Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

[Gary]

ULTRA SUMO is finally here, and while it hasn't brought nearly as many changes as ORAS or a new generation, it's still going to shake the meta with the new changes. Here you can discuss all aspects of the current metagame, such as your overall thoughts on it, viable or underrated sets, meta trends, etc. While this is an overall lax thread, unfortunately due to past users ruining it for everyone else, some ground rules have to be put in place. If you choose to not read them, and break any of them, your post could be deleted and you might be infracted as well. They're simple to follow, but we'll see:

• Keep one liners at a minimum, meaning try to post something somewhat informative
• Keep the discussion OU related only. All tiers have their respective meta discussion threads
• No trolling or flaming other users, much like any other thread
• No suspect talk. It's fine to mention how you personally think something is unhealthy or too much for the tier, but do not turn this into a potential suspect discussion thread. No "plz ban this Pokemon" posts.
• Do NOT talk about dropping Pokemon from Ubers. This is not the place for that. PM a council member if you want more information
• NO THEORYMONING. If you haven't bothered to actually play the metagame yet, please do not bother posting in here. Uninformed posts will only lead to bad discussion, and will be deleted regardless of length
• To go off the last point, please no "what would the metagame be w/o or with x Pokemon in it", because this is not relevant to the CURRENT META. Current meta meaning, not past or future related. C U R R E N T.

Move Tutors: https://pastebin.com/CeZcXs7n
Base Stats: https://pastebin.com/j8CnVgCc
New Level up/Egg Moves: https://pastebin.com/dFCXVEv0
New Moves: https://pastebin.com/i83MBkQQ

New Pokemon (OU Relevant)

======

804 - Naganadel - 804
======
Base Stats: 073.073.073.127.073.121 (BST: 540)
EV Yield: 0.0.0.3.0.0
Abilities: Beast Boost (1) | Beast Boost (2) | Beast Boost (H)
Type: Poison / Dragon
Item 1 (50%):
Item 2 (5%):
Item 3 (1%):
EXP Group: Slow
Egg Group: Undiscovered
Hatch Cycles: 120
Height: 03.6 m, Weight: 150.0 kg, Color: Purple
Move Tutors: Signal Beam, Gunk Shot, Uproar, Dragon Pulse, Iron Tail, Snore, Heat Wave, Tailwind, Sky Attack, Shock Wave, Gastro Acid, Helping Hand, Outrage, Snatch, Ally Switch, Throat Chop, Laser Focus

======
805 - Stakataka - 805
======
Base Stats: 061.131.211.053.101.013 (BST: 570)
EV Yield: 0.0.3.0.0.0
Abilities: Beast Boost (1) | Beast Boost (2) | Beast Boost (H)
Type: Rock / Steel
Item 1 (50%):
Item 2 (5%):
Item 3 (1%):
EXP Group: Slow
Egg Group: Undiscovered
Hatch Cycles: 120
Height: 05.5 m, Weight: 820.0 kg, Color: Gray
Move Tutors: Iron Head, Magic Coat, Block, Gravity, Magnet Rise, Iron Defense, Superpower, Zen Headbutt, Bind, Snore, Role Play, Magic Room, Wonder Room, Recycle, Stealth Rock, Skill Swap, Telekinesis, Ally Switch, Stomping Tantrum

======
806 - Blacephalon - 806
======
Base Stats: 053.127.053.151.079.107 (BST: 570)
EV Yield: 0.0.0.3.0.0
Abilities: Beast Boost (1) | Beast Boost (2) | Beast Boost (H)
Type: Fire / Ghost
Item 1 (50%):
Item 2 (5%):
Item 3 (1%):
EXP Group: Slow
Egg Group: Undiscovered
Hatch Cycles: 120
Height: 01.8 m, Weight: 013.0 kg, Color: White
Move Tutors: Uproar, Foul Play, Last Resort, Snore, Knock Off, Heat Wave, Pain Split, Spite, After You, Trick, Recycle

Significant New Tutor Moves

Landorus-T: Defog
Toxapex: Knock Off
Magearna: Heal Bell
Battle Bond Greninja: Gunk Shot
Tapu Koko: Defog
Kartana: Knock Off, Tailwind (this Pokemon does not get Superpower)
Tapu Bulu: Iron Defense, Synthesis
Rotom-W: Defog
Tapu Fini: Knock Off
Serperior: Defog
Tornadus-T: Defog
Thundurus: Defog
Azumarill: Liquidation
Gliscor: Defog
Hydreigon: Defog
Araquanid: Sticky Web
Ribombee: Sticky Web
Buzzwole: Swords Dance Drain Punch

Blacklist:
Xatu
Bronzong

 

[Gary]

I'm keeping this locked until Monday just to give people a chance to play the meta a bit. Hopefully this will cut down on the theorymoning.

 

[Finchinator]

Just want to post this as a reminder that this thread is intended to be used for healthy metagame discussion, not as a serious suspect discussion or as a place to complain about whatever you dislike about the metagame in the early stages. The OU Council will very much be on top of things and act in the future if any tiering decisions must be made. If any posts happen to not keep this in mind, then the OU moderator team will be quick to delete and/or infract them. I am looking forward to the metagame developing and seeing what all of these new toys can do and threads like these can be great for sharing ideas and perspectives, but they have to be handled properly if they want to be of any use at all, so keep this in mind.

Thread will still be locked until Monday ofc, but felt the need to put some emphasis on this point beforehand.

 

[Gary]

Unlocked. Dear god help me.

 

[Nuked]

I've been using Rotom-W a bit recently and I think it's a nice defogger and momentum gainer. It checks a lot of the common SR users like Lando-T and Heatran and Defogs on them and is just in general pretty solid, and with lowered Tangrowth and Zygarde usage I'm liking it a lot more in this meta.

I haven't had overwhelming success with Blacephalon but it has a couple of matchups where it's super brutal. I think it's one of those mons where if you don't adequately prepare for it, things aren't going to go very well for you at all, but it isn't that hard to deal with assuming you pack the adequate preparation. It still has those brutal Shadow Balls though, but there's just certain mons like Chansey and Tyranitar where it's really prediction heavy.

Gliscor has gone from a shitty, outclassed Pokemon to a viable Defogger. I've found that it's pretty reliable at Defogging in general seeing as it can take most hits and I actually think it's a better Defogger than Landorus, but it's nothing amazing.

All in all I don't think that much has changed. The additions are cool and the new defoggers are going to find defined niches in the metagame but I can't see any major meta shifts from these new drops.

 

[paoisd]

i think mega lop is amazing rn and a top 5 mega. pup+quick attack is busted and priority in general is ridiculous.the speed tier is a blessing from god this gen being able to outspeed naganadel (pre beastboost) and outspeed blacephalon ofc. i think fighting types in general have gotten much better as they are able to wear down steels for naganadel and one thing ive been really liking is hawlucha, specifically lucha+bulu.

EDIT: Zeraora is currently unreleased.

 

[Colonel M]

Okay so as the tier stands so far:

Naganadel - no surprise, it's damn good. Nasty Plot / Draco Meteor / Sludge Wave / Fire Blast @ Dragonium Z is just rolling all over offensive teams and takes advantage of a lot of passive teams as well. There's little that realistically stops it reliably - we have Specially Defensive Heatran, AV Tyranitar, and then revenge killing options is Scarf Greninja and Scarf Ditto. AV Tyranitar is rather easy to wear down and is offensively pretty weak without having any utility. Lures like Mega Latios or Spikes are really dangerous to pair with this thing. Overall - a huge threat that teams need to prepare for or the Pokemon will spiral out of control. Getting a Speed boost with Beast Boost makes it very difficult to revenge kill, while having fairly decent durability to survive a priority attack at full health. Specs and Scarf seem really mediocre, at least at this time.

Blacephelon - Scarf and Specs are really strong. Scarf is its best set so far, but Specs can be really deadly against bulky teams. Scarf is great because Beast Boost raises Special Attack while having a fairly decent Speed tier. It has crap bulk, but Ghost / Fire is a deadly offensive typing. All there is to save us is Tyranitar... and maybe bulky Waters, which hate Trick. Smack Down is kind of dumb but I guess if you're desperate for Volcarona check... it exists. I think a lot of people are sleeping on this Pokemon, but at the moment Naganadel is really nasty. I will say that Mind Blown should only be used as a one-time nuke or if there's no real better option - being only able to use it twice tops really blows overall. Also, definitely expecting Sub Calm Mind to catch some traction. Really cool things this Pokemon can do, but I feel that it's really unhealthy to face against constantly, which may happen in the future if Naganadel is absent.

Stakataka - No surprise, I kind of figured this Pokemon was not going to be bad at all. Being able to set up Trick Room by itself is really cool. A shame that Choice Band wasn't quite the popular set, but Trick Room with Continental Crush is the way to go. Definitely aim for Lonely with 15 Def IVs - this will raise Stakataka's Attack. Which, by the way, is only 3 base behind Tyranitar.

Other Pokemon

Tyranitar - Really damn solid right now. Not only is it being relied on for freezing Naganadel and Blacephelon, but it also keeps stuff like Latios from being really good. AV Tyranitar is an okay Volcarona check too. Overall, it's a great Pokemon that a lot of teams are using. No surprise on its rise.

Heatran - If your team doesn't have this Pokemon, I feel you need a really solid reason. The amount of compression this Pokemon offers while providing a lot of great utility in either laying Rocks, being bulky, or being offensively oppressive is great. I think a lot of teams benefit from using Heatran right now, and it's no surprise to see this Pokemon rising - especially with Naganadel in the tier.

Mega Latios - At first, I admit I thought it was kind of weird, but using and seeing it this Pokemon is really damn solid. I really love having the freedom to consider a Mega this generation without the huge opportunity cost, and Earthquake Mega Latios literally rocks through Heatran and Tyranitar. Again, powerful partners for Naganadel and Blacephelon.

Webs / Aurora Veil - Right now it's being carried pretty hard by Naganadel, but Webs does have a potential new partner in Araquanid thanks to access to Sticky Webs. STAB Liquidation still hits like a nuke and the ability making it immune to burns helps a lot to switch into Heatran.

Defog - The winner, IMO, is still Landorus-Therian. Landorus-T having access to Defog gives it another move to consider on Choice Scarf, which helps a ton with role compression. I haven't had a ton of experience with the other Pokemon as of yet, but I think after a while Rotom-Wash will be a cool addition with Gliscor being an option on balanced and bulky teams. Defog is like an okay filler move on Scarf Tapu Koko at least. Having a little more option for hazard removal is nice to have, and it does help benefit Bisharp ever so slightly in viability as well (though a lot of that is attested to Webs).

Just my small observations at this time.

 

[Marigold]

Hope I don't let you down, Gary. We love you for what you do <3

Been playing a lot of USUM OU ladder, I guess I'll just comment about a couple metagame trends and rising sets.

(spdef)

+ (AV)

or (spdef)

spdef heatran/ttar

This iconic duo, either together or alone, are finding themselves everywhere on teams now. Naganadel has near mandated at least one of these two defensive options to check it and prevent a speed boosting sweep. AV/spdef ttar sounds crazy, but can eat up +2 drake and retaliate with eq. Passing up the balance breaking ability of offensive ttar sucks though.

It would be wise to load up on lures for these spdef checks, like eq latios-m as Gary pointed out in the USUM cores thread.

(scarf)

scarf greninja

A premier revenge killer at the moment, scarf gren can reliably ohko naganadel with some spA investment and ice beam, or without investment after rocks. Also revenges volcarona well with rock slide, so gone are the days of guessing solely between "suicide lead or ash?"

volcarona is not op

I remember calls of "volcarona will be broken!" being made before USUM, but the rise of these spdef heavy sets and scarf gren mentioned above really make volcarona struggle to sweep consistently. Again, expect volcarona/naganadel + spdef lure to be the next wave.

Stakataka TR

Trick room rose in usage, notably stakataka TR. Not sure if this is just new toy syndrome or a legitimate threat, but that gyro ball and Z-stone edge damage makes for a work of art.

(substitute)

sub gyarados

The ability to set up on spdef heatran and scare out ttar, set up freely on uxie/cress, sas well as punish spdef toxapex by checkmating it 1v1, has really made this a rather anti-meta threat.

 

[LucarioMega]

Viability Rankings are up with Naganadel being S tier. Is the biggest offensive threat at the moment. Things like Heatran and Tyranitar, that looked like solid answers to it, are not that good. Tyranitar has to play some mind games with Pursuit, otherwise Naganadel can Nasty Plot (for the second time, maybe) and get the kill. Heatran is better at the job, but with some chip you can take it out. Both are weak to the most used mon in the tier, Lando, so you have to think twice before you go hard to them, cause a double to Lando is almost a no drawback play.

Banded Stakataka is a beast, 2HKO even resistance, but his blessing is his curse and with that low speed is not gonna stay alive for that long. Trick Room is getting a lot of usage on the Ladder and with the right support its a mon not to be taken lightly.

Finally, the Clown is a fun mon to use, but with Heatran and Av Tyranitar on every team cause of Naganadel, it can be useless for the entire match.

 

[Finchinator]

I think that the early stages of the metagame have been pretty telling and I am happy to see new Pokemon and moves in action. Obviously, Naganandel is at the forefront of any and all discussion generated about the tier as it is not only one of the most common and threatening Pokemon, but it is also downright broken no matter how you look at it, in my opinion. Just to elaborate a bit, I believe that there is not sufficient defensive counterplay as only things like SDef Heatran and AV Tyranitar can deal with it and there simply is no reliable offensive counterplay outside of Ice Shard users and the rare Ditto thanks to Beast Boost giving it +1 Speed when it gets a kill. Naganandel is simply-put ridiculous and too much for the tier, so hopefully it will go soon.

As for some other things, Blacephalon is a pretty interesting prospect. While the clown does not strike me as remotely top tier, I feel that Scarf and Z sets are very threatening -- it is basically what Chandelure wishes it was barring the fact that it is even worse against Tyranitar. It is super strong and even quite fast to the extnet that it is hard to counter without the aforementioned Tyranitar, but being frail and not as fast as the likes of Naganandel helps keep it manageable, ultimately. I want to see how common Blacephalon is in the near future to see where it will settle in the tier, but I am confident that it will be an interesting long-term addition to the metagame.

Stakataka is nothing spectacular, to be honest, but it probably will end up being at least fringe viable on archetypes like Trick Room, which has been seeing decent ladder usage throughout the generation and even has been incorporating Stakataka ever since the release of Ultra Sun and Moon. The two sets are Choice Banded and Z-Stone Edge with Trick Room and three attacks. It will not be as common or prevalent as Bronzong as a slap-on OTR win condition in DPP and, quite frankly, nothing will be in the current metagame. However, it is a nice addition to some teams and I feel like it will see ok usage as a pretty mediocre Pokemon that does have some place in the tier, even if it is far from the two aforementioned Pokemon, Naganandel and Blacephalon.

Some Pokemon that have seen improvement due to the new Pokemon are Heatran and Tyranitar, in my opinion. While neither gained anything themselves, their defensive presences are now called-upon on many more teams than beforehand. While Tyranitar's long-time niche of being a Choice Band user has taken a bit of a hit, it still fulfills a similar role as an Assault Vest user in the pursuit of defensively checking and trapping numerous top tier threats. In addition, it just has insanely high special bulk that cannot be paralleled by much of anything and Tyranitar still manages to have a strong offensive presence, making it able to fit on many teams. Heatran similarly is sought after more as a defensive Pokemon thanks to the ability to defeat non-HP Ground Naganandel and just be a generally great presence in the post-Dugtrio metagame -- it seems to be increasing in viability every day since that Arena Trap ban. This should really be no surprise, but I expect Heatran to remain in the top 5-7 of usage for many months to come.

As for Pokemon that benefited from new moves coming out, I think that the obvious suspects are Gliscor and Rotom-Wash due to Defog essentially giving people more of a reason to use them after both of these Pokemon spent all of SM approaching the realm of irrelevance and even dropping down to UU. Toxapex and Tapu Fini getting Knock Off is pretty neat, but Toxapex is still roughly the same, simply with another option as to how to cripple opposing Pokemon, and Tapu Fini is still blatantly underwhelming for something that saw a ton of usage early on. Some things that have been pretty nonexistent or simply bad have been Mimikyu with its new Z move, which should probably never be used in a serious setting, and Kommo-O, which got the new Z move and somehow received the hype nod from many posters in this forum, but never caught on and never will catch on because it is an inherently bad Pokemon that has a 4x weakness to one of the best types and lacks the speed or power to ever break through in the OU metagame -- do not use him!!!

When I get some more time, I kind of want to try to tinker with Knock Off Kartana, Volcarona in conjunction with the new slate of Defog users, and a couple different Mega Latios cores that I have seen used or mentioned in this subforum as that Pokemon seems to be trending since the later half of Snake, which is cool as it has not seen the light of day in OU at all before really. Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing the tier settle in and hopefully not develop into Toxapex win farming metagame 2.0, but rather a more fast paced metagame that is still open to various playstyles and lots of creativity!

bonus

 

[Scuba Diver]

I think the tier is actually fairly healthy and diverse at the moment besides the already discussed Naganandel which is just super hard to deal with (imagine if arena trap wasn't banned how much stronger it would be!). I think the rise of Tyranitar and Heatran to check the new threats will help fighting types broadly but specifically a rise in Keldeo useage, who threatens Blacephelon and Stakataka as well. I'd like to see if the meta can adapt to Naga but I'm doubtful, it just has so many things going for it (speed, power, type, ability, set up). You know what it's going to do and it sweeps you anyway.


I've been thinking about the two SUMO S ranks quite a bit since launch and Landorus got more versatile with Defog, but the main question I've been asking myself is how all these new pieces interact with Toxapex. Is it better (with knock off) or did it take a hit in viability from the new threats? Defog Landorus and Gliscor are obviously a huge roadblock to Pex keeping Tspikes up and the prevelance of Naganandel means you're unlikely to keep them up anyway (it also puts a huge amount of pressure on the pex user). Blacephelon and Naganandel can power through it and Magma Storm Heatran useage (which never really fell off) is necessiating Shed Shell on it again.

 

[FCKNfuego]

Probably gonna catch a bunch of flack for saying this but I think there is a little bit too much of a hype train surrounding Naga being immediately broken at this moment. No doubt, it's a strong mon; but outside of it's Nasty Plot set it's not really breaking the game any time soon. I've watched and played a number of games with this mon and seen it pick up some decisive wins but i've also seen it struggle hard with all of the preparation people are taking. With the influx of Heatran and Tar being used to counter it, abundance of priority in the meta and few mons it can safely setup on in OU I think it's simply too soon to outright call it broken. It would be nice to see what counterplay develops over a bit of time rather than simply giving it a week or two in an unsettled meta.

 

[Selihido]

I’m probably really biased because of my love of its typing, but I’m liking blace so far. It IS pretty matchup reliant atm with the prevalence of AV ttar to check naga, but nonetheless it puts in some serious work in the right matchups. I don’t particularly like mind blow sets due to the recoil, but I see their perks. Scarf is nice as a potential sweeper and it’s nice that it can help check naga in conjunction with priority (though let’s be real if you don’t have tran or ttar on your team for that youre doing something wrong).

My prediction is that blace gets a lot better in the coming months (not worse as some people expect), mostly because I don’t think naga lasts for very long in OU. With no naga comes less rampant ttar use and while usage will no doubt still be high it will certainly drop and probably won’t run AV anymore, which is a huge perk for my friend the clown. No naga ban though and blace will stay mediocre.

If naga doesn’t get banned though I think tran might be S worthy. It already checks a huge amount of the tier and if naga stays it becomes near-mandatory on teams. That said, it’s probably a little bold for me to make such a conjecture so early in the meta.

 

[Divine Retribution]

With the influx of Heatran and Tar being used to counter it, abundance of priority in the meta and few mons it can safely setup on in OU I think it's simply too soon to outright call it broken.

This forced over-preparation is a huge part of the reason why Naganadel is indeed unhealthy for the metagame. Teams are forced to run AV Tar or SpDef Tran (or even both, as either one on their own is vulnerable to being chipped or lured by the likes of Mega Latios) or very specific revengekillers (Weavile and Scarf Greninja) in order to not simply auto lose to Naganadel. It's somewhat comparable (albeit not as bad) to when XY had first been released and people were essentially forced to run certain Pokemon to not auto lose to the likes of Mega Kanga.

Naganadel is a huge restriction on teambuilding and its counterplay is shaky at best. It absolutely needs to go in my opinion, there's just no other way I can see it. I think it's unlikely sufficient counterplay is going to crawl out of the woodworks in the coming weeks and months, and I see no reason to let an obviously busted threat rule the tier while we wait for people to try and come up with checks and counters that may or may not even exist.

 

[1234hjkl]

Probably gonna catch a bunch of flack for saying this but I think there is a little bit too much of a hype train surrounding Naga being immediately broken at this moment. No doubt, it's a strong mon; but outside of it's Nasty Plot set it's not really breaking the game any time soon. I've watched and played a number of games with this mon and seen it pick up some decisive wins but i've also seen it struggle hard with all of the preparation people are taking. With the influx of Heatran and Tar being used to counter it, abundance of priority in the meta and few mons it can safely setup on in OU I think it's simply too soon to outright call it broken. It would be nice to see what counterplay develops over a bit of time rather than simply giving it a week or two in an unsettled meta.

And its exactly for that reason people are claiming its broken. Look at a the other mons at S-Rank all of them influential but any good team gonna have a counter or a check not because they cover they only but because they are good mons who cover lots of other threats as well, now look at Naga there people using these mons especifically to not die to it after a set up. With one set alone it can breakthrough almost everything bar some of the bulkiest things in the meta, thats why TW Chansey, Av-Ttar and Sp.Def tran are everywhere and even so two of then Naga can bruteforce his way and the other is gimping a good mon to have a decent anwser to it. That's also why a lot of people are using more Scarf-Ninja to outspeed it and Band Vile is getting a surge outside stall since with very little prior damage its able to kill it with Ice shard. I really like Naga and I am enjoying using it while it lasts but its too much for the tier.

Anyway about the other UB's. Blacephalon is amazing....were not for TTar, I been using a Specs set and it hits very hard also chanseys and Heatran and even some Ttar can't swicth freely else they get hit by trick and are stuck with one move only. Still that speed tier of its not doing any favors, yeah its not bad but thanks to Naga the meta is both faster and bulky so resists or things which outspeed it aren't hard to come and unless you're playing against stall the team are packing at least 2 mon who outspeed you or can eat your hits. Maybe when the influx of TTar drops or the meta slow down a little it gets a better.

Stakataka gave TR another solid choice. In my opinion its a Physical magearna with a Nuke which don't drops your offensive stat, while its good on tr its meh out of it, I guess it can work as a standalone OFT with bulu support but I don't know. Well at least it got a solid niche.

 

[DragonAscent]

I know it's not ranked, but I've been having a lot of fun with DD kommo-o + naganadel. Kommo-o is the biggest fairy bait in the known universe, and naganadel sets up all over fairies not named lele, who isn't loving all the heatrans running around. Coincidentally, naganadel is one of the best heatran and ttar baits, and kommo-o sets up all over those two jabronis. Don't run anything but adamant LO for kommo-o, it needs the power. Dragon stab is also unnecessary. Give it a shot.

Webs ribombee is not good, webs araquanid is decent, but this thread covered that.

Despite what I said about ribombee, suicide leads feel solid right now. Even tried out ol' smeargle again, and it did pretty well. Really enjoys mega sab and to a lesser extent diancie being so rare.

Tried a roost + defog hawlucha set for memes. It was real bad. Actually did have plenty of success with defog klefki (prankster t wave is a godsend for everyone's favorite/least favorite dragon wasp)

Naganadel is super easy to use, which, if I can get wins with it, probably means it's too good. Specs is also really cool, especially with u-turn and the aforementioned kommo-o, but thunderbolt is also obv super nice for those fat waters like pex and mantine that seem to try to switch in even though all they can do normally is haze. I also encountered two empoleons on the ladder, which I guess is an ok check to naga like once? Haven't tested it.

Blacephalon is fun. Doesn't feel broken to me, doesn't feel like dogshit, just fun to use.

Specs fini is also cool with trick now. The misty terrain's side effect helps other things eat the z dracos from beezma.

Don't use dusk dog, I speak from experience.

Tried dhelmise because it got synthesis and I love the design, but it just isn't good. Maybe if it existed a gen earlier.

That's about everything.

 

[Fila]

Naganadel - Okay I will get this one out of the way first since basically everything else that is going to be talked about is in one way or another is heavily influenced by the introduction of Naganadel. To quickly put it, I really do believe Naganadel is not healthy for tier in many different ways. The things it is able to pull off are actually out of this world and the argument that since the mon is new people just do not know how to play around it yet can easily been spun on its head since with the lack of experience users have with the mon. The lack of the hit and run tactic from nag (vs tran since pursuit from tar is never appreciated) is actually shocking to me since the opponent is forced to bring the tran in the moment nag shows up. And boom there is some chip damage that helps increase the chances of a sweep later. The worse case scenario is what you KO something if tran doesn't come? It is really near impossible to play against it and keep tempo since the moment it comes in there is a legitimate forced play; either you bring in your spd tran/av tar, sac a mon and bring in your revenge killer, or lose the game. Entering the field gives an immediate reaction and it isn't just that your opponent gained tempo and threatened to KO something with their lati resulting in your switch in to mag and wall it. The situation is you react now or you lose on the spot. Not to mention the struggle to team build since 1 or 2 spot are easily taken up just trying not to lose. And with the likes of tran and tar it is like playing without them on your team for a good portion of the match just being afraid of them falling into range of getting KOd by nag and losing anyways. I do not support a quick ban mainly to avoid controversy; have a suspect test and everyone will see for themselves after it is removed from the tier.

--oh quick note there have been arguments about how it needs to get up to win; remember pheromosa? Yeah that had the same topic of "oh it needs to set up its quiver dance, but the thing is it was able to reliably set it up just like Naganadel can.

Blacephalon - I cannot wait to see what this mon can bring to the tier in a few month or even longer since currently it is unable to highly preform almost entirely because of what Naganadel has done to the tier. The fact that blace is walled and revenge killed by the same exact things that are used to beat nag is just unlucky for this mon currently. Once nag is suspected and removed from the tier there should most likely be a decrease of all the nag checks which will result in a meta shift even if it is slight. A meta game with av tar just comes in eating hits and trapping it there is not too much room for blace to thrive at the moment. There will definitely be a solid place for blace in future since it has already been shown to shred through bulky teams with that amazing 151 spa stat and quality stab moves. I really would like to see how much of an impact will be made in by this mon later on, definitely watch for it to rise in usage in mid usm.

Stakataka - I understand why people like it and what it does, but nothing will ever be considered a top tier mon if it can only be used on tr. To be quite honest I think the addition of Stakataka won't actually do that much even with tr since it isn't like it was missing that final piece to be viable. At best it replaces one of the staple mons (doubtful) and then you see the exact same teams, but this time with Stakataka. If you like the mon I respect that, but there will not be a big splash from it's introduction.

Tran/Tar - Spd tran was very good in oras and here we have its rebirth after being outclassed by the trapping and utility sets during sm and personally I am happy with this rise since I honestly like the mon. The World Cup super star av tar is actually being ran on the ladder and good for it. Honestly talking about these two is like beating a dead horse; they are great in the current meta game and learn to like them because until nag leaves that is what we are stuck with.

Rotom-W - Smogon Wash is back baby! There are not too many things in existence that threaten out lando, willo spam, volt for momentum, and defog in its face. For me that says enough on its own, but I will still talk about it more. Honestly just a well played rotom gives a team so much utility and can generally be a headache with which move will be selected each time it comes in. Speed creeping allows burns on very important things if necesarry as well as opting for either faster or slower uturns against the likes of other rotoms and lando. Overall loving what I have seen from this thing already and looks like its back in its glory days.

Ground Types - Who walls nag? Tran, tar, av mag (ish). And what are they all weak too? Yeah that is a really unfortunate situation and another reason why nag is so good. But yeah because nag is weak to ground and the counters to it are weak to ground the door is opened up for earthquakes left and right. This isn't necessarily bad it just means building a team now not only needs the 1-2 nag counters but also 1-2 reliable ground resists/immunities to keep the nag counters from going down. With the advantage added to using ground types that means once a team places it tran, tar, or both on the team there isn't much room for anything else ground weak.

Mega Pinsir - Special shout out to pinsir just due to the success I have found with it very early on; as I talked about above with the ground weak nag counters running around pinsir is able to easily have decently strong matchups given at least one of them is on nearly every team. To top that off the multitude of volt turners being use like lando, rotom, av mag, etc really give multiple opportunities to bring this thing in and just blow holes into teams. Has the ability to revenge nag if it happens to drop or the chance to straight up kill it with a +2 quick attack given it took rocks once or twice. Where the current meta seems to be it pinsir isn't forced into needing to set up like it has been at times in the past, yet instead when it comes in it can basically fire of a frustration and net a kill or get very valuable chip onto something else. This is actually the same a few of the megas at this point in time like cham, lop, etc. But I just wanted to highlight the one I have used the most so far.

 

[verbatim]

Some things I've been playing around with that do decent against Naga and haven't been brought up much in this thread. Most of them need rocks or prior chip damage.


AV Mage:

+2 252 SpA Naganadel Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 206-244 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Naganadel: 238-282 (82.3 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Various Mamoswine:

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 221-265 (76.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 254-302 (88.1 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

[Guy147]

I'm not a big fan of this meta but there are some mons that are better that people haven't really talked about
Pyukumuku: don't hurt me but this thing actually got the perfect move for its moveset which is block so the set is to block toxic soak and rest (toxic. Chansey and pex) it beats walls and is a check vs naga and blace/gren before battle bond if you run max special defense (which I would to pair up with battle bond gren as that set beats all its counters except ferro and bulu) It's not all that good but I think it has a small niche it can successfully use in ou
Ribombee: basically a web setter that beats the most common magic bounce users has hp steel and moon blast (if someone runs Xatu I'll die) it is fast as hell and has access to u turn for momentum and stun spore to stop dragon dancers and naga(if their dumb enough to set up on a fairy).

 

[Zukrad]

Is always hype to see new mons in the meta, specially if they are really broken, and Naganadel delivered
NP+ 3 attacks Naganadel is so good that is almost not worth considering the Scarf or Specs set at all, just because you can't run both at the same time. Still debating if Flamethrower is more worth than Fire Blast, I haven't seen a calc that makes me preffer one over the other, so I'm running both at different times to test it out. Definitely a top tier threat rn. Maybe it ends up like Mega Altaria where is just that the Meta wasn't quite prepared and ends up being garbage, but I'm confident this won't be the case

Stakataka is much better than I expected, but I had no expectations for this thing to begin with, so it wasn't too hard. Probably won't be good enough to stay in OU for long, but it will be probably fun to use in UU. I wish it had better typing to at least tank a Defensive Lando EQ without having to run max max defense or a Shucca Berry

Blacephalon is good. And is going to get better once Naganadel gets banned and Ttar drops in usage a bit. My favorite set (yet not the best) is Mind Blown + Salac Berry. After Ttar/Heatran is gone, it just sweeps the lategame. With 4 HP, Blacephalon gets in Salac range after SR damage and Mind Blown recoil. The other moves I use are FBlast and Shadow Ball, the fourth move is usually WoW or HP Ground, but I almost never click it.

I would say Bisharp got pretty decent with the amount of new deffogers and being able to be a threat to Naganadel and Blace with Sucker Punch or Pursuit. Surprised it didn't get raised to B in the VR really.

Any thoughts on this guy? Being able to check Naganadel and Ash Gren, soft check Blacephalon, being able to Defog, set up SR seems like a good role compression for teams that can't afford running Ttar or Heatran (Obviously very niche, but decent niche nonetheless). I haven't recorded any battles with it, since I haven't been able to use it that much, so I would be interested to see the opinions of others on it. The lack of recovery hurts tho

 

[Dakress]

Naganadel is completly bonkers, and while it isn't without flaws, the sheer easiness it claims kills plus the fact its forcing everyone to run special walls just to tank its hits makes me fear it's future in OU. Then again, the Greninja Bros. & Magearna never left despite being sorta centralizing, so...

Blacephalon is super good as long as you've gotten rid of any special walls the oponent have, otherwise it's borderline useless. Not having HP Fighting or Energy Ball like a certain haunted chandelier hurts a lot, sadly.

Stakataka is definitively not gonna be Guzzlord's buddy anytime soon like everyone (+ me) thought. The fact that Choice Boosted Gyro Ball 3KOs Defensive Landorus-T just screams how hard this stonewall hits, and being able to activate Trick Room on makes it even better (and that's with 31 speed IVs + negative nature, mind you). If its defensive typing wasn't trash it would be solid OU usage wise.

Kommo-o's...good I think?

Other things I've noticed's that Hyper Offense is everywhere, there's ton of priority users running around just to revenge kill Naganadel, Defog Lando-T is (for better or for worse) super viable, Araquanid as a Sticky Webs lead is far better than Ribombee imo, and the abundance of Defog helps Bisharp a lot.

 

[GnralLao]

Naganadel is completly bonkers, and while it isn't without flaws, the sheer easiness it claims kills plus the fact its forcing everyone to run special walls just to tank its hits makes me fear it's future in OU. Then again, the Greninja Bros. & Magearna never left despite being sorta centralizing, so...

Blacephalon is super good as long as you've gotten rid of any special walls the oponent have, otherwise it's borderline useless. Not having HP Fighting or Energy Ball like a certain haunted chandelier hurts a lot, sadly.

Stakataka is definitively not gonna be Guzzlord's buddy anytime soon like everyone (+ me) thought. The fact that Choice Boosted Gyro Ball 3KOs Defensive Landorus-T just screams how hard this stonewall hits, and being able to activate Trick Room on makes it even better. If its defensive typing wasn't trash it would be solid OU usage wise.

Kommo-o's...good I think? (In all seriousness I'm happy I was right with my prediction about the Z-Set being super akward to pull and the Belly Drum+Salac Berry set being legit good)

About metagame trends, HO is everywhere, there's ton of priority users running around just to claim Poison Dragonbee's life, Defog Lando-T is (for better or for worse) super viable, and Bisharp's back in the game.

Just wanted to say that CB Stakatagod actually 2HKOes Def Lando-T (you probably forgot to put 0 IVs in Speed):

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 216-255 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sooooo yeah... amazing feat indeed!

 

[verbatim]

Any thoughts on this guy? Being able to check Naganadel and Ash Gren, soft check Blacephalon, being able to Defog, set up SR seems like a good role compression for teams that can't afford running Ttar or Heatran (Obviously very niche, but decent niche nonetheless). I haven't recorded any battles with it, since I haven't been able to use it that much, so I would be interested to see the opinions of others on it. The lack of recovery hurts tho

I've seen a lot of random bulky waters (usually with AV) suggested as a naga check, but I feel like they're very gimmicky. Empoleon can theoretically switch in on a NP and "win" the fight, but it seems like it doesn't have a lot of utilty after that, especially considering AV Tar/Tran/Mage and scarf greninja can do the same thing and contribute in other, less telegraphed ways.

 

[SiTuM]

On a more serious note, I found that stakataka is not that bad in TR and can surprisingly check Brokenadel™. Then I found that the amount of Ttar is making Blacephalon a really hard life, and it can't really shine while it could be a great specs user in the meta. Not much to say about defog users, i found rotom really hard to use because it must either give up hpump or pain split to use defog and i found this really sad. Lando can be fun but sr is still a wayyy better set. Anyway, I hope i'll have more fun playing this tier when Brokenadel™ will be banned !

 

[Albacore]

I've been using Blacephalon a bunch, both Scarf and Specs, and I definitely think Specs is the better set of the two.

I just don't see much of a reason to run Blacephalon as a Scarfer over stuff like Kartana or Greninja, besides being able to revenge kill Shift Gear Mage which has severely dropped in usage anyway. Although its cleaning abilities seem pretty appealing (especially with Shadow Ball hitting almost all of the tier at least neutrally), in practice it's pretty hard to actually fit on a team. Given that its defenses are made of paper and it doesn't really revenge kill anything important (unless you're running Smack Down I guess?), it doesn't provide anything defensively. Which means you're going to be using it on offense, right? The problem is that since it's weak to SR. So you need a hazard remover. And if you're running offense, you hazard remover will probably be... a scarfer. So if you're running Scarf Blacephalon, you'll probably end up having to run 2 scarfers on one team, unless you're using Excadrill HO which is a really specific build. So while in theory it may seem great, in practice it seems difficult to justify using.

Specs, though, is pretty neat. There are a lot of times where I just looked at team preview and thought "oh, I can just Fire Blast and something dies". It's really good at punching holes in TTar-less teams, and even if you do face TTar, you can easily take advantage of it with something like MLop and MMedi, which are both really good now btw. Incidentally, Mind Blown is actually not bad? It's pretty good if you really need that extra damage, and there are situations where I clicked Fire Blast and really wished i had clicked Mind Blown, since the opposing Lando-T or Zapdos or whatever lived with like 5%. There are also times where I've missed Fire Blast, and Mind Blown's perfect accuracy is a great asset. I really don't think there's much of a reason not to run it, in practice you're rarely going to use Psyshock or Knock Off (and Trick on something that relies so heavily on its item to wallbreak just seems bad) so sacrificing only one of these doesn't seem like the end of the world. It's also pretty good for momentum, sometimes you just want to deal a ton of damage and send something in for free. Speaking of momentum, VoltTurn users pair up great with this thing since they bait in things that get wrecked by it, particularly Ferrothorn. More than anything, I'm glad that we have one more thing that completely trashes Ferrothorn because that mon sure is annoying.

Z Move CM or Taunt could be okay, but you're probably just better off nuking stuff with Fire Blast. We may get to a point where Z-moves are an effective way of tripping up people who are used to Choiced Blacephalon and know how to deal with it, but for now, Specs is the way to go imo.

Naganadel is blatantly broken, even if you think it's somewhat manageable, wait until you face the horror that is Naganadel Under Veil or even Naganadel With Webs. The fact that people are even considering running Empoleon speaks for itself honestly. Don't have much to add, it's just busted, I've regularly gone from almost getting 6-0ed to winning thanks to this thing, it's just absurdly good.

Stakataka is actually pretty good? I think some people are assuming its only use is on TR teams which kinda misses the point. I'm sure it can be used on TR, but I've just used at an an OTR mon on some bulky offense team. It can actually sweep decently well and doesn't have a lot of difficulties finding setup opportunities thanks to its natural bulk. It's also got some very nice defensive properties like checking Tapu Lele and Nagadanel. It's got some major issues though, it wants both EQ for Toxapex and Superpower for Kartana+Ferrothorn, and it needs to really predict well around stuff if it doesn't want TR to run out before it gets a kill (though Rockium Z helps, hence why it's probably the best set). Generally speaking, it has a lot of trouble vs bulkier teams, but it can really put in work vs offense and it's surprisingly decent overall.

As for the new defoggers... Eh? Lando-T with Defog is pretty good, I have to admit, but it's not gamebreaking or anything.
As for Rotom-W and Gliscor, I've found both of them underwhelming despite, in theory, having really good matchups vs common OU hazard setters. Rotom-W gets both worn down and overwhelmed pretty easily, offensive teams would rather have a scarfer like Latios or Lando-T and bulky teams would rather have something with actual recovery like Mew or Zapdos, so it's kinda awkward despite being very splashable in theory.
Gliscor, on the other hand, really suffers from how over-prepared everyone is for Lando-T and has some real issues with its 4MSS. I would strongly advise against running U-Turn on it, it just doesn't work very well and you'd rather have Toxic or Taunt (I prefer the latter since it puts Lando-T on a timer). In any case, they may rise back to OU because of hype at first, but I'm pretty sure they'll drop back down once people realise they're not really that good.

Overall I think Defog's new accessibility won't have that much impact on the metagame in the long run, and stuff like TSpikes Toxapex and Spikes Ash-Greninja are still going to rule the tier

On a related note, I've used Knock Off Toxapex, and while it is very good and I like it a lot, I did underestimate how good Scald is for its chance to cripple Steels and non-grounded Pokemon, particularly Landorus-T, and combined with Knock Off it's excellent for stuff like Celesteela and Ferrothorn. So right now, Toxapex is in a tricky spot where it wants to run 5 moves. Due to the Defog influx I've opted to drop TSpikes for now, but as the metagame develops and the Defog hype drops, I wonder what it'll end up settling on.