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Akaru Kokuyo's Kawaii Neko
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#26

Mega Salamence Tier 1 -> Tier 2

Mence is just not as good as it was before, I look at tier 1 mons and i don't think it deserves a place there with the other meta defining mons. Although it may be the most splashable mega this should not be enough to remain on tier 1, mence is at the same level than koko, kyurem or zapdos, for example. Also, about the "most splashable mega" thing, this is arguable, 4 uses on 4 weeks of spl, if I didn't miscount, is pretty bad for a mon with this title and also, for a tier 1 pokemon. DD set is still threatening, yes, but with metagross, kyurem or full trick room dominating the tier there are much more ways to check it than ever before.


Blacephalon Tier 5 -> UR

It just fires off an attack then die, i've never seen it doing anything other than that and it even fails to ko bulky mons. I have never found any good reason to use it. You're probably better using deoxys tbh :I



Incineroar UR -> Tier 5

Ok so I've been liking this mon a lot lately, its match up vs gothlax teams is :sogood: and a fire type pokemon with access to knock off is so valuable on the tier right now (it checks both snorlax and ferrothorn) since there's not a good fighting type anymore. Fake out and uturn are probably its other best two moves but snarl and wow are also cool tools it can use #FreeIntimidate tho :(
 
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#27

Mega Salamence Tier 1 -> Tier 2

Mence is just not as good as it was before, I look at tier 1 mons and i don't think it deserves a place there with the other meta defining mons. Although it may be the most splashable mega this should not be enough to remain on tier 1, mence is at the same level than koko, kyurem or zapdos, for example. Also, about the "most splashable mega" thing, this is arguable, 4 uses on 4 weeks of spl, if I didn't miscount, is pretty bad for a mon with this title and also, for a tier 1 pokemon. DD set is still threatening, yes, but with metagross, kyurem or full trick room dominating the tier there are much more ways to check it than ever before.


Blacephalon Tier 5 -> UR

It just fires off an attack then die, i've never seen it doing anything other than that and it even fails to ko bulky mons. I have never found any good reason to use it. You're probably better using deoxys tbh :I



Incineroar UR -> Tier 5

Ok so I've been liking this mon a lot lately, its match up vs gothlax teams is :sogood: and a fire type pokemon with access to knock off is so valuable on the tier right now (it checks both snorlax and ferrothorn) since there's not a good fighting type anymore. Fake out and uturn are probably its other best two moves but snarl and wow are also cool tools it can use #FreeIntimidate tho :(
Ok so first of all, the thought of mega mence to tier 2 is rediculous. It has insane offensive ability, respectable bulk, many sets it can run, mixed sets so that it doesn't even get hurt by intimidate. I've also seen pure special sets run a few times (and tried it myself) and it works reasonably well, and screws over people who switch in for the intimidate. Second of all, tailwind... it's one of the most reliable users of tailwind.
 

KyleCole

I see through the lies of the jedi
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#28
Ok so first of all, the thought of mega mence to tier 2 is rediculous. It has insane offensive ability, respectable bulk, many sets it can run, mixed sets so that it doesn't even get hurt by intimidate. I've also seen pure special sets run a few times (and tried it myself) and it works reasonably well, and screws over people who switch in for the intimidate. Second of all, tailwind... it's one of the most reliable users of tailwind.
Hey Mr.jrenner.

I’ve read a few of your posts, and whether you’re aware of it or not (I’m almost positive you are) you get a lot of criticism from the dou community in general and I’m here to let you know why that is, even though you seem to have a genuine interest in dou and a fair concept of what is “good” and what isn’t.

Even though you’re coming from a place of good intentions, your perspective on the VR is different from the one the vr council takes when evaluating the actual place a Pokemon has/receives. When you take a Pokemon, in this case Salamence, And look at viability in terms of general attributes like “bulk” and “intimidate” you get a good idea of why Salamence should be used instead of Pokemon like galvantula, wartortle, and aagron, but not why it should be used against what is currently “meta”.

You’re right that mega Salamence has a lot of great qualities, but the vr council looks more closely at how Salamence does against what is currently used in tournaments like Snorlax, metagross, fini, and manectric.

If you - jrenner, want to change or keep a Pokémon’s position on the VR, you need to look more closely at what specific trends are present in the metagame, and how each mon stacks up
 
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#29
Hey Mr.jrenner.

I’ve read a few of your posts, and whether you’re aware of it or not (I’m almost positive you are) you get a lot of criticism from the dou community in general and I’m here to let you know why that is, even though you seem to have a genuine interest in dou and a fair concept in what is “good” and what isn’t good.

Even though you’re coming from a place of good intentions, your perspective on the VR is Different from the one the vr council takes when evaluating the actual place a Pokemon has/receives. When you take a Pokemon, in this case Salamence, And look at viability in terms of general attributes like “bulk” and “intimidate” you get a good idea of why Salamence should be used instead of Pokemon like galvantula, wartortle, and aagron , but not why it should be used against what is currently “meta”.

You’re right that mega Salamence has a lot of great qualities, but the Vr council Looks more closely at how Salamence does against what is currently more commonly used in tournaments. Specifically (right now) Pokemon like Snorlax, metagross, fini, and manectric.

If you - jrenner, want to change or keep a Pokémon’s position on the VR, you need to look more closely at what specific trends are present in the metagame, and how each mon stacks up
I have also looked into, and am aware of the current meta. I (usually) only mention things that are in the current meta when mentioning things it can do, such as OHKOs, things it can check, exc. and I assume the VR council is aware of the current meta and doesn't need any info on it. That's why I only mention atributes of the mon. So if you'd like me to go through and talk about the current meta I will. I understand that the current meta has a lot of trick room, or semi room teams which makes things like lax a problem. Even outside of TR lax can hit mence pretty hard. Other major threats, such as fini (and the other omnipresent tapus) could cause it big problems. But due to the fact that only koko will outspeed it, and the use of scarf on lele will make that way less of a problem. Kyurem black is one of the other problems, but a lot of kyuBs are leads, and can be taken care of quickly. On the chance it's not, mence can get TW off fast and switch out. The other large TW user is zapdos, which is threatened by almost all of the same things as mence (such as kyuB), although zapdos sets are much more bulky, and can avoid almost all of the things that will normally OHKO mence. Even with that in mind, mence still has a very high offensive presence and is an incredible user of TW.
 

miltankmilk

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#30
I have also looked into, and am aware of the current meta. I (usually) only mention things that are in the current meta when mentioning things it can do, such as OHKOs, things it can check, exc. and I assume the VR council is aware of the current meta and doesn't need any info on it. That's why I only mention atributes of the mon. So if you'd like me to go through and talk about the current meta I will. I understand that the current meta has a lot of trick room, or semi room teams which makes things like lax a problem. Even outside of TR lax can hit mence pretty hard. Other major threats, such as fini (and the other omnipresent tapus) could cause it big problems. But due to the fact that only koko will outspeed it, and the use of scarf on lele will make that way less of a problem. Kyurem black is one of the other problems, but a lot of kyuBs are leads, and can be taken care of quickly. On the chance it's not, mence can get TW off fast and switch out. The other large TW user is zapdos, which is threatened by almost all of the same things as mence (such as kyuB), although zapdos sets are much more bulky, and can avoid almost all of the things that will normally OHKO mence. Even with that in mind, mence still has a very high offensive presence and is an incredible user of TW.
Based on the last time mence was nommed to tier 2 I can't speak for all of the VR Council but I can certainly speak for some of them. You are very much looking at Salamence vs the meta in a vacuum and that is a dangerous line of reasoning to use on viability rankings. I support mence going to tier 2 and hopefully my reasoning sheds some light on what Kyle was trying to tell you Jrenner.

Mence is still absolutely a dangerous pokemon, with DD being the scarier of the 2 sets, but its "utility set" has seen a steep dropoff in viability. By utility I mean the tailwind mixed set, this set was what I believe made Salamence tier 1 to begin with but its just not as good anymore. A few reasons for this: a) the rise of Mega Metagross as the dominant (mega) pokemon in this format, immediately pressuring with Ice Punch and being a very sturdy Flying-resist. b) the dominance of Snorlax and Co. make mence a liability vs both BD and Curse Snorlax as setting tailwind can often hurt your matchup vs these kinds of teams and its flying-type moves generally bounce off of Lax. c) Electric types are very good right now, specifically Koko, Zapdos, and Manectric (zap's taken a bit of a hit in viability cuz lax is broken but thats another conversation). You correctly identified that these pokemon give Mence trouble but it didn't seem to affect your calculations. Last thing is that FullRoom is very good right now and that is not good for Salamence as you identified. I won't really touch on the DD set right now because I don't think thats really a deciding factor in Mence being 1 or 2.

Last thing I'll say is that Mence is only as good as the pokemon in tier 2, at least the top half of them. To me Mence is on the same tier, (if not lower), than Mega Gengar, Aegislash, Koko, Volcanion, Kyurem-B. Mence is just simply not better than the pokemon in tier 2 so I'll be voting to move it down to tier 2.
 

Psynergy

Fighting defines me, and I will not lose.
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#31

Blacephalon Tier 5 -> UR

It just fires off an attack then die, i've never seen it doing anything other than that and it even fails to ko bulky mons. I have never found any good reason to use it. You're probably better using deoxys tbh :I
This is kinda minor but I want to go back to this because I've used this a lot thanks to nvakna and actually think Blacephalon is worth the rank. I've hesitated to bring it up because I don't have the replays to back up something that's ultimately no better than Tier 5, but people sorely undervalue Fire-types right now and I don't think that's entirely justified. Yeah Victini is a generally better Scarf Fire-type, but Scarf Blacephalon is a really nice cleaner that has absurd snowballing potential with Beast Boost Heat Waves while Overheat gives it good burst damage if it needs to snipe something early on. It also maintains the edge over every relevant Scarfer between Fire STAB, Shadow Ball and HP Ice.

Specs Blacephalon is also underrated, between Tailwind support and its huge Heat Waves this thing can easily break down teams provided you have something to threaten Fini (Zapdos can do all this!). Z-Moves are also cool but I find it needs the Choice item to maintain offensive pressure, which is a significant limiting factor. It has a lot of trouble with the bulky meta too and isn't a fan of Fini and Snorlax being so common (this thing gets Knock Off though!) but I think this thing is still very usable with proper support. It also got better with Marsh ban and would get better without lax
 
#32
Nominating stakataka for 2. It has high attack, beast boost, trick room, nice offensive typing, an unpredictable number of item options (z moves, berries, exc). Gyro hits extreamly hard, and can OHKO every tapu except fini (which can't switch into it) and will move first in TR. if TR is active it can also deal with a lot of its threats, such as lando-t (after a beast boost). It works quite well on semi room or TR teams, in conjunction with the notorious snorlax, and has the ability to destroy a lot of big threats in the meta. M-gengar gets OHKOed, m-metagross will get OHKOed by tech rage many other slightly less prevelant mons get completely destroyed by it. These include: tyranitar, kyuB, hoopa-U, tran, and volcanion (carrying T-rage). It's much better then the other the other mons in tier 3. It's an incredible mon on TR and semiroom teams, and once it gets snowballing it's incredibly hard to stop.
 
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#34
+2 4 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 632-748 (166.3 - 196.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:psyduck:

As to why gene is not tier 2 level, it checks a lot but cant check everything with only 4 slots. Tbolt and energy ball are both very niche options which end up leaving gene weak to other bigger threats like opposing steels. Its got speed issues so kinda needs a scarf, so it cant even switch up moves and can be easier to play around (av is ok but for a bit of fatness you lose out on genesects best trait, outspeeding and koing lots). Defensively, it doesnt have the stats a steel wants or needs and still takes a bit too much damage from attacks to be a sole steel on a team. It falls into the same bracket as excadrill, sure its a steel but youre crazy if its your only steel.
 
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#35
If you’re going to post damage calcs for your six move Genesect, please post the entire damage calc, and not some abbreviated nonsense

Oh and make sure both Pokémon are level 100 too, some of these calcs are really sketchy
1) I'm using 6 moves to show how it can use different sets, 2) what calcs are "sketchy"? I'll check them over but I'm pretty sure it's accurate.
 

miltankmilk

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#36
1) I'm using 6 moves to show how it can use different sets, 2) what calcs are "sketchy"? I'll check them over but I'm pretty sure it's accurate.
Literally half of your calcs are doctored in some way. You blatantly omitted parts of calcs and de-capitalized parts of some calcs to somehow try to get your point across. Here are some real calcs to show you what really happens.
+1 252 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar-Mega: 223-264 (85.1 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Very much not +0
+1 4 SpA Genesect Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Swampert-Mega: 420-496 (123.1 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You somehow came up with a +2 genesect here, not sure what 7th move your gene is running to boost further but I am intrigued.
+1 4 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Landorus-Therian: 364-432 (95.5 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
you omitted the +1 and Landorus' HP stat here so I included them now

Here are the most notable examples, post full calcs and ideally more relevant calcs or replays because we are all aware a STAB U-turn will KO Hoopa-U
 

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