USUM NU Teambuilding Competition (Round 5: Zangoose - Voting Stage)

#78
im just confused why people are using toxic orb zangoose
Well I guess I'll explain this again, I personally heavily dislike Belly Drum sets, especially when your as frail as Zangoose, specifically because 1. It's Encore and Taunt Bait from Whims and Liepard. 2. It's a must to carry Memento or Parting Shot to actual give it a chance to set up cuz once again Zangoose is frail. 3. It's easy to just put it down with priority even at 75%. I prefer Toxic Orb Zangoose since it doesnt have these issues as bad. I will admit that Belly Drum is a better set than Toxic Orb. Toxic Orb kills itself and doesnt do good enough damage. I will say this again: Belly Drum is a better set, but it's a lot more risky. It is personal experience and preference that makes me use Toxic Orb Facade. Sorry if this turned out to be an essay.
 
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Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
#79
Well I guess I'll explain this again, I personally heavily dislike Belly Drum sets, especially when your as frail as Zangoose, specifically because 1. It's Encore and Taunt Bait from Whims and Liepard. 2. It's a must to carry Memento or Parting Shot to actual give it a chance to set up cuz once again Zangoose is frail. 3. It's easy to just put it down with priority even at 75%. I prefer Toxic Orb Zangoose since it doesnt have these issues as bad. I will admit that Belly Drum is a better set than Toxic Orb. Toxic Orb kills itself and doesnt do good enough damage. I will say this again: Belly Drum is a better set, but it's a lot more risky. It is personal experience and preference that makes me use Toxic Orb Facade. Sorry if this turned out to be an essay.
Well, Whismicott is often not running Encore, especially when there are way better answers to Zangoose that you could run. Also, Liepard isn't run that much, usually it's used as a Rain setter if it's used at all. Most Ghosts check it well, although Mismagius is required to run a z-move different from Never-Ending Nightmare. Zangoose being frail isn't really an issue if you give it Parting Shot or Memento support, as well as if you put potential checks in Quick Attack range. Oftentimes, you won't even die from priority, even Mach Punch from Choice Scarf Hitmonlee. So, I can't really agree with the points you make in your argument. Zangoose will fail if you don't give it the right support, but if you do, the flaws you list above, and even some of the ones I list, won't really be a problem.
 
#80
Well, Whismicott is often not running Encore, especially when there are way better answers to Zangoose that you could run. Also, Liepard isn't run that much, usually it's used as a Rain setter if it's used at all. Most Ghosts check it well, although Mismagius is required to run a z-move different from Never-Ending Nightmare. Zangoose being frail isn't really an issue if you give it Parting Shot or Memento support, as well as if you put potential checks in Quick Attack range. Oftentimes, you won't even die from priority, even Mach Punch from Choice Scarf Hitmonlee. So, I can't really agree with the points you make in your argument. Zangoose will fail if you don't give it the right support, but if you do, the flaws you list above, and even some of the ones I list, won't really be a problem.
Ok I don't want to argue in the middle of the voting phase so I'm just gonna stop after this.
Whimsicott runs Encore pretty darn often and if it doesn't I must be really lucky finding them.
I didn't want to portray that Liepard was a relevant counter to BD Zangoose, I wanted to say that Liepard can be used to lock Zangoose into BD if the situation calls for it. I know Liepard can only find a use on weather teams, but I'm still noting it as a threat to BD Zangoose.
Yah no in a situation with Scarf Jolly Hitmonlee vs Zangoose with no hazards and Zangoose already Belly Drum'd (aka its at 75%)
252 Atk Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zangoose: 188-224 (65.5 - 78%)
Yes this is a small KO chance. But we all know Black Belt and Life Orb Hitmonlee is also an often thing to run, and if that Scarf Hitmonlee had Adamant instead of Jolly for whatever reason that Zangoose is most likely gone. I'm not saying Toxic Orb won't get shut down by priority, but it isn't shut down as bad.
252+ Atk Black Belt Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zangoose: 248-294 (86.4 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Even with poison damage Zangoose can survive this situation.
Don't take my previous comments as a way to devalue Belly Drum. Belly Drum is a lot more effective set. I just find BD to be too much of a high risk high reward option
 
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#81
Ok I don't want to argue in the middle of the voting phase so I'm just gonna stop after this.
Whimsicott runs Encore pretty darn often and if it doesn't I must be really lucky finding them.
I didn't want to portray that Liepard was a relevant counter to BD Zangoose, I wanted to say that Liepard can be used to lock Zangoose into BD if the situation calls for it. I know Liepard can only find a use on weather teams, but I'm still noting it as a threat to BD Zangoose.
Yah no in a situation with Scarf Jolly Hitmonlee vs Zangoose with no hazards and Zangoose already Belly Drum'd (aka its at 75%)
252 Atk Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zangoose: 188-224 (65.5 - 78%)
Yes this is a small KO chance. But we all know Black Belt and Life Orb Hitmonlee is also an often thing to run, and if that Scarf Hitmonlee had Adamant instead of Jolly for whatever reason that Zangoose is most likely gone. I'm not saying Toxic Orb won't get shut down by priority, but it isn't shut down as bad.
252+ Atk Black Belt Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zangoose: 248-294 (86.4 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Even with poison damage Zangoose can survive this situation.
Don't take my previous comments as a way to devalue Belly Drum. Belly Drum is a lot more effective set. I just find BD to be too much of a high risk high reward option
This is the kind of discussion we're looking for in this thread - feel free to continue, this is open to everybody!

First of all, you can't list an irrelevant Pokemon as a threat to Zangoose. Yeah Golduck is a threat to Primal Groudon in Ubers but it doesn't make it relevant or noteworthy at all, nor diminish Primal Groudon's prowess.

Second, Hitmonlee doesn't run adamant EVER, and as far as I know it doesn't run black belt. Even if it did, its not relevant since Zangoose outspeeds it and KOs it with Quick Attack, making your second calc completely irrelevant. The problem with toxic orb is that it doesn't get the chance to set up and sweep because of the toxic damage hitting it so fast. Thats what makes it so dangerous - the most common forms of the rare priority in NU really don't affect Zangoose. Especially with the power drop it needs multiple facades to KO bulky pokemon unlike Belly Drum - while its not getting continually worn down like Toxic Orb.

Toxic Orb Zangoose has been a thing before USUM, and it was almost never used because of these above problems.
 
#82
This is the kind of discussion we're looking for in this thread - feel free to continue, this is open to everybody!

First of all, you can't list an irrelevant Pokemon as a threat to Zangoose. Yeah Golduck is a threat to Primal Groudon in Ubers but it doesn't make it relevant or noteworthy at all, nor diminish Primal Groudon's prowess.

Second, Hitmonlee doesn't run adamant EVER, and as far as I know it doesn't run black belt. Even if it did, its not relevant since Zangoose outspeeds it and KOs it with Quick Attack, making your second calc completely irrelevant. The problem with toxic orb is that it doesn't get the chance to set up and sweep because of the toxic damage hitting it so fast. Thats what makes it so dangerous - the most common forms of the rare priority in NU really don't affect Zangoose. Especially with the power drop it needs multiple facades to KO bulky pokemon unlike Belly Drum - while its not getting continually worn down like Toxic Orb.

Toxic Orb Zangoose has been a thing before USUM, and it was almost never used because of these above problems.
haha my entire argument is ridiculous I forgot Zangoose outspeeds non Scarf Hitmonlee. I'm an idiot. I'm gonna raise the white flag and accept my defeat in the argument. I need to stop making dumb arguments
 

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
#87
I unfortunately can’t participate in hosting this thread anymore due to technical problems, so this one is on Durza. I’d like to continue doing this, but I cannot.
 

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