Lower Tiers USUM NU Viability Rankings - v2

Snou

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Ok, in the last month things have changed quite a bit, and I feel like these VR might need a serious update due to how the metagame has shifted.
The first Pokémon I'd like to focus on is Vileplume.



Vileplume is actually one of those mons that fulfills so many roles and utilities in a single slot. Its good typing allows it to check a good amount of pokémon in the tier and with Vanilluxe gone it can now shine even more. It's one of the few mons in the tier that can safely switchin on every Heliolisk set, punishing the Passimian-Heliolisk volturn core. It offers an amazing utility with both its ability Effect Spore and Sleep Powder. It can turn into a good fat offensive mon with its access to Growth (even Z Growth) and even without it, its offensive stats are far from let anyone setup on it. Vileplume checks Comfey, which is another mon that many builds struggle with, but still provides defensive support against bulky waters, even dealing with the omnipresent Slowbros. It kinda checks alolan Exeggutor, humiliates Sceptile and any other Grass type (bar setupping Decidueyes and band Dhelmises). Its access to Moonblast allows scrafty-weak teams to have their answer, and with Strenght Sap, even pivoting Incineroars are not more than another mon to check. Its poisonium z set allows it to istantly nuke some annoying stuff, such as Xatus or even offensive incineroars.
Given those points, I'd move it at least to an A+ rank.



It's not a secret that Sceptile has been struggling recently. With both Vileplume, Weezing, Golbat but even Garbodor being everywhere, Sceptile's ability to break the most common cores of the tier is now nothing more than an old memory. With its grass-fighting-ice coverage and its access to a boosting move, Sceptile used to work as both a good breaker (sometimes even 6-0ing teams) and an amazing cleaner. Now that things have changed, Sceptile finds itself surrounded by poison types. It's still a good pick, ofc, but it needs more support, and this leads me the conclusion that it has to drop to an A- Rank.



Xatu has always been one of those mons that should be included in a A+ Ban list, because I felt like it's better than its A+ mates, but I was never totally sure it deserved and S rank. But in this new phase of the metagame, Xatu has proven to be one of the most prominent pokémon in the tier, and influenced the way people build their teams, sometimes even relying on Z moves in order to get rid of it (Electrium Weezing, Waterium Seismi, Rockium Torterra, Poisonium Garbodor). Now that Vanilluxe isn't in the tier anymore, Xatu is one of the most reliable ways to get rid of hazards and keep them away from the field. Not even Sneasel is stopping it from being this good, especially because Sneasel has surely seen better days. Its abilities to spam Toxic on every possible switchin, scout choiced moves with protect, checking Passimian, punish volturners with Rocky Helmet and deal some solid damage with Night Shade, are imo more than enough to fly it to the S Rank.
 
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banks

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-> a-

Increased usage of Weezing, Blastoise, lack of berry Incineroars, and spike-stack in general (for when using sigi vs opposing teams as well as being immune to hazard stacking) all improve Sigilyph's state in the tier. Air Slash / Heat Wave / Energy Ball is ridiculous to switch into for pretty much every team, plus roost to keep it healthy enough to switch into stuff, or emergency defog / dazzling gleam. Wish Vaporeon is also a very 'easy to fit' teammate that bounces off Sigilyph's weaknesses and greatly assists Sigilyph's ability to switch into mons, as when it switches in vs the likes of Vileplume and gets back to full health it more often than not always gets a kill or heavily dents the opposing team. Here is a good example of teams exploited by Sigilyph.

-> b+ / a-

Choice Specs and Spikes Recover Z-Move sets are both very strong in this meta rn. Its ability to outpace the undisputed best scarfer is extremely valuable, and similarly to Sigilyph, its coverage is very hard to switch into, usually teams being reliant with poisons to the point where Accelgor chips them enough that they're no longer or checks, or, it allows mons like Passimian to flourish. Game showing Accelgor cleaning late game. Sheer lack of bug resists also do Accelgor many favours, and if a something like a Weezing, Garbodor, Vaporeon or Comfey is likely to switch in, it becomes great opportunity for Accelgor to layer up on Spikes.

-> b- / b

This mon is definitely a lot better than whatever was in the C ranks. Being a decently bulky (specially defensive at least) Fighting-type that can setup on Vileplume and Weezing as well as deal massive damage to them is a very distinct and valuable trait rn, especially considering a lot of teams have those two (or garb) as their primary passimian (fighting-type) switch-ins.

Gallade @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Psycho Cut / Zen Headbutt
- Knock Off

This is the set I use, I prefer Knock Off as oppose to Leaf Blade as it can cover Xatu, Slowbro, Delphox and Palossand in one slot. Psycho cut avoids any helmet damage taken from Weezing, Vileplume, or Garbodor as well as Effect Spore, although Zen can be useful to just deal more damage in general. All in all Gallade exploits common and formulaic teams like plume / weezing as Fighting checks and roar / slowking for Psychic checks with its excellent stab coverage.

ur -> c / c+

Eviolite Scyther sets can be pretty effective given the right support. Being deceptively bulky with good resistances to important mons like Passimian, Vileplume, and Accelgor, allowing it to switch in and either setup or U-turn out against the likes of Steelix, Rhydon, and Diancie to bring a breaker that takes advantage of those mons. Although lax never won vs rw in spl, he showed the effectiveness of Scyther's pivoting abilities well. This game also shows Scyther successfully bringing in a threat to the opponent's team, and cleaning late game.

-> b+

Both Dragon Dance and Bulk Up sets are extremely annoying to play almost always, with its checks being very limited to likes of Comfey or Whimsicott after setup, and from full health, Scrafty really doesn't struggle that much to find setup opportunity. More mons being used that it can take advantage of by setting up is also a big plus one to it, namely Decidueye, Blastoise, and with Slowbro teams often having Passimian as their best counterplay (which is handled by chople or just knocking it off in dd sets case), Scrafty is almost always a solid wincon for teams. Vileplume kinda struggles with it as well as zen headbutt is pretty popular, and if not effect spore needs to be very responsive and shed skin very unresponsive. Games showing Scrafty's abilities: Brazilian snake | SPL luring a Vileplume | SPL | me vs quziel.

Agreeing with Vileplume to a+ and Weezing to a-, although I don't think Garbodor needs to drop just because Weezing needs to rise, absorbing Tspikes is an invaluable trait that sets it apart.


-> a-

Okay, this mon really isn't as good people make it out to be. The only real Stealth Rock setter it "beats" is Steelix, and even then, it trades with Curse sets at best, and tect sets just regain helmet damage over time. Druddigon sets rocks regardless vs this mon, Rhydon beats it, Sesimitoad beats it (only set is z-move), Piloswine beats it, Palossand beats it.. the list goes on. But that's beside the point, Xatu does its job at discouraging opponents setting up rocks in fear of them being bounced back. It's just very, very useless vs everything else. It doesn't beat Garbodor, it doesn't beat Weezing, it doesn't beat anything really. It's usually the mon people sack in games, and vs pass, it just u-turns or knock offs, I get it dissuades Close Combat but really there's just better options rn. Especially with the increase of Blastoise, Decid, and Rotom for removal. I would be fine with this going lower but a lot of people still think this mon is very good.

-> c+ / lower

Honestly, this mon is so forgettable and lacklustre. Although usage doesn't equate to viability, this mon has seriously not been used like, at all. Whenever I've attempted to build with it I find myself always thinking Blastoise or any other Water-type really would fit better. It doesn't really check Heliolisk as Specs Hyper Voice still does huge damage + more Grass Knot Heliolisk, doesn't check Swords Dance Incineroar, doesn't check Delphox as CM sets beat it + it just gets Toxiced. The only thing it's useful for is Rotom and Magmortar to a very certain extent, plus with Tspikes and Spikes heavy meta, Gastrodon finds itself in a really bad position.
 
Hey guys, new to the forum but here's my takes on some of these recent discussions as a relatively new NU player this generation.

166260

Passimian to S: Agree
This thing is possibly the most splashable offensive option in the whole tier. It only needs the one set, with a strong STAB option and 2 of the most spammable moves in the game at its disposal. Generally makes almost every team that it's on better. Offers speed, revenge-killing, and decent bulk. Huge threat.

166268

Xatu lower: Agree
I get how Xatu has warped teambuilding because it deters hazards, but I personally can't stand using it. You bounce a couple of times early game with this thing, and then it doesn't have much utility. It can be great to swing momentum at first, but after that it's subpar. Passive, predictable, easily exploitable typing and moveset, and on top of that the tier has really gotten used to gameplanning for it. Magic Bounce this thing down a few pegs, please.

166270

Scrafty to B+: Agree
I've been a huge Scrafty fan since I got to this tier. Decent typing allows for easy setup with either Bulk Up or Dragon Dance. With only a setup move and its two STAB options as absolute requirements for DD, it can tailor its set to muscling past some of its checks with a Z-Move or Chople Berry. Meanwhile, Bulk Up + Shed Skin crushes a lot of bulkier cores that rely on status. Sets up pretty easily too. It's a great win condition with a lot of options and deserves some shine. Also a great Knock Off absorber with a Z-item equipped.

166269

Vileplume to A+: Agree
This thing is a nuisance. I really hate dealing with it. Most of its best answers are weak to Stealth Rock and it's ludicrously easy to slap on a team as a defensive option. It's also customizable beyond its essential moves, with access to Sleep Power, Strength Sap, strong Z-Move sets and Growth. Like it or not Vileplume is changing how teams build right now, particularly hurting Fairy and Grass-type Pokemon while checking Heliolisk decently. I don't think some of the other posters in this thread are wrong to say it could be an S-ranked threat. It's not far off.

166271

Blastoise lower: Disagree
Blastoise is one of only two spinners I'm into using. Good enough bulk to tank most things once, and a solid speed tier that lets it outspeed and punish Incineroar with enough investment. I think its standard set is fine, definitely really passive at times but it offers enough utility through Rapid Spin and status options that more offensively minded teams don't really care that it doesn't hit hard. The big mistake a lot of people (including myself) run into is putting it on defensive teams that already lack speed and pressure. To me, it doesn't work in those builds, and as long as you put a bunch of threats around it it's a great and dependable option.
 
166398

Sorry to double post but I did think of a nomination of my own to add to the rest, which is that Guzzlord should drop to lower in B or to B-.

There's a couple of reasons for this nomination. First is just Guzzlord on paper. It gets good coverage with its STAB moves and multiple coverage options. It's also not that hard to build around, and together with a second attacker can pressure balanced cores by easily switching in to bulky Water-types and firing away. However, its solid offensive typing makes it vulnerable to a lot of dominant NU threats (Passimian, Comfey, Glalie, etc.), and its low speed means that it has a hard time pressuring opposing teams unless you bring it in perfectly.

That on its own isn't the end of the world. There are plenty of slow wallbreakers in this tier that are extremely effective. A lot of them have poor defensive typing as well. But the main thing is that those wallbreakers tend to outperform it. In particular, Guzzlord is completely outclassed by Alolan Exeggutor, another Dragon-type that runs Choice Specs most of the time. The main difference is that its main STAB moves have much less coverage overlap, and both are 130 base power. It puts more pressure on defensive builds because they have to predict whether you'll use Leaf Storm or Draco Meteor. There aren't too many 'mons that can take both. In addition, Guzzlord competes for a spot on teams as a Dark-type. Most respectable teambuilders in NU wouldn't put two Dark-types on the same team; going from just one Pokemon that's weak to Fighting, Bug, and Fairy to two is difficult to build around defensively. In that competition, Guzzlord finishes lower than most of the tier's Dark-type offensive threats. Most teams would grab Incineroar first, and slightly less popular options like Scrafty and Sneasel have better secondary STAB to complement spamming Knock Off.

Overall it's really hard to put this thing on a team and not feel like something else could do its job better. If you do manage to get a team around Guzzlord, it usually underperforms. I like using this big lug but I don't think it's as reliable as fellow B ranked mons like Torterra, Weezing, Vivillon, etc. Deserves a little bit of a bump down in my opinion.
 

poh

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-> lower

Vaporeon being so high on the vr looks weird to me. It's a good mon don't get me wrong but its wish set is still quite passive and spikestack being very popular atm hurts it. Spinners prey on it and it hates tspikes. The meta is slowly evolving to a more offensive one and Vaps fatness/support doesn't seem to fit in atm.
 

shiloh

pls not this
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NU Leader
vr update | march 23rd, 2019

rises
Code:
accelgor b -> b+
diancie a - >a+
scrafty b- ->a-
togedemaru b- -> b
vileplume a- -> a+
weezing b -> a-
drops
Code:
absol b- -> c+
audino-mega b+ -> b
comfey a -> a-
dodrio c -> ur
garbodor a- -> b+
guzzlord b -> b-
probopass c -> ur
sandslash-alola c+ -> c
sceptile a+ -> a
seismitoad a- -> b+
silvally-steel b -> b-
steelix a+ -> a
torterra b -> b-
whimsicott b+ -> b
comments on the rises and drops

accelgor rose as its taken on the role of becoming a more offensive spiker and a great form of speed control as it outpaces scarf pass. with sets like final gambit seeing use as well, it is not as dead-weight vs poison types and can support teammates well via setting up spikes and then taking out a form of removal. diancie rose as its one of the best rockers the tier has at the moment, mainly due to its ability to get up rocks vs xatu as well as soft-check incineroar and scrafty, and is a boon in the stall matchup as well, as it is able to set up rocks on common stall removal like golbat/xatu/articuno. scrafty has been a rising threat in the past few months due to how un-killable bulk up sets can be if teams lack a fairy type. while fairy types were once more prominent, the increase in poisons has made them much harder to use, therefore making scrafty harder to prep for. there has also been a few scraftys using tools like z-zen headbutt in order to bypass would be checks like vileplume/golbat/weezing, overall just contributing to how much of a threat scrafty is in the current meta. togedemaru has risen this time not due to its spdef set, but due to its choice scarf set. in a tier where there are few viable scarfers, togedemaru gives offensive teams a fast revenge killer that can outpace passimian, a fairy type check which is useful for offensive teams that have troubles with comfey, and it keeps up momentum due to u-turn. while not as big of a rise as was nominated, this is mainly due to togedemaru having a lot of ups and downs when it comes to viability in nu, and it usually takes a phase or two before the metagame catches up to it. vileplume and weezing have risen for a lot of the same reasons. poison types are starting to become the face of this meta, and these two are the best at it. vileplume has the deadly combination of effect spore + sludge bomb + strength sap, which makes attacking into it and switching into it a gamble for any physical mon. and with the rise in its spdef set that now outshines the physdef one, its become much harder to kill from the special side as well, making it one of the most threatening offensive and defensive mons in the tier. weezing is similar, with the added benefit of a ground immunity, and more utility options in taunt/wisp/pain split/tspikes. it can also be an offensive threat with sets like z-thunder, overall contributing to its rise in viability.​
absol has seen better days, swords dance sets are not that great at the moment because it finds a tough time setting up, and cant run all the moves it wants to. its shining grace at the moment is the cb set, but it is very hard to fit onto teams and is not enough to keep it in b-. audino hates the influx of poison types, and its hard to fit on a lot of non-bulky builds which just sinks it down further in the meta. similar to audino, comfey just hates the influx of poisons, and checks like delphox and togedemaru which have been picking up in usage a bit as well. while it is still a threatening sweeper, its a lot harder for comfey to do its job in the current metagame. garbodor while not bad by any means is just harder to justify using over weezing or vileplume, which just swaps its spot with weezing. guzzlord is just too slow for this metagame, and special sets have trouble getting past spdef vileplume. the omnipresence of passimian also does not help its case. probopass is just too hard to justify in the current meta as steelix usage is dropping, and at a certain point you would much rather be running xatu/toise as anti-steelix measures and run a more usable mon in the slot you had probopass in. sandslash-alola lost its niche as a vanilluxe switchin, and now really only serves a role as a solid remover vs non-earth power diancie, and a way to pressure vileplume. sceptile similar to audino and comfey just hates all the poison types running around. seismitoad is hard to justify outside of offensive sets, as other ones cannot get by xatu. it also has a hard time getting past vileplume/slowbro/weezing, all of which combined makes it a hard rocker to justify over the other options in the tier. silvally-steel lost a niche as a vanilluxe switch in, though it is still a good pivot and removal option vs diancie/druddigon. steelix has a tough time beating any of the removal in the tier, xatu/blastoise/rotom, and just is an inferior choice compared to other rockers. torterra just is hard to use with vileplume/weezing/xatu all being common, and sd sets relying on other rockers as well. whimsicott see sceptile/comfey/audino.​
also a few comments on mons we left in the same subrank, though they may have moved around a bit within them. blastoise is still a good removal tool vs the physical rockers of the tier, and is a good backup check to incineroar as well. druddigon remains in a as even though it is a solid rocker that is guaranteed to get them up vs xatu, it is just a lot worse once it has done its job compared to other rockers. glalie stayed the same, because while it is a great offensive threat its hard to fit on teams with a stealth rock weakness, and recoil from dedge + any additional chip like helmet. it also can only really find a niche on ho/offensive builds which are not the best at this current stage of the metagame. golbat stayed the same, because while it is a poison type that has been on the rise, a weakness to stealth rock and over-reliance on its item hinder it too much. heliolisk stays in s since it is still a dominating offensive threat that fits on a variety of teams, and can completely change up the tempo of a match depending on how its used. while it is not as omnipresent as it was a few months ago, that only helps its viability as teams forgo running multiple checks for it, making it more effective. passimian stays at the top of a+ for the same reasons as before, while the choice scarf set is the premier scarfer in the metagame, it has a hard time running non-scarf sets, and it becomes a large crutch that is taken advantage of on a large majority of balance builds. xatu stays a+ since it still is a great tool for balanced builds to use as removal just due to the presence it has just by being on a team.​
discussion points
slowbro -> lower in s
exeggutor-alola -> a-
braviary -> b+
delphox -> a-
klinklang -> c
whatever else you notice

let us know if you have any other questions, ill be happy to explain anything on discord/ps or in the thread if needed n_n
 
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Punchshroom

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I've discussed Aurorus's potential as the tier's Vanilluxe replacement before, but the trends as of late seemed to have elevated Aurorus's usefulness to the point where I can seriously consider it to be ranked. The rise of bulky Poison-types along with Diancie's high popularity have kept most of the faster revenge killers in the meta in check (particularly the Choice-locked variants), but at the same time the presence of bulky Steels has been significantly reduced ever since the ice cream ban. Aurorus can thrive in this bulkier meta with the dreaded Blizzard + Freeze-Dry combination, with Aurorus's Specs Blizzards being strong enough to 2HKO max SpD Scrafty after just SR chip. Earth Power is brilliant coverage, handily covering most of the remaining relevant Ice resists.

While Aurorus's weaknesses are definitely off-putting, its impressive bulk actually makes it difficult to KO without targeting its 4x weaknesses or resorting to the strongest boosted SE attacks. Most of these come from Choice-locked Pokemon, which as mentioned earlier are taken advantage of by the recent increase of bulkier mons. To put it simply, Aurorus's weaknesses either don't completely hinder it from breaking or are just frankly easy to exploit. Aurorus even has other neat tricks to consider, such as its boosting moves and the option to use resist berries to circumvent/solidify certain matchups, which I've went into detail in my linked post above.

I daresay Aurorus is in a better spot in the meta than Mega Abomasnow right now, which is considerably easier to revenge kill due to worse weaknesses, its lesser power and speed are rearing their ugly heads more than ever, and it faces new threats in the form of Bulk Up Scrafty and offensive Weezing.

to C+; that or
&
to C
 
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Rabia

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I'm going to preface this post by saying the rationale behind not moving Passimian to S is really lacking in substance; Passimian being a "crutch" is by no means a knock against its viability and if anything is a positive; the fact you can literally slap this Pokemon on almost any team and it being a positive addition just goes to show how ridiculously solid the Pokemon has been and likely will always be. Set versatility is only one indicator of viability, and I think holding that against Passimian given how dominating of an influence its Choice Scarf set is is really silly. I'm not going to make this a nomination because it's pretty pointless, but I would really prefer some more reasoning.

I've been saying it forever that Incineroar is better than Slowbro, so glad to see other people are seeing the light. It's really pretty hard to actually justify either of the other, but I give the edge to Incineroar primarily because of the continued rise of Alolan Exeggutor as well as Vileplume; the fact so few Slowbro actually run Psychic/Psyshock is a huge boon for Vileplume, as that lets it check Slowbro considerably more effectively. I could even make the argument that pretty much every wallbreaker that's common right now bops Slowbro with little punishment, although I don't find this train of thought all too compelling. I also think Incineroar's reemergence as a top 3 wallbreaker in the tier really helps its case over Slowbro; it's really damn hard to find semi-consistent defensive counterplay to Incinium Z Incineroar, and I think the strain this puts on teambuilding combined with the defensive set's merits push Incineroar slightly above Slowbro for now.

I still think Xatu is overrated and should drop within A+, although no further than below Diancie. The 50/50s Xatu forces are really not in its favor at all and end up vastly overselling its entry hazard prevention capabilities; there's so much more risk to switching into a Diancie with Xatu than there was with Sneasel Pursuit trapping something like Haunter or just clicking Knock Off a year ago.

klanger sucks lol

I'm not really too sold on Alolan Exeggutor dropping to A-; the rise of Togedemaru and Golbat has hurt it somewhat, as has the inclusion of Mega Glalie and to a lesser extent Diancie, but it still is really effective at taking advantage of Pokemon like Steelix, Rhydon, and non-Ice Beam Blastoise. I could probably see it under Weezing/Comfey, but I'm not sure yet.

I don't think Diancie replacing Steelix as the premier Stealth Rock setter is enough of a reason to knock Braviary down to B+. Togedemaru being more common is kind of annoying, although you chew any one hit and can Roost to scout what it locks itself into or can just blow it back with Superpower/All-Out Pummeling. Maybe move Braviary down under Druddigon?

I personally feel like the Delphox hype as died down quite a bit, but its defensive utility is pretty fucking insane still. It's at least better than Palossand lol.

nitpicky within C nomination, but Charizard and Articuno are definitely better than Alolan Sandslash; Articuno is one of the faces of stall imo, while Charizard is a potent wincon with good defensive utility. like yeah this has nothing to do with meta shifts lol Alolan Sandslash is just not very good

malamar is still bad Eternally

I'm honestly not sure about how I feel about how low Steelix is, especially in comparison to Rhydon. I'm not gonna make any real comments regarding where either should be, but I don't think Rhydon is that good.
 

poh

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= A-

Flyinium Braviary hasn't gotten worse since the time i nommed it to A- , which was late December. While I think the Scarf set it is pretty bad and not being sure if the Sub set is still ok, Braviary is still the same threatning powerhouse. If you're using a rocker like Druddigon, Palossand or Seismitoad you definitely need something to check it cause having no Flying resist is will result in a nightmare if you ever face the bird. Fuck it i'm just gonna quote myself cause the argument still stands lol. "+1 SSSS hits like 87 trucks and it enjoys the presence of Defoggers, Intimidate users and Parting shooters. Has the bulk to set-up, good speed and power and is a very effective breaker thanks to Superpower." Imo this proves how solid the bird is.

--> A-

The combination of its typing and stats really make this mon thrive atm. Bops the popular Poison-types, bops the popular Grass-types, checks the still annoying Comfey etc. Scarf and CM sets are good cause people often rely on Passimian as their speed control and CM sets can really tear apart teams once Incineroar has been weakened enough. Speaking of a weakened Incineroar, i'm enjoying the Subtox set a lot lately. I run both stabs to still hit the Poison-types and lowering your health into Blaze range with Substitute while potentially stalling Toxic damage is actually a really good strategy.

= B-

Klinklang was getting worse and worse the last 5-6 months but i think this mon can have a shot at redemption following the latest metagame trends. Steelix isn't as common as it used to be and Klang enjoys the increase of mons it can set-up on. It can adapt to Passimian by using sub, can run Facade to render Weezing as complete set-up bait etc. This mon definitely isn't on the same level as C mons like Ferroseed and Hariyama.

--> lower

Probs wasn't on the voting slate but here's the reasoning again:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-nu-viability-rankings-v2.3645166/page-3#post-8073677
--> higher

The special set might not be as good as before but people are heavily sleeping on the SD set. Again, abusing teams with Passimians only speedcontol and finds plenty of set-up opportunities (even sets up on plume lol). It has the coverage to completely sweep the opponent lategame without problems. Here are some replays showcasing the set:


--> A-

This should be A- solely for the fact it's the best defogger in the tier. Good pivot, good typing, spinblocker

<-->


They should swap ranks cause of Pyuku's lack of checking Power Trip Incineroar.

--> C
wtf is this thing doing in b lmao, banks reasoning is spot on
-> c+ / lower

Honestly, this mon is so forgettable and lacklustre. Although usage doesn't equate to viability, this mon has seriously not been used like, at all. Whenever I've attempted to build with it I find myself always thinking Blastoise or any other Water-type really would fit better. It doesn't really check Heliolisk as Specs Hyper Voice still does huge damage + more Grass Knot Heliolisk, doesn't check Swords Dance Incineroar, doesn't check Delphox as CM sets beat it + it just gets Toxiced. The only thing it's useful for is Rotom and Magmortar to a very certain extent, plus with Tspikes and Spikes heavy meta, Gastrodon finds itself in a really bad position.
--> B-

This mon is definitely better than the C mons. NP + Protect helps it vs Passimian and goes with the T-Spikes trend.

--> B-
Again, supporting banks on this one
-> b- / b

This mon is definitely a lot better than whatever was in the C ranks. Being a decently bulky (specially defensive at least) Fighting-type that can setup on Vileplume and Weezing as well as deal massive damage to them is a very distinct and valuable trait rn, especially considering a lot of teams have those two (or garb) as their primary passimian (fighting-type) switch-ins.

Gallade @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Psycho Cut / Zen Headbutt
- Knock Off

This is the set I use, I prefer Knock Off as oppose to Leaf Blade as it can cover Xatu, Slowbro, Delphox and Palossand in one slot. Psycho cut avoids any helmet damage taken from Weezing, Vileplume, or Garbodor as well as Effect Spore, although Zen can be useful to just deal more damage in general. All in all Gallade exploits common and formulaic teams like plume / weezing as Fighting checks and roar / slowking for Psychic checks with its excellent stab coverage.
Can we see the voting slate again like last time? :blobthumbsup:
 
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167369

Exeggutor-Alola to A- : Disagree
Maybe it's just me but I don't think Egg has any more or less trouble doing its job now than it did before. Obviously there are a lot of good 'mons that resist its coverage that are getting more and more popular, but it's still one of my first choices when I'm looking to add a special wallbreaker onto a team. Great STAB options that hit really hard in addition to a decent typing that lets it abuse some of the tier's fatmons are what Egg brings to the table, and even if it can be hard to predict with it sometimes, it usually doesn't have all that much to lose by just spamming. It should be mentioned that as popular as Poison-types are getting right now, none of them like taking a Draco Meteor to the face. Generally speaking this thing is still a huge pain to gameplan for. Keep it where it's at imo.

167370

Slowbro lower in S: Agree
It's still arguably better than Heliolisk and one of the most reliable Pokemon in the tier, but the meta is looking scary for the Bro lately. Mostly this is Vileplume's fault, because even though Slowbro is lucky enough to carry most of the coverage moves that it needs to beat it, it still can't beat Giga Drain. Other than that it's just a tough time to be a Water-type, with a bunch of 'mons running around breaking balance cores that rely on them. I think other than the obvious Swords Dance Incineroar there's also the slow rise of Scrafty, which sets up on Slowbro most of the time thanks to Shed Skin + good SpDef. It's still S material to me, but not quite the #1 option anymore.

167371

Vaporeon lower than A: Agree
It's too passive. I like it but it struggles in this meta. Not to mention I'm always considering Blastoise and Slowbro thoroughly before going with Vaporeon, because it has less utility than Toise and less bite than the Bro. It suffers from 4MSS due to having to run Wish / Protect / Scald, and a lot of the time you're forced to just spam Protect and hope for the best against scary 'mons. I want to run Roar, Heal Bell, Toxic, and Ice Beam on this thing, but it's just not possible. Far and away the least appealing bulky Water in the higher ranks.

167372

My own nom is that Rhydon should drop to A-, though. It's nice and tanky and has favorable matchups with a lot of support 'mons, but it might actually be even more vulnerable than Slowbro. Worse typing, no reliable recovery, and a thoroughly predictable moveset makes it harder to use in this more offensive meta. Not only that, but it's pretty much always competing for a spot with Diancie, who as we've established is possibly the premier Stealth Rock setter in the tier right now. Has a hard time vs Weezing and Vileplume also. Drop Donny!

I'm not sure about Delphox or Braviary, quite frankly haven't used either of them enough to say if they should be moved around. I do think Passimian should still be considered an S-rank Pokemon for reasons other people have covered. I don't think Sceptile should go higher, it's just not threatening enough right now and I think A is fine.
 
Got a few thoughts on the matter given a combination of recent meta trends I've been analyzing as well as a single very large buff to one of the tier's staples:

Gallade from the C-ranks to B- or B: Strongly Agree

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, its niche is something that is greatly appreciated in this meta. Its STABs alone threaten a huge portion of viable threats including Vileplume and it has the coverage options to pick and choose what it wants to break past from there. This thing is being highly undervalued in C right now and should rise significantly.

Rhydon to A-: Somewhat Agree

Rhydon is still hilariously bulky, hits hard, and has a solid typing offensively. However, it greatly lacks a defensive presence despite its incredible bulk because of its atrocious typing leaving it weak to an array of metagame staples. Rhydon doesn't suck by any means and I don't think A- would come even remotely close to implying it would, so a drop isn't too unfeasible.

Exeggutor-A to A-: Disagree

It still has a good offensive typing, hits like a truck, and boasts solid coverage. I get the rationale behind it dropping but I don't think it deserves to drop quite yet.

Slowbro to Lower in S: Conflicted

I'll get to this one in a second but I think a recent change to one of this meta's staples does Bro a whole world of good to the point where I don't think I can realistically agree with it being ranked lower although I could realistically see it being dead-even with Incineroar.

And now for a really, really big one:

Passimian to S, above Heliolisk

I generally lurk other tiers' VR threads and see what's up and I genuinely couldn't see why it didn't deserve S before. It's the tier's most consistent Scarfer bar none and that alone made it worthy of being in S. But a lot changed in a mere 24 hours and I think there is absolutely no good argument against it being worthy of S:

Passimian just got its Hidden Ability through Bank. That ability is Defiant. It now has an actual ability, and it is a very very good one when one of the most spammed threats on the ladder runs Intimidate.

Arguably the best mon in the tier in Incineroar has an extreme amount of usage and always runs Intimidate because that ability is integral in allowing it to perform the billions of different roles it can potentially fulfill at any given time. Even though it obviously had no business switching in its Intimidate could serve as a last-ditch effort to limit Passimian's damage output considerably, preventing it from revenge killing some crucial targets. Now that it has Defiant one of the tier's most common threats literally can't come in at any point while it's alive because if it does it gives Passimian a boost to its Attack stat. It effectively turns the Scarf set into a super fast Band set as well and even half of a Defiant boost can net Passimian a metric ton of OHKOs and 2HKOs it would otherwise miss out on.

If Passimian was somehow not worthy of S before it most certainly is now. Please raise this thing.
 

Rabia

Ganyu my beloved
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Passimian to S, above Heliolisk

I generally lurk other tiers' VR threads and see what's up and I genuinely couldn't see why it didn't deserve S before. It's the tier's most consistent Scarfer bar none and that alone made it worthy of being in S. But a lot changed in a mere 24 hours and I think there is absolutely no good argument against it being worthy of S:

Passimian just got its Hidden Ability through Bank. That ability is Defiant. It now has an actual ability, and it is a very very good one when one of the most spammed threats on the ladder runs Intimidate.

Arguably the best mon in the tier in Incineroar has an extreme amount of usage and always runs Intimidate because that ability is integral in allowing it to perform the billions of different roles it can potentially fulfill at any given time. Even though it obviously had no business switching in its Intimidate could serve as a last-ditch effort to limit Passimian's damage output considerably, preventing it from revenge killing some crucial targets. Now that it has Defiant one of the tier's most common threats literally can't come in at any point while it's alive because if it does it gives Passimian a boost to its Attack stat. It effectively turns the Scarf set into a super fast Band set as well and even half of a Defiant boost can net Passimian a metric ton of OHKOs and 2HKOs it would otherwise miss out on.

If Passimian was somehow not worthy of S before it most certainly is now. Please raise this thing.
I just want to respond to this point because it stuck out the most. Defiant in no way is pushing Passimian to being an S rank threat -- period end of story. This post vastly overhypes Defiant's usefulness in preventing Incineroar from switching in; keep in mind how turn order works. You're making the assumption that Passimian is always coming in before Incineroar does. If Incineroar comes in first, Intimidate will affect the Pokemon that is switching out.

If you want good arguments against it being S: rise of bulky Poison-types like Weezing and Golbat, the continued efforts of Pokemon like Vileplume and Slowbro to stop Passimian from being anything more than a U-turn bot, rise of Togedemaru as a viable Choice Scarf user, little to no actual set versatility (which isn't necessarily a bad thing as I've said before, but it is part of the counterargument), and it simply not being on the level of the current big three (this is more subjective than the other arguments, but I think it's something that could be said).

Everyone needs to keep in mind that Passimian will only really be getting Defiant feasibly from Defog, which is a risky proposition given common Defoggers like Rotom, Decidueye, and Golbat can all punish the fuck out of an overzealous Passimian switch in.
 

Osh

Believe In Me, Who Believes In You
is a Tiering Contributoris a former Tournament Circuit Champion
Came off of a seasonal loss yesterday and one of the things I've learned throughout the run was how underlooked Zangoose is. Probably my favourite Breaker at the moment. Sanjay pointed out to me that the dude was unranked and I don't normally do these often but I do truly believe this needs a significant rise
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-886743122 ssnl round 13 vs zben
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-427545 spl vs lax
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-429994 ssnl round 12 vs finch
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-882909512 ssnl round 13 vs yeezy
E: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-877224959 ssnl R11 vs elias psy (played horrendous but goose puts in work iirc)

These are I believe the only tour games I've played using the mon (I've used it a bunch in tests but only relevant games are tour ones imo) I believe each of them highlight its immediate power and sweeping capabilities paired with healing wish

I wouldn't even bother at all with the belly drum memento core cuz it's too reliant but the toxic boost zangoose is a different story.

Its actually got a really nice speed tier so it's able to pop its toxic orb early and just start hacking away if you've got some uturn support (mesprit makes a great partner with uturn and healing wish).

One thing I've learned is even if you get the predict wrong you're still doing like 40min to something and it's got decent bulk to warrant high risk high reward play so ye

Definitely not unranked, don't usually like doing these posts and cba writing reams but I genuinely think Zangoose being unranked is a crime, don't care where it ends up but it needs some luv
 
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Rabia

Ganyu my beloved
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
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gonna put my thoughts here because tbh they're both meta-related and viability-related

Garbodor has proven my point since the last VR shift that it was never below Weezing in viability; both Spikes and Toxic Spikes are very potent in the current metagame, and Garbodor has the unique niche of being able to set both while also removing Toxic Spikes when switching in. Couple that with functioning as a competent check to Grass- and Fighting-types as well as Comfey and you've got something more than a jack of all trades. This isn't to say Weezing isn't bad at all; however, I think the current discrepancy between their ranks on the VR is pretty silly. Garbodor should probably just rise back into A-.

Pangoro has been... weird so far. On paper, this Pokemon is banworthy because of the lack of defensive counterplay to it. Its dual STAB is really hard to switch into, and Gunk Shot lets it blast overzealous Fairy-types. The problem though is Pangoro suffers from Mega Abomasnow syndrome; it's a slow wallbreaker with little defensive prowess at all. Pangoro does have some potentially interesting utility in options like Parting Shot and maybe sets like Choice Scarf and Assault Vest, but it really relies on pivot support to get in safely. As of now, I'd probably put it somewhere in the B to B+ range, although I could see it going higher or lower honestly. I think the biggest detriment to it will be the commonness of Passimian, which really limits the amount of versatility this thing can run without just feeling like a poor man's fruit monkey.

If I'm being honest, Incineroar feels so above and beyond Heliolisk and any other potential S rank Pokemon; it's easily the best wallbreaker or at the very least one of the best 3 now that Diancie is gone, and its defensive presence is still a godsend. I could really see the creation of an S- rank to dictate this, although I may be being a bit too high on Incineroar/low on Heliolisk.

I shouldn't have to mention this, but Minior has been really overhyped lately lol. Slowbro leaving helps it sure, but because Diancie left you're going to see more Rhydon as well as the Pokemon people have been citing as dropping in usage lately, Steelix. What people seem to always forget is that Minior is actually not capable of putting in that much offensive work into its ability activates; otherwise, it just dies to random Scald from bulky Water-types as it tries in desperation to KO them with whatever move.

I still have no idea what the VR team was actually trying to vote for with regards to DRUDDIGON. It was voted to remain in A last slate, but it was A- prior. Did the VR team think it was already A? Or did they just not want it to rise from whatever rank it was currently in? Regardless, this vote should probably be looked at again.

Slowking has been demonstrating itself to be really effective without Slowbro giving it competition; apart from Assault Vest remaining an excellent glue set and means of scouting, physically defensive variants have been popping up as well and seem to be rather effective. I'm also a real big fan of Nasty Plot variants; Psychium Z sets possess an absurdly good nuke in Z-Future Sight, while Buginium Z sets are great at drawing in opposing Slowking as well as the occasional Guzzlord. Slowking should be A- minimum right now.

Mismagius should at least be the top of C+ or low B- right now; there is zero way you are convincing me this monster is worse than FERROSEED and MEGA ABOMASNOW LOL. Incineroar will always be a problem, but I don't think asking for entry hazards to help chip it down is too much to ask for. Having to choose between Dazzling Gleam and Power Gem does hurt, but this Pokemon is way more workable than low C+ implies lol. I've been loving Nasty Plot + Protect to help versus Passimian, and this also gives increased synergy alongside Toxic Spikes.

Magmortar is bonkers as fuck right now LOL; this absolute Chadrick Chaddington has lost two of its best checks in Diancie and Slowbro, and the drop in Assault Vest Slowking usage only furthers this monster's ability to ruin your dreams. I would argue this is the in the running alongside Incineroar and Heliolisk for top 3 best wallbreakers in the tier and strongly believe Magmortar to be a mid to high A rank threat currently. PSA: Flame Charge Magmortar is fun as FUCK.

Scrafty on the other hand feels somewhat overrated; the discovery or whatever of Z-Zen Headbutt sets certainly gave it a deserved rise, but I don't really know if it's that good. Bulk Up sets are so matchup dependent, while Dragon Dance sets still struggle with being piss slow. I'd like to see this drop within A- at the very least.

Honestly I could argue for Mega Abomasnow to be D rank, but that'd be getting a little mean... I wouldn't mind seeing more discussion on it though; one can argue the loss of Slowbro is both good and bad. Assault Vest Slowbro wasn't a half bad check to non-Swords Dance variants, yet it did provide a free BOP to sets with Wood Hammer.

thank you for coming to my TED talk
 
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Yoshi

IT'S FINK DUMBASS

Speaking of Fire-types that are bonkers, Delphox certainly falls into that line as well! With the absence of Diancie and Slowbro, it works much better as both a wall breaker and a bulky support Pokemon (more so the latter). The lack of Diancie is obviously the bigger gain for Delphox of the two, as losing the best Heal Bell user of the tier ("best" because @ Miltank) is obviously a huge bonus for Delphox sets that use Wish. It also gives Delphox less of a reason to be forced into running a Grassium Z set on Calm Mind variants, although with the increased usage of Slowking that sort of gets cancelled out. Speaking of Slowking, I see a lot of people saying that Delphox didn't get all much better with the Slowbro loss because Slowking is a direct replacement. I'd like to remind people that Slowking is certainly not a replica of Slowbro, and that is certainly displayed in that Slowking is much less splashable than its physically defensive counterpart. This means the net gain in viability for Delphox with the loss of Slowbro is not cancelled out by Slowking by any means. Not to mention, Delphox is already a fantastic check for a Pokemon people seem to be complaining about so much, Comfey, and even easily checks the recent addition of Pangoro. Therefore, I think a rise to A-/A would be a good change for Delphox to reflect its position in this current meta.

As a side note, the Choice Scarf set isn't half bad either. A lot of people don't like it because it doesn't seem to put in the work in their matches, but I find that to be quite the contrary. A Choice Scarf user with a lot of versatility alongside being faster than Passimian is a huge bonus, especially in this meta in which Passimian lost one of its best checks. Something that is super obvious but also important to note is that no one seems to use Sneasel anymore (especially because of Passimian) but perhaps we will see it rise in usage once again BECAUSE Delphox is such a prominent force in this meta. Only time will tell. I encourage people to build with all Delphox sets (Calm Mind, WishPhox, Choice Scarf) because I think it is actually one of the Pokemon that is easiest to fit onto teams, at least in my style of building.


The community seems to be very split on Pangoro from the conversations I've been having. Some people think it's broken, whereas some people think it's not all that hot. In terms of what I think, I don't believe Pangoro is broken by any means. Most of the arguments I see people make in support of getting rid of Pangoro are paper-based arguments. While Pangoro is an extremely strong wall breaker and oftentimes seems easy to get in on paper, in practice that type of situation is a lot more rare than one might think (as someone who as built and used Pangoro teams these past few days). It's not always as simple as clicking U-Turn or Volt Switch, or simply revenge killing. You have to remember that Pangoro isn't a super bulky Pokemon. It is only taking 1-2 hits at most, and with a lack of recovery, that is a massive problem, ESPECIALLY due to the lack of Speed. You could argue that it has the option of running Drain Punch, but this leaves it at risk to Pokemon like Comfey and Whimsicott (which I suppose could be argued against in that they hate taking a Knock Off). Drain Punch is also not that strong of a move, and oftentimes you'd much rather take a life then get some recovery back on Pangoro.

Really what I am trying to get across here is that Pangoro can't 6-0 teams. There needs to be some kind of incredibly elaborate set up to get Pangoro on the field in not just a safe manner, but also in a manner as to where it can actually do some damage as well. Of course, this is all match up and situation dependent, so someone may have a completely different experience with Pangoro than I have. Also, to repeat what Rabia said, the omnipresence of Passimian is a huge reason as to why Pangoro isn't as viable as well, for reasons that are obvious.

That being said, Pangoro is by no means an unviable Pokemon. While it can be difficult to get Pangoro out in a safe and useful manner, when you manage to pull this off whether it be through getting the lead match up right, making a double switch / prediction, etc., it is likely that Pangoro is going to be doing a ton of damage. From what I have noticed on the ladder and through casual play is that a lot of players have been running Ghost-types to add onto the prediction factor for Pangoro. However, what these people fail to notice is that Pangoro can actually hit those Ghost-types, and I don't just mean with Knock Off. For some it may seem obvious, but a lot of people have evidently forgotten that Pangoro gets Scrappy. I was a bit skeptical on what ability Pangoro should be using, but it should ALWAYS be using Scrappy on Choice Band. Being able to easily OHKO Pokemon like Dhelmise and Decidueye without having to deal with their Colbur Berry is huge in a lot of match ups (could be more or less depending on what type of team you are running).

With that in mind, the biggest enemy for Pangoro are the Poison-types of the tier (and Slowking). Garbodor, Weezing, and Vileplume can all come in and eat a Superpower. That being said, they all run the risk of taking a Knock Off, and Garbodor itself gets obliterated by Earthquake, so they are never entirely safe. In terms of the Fairy-types, Pangoro can get the prediction right and take them out with Gunk Shot. The reason I underline the phrase "get the prediction right" is because it is another factor into why Pangoro isn't all of what some people are making it out to be. Choice Band Pangoro is perceived as the best set from what I understand, but while great power comes with running Choice Band, you also gain the risk of losing all momentum by predicting incorrectly. While Scrappy does remove a bit of that element of prediction, if you accidentally Superpower into a Garbodor, that's a huge problem (especially in this case, as Toxic Spikes have proven to be super prominent in this meta already).

There's definitely a lot more I can talk about in terms of Pangoro in terms of how it can fit onto teams, other in-game scenarios, etc. But I hope I've gotten across with this post is that Pangoro is certainly far from broken. I do understand that this is also the VR, but talking about those things were necessary in deciding where to place Pangoro anyway. With all that information in mind, I would recommend slotting Pangoro somewhere in the A-/A range. I do understand where Rabia is coming from in the B area, and I wouldn't be opposed to a B+ ranking, but at least with my experience using Pangoro, I do think it is deserving of an A-/A placement.

----

Perhaps I'll edit more nominations in later but I just wrote an essay on Pangoro, lol.
 

jcbc

Doubles LC Leader
is a Pre-Contributor
ok so i've been waiting for the shifts to come out before i posted some nominations but seeing how big and meta changing this were i prefered to wait some days and test things out to make a good post.

So here are my thoughts as of now:

Delphox (from B+ to A/or even A+)
delphox actually loves this new meta, not having diancie is amazing for him since you are able to run a Z that isn't grassium, which is amazing to have for a one time nuke more effective, it also have a huge impact with his coverage on a meta with a lot of poisons and a fair increase on the usage of fighting types. I do think that Z is the best now but wish tect still being amazing (even better now that diancie is gone) but even scarf is good now, since with it's good speed tier it's able to outspeed any mon and now sneasel is not as common so it won't have that trouble now. And even that (as yoshi already said in his essay post) slowking is raising in usage it can still pull throught. Delphox was already going up before the shifts but this ones put phox on a rocket going straight to the top of usage.

Accelgor (from B+ to A-)
accelgor was another mon that was already going up in usage but losing diancie is huge for him, it lost the best check it had for it's offensive sets, but also the hazard setter + final gambit set is going to go up in usage because of how offensive is turning the meta, i'm not saying fat is bad, but offense got a boost with these shifts and accelgor is definetly an amazing mon to fit on for a lot of offense builds.

Golbat (from B to A-/A)
golbat has been on the mouth of a lot of users (one of the best example i can give is the nom that my man rw already did a while ago) but i think that it's time to open up this debate yet again, golbat with the past of time just gets better and better and the mons that gave problems to it keep dissapearing (watch diancie and slowbro as the most recent examples), and the meta definetly keeps favoring it's typing and bulk i won't tell too much nor explain, because a lot of my points of views is just a copy of what rw already said on his post so you can just go and read it.

Piloswine (from B to B+)
this mon definetly loved this shifts, diancie going makes the rest of usable rockers inmediatly better but the reason i'm nomminating this specific one is because of how offensive the meta is turning on and because of bro leaving which opens the door for pilo to be a little bit better.

Pyukumuku &
Quagsire (just replace the position of this too)
pyuku is just worse at stalling out the big number of setters that we have in the tier and is fairly passive, quagsire does wall power trip incin and sub bu brav which pyuku didn't and that's a huge factor to thing of in any stall build.

Torterra (from B- to C+)
this mon is still usable but is not as good as it was, helio is not ever close to the strong point where it was when tort became popular, that added to how tort gets outclassed as a bulky grass by plume and even by dhelmise, and how it's just not as good as any of the other rockers.

Medicham
(from B- to B/B+) medicham loves this shifts, this mon just lost one of his nightmares being this slowbro, which is amazing. The damage this mon have is amazing and with his best check gone it's fairly reasonable to this mon go up in usage, we might see, but this mon definetly got better.

Sigilyph (from B to B+/A-)
this has been rocking it lately, his specs tinted lens sets has legit no switch ins and it's damage it's just ridiculous, with all this poison types around and mons like blastoise on the rise this mon just loves this meta and can destroy teams just in preview, the lack of sneasel in this meta is a plus too.

Sceptile &
Vikavolt (swap the position of these two)
ok so basically i think sceptile just keep getting in a worse position with every meta change while vikkavolt with it's bulk, coverage and damage is way better, all the poison types that the tier is running the lack of diancie and bro (mons which sceptile could had pressured) and the increase on use of the fighting types is a plus for vikka.

Braviary (from A- to A)
this bird got freed from not only his best but also his second best check, braviary loves this shifts and looks like a threat to think of while building with no doubt, bu sub BB and bu fightinium both look super good rn and it can just destroy a lot of teams if it gets to set up.

Pangoro (to B)
ok so i personally have been very splitted on panda so here are my thoughts:
when at the end of march the rumor of panda dropping was a usual conversation, i thought that it would be healthy it doesn't have the speed to sweep teams, and while it has a big atk stat, that just make it good. But when it dropped and i started testing it/playing vs it i found it not as healthy as i have imagined, it just came in and claim one a lot of times. But that just happened because everyone was still on adapting process, i definetly think pangoro is healthy, it hits like a truck but it's not broken at all. And while i do get the points of the ppl that argue for a ban, as one person that at a first glance when it dropped thought that it should be banned, i can definetly say that's just not true, losing diancie (which is one of the argument that a lot of ppl use) doesn't make it broken, diancie would be good against panda but it's not the end of the world at the end i think pangoro is not a mon you can just throw into every team and while it's goona be good it won't be meta breaking.
As for the sets, i'd say that with no doubts CHOICE BAND w/Scrappy is the best set, being able to hit any mon no matter typing and get a ohko a lot of the times is just amazing, scrappy allows you to don't have to predict since it allows you to click superpower which if you ask me is by far the best move of pangoro, but it also have a second set which isn't as good as choice band and needs a little bit more support for it to get good results but it's still decent enough to have it as an option and this one is SD chople w/Mold Breaker this set just destroys super fat teams/stall and still put into work vs more offensive ones.

Xatu (from A+ to A-)
xatu is just not as good as it used to be, it doesn't beat any rocker bar lix which is already going down in usage, the spikers also demolish xatu and weezing as the main tspiker setter pressures it, not to mention the Z thunder set. So while xatu is not horrible i'd definetly argue it's just not as good, and it shouldn't be put on every team (as was happening a couple months ago) because it's not as easy to just throw it into every team. I also think the analysis set is kinda passive for this meta and something like psychic/shock gk/Dgleam u-turn roost is fairly better rn.

Vaporeon (from A to A-)
this mon sadly is just passive and it's hard to fit on a team out of balance, it's still pretty good with no doubts but having the five move syndrome it's just painful.

Ferroseed (from C+ to D)
this mon hasn't be any good since almost a year, using this mon is completely unarguable, as a spiker role it gets demolished by garbodor and accelgor, it's just so passive that any mon can get momentum on it, the waters are kinda offensive and it also doesn't want to risk the scald burn which would make it go down even faster, i don't see the reason for this to be ranked being fully honest and till PU steal it (hopefully in the next shifts) i would just drop this to D.

Houndoom (from C to UR)
this mon just doesn't have a reason to be ranked anymore, delphox completely outclasses it not only as setup sweeper but also as scarfer, and as a trapper sneasel does his job 1000 times better.

Gastrodon (from B to C+)
as much as i would love that the slug is good, it's just not, as a fat water it gets outclassed by ever other one, it's typing doesn't help since seismitoad is just better at that, and the nice it has as a fat water that can check helio isn't good enough to justify it since 2 max rolls of hyper voice + rocks kills.

Typhlosion (from D to C)
i know that this nomination is going to be kinda hated but i do think that (even this mon need a lot of team support) his specs set can put into work now that diancie and slowbro are not around anymore, the pressence of slowking may be a trouble but as i say this mon needs good team support. i can definetly see this mon going out of D since i think that we have worst things out of C (ferroseed for example).

Comfey (from A- to B+)
i just don't see a good reason as to why this mon should be ranked this high, it just struggles on this meta to the point sometimes is useless, with all this poison types around comfey just have a bad dream.

Magmortar (from A- to A)
this mon is a monster, and losing diancie makes it even better its breaking potential is huge and while slowking usage rising may affect this mon, it will still be a huge threat.

Dugtrio-Alola (from UR to C)
this mon is definetly worth using, it's typing makes it fairly good, this added to this mon being able to compress the role of rocker of the team makes it worth using, at the same time, it had a really nice speed tier being able to outspeed top mons such as delphox or glalie and it has a good moveset to be able to hit big part of the tier.
Dugtrio-Alola @ Life Orb
Ability: Tangling Hair
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic/Sucker Punch
This is the set i'd recommend using, stabs hit a good amount of the tier, sr to compress the rocker role as i already mentioned and last slot it's down to what the person likes more, i prefer toxic to help chip fat waters and some breakers, but sucker punch is a good option too to hit rotom and for scarf delphox.

Slowking (from B- to B+)
slowking lost his brother this shift but he's not sad at all, with slowbro gone this mon can fullfill the task the latter was doing in a lot of teams, and while slowking is fairly different to slowbro and it does struggle with things that slowbro didn't it's a really good mon and i think that it won't be as good as bro was but king will for sure give some headache to some teams.

Mismagius to B-/B
Gallade to B-
rotom to A-
Garbodor to A-

rhydon to A-

i could have talked more about the nominations inside the spoilers but this post was already too long and i personally couldn't write more so... if it's needed i'll explain why but yh :psywoke:

That was my final nomination, this is how i feel about the tier rn and i know it's a large post but this shifts were big so it bringed a lot of changes, i'm happy with how the tier is rn, i will probably do another post in the future with more nominations but as for now here you go, i hope you all have a good reading! :psyglad:
 
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Pangoro>B
I feel that this thing is definitely being a bit over rated. Other wallbreakers in NU provide either defensive utility or a useable speed tier. Alolan-egg can switch in safely the majority of the time versus the tiers water types, Magmortar and Medicham can outspeed Decidueye and Incineroar, and Vikavolt can check non-band Dhelmise; Sceptile; Passimian. Pangoro can't really claim any of that. It does have something going for it though, scrappy, which basically removes all prediction from clicking hammer arm/drain punch, and mold breaker is somewhat useful (but only marginally because of stalls rarity). Lastly it's a bit harder to fit into teams due to Passimian being such a good pokemon to run, and a second fighting type on a team not being the best idea. Just not the greatest thing ever and think it's just new toy syndrome for most.
 
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Greetings NUsers, we're making it a habit to do a VR Council revamp of the rankings every 3 months (in line with the major tier shifts), so we've gone ahead and voted on everything currently ranked to get a more accurate depiction of the tier as it stands. I've also heard that people would like more frequent updates, so we're going to try and have a slate done every 2-3 weeks from here on out. Before I post the update, keep in mind that this does not include any nominations since the last update, we'll be voting on those in exactly 2 weeks from now, so get in as much discussion and nominations as you'd like until then. Without further ado, here are the changes for this update! (Note: Placements within sub-rankings have also been shuffled around a bit.)

Code:
Rises:
Vileplume: A+ > S
Delphox: B+ > A-
Aerodactyl: B > B+
Sigilyph: B > A-
Slowking: B- > A-
Ferroseed: C+ > B-
Malamar: C > C+
Hitmonlee: D > C
Typhlosion: D > C
Pangoro: UR > A-
Granbull: UR > C
Scyther: UR > C+
Regirock: UR > C+

Drops:
Seismitoad: B+ > B
Pyukumuku: B > B-
Whimsicott: B > B-
Silvally-Steel: B- > C
Torterra: B- > C+
Klinklang: B- > C
Cryogonal: C > D
Vileplume is quite comfortably the second best Pokemon in the tier thanks to it's fantastic typing, defensive utility, raw power, reliable recovery, and all around consistency. SpD Growth is a ridiculously good wincon 1v1s would-be counters like Golbat thanks to Strength Sap, and easily walks over many passive defensive-cores / Water / Grass / Steel backbones. It has a bunch of other viable options in Sleep Powder, Moonblast for checking Scrafty / Guzzlord, Stun Spore for general speed control, and even a PhysDef spread, making it versatile and a consistent pick which provides a ridiculous amount of support for any team. It's clear that Vileplume is a meta defining threat that must be thoroughly accounted for in the teambuilder.

Delphox greatly appreciates the departure of Diancie and Slowbro from the tier and has much more room to run potent offensive sets such as Calm Mind Z-Move, Choice Specs, and the classic Choice Scarf. Slowking admittedly deals with Delphox better than Slowbro did, but it's much easier to Pursuit Trap and not quite as splashable due to it being a less effective Fighting-type check. With the increased popularity of spinblockers like Decidueye and Dhelmise, Incineroar can be pressured very quickly and lose the endgame battle to a revenge killer Delphox. It's typing is also fantastic for offensive teams, providing important resists to Fighting-, Fairy, Grass-, and Steel, among others. Aerodactyl always thrives in metagames where Delphox sees increased viability, and this is compounded by a lack of Slowbro / Diancie to pivot in on it's attacks, as well as a rise in Ghost-types which can be Pursuit trapped by it. Aerodactyl can be rather threatening once it's main checks in Steelix / Rhydon have been knocked off and weakened, and the defensive utility it provides via typing and Pursuit are quite useful for many offensive teams.

Sigilyph has been on the rise for a long time now, mainly due to the popularity of it's Choice Specs and Calm Mind Z-Move sets. Choice Specs with Tinted Lens is incredibly difficult to come in on for slow balance teams and it preys on cores that rely on Incineroar to cover all Psychic-types. Calm Mind Z-Move likewise eliminates SD Incineroar after Stealth Rock and is an absolute nightmare for Stall, Balance, and many bulky offence teams to handle. It has just enough bulk to stomach hits from the likes of Sneasel, Scrafty, and Berry Incineroar, and can 6-0 teams on it's own under the right conditions.

Pangoro is starting off in A- for the time being. The votes were split on this one between A-, A and A+, but we all agreed that it needs a bit more time to solidly itself before going any higher in the end. Choice Band is by far the best set in Pangoro's arsenal, and it's a fantastic wallbreaker that can be very punishing when played well. SD is also an interesting set, though not quite as easy to use nor as immediately threatening. Pangoro's main issue is that it's a tad slow and not quite bulky enough uninvested to get off too many attacks, which can result in it being overwhelmed quickly. That being said, it's still a big menace to any balance teams and Knock Off is an incredibly easy move to spam. It wouldn't be surprising at all to see this Pokemon rise up the ranks in the future once everyone is able to find out how best to support this offensive behemoth.

Granbull was ranked for it's potent offensive sets including Choice Band and Icium-Z, as well as it's defensive Heal Bell set which can check a range of Pokemon such as Pangoro, Scrafty, Medicham, Sneasel, and Aerodactyl. Regirock has much more room to shine with Diancie gone, serving as a respectable stop to Delphox, Sneasel, Incineroar, Vivillon, Glalie-Mega, Golbat, and Braviary, as well as being able to 2HKO Xatu with Rock Tomb or run a surprise Z-Move set to eliminate key threats such as AV Slowking, Rotom, or Vileplume. Finally, Scyther is a solid Choice Scarf user in the current meta, outspeed almost everything, bringing in fearsome wallbreakers with it's U-Turn, and being a solid offensive check to threatening Pokemon such as Sceptile, Scarf Passimian, Mismagius, DD Scrafty, Delphox, and Accelgor.

That's all for now, we'll be voting on the nominations since the last update in two weeks time, so stay tuned for that. Here are some discussion points to consider until then:

Code:
Blastoise: B+ > A-
Slowking: A- > A / A+
Audino-Mega: B > B-
Silvally Steel: C > D
Articuno: C > UR
 

jcbc

Doubles LC Leader
is a Pre-Contributor
Ferroseed: C+ > B-
Malamar: C > C+
I would like to know as to why of this rises, i can more so understand malamar's but ferro?

Anyways about the discussing points:

Blastoise:
Agree


Blastoise has been for a long time, being one of the favorite options in terms of hazard control, thanks to its large bulk and its moveset it is capable of spin in a large part of the meta and in all the rockers, as well of being able to wall a great portion of the threats in the current meta such as incin or delphox (the latter with a little more difficulty). I definitely understand why blastoise is one of the most used options, being a bulky water that offers one of the best hazard removal that exist in the tier rn and that is quite easy to put in a lot of teams is just a really good thing to say about it.

Slowking: Disagree

I already talked about slowking in the nominations post i did not too many time ago, and while my nomination was for B+ i think that A- is fair too, but i can't say the same if we speak about rising it to A. It's true that slowking is kinda a replacement for slowbro in a lot of team but the lack of bulk in phys def it's not that good.

Audino-Mega: Agree


It is well known that stall right now is not the best team archetype, and although it is still usable, it costs more to shine, NU every time has more wallbreakers in the tier, and that affects the "Chansey" of NU, mega-audino, This mon but still doing its function is very passive and many times it is very easy to press it either with volt-turn or with hard doubles. Also with the meta being so full of poison types it costs even more to shine or make a good paper.

Silvally-Steel: Agree (but D instead of UR)


This mon have seen better days, it's just so passive, only fits on vapo balance, loses to all the rockers and it even loses to comfey in a long run which is one of the main reason to use it. I think this pokemon is just not as good anymore.

Articuno: Agree


In the same way as M-Audino, articuno only fits in stall and as I said before stall is not in its best time, besides that the little niche that articuno had to be ranked was the fact that it was the wall for vanilluxe in stall, but that niche no longer exists so I do not see the reason for this mon to be ranked.
 
Blastoise: Disagree
This thing has gotten a little better since the shifts, but it should only have been in B to begin with, so I'll have to side with B+. It has gotten better due to Diancie leaving; and that having an impact on Incineroar's usage, and fire types increasing in prevalence due to Slowbro's and Diancie's leave. But their is also a change that came with the shifts that Blastoise really dislikes, Vileplume skyrocketing in usage due to Slowbro leaving us and more people looking to Plume as the prominent fighting resistance substitute. Allowing Plume a free switch in is a major boon, not much switches into both grass and poison coverage, and beyond that plume could be carrying sleep powder, poisonium-z or even growth. As far as the problems it already had before the shifts, it is too passive and lets Heliolisk in basically free. Sporting good bulk and resistances is great, but we are in a meta where a lot of bulky pokemon can claim to also have decent offensive presence, not having that offensive presence makes it stick out like a sore thumb as nothing more than a B+ Pokemon.
 

Rabia

Ganyu my beloved
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Blastoise: Disagree
This thing has gotten a little better since the shifts, but it should only have been in B to begin with, so I'll have to side with B+. It has gotten better due to Diancie leaving; and that having an impact on Incineroar's usage, and fire types increasing in prevalence due to Slowbro's and Diancie's leave. But their is also a change that came with the shifts that Blastoise really dislikes, Vileplume skyrocketing in usage due to Slowbro leaving us and more people looking to Plume as the prominent fighting resistance substitute. Allowing Plume a free switch in is a major boon, not much switches into both grass and poison coverage, and beyond that plume could be carrying sleep powder, poisonium-z or even growth. As far as the problems it already had before the shifts, it is too passive and lets Heliolisk in basically free. Sporting good bulk and resistances is great, but we are in a meta where a lot of bulky pokemon can claim to also have decent offensive presence, not having that offensive presence makes it stick out like a sore thumb as nothing more than a B+ Pokemon.
This post includes some falsehoods that I'd like to refute. For starters, the increase in prevalence of Fire-types doesn't really benefit Blastoise much considering most of them don't mind it (see: Magmortar, Delphox, even Incinium Z Incineroar). Furthermore, Vileplume was incredibly potent pre-Slowbro leaving and didn't really care about Slowbro anyhow considering the good matchup it generally had into it. Hell, Blastoise barely lets Heliolisk in for free; it's generally a free Toxic whenever you want to predict it.

I think Blastoise should rise for the potency of those Weezing + Blastoise teams; I think Blastoise isn't the best Pokemon out there, but this core has really risen in prevalence, and Blastoise is also a good countermeasure to opposing Toxic Spikes thanks to Refresh. I wouldn't push it much above low A-, but I think it has demonstrated a really solid niche as of late.

I love Articuno and Mega Audino, but stall is just not viable anymore imo. Too many threatening wall/stallbreakers in the tier for it to really keep up with. I think Articuno's niche is largely not worthwhile in this meta nowadays.

Slowking is excellent in the current metagame and should probably move up to A; I'm not sure about A+ yet given I don't really view this as all that much better than Vaporeon necessarily, but it's become increasingly versatile in the wake of Slowbro's absence and largely fulfills the same roles.

I don't really have a strong argument for or against Silvally-Steel, but I'm not really for it going down to D yet; it's still a serviceable Defogger and special pivot overall. It does require really specific support, but it isn't exactly asking a lot to provide it with Wish + Heal Bell, and checking all of these surging Poison-types is quite nice.

I'll probably make another post later lol
 
This post includes some falsehoods that I'd like to refute. For starters, the increase in prevalence of Fire-types doesn't really benefit Blastoise much considering most of them don't mind it (see: Magmortar, Delphox, even Incinium Z Incineroar). Furthermore, Vileplume was incredibly potent pre-Slowbro leaving and didn't really care about Slowbro anyhow considering the good matchup it generally had into it. Hell, Blastoise barely lets Heliolisk in for free; it's generally a free Toxic whenever you want to predict it.

I think Blastoise should rise for the potency of those Weezing + Blastoise teams; I think Blastoise isn't the best Pokemon out there, but this core has really risen in prevalence, and Blastoise is also a good countermeasure to opposing Toxic Spikes thanks to Refresh. I wouldn't push it much above low A-, but I think it has demonstrated a really solid niche as of late.
It's a soft check, I in no way claimed Blastoise was an end all be all fire check. And I never said Vileplume wasn't potent pre-shifts either. Thank you for taking my post incredibly black and white
 

Yoshi

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
-> A- (Agree)
I would've agreed with this nomination before the shifts, and I certainly agree with it now. If we're going to talk about the shifts, I think Diancie leaving is beneficial for Blastoise. Not only is there one less Heal Bell user in the tier, but Diancie as a Stealth Rock user probably had the best match up against Blastoise for a Stealth Rock user. Most people are considering Steelix and Rhydon as "replacements" of sorts, and as such Blastoise is really good at checking those, especially Steelix. On the contrary, Ferroseed is going up a bit in usage, too, which happens to be a hazard setter that can actually threaten Blastoise. Another thing that is great for Blastoise is less competition for a Water-type. While Slowbro offered more than just being a Water-type, I think people would obviously not run Blastoise because they had a Slowbro. I do think that Blastoise is the most consistent hazard remover this tier has right now, and as such it should rise to A-.

-> A / A+ (Disagree)
I think Slowking rising to A might be okay, but certainly not A+. I disagree that Slowking is a direct replacement to Slowbro, as Slowbro was oftentimes used for its physical defensive capabilities. A 30 point difference is huge, and it is a lot harder to Slowking to check the Fighting-types and other physical breakers of the tier. It might seem like it may work on paper, but in practice it more often than not fails to perform the job even nearly as effectively as Slowbro.
 
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Granbull: UR > C
Scyther: UR > C+
Regirock: UR > C+

Granbull was ranked for it's potent offensive sets including Choice Band and Icium-Z, as well as it's defensive Heal Bell set which can check a range of Pokemon such as Pangoro, Scrafty, Medicham, Sneasel, and Aerodactyl. Regirock has much more room to shine with Diancie gone, serving as a respectable stop to Delphox, Sneasel, Incineroar, Vivillon, Glalie-Mega, Golbat, and Braviary, as well as being able to 2HKO Xatu with Rock Tomb or run a surprise Z-Move set to eliminate key threats such as AV Slowking, Rotom, or Vileplume. Finally, Scyther is a solid Choice Scarf user in the current meta, outspeed almost everything, bringing in fearsome wallbreakers with it's U-Turn, and being a solid offensive check to threatening Pokemon such as Sceptile, Scarf Passimian, Mismagius, DD Scrafty, Delphox, and Accelgor.
I'm a bit confused with some of the new implements, although I love a good E rank, why are these new mons even ranked?

I'd like to say that Regirock is mediocre and just because Diancie left, that doesn't make it much better. Being a pure rock type as defensive mon sounds good on paper but it's actually terrible when you think about it practice because almost all nu mons have super effective coverage (Magmortar, Delphox, Incineroar, Sneasel, Braviary and Sigilyph to name a few and these are all from S rank to A-. ) Also I'm not sure how Regirock beats half the mons you listed in your argument? D:
  • In fact, most of Delphox's sets annoy the hell of out Regirock (loses to Grass Z, can't switch into specs and hates toxic protect sub sets)
  • When was regirock a reliable stop to Golbat? Golbat can never be 2HKO and you can factor in roost halving rock damage? rip to toxic?
  • Regirock fails to check Z SD Incin when at +2 it almost kills and Z EQ blows back, regirock can't even OHKO in return (Incin's most popular set)
  • Just like Steelix, Regirock hates losing it item to Band Sneasel and doesnt enjoy switching into low kick which should be a standard move at this point.
  • Since everyone's established that Scarf Brav isn't too great, people have run into using offensive BU sets with z and there's still the classic Sp def bulk up in which you should still be able to win
  • Glalie can still be a monster with double edge + explosion. earthquake still scores good damage and it's not very hard to wear down regirock.

So if you go down the NU teambuilder, you'll actually find out Regirock has little defensive utility since it loses to most mons despite having that initial type advantage. this should probably go back to being unranked. If you're gonna use Z regi then you lose the whole appeal of using it the first place which was to be tank. Don't expect unboosted 100 attack after a Z move to get you so far.

As for Granbull, it sounds like a bad meme and should go back to being unranked. It suddenly got a raise which is pretty strange to me, who nommed it? Right now, there's actually less of a reason to use it because of the introduction of defiant Passimian which remains to be a popular fighting type. Choice Band and Z sets seems to be joke sets to me, I could just use any other wallbreaker like Pangoro who pretty much has no switch ins + resist rocks and has better speed. NU has a million slow wallbreakers anyway but this has to be one of the worst. If you're desperate in checking Medicham + Scrafty then use it but plenty of other memes have some sort of utility but stay unranked.

Scyther should go back to being unranked imo, it has no defining set and just because diancie left doesn't change much because people just go to the next best thing and nu has so many pokemon that aren't bothered by its stabs so you're just forced to u-turn all day. You highlighted Scyther for it's choice scarf set but the set (along with its others) are poor. AA can't even ohko Passimian Mismagius, Scrafty and Alolan Eggy for example which is pretty depressing, have fun running into 1000 walls on balance. Oh and looks like you'll always need rocks support too.
 

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