USUM NU Viability Rankings

#26
to A-
This Pokemon isn't that good anymore, it still beats like a lot of teams but it literally loses to all 4 S rank Pokemon, which is never a good thing. It also really hates Braviary and Vileplume, which are also decently common with the recent meta additions. Scarf Scyther, Medicham, Hitmonlee, and almost every other scarfer after some chip revenge kills, so I don't really see the issue with dropping it to A-. I think it's a fine rank, considering that it's checks have increased in usage, but it still does it's job against bulkier teams.

That's all I have for now, if I see something that I think should change, I'll post in the future.
Hello Yoshizilla! I'd like to make a response to your Virizion nomination and give a few of my thoughts on it. Personally, I disagree with dropping Virizion to A-. While it does lose to most of the S-Rank Pokemon, none of them are comfortable switching in, especially to Z-Stone Edge, and even Delphox loses 1v1 unless it's Choice Scarf, which seems to have dropped out of favor a bit due to the rise of Calm Mind and Wish + Protect sets. Virizion's presence is still extremely strong in the tier, and it breaks through a lot of common cores, namely Steelix + Slowbro. While they are a bit out of date, here is how Virizion matches up vs the sample teams:

Roost Vikavolt Bulky Offense from Hootie - This team still struggles a decent bit with Virizion, as no Pokemon can comfortably switch in, and Virizion can benefit from setup opportunities on a few Pokemon. It's forced to rely on revenge killing to take out Virizion.


Frolass HO from Jarii - You would think this team would have a more favorable matchup vs Virizion, however it again relies on revenge killing from Froslass or Dodrio, both of which are easy to wear down. It can gain setup opportunities vs Rotom-C and Samurott, or a Dodrio locked into Jump Kick or Brave Bird.


Sub Vivillon HO from -Davon - This team matches up a bit better vs Virizion, but even then, Virizion is capable of revenge killing a few Pokemon on this team, and it's only reliable ways of revenge killing Virizion are Mesprit and Braviary, both of which are easily worn down.


Hail Offense from Z+V - Virizion OHKOs or 2HKOs this entire team basically, and if Hail isn't up, you're forced to revenge kill Virizion with Vanilluxe. Another pretty poor matchup.


Granbull Balance from neomon - This is probably the sample team with the best matchup vs Virizion, considering it has Delphox and especially Granbull as two very solid checks. However Virizion still poses as a pretty big threat for at least half of the team here.

Again, these teams are a bit outdated, but the point I wanted to get across is that Virizion is still a very potent threat in the metagame due to it's ability to find setup opportunities with ease and fare well vs any playstyle.


to B+
As for my own nomination, I think Altaria should be moved up to B+. Since the addition of Defog in Altaria's movepool, it has become an elite Defogger thanks to it's ability to match up well vs the tier's top Stealth Rockers. Steelix, Seismitoad, and Druddigon have proven to be the tier's best Stealth Rockers, and unless Druddigon is an offensive variant, Altaria can pretty handily take on all 3 and keep hazards off of it's side of the field. It's also a very solid check to Pokemon such as Emboar and Delphox (without Z-Dazzling Gleam), as well as other setup sweepers such as Slowbro and Samurott. Altaria is very splashable, can fill a lot of roles in a team, and can pivot in and out of status moves thanks to Natural Cure. Therefore I think it should rise to B+.
 
#27
hy i would like to talk about some lower ranked mons (sorry for bad english lul)

to C+/B-

I think Ambipom is a better mon than people think and most people dont like it just because its a mon you associate with lower experienced players. The physical set has some solid utility for teams with fake out to revenge kill scarfes and setupped mons, knock off to remove items from mons like lix toad or rhydon which really helps physically offensive archetypes and u-turn for momentum it also pairs extremly well with hazards and is fairly strong. There is also the Nastly Plot Set which is a ok lure and can be very dangerous late and mid game. This mons speed tier and offense matchup is great.

to C+/B-

Incineroar checks some of the best mons in the meta and although i dont like it it has gotten better with the additon of many solid defoggers and knock off. Bulk Up Sets are deadly against stall and bulkier teams in generall und the AV set can be a great pivot in the right team.

to C/C+

Imo Crustle is one of the best Suicide Leads for HO i the current metagame. I feel like C- doesnt do it justice.

to C+/C

Rain isnt that great imo. Ludicolo has a fairly good offense matchup but its almost useless against stall and there are some mons on balance and even on bo which check ludicolo fairly well (cryo, audino type:null, guzzi, drudd, croaker and even more uncommon mons like articuno. Protect is also very common in this meta.

to C

Needs support, relies on a 75% acc move to work, is weak to common prios and gets revenged by many common scarfers. It can be dangerous in some matchups but i feel like many great mons rn resist grass which hurts Liligants viability as a pure grass type.

to unranked

I mean it checks Whimsi and less people use xatu ... Sorry but I dont see Ferroseed fitting on a team rn, it does some ok things but its so easy to take advantage of it a good chunk of the biggest threats in the tier get a near to free switch in and the lack of leftovers/the need of eviolite really hurt this mon.

to unranked

I feel like you cant justify using Gastrodon rn. Its doesnt check the common fire types and every water type carries toxic rn. I think its completly outclassed by seismitoad because of rocks and slowbro as a defensive water (bc the only relevant electric type it beats is normal rotom)
 

Sir Kay

What do you see up there?
is a Pre-Contributor
#28
1514409962490.png

A+ --> A-

Druddigon is a relic of a meta past. It thrived in a meta where Xatu was a teams only hazard removal and Emboar was the biggest threat to account for, but that's simply not the meta we have anymore. More and more teams are running defog and some times double defog which really hurts the main niche of the Mold Breaker sets. Hell even Xatu now has access to Defog which completely invalidates the set in general. Emboar has been seeing a steady decline in usage which only adds to the reasons to drop this mon from where it is.


1514410738130.png

A+ --> S

Meta changes and movepool changes have really helped Vanilluxe. One of the biggest issues with it back in the day was just how bad our hazard control was as it basically consisted of Xatu and prayer. We also had things like Togedmaru and Cryogonal running around everywhere which were able to keep it in check. But now with how much hazard removal we have, Cryogonal has dropped off and its so much easier to find places to fit it on teams. People have generally stopped prepping for it, with Silvally-Steel being the real only switch in that's in the meta which is still 3hko'd (Sp.d sets are a roll to 3hko with rocks) and given how easy it is to chip down, its not really much of a stop. This thing is really a monster right now in this meta and I think its a very sleeper mon right now.
 
#29
hy i would like to talk about some lower ranked mons (sorry for bad english lul)

to C+/B-

I think Ambipom is a better mon than people think and most people dont like it just because its a mon you associate with lower experienced players. The physical set has some solid utility for teams with fake out to revenge kill scarfes and setupped mons, knock off to remove items from mons like lix toad or rhydon which really helps physically offensive archetypes and u-turn for momentum it also pairs extremly well with hazards and is fairly strong. There is also the Nastly Plot Set which is a ok lure and can be very dangerous late and mid game. This mons speed tier and offense matchup is great.

to C+/B-

Incineroar checks some of the best mons in the meta and although i dont like it it has gotten better with the additon of many solid defoggers and knock off. Bulk Up Sets are deadly against stall and bulkier teams in generall und the AV set can be a great pivot in the right team.

to C/C+

Imo Crustle is one of the best Suicide Leads for HO i the current metagame. I feel like C- doesnt do it justice.

to C+/C

Rain isnt that great imo. Ludicolo has a fairly good offense matchup but its almost useless against stall and there are some mons on balance and even on bo which check ludicolo fairly well (cryo, audino type:null, guzzi, drudd, croaker and even more uncommon mons like articuno. Protect is also very common in this meta.

to C

Needs support, relies on a 75% acc move to work, is weak to common prios and gets revenged by many common scarfers. It can be dangerous in some matchups but i feel like many great mons rn resist grass which hurts Liligants viability as a pure grass type.

to unranked

I mean it checks Whimsi and less people use xatu ... Sorry but I dont see Ferroseed fitting on a team rn, it does some ok things but its so easy to take advantage of it a good chunk of the biggest threats in the tier get a near to free switch in and the lack of leftovers/the need of eviolite really hurt this mon.

to unranked

I feel like you cant justify using Gastrodon rn. Its doesnt check the common fire types and every water type carries toxic rn. I think its completly outclassed by seismitoad because of rocks and slowbro as a defensive water (bc the only relevant electric type it beats is normal rotom)
Yeah I agree with the ambipom rise because as mentioned, it can knock off items and beat weak scarfers w/ fake out. Not only can it knock off items and fake things out, its can also trap things with Pursuit and bring and keep momentum with U-Turn.

ALSO FREE SANDSLASH-ALOLA
 
#30
Incineroar to B-

While Incineroar's old AV set may be dying, new sets emerge, like the power trip bulk up set, but most importantly, it's SD leftovers set. This set can set up easily on bulky and stall teams and dish out a LOT of damage. This set can break through teams if used properly and don't be surprised if it does. When I asked for opinions of it moving up to C+ in the NU room, everybody agreed, and most everyone said B-. Both RhydonPhilip and Earth said "SD Incineroar is good af" and "it should be B- tbh" of course this alone doesn't warrant it rising, but it's increasingly useful ability to check some of the strongest mons in the metagame, like Delphox, Vileplume, Vanilluxe, Xatu, Slowbro, Klingklang and Mismagius. It can also set up against a plethora of pokemon, like Garbodor, Xatu, Delphox, Klingklang, Sceptile and many other threats. It is a very good set and should definitely see a rise for it. Now that ghost types will likely see a resurgence, It seems like smooth sailing for Incineroar

Slowbro to A+
The absence of Sneasel has made Slowbro a serious threat worthy of A+. It can now set up CM more freely without having to worry about getting pursuit trapped and/or getting it leftovers knocked off if it runs that set.
It can cause a serious snowball effect easier with it setting up CM easier and can easily switch into big threats like Steelix, Emboar, Delphox, Klingklang and many more. While you can argue ghost types are rising in usage (which is true) Slowbro can switch out and regain health and has slack off and really it can take care of most of them after +1 or so. Colbur berry also helps it deal with the dark types like Alolan Raticate, Incineroar and Houndoom. However, since Sneasel is only being suspected and is not confirmed to banned, this nom only really applies if it gets banned.

Delphox to A+

While Sneasel may have been temporarily banished from NU, Delphox has been having problems that may be big enough to lose its spot in S rank. One problem is the rise of ghost types. While Slowbro can cope with them thanks to health restoration, Delphox doesn't have health restoration and doesn't usually run calm mind. Another is other dark types trying to claim sneasel's role. While like Slowbro, it can run colbur berry, it usually doesn't anymore, opting for more speed with scarf or power with specs. Such Dark types include Alolan Raticate, Hondoom, and especially Guzzlord and Incineroar. More things switch into it's attack with relative ease now than ever, and I just don't think it makes the cut for S anymore.

Alolan Exeggutor to B+
This mon is actually really good rn tbh. While relatively unexplored atm, Alolan Exeggutor is quite good in a metagame without sneasel. It no longer needs to worry about it's TR sweep being cut short by an ice shard to the face and doesn't have to dread switching in or avoiding setting up TR on Sneasel. I also found Auto TR is really solid right now with the metagame being quite fast right now, allowing it "outspeed" almost everything in TR. Combine this with powerful stab moves and pretty good bulk and you have a solid B+ mon.

These are a few nominations I thought I wanted to talk about rn, feel free to argue or disagree with me in the thread. Thanks for reading :)
1515030088510.png

bop, I'd really like to know how the "absence of sneasel" made Slowbro any better, sneasel isnt absent, it can still be used on ladder. So, how exactly do you know these things?
 
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quziel

I simulate Pottery
is a Pre-Contributor
#31
Talked with eternally a bit yesterday, and wanted to make some noms, note that some of these noms are dependent on Sneasel's presence, and it leaving could affect their validity.


Xatu: A+ => A/A-
Lets be honest, this mon's heyday was in SM, and while it still is good, its rather easy to trap, is easily taken advantage of by many of the tier's wallbreakers (see Vanilluxe, Many Fire types) due to its general passivity, and while its psychic/flying typing suggests it should be a fighting check, its actually pretty bad at that job. Furthermore, its main target, aka Steelix, is at basically an all time low for usage, and many new cores, ex. Type:null/Pursuit simply just eat it, abusing its passivity to set up for free, or trap it for free. Not too much more to say here other than that Xatu has a lot more competition than before from safe defoggers such as Whimsicott and Rotom-Mow, and has to deal with a fairly pursuit-heavy meta, as well as many of its targets falling out of usage (at least to some degree).


Seismitoad: A=> A+
Its the tier's best rocker, and honestly, it can fit on basically any team style, with a very viable defensive rocker set, a potent offensive rocker, and Rain Dance and Sub-Tox sets both being very usable. It easily checks god mon Klinklang, even magnet rise sets thanks to the wonder of Scald, is one of the two rockers that provides a reliable Emboar check (well, not to breaker sets, but checking scarf is still super useful), and unlike drudd, is a tad less likely to completely lose momentum to whims, whilst also forcing whims to use its less spammable stab. Yeah, it dislikes Plume rising in usage (though plume is honestly super meh), same with Whisms, but its just really dependable atm, which is my reasons for nomming it for a rise.


Aromatisse: B+ => A-/A
Basically this thing means that if sneasel ever clicks a dark move, the opponent has to deal with an Aromatisse under tr, which is like, really hard. It has proven itself to abuse several meta trends, and turns many powerful mons into liabilities (see Druddigon, Hitmonlee, Sneasel), and if it can get 2 turns (which it often can), it can close out a game with like, very little support. Not too much else to say other than that this mon is super good atm, and breaks so many teams it ain't funny. (to be clear, talking about TR/NP)


Froslass: B+ => B/B-
Sneasel bait pure and simple, also really hates how easy defogging can be atm, with the influx of powerful new defoggers such as Whims, Alt, and Rotom (admittedly it beats all 1v1, but this ain't a mon with much longevity).


Skuntank: B=> C+/C
This mon is bad, like, its only real niche in the tier is combining Memento and Pursuit into one mon to support either of the Normal Type Win-conditions (Zangoose, Type:Null), and even then, the tier has a number of good memento users and good pursuit users, so unless your team is really pressed, it isn't needed. In terms of a defog role, the need to combine pursuit and defog is a tad lower now, and a special set doesn't beat the tier's rockers nearly as well as Alt or Whims. Its really hard to justify using this mon atm, and its ranking should reflect that.


Aurorus: B- = > C+
This mon is a relic of metas past, and while yes, it is probably the most reliable rocker in the tier, imo Omastar contributes more to HO thanks to Weak armor, and like, there's a reason its had basically 0 usage outside of one Hail HO team in the past 6 months.

Echoing a Ambipom rise: C=> C+
This mon is at least as good as cincc, and Fake out is actually incredibly useful atm, as its a very easy way of pressuring a ton of the tier's mons, ex. Emboar, Delphox, and Sneasel, all of which are at the least pressured by fake out (emboar takes the least at ~40% min), allowing it to be a potent tool when facing offense. Pursuit is also really cute vs Delphox. Basically, it has a few sets (pursuit, 4 attacks) that are all quite effective atm.

Echoing Incineroar rise to C+/B-, though like, don't bother mentioning bulk up, as set's like, really mediocre vs literally anything vs stall, and I haven't seen it do anything that a taunt/sd set cannot also do (bypassing unaware with power trip is nice, but like, taunt + stalling out counters does literally the same thing). Main reasons for rise are well, SD sets are incredibly effective at breaking through almost anything fat, and at the least, its probably the best mon in the tier at weakening grounds (literally everyone brings in seis vs it), and well, just generally it does a ton of nice stuff. Also please don't quote me on this, annoyed enough with the VR being spammed about incin as is.
 
#32
B+ --> A / A+

Arguably the best SD’er in the tier, amazing STAB moves being able to threaten a bunch of mons, Sucker Punch lets it deal with stuff like Delphox and Sigi, the NP set 6-0’s stall and revenges Klinklang and Houndoom, the list of positives goes on. It does struggle with Toad a lot but that problem can be handled easily. Golbat being non-existent is a blessing for Croak too. Amazing wallbreaker that finds plenty of setup opportunities, it’s time this thing rises. (Croak has been nommed to A- for months, don’t understand how it has been neglected all this time)

B+ --> A-

LO Medicham is actually insane lol. Bullet Punch makes up for it average speed and has the benefit of OHKOing Sneasel and heavily damaging Whimsicott. Slowbro, arguably one of its best checks, gets 2HKOed by Thunder Punch. Not to mention that its Psychic STAB manages to get around traditional Fighting checks like Garbodor and Vileplume. This mon definitely deserves to rise.

C+ --> B-

Togedemaru got Iron Head and Super Fang which make it 10 times better. Being able to chip 50% off Steelix and Seismitoad is huge for it and helps Pokemon like Klinklang a lot. Togedemaru is still a very good Whimsi and Rotom-Mow check and those 2 are almost on every team nowadays. The Scarf set, still fairly unexplored imo, is able to revengekill sneasel and whimsi whilst still checking Rotom-Mow (U-Turn does like 50 which is ok I guess).

UR --> C-
More of a silly fun nomination but the CB Last Resort set is a lot of fun to play with. 2HKOing Slowbro is something not every physical attacker can do. Ofc it sucks against offensive teams but it’s a meme after all.

Supporting:

--> A-

People know what it does now and play around it more efficiently. IMO a mon that needs like 2-3 mons to support it isn’t worthy of A+ and even if you support it well there’s quite a big chance it doesn’t end up doing what it wants.

--> B
SD is good and nothing really likes to switch into this. Being an offensive Phox check is also a nice trait.

EDIT: New drops and rises with the latest tier shifts have had a huge impact. Croak lost one of its biggest checks and has the asset of revengekilling Heliolisk with +2 Vacuum Wave so that can probably rise to A or even A+.
 
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#33


houndoom -> a-

houndoom has found itself to be one of and if the the best delphox checks we currently have. having the ability to come in safely 90% of the time and to pursuit trap it, doing about 70% (does about 90 if it's life orb), which is a huge plus for offensive teams that can function and work much more efficently thanks to delphox's absence i also believe doom should rise on the basis of it's choice scarf set, a lot of games scarf doom can easily clean by just clicking fire blast to clean up the opponents team, also crippling any common switch-ins with toxic such as seismitoad, emboar, slowking etc. also, bearing a fire immunity in todays meta can be saviour-like to a lot of teams, easily forimg fwg cores and punishing choice locked fire attackers.




charizard -> b- / b

charizard has always been somewhat overlooked and not really explored at all in sm / usm, but i believe it should rise on the basis of it's Z-Hold Hand set + 3 attacks set, being able to come in freely against some of the top mons in the tier (assuming rocks aren't up, which can be a major hold back to this mon but double defog is usually supported, dedicated spinner / defogger alongside some emergent support such as whimsi, scarf rotom etc) such as steelix, whimsicott, delphox dependant on what move its choice locked into, pursuit locked sneasel, emboar if not wild charge choice locked, hitmonlee etc. Additionally, after gaining +1 in all stats it's able to muscle past majority of tradiotional flying checks, like rhydon (hp grass), steelix, togedemaru and fire checks like toad, and can even beat jellicent and slowbro 1v1 after boosts.

here's replays to show how effective zhold hands charizard can be: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-686501771
 
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Sir Kay

What do you see up there?
is a Pre-Contributor
#34
1515818866323.png

B+ --> A

Seeing Croak in B+ is pretty much a crime. The mon is one of the best fighting type in NU right now. It has the ability to run a number of sets ranging from physical SD to special which both have their own checks and counters, and you can even run scarf which can catch a lot of people off guard. Its typing and ability will let it find a lot of ways to set up, and with Seismitoad leaving it lost one of its main checks. This mon should definitally move up a lot.



1515819000313.png

A --> A+

Klinklang is the best set up sweeper in the tier by far, and with Seismitoad leaving it like a lot of other mons finds a lot more freedom to do what it does. You even have a lot more innovation being used with this mon, with toxic and protect both finding ways onto its movepool which really gives this mon room to grow inside our meta more so then it already has. This is definitely going to turn into an even more meta driving powerhouse then it already is which is why it should be bumped up.



1515819145525.png

A- --> A+

Null is a beast. I think more now people are catching on to how good it is, between the SD ID sets just having match ups where they auto win and the u-turn sets offering unmatched walling power and slow momentum in the tier to a degree that's just insane. The bulk on this mon is unrivaled and its honestly one of the best walls/ win conditions the tier has to offer right now. Its the back bone to balance right now.



1515819401957.png
(Totom, it's better then regular).
A- --> A

I haven't seen a lot of other people talking about Vikavolt or using it, but within my testing its been ridiculously slept on. People just aren't prepping for it anymore in building. The most people have for it is Null, but that isn't going to stop you from spamming Volt Switch. Due to its typing and bulk it will find ways to offensively switch in to a lot of attackers right now which gives it a lot of usability inside a match. With totom being a thing now it even switches in on Steelix better given you take a bit more then 10% less from Heavy Slam. This in my testing has been one of the best wall breakers in the meta and I highly recommend people give it a shot, its pretty cool.
 
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Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
#35
to B+
This Pokémon is not wavy right now, especially with the new drops. With the addition of Heliolisk and Venusaur, Samurott faces two more checks, which makes this Pokémon harder to use. Not only that, but Toxicroak being better now also doesn’t really help, due to its Dry Skin ability. Basically, the new drops make Samurott worse, and combined with the usage of already existing checks, make Samurott a worthy contender for a B+ ranking.
 
#36
I've been playing a lot of NU recently and I wanted to add to the discussion :)

Regirock: C+ to B

This mon is excellent right now. With it's massive physical bulk and solid special bulk, this mon is almost always able to get up rocks and set up sun for sun teams, and sometimes even use explosion in the cycle. Being a Sneasel check, a check to strong offensive fire types like Delphox, Incineroar, and Houndoom, being a reliable weather and hazard setter with the ability to do nice amounts of damage really makes this mon great right now. Also, Seismitoad leaving really helps Regirock out, and Venusaur and Heliolisk are great teammates for Regirock since they take care of most of it's weaknesses. Overall a really slept on pokemon right now and I expect to see an increase in usage of Regirock and maybe even become NU.

Lord Helix: B to B+/A-

There really isn't any excuse for this mon still being in B rank. It does metric tons of damage after shell smash and is very hard to switch into. Again, like Regirock, benefits substantially from Seismitoad leaving, and quite hard to wall, although it has to watch out for Vileplume and Venusaur, the formet it can outspeed and destroy with Ice beam, but it cannot against Venusaur under sun. Water and Rock Stab is also excellent against top threats like Delphox, Emboar, Braviary, Sneasel and Vanilluxe. It really should have rose a long time ago, and this rise is definitely warranted and overdue, and kind of needs to happen next update.

I agree with a Samurott drop, Toxicroak rise and vikavolt rose as no more Seismitoad, I disagree however with a Charizard rise. Sure, Z-hold hand is a neat set, but really not much has changed for it, and rock types like Regirock are rising in usage.
 
#37
LordHelix: B to B+/A-

There really isn't any excuse for this mon still being in B rank. It does metric tons of damage after shell smash and is very hard to switch into. Again, like Regirock, benefits substantially from Seismitoad leaving, and quite hard to wall, although it has to watch out for Vileplume and Venusaur, the formet it can outspeed and destroy with Ice beam, but it cannot against Venusaur under sun. Water and Rock Stab is also excellent against top threats like Delphox, Emboar, Braviary, Sneasel and Vanilluxe. It really should have rose a long time ago, and this rise is definitely warranted and overdue, and kind of needs to happen next update
I disagree with this nomination. It's good but not B+ good. It has difficulty setting up turn 1 vs hazard setters like defensive drugg with glare, rising star Qwilfish who usually carries thunderwave, Garb who I'm pretty sure still carries seed bomb a good amount of the time, and faces 50/50 where's it's forced to predict whether rhydon or steelix will switch out or hit on a predicted setup. Outside of leading, it finds very few opportunities to set up with it's typing, around half of S to A- OHKO it.
 
#38
-> A
Steelix should rise up, it sees less competition as a ground type now since Seismitoad rose up, it's also really good as a Klinklang check, and one of the only, though it has always been. It's still an effective rocks setter as ever and a very threatening sweeper with Curse, which some people seem to forget about.

--> A disagree
While Vikavolt is not bad or anything, the recent introduction of Heliolisk has given it a lot of competition as an electric type, Heliolisk is faster, and has a better dual STAB combination which ultimately makes it a better choice for most teams.
 
#39
Magmortar: B to B+

Magmortar (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
Mild Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast

AV Magmortar is in a very good spot right now. It counters many special attackers in the tier; most notably Fire-types, Whimsicott and Vanilluxe. Thanks to Vital Spirit, it also makes an amazing blanket check to Sleep powder users such as Vileplume, Vivillion or the newly-dropped Venusaur (it has to watch out for Earthquake though).
Due to Seismitoad leaving the tier, it can afford to ditch HP [Grass] in favor of Fighting-type coverage (Focus Blast, though Cross Chop might also be viable in some situations) to beat Guzzlord and deal good damage to Type:Null; and better hazard control in the tier can cover for its weakness to Stealth Rock a bit better.
Thanks to its wide movepool, good Special Attack and decent speed, it is quite difficult to switch into; and while it has some issues these can be covered more easily than the B rank gives it credit for, which is why I'd advocate for the rise to B+.
 

Jarii

formerly boring
#40

A- --> B-/C+ (Even D if real)
Basicly no reason to use over Venusaur besides Strength Sap which isn't good a good move on Vileplume anyway, Venusaur has a better movepool (has Earthquake and Knock Off what Vileplume doesn't have), bulk and speed. Even as a sun abuser it's worse then Venusaur, so i can make a huge post about this mon but it's basicly Venusaur is just better.


C --> B/B+
Incineroar has alot of usage lately in high tournament battles such as SPL and NUL, and despite if the player won the game or not Incineroar did it's job. SD is an insanely good balance breaker with Incinium Z, solid answer to the best Fire type in NU right now which is Delphox (better then Houndoom checks it). Able to OHKO Slowbro with a +2 Incinium Z which is huge. Basicly it's still not that good but certainly better then people give it credit to.
 
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#41
C+ --> B-/B

With Venu and especially Heliolisk dropping this mon should get a little bit more attention as it counters Heliolisk (without FBlast or HP Ground) quiet well and its the only viable mon which really prevents it from voltswitching. Also it checks offensive Venus (without EQ) and can pivot on defensive variants.

(I know it was already nominated but it was before the tiershifts happened)

Also i want to agree with
--> A+,
--> A,
--> A,
--> B/B+,
--> A-,
--> B+,
--> B-/C+
 
#42
C+ --> B-/B

With Venu and especially Heliolisk dropping this mon should get a little bit more attention as it counters Heliolisk (without FBlast or HP Ground) quiet well and its the only viable mon which really prevents it from voltswitching. Also it checks offensive Venus (without EQ) and can pivot on defensive variants.

(I know it was already nominated but it was before the tiershifts happened)

Also i want to agree with
--> A+,
--> A,
--> A,
--> B/B+,
--> A-,
--> B+,
--> B-/C+
Yeah, I just have to agree with Samurott dropping. It's in a terrible spot right now with all the Venusaurs and Heliolisks running around. I agree with all of the other nominations above except Type: Null. What changed for it? Fighting types are still everywhere and tbh i think there is a reason it is still PU and not NU yet. Keep it where it is.
 

Eternally

quack
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#43
Hi everyone! After waiting a little while for the meta to settle after the tier shift, the VR council got together and voted on a massive revamp of every single Pokemon currently ranked, here are the results:

Rises:
Klinklang: A -> A+
Slowbro: A -> A+
Steelix: A- -> A
TypeNull: A- -> A+
Vivillon: A- -> A
Medicham: B+ -> A-
Rhydon: B+ -> A-
Toxicroak: B+ -> A
Altaria: B -> B+
Pyukumuku: B- -> B
Absol: C+ -> B-
Charizard: C+ -> B-
Cinccino: C+ -> B-
Gallade: C+ -> B-
Togedemaru: C+ -> B
Articuno: C -> C+
Gastrodon: C -> B-
Golbat: C -> C+
Incineroar: C -> C+
Minior: C- -> C

Drops:
Whimsicott: S -> A+
Druddigon: A+ -> A
Xatu: A+ -> A
Zangoose: A+ -> A-
Garbodor: A -> A-
Braviary: A- -> B+
Mismagius: A- -> B+
Piloswine: A- -> B+
Hitmonlee: A- -> B+
Samurott: A- -> B
Vileplume: A- -> C+
Froslass: B+ -> C+
Mesprit: B+ -> B
Passimian: B+ -> B
Vaporeon: B+ -> B
Jellicent: B -> C+
Skuntank: B -> C
Aurorus: B- -> C+
Granbull: B- -> C
Raticate-Alola: B- -> C
Sawk: B- -> C
Spiritomb: B- -> C+
Drampa: C+ -> C
Jynx: C+ -> C
Lilligant: C+ -> C
Pinsir: C+ -> C-
Tauros: C+ -> C-
Abomasnow: C -> C-
Ambipom: C -> C-
Archeops: C -> UR
Kangaskhan: C -> UR
Turtonator: C -> UR
Weezing: C -> UR
Regice: C -> UR
Mudsdale: C- -> UR
Silvally Ghost: C- -> UR

New Pokemon:
Dugtrio: UR -> B-
Heliolisk: UR -> S
Venusaur: UR -> A+
Smeargle: UR -> C+
Torkoal: UR -> C-
Gurdurr: UR -> C-
Lycanroc: UR -> C-
Crabominable: UR -> C+


Most of these are fairly self-explanatory, but here's some reasoning for the most relevant changes.

Heliolisk to S: Heliolisk has made a huge splash in NU since we received it in the last tier shift. It's one of the deadliest offensive Pokemon in the tier with perfect coverage, a good speed tier, great power, and even some defensive qualities that set it apart from other offensive threats. Heliolisk's influence has already shown a great deal of influence on teambuilding in every style of play from balance to offense, with Pokemon such as Mega Audino, Gastrodon, Type:Null, and Gourgeist-XL becoming even more popular.

Whimsicott down to A+: Whimsicott has become hugely prepared for in the current metagame due to it's longterm dominance over the past few months, with Pokemon such as Delphox, Type:Null, Togedemaru, Mega Audino, Vileplume, Silvally-Steel, and Klinklang being extremely common in order to keep it at bay. Because of this, Whimsicott can often struggle to do much early on in games and it just doesn't have the same level of effectiveness that it once had to stand alongside the other S rank Pokemon.

Venusaur to A+: Venusaur is another highly influential drop that we recieved from the tier shift, and it has already proven to be one of the best Pokemon in the tier due to a combination of fantastic sets ranging from Defensive, Specially Defensive, Sun Sweeper, Offensive, and Z-Celebrate. We decided not to place Venusaur in S because although it's very good, each of its sets can be dealt with relatively well without having to prepare too specifically for it. It's definitely a contender for S in the future, but for now it just doesn't quite reach the impact of the top dogs in the tier.


I've got a couple discussion points that I'd like the thread to focus on for now, considering that there were split opinions on these among the VR Council:

Code:
Discussion Slate:
Klinklang: A+ -> S
Virizion: A -> A-
Vikavolt: A- -> B+
That's all for now, let's get some good discussion going.
 
#44

Klinklang: A+ to S: Agree

Klinklang definitely appreciates the departure of Seismitoad, its best switch-in outside of Steelix, which is fairly easy to wear down due to entry hazards and it being relied on to stomach other hits. Access to Shift Gear allows it to turn entire games around in just one turn due to it being able to outpace the entire unboosted metagame after just one, and even some of the boosted metagame, and a big part of what makes it so threatening is how easily it can find a chance to set up. Cryogonal, Sneasel locked into Pursuit, Venusaur, and Whimsicott are just a few examples of Pokemon that Klinklang forces out and can set up on due to its decent bulk and defensive typing, and it has room for unpredictability with moves such as Magnet Rise, Protect, Toxic, and Wild Charge, each allowing it to get the better of another one of its checks. Klinklang is one of the best Pokemon in the tier, along with one of the most consistently threatening, and I think it deserves a rise to reflect this.
 
Last edited:
#45
Great update that reflects on the current meta very well :blobuwu:

Discussion slate

-> S
Agree
Klinklang should definitely rise to S as the rise of Seismitoad has made it lose one of if not its best check(s), it doesn't have many switch-ins besides Steelix, which can be worn down throughout the match. Klinklang also benefits of the introduction of Venusaur as Venusaur can't do much to it at all and is just set up bait. It's also relatively versatile as it can choose between a number of different moves in Substitute, Magnet Rise, and Toxic, which only makes it better due to its unpredictability. Klinklang is a force to be reckoned with and resembles the current meta very well.

-> A-
Agree
I feel that Virizion should definitely drop, it's very hard for it to consistently sweep teams as Scarf Delphox, Scarf Emboar, Whimsicott, and Sneasel are all very common and can all beat it. The introduction of Venusaur is also something bad for it, though to a lesser extent, as Venusaur can snack a +2 Continental Crush if it is physically defensive, meaning that Virizion has to waste its Continental Crush on Venusaur to even have a small chance of beating it. Virizion has also started seeing a lot more competition from other Fighting-types like Toxicroak and Medicham, which are very useful in their own respective rights and more consistent overall.

-> B+
Agree
I don't think Vikavolt is bad but it's heavily eclipsed by Heliolisk and its ranking should definitely reflect on that. Vikavolt does luckily have quite a few things going for it that Heliolisk doesn't however, it has Bug-type STAB which is still decent, Levitate which allows it to pivot into Ground-type attacks, and bulk, which allows it to live quite a few hits, which Heliolisk doesn't as it's prone to get worn down. These are some reasons why I think that Vikavolt is still good, and shouldn't fall any further then B+.

Now for my own nom

-> a place far from here (unrank)
Palossand is truly terrible, it got a lot of hype at first due to it getting access to Stealth Rock, and despite me writing Palossand's analysis I would like to say that it is extremely bad. The main selling point to using Palossand is role compression, though it doesn't even do this that well as it cant even block Cryogonal from spinning nor most Defoggers from Defogging, which is quite sad, especially for a Stealth Rock setter. Its main niche is to be a rocks setter that can spinblock, though it can't even do it well. Its only actual niche is being capable of switching into the many Fighting-types, which a lot Pokemon can do so that isn't worth much either.

Nominations that I'd like to echo, still

-> B-
Though Incineroar did rise up with this update I do think it can go one rank higher for the exact same reasons mentioned before.
 
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#46
Great update that reflects on the current meta very well :blobuwu:

Discussion slate

-> S
Agree
Klinklang should definitely rise to S as the rise of Seismitoad has made it lose one of if not its best check(s), it doesn't have many switch-ins besides Steelix, which can be worn down throughout the match. Klinklang also benefits of the introduction of Venusaur as Venusaur can't do much to it at all and is just set up bait. It's also relatively versatile as it can choose between a number of different moves in Substitute, Magnet Rise, and Toxic, which only makes it better due to its unpredictability. Klinklang is a force to be reckoned with and resembles the current meta very well.

-> A-
Agree
I feel that Virizion should definitely drop, it's very hard for it to consistently sweep teams as Scarf Delphox, Scarf Emboar, Whimsicott, and Sneasel are all very common and can all beat it. The introduction of Venusaur is also something bad for it, though to a lesser extent, as Venusaur can snack a +2 Continental Crush if it is physically defensive, meaning that Virizion has to waste its Continental Crush on Venusaur to even have a small chance of beating it. Virizion has also started seeing a lot more competition from other Fighting-types like Toxicroak and Medicham, which are very useful in their own respective rights and more consistent overall.

-> B+
Agree
I don't think Vikavolt is bad but it's heavily eclipsed by Heliolisk and its ranking should definitely reflect on that. Vikavolt does luckily have quite a few things going for it that Heliolisk doesn't however, it has Bug-type STAB which is still decent, Levitate which allows it to pivot into Ground-type attacks, and bulk, which allows it to live quite a few hits, which Heliolisk doesn't as it's prone to get worn down. These are some reasons why I think that Vikavolt is still good, and shouldn't fall any further then B+.

Now for my own nom

-> a place far from here (unrank)
Palossand is truly terrible, it got a lot of hype at first due to it getting access to Stealth Rock, and despite me writing Palossand's analysis I would like to say that it is extremely bad. The main selling point to using Palossand is role compression, though it doesn't even do this that well as it cant even block Cryogonal from spinning nor most Defoggers from Defogging, which is quite sad, especially for a Stealth Rock setter. Its main niche is to be a rocks setter that can spinblock, though it can't even do it well. Its only actual niche is being capable of switching into the many Fighting-types, which a lot Pokemon can do so that isn't worth much either.

Nominations that I'd like to echo, still

-> B-
Though Incineroar did rise up with this update I do think it can go one rank higher for the exact same reasons mentioned before.
I agree with everything above. Klingklang is a Complete menace right now able to sweep and win games by itself. Vikavolt and Virizion both struggle with new threats like Heliolisk outclassing vikavolt and Virizion can't really deal with Venusaur. Incineroar could and prolly go to B- because SD Incineroar is really scary right now and sees good amount of usage in tours
 
#47
1516322672989.png
A+ -> S
I disagree with this nomination. I have no doubts in my mind that Klinklang is one of the top 5 or so Pokemon, but it simply isn't on par with the current S-rank. As it stands, Klinklang finds itself checked or countered by a few rather prominent Pokemon:

1516322901001.png

Emboar can take up to a +2 Return from full, and clearly OHKO with either of its STAB moves. Emboar is of course prone to be wittled throughout the battle from Flare Blitz recoil; therefore, it is not a great offensive check.

1516323061313.png

Slowbro easily takes on all common variants of Klinklang; Slowbro takes little from +1 Return, being 4-hit KO'd with no prior damage, while Scald can 3-hit KO or potentially burn. I suppose z-Wild Charge Klinklang is a possibility, but is very uncommon and typically a waste of a z-Move slot. Klinklang would rather run Steelium-Z OR have a teammate be the z-Move user.

1516323201215.png

While Klinklang can potentially use Steelix as set-up fodder through its access to Magnet Rise, Steelix can Roar Klinklang out. Obviously, this is not effective at all if last mon Klinklang, though I have generally found Magnet Rise not as common as Substitute. Steelix is also rather easy to chip away at, given it relies solely on Leftovers for health recovery. Steelix also being a common answer to many other Pokemon causes it to potentially be a rather shaky answer come late-game where Klinklang shines.

1516323438630.png

Since Togedemaru has access to Super Fang now, it can semi-reliably beat Klinklang 1v1. Zing Zap guaranteed breaks Substitute, and Spiky Shield mind-games exist, I guess.

1516323947578.png

Jellicent is by no means in a great place in NU, but I can't ignore it checking non-Wild Charge Klinklang. I guess.

None of these Pokemon are exactly uncommon either; we aren't looking at Klinklang forcing teams to run meme sets or meme Pokemon, so it isn't as if Klinklang is a Pokemon difficult to prepare for. Plus, I haven't viewed any great changes in the meta which benefit Klinklang a whole lot ignoring Seismitoad disappearing, which I am sure the initial rise to A+ covers a good amount. Overall, while Klinklang is one of the tier's best set-up sweepers, being able to work around some of its defensive checks through moves such as Magnet Rise and z-Wild Charge; however, seeing as how these moves are not very commonly run, Klinklang ends up unable to break through the Pokemon.

also give ice cream cone S back because he's been a good boy :(
 
#48
Love the VR update but a few changes (also why Absol? However I haven't tinkered with it)

Exeggutor-Alola
B => B-/C+
Our good ol' tree is a shell of its former self. Ranked B way before the days of Mega-Audino was a thing and now that Aromatisse has pretty much overtaken its spot as the best OTR mon in the tier, it's only got a stronger STAB (worse coverage however) but without a set up move or as good as a defensive typing while setting up the room. Coupled that and the ability to get freshly killed by the now S-rank Sneasel in TR and we can see it's fallen from grace.

Froslass
C+ => B-/B
While it has a shitty matchup vs Sneasel, this gets plenty of free spikes/taunts(/even D-bonds are tricky to play around) against many slower bulkier builds. Pretty much any Cryogonal/Altaria/Xatu/Articuno balance/stall struggles to effectively stop it from spiking up except if Sneasel gets in. Like even when against Sivally-Steel or smth, won't kill and gets taunted if it ever tries to fog away. Definitely not C+ material imo.

Scrafty
B => B-/C+ (I really want this lower but others can chime in)
I really try not to view this as a low ladder meme but it seems like it cannot pull off a sweep nearly as consistently as other set up mons like Klinklang or Toxicroak and it cannot hold its own in a meta where if non z-iron tail, invites a free Aromatisse sweep in return and if iron tail, misses out on recovery or high burst damage with a worse generalist z crystal. It's always just been a lackluster mon in my eyes as it simply CANNOT break the most prominent wall in Mega-Audino while gets cleanly 2HKO'd not to mention stuff like Whimsicott and Scarf Dazzling Gleam Delphox have always been around. And anything involving shed skin & rest is a MEME

Sandslash-Alola
UR => C/C+
Sandslash has been (kinda) officially free! I think we've all see the good ol' Z+V1 hail HO or variations of hail HO in general and this thing is a lot harder to wall/outspeed than one would imagine. After an SD, it can crush pretty much most defensive cores (think about it, even the super fat physdef mons like Steelix/Rhydon/Regirock get chipped hard by hail as is and can be brought into +2 EQ range) and is excellent against both of the BIG drops in Venusaur and Heliolisk being able to cleanly KO both. I'd argue it's more consistent than Ludicolo due to hail itself being a simply more consistent style with an auto setter of its own and walled a bit more across the board.

Typhlosion
B- => C+/C
Typhlosion hits hard and that's about it. It's very difficult to keep it at an effective health range throughout the course of a battle to justify this over options. Stealth Rock? Well now it's essentially a worse Delphox. They have a healthy fire check? Well shit not like it has secondary STABs. It can't even stay in against mons that it can kill but outspeed and do a chunk to itself. And with Altaria graciously flying about, it can't hope to ever break that (I guess you can choice lock yourself into HP ice on the switch but how good does specs HP ice sound against Klinklang or Aromatisse). Something like Fightinium Z Magmortar that serves a similar role can bluff A-vest and still take special hits if need be while Typhlosion is extremely high maintenance and has only one set.

Virizion
Stay where it is
I feel like the last person to argue for Virizion however people are undermining the fact that this really annoys several balances especially ones that revolve around Heliolisk breaking and overestimate how well Venu can take a +2 Cont Crush (like cmon it does like 68% min and almost dies after rocks after a high roll while sludge bomb isn't a be all end to it either all doing like 48-57%). Xatu/Garbodor is being played less and this forces Type:Null right back into the ball. Now obviously it will struggle against Druddigon and forced out by stuff like Scarfboar but it should retain its position not really as a pure breaker but a mid/late-game sweep mon with many decent set up opportunities.
 

Jarii

formerly boring
#49
-> S Disagree
I highly disagree with this because of a couple of reasons:
1. Steelix and Slowbro just rised in popularity and in the VR itself, you also can't beat steelix if it's low with Magnet Rise because Curse Steelix is rising in popularity as well.
2. It has it's offensive checks which two of those are in S rank itself (Delphox and Emboar), more Fire popularity with Incineroar and houndoom which hurts it as well.
3. People say it sets up on venu which is not true because the last moveslot is either Earthquake, Sleep Powder or HP Fire. Which all are able to beat Klinklang in some way.
4. People keep saying this set beats this and this set beats this etc. etc. Like that isn't wrong but Klinklang can't do everything in one, so it still needs support, from that support you're 9 out of 10 times able to see what it's running. Do you not see a reliable Slowbro counter you can probably guess it's Toxic or Z-Wild Charge etc.
These factors are enough for me to say it isn't S worthy.



-> B+ Agree
Vikavolt has issues with how the meta is right now, almost every team has either a heavy hitter that is able to hit it. Fire types everywhere and what hurts the most is that almost every check to Whimsicott is also a Vikavolt check (Mega Audino, Type:Null etc.). It's speed tier is just god awful and well if you want a heavy Electric type hitter your best choice is probably Heliolisk.

My own nom:
UR --> C/C-

This is actually a really decent wallbreaker now Seismitoad is gone, Seis was it's main defensive counter. Steel/Rock is really hard to resist and there are only a few mons that resist that STAB (Mainly Steelix) which can get destroyed by Superpower. Head Smash BP 150 without recoil and STAB with a base 110 ATK is really nothing to mess with.
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 243-286 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 462-546 (114.3 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Superpower vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 208-246 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur: 378-445 (104.1 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Here is a replay how well it can do: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-628784336
 
#50
Virizion A>A- agree:
It has much worse matchups against the tiers most prominent mons than the other fighting types. It loses to Sneasel, Whimsicott, and band Emboar unless it's using continental crush, where others like Toxicroak or Medicham would not a good majority of the time. It's completely helpless versus walls like Maudino and the elusive Venusaur wall where three other fighting types in Medicham, Toxicroak, and band Emboar would not be. Sure it has swords dance, but why would I use something that breaks after an SD when there are breakers like Toxicroak with swords dance who don't even need to swords dance to be effective half the time. It was good in a meta where faces like Rotom-C, Sceptile, and Vikavolt were everywhere and it'd come in and take hits for days, but that's a meta past.
 

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