marsh being gone makes goth viable. Goth + milo prolly isnt quite as good as goth/lax, but its definitely more annoying bcuz sleep hax is fake and gay.



Goth | Tier 5 -> Tier 4 (but maybe tier 3, its p good bruh)

goth is fuckin gay, ban pls
 
#22
View attachment 98515
Camerupt | Tier 5 -> Tier 4

According to the 178 replays available to date for USUM, Camerupt's usage rate and win rate are surprisingly high (more on that below). Statistical rates aren't everything, of course, but it's also just abundantly clear that fullroom teams benefited greatly from USUM's introduction of Stakataka, Necrozma, and eventually the Marshadow ban.

Camerupt is pretty much the premium Mega when it comes to full Trick Room builds, and Tier 5 isn't an accurate spot for it. Tier 4 is intended to include "Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support but are still stronger than Pokemon in the tiers below," and that perfectly sums up what Camerupt is.

The replays that we have available (at the time of this post) to sample for usage stats include:
  • 86 replays from the USUM Kickoff Tour
  • 82 replays from Round 1 of DOU Seasonals
  • 10 replays from weeks 1 and 2 of SPL 9 (I left out Week 3 since there's only 2 replays there so far)
Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Landorus-Therian   |  169 |  47.47% |  51.48% |
| 2    | Tapu Fini          |  124 |  34.83% |  46.77% |
| 3    | Kyurem-Black       |   89 |  25.00% |  46.07% |
| 4    | Zapdos             |   88 |  24.72% |  43.18% |
| 5    | Volcanion          |   79 |  22.19% |  59.49% |
| 5    | Tapu Koko          |   79 |  22.19% |  56.96% |
| 7    | Tapu Lele          |   76 |  21.35% |  51.32% |
| 8    | Metagross          |   75 |  21.07% |  48.00% |
| 9    | Tapu Bulu          |   70 |  19.66% |  54.29% |
| 10   | Salamence          |   67 |  18.82% |  53.73% |
| 11   | Hoopa-Unbound      |   62 |  17.42% |  58.06% |
| 11   | Scrafty            |   62 |  17.42% |  53.23% |
| 11   | Tyranitar          |   62 |  17.42% |  38.71% |
| 14   | Stakataka          |   60 |  16.85% |  60.00% |
| 15   | Marshadow          |   55 |  15.45% |  58.18% |
| 16   | Amoonguss          |   45 |  12.64% |  48.89% |
| 17   | Snorlax            |   42 |  11.80% |  59.52% |
| 17   | Zygarde            |   42 |  11.80% |  54.76% |
| 19   | Gengar             |   38 |  10.67% |  39.47% |
| 20   | Camerupt           |   37 |  10.39% |  59.46% |
| 21   | Ferrothorn         |   36 |  10.11% |  58.33% |
| 22   | Aegislash          |   35 |   9.83% |  60.00% |
| 23   | Necrozma           |   33 |   9.27% |  57.58% |
| 24   | Celesteela         |   30 |   8.43% |  40.00% |
| 25   | Deoxys-Attack      |   28 |   7.87% |  57.14% |
| 25   | Kartana            |   28 |   7.87% |  35.71% |
| 27   | Heatran            |   27 |   7.58% |  44.44% |
| 28   | Victini            |   25 |   7.02% |  32.00% |
| 29   | Scizor             |   23 |   6.46% |  56.52% |
| 29   | Diancie            |   23 |   6.46% |  34.78% |
| 31   | Pelipper           |   20 |   5.62% |  50.00% |
| 32   | Charizard          |   19 |   5.34% |  57.89% |
| 33   | Genesect           |   15 |   4.21% |  46.67% |
| 34   | Bronzong           |   14 |   3.93% |  50.00% |
| 35   | Naganadel          |   13 |   3.65% |  53.85% |
| 35   | Mew                |   13 |   3.65% |  53.85% |
| 35   | Gothitelle         |   13 |   3.65% |  46.15% |
| 35   | Cresselia          |   13 |   3.65% |  30.77% |
| 39   | Blacephalon        |   12 |   3.37% |  25.00% |
| 40   | Kingdra            |   11 |   3.09% |  36.36% |
| 41   | Rotom-Wash         |   10 |   2.81% |  50.00% |
| 41   | Ninetales-Alola    |   10 |   2.81% |  10.00% |
| 43   | Swampert           |    9 |   2.53% |  66.67% |
| 43   | Manectric          |    9 |   2.53% |  55.56% |
| 43   | Gyarados           |    9 |   2.53% |  44.44% |
| 43   | Mimikyu            |    9 |   2.53% |  11.11% |
| 47   | Meloetta           |    8 |   2.25% |  87.50% |
| 48   | Milotic            |    7 |   1.97% |  71.43% |
| 48   | Torkoal            |    7 |   1.97% |  57.14% |
| 48   | Mawile             |    7 |   1.97% |  28.57% |
| 48   | Whimsicott         |    7 |   1.97% |  28.57% |
| 52   | Togedemaru         |    6 |   1.69% | 100.00% |
| 52   | Venusaur           |    6 |   1.69% |  66.67% |
| 52   | Terrakion          |    6 |   1.69% |  66.67% |
| 52   | Abomasnow          |    6 |   1.69% |  50.00% |
| 52   | Hariyama           |    6 |   1.69% |  50.00% |
| 52   | Porygon2           |    6 |   1.69% |  50.00% |
| 52   | Excadrill          |    6 |   1.69% |   0.00% |
| 59   | Ludicolo           |    5 |   1.40% |  60.00% |
| 59   | Chansey            |    5 |   1.40% |  20.00% |
| 59   | Staraptor          |    5 |   1.40% |  20.00% |
| 59   | Incineroar         |    5 |   1.40% |   0.00% |
| 63   | Togekiss           |    4 |   1.12% |  75.00% |
| 63   | Rotom-Heat         |    4 |   1.12% |  75.00% |
| 63   | Gardevoir          |    4 |   1.12% |  75.00% |
| 63   | Suicune            |    4 |   1.12% |  75.00% |
| 63   | Pheromosa          |    4 |   1.12% |  50.00% |
| 63   | Muk-Alola          |    4 |   1.12% |  50.00% |
| 63   | Kommo-o            |    4 |   1.12% |  50.00% |
| 63   | Thundurus          |    4 |   1.12% |  25.00% |
| 71   | Thundurus-Therian  |    3 |   0.84% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Chandelure         |    3 |   0.84% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Clefairy           |    3 |   0.84% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Ampharos           |    3 |   0.84% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Bisharp            |    3 |   0.84% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Shaymin-Sky        |    3 |   0.84% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Sylveon            |    3 |   0.84% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Drampa             |    3 |   0.84% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Volcarona          |    3 |   0.84% |  33.33% |
| 71   | Politoed           |    3 |   0.84% |  33.33% |
| 71   | Landorus           |    3 |   0.84% |  33.33% |
| 71   | Marowak-Alola      |    3 |   0.84% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Porygon-Z          |    2 |   0.56% | 100.00% |
| 83   | Seismitoad         |    2 |   0.56% | 100.00% |
| 83   | Hydreigon          |    2 |   0.56% | 100.00% |
| 83   | Slowking           |    2 |   0.56% |  50.00% |
| 83   | Oranguru           |    2 |   0.56% |  50.00% |
| 83   | Spiritomb          |    2 |   0.56% |  50.00% |
| 83   | Tornadus           |    2 |   0.56% |  50.00% |
| 83   | Lopunny            |    2 |   0.56% |  50.00% |
| 83   | Entei              |    2 |   0.56% |  50.00% |
| 83   | Wishiwashi         |    2 |   0.56% |  50.00% |
| 83   | Hitmontop          |    2 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Moltres            |    2 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Slowbro            |    2 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Shuckle            |    2 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Araquanid          |    2 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Arcanine           |    2 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Cofagrigus         |    2 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Shiinotic          |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 100  | Blastoise          |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 100  | Houndoom           |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 100  | Latias             |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 100  | Blissey            |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 100  | Greninja           |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 100  | Keldeo             |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 100  | Zoroark            |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 100  | Mamoswine          |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Aerodactyl         |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Persian-Alola      |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Tornadus-Therian   |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Bruxish            |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Krookodile         |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Klefki             |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Deoxys-Speed       |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Serperior          |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Azumarill          |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Gastrodon          |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Crobat             |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Lilligant          |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Slurpuff           |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Spinda             |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Raichu-Alola       |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Drifblim           |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Alakazam           |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Hippowdon          |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Lanturn            |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
Out of these 178 matches, Camerupt was the twentieth most-used Pokemon. It was seen on 37 teams (10.39% of teams) with a 59.46% winrate. These are usage and winrates that are almost identical to those of Snorlax, which was used 42 times (11.80% usage rate) with a 59.52% winrate.

Of course, winrates and usage rates don't paint the full picture; Landorus-T only has a 51.48 winrate but that's because almost every team used a Landorus-T.

Nevertheless, my point is Camerupt, a lowly "Tier 5" mon, has been performing very comparably to Snorlax, which is considered to be Tier 2. Snorlax is far more splashable than Camerupt and doesn't take up a Mega Slot, so Camerupt definately deserves a lower ranking. But let's be real, a good segment of DOU regards Tier 5 as "trashmons that somebody once used with success" and Camerupt is nowhere near deserving of that label at this point.

View attachment 98516
Tapu Bulu | Tier 4 -> Tier 3

I won't write another novel, but Bulu's another underappreciated mon that's delivering results. It has an impressive winrate (including a 20% usage rate and 75% winrate for SPL 9), it hits like a truck, and it's more versatile than people give it credit for. It's not just a TR attacker; it works great on balance-oriented teams or even more offensive builds if using Choice Scarf.

Tier 3's description seems fitting of what this mon does, no?
"Pokemon that are generally strong, but can be dead weight in some matchups, don't have great matchups vs a lot of Tier 1 and 1.5, or are only particularly useful for checking a certain team style."
Somthing I think you should mention, bulu is rather bulky, and with help of AV and horn leech, it's extreamly hard to kill, wood hammer is a rediculously powerful stab move under grassy terrain, and other nice coverage moves, including superpower/natures madness/ rock slide to hit fire types
 

miltankmilk

**hypnotic recorder plays in background**
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#23
A few noms of my own, these will be the last ones we vote on for this round but feel free to keep nomming and we'll get em on the next round.

Mega Manectric 5 -> 3 (or 4)
Mane is way stronger than I initially gave it credit for. Its very 'anti-meta' in that it threatens Gengar and Metagross with its speed, ability and coverage. Dropping tbolt for snarl isn't even bad because of how great volt switch is, even better when paired with gothlax. Very solid mon thats winning a lot of games in SPL.

Snorlax 2 -> 1
Snorlax defines the meta right now, its incredibly centralizing, very powerful and even tougher to KO. When paired with the right support this thing wins games on its own. I think lax competes with metagross to be the best pokemon in the tier between BD and curse sets and should be moved up to represent this.
Gothitelle 5->2
I'm not gonna say too much on this because the reasoning isn't different than the goth ->3 nom, just I think it deserves to be higher. This is more a technicality so we can vote between 2, 3 and 4 when placing this mon. Fuck shadow tag tho.
Mega Diancie 3 ->4
Who uses this mon? Its not good and was initially overtiered (my b) and I think its past time that we move it down. Most popular and strongest megas are Metagross and Gengar which really dont help Diancie's case. Won't say too much because this mon is just pretty clearly bad or at least worse than other tier 3 mons.
Mega Venusaur 4 -> 5
Same story as Diancie, I don't see anyone using venusaur, the meta is just super hostile to it. On paper its not terrible but in practice its just not worth using. Maybe we should UR this.
 

miltankmilk

**hypnotic recorder plays in background**
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#24
Double post for shifts
Staraptor UR-> 5
Demantoid: Okay, kamishkaze is pretty good at performing its role on certain teams.

kamikaze: sure

MajorBowman: Yeah, honestly I think this is a better gambit mon than Victini just because Intimidate is so useful

Marilli: yeah sure i liked sams team

Memoric: ok i guess lol

Miltankmilk: Yeah I think it’s good enough for 5, sam and 51 have shown its got a niche.

Talkingtree: Sure. Tier 5 is pretty huge right now, but I think that’s indicative of the meta we’re in - plenty of mons are decently viable, but only a few are truly good.

Milotic 5 -> 4
Demantoid: Yes better than tier 5 mons but not an elite water like fini or volcanion.

kamikaze: Yes. I have made fun of nvakna strats for the 3 years I have known him but this is like one of the few things I have come to respect as a legitimate threat

MajorBowman: Yeah 4 is fine but NOT BECAUSE OF COIL THAT SET IS SO BAD

Marilli: yeah sure nvakna is cute

Memoric: this is now relevant again so yeah i suppose

Miltankmilk: yeah fuck milotic, something you have to keep in mind building again.

Talkingtree: Coil+Hypno merits this going to 4, but I wouldn’t want it going any higher. Usually fairly easy to handle if you play it smart.

Zygarde 3->2
Demantoid: Yes, Band does good damage to most things while DD is a lot easier to set up currently.

kamikaze: Yes Zygarde is really good again

MajorBowman: Yes, I’m liking Zygarde a lot more lately. Band and DD are both great sets

Marilli: yeah sure this does damages

Memoric: big zy is big heat again as it can do a lot of good damage, sure

Miltankmilk: Yeah zygarde’s heat, DD and CB are both great right now.

Talkingtree: Absolutely. Ground resistances are super difficult to come by, after building + testing with it for Bowman’s week 3 team I’m team Zygarde again.

Mega-Garde 4 -> 5
Demantoid: 5, I actually built a team that I liked with it one time but then I decided other versions with other megas were better.

kamikaze: 5 rest in peace.

MajorBowman: Yeah poor thing, I had hopes for it when it was first released but it’s just fallen so far from grace. Rest well sweet princess.

Marilli: yeah sure this sees no use

Memoric: yup lol this just has an insane time in the meta

Miltankmilk: yes same as marilli, nobody uses this pokemon gen7 nerfs really fucked it up.

Talkingtree: 5. The meta’s bad for Garde with people realizing the value of strong physical attackers (Icium Kyube, CB Zygarde, etc) and the commonness of bulky Steel-types like Mega Metagross, Stakataka, Mega Scizor, and Ferrothorn that just completely shut down Mega Gardevoir. Full TR is by far the most dominant TR build right now, and the Pixilate nerf leaves Mega Gardevoir unable to deal enough damage to keep up with the hyper offensive nature of those builds. Probably wrote more than I needed to on this one but I sort of had to reason my way through this one and figured I may as well put my thoughts down for everyone.

Gothitelle 5 -> 2 or 3 or 4 (Pick one)
Demantoid: Tier 3, doesn’t really fit on teams too easily but can be very good.

kamikaze: 3 is fine.

MajorBowman: ok definitely not 2 immediately, want to say 4 but would be fine with 3 too. Goth is definitely a key part of what’s probably the biggest problem in DOU right now, just not sure how responsible Goth is itself

Marilli: 2, but if i cant then 3. The lack of versatility in composition is made up for the fact that the Pokemon is absolutely busted.


Memoric: 3, i think 2 might be a bit of an overreaction but this has proven to be good with the right strategies™ trappin stuff can end up being pretty lame

Miltankmilk: shadow realm this pokemon, but tier 2 for now. Goth is super good right now and shadow tag’s broken. Ban

Talkingtree: Tier 3. I think 2 is a little bit reactionary, though I’m willing to have my mind changed later on. Trapping is great and all but the Goth user has to play very carefully to keep positioning and benefit the partner that most needs the trap at the perfect time. Goth might not be able to do much on its own, but it demands attention if you want to have the option to switch.

Camerupt 5 -> 4
Demantoid: Yes, I’d say this mon is similar to Mega Swampert, in that it can destroy unprepared teams but only fits on one team style, which is tier 4 currently

kamikaze: Yes

MajorBowman: Yeah sure, agree with Demantoid’s assessment 100%

Marilli: yeah tr is strong ig??? Sees more use than most 5’s

Memoric: this is actually pretty good and sees solid usage in one of the stronger builds in the meta rn so yeah of course

Miltankmilk: abstain

Talkingtree: Fullroom is on an upswing right now and its best variant includes Camel, rise this man. GenOne said all that needs to be said here.

Tapu Bulu 4 -> 3
Demantoid: Yes, bulu hits really hard and is a great offensive and defensive answer to both ground-types in the tier.

kamikaze: Abstain

MajorBowman: Yes, great pivot and Grassy Terrain can do wonders for a lot of teams. Also hits like a truck under the right conditions (which aren’t too hard to line up)

Marilli: abstain

Memoric: Yes, it’s p great at pivoting i think it’s p neat as it’s also p strong for a pokemon that id mostly use for like defensive stuff imo. Being a neat grass that resists ground is p neato

Miltankmilk: Yes, I think bulu is very good right now. Pair with shadow tag for best results. More offensive sets on Bulu are really potent but its super matchup based so i wouldn’t move it higher than 3.

Talkingtree: Yes yes yes I <3 Bulu. One of the few Ground resistances that’s available in the metagame, great terrain disruption, and it’s super strong. Steels are annoying but that’s what partners are for.

Mega Manectric 5 - > 3 or 4
Demantoid: 3, yes only one of the teams with it in spl used gothlax so I’d say it is still able to fit on other teams. It’s speed and ability to be a great pivot really help it when compared to other megas.

kamikaze: 4. I think 3 may be pushing it. I think Mega Mane shines on very specific teams that benefit from fast pivoting into threats via Volt Switch while also appreciating the Intimidate to help setup.

MajorBowman: 4, honestly I’m not as impressed with Mane as everyone else. It just seems like people use it for Intimidate + fast volt switch which is great and all but doesn’t seem *that* good when we have stuff like U-turn Lando/Raptor available too

Marilli: 4

Memoric: 4, mane is p hot but im not that confident in saying it’s 3 material just yet.

Miltankmilk: 3, made nom

Talkingtree: Yes to 4, abstain to 3. Mane/Goth/Lax is incredibly oppressive when used well, but outside of that it hasn’t seen much use, so it’s tough to say whether Manectric is widely viable.

Snorlax 2 -> 1
Demantoid: Yes, Princess Mishiimono has been eating lots of Mc Donalds to make herself very fat and hard to kill.

kamikaze: This pokemon is outstanding and well deserving of Tier 1. People started using Belly Drum more recently and its proven to be an immense threat without support and even greater threat with support.

MajorBowman: Yeah for sure, lax is crazy good right now. Drum and Curse are both scary and can fit on a lot of teams. Curse Lax especially can just kinda get thrown onto a team and doesn’t need much support, but it really isn’t even that hard to support Lax at all

Marilli: tier 0
thicc

Memoric: 1 this is absolutely lame lol so yeah; it pretty much runs the tier

Miltankmilk: yes made nom

Talkingtree: Lax is once again tier-defining, send it to Tier 1.

Mega Diancie 3 ->4
Demantoid: Yes, much less threatening than the other megas currently in 3 (zor and ttar)

kamikaze: Yes 4

MajorBowman: agree with marilli, probably belongs in 5. Pretty similar to Garde imo in that it used to be hot but is really hard to use now

Marilli: nobody uses this, 5.

Memoric: 4 lol, i dont see this belonging with most of the stuff in 3

Miltankmilk: 4 made nom

Talkingtree: 4’s good for now, saying 5 is premature imo. Diancie still does stuff and it’s clearly better than what’s in Tier 5. But yeah it doesn’t belong in 3.

Mega Venusaur 4 -> 5 or UR
Demantoid: 5, can be decent but never really fits on teams not built around it

kamikaze: UR for now. Too much metagross both punishing it and competing for mega slot when you can also amoong for the typing

MajorBowman: UR, Venusaur’s 2 weeks of fame during Snake Draft are over and people have gone back to never touching it

Marilli: why use this when u can use a better mon Amoonguss that doesn’t take a mega slot

:joy:

Memoric: i forgot this exists lol

Miltankmilk: yes made nom we’ll just send this to UR now

Talkingtree: UR. I get what this theoretically does… but never have I wanted to add it to a team. Generally too passive without providing enough support.

VR Changes

Staraptor UR -> 5
Milotic 5->4
Zygarde 3->2
Mega Gardevoir 4->5
Gothitelle 5->3
Mega Camerupt 5->4
Tapu Bulu 4->3
Mega Manectric 5->4
Snorlax 2->1
Mega Diancie 3 -> 4
Mega Venusaur 4 -> UR
 
#25
Politoed: 4>5. It's a very nice rain setter, is bulky enough to survive a few hits, has a very nice movepool including encore, perish song, exc. along with nice attacking moves. It has a few sets it can use, such as eject button, bulky, or offensive set, and I believe is on the same level as pelliper as a rain setter.


Ferrothorn 2>3 I don't believe that ferro is only useful for checking "certain team styles", I think it's great in general, for destroying litteraly every tapu, hitting hard against some big threats, and healing (fairly) reliably with leech seed. It's quite bulky, with a great defensive typing, and a respectable attack stat, with access to the rare steel and grass typing that can destroy every tapu with gyro ball, or fini with power whip.
Mega charizard X 5>UR, I've seen charX, and experimented with it myself a lot in the last week or 2 and it's worked quite well. It has nice coverage moves, including thunder punch that can threaten fini, and can OHKO most fini sets after a DD. Also really nice to deturr rain leads by bluffing a char Y. All of that along with good overall stats makes it worthy of tier 5.
 

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