Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

[Deleted User [433215]]

I've been enjoying specs Magearna as of late. I find it a good lure that can wallbreak really hard while having volt switch to maintain momentum really well while being a good way to cause a lot of damage to things like Celesteela and Heatran. It's best partner I've found is protean Greninja, who can use z Dig with spikes to lure and smash Toxapex and other Magearnas.

 

[Guwahavel]

I took a fairly long hiatus so missed this great post. However, I'd like to argue that I found that M-Steelix eclipses M-Aggron in terms of utility.

While both these Megas possess a similar level of defense (albeit with M-Aggron possessing filter), Mega-Steelix provides an excellent switch-in to Tapu Koko, which can threaten and pressure stall. Furthermore, Mega-Steelix also provides an answer for Pain-Split Magearna running T-Bolt + Fleur Cannon.

On a Sand-Stall, Mega-Steelix also becomes quite threatening offensively, with Sand-Force, Respectable Attack and Strong STABs. So unless you're running Avalanche M-Aggron for some niche Landorus/Zygarde/Gliscor/Mence Lures, I'd recommend M-Steelix instead.

Filter is a much better ability than Sand Force, and I don't think Sand Stall is a viable strategy with limited weather turns.

 

[robofiend]

Regarding M-Steelix: Mage might just run Focus Blast for Heatran and decimate Steelix anyway, Koko doesn't really threaten much these days, much less stall (Chansey blocks SpA variants, Quags checks pretty much everything but Specs DG, Z-Wild Charge Koko a one-time attack that might work for clearing Chansey but doesn't do much else). Sand Force M-Steelix is as or more useless against Lando-T as Aggron is, not to mention that Sand Stall just ineffective because of the number of Steel types floating around and you could just run M-Garchomp if you wanted a (bad) Sand Force user to waste your mega slot on. Unlike Steelix, Aggron can eat a Heatran Magma Storm and KO it with EQ, not to mention it can eat (Z or not) Focus Blast from Magearna or Lele from full.

TL:DR; Aggron is better than Steelix, I'd go as far to say that M-Steelix just isn't viable at in the current meta because its slow, predictable, and has typing/ability disadvantages to pretty much every other steel type in the tier.

 

[Dreadfury]

Probably a pretty shitty question, but I feel like it must be asked nevertheless:

Why is Double Dance (CM+Acid Armor) Reuniclus so criminally underrated? It's arguably one of the most oppressive sweepers/win conditions in the entire meta currently once Dark-types are removed and it's one of the few things that can potentially use Zygarde as setup fodder, which is an incredibly impressive feat on its own. There are tons of teams that lose to it at team preview and there are tons of others that have to play incredibly carefully to prevent their Dark type from getting statused or chipped away at because they're the only things stopping this thing from running over a team at a glacial speed.

What's deterring lower ladder players from using it more than they currently do? Because it feels like it has an issue like this every single generation where it goes unnoticed except by a few high-end players that demonstrate just how incredible it is.

 

[JTD783]

Probably a pretty shitty question, but I feel like it must be asked nevertheless:

Why is Double Dance (CM+Acid Armor) Reuniclus so criminally underrated? It's arguably one of the most oppressive sweepers/win conditions in the entire meta currently once Dark-types are removed and it's one of the few things that can potentially use Zygarde as setup fodder, which is an incredibly impressive feat on its own. There are tons of teams that lose to it at team preview and there are tons of others that have to play incredibly carefully to prevent their Dark type from getting statused or chipped away at because they're the only things stopping this thing from running over a team at a glacial speed.

What's deterring lower ladder players from using it more than they currently do? Because it feels like it has an issue like this every single generation where it goes unnoticed except by a few high-end players that demonstrate just how incredible it is.

Reuni is definitely underrated. The only things that really go against it in my experience are:

1. Reliance on Toxic Spikes
It basically needs pex in order to work so this restricts teambuilding somewhat. More importantly, there are many viable defog users to keep Toxic spikes off the field which means Reuniclus can't do much until the Dark-types are poisoned or the defoggers are gone.

2. Common Threats
Some breakers, such as Mega Mawile and Mega Heracross, still pressure the hell out of yung hard body. Kartana and Mega Scizor can boost alongside it and go for crits or whatever. Hydreigon can spam Dark Pulse looking for crits and flinches and can't be hit by Toxic Spike. Ash Greninja's Dark Pulse still hits like a truck even when Reuniclus has a few CM boosts so it's risky to take it on. Other threats include Volcarona, Mega Sableye, and Hoopa-Unbound.

3. 1-Dimensional
Obviously running CM/AA/Recover/Psyshock leaves Reuniclus helpless against Dark-types. This is what produces all of the checks listed above. In addition, every opponent knows this. They know what Reuniclus does and how to fight it, if they have the tools to do so. The Reuniclus user can't really make reads when it always has to be used the same way: switch in, boost defensive stat, heal when necessary, go for game once counters are dealt with. Very predictable.

Still a great mon and I strongly recommend people try it if they haven't done so already.


**Edit**

It's not easy to build around Reuniclus, which means low ladder will have trouble using it. The harder to use, the less low ladder usage. It do be like that sometimes.

 

[Adapt or Die]

Probably a pretty shitty question, but I feel like it must be asked nevertheless:

Why is Double Dance (CM+Acid Armor) Reuniclus so criminally underrated? It's arguably one of the most oppressive sweepers/win conditions in the entire meta currently once Dark-types are removed and it's one of the few things that can potentially use Zygarde as setup fodder, which is an incredibly impressive feat on its own. There are tons of teams that lose to it at team preview and there are tons of others that have to play incredibly carefully to prevent their Dark type from getting statused or chipped away at because they're the only things stopping this thing from running over a team at a glacial speed.

What's deterring lower ladder players from using it more than they currently do? Because it feels like it has an issue like this every single generation where it goes unnoticed except by a few high-end players that demonstrate just how incredible it is.

I think new players are reluctant to have a mon that is hard blocked by an entire type. I've used Reuniclus extensively and the double dance is straight up a god not just as a win con that beats almost every non-dark type in the game (and several dark types with t spikes), but as just a defensive mon that checks dangerous attackers.

Speaking of Reuni, what are people's thoughts on what its attacking move should be. I use psychic to Ohko lucha and also to win against zy/scizor but can see psyshock's value in taking on opposing CMers and not having to pp stall Chansey. Anyone had success with a non-mono psychic attacking move? Playing around Ash-Gren, and the rarer Muk and Hydreigons is a bit of a headache.

 

[Clemenprez]

I think new players are reluctant to have a mon that is hard blocked by an entire type. I've used Reuniclus extensively and the double dance is straight up a god not just as a win con that beats almost every non-dark type in the game (and several dark types with t spikes), but as just a defensive mon that checks dangerous attackers.

Speaking of Reuni, what are people's thoughts on what its attacking move should be. I use psychic to Ohko lucha and also to win against zy/scizor but can see psyshock's value in taking on opposing CMers and not having to pp stall Chansey. Anyone had success with a non-mono psychic attacking move? Playing around Ash-Gren, and the rarer Muk and Hydreigons is a bit of a headache.

focus blast over acid armor is usable, but in general I feel acid armor is still superior. Losing the ability to setup on darks as well as being a much worse check to things like zygarde really sucks. Focus blast is also only really useful catching something switching in (assuming it hits in the first place) because reuni is so slow and doesn't want to take any strong dark hit.

 

[Adapt or Die]

focus blast over acid armor is usable, but in general I feel acid armor is still superior. Losing the ability to setup on darks as well as being a much worse check to things like zygarde really sucks. Focus blast is also only really useful catching something switching in (assuming it hits in the first place) because reuni is so slow and doesn't want to take any strong dark hit.

Yeah I was wondering if anyone had success using a non psychic move over psychic, or if people strongly recommended psyshock instead. Something like flash cannon or hidden power fairy to not be hard walled by anything or hit dark switches. My hunch is it is just too weak before getting to +6, which is fine in wincon mode but a problem in midgame where reuni is checking a setup sweeper. I'm not giving up acid armor, it's what makes Reuniclus so good.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

It gets signal beam but hidden power fairy isn't a move sadly

 

[Finchinator]

Hidden Power Fairy is not a move, yea.

Anyway, Acid Armor Reuniclus teams are meant to have a means of crippling Tyranitar and Greninja through status (Toxic Spikes being far-and-away the most common method of doing so, being essentially a staple on builds with Acid Armor Reuniclus). Because of this, Toxapex is seen on a vast majority of Acid Armor Reuniclus teams; the fact that Reuniclus + Toxapex is used makes the team a bit inherently passive or at least easy to take advantage of for specific offensive threats such as Z Heatran, Mega Mawile, SD Kartana, and even Tapu Lele. This makes builds around Acid Armor Reuniclus quite limited as you are forced to run specific things (you find a lot of utility Mega Latias for covering Heatran, Kartana, and potentially Defogging, you find a lot of Magnezone to eliminate Mega Mawile, you find a lot of AV Tyranitar for making Tapu Lele's existence harder, etc.). Acid Armor Reuniclus has a lot of viability, but structures with it are limited, thus making it challenging for less experienced builders or those looking to explore the intricacies of the metagame. There are only a limited number of balance builds that you will see with Acid Armor Reuniclus and most of them have already been built and used in tournaments, so perhaps look for those games if you want examples.

As for other Reuniclus (2A + CM + Recover, usually with a Z move), however, the boundaries expand quite a bit. This does not come without specific choices and inconveniences though. You want to run Focus Blast to hit Tyranitar, but then you are walled by Mega Sableye. Oftentimes, this leads to midground coverage moves such as Signal Beam, Flash Cannon, or even Energy Ball being ran. On top of that, moves such as Shadow Ball and Thunder have been seen in the fourth slot. The Z move can be slapped on as the type of any of the secondary coverage moves or Psychic; Z Psychic does a ton to just about anything at +1 and it poses the largest threat to Unaware Quagsire and Clefable on Stall aside from the moves that hit them super effectively (Energy Ball and Flash Cannon respectively). It is still most common on balance and you will oftentimes see similar partners -- Thunder Wave Mega Latias to cripple Tyranitar, Magnezone to remove Mega Mawile, who can otherwise take advantage of more passive Reuniclus cores, and even Toxapex will get the nod on plenty of Reuniclus balances regardless of AA or 2a. This is far from fully explored territory at this point and I feel like the options are limitless, so perhaps there will be more of this in the future, but as of late it feels like Reuniclus usage and exploration has plateaued after starting to trend with the AA set during late WCOP and into OLT, which made sense seeing as AA's best characteristic is sweeping the physical set-up heavy HO teams that everyone spammed on the ladder. Anyway, Reuniclus is hard to build with, but it is very possible to do, so don't give up!

 

[Adapt or Die]

It gets signal beam but hidden power fairy isn't a move sadly

Hidden Power Fairy is not a move, yea.

I would just like to say I've been playing pokemon for 20 years (on showdown like 6) and this is the first time I've learned hidden power fairy isn't a move. That's kinda incredible although not terribly relevant to the thread.

And yeah the Reuni team I built for myself has pex on it. Sounds like there aren't really any non mono-psychic non t spikes partner builds with the acid armor set. Which is fine, Reuni is already enough of a beast with just that build. But it seems like I'm preaching to the choir here on that note, and don't need to belabor it anymore.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

One thing I've noticed in OU is that Sticky Web is surprisingly good. With so many fast mons like Kartana, Greninja(Ash) and Tapu Koko, it can really mess up hyper offensive teams. So I decided to build a team with Sticky Web and Mega Pinsir, and it's doing surprisingly well. I've had about 30 battles and I'm about to break 1500 on the ladder. Here's the team:

Importable

Hide

Shuckle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Knock Off
- Encore

Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
- Rock Slide

Pinsir-Mega @ Pinsirite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Frustration
- Quick Attack
- Earthquake

Tapu Lele @ Psychium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Water Shuriken
- Dark Pulse
- Spikes

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 236 HP / 160 Atk / 112 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Coil
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance

 

[Adapt or Die]

One thing I've noticed in OU is that Sticky Web is surprisingly good. With so many fast mons like Kartana, Greninja(Ash) and Tapu Koko, it can really mess up hyper offensive teams. So I decided to build a team with Sticky Web and Mega Pinsir, and it's doing surprisingly well. I've had about 30 battles and I'm about to break 1500 on the ladder. Here's the team:

Importable

Hide

Shuckle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Knock Off
- Encore

Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
- Rock Slide

Pinsir-Mega @ Pinsirite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Frustration
- Quick Attack
- Earthquake

Tapu Lele @ Psychium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Water Shuriken
- Dark Pulse
- Spikes

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 236 HP / 160 Atk / 112 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Coil
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance

Most sticky web teams I've seen have ribombee or araquanid as a webs setter instead of shuckle. Both have a lot more offensive presence than shuckle and ribombee at least is about as reliable in getting webs up with its speed and sash. Araquanid trades that reliability for being able to check greninja and just generally smack things with its powerful stabs. Also magic coat plays some great mind games with opposing leads. Now encore on shuckle is pretty great but any skilled player who sees shuckle at preview is just going to send out a heavy hitter and get as much damage on it as they can so that it only sets up webs once which can be defogged later, and can't really check anything later in the game. So while shuckle is pretty decent at setting webs I do like the other two mons better in general.

ChrystalFalchion, if I may make some specific suggestions for your team. Your team is ridiculously weak to Ash-Gren with literally every mon being 2hkoed by hydro pump and your only counter play being to outspeed and ko it with only drill actually outspeeding it pre webs. If I faced you with any of my common teams I'd just lead Ash-gren against presumably shuckle and click hydro pump until I transformed. Your best counter play in that scenario is to knock off my specs, but that cost you webs for the game. For this reason I would recommend araquanid as your webs setter.

Second, I'd change double dance zygarde to glare zygarde. Glare may seem redundant with webs, but it actually synergizes really well. All your webs abusers are also glare abusers so if you lose webs you're not sunk. Sub-coil zygarde as you probably already know loves setting up on slower mons, but it loves setting up on paralyzed mons even more as with hax it can usually get to the point where even its counters can't beat it (looking at you bulu and sciz). It torments every common defogger in the game not named fini while double dance can still have problems with lando-t, tornadus, and kartana. Both zygarde sets are fantastic, but in my opinion glare zygarde fits a webs build better.

 

[MikeDawg]

so that it only sets up webs once which can be defogged later

That's why it's important to maintain offensive pressure and build such that you can take heavy advantage of common defoggers. Suicide leads very rarely stick around anyway bar certain circumstances (like if you need lead lando to apply intimidate later and they have something to tank explosion anyway). Plus, final gambit gives shuckle a self-sack, which is often vital to grabbing early momentum for HO teams.

 

[Adapt or Die]

That's why it's important to maintain offensive pressure and build such that you can take heavy advantage of common defoggers. Suicide leads very rarely stick around anyway bar certain circumstances (like if you need lead lando to apply intimidate later and they have something to tank explosion anyway). Plus, final gambit gives shuckle a self-sack, which is often vital to grabbing early momentum for HO teams.

I don't generally like running suicide leads though its fine for webs since webs is such a game changer. But there are mons that you just can't keep from defogging under normal circumstances. Scarf lando is getting a defog off in a match at least once if their user is smart and commited. The best sticky web teams punish their opponent so much while webs are up that they feel like they can't afford to defog, but that's a tall ask to do in every battle. Most offense/balance teams should have a mon capable of 2HKOing shuckle which they should always lead against shuckle.

 

[Oddessy]

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled
- Thunder Wave
Clefable is a mon that’s on an all time low right now. This is due to the fact that Zygarde is usually running Iron Tail or Glare, and that many teams have Mawile or Heatran.
Clefable improves immensely with an unorthodox move Thunder Wave. Many people are unwary of this move. It allows Clefable to lure Toxapex, Mawile, Heatran, Volcarona, Celesteela and much more. It also allows Clefable to keep up Stealth Rock vs Tornadus-T.
Clefable isn’t great atm, but it’s not all bad. Clefable can fit well into teams that rely on Ferrothorn, Tangrowth, and Toxapex to check it as Clefable is a Dark-resist. It can also check current threats like Heracross, Landorus, and Hydreigon. Finally, Thunder Wave Clefable pairs very well with big threats like Mawile, Ash Greninja, and Volcarona, as they are much harder to check when your countermeasures are paralyzed. It also pairs well with Pokémon that hate anything Clefable lures.

 

[mvtc]

One lead ive been using a lot lately is skarmory with sash weak armor. It sounds ridiculous but it works wonders. Rocks and spikes on one pokemon is so good for ho. It also has taunt to prevent a lot of defogs and opposing rocks. Brave bird can ohko ho threats like medicham and lopunny and also it can pressure venusaur and bulu and tang to an extent. It is very much worth trying out if you are looking for a new lead

 

[Finchinator]

I feel like teams with non-Excadrill hazard leads (aka Skarmory stuff, mainly) are inherently inconsistent in SM due to the prevelance of convenient, faster Defog users that do not struggle to get in the game earlier on. The prime example would be Tornadus-T, but also Zapdos, Rotom-Wash, Tapu Koko, and even Landorus-T (if you don't lose too much from locking into Defog for a turn and then being forced to switch out) fit the bill. These teams really lost their consistency when Defog came out in XY and since then they have never been seen as too great. Azelf shined a few times here-and-there on Bird Spam in ORAS, but ultimately only setters who have a clear leg up on early game removal and other niches such as Mold Breaker Excadrill and Sash SD Explosion Landorus-T are worthwhile using in this type of spot, I reckon.

 

[mvtc]

The thing about skarmory is that with weak armor, a lot of the time it can keep rocks up vs torn lando gliscor etc. defog zapdos alongside rotom is typically slower than max speed skarmory anyways so it can just be taunted then you sack skarm and gain momentum. You do have a point though about tapu koko but i guess there really isnt a lead that keeps hazards up vs everything. The main perk about skarm that i was mentioning though was that you can have both spikes and rocks. A lot of HO teams currently are rather hazard reliant as stated a few posts up, and spike stack ho has been pretty popular not as much in the tour scene as on the ladder during sm. Typically dual hazard teams sacrifice 2 slots for leads for example sash landorus and sash gren on one team. Skarm can get up rocks and spikes very easily vs most things if not only rocks but it isnt perfect

 

[Adapt or Die]

The thing about skarmory is that with weak armor, a lot of the time it can keep rocks up vs torn lando gliscor etc. defog zapdos alongside rotom is typically slower than max speed skarmory anyways so it can just be taunted then you sack skarm and gain momentum. You do have a point though about tapu koko but i guess there really isnt a lead that keeps hazards up vs everything. The main perk about skarm that i was mentioning though was that you can have both spikes and rocks. A lot of HO teams currently are rather hazard reliant as stated a few posts up, and spike stack ho has been pretty popular not as much in the tour scene as on the ladder during sm. Typically dual hazard teams sacrifice 2 slots for leads for example sash landorus and sash gren on one team. Skarm can get up rocks and spikes very easily vs most things if not only rocks but it isnt perfect

I mentioned this in my earlier discussion about sticky web, but in general it's really hard to keep enough pressure so that the hazards stay up. And its even harder without webs lowering everythings speed. Granted HO isn't my scene as I primarily play balance and I guess now stall, but I have played against it and don't find it any better or worse at beating me than anything else. A smart scarf lando-t is always getting a defog off unless clicking defog loses the game. Torn is almost always getting a defog off if played smart. I think lead explosion lando-t is mostly a waste of thats mon talents, but at least its one for one trading with something most of the time to make it a 5 v. 5 battle. What is weak armor skarm doing? Setting up hazards and dying for those hazards to be removed 2 turns later?

 

[mvtc]

Well, yes and no, to answer your question. Often hazards pressure your opponent to defog them away ASAP, which depending on who their defogger is, one or more of your sweepers can take advantage of. Most defoggers are often also solo checks to a lot of ho threats like zapdos and z bounce gyarados, landorus and ddance zygarde, etc. If not this, then a vast majority of defoggers currently are parts of defensive backbones, so forcing the defogger to take heavy damage as punishment for defogging can make so much of a difference in the game as it can open up a wider range of sweeping opportunities. If they choose not to defog however, and deal with the immediate threat, they will often be put in range of another pokemon on your team that either forces them out or kills them. My point is that forcing your opponent, even a smart opponent to waste turns defogging away hazards can be used as a huge advantage so while at first it seems catastrophic for your hazards to be gone, it isnt always a bad thing and you can punish hard especially in this metagame since when playing with or against ho, every turn is crucial

 

[MikeDawg]

IDR who, but someone came up with rock tomb on lando to solve the torn issue. It really helps, and it should be standard for HO teams with lead lando, exca, and ninetales, imo.

It's a really safe move in general, since lando will move first next turn regardless of what the opponent does/sends in. Even if you are 1v1 vs torn or koko or whoever, you can just tank whatever hit with sash and use rock tomb. If they U-turn or go to something like their own lando, the switchin can't outspeed anyway. In both cases, you are free to set up rocks. If they kill you, you can force them out next turn because they are slow. If they want to stay and keep defogging, you can just use rock tomb/eq/whatever again for the KO. It also works well against other fast leads like Greninja. If they taunt, you move first next turn and are still at full. If they attack, you move first next turn and can rock or KO them.

If it's a slower, bulkier defogger like rotom, just use explosion to block the defog.

If your team is weak to opposing rocks or webs or screens, you can throw defog on too. Rock tomb means you can get the defog off guaranteed then choose whether it's more worth it to explode/attack and potentially not get hazards up yourself, or just switch something in to force them out.

Same with icy wind ninetales and screens.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I think I've made a set that can 0-6 most standard rain

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder/thunderbolt
- Agility
- Grass Knot
- Focus Blast

If they lead peppiler You agility and outspeed all the 95 swift swimmers and I'd adjusting the speed to creep so You can tank any banded aqua jets, specs water shuriken and can eat a koko u-turn into hawlauche stab move

252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 320-378 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers

No one runs max but it still cant switch in and not have protect minigames or have a lure berry and is still 2 hit killed by focus blast

The biggest problem is kingdra Z-focus blast only 1 hit kills 25% and thunder only goes to 90% but bulk adjustments should let You live surf/pump outside of rain

Otherwise thunderous literally outspeed and kills everything on rain peppiler could technically rock toxic and make a huge turn 1 call out

Also thunderous kind of needs hp ice for any other match up

Neat tech

 

[JinLong88]

I think I've made a set that can 0-6 most standard rain

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder/thunderbolt
- Agility
- Grass Knot
- Focus Blast

If they lead peppiler You agility and outspeed all the 95 swift swimmers and I'd adjusting the speed to creep so You can tank any banded aqua jets, specs water shuriken and can eat a koko u-turn into hawlauche stab move

252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 320-378 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers

No one runs max but it still cant switch in and not have protect minigames or have a lure berry and is still 2 hit killed by focus blast

The biggest problem is kingdra Z-focus blast only 1 hit kills 25% and thunder only goes to 90% but bulk adjustments should let You live surf/pump outside of rain

Otherwise thunderous literally outspeed and kills everything on rain peppiler could technically rock toxic and make a huge turn 1 call out

Also thunderous kind of needs hp ice for any other match up

Neat tech

I suppose this could be kind of done with Z-NM Koko too.

You lose out on the advantages of focus blast and the durability of volt absorb, flying resistances, and resistance to steel.

But you also don't have to worry about the drawbacks of flying type, and you'll have higher base speed, terrain support, stronger electric attack, and Z-NM gives a larger choice of which defensive poke to cripple (sadly only choose one, though I suppose regular NM can significantly wear down things in the long run)

 

[Adapt or Die]

I suppose this could be kind of done with Z-NM Koko too.

You lose out on the advantages of focus blast and the durability of volt absorb, flying resistances, and resistance to steel.

But you also don't have to worry about the drawbacks of flying type, and you'll have higher base speed, terrain support, stronger electric attack, and Z-NM gives a larger choice of which defensive poke to cripple (sadly only choose one, though I suppose regular NM can significantly wear down things in the long run)

I think if you're going to commit to running a weird set to have a mon 6-0 standard rain you should really commit to having a mon run a weird set to 6-0 standard rain. Guardian of Alola tapu koko is being 2HKoed by gyroball from ferrothorn while failing to 2hko back. Granted your opponent might set hazards assuming you switch out, but it still puts you in gren's shuriken range. Also if you fail to land Guardian of Alola on Ferrothorn you can do literally nothing to it while Focus blast from thundurus still 2HKoes.