Metagame USUM Monotype Metagame Discussion

EDIT: Oh and the fact that Chaitanya says there isn't a point to unbanning then immediately turns around and argues for Damp Rock unban because SS water is bad anyway is kind of ironic and funny to me. Zygarde is bad anyway, let it back in.
It isn’t ironic because unbanning Damp Rock would have a tangible effect on the meta by giving rain, a currently terrible playstyle, a buff. Whether or not this would push it over the edge or not is up to a potential suspect test.

What does unbanning Zygarde via a complex ban acomplish to change the meta? The pros I’ve seen can be summed up as “It would be cool xD”.
Thousand Arrows is a defining aspect of Zygarde this generation to the point where without it you have almost a different pokemon, which is confusing to new players to the tier coming from something like OU. The fact is Zygarde without TArrows doesn’t make a worthwile impact on this meta whatsoever, and it’s type/playstyles are not in desperate need of extra help like rain is.
 
This Zygarde discussion has spiraled way out of control. We don't like to say something is impossible when it comes to tiering, but I can give you my guarantee that Thousand Arrows is not going to be banned in order to allow Zygarde to be unbanned. It splits with our tiering policy on four levels: there is no real reason to change the status quo in the first place if Zygarde is apparently going to be irrelevant without it anyway, it bans a move that is not necessarily considered banworthy by our tiering philosophy to begin with, it focuses on the current low distribution of the move and prior state of Zygarde to avoid looking at the total sum of what made the Pokémon banned, and it sets terrible precedent to arbitrarily ban individual parts of a Pokemon that aren't themselves banworthy. It's simply out of the question.

If you want to discuss changing the very way we tier Monotype, then you should PM the council with your proposal, which is what we specifically requested in the thread opener. This thread is for metagame discussion and not tiering philosophy discussion. I'm fine with posts making arguments for unbanning Zygarde when they are made within the scope of how we tier Monotype because that’s the purpose of this thread. I'm not okay with posts asking us to completely rewrite the way Monotype is tiered in order to arbitrarily accommodate one particular Pokemon that has been banned for nearly two years without issue.

Let's not stifle more useful conversation by going completely off-topic here.
 
In regards of suspects and quickbans, do you guys focus on mons that make MU's their types don't normally win in that type's favor, or mons that make a mu that their type already wins even more of a win? Or is it some combination of both?
 

Moosical

big yikes
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And with that, I'm going to move the thread over to presenting the usage statistics for the three generations of Monotype in MPL4 and its comparisons to other previous team tours during Gen7. The usage stats for MPL4 can be found in this link.
As a reference, here are my posts for the three previous team tours this generation that I'll be comparing to, each contain a link to the usage stats for each of the tours: Monotype BLT / MWP / MPL3.

I would also like to point out that for the purposes of win rate, mirror matches count as 1 win and 1 loss. While this isn't a super huge deal, it does slightly skew the win rates toward the middle point (50%) for types used very frequently.
Prior to presenting the information, I'd like to summarize the changes in the metagames for each of these team tournaments. If we start with MPL3 as the "base metagame," then talk about the changes from there, they are as follow. Mega Medicham was banned in the middle of MPL3 (Week 4) which saw huge shifts in the usage of Psychic within the confines of that tournament, going from 20.42% usage to 6.52% usage pre- and post-ban (for the purposes of the MPL3 summary later, I will only talk about the "overall" usage, not pre- and post-ban). Shortly Following MPL3, Magearna was banned from SM Monotype which also saw big shifts in team composition. [Marshadow was released and quickbanned following MPL3 - not affecting any tournament play]. A little while later Shadow Tag was tested and banned in SM Monotype as well. Prior to MWP but after MPL3, we also saw the release of several Mega stones, most notably Altarianite, Lopunnite, Latiasite, Galladite, and Diancite. Next up was MWP, which also saw the release of USUM. This brought Pokemon such as Stakataka, Naganadel, and Blacephalon into the field of play. Naganadel was banned shortly after release, but in the middle of MWP. Following MWP, nothing was banned, allowing Monotype BLT to have the same banlist as the second half of MWP. Then going into MPL4, nothing was banned yet again; however, Zeraora was released prior to Week 6 of MPL4, although it did not impact the metagame much. Now into usage stats -

Starting with MPL4, there were 147 games played, 294 teams used.

There was surprisingly a good distribution of types used; the only two types used >10% of the time were Water (16.67%) and Psychic (13.61%). However, close runner-ups included Flying (9.86%), Normal (9.86%), and Fairy (9.18%).

Of these 5 types, Flying had the highest win rate of 65.52%, followed by Psychic (57.50%) and Fairy (51.85%). Water and Normal both had negative win rates (48.98% and 44.83%, respectively).

I would like to point out that Bug and Ground, which are typically considered decently good types, were only used in 1.36% and 2.38% of games, respectively.

Following this, I'll be hiding each previous tour with their comparison to MPL4 for the sake of organization.

Monotype BLT had a very low number of USUM games played at a measly 31, with 62 teams used. Therefore, due to the small sample size, this will be very brief.

The most used types within this tournament were Water (20.97%), Psychic (14.52%), Fairy (12.90%), and Normal (11.29%). The overall usage between the types was mostly comparable to MPL4, as would be expected as there were no changes to the metagame between these two tournaments.
MWP had a much smaller number of games played than MPL4, at 90 games (180 teams used). However, this is still a fair number for the purposes of comparisons. As I mentioned before, we saw the release of new Mega Stones, Stakataka, Blacephalon, and Naganadel, as well as the bans of Magearna and Shadow Tag.

The most commonly used types were Water (14.44%), Psychic (13.33%), Steel (12.22%), and Flying (10%). The same wide distribution of types was seen in this tournament, as compared to MPL4, and the overall usage was mostly comparable between the two tournaments.

While the USUM metagame wasn't completely "settled" during MWP, due to the release of new games and move tutors (Defog), it wasn't such a huge change to the meta where big differences could be seen. I would say the major difference was in the usage of Steel, in which many people in MWP were trying out Stakataka teams.
This is the meat of the discussion, MPL3 vs. MPL4. MPL3 had a total of 140 SM games played, with 280 teams used. As I said before, I won't be splitting up this discussion into pre- and post-Mega Medicham ban.

The most commonly used types in MPL3 were Psychic (13.57%), Water (12.86%), Fairy (11.43%), and Flying (11.07%). Steel closely trailed behind at 9.29% usage.

Of these types, Psychic had the highest win rate of 60.53%, followed by Steel (53.85%), and Fairy (53.13%). Water and Flying both had (terribly) negative win rates of 41.67% and 38.71%, respectively.

While the usage of the most commonly used types were comparable between MPL3 and MPL4, there was still a notable drop-off in the usage of Steel, likely attributed to losing Magearna and the upcoming surge of Water. Looking more broadly, however, there was also a drop-off in the usage of Ground, Bug, and Poison when comparing MPL3 to MPL4, as well as a slight rise in the usage of Dragon and Electric, and a large rise in the usage of Normal. These differences, in my opinion, are in a big part attributed to the releases of new mega stones, with the exception of Electric, which did not gain or lose much between the two tournaments. Going off of memory, I believe the biggest change in the metagame is the overall shift from offense to defensive teams vs. breakers. The popularity of balance Water, Flying, and Normal rose significantly since MPL3, and the usage of HO builds like Psychic have been seeing much less usage as of late. I'm sure there are a million differences to be seen when comparing actual replays, so I highly suggest looking back at the old replays thread and comparing it to the most recent one.
Before I get into it, ORAS usage stats should (hopefully) be interesting as there were three bans in ORAS Monotype following MPL3: Hoopa-U, Baton Pass, and Shadow Tag. One would think that these three bans would impact the usage of Psychic and/or its win rate when comparing MPL4 to MPL3.

Within MPL4, there were 88 ORAS games played, 176 teams used.

The most used types were Water (19.89%), Psychic (18.18%), and Flying (11.93%). All other types were used in <10% of games played (aka used <17 times).

Of these three types, Water had the highest win rate of 54.29% followed by Flying at 52.38%. Psychic had a negative win rate of 46.88%.
Notably, however, I would like to point out that Dragon had a 73.33% win rate, and was used in 8.52% of games. This is likely attributed due to its favorable matchup against Water, the infrequency of Fairy (as compared to SM), and likely having a favorable matchup vs. Psychic due to the more common usage of Hydreigon.

In MPL3, there were 61 ORAS games played, 122 teams used. Although there were 2 ORAS slots in both of these tours, MPL4 had the multigen slot which attributed to much more ORAS games played.

The only two types were used in >10% of games played, those being Psychic (17.21%) and Water (14.75%). There was a much wider distribution of types played in ORAS in MPL3 as compared to MPL4. Therefore, going beyond 10%, the next most frequently used types were Normal (9.84%), Flying (9.84%), and Fighting (9.02%).

Of these five types, Flying had the highest win rate of 66.67%, followed by Normal (58.33%), Fighting (54.54%), and Water (50%). Most notably, Psychic had a negative win rate of 42.86%. Without looking at the actual replays from this tour, I would say that the low win rate of Psychic could be attributed to the extent that players went in order to overcome Psychic, purposely building teams that specifically target that matchup due to its overwhelming presence in the metagame at the time.

You can also see a higher usage of Bug in MPL3 than in MPL4 (6.56% vs. 3.41%). However, for both tournaments, Dark had nearly no usage, even as a Psychic counter due to its lack of Mega Sableye and inability to effectively deal with Mega Medicham. Similarly, Ghost had no usage at all as it has too many bad matchups to compensate for its effectiveness against Psychic, even without Hoopa-U.

While the overall usage of individual types didn't really change that much between the two tournaments, I can say it's safe to assume that team composition for most types shifted in this tournament as the need to directly counter Psychic lessened, giving more flexibility in team building without having to worry about Hoopa-U or Shadow Tag.
Within this tournament, there were 56 BW games played, meaning 112 teams used.
The most used types were Fighting (14.29%), Psychic (13.39%), Steel (13.39%), Dragon (11.61%), and Water (11.61%).
Of these 5 types, Water had the highest win rate at 61.54%, followed closely by Psychic (60%) and Fighting (56.25%). Dragon and Steel won <50% of the times they were used (46.15% and 46.67%, respectively).

Comparatively, MPL3 had 60 BW games played, 120 teams used.
The most used types within MPL3 were Dragon (15%), Fighting (14.17%), Water (13.33%), Psychic (11.67%), and Steel (10.83%).
Of these types, Steel had the highest win rate (69.23%), followed by Dragon (55.55%) and Water (50%). Fighting and Psychic both had negative win rates, at 47.06% and 35.71%, respectively.

The usage stats between these two tournaments is relatively the same, as would be expected for a generation of Monotype that hasn't had any changes between tournaments, and really isn't played frequently. However, there is a discrepancy in the win rates between the two tournaments, with Steel having a very high win rate and Psychic having an abysmally low win rate. This could likely be attributed by individual matchups / predicting what the opponent is using accurately. However, that's beyond the scope of how much digging I'm willing to do.
 
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The Big Bad Three: A Discussion on Rain in Monotype



I think we all know that offensive rain Water is an all-around underwhelming playstyle in the current meta. Because of this I wanted to discuss why the archeotype is weak, the potential pros and cons of suspecting and unbanning Damp Rock, and the affects it would have on the meta of rain teams.

Why Does Rain Suck Now?
Damp Rock was chopped in the first wave of bans at the beginning of SM due to the many mons being unreleased and the meta being undeveloped from what I assume, since I couldn't dig up an actual ban explanation. In fact, I believe it has been banned since the beginning of Gen 6 Mono with not much thought given to it, since the Gen 6 history article doesn't mention it's ban reasoning but only the fact it was banned (https://www.smogon.com/articles/oras-monotype-retrospective If a long time mono player could tell me the story behind the Damp Rock bans I would love to hear it!). Right now in USUM the playstyle in a pretty poor spot as reflected by Pelliper and Kingdra sitting at C rank despite it being a fairly iconic archeotype. If Damp Rock were to be unbanned it would obviously be a nice buff for rain teams, giving them a lot more breathing room to pull a sweep off. I don't think it would immediately make the archeotype overpowered because the biggest issue with rain in the meta is how it struggles to break common defensive cores found within the meta, thus finding it's sweepers easily walled and forced out by a single mon on the most common balance types, such as Poison, Flying, Water, Steel, and Normal.



I see these 5 pokemon as the main culprits to rain's poor viability in the current metagame. They all have the ability to shrug off almost any hit from Mega Swampert or Kingdra thanks either their typing and bulk (it's actually only the raw bulk in the case of the Eviolite duo). This forces rain teams to lose heavy momentum rely on teammates like Keldeo and Gyarados to deal with these walls.



Rain teams find themselves with only one breaker to check each of these, 2 if they are lucky, making them an absolute nuisance and flat-out walling the archeotype when played properly.

While offensive teams are generally much more vulnerable to rain due to lack of formidable switch-ins, types like Psychic, Fairy, Dragon, and even Ground still have reliable checks to rain sweepers.



In adittion, rain often finds itself getting vulnerable to reverse sweeps due to the type relying on spamming Water STABs, meaning any setup sweeper that can tank multiple or even one of these can become an immediate threat do due the archeotype lacking a strong defensive backbone.

The reason I bring this up is I don't see limited rain turns as a reason why rain is a weak archeotype in the current metagame. The fact is, if the path can be cleared of defensive checks, Mega Swampert and Kingdra quickly clean up teams with 5 turns of rain, especially offensive ones.

Before I continue I will address some new innovation on rain teams myself and the community have explored to help the playstyle manage it's flaws better.

One option that people have tried is a sort of "Bulky Offense Rain" with usually Empoleon+Toxapex+Pelliper as a servicable defensive core and Mega Swampert (who has freed up moveslots since Empoleon runs rocks and Toxapex checks Bulu) as the only rain abuser. This makes the archetype less reliable on rain and have a nice defensive backbone to offer hazard support and reliable answers to threats like Tapu Bulu, Mega Altaria, and Double Dance Mew.



I was skeptical of this type of team at first but after using it a bit I can say I find it more viable than fully offensive rain team in this current meta due to it simply downplaying abusing rain an instead saving it for late-game cleaning. However these teams still generally pale in comparison to the dominant Water balances that have slowly taken over the Monotype tier as shown by it having a 16.67% usage rate during MPL4, the highest of any type (and I don't think any of them were using a rain team).

An interesting option for a sweeper on Rain teams that I have had some minor success with while testing is Kabutops. Though it was mainly used early SM when options were limited, I think it has a niche as a rain sweeper in this meta due to it being able to break through the big 5 walls mentioned earlier with Swords Dance while still having sweeping potential even without boosts due to good natural attack. Here's the set I use:


Kabutops @ Rockium Z
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall
- Superpower

Here's a wall of calcs showing how it fares vs the walls listed above. An obvious flaw is it relying on using Swords Dance as they switch-in since it's typing leaves it with an unfortunate x4 weakness to the Grass types it is meant to break, however I still think it is a competent anti-meta pick for rain teams.

+2 252+ Atk Kabutops Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 370-436 (101.9 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 440-522 (117.6 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Kabutops Superpower vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Ferrothorn: 394-464 (111.9 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Kabutops Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 523-616 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Kabutops Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 696-820 (99 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Kabutops Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 304-358 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I think my final point for this section is rain teams don't really struggle due to lack of rain turns, more of simply their sweepers getting walled by defensive staples on balance teams that are extremely common in Monotype. This is why I see Damp Rock as something that might not make the play style overbearing, but give it alot more breathing room without being too dominant.

Pros and Cons
Pros
-Rain would get a much needed buff
-Rain would get a much needed buff (This counts for 2 since it is a big deal ok trust me)
-Some unused pokemon related to rain might become relevant (Politoed, Kabutops, idk)

Cons
-Offensive types, especially lower-tier ones like Rock, Fire, and Bug, would find Rain an even more one-sided matchup
-Some types that previously relied on a single Pokemon to check rain (Fairy lol) would now face far more pressure to check it
-Stalling rain turns is no longer as reliable of a strategy to beat the playstyle

How Would Rain Teams Change?
I think the biggest impact of 8 turns of rain would be the massively increased viability and potency of boosting moves+rain. I think Power-Up Punch Mega Swampert is already a solid set, but having 8 turns of rain to abuse with +1 on top of already monstrous Attack will make this thing a terrifying threat. It shouldn't find it difficult to take a turn or two to boost thanks to it's good bulk and typing and ability to very easily force switches. I also think Swords Dance Kabutops would become an even more effective sweeper and breaker with 8 turns to abuse with +2 attack and a solid STAB combo.



Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Power-Up Punch
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Sludge Wave / Stealth Rock / Stone Edge / Ice Punch

Kabutops @ Rockium Z
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall
- Superpower

Kingdra is in an interesting spot due to Draco Meteor's -2 drops making it often forced out anyway, making extra rain turns not a huge impact for it. It still will obviously benefit from having more opportunities to switch in and reek havoc with boosted speed, but physical Dragon Dance+Z-Move sets might be interesting for avoiding losing steam too early while still having breaking power. Or maybe Dragon Pulse? Who knows, would really be interesting to see what people would do with this mon.



Conclusion
I think Rain is an interesting off-shoot of Water teams that could maybe potentially use a Damp Rock unban to bring it back into relevance. Whether or not it would be OP is up to a suspect test. I would love to hear feedback about what other mono players think unbanning Damp Rock would have on the meta and corrections for my mistakes and misunderstandings since I am always willing to learn new things about the Monotype meta!
 
The Big Bad Three: A Discussion on Rain in Monotype



I think we all know that offensive rain Water is an all-around underwhelming playstyle in the current meta. Because of this I wanted to discuss why the archeotype is weak, the potential pros and cons of suspecting and unbanning Damp Rock, and the affects it would have on the meta of rain teams.

Why Does Rain Suck Now?
Damp Rock was chopped in the first wave of bans at the beginning of SM due to the many mons being unreleased and the meta being undeveloped from what I assume, since I couldn't dig up an actual ban explanation. In fact, I believe it has been banned since the beginning of Gen 6 Mono with not much thought given to it, since the Gen 6 history article doesn't mention it's ban reasoning but only the fact it was banned (https://www.smogon.com/articles/oras-monotype-retrospective If a long time mono player could tell me the story behind the Damp Rock bans I would love to hear it!). Right now in USUM the playstyle in a pretty poor spot as reflected by Pelliper and Kingdra sitting at C rank despite it being a fairly iconic archeotype. If Damp Rock were to be unbanned it would obviously be a nice buff for rain teams, giving them a lot more breathing room to pull a sweep off. I don't think it would immediately make the archeotype overpowered because the biggest issue with rain in the meta is how it struggles to break common defensive cores found within the meta, thus finding it's sweepers easily walled and forced out by a single mon on the most common balance types, such as Poison, Flying, Water, Steel, and Normal.



I see these 5 pokemon as the main culprits to rain's poor viability in the current metagame. They all have the ability to shrug off almost any hit from Mega Swampert or Kingdra thanks either their typing and bulk (it's actually only the raw bulk in the case of the Eviolite duo). This forces rain teams to lose heavy momentum rely on teammates like Keldeo and Gyarados to deal with these walls.



Rain teams find themselves with only one breaker to check each of these, 2 if they are lucky, making them an absolute nuisance and flat-out walling the archeotype when played properly.

While offensive teams are generally much more vulnerable to rain due to lack of formidable switch-ins, types like Psychic, Fairy, Dragon, and even Ground still have reliable checks to rain sweepers.



In adittion, rain often finds itself getting vulnerable to reverse sweeps due to the type relying on spamming Water STABs, meaning any setup sweeper that can tank multiple or even one of these can become an immediate threat do due the archeotype lacking a strong defensive backbone.

The reason I bring this up is I don't see limited rain turns as a reason why rain is a weak archeotype in the current metagame. The fact is, if the path can be cleared of defensive checks, Mega Swampert and Kingdra quickly clean up teams with 5 turns of rain, especially offensive ones.

Before I continue I will address some new innovation on rain teams myself and the community have explored to help the playstyle manage it's flaws better.

One option that people have tried is a sort of "Bulky Offense Rain" with usually Empoleon+Toxapex+Pelliper as a servicable defensive core and Mega Swampert (who has freed up moveslots since Empoleon runs rocks and Toxapex checks Bulu) as the only rain abuser. This makes the archetype less reliable on rain and have a nice defensive backbone to offer hazard support and reliable answers to threats like Tapu Bulu, Mega Altaria, and Double Dance Mew.



I was skeptical of this type of team at first but after using it a bit I can say I find it more viable than fully offensive rain team in this current meta due to it simply downplaying abusing rain an instead saving it for late-game cleaning. However these teams still generally pale in comparison to the dominant Water balances that have slowly taken over the Monotype tier as shown by it having a 16.67% usage rate during MPL4, the highest of any type (and I don't think any of them were using a rain team).

An interesting option for a sweeper on Rain teams that I have had some minor success with while testing is Kabutops. Though it was mainly used early SM when options were limited, I think it has a niche as a rain sweeper in this meta due to it being able to break through the big 5 walls mentioned earlier with Swords Dance while still having sweeping potential even without boosts due to good natural attack. Here's the set I use:


Kabutops @ Rockium Z
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall
- Superpower

Here's a wall of calcs showing how it fares vs the walls listed above. An obvious flaw is it relying on using Swords Dance as they switch-in since it's typing leaves it with an unfortunate x4 weakness to the Grass types it is meant to break, however I still think it is a competent anti-meta pick for rain teams.

+2 252+ Atk Kabutops Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 370-436 (101.9 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 440-522 (117.6 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Kabutops Superpower vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Ferrothorn: 394-464 (111.9 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Kabutops Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 523-616 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Kabutops Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 696-820 (99 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Kabutops Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 304-358 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I think my final point for this section is rain teams don't really struggle due to lack of rain turns, more of simply their sweepers getting walled by defensive staples on balance teams that are extremely common in Monotype. This is why I see Damp Rock as something that might not make the play style overbearing, but give it alot more breathing room without being too dominant.

Pros and Cons
Pros
-Rain would get a much needed buff
-Rain would get a much needed buff (This counts for 2 since it is a big deal ok trust me)
-Some unused pokemon related to rain might become relevant (Politoed, Kabutops, idk)

Cons
-Offensive types, especially lower-tier ones like Rock, Fire, and Bug, would find Rain an even more one-sided matchup
-Some types that previously relied on a single Pokemon to check rain (Fairy lol) would now face far more pressure to check it
-Stalling rain turns is no longer as reliable of a strategy to beat the playstyle

How Would Rain Teams Change?
I think the biggest impact of 8 turns of rain would be the massively increased viability and potency of boosting moves+rain. I think Power-Up Punch Mega Swampert is already a solid set, but having 8 turns of rain to abuse with +1 on top of already monstrous Attack will make this thing a terrifying threat. It shouldn't find it difficult to take a turn or two to boost thanks to it's good bulk and typing and ability to very easily force switches. I also think Swords Dance Kabutops would become an even more effective sweeper and breaker with 8 turns to abuse with +2 attack and a solid STAB combo.



Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Power-Up Punch
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Sludge Wave / Stealth Rock / Stone Edge / Ice Punch

Kabutops @ Rockium Z
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall
- Superpower

Kingdra is in an interesting spot due to Draco Meteor's -2 drops making it often forced out anyway, making extra rain turns not a huge impact for it. It still will obviously benefit from having more opportunities to switch in and reek havoc with boosted speed, but physical Dragon Dance+Z-Move sets might be interesting for avoiding losing steam too early while still having breaking power. Or maybe Dragon Pulse? Who knows, would really be interesting to see what people would do with this mon.



Conclusion
I think Rain is an interesting off-shoot of Water teams that could maybe potentially use a Damp Rock unban to bring it back into relevance. Whether or not it would be OP is up to a suspect test. I would love to hear feedback about what other mono players think unbanning Damp Rock would have on the meta and corrections for my mistakes and misunderstandings since I am always willing to learn new things about the Monotype meta!
This is an interesting topic to talk about and I would like to give some of my cents about it. While it does look you are right at Rain Water being pretty underwhelming right now, I believe unbanning Damp Rock could lead to metagame centralization in terms of teambuilding, especially against other teams that are weather-reliant (like Ground and Fire for example) or have a natural disadvantage against Water. This could even affec several hyper offensive playstyles like Dragon and Fairy, and thus they would have to run more specific Pokemon to have better chances at winning that matchup.

Let's look at it: With Damp Rock avaliable you are able to abuse 8 turns of weather, and this not only would affect the current rain abusers with Swift Swim, but would also allow setup sweeper Pokemon like Gyarados to boost its damage output to much greater levels (since the opportunities of abusing both dragon dance and rain simultaneously largely increases overall) without having to switch in immediately. Furthermore, more turns of weather means Pelipper needs to come much less often (and this momentum-loss is part of why Rain isn't that efficient at the moment), and therefore more offensive pressure can be kept at most stages of the game, especially on mid-late game scenarios.

Previous generations where Damp Rock's ban took place surely had a worse background, though. The amount of Pokemon that could handle offensive Water playstyles was more limited than it is now (for example, Mantine didn't have Roost in Gen 6, and was one of the worst Pokemon avaliable). Some other Pokemon, like Mega-Slowbro and Mega-Altaria, which could be potential useful Pokemon versus Rain water, were not allowed, and the metagame had a more offensive approach (since there were less staple defensive Pokemon like Celesteela and Toxapex around) as a whole, and Rain clearly has an advantage with its great speed control against this particular archetype.

Conclusion: While I agree that in Generation 7 Damp Rock isn't really broken, I think unbanning it could be potentially unhealthy for the metagame, mostly because it affects type diversity negatively and forces more teams to consider Water's offensive prowess when teambuilding. Water is already one of the best types right now and even with rain being very underwhelming / lackluster, Water as a whole is considered one of the most versatile types (if not the most) in terms of viable playstyles and viable builds that can be accounted both for ladder and tournament scenarios.
 
The Big Bad Three: A Discussion on Rain in Monotype



I think we all know that offensive rain Water is an all-around underwhelming playstyle in the current meta. Because of this I wanted to discuss why the archeotype is weak, the potential pros and cons of suspecting and unbanning Damp Rock, and the affects it would have on the meta of rain teams.

Why Does Rain Suck Now?
Damp Rock was chopped in the first wave of bans at the beginning of SM due to the many mons being unreleased and the meta being undeveloped from what I assume, since I couldn't dig up an actual ban explanation. In fact, I believe it has been banned since the beginning of Gen 6 Mono with not much thought given to it, since the Gen 6 history article doesn't mention it's ban reasoning but only the fact it was banned (https://www.smogon.com/articles/oras-monotype-retrospective If a long time mono player could tell me the story behind the Damp Rock bans I would love to hear it!). Right now in USUM the playstyle in a pretty poor spot as reflected by Pelliper and Kingdra sitting at C rank despite it being a fairly iconic archeotype. If Damp Rock were to be unbanned it would obviously be a nice buff for rain teams, giving them a lot more breathing room to pull a sweep off. I don't think it would immediately make the archeotype overpowered because the biggest issue with rain in the meta is how it struggles to break common defensive cores found within the meta, thus finding it's sweepers easily walled and forced out by a single mon on the most common balance types, such as Poison, Flying, Water, Steel, and Normal.



I see these 5 pokemon as the main culprits to rain's poor viability in the current metagame. They all have the ability to shrug off almost any hit from Mega Swampert or Kingdra thanks either their typing and bulk (it's actually only the raw bulk in the case of the Eviolite duo). This forces rain teams to lose heavy momentum rely on teammates like Keldeo and Gyarados to deal with these walls.



Rain teams find themselves with only one breaker to check each of these, 2 if they are lucky, making them an absolute nuisance and flat-out walling the archeotype when played properly.

While offensive teams are generally much more vulnerable to rain due to lack of formidable switch-ins, types like Psychic, Fairy, Dragon, and even Ground still have reliable checks to rain sweepers.



In adittion, rain often finds itself getting vulnerable to reverse sweeps due to the type relying on spamming Water STABs, meaning any setup sweeper that can tank multiple or even one of these can become an immediate threat do due the archeotype lacking a strong defensive backbone.

The reason I bring this up is I don't see limited rain turns as a reason why rain is a weak archeotype in the current metagame. The fact is, if the path can be cleared of defensive checks, Mega Swampert and Kingdra quickly clean up teams with 5 turns of rain, especially offensive ones.

Before I continue I will address some new innovation on rain teams myself and the community have explored to help the playstyle manage it's flaws better.

One option that people have tried is a sort of "Bulky Offense Rain" with usually Empoleon+Toxapex+Pelliper as a servicable defensive core and Mega Swampert (who has freed up moveslots since Empoleon runs rocks and Toxapex checks Bulu) as the only rain abuser. This makes the archetype less reliable on rain and have a nice defensive backbone to offer hazard support and reliable answers to threats like Tapu Bulu, Mega Altaria, and Double Dance Mew.



I was skeptical of this type of team at first but after using it a bit I can say I find it more viable than fully offensive rain team in this current meta due to it simply downplaying abusing rain an instead saving it for late-game cleaning. However these teams still generally pale in comparison to the dominant Water balances that have slowly taken over the Monotype tier as shown by it having a 16.67% usage rate during MPL4, the highest of any type (and I don't think any of them were using a rain team).

An interesting option for a sweeper on Rain teams that I have had some minor success with while testing is Kabutops. Though it was mainly used early SM when options were limited, I think it has a niche as a rain sweeper in this meta due to it being able to break through the big 5 walls mentioned earlier with Swords Dance while still having sweeping potential even without boosts due to good natural attack. Here's the set I use:


Kabutops @ Rockium Z
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall
- Superpower

Here's a wall of calcs showing how it fares vs the walls listed above. An obvious flaw is it relying on using Swords Dance as they switch-in since it's typing leaves it with an unfortunate x4 weakness to the Grass types it is meant to break, however I still think it is a competent anti-meta pick for rain teams.

+2 252+ Atk Kabutops Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 370-436 (101.9 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 440-522 (117.6 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Kabutops Superpower vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Ferrothorn: 394-464 (111.9 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Kabutops Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 523-616 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Kabutops Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 696-820 (99 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Kabutops Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 304-358 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I think my final point for this section is rain teams don't really struggle due to lack of rain turns, more of simply their sweepers getting walled by defensive staples on balance teams that are extremely common in Monotype. This is why I see Damp Rock as something that might not make the play style overbearing, but give it alot more breathing room without being too dominant.

Pros and Cons
Pros
-Rain would get a much needed buff
-Rain would get a much needed buff (This counts for 2 since it is a big deal ok trust me)
-Some unused pokemon related to rain might become relevant (Politoed, Kabutops, idk)

Cons
-Offensive types, especially lower-tier ones like Rock, Fire, and Bug, would find Rain an even more one-sided matchup
-Some types that previously relied on a single Pokemon to check rain (Fairy lol) would now face far more pressure to check it
-Stalling rain turns is no longer as reliable of a strategy to beat the playstyle

How Would Rain Teams Change?
I think the biggest impact of 8 turns of rain would be the massively increased viability and potency of boosting moves+rain. I think Power-Up Punch Mega Swampert is already a solid set, but having 8 turns of rain to abuse with +1 on top of already monstrous Attack will make this thing a terrifying threat. It shouldn't find it difficult to take a turn or two to boost thanks to it's good bulk and typing and ability to very easily force switches. I also think Swords Dance Kabutops would become an even more effective sweeper and breaker with 8 turns to abuse with +2 attack and a solid STAB combo.



Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Power-Up Punch
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Sludge Wave / Stealth Rock / Stone Edge / Ice Punch

Kabutops @ Rockium Z
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall
- Superpower

Kingdra is in an interesting spot due to Draco Meteor's -2 drops making it often forced out anyway, making extra rain turns not a huge impact for it. It still will obviously benefit from having more opportunities to switch in and reek havoc with boosted speed, but physical Dragon Dance+Z-Move sets might be interesting for avoiding losing steam too early while still having breaking power. Or maybe Dragon Pulse? Who knows, would really be interesting to see what people would do with this mon.



Conclusion
I think Rain is an interesting off-shoot of Water teams that could maybe potentially use a Damp Rock unban to bring it back into relevance. Whether or not it would be OP is up to a suspect test. I would love to hear feedback about what other mono players think unbanning Damp Rock would have on the meta and corrections for my mistakes and misunderstandings since I am always willing to learn new things about the Monotype meta!
I'll start things off by saying that I would find Damp Rock as an interesting unban potentially to give Rain Offense another chance at becoming more viable. In gen 6, it was a relatively prevalent archetype to use for it's time and, in the right hands, would provide a player with moderate success. However, in this generation, Rain Offense seems to be at an all-time low in usage due to more types having cores that can better handle the offensive pressure it provides. That being said, I feel there has been a few other methods of dealing with the new bulky cores of this generation.

With that being said, I would like to address some of the cores the Rain Offense has the potential to deal with while not losing out on too much for the archetype overall.

The first core I'd like to address would be Mantine + Toxapex on Balanced Water which this archetype has relative ease handling dealing with Rain Offense:
Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Power-Up Punch
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
As Guwahavel mentioned, there would probably be more PuP sets ran on Swampert with 8 turns of rain. However, this set in particular could handle the combination of Mantine + Toxapex on its own.

+1 252 Atk Swampert-Mega Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Mantine: 396-468 (105.8 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Swampert-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 290-344 (95.3 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery


Earlier this gen, I noticed that Mantine almost entirely walled Rain Offense by itself being able to Roost off any damage thrown at it that wasn't HP Electric Keldeo. I was kind of stumped on how to break it with something else other than Keldeo until a friend of mine suggested Stone Edge over Ice Punch on Swampert. Sure enough, it pressured and often forced out Mantine. Also, since typically on Balanced Water the Haze user is Mantine over Toxapex, it's more pressure on Mantine to keep Swampert from setting up and punching a hole through the team which Damp Rock would highly allow that to happen. This was a set I typically didn't see too often or mentioned anywhere.

Greninja @ Expert Belt
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Beam
- Gunk Shot
- Dark Pulse
- Hidden Power Electric
With 8 turns of rain, there would be less influence to run Scarf Greninja over a non-choiced Greninja. This is just one set that could be used in conjunction with Greninja's flexible movepool. There are also Sash sets with Spikes, Z-Happy Hour, Life Orb, etc. Not to mention, this set also helps greatly with the Flying matchup.

Moving on, let me go over the Venusaur-Mega + Toxapex core vs. Rain Offense:

Gyarados @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Taunt
- Bounce
- Earthquake
This is a set a my buddy nomadderwhat suggested to me while we were talking about Water overall and how this set, after 2 Dragon Dances, entirely sweeps Poison. The combination of Taunt + Earthquake puts pressure Poison since majority of its mons after slower than Gyarados bar Scarf Nihilego. Taunt preventing Toxapex from using Haze, Crobat from using Roost or Defog, and Venusaur from using Leech Seed for passive recovery. Earthquake to handle any Poison mon that's not Crobat, Z-Bounce for Venusaur, and Moxie to top it all off to secure a sweep given you're at +2 Speed or +1 if they don't have a Scarf mon that's faster than Gyarados.

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 170-202 (55.9 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 492-578 (135.1 - 158.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 120 Def Crobat: 399-469 (106.9 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Muk-Alola: 388-458 (93.9 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO


As far as Chansey + Porygon2 on Normal, it's mainly on Choiced Specs Keldeo to handle that core. Same case against Ferrothorn on Steel or Grass.

Now onto Tapu Bulu:
Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 232 Atk / 24 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Sludge Wave
I'm sure a few others remember this set that was used to counter Bulu on Fairy around the time Mega Swampert was reintroduced. Sludge Wave was for Bulu and Bulu only since that mon is a total nightmare for Rain Offense.

24 SpA Swampert Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 256-304 (90.7 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

Honestly, I never thought it was worth it. It would be more beneficial to run Sap Sipper Azumarill as your Bulu switchin.

These sets are just a few things, in addition to Guwahavel's suggestions in his post, that I feel would appear more often on Rain Offense teams if Damp Rock was unbanned. Do I think Damp Rock should receive a potential suspect test? Sure, would be interesting. Do I feel Damp Rock is too much for this meta? Hard to tell, it's mainly speculation but I do believe teambuilders would keep it in mind more often than now. I would love to go more in-depth for other bulky mons than Rain Offense would have to encounter, but it's 4am and this post is long enough.

I would love to hear anyone else's sets/spreads and opinions on the ones I posted.
 

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RMT & Mono Leader
Substitute + Swords Dance Tapu Bulu (Fairy)


Tapu Bulu @ Life Orb
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Horn Leech
- Zen Headbutt / Superpower
- Substitute

This Tapu Bulu set is very strong in Monotype at the moment, being able to capitalize on Defensive pokemon fairly easily when they come in and being able to setup a substitute. This makes it harder to break Tapu Bulu and forces your opponent to sack a number of mons if they lack a hard counter. Conventional checks to Tapu Bulu on Water and Ground Monotypes are somewhat nullified as it can easily setup a Substitute on Swampert and Hippowdon. Moreover, it forces the switches into usual checks such like Excadrill and Landorus on Ground and Sap Sipper Azumarill and Greninja to be less effective. Substitute also allows it to bypass Sap Sipper Azumarill's Whirlpool as it can not be trapped behind a Substitute. Perish Song can still be used, but is less effective since Tapu Bulu can always switch out, while grassy terrain heals its sub damage back. Only a few Pokemon such as Mandibuzz can truly wall it, however it can be easily taken down by Bulu's teammates on Fairy. Zen Headbutt can also hit pokemon such as Mega Venusaur and Crobat for good damage allowing them to not wall it. Superpower can hurt Pokemon such as Jirachi and Celesteela with a Swords Dance boost as well as OHKO pokemon such as Ferrothorn which would otherwise wall it quite easily.

Replays showcasing the set:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-797297205
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-797303614
In these replays the Tapu Bulu made a complete mockery of the typical checks to it being Greninja + Sap Sipper Azumarill and Dugtrio+Excadrill. It easily pressured the defensive walls to not play safely which is what they are suppose to be used for and made the offensive Greninja's task very difficult in trying to take down Tapu Bulu by locking itself into Gunk Shot giving Klefki a free switchin, and then giving Tapu Koko leeway to clean throughout the game.

Anyways, what are all of your thoughts on this Tapu Bulu set, best ways to run it, and how it will affect the metagame (especially with the type of teams that are popular right now)? What do you all think about this set especially with all the fat teams running around!
 
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Substitute + Swords Dance Tapu Bulu (Fairy)


Tapu Bulu @ Life Orb
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Horn Leech
- Zen Headbutt / Superpower
- Substitute

This Tapu Bulu set is very strong in Monotype at the moment, being able to capitalize on Defensive pokemon fairly easily when they come in and being able to setup a substitute. This makes it harder to break Tapu Bulu and forces your opponent to sack a number of mons if they lack a hard counter. Conventional checks to Tapu Bulu on Water and Ground Monotypes are somewhat nullified as it can easily setup a Substitute on Swampert and Hippowdon. Moreover, it forces the switches into usual checks such like Excadrill and Landorus on Ground and Sap Sipper Azumarill and Greninja to be less effective. Substitute also allows it to bypass Sap Sipper Azumarill's Whirlpool as it can not be trapped behind a Substitute. Perish Song can still be used, but is less effective since Tapu Bulu can always switch out, while grassy terrain heals its sub damage back. Only a few Pokemon such as Mandibuzz can truly wall it, however it can be easily taken down by Bulu's teammates on Fairy. Zen Headbutt can also hit pokemon such as Mega Venusaur and Crobat for good damage allowing them to not wall it. Superpower can hurt Pokemon such as Jirachi and Celesteela with a Swords Dance boost as well as OHKO pokemon such as Ferrothorn which would otherwise wall it quite easily.

Replays showcasing the set:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-797297205
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-797303614
In these replays the Tapu Bulu made a complete mockery of the typical checks to it being Greninja + Sap Sipper Azumarill and Dugtrio+Excadrill. It easily pressured the defensive walls to not play safely which is what they are suppose to be used for and made the offensive Greninja's task very difficult in trying to take down Tapu Bulu by locking itself into Gunk Shot giving Klefki a free switchin, and then giving Tapu Koko leeway to clean throughout the game.

Anyways, what are all of your thoughts on this Tapu Bulu set, best ways to run it, and how it will affect the metagame (especially with the type of teams that are popular right now)? What do you all think about this set especially with all the fat teams running around!
I like the set, in particular I think it is a nice option vs water if you are not grass knot koko. Seems like the fairy water matchup has now turned into the water player waiting for his chance to set toxic spikes and then letting the poison do the work. Besides this matchup are there any others that it happens to outshine the typical choiced sets (ghost, fighting, and poison look like they would hate this bulu)?
 
I like the set, in particular I think it is a nice option vs water if you are not grass knot koko. Seems like the fairy water matchup has now turned into the water player waiting for his chance to set toxic spikes and then letting the poison do the work. Besides this matchup are there any others that it happens to outshine the typical choiced sets (ghost, fighting, and poison look like they would hate this bulu)?
Ground's Dugtrio main use was stopping Tapu Bulu from sweeping you by Arena Trapping it with Sludge Wave (and Sash). Since the set runs Horn Leech, Dugtrio will never be able to kill you if you're behind the sub. If the set gets common, I wonder if people would still use it, since no one will be using this: 252+ SpA Dugtrio Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Bulu: 264-312 (93.9 - 111%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Grassy Terrain recovery because the Pokémon would get very one dimensional and still has to deal with a sub.

Rain Swampert ran Sludge Wave and had pretty huge pressure on your team in case it predicted a switch. If people even still used it, it'd get useless if this set gets common. Then again, bad and underplayed archetype is bad and underplayed, so it doesn't change the meta.

Normal is pretty dope too. Ditto can't transform if it's behind a sub. It can't be hit by toxic from Porygon2/Chansey. It can sub on Staraptor and chip it once if it really wants to.

The list goes on.

You'll get the general idea. It can force many things out faking band/scarf sets and subsequently set up a substitute. Due to grassy terrain it will heal most of sub damage back in the guaranteed two turns if the opponent switches.

It also can't immediately be checked by scarfed mons, meaning many balance teams are forced a sack onto it. Subs are generally a good way to deal with balance teams, especially if they can't be broken by scald.
 
The last post was fun to make, but now I'm ready to talk about Ghost, specifically 2 trapping Pokemon that can provide great defensive utility for the type: Cofagrigus and Dusclops.


I originally got this idea from Garry2Scary and juleocesar, and after testing these 2 interchangeably, I think they both can be very valuable assets on Ghost teams, depending on what matchups you want to improve. Here are the sets for reference:

Cofagrigus @ Leftovers
Ability: Mummy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Block
- Curse
- Will-O-Wisp

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Will-O-Wisp
- Mean Look
- Rest


Starting with Cofagrigus, it should already be a rather familiar Pokemon on Ghost teams, being a Trick Room setter that can also set up Toxic Spikes to improve the Normal and Fairy matchups. However, the trapping set is able to quickly wear down various walls with its combination of Curse and Will-O-Wisp. Additionally, it's able to switch into, trap, and beat Mega Lopunny, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Altaria thanks to Mummy. It's especially helpful in the event of the Normal matchup, since Cofagrigus is also capable of trapping and getting rid of most of its other teammates, such as Chansey, Trace Porygon2, and Diggersby. Mummy is also helpful in the Dark matchup, being able to get rid of Alolan Muk's Gluttony and making sure its berry can't activate from half health if you're unable to knock it off. However, not having Pressure means that it's unable to win the stall game against Pokemon that it can't set up Curse against, since finding Curse opportunities can already be a struggle if the opposing wall isn't completely passive.

Here are some replays where Cofagrigus shines:
Vs Bug: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-796727266
In this replay, Mimikyu's Disguise is forced to be used up early on as a means of getting rid of the Volcarona, leaving the team extremely vulnerable to Mega Pinsir after a Swords Dance. I'm able to Block it on the turn it decides to attack, leaving it unable to touch Cofagrigus and unable to switch out, which at that point decided the game, because Cofagrigus could handily deal with the remaining Scizor and Heracross.

Vs Dragon: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-798884772
In this game Cofagrigus is able to render Mega Altaria completely useless once its Pixilate has been taken away, giving Gengar and Mimikyu an easier endgame.

Vs Ice: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-798894957
Cofagrigus is able to trap and get rid of Alolan Sandslash, which was especially helpful for both Mimikyu and Mega Sableye, who feared potential flinches. Due to Gengar's Focus Blast miss, it was also able to effectively wear down and 1v1 the Mamoswine in the late-game.

Vs Normal: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-799023646
This game was a bit more annoying to play around, considering Heal Bell Chansey would make Diggersby more dangerous. Because of how annoying Chansey is, Cofagrigus is able to handily trap and get rid of it, at the cost of giving it the Stealth Rock, which wasn't a big deal anyway. Additionally, it forces out Mega Lopunny just by switching into it, and is able to get rid of Porygon2, which had already been Toxiced by Jellicent. Once Mega Lopunny is trapped and removed, the game was over, since none of the remaining Pokemon could beat Cofagrigus+Mega Sableye.

Vs Water: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-799036613
While I didn't get the chance to trap Toxapex in this game, Cofagrigus still performed the valuable role of wearing down the Sharpedo with Curse, removing one of the biggest threats to any Ghost team. Even though I did end up losing to a crit on my Mega Sableye, Cofagrigus did perform an important role in this game.


Now for Dusclops. Dusclops is generally more consistent when dealing with defensive threats compared to Cofagrigus. It has overall better bulk with its Eviolite, and can do good damage with Seismic Toss without the need to cut its HP in half. This generally makes it the better option when attempting to trap and beat Mega Venusaur, Mantine, and Celesteela, all of which have the offensive presences to stop Cofagrigus if it ever goes for Curse. However, what it fails to do compared to Cofagrigus is reliably beat Mega Lopunny, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Altaria, since Dusclops can't take their abilities away from them. It also suffers from less bulk if its Eviolite ever ends up getting Knocked Off.

Here are some replays featuring Dusclops:
Vs Dragon: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-797387517
Dusclops' main point of significance in this game is the fact that it was able to switch into and force out Kyurem-Black multiple times, allowing Mimikyu to be a much bigger threat.

Vs Grass: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-798334545
With Dusclops trapping Mega Venusaur, the remaining 3 Pokemon were unable to break past Mega Sableye+Gengar.

Vs Normal: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-799021105
In this game Dusclops is able to switch into and burn the Mega Lopunny, effectively neutralizing it for the rest of the team to handle more effectively. After Diggersby goes down to the Z-move from Mimikyu, the defensive core+the burned Mega Lopunny are unable to break past Taunt Jellicent.

Vs Poison: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-799046564
After Dusclops traps and removes the Toxapex, not only is the threat of Toxic Spikes gone, but the remaining Pokemon got heavily pressured by Alolan Marowak, as well as Jellicent being able to switch into Nihilego and Nidoking.


Overall, both of these trappers provide great utility in matchups against opposing balance types which would otherwise be difficult for Ghost, such as Normal and Poison. I'd like to hear what other people have to say about these two.
 
The last post was fun to make, but now I'm ready to talk about Ghost, specifically 2 trapping Pokemon that can provide great defensive utility for the type: Cofagrigus and Dusclops.


I originally got this idea from Garry2Scary and juleocesar, and after testing these 2 interchangeably, I think they both can be very valuable assets on Ghost teams, depending on what matchups you want to improve. Here are the sets for reference:

Cofagrigus @ Leftovers
Ability: Mummy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Block
- Curse
- Will-O-Wisp

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Will-O-Wisp
- Mean Look
- Rest


Starting with Cofagrigus, it should already be a rather familiar Pokemon on Ghost teams, being a Trick Room setter that can also set up Toxic Spikes to improve the Normal and Fairy matchups. However, the trapping set is able to quickly wear down various walls with its combination of Curse and Will-O-Wisp. Additionally, it's able to switch into, trap, and beat Mega Lopunny, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Altaria thanks to Mummy. It's especially helpful in the event of the Normal matchup, since Cofagrigus is also capable of trapping and getting rid of most of its other teammates, such as Chansey, Trace Porygon2, and Diggersby. Mummy is also helpful in the Dark matchup, being able to get rid of Alolan Muk's Gluttony and making sure its berry can't activate from half health if you're unable to knock it off. However, not having Pressure means that it's unable to win the stall game against Pokemon that it can't set up Curse against, since finding Curse opportunities can already be a struggle if the opposing wall isn't completely passive.

Here are some replays where Cofagrigus shines:
Vs Bug: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-796727266
In this replay, Mimikyu's Disguise is forced to be used up early on as a means of getting rid of the Volcarona, leaving the team extremely vulnerable to Mega Pinsir after a Swords Dance. I'm able to Block it on the turn it decides to attack, leaving it unable to touch Cofagrigus and unable to switch out, which at that point decided the game, because Cofagrigus could handily deal with the remaining Scizor and Heracross.

Vs Dragon: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-798884772
In this game Cofagrigus is able to render Mega Altaria completely useless once its Pixilate has been taken away, giving Gengar and Mimikyu an easier endgame.

Vs Ice: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-798894957
Cofagrigus is able to trap and get rid of Alolan Sandslash, which was especially helpful for both Mimikyu and Mega Sableye, who feared potential flinches. Due to Gengar's Focus Blast miss, it was also able to effectively wear down and 1v1 the Mamoswine in the late-game.

Vs Normal: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-799023646
This game was a bit more annoying to play around, considering Heal Bell Chansey would make Diggersby more dangerous. Because of how annoying Chansey is, Cofagrigus is able to handily trap and get rid of it, at the cost of giving it the Stealth Rock, which wasn't a big deal anyway. Additionally, it forces out Mega Lopunny just by switching into it, and is able to get rid of Porygon2, which had already been Toxiced by Jellicent. Once Mega Lopunny is trapped and removed, the game was over, since none of the remaining Pokemon could beat Cofagrigus+Mega Sableye.

Vs Water: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-799036613
While I didn't get the chance to trap Toxapex in this game, Cofagrigus still performed the valuable role of wearing down the Sharpedo with Curse, removing one of the biggest threats to any Ghost team. Even though I did end up losing to a crit on my Mega Sableye, Cofagrigus did perform an important role in this game.


Now for Dusclops. Dusclops is generally more consistent when dealing with defensive threats compared to Cofagrigus. It has overall better bulk with its Eviolite, and can do good damage with Seismic Toss without the need to cut its HP in half. This generally makes it the better option when attempting to trap and beat Mega Venusaur, Mantine, and Celesteela, all of which have the offensive presences to stop Cofagrigus if it ever goes for Curse. However, what it fails to do compared to Cofagrigus is reliably beat Mega Lopunny, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Altaria, since Dusclops can't take their abilities away from them. It also suffers from less bulk if its Eviolite ever ends up getting Knocked Off.

Here are some replays featuring Dusclops:
Vs Dragon: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-797387517
Dusclops' main point of significance in this game is the fact that it was able to switch into and force out Kyurem-Black multiple times, allowing Mimikyu to be a much bigger threat.

Vs Grass: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-798334545
With Dusclops trapping Mega Venusaur, the remaining 3 Pokemon were unable to break past Mega Sableye+Gengar.

Vs Normal: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-799021105
In this game Dusclops is able to switch into and burn the Mega Lopunny, effectively neutralizing it for the rest of the team to handle more effectively. After Diggersby goes down to the Z-move from Mimikyu, the defensive core+the burned Mega Lopunny are unable to break past Taunt Jellicent.

Vs Poison: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-799046564
After Dusclops traps and removes the Toxapex, not only is the threat of Toxic Spikes gone, but the remaining Pokemon got heavily pressured by Alolan Marowak, as well as Jellicent being able to switch into Nihilego and Nidoking.


Overall, both of these trappers provide great utility in matchups against opposing balance types which would otherwise be difficult for Ghost, such as Normal and Poison. I'd like to hear what other people have to say about these two.
Yeah I’m suprised just how good Dusclops can be, trapping is definitley one of the most powerful features in competitive Pokemon and being able to PP Stall a passive wall per game while still blanket checking physical attackers in one slot is really nice. I think this could honestly be ranked on the VR.

Here’s a replay of Dusclops both PP stalling Chansey and burning Mega Lopunny in the same game, much to the dismay of my opponent: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-799216542

(PP stalling ends turn 63)
 
Can we remove swagger clause? It looks really silly in comparison to the other bans we have. Confusing a target with a 30% chance to make it hit itself in exchange for giving them a +2 attack boost is terrible odds. Smooth and damp rock make sense, the mons that currently are banned make sense, this move does not make sense. Prankster mons would have to give up far better sets to run this which doesn't even work on dark mons this generation. I think this would make our tier banlist look nicer and be less confusing as a whole.
 

Wanka

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UUPL Champion
Can we remove swagger clause? It looks really silly in comparison to the other bans we have. Confusing a target with a 30% chance to make it hit itself in exchange for giving them a +2 attack boost is terrible odds. Smooth and damp rock make sense, the mons that currently are banned make sense, this move does not make sense. Prankster mons would have to give up far better sets to run this which doesn't even work on dark mons this generation. I think this would make our tier banlist look nicer and be less confusing as a whole.
This is a fair thought. Unfortunately we don’t really have any reason to council vote swagger, which would force us to find unconventional methods of voting or actually suspect it. Voting wise, we would have pick a larger list of voters and not only would that cause controversy itself, it would be us making an unnecessary exception for swagger of all things. This type of decision could only lead to more controversy down the road. Suspecting swagger is also not in our best interest as I would hope we can agree that something like swagger doesn’t warrant a suspect.

Pls keep in mind that this is also swagger, and while statistically it is weaker now, it does not make it any less uncompetitive. That alone doesn’t give it that great of an appeal as something we would be adding to our metagame. I hope I was clear in this, there isn’t really much we can do that wouldn’t cause problems.
 
This is a fair thought. Unfortunately we don’t really have any reason to council vote swagger, which would force us to find unconventional methods of voting or actually suspect it. Voting wise, we would have pick a larger list of voters and not only would that cause controversy itself, it would be us making an unnecessary exception for swagger of all things. This type of decision could only lead to more controversy down the road. Suspecting swagger is also not in our best interest as I would hope we can agree that something like swagger doesn’t warrant a suspect.

Pls keep in mind that this is also swagger, and while statistically it is weaker now, it does not make it any less uncompetitive. That alone doesn’t give it that great of an appeal as something we would be adding to our metagame. I hope I was clear in this, there isn’t really much we can do that wouldn’t cause problems.
I'm not sure how OU, UU, RU, NU, and PU had it removed but I didn't think it was that big of a deal. It is just odd to look at, all the other official formats do not have swagger banned except for us. It is uncompetitive, but in a way that is rather minor. Strategies mentioned in aldaron's post for uncompetitiveness are way scarier and reduce skillful play, swagger in this generation is a far cry from those. If I were asking to ban swagger and it wasn't banned, I feel like you would tell me it isn't worth it and it isn't used or something. But since it has been grandfathered in, you won't remove it. There should be an easier way to remove grandfathered clauses that have been weakened to the point of being terrible strategies in later generations.
 
I'm not sure how OU, UU, RU, NU, and PU had it removed but I didn't think it was that big of a deal. It is just odd to look at, all the other official formats do not have swagger banned except for us. It is uncompetitive, but in a way that is rather minor. Strategies mentioned in aldaron's post for uncompetitiveness are way scarier and reduce skillful play, swagger in this generation is a far cry from those. If I were asking to ban swagger and it wasn't banned, I feel like you would tell me it isn't worth it and it isn't used or something. But since it has been grandfathered in, you won't remove it. There should be an easier way to remove grandfathered clauses that have been weakened to the point of being terrible strategies in later generations.

even if its a problem to remove it from the list, we're the only one who has it banned and its for a reason that no longer exists,swagger + foul play with a twave was very unfun to play and rng based, but with the nerf to twave AND confusion i dont believe that swagger should be banned, as nomadder said if it was allowed i highly doubt that it would be banned so why should it remain banned just because it was before?
i think balancing the game and allowing all things that are allowed to be playable should be a priority, and the fact that noone else has it banned and it isnt very abusable, i think realistically this shouldnt continue to be banned and ids why a vote or something would be unreasonable
 
It's not really just official tiers, we're the only tier on the entire website with the clause still in place. I feel like the only reason it's still in place today is because someone forgot to ask for it to be removed. It's uncompetitive, sure, but so are moves like Confuse Ray, Attract, or Flatter. It's not as abusable this generation compared to last. Monotype is its own tier but there are still some comparisons to be made to put things like this into better perspective. Such as SwagPlay Klefki's use in UU or OU. Little to no usage at all even though it's available. Even though I personally feel like this doesn't necessarily have to be a decision to be made by a suspect test or a council vote, I can understand needing a majority rule agreement regarding the tier as a whole. Still, I don't think it would be harmful to have the clause lifted in Monotype.
 

Wanka

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UUPL Champion
I'm not sure how OU, UU, RU, NU, and PU had it removed but I didn't think it was that big of a deal. It is just odd to look at, all the other official formats do not have swagger banned except for us. It is uncompetitive, but in a way that is rather minor. Strategies mentioned in aldaron's post for uncompetitiveness are way scarier and reduce skillful play, swagger in this generation is a far cry from those. If I were asking to ban swagger and it wasn't banned, I feel like you would tell me it isn't worth it and it isn't used or something. But since it has been grandfathered in, you won't remove it. There should be an easier way to remove grandfathered clauses that have been weakened to the point of being terrible strategies in later generations.
To start, regardless of how trivial swagger has become, it still defines as uncompetitive and We wouldn’t feel comfortable with having an uncompetitive aspect in our metagame, exposed to new players whether it’s viable or not aside. Now, to touch on the idea that we should be able to do something about a grandfathered clause. If it were the start of a new generation, yes we probably could. Unfortunately we aren’t in that sort of position and council votes have a precedent to them that call for action when the impact to a metagame is to a higher degree. If we were to throw out a council vote for something like this, our precedent would be abided and we would be crossing our own boundaries. We aren’t keeping it banned because we care for a beloved grandfather cause or because we think it won’t get used. We’re keeping it banned as right now there is nothing that we could do that wouldn’t cross our own boundaries or disrupt the community. We also feel that while swaggers effectiveness would be substantially little, we still felt that having an ineffective, but still uncompetitive aspect in our metagame would not be positive for the progression of our player base. Please, please, understand that we don’t take these things as lightly as you think seeing as what you felt like I would’ve told you couldn’t be further from the truth. We took this topic, put legitimate discussion into it, and decided the best angles to look at it from and take.

E: also not saying this isn’t something we can’t revisit, just need to pick our spots
 
To start, regardless of how trivial swagger has become, it still defines as uncompetitive and We wouldn’t feel comfortable with having an uncompetitive aspect in our metagame, exposed to new players whether it’s viable or not aside. Now, to touch on the idea that we should be able to do something about a grandfathered clause. If it were the start of a new generation, yes we probably could. Unfortunately we aren’t in that sort of position and council votes have a precedent to them that call for action when the impact to a metagame is to a higher degree. If we were to throw out a council vote for something like this, our precedent would be abided and we would be crossing our own boundaries. We aren’t keeping it banned because we care for a beloved grandfather cause or because we think it won’t get used. We’re keeping it banned as right now there is nothing that we could do that wouldn’t cross our own boundaries or disrupt the community. We also feel that while swaggers effectiveness would be substantially little, we still felt that having an ineffective, but still uncompetitive aspect in our metagame would not be positive for the progression of our player base. Please, please, understand that we don’t take these things as lightly as you think seeing as what you felt like I would’ve told you couldn’t be further from the truth. We took this topic, put legitimate discussion into it, and decided the best angles to look at it from and take.

E: also not saying this isn’t something we can’t revisit, just need to pick our spots
I put words in your mouth (fair or not) because you, or you speaking for the rest of the council, didn't make a stance on the topic in your initial post. It was primarily mentioned that it is uncompetitive and it goes against some kind of precedent. I said that there is a argument against its competitiveness and now you say it can't be done because it should've been done a while ago or we should wait till the next generation.

If you're saying that as the leaders of the monotype community, we feel that any perceived uncompetitiveness is disallowed, fine. I like that because it is a flat stance. We don't allow type bans because it is confusing to new players and all the types are never going to be equally viable. True or not that is a stance.

HOWEVER, if we aren't getting rid of it PRIMARILY because it has somehow disrupted the monotype community orbit of only doing things at the beginning of generations, I'm saying that is a weak reason. This is a special case. If there are scenarios you can think of where this is going to happen all the time and doing this will bite you in the butt, I agree you shouldn't do it.

You are adamant about not doing it, so it leads me to believe I am missing something. I don't think you haven't honored my request and talked about it among yourselves and I appreciate your responses regarding pokemon of all things. I am saying as it stands, I perceive the reason for not doing it as very weak. Examples of some chaos that would be caused by implementation of this change would help me understand and I would back down.
 

Wanka

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UUPL Champion
I put words in your mouth (fair or not) because you, or you speaking for the rest of the council, didn't make a stance on the topic in your initial post. It was primarily mentioned that it is uncompetitive and it goes against some kind of precedent. I said that there is a argument against its competitiveness and now you say it can't be done because it should've been done a while ago or we should wait till the next generation.

If you're saying that as the leaders of the monotype community, we feel that any perceived uncompetitiveness is disallowed, fine. I like that because it is a flat stance. We don't allow type bans because it is confusing to new players and all the types are never going to be equally viable. True or not that is a stance.

HOWEVER, if we aren't getting rid of it PRIMARILY because it has somehow disrupted the monotype community orbit of only doing things at the beginning of generations, I'm saying that is a weak reason. This is a special case. If there are scenarios you can think of where this is going to happen all the time and doing this will bite you in the butt, I agree you shouldn't do it.

You are adamant about not doing it, so it leads me to believe I am missing something. I don't think you haven't honored my request and talked about it among yourselves and I appreciate your responses regarding pokemon of all things. I am saying as it stands, I perceive the reason for not doing it as very weak. Examples of some chaos that would be caused by implementation of this change would help me understand and I would back down.
On my end yes I should have been more detailed in my initial post, I went for a short and consise response because I didn’t want to over complicate, but that was myb I couldve just laid it out.

Also something I thought I was more clear about. It’s not the implementation itself that is going to cause chaos and disrupt, it’s the means by which we would need to go about doing so that would disrupt the community since we can’t cross our boundaries with a council vote (explained why it crosses our boundaries above). The only method we could go about making an implementation like this without being at the start of a generation is via a suspect test. Right now the community is in the middle of one of the biggest competitions of the year while competition is at an all time high. We aren’t particularly interested in having a suspect for something that we feel could be solved with significantly less drawback at a different time. You can think about the distractions that suspecting swagger would cause during a major team tournament for us. We want to keep the focus on competing right now as these time periods are short lived and happen annually. And You can say we haven’t honored your proposition, and while I can sit here and say we have and you can say you don’t believe me is just he said she said. What I can tell you is that I wouldn’t be taking the time out of my day to be having a fair discussion with you over what myself and other council members have discussed today after seeing your post. If it gives you any closure I’m willing to let you know that this is something we feel we will revisit in the future. We know there is an argument there, if there wasn’t an argument there then the rest of smogon would still have it banned. Just understand that we aren’t in an ideal spot to do something like that and a forced decision, which is what it would have to be, is still forced and will cause unwanted disrupt solely by means of implementation regardless of whether or not the implementation itself is deemed viable or not. I look forward to this being revisited because I think we could get something done here, but for now I hope you at least see where we are coming from a little bit even if you don’t agree (which is fine btw) because you have a case, it’s just not appealing for the sake of the community right now.
 
On my end yes I should have been more detailed in my initial post, I went for a short and consise response because I didn’t want to over complicate, but that was myb I couldve just laid it out.

Also something I thought I was more clear about. It’s not the implementation itself that is going to cause chaos and disrupt, it’s the means by which we would need to go about doing so that would disrupt the community since we can’t cross our boundaries with a council vote (explained why it crosses our boundaries above). The only method we could go about making an implementation like this without being at the start of a generation is via a suspect test. Right now the community is in the middle of one of the biggest competitions of the year while competition is at an all time high. We aren’t particularly interested in having a suspect for something that we feel could be solved with significantly less drawback at a different time. You can think about the distractions that suspecting swagger would cause during a major team tournament for us. We want to keep the focus on competing right now as these time periods are short lived and happen annually. And You can say we haven’t honored your proposition, and while I can sit here and say we have and you can say you don’t believe me is just he said she said. What I can tell you is that I wouldn’t be taking the time out of my day to be having a fair discussion with you over what myself and other council members have discussed today after seeing your post. If it gives you any closure I’m willing to let you know that this is something we feel we will revisit in the future. We know there is an argument there, if there wasn’t an argument there then the rest of smogon would still have it banned. Just understand that we aren’t in an ideal spot to do something like that and a forced decision, which is what it would have to be, is still forced and will cause unwanted disrupt solely by means of implementation regardless of whether or not the implementation itself is deemed viable or not. I look forward to this being revisited because I think we could get something done here, but for now I hope you at least see where we are coming from a little bit even if you don’t agree (which is fine btw) because you have a case, it’s just not appealing for the sake of the community right now.
You don't have to give a long response to this if you don't want to but from my understanding of what you're saying is:

You have to have a suspect if you guys wanted to make a decision about this, not just talk among yourselves and just ask for it to be removed. I'm not sure if you're required to have suspect tests after X amount of time after the start of the generation or if the council just prefers suspects at this point in time of the generation. If it's the latter, that's fine and understandable. I also understand that a suspect during MWP would be disruptive but if the council isn't required to suspect Swagger Clause, then what would be disruptive about just getting it removed and announcing it then back to focusing on MWP? I feel like a suspect test for Swagger would be a tad bit unnecessary but, like you said, I may not be seeing the decision as seriously as the council may see it.

I hope you see where I'm getting at from an outsider's perspective.
 

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