Resource USUM NU Viability Rankings (Old)

[Modulo]

Tend to agree with Moron5's noms, with the possible exception of Pinsir.

Pinsir is a mon that hasn't been experimented with enough in the NU context and has a bunch of potential. Having a Bug-type STAB cannot be that bad in a Slowbro-dominated metagame, and it has the movepool to cover for anything that resists it (except for Fairies, but the most common one is M-Aud which Pinsir can at least force to mega-evolve and potentially set up on).
While I agree that the Mold Breaker Rocks set might not be good enough, its niche lies in Swords Dance (which can dismantle BroLix cores while outspeeding a decent portion of the metagame) or Moxie Scarf.

 

[Finchinator]

Just a brief response to one of the proposed changes on the page above from a post yesterday. Don’t mean to go too far into it on a generally irrelevant Pokemon.

Don’t unrank Pinsir. It is extremely niche, but the Mold Breaker SR SD set is still semi-consistent in doing what it does — getting SR up reliably and nabbing a kill on something that doesn’t expect it.

Generally, the way to go is Mold Breaker, SR SD EQ X-Scissor, Groundium. This allows you to straight up kill common Stralth Rockers such as Steelix and Rhydon af +2 as well as a plethora of other things that seem to check Pinsir even with a boost under its belt. Stealth Rocks with Mold Breaker prove to be very important for this set as this let’s you pressure Xatu stall and balance from the get-go. Additionally, strong early-game offensive presence and the ability to catch Rotom with EQ, Garbodor with Z-EQ, and pretty much any other form of hazard setup or removal in the tier in some capacity allows for Pinsir to dominate the early game of some match-ups when it comes to hazard management and tempo.

The reason why it is so uncommon is simply because of an absolute lack of defensive presence, making it a liability on common team archetypes relative to compeeting SR setters, and the fact that it isn’t fully explored (the whole archetype of HO actually is, in my opinion, which is where Pinsir fits best currently). I’ll never be too high on Pinsir as it is better in theory than practice, admittedly, but it is easily worth being ranked going into the future, in my opinion.

 

[Rabia]

C- -> C
I like Torterra because it can pressure common Stealth Rock setters by virtue of its Ground- and Grass-type STABs, is a Stealth Rocker that isn't fucking Steelix, and checks Heliolisk (+ Rotom-N) pretty reliably. Having access to self-recovery in the form of Synthesis is also pretty neat given it allows Torterra to continuously check what it needs to.

Torterra does still struggle with Pokemon like Sneasel, Delphox, and Ice Cream still being really good, as well as Houndoom and Incineroar being on the rise, but I think moving one sub-rank up is fair given what else is in C.

 

[poh]

--> Lower

Looks like i'm the only one so far disagreeing with a Mega-Audino rise. This mon isn't S in a million years and here's why. It mostly fits on very fat balance / stall, which isn't an issue, but it's just a very awkward pick on the other playstyles. Not to mention that those other playstyles are way easier to work with atm. This leads to the fact that Audino isn't splashable at all (a very important attribute for an S rank mon). Audino gives your opponent too many free turns to dangerous wallbreakers like Incineroar, Toxicroak, Virizion etc. We have lots of other defensive mons that aren't passive like Audino such as spdef Venu, Rhydon, Slowbrothers etc. The meta isn't kind to it at all and SPL usage reflects this very well:

SPL Usage

Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
Audino | 3 | 4.29 % | 33.33% |

--> A-

Aromatisse is a very underrated sweeper and completely dismantles team without a good Fairy resist. +2 Moonblast / Twinkle Tackle hurts like a truck and not a lot of mons like to switch in on it. Its typing helps it find plenty of set up opportunities and offensively Fairy is just a very good typing. Iapapa Berry is a good alternative if you already have another Z-move user and ofc improves its longevity


Agreeing with:

--> Lower

--> UR

--> A+

--> S

--> A+

--> A+

--> S

--> A+

--> B+

--> B-

--> UR

--> B (should've dropped a while ago)

 

[quziel]

Yo, nomming up two fun mons:

Garbodor: A- => A_ (or maybe A+)
Ok, so I know this mon moved down somewhat recently, but the offensive set, shown below, can do amazing work atm, and is a very consistent switchin for both Audino-Mega and Venusaur.

Garbodor @ Toxic Plate
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Spikes
- Stomping Tantrum
- Explosion

The inclusion of Stomping Tantrum is a bit weird, but hey, needed to not be setup bait for Klinklang. Basically, the reason you use this is because it outspeeds and deals massive damage to basically any Venu set, while trivially forcing out Audino-Mega, and 2hkoing Xatu wth Gunk shot. This means that it can be a very potent tool vs stall, as they have to predict your play very well, as otherwise they either lose Xatu, or let you get up Spikes for free, which can enable you to play very effectively vs them. Like, having an offensive check for Venusaur that doesn't have to worry about Sludge Bomb 2hkoing it (though leaf storm does) is incredibly useful in the current meta, while also coming in and shitting on Maud. The emergence of Scarf Garbodor as a semi-viable option is also really cute, though really isn't the main reason behind this.

TL:DR:
-Good check to Venusaur and Mega-Audino
-Wide variety of sets
-Can spike up after killing Xatu

Huntail: UR => C_
Huntail @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Sucker Punch
- Waterfall
- Crunch / Return

Ok, so this mon is a tad weirder, but it does really cool stuff like setting up on both Sneasel and Slowbro (provided you can deal with getting Toxic'd), while also being a "slow" shell smasher that beats Delphox, which is just really cute atm. It has enough speed to beat Scarf Base 80s such as Braviary and Venusaur, which would normally revenge kill its competition (see Omastar (killed by phox), Carracosta (way slow)), and thanks to access to Darkium-z, it can bypass certain normal checks such as Slowbro, which is easily OHKO'd by a +2 Z-Crunch, and is OHKO'd after rocks by a +2 Z-Sucker Punch if you choose to run return last slot. I note that this mon has exceptional synergy with Spike Setters such as Garbodor, as they can often provide both Setup Opportunities, as well as pushing some of its harder checks, such as Vileplume and Toxicroak, into OHKO range, or you could just chip them.

Calcs:

Offensive:
Z-Crunch: +2 252 Atk Huntail Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 402-474 (102 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Z-Sucker: +2 252 Atk Huntail Black Hole Eclipse (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 352-416 (89.3 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Z-Crunch: +2 252 Atk Huntail Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 238-281 (67.2 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Z-Crunch: +2 252 Atk Huntail Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 212-249 (69 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The dark moves do half damage vs Colbur Bro, do the maths yourself.
Defensive:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Huntail: 124-147 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-707235092

Sorry, didn't get more, but trust, it did well in testing, and I know the above isn't a perfect example of the mon. I can get more if people need more.

TL:DR:
-Sets up on Sneasel and to some extent Slowbro
-Sucker Punch lets it OHKO the most relevant faster Scarfer
-Water/Dark is cute coverage, and resists are put into OHKO range by Hazards (barring Guzzlord).
-Option to run Frustration to get perfect neutral coverage, though gives up a guaranteed OHKO on non-colbur Bro.

 

[Venomben]

Hiya boys n girls, I haven't been super active on the forums like, ever, but here's my attempt to at least justify a few different 'mons for ranking and also throw my own two cents into the general collective.

Some basic facts before hand:
1) With Emboar leaving the meta, this has left a gap in physical presence and fire type presence leading to the rise in popularity and usage of certain mons, both offensively (incineroar for example) and defensively (like venusaur)

2) Pokemon that used to check Emboar no longer have that function of soft checking the best pokemon in the meta, and therefore their overall import has been reduced

3) a balanced meta has created a new scene for some monsters to absol-lutely thrive (I like puns).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Delphox: S --> A
Yeah, I said, not A+, A. The truth is, Delphox's role as a soft check to Emboar has been diminished, and with Incineroar climbing the usage charts, Delphox simply does not hold the same presence it used to. Scarf sets still get obliterated by pursuit trappers, it still struggles with bulky rock types, and pokemon like AV Slowking also work to shut it down pretty well. I certainly don't believe it should be an S rank, but the fact that it does not succeed against two other major considerations for that same rank and is relatively frail should a special defensive mon step up, I believe it should drop -- drastically.

Venusaur: A+ --> S
Ok, ok. I know I just said Delphox lost a ton of usage and Venu happens to be a mon who is really good who phox beats, but come on, the splashability of the infinite(ish) sets of Venusaur, its general bulk, strength against fighting types (which are extremely prevalent in the current meta) and general consistency in performance demands that Venusaur be moved up. Pretty much any team has to gameplan for it, and with a limited amount of checks, certain partnerships and predictions are born. Venu precipitated a massive change in the meta, especially with Emboar's disappearance and the relative strength of Heliolisk appearing. If you don't believe me, ladder 3x and tell me you don't find a Venusaur.

Heliolisk: S --> A+
Heliolisk is a threatening pokemon, don't get me wrong. The thing is, its an awkward fit on most teams, and its fighting weakness is devastating in the current meta. Scarf passimian/medicham are very strong and demand a switch out and if lisk runs scarf itself, it becomes subject to torment if it decides incorrectly. It is very frail and I personally don't like the typing. Idk, I just don't feel like anyone really runs it anymore, its performance is consistent but its very hard to match up on teams. It is threatening but avoidable, and can get chipped very easily.

(Quick comment: I don't really wanna touch on Maudino, all I can say is Venu and Toxicroak smoke the living shit out of it and it should not be an S rank pokemon, no matter how bulky you want to pretend it is)

Slowbro: A+ --> S
This shouldn't even be a question. Literally defines the damn checklist provided for an S rank mon aside from maybe being threatening, but even so, it basically defuses any physical pokemon. Calm Mind sets are super cute, assault vests exist (though honestly just run King), and the basic shit is like Slow poke tails... it never fails...

Golbat: C+ --> B
Yeah, name anything, I mean anything more annoying than Golbat. I gotta (reluctantly) agree with Quziel by stating that Golbat right now is a super cute mon. Sure, its dependent on eviolite and knock off sucks, but reliable recovery in roost, strong defense against poison, grass, and fighting types, and the ability to either 1) defog, 2) taunt, 3) toxic, or 4) super fang is obnoxious. infiltrator is a fun niche thing that kinda says F*ck you to Sub-Bulk Braviary and overall, its very interesting. I also like the U-turn variation for a voltturn core and it pairs nicely with stuff like rotom or better yet, sneasel. As far as threats are concerned, ice, electric, and psychic types are quite annoying but hey, isnts that what piloswine and steelix are for? Its just such a good pokemon that can be slapped on to a lot of teams early in the team building process that adds bulk and utility.

Hitmonlee: -- B+ --> A
I'm not sure how popular this opinion is going to be, especially with slowbro being god tier atm, but I will say this: scarf set is fun, normal gem unburden fakeout sweeper is funner. It takes care of helio and sneasel and is kinda just difficult to deal with. The main issue is the fact that medicham is a little better right now at doing lots of things and it gets some other competition with a stacked fighting type class. Still, its not entirely outclassed due to its threat level and speed tier.

Vivillion: A --> B
I just don't get why its ranked so high. There are so many weaknesses involved with it, from stealth rocks, to reliance on sleep and set up, to the fact that any physical priority move hurts real bad, to the fact that many popular scarfs and current threats outspeed it. I just don't think it should be even remotely close to the top of the tier.

Zangoose: A- --> Lower
I don't know where it should go, but why is it this high up? Not much bulk, loses to priority fighting attacks, not very common. Can you guys tell how complacent I am getting with my analysis yet?

Clawitzer: C+ --> B
So, I guess the biggest thing with Mr. Krabs over here is that he has no reliable recovery, but honestly, thats fine. Water types are super dangerous in this meta, and Clawitzer is no exception. I have found large amounts of success walling the shit out of the Slows and being able to DP them to oblivion and beyond. He is an interesting pokemon to use as a lead as well because of his type matchup and coverage moves. It practically gets free stab on a strong fighting and dark move with combined means not a lot can switch in. Now then, here's where things will get interesting. There is one typical set, the choice specs set, which is really useful for wallbreaking. Then, there is the life orb set that is dependent on trick room. Both have their issues, mainly being speed, susceptibility, and unreliability. However I have recently tested a lot of AV Claw and it works, like, really well. Remember how I said it beats up the Slows. Well, it also doesn't get hurt by them. The lack of commitment to a move like in a choice set means Claw can now do even more damage on teams in general, especially as a good chip pokemon. In addition, the extra bulk helps it absolutely absorb special attacks because of its natural bulk. Just going down the Viability Rankings it can switch into: Delphox, Slowbro, Vanilluxe, Steelix, Xatu, depending on whether you go IB or Sludge Wave Altaria, Guzzlord and Sigilyph, or Maudino and Aromatisse, and Houndoom. Thats a lot of really relevant pokemon. I can display the calcs later, I'm tired right now and its 11:00 pm.

Honorable considerations without explanation:

Medicham: A- --> A
Sceptile: A- --> B+
Whimsicott: A+ --> A
Toxicroak: A --> A+
Cradily: UR --> C/C-
Skuntank: C --> C+
Gastrodon: B- --> B
Cinccino: B- --> B
Mesprit: B --> B-

Ambipom UU --> NU

Please lmk your thoughts, I don't mind being roasted as long as its backed with evidence and please feel free to talk to me in the NU chat. I enjoy trying to think of new and innovative ways to use Pokemon to their max potential.

Also shoutout to CB Jose Altuve for the CB Sleeptalk Last Resort Komala, its nasty.

Thank you all and good night

 

[rhydonphilip]

Hiya boys n girls, I haven't been super active on the forums like, ever, but here's my attempt to at least justify a few different 'mons for ranking and also throw my own two cents into the general collective.

Some basic facts before hand:
1) With Emboar leaving the meta, this has left a gap in physical presence and fire type presence leading to the rise in popularity and usage of certain mons, both offensively (incineroar for example) and defensively (like venusaur)

2) Pokemon that used to check Emboar no longer have that function of soft checking the best pokemon in the meta, and therefore their overall import has been reduced

3) a balanced meta has created a new scene for some monsters to absol-lutely thrive (I like puns).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Delphox: S --> A
Yeah, I said, not A+, A. The truth is, Delphox's role as a soft check to Emboar has been diminished, and with Incineroar climbing the usage charts, Delphox simply does not hold the same presence it used to. Scarf sets still get obliterated by pursuit trappers, it still struggles with bulky rock types, and pokemon like AV Slowking also work to shut it down pretty well. I certainly don't believe it should be an S rank, but the fact that it does not succeed against two other major considerations for that same rank and is relatively frail should a special defensive mon step up, I believe it should drop -- drastically.

Venusaur: A+ --> S
Ok, ok. I know I just said Delphox lost a ton of usage and Venu happens to be a mon who is really good who phox beats, but come on, the splashability of the infinite(ish) sets of Venusaur, its general bulk, strength against fighting types (which are extremely prevalent in the current meta) and general consistency in performance demands that Venusaur be moved up. Pretty much any team has to gameplan for it, and with a limited amount of checks, certain partnerships and predictions are born. Venu precipitated a massive change in the meta, especially with Emboar's disappearance and the relative strength of Heliolisk appearing. If you don't believe me, ladder 3x and tell me you don't find a Venusaur.

Heliolisk: S --> A+
Heliolisk is a threatening pokemon, don't get me wrong. The thing is, its an awkward fit on most teams, and its fighting weakness is devastating in the current meta. Scarf passimian/medicham are very strong and demand a switch out and if lisk runs scarf itself, it becomes subject to torment if it decides incorrectly. It is very frail and I personally don't like the typing. Idk, I just don't feel like anyone really runs it anymore, its performance is consistent but its very hard to match up on teams. It is threatening but avoidable, and can get chipped very easily.

(Quick comment: I don't really wanna touch on Maudino, all I can say is Venu and Toxicroak smoke the living shit out of it and it should not be an S rank pokemon, no matter how bulky you want to pretend it is)

Slowbro: A+ --> S
This shouldn't even be a question. Literally defines the damn checklist provided for an S rank mon aside from maybe being threatening, but even so, it basically defuses any physical pokemon. Calm Mind sets are super cute, assault vests exist (though honestly just run King), and the basic shit is like Slow poke tails... it never fails...

Golbat: C+ --> B
Yeah, name anything, I mean anything more annoying than Golbat. I gotta (reluctantly) agree with Quziel by stating that Golbat right now is a super cute mon. Sure, its dependent on eviolite and knock off sucks, but reliable recovery in roost, strong defense against poison, grass, and fighting types, and the ability to either 1) defog, 2) taunt, 3) toxic, or 4) super fang is obnoxious. infiltrator is a fun niche thing that kinda says F*ck you to Sub-Bulk Braviary and overall, its very interesting. I also like the U-turn variation for a voltturn core and it pairs nicely with stuff like rotom or better yet, sneasel. As far as threats are concerned, ice, electric, and psychic types are quite annoying but hey, isnts that what piloswine and steelix are for? Its just such a good pokemon that can be slapped on to a lot of teams early in the team building process that adds bulk and utility.

Hitmonlee: -- B+ --> A
I'm not sure how popular this opinion is going to be, especially with slowbro being god tier atm, but I will say this: scarf set is fun, normal gem unburden fakeout sweeper is funner. It takes care of helio and sneasel and is kinda just difficult to deal with. The main issue is the fact that medicham is a little better right now at doing lots of things and it gets some other competition with a stacked fighting type class. Still, its not entirely outclassed due to its threat level and speed tier.

Vivillion: A --> B
I just don't get why its ranked so high. There are so many weaknesses involved with it, from stealth rocks, to reliance on sleep and set up, to the fact that any physical priority move hurts real bad, to the fact that many popular scarfs and current threats outspeed it. I just don't think it should be even remotely close to the top of the tier.

Zangoose: A- --> Lower
I don't know where it should go, but why is it this high up? Not much bulk, loses to priority fighting attacks, not very common. Can you guys tell how complacent I am getting with my analysis yet?

Clawitzer: C+ --> B
So, I guess the biggest thing with Mr. Krabs over here is that he has no reliable recovery, but honestly, thats fine. Water types are super dangerous in this meta, and Clawitzer is no exception. I have found large amounts of success walling the shit out of the Slows and being able to DP them to oblivion and beyond. He is an interesting pokemon to use as a lead as well because of his type matchup and coverage moves. It practically gets free stab on a strong fighting and dark move with combined means not a lot can switch in. Now then, here's where things will get interesting. There is one typical set, the choice specs set, which is really useful for wallbreaking. Then, there is the life orb set that is dependent on trick room. Both have their issues, mainly being speed, susceptibility, and unreliability. However I have recently tested a lot of AV Claw and it works, like, really well. Remember how I said it beats up the Slows. Well, it also doesn't get hurt by them. The lack of commitment to a move like in a choice set means Claw can now do even more damage on teams in general, especially as a good chip pokemon. In addition, the extra bulk helps it absolutely absorb special attacks because of its natural bulk. Just going down the Viability Rankings it can switch into: Delphox, Slowbro, Vanilluxe, Steelix, Xatu, depending on whether you go IB or Sludge Wave Altaria, Guzzlord and Sigilyph, or Maudino and Aromatisse, and Houndoom. Thats a lot of really relevant pokemon. I can display the calcs later, I'm tired right now and its 11:00 pm.

Honorable considerations without explanation:

Medicham: A- --> A
Sceptile: A- --> B+
Whimsicott: A+ --> A
Toxicroak: A --> A+
Cradily: UR --> C/C-
Skuntank: C --> C+
Gastrodon: B- --> B
Cinccino: B- --> B
Mesprit: B --> B-

Ambipom UU --> NU

Please lmk your thoughts, I don't mind being roasted as long as its backed with evidence and please feel free to talk to me in the NU chat. I enjoy trying to think of new and innovative ways to use Pokemon to their max potential.

Also shoutout to CB Jose Altuve for the CB Sleeptalk Last Resort Komala, its nasty.

Thank you all and good night

As much as I agree with most of the mentions it has some that seem very out of place;
Hitmonlee: -- B+ --> A Disagree
and Vivillion: A --> B Disagree

Hitmonlee for good reason hasn't been needed or as usefull ever since US/UM and the reasoning can be boiled down to Medicham not only doing most of what it does better but almost compleatly outclassing everything it does exept for Mach Punch and Rapid Spin. The last of which with US/UM's addition of defogers has simply gotten out of need for most people. While Hitmonlee isn't a bad spinner it's only an offensive spinner while most of our setters have enough durability to outlast it like Miltank, Drudd punishes the spinning and as much as I dislike Pallosand, people do use it to where it hitmonlee has to wory about not being able to actually spin vs it unlike Cryogonal who walls it to oblivion and back. Mach Punch is actually the only reason to use Hitmonlee over Medi in current meta alongside outspeeding the 80 bench + Toxicroak (not like it beats toxicroak 1v1 but whatev). Mach Punch however alongside still insanely powerfull fighting type strength(infact Adamant LO HJK does about the same as LO Medi's HJK) so it still has a middle ground of reasoning to be used, just not as consistenly much as before and I think the VR should represent this. You also mentioned Slowbro but while it's highly important a single 100% wall shouldn't suggest the mon can't do anything as we do have plenty of amazing pokemon who got better in current meta like Vikavolt, SD Incineroar and other pokemon who ease up your ability to break past it, from where they often don't have any answeres left. (Medi does this by itself but you often can still use a team mate for that).

Vivillon I am somewhat suprised with how most of the other mentions are made as it doesn't represent the way the mon works.
Vivillon is a consistent threat forcing the use of 90+ speed scarfers, powerfull priority(of which almost soly Medi's Bullet Punch, Sneasel's Ice Shard and Pilo's Ice shard come to mind as it subs vs any of our sucker punch users with very little prediction risk on their side) or more then 1 defensive answere(Lix, Rhydon if no e-ball over sub and AV King mind you M-audino isn't consistent at stopping it) as it can consistenly set up utilizing Sleep Powder, Substitude and reliably break past walls at +1 with Z-Hurricane. Rocks makes its use of Subsitude allot harder, thankfully everytime the vivillon user loses a mon they get to go into vivillon for free giving plenty of moments where it can be annoying. We kinda lack proper Volt-Turn pokemon to give it the opportunity which in my honest opinion is the most hindering thing to it. With the rise of Type: Null this easily philosophy has been less consistent but baring this one answere it may as well be one of the most consistent pokemon at being a threat in both teambuilding and face off even when prepaired for.

as for Zangoose, if you run into screen offense this will 100% sure be the bread and butter as Zangoose with US/UM got acces to Belly Drum which basically works like a Zigzagoon in LC or amped down Linoone in RU. To put it bluntly it can shred past the vast majority of teams simply because not much stops it after set up. Main issue it has is setting up as you are frail, only have a sitrus recovery for Belly Drum and need to always take out your opponent before it attacks you. This is where Rotom-N in current meta is an actual pain in it's bum. More often a simple Memento from Whimsi can medigate this to increase the list of potential set up mons but it still hasn't shown the biggest consistency unlike many other easier to support pokemon. This being said it's by far one of our best priority set up sweepers.

 

[Shadestep]

don't unrank Skuntank, its obviously not the best pursuiter but its definitely not unviable and i've used it to great success, you can swap it into Xatu, Rotom, etc way more easily than you can with Sneasel and you can also run Firium Z + Fire Blast to lure in Steelix for example. definitely not the best mon but its very versatile and can run a lot of different items like Life Orb, Z Moves, Protective Pads, etc.

I don't think either Delphox nor Heliolisk are worthy of their S-Rank position. They're good yeah, but not that good. The main problem with Heliolisk is that it's not splashable and very fragile. It really isn't easy to fit on many teamstyles and it needs a lot of support to really break holes.

Delphox's problem is its speed, honestly. Scarf sets are fast but are super easy to punish and take advantage of by either Pursuit-trapping it with Rhydon / Sneasel / Houndoom, or being set-up bait for oh so many sweepers in the tier. Other sets may be good vs fatter teams but are easily outsped and revengekilled. Definitely not worthy of S-rank.

Venusaur should move up to S imo, alongside with Slowbro. They run this metagame for obvious reasons. Slowbro is a staple on so many teams and Venusaur is extremely versatile and can fill a shitton of roles on offensive, balanced, and defensive teams. It has fair bulk and an extreme amount of Special Attack to back it up.

Palossand should also move up obviously. B+ is a good place for it I think. It has proven its worth in SPL multiple times and I've used it myself too and can safely say it should not be down low that much.

 

[Virizain]

Whimsicott -> A

This has been floating in my mind for a while and now seemed like the appropriate time to nom it. I feel that Whimsicott is not one of the top 3 mons it was now in a venusaur meta where the opportunity cost of using it over venu is huge, and even specs sets get hardwalled by spdef spreads of venu as they avoid the 2HKO from Psychic. The meta in general is very prepared for whims with shit like Steelvaly, null ,klink Cryo and Phox running around that I feel when I do end up running it over venu it just does its job semi-reliably. Not going to make a long post about this but just not in an optimal spot rn in a venu meta and would support a small drop to A.

(Steel) -> B+

People are catching onto Steelvally. Having a Sneasel/Vanilli/Klinklang/Whimsicott check in your Defogger while packing utility in Parting Shot and toxic makes steelvally a staple on a lot of common balance cores to keep them intact. It still has its own issues in being easy to whittle down/losing to most rockers 1v1 which gives a hard time keeping hazards of the field but steelvally is still the backbone of certain slower teams which shine in this meta/ and i feel it was initially ranked lower then it should have been.

-> A-

tbh king should have rose in the emboar meta but its still potent at what it does now in leading standard bro/king offenses/balances and generally being a brilliant glue that can diversify its sets to running shit like Physically defensive Colbur Berry to minimize the opportunity cost of not running bro and giving you a more favorable matchup against Houndoom/Magmortar/Phox. OTR sets have been mostly overlooked in favor of aromatisse, actually abusing an offensive Water/Psychic typing and typically being very few things that can stop king under tr/boosted king. Dark-types being insane rn hurt sets like AV from being as consistent as it would like to be but definitely not B+ material imo.

-> B-

Probopass is a mon that recently got more attention, even getting some SPL usage for being something that can trap the go-to-go rocker on a lot teams and generally packing a lot of utility in rocks/ checking sneasel vannili and whimiscott/ and providing a slow volt switch that makes it a more appealing option to teams since so much shit appreciates lix being trapped and removed for them to do their thing. Not exactly meta defining but found success in tests and would bounce it out of c+.



Also supporting Venusaur to S, Slowbro to S, Phox/Helio to A+, Incin to B+ and Zangoose to B.

 

[etern]

Major Update incoming!

Rises:
Slowbro A+ > S
Venusaur A+ > S
Virizion A > A+
Medicham A- > A
Palossand C- > B-
Absol B- > B
Incineroar C+ > B+
Hariyama B > B+
Guzzlord A- > A
Sandslash-Alola UR > C-
 
Drops:
Delphox S > A+
Skuntank C > UR
Heliolisk S > A+
Accelgor B > B-
Crabominable C+ > C
Granbull C > C-
Jynx C > UR
Lilligant C > UR
Torkoal C- > UR
Zangoose A- > B+

Feel free to ask any questions you might have about drops / rises in the Pokemon Showdown NU Room!

Discussion Points:
Cryogonal: B+ > A-
Houndoom: B+ > A- / A
Tauros: C- > UR
Aggron: C- > UR
Dugtrio: B- > C / C-

 

[Modulo]

My take on the discussion points:

Cryogonal (B+ > A-): Cryos niche lies in having the best one-sided hazard removal, but most teams only have Stealth Rock as their hazards; meaning you'd want a hazard removal option that is affected less by them. Unless the team runs Garbodor or Omastar, you're better off using Altaria/Silvally or to slap an emergency Defog on stuff like Sigilyph or Whimsicott. Keep B+.

Houndoom (B+ > A-): Doom has 3 viable sets, but faces stiff competition. The Z breaker IMO is done better by Incineroar, who can break through almost all walls after a boost while Houndoom still struggles to gest past AV users and Audino after a NP. Scarf is only notable for having a (weak) Pursuit (which I feel is less relevant with the declining Delphox/Xatu usage) and maybe Destiny Bond; otherwise it is outdone by Delphox or even Magmortar. Blackglasses finally has you ask the question "why not just use Sneasel instead?". Houndoom does have a niche, but I think that niche is diminishing. Keep B+.

Tauros (C- > UR): I feel like Tauros could be slept on. Life Orb Sheer Force attacks are powerful, it has very decent coverage and a nice speed tier (outspeeding everything bar Sneasel and Whimsi). It has some issues (no defensive presence, easily revengekilled), but I could see Tauros sweeping or critically weakening teams in the currently very slow meta; giving it a niche moreso than many other C- mons. Keep C-

Aggron (C- > UR): I don't see Aggron's niche in the meta at all. As a rocker it is largely outclassed by Rhydon (more bulk, better attack, better STAB combination, access to SD/Megahorn...), as a physical wall it is outclassed by Steelix (no X4 weaknesses). Head Smash is powerful, but doesn't justify the loss of bulk in comparison to Don/Lix. Agree with UR.

Dugtrio (B- > C/C-): Should have been C/C- in the first place. Its niche is too specific and doesn't work all that well in a physically bulky meta. Agree with the drop to C/C-.


As for my own nomination:

Silvally (Steel): B -> B+
Echoing Virizain's nom. Not only is Silvally the glue to defensive teams, even offensively inclined teams appreciate the momentum it brings while checking Sneasel and Whimsi (2 problematic mons for offense).
I think it is very comparable to Altaria; trading the instant recovery move (which it needs less thanks to not being SR weak) for Parting Shot, making its passivity less of an issue due to the momentum gain; Natural Cure vs. Toxic immunity is mostly a wash too. With this comparison, I don't think Silvally should be a tier below Altaria (especially since I think it is actually slightly better for many teams).

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

My take on the discussion points:

Cryogonal (B+ > A-): Cryos niche lies in having the best one-sided hazard removal, but most teams only have Stealth Rock as their hazards; meaning you'd want a hazard removal option that is affected less by them. Unless the team runs Garbodor or Omastar, you're better off using Altaria/Silvally or to slap an emergency Defog on stuff like Sigilyph or Whimsicott. Keep B+.

Houndoom (B+ > A-): Doom has 3 viable sets, but faces stiff competition. The Z breaker IMO is done better by Incineroar, who can break through almost all walls after a boost while Houndoom still struggles to gest past AV users and Audino after a NP. Scarf is only notable for having a (weak) Pursuit (which I feel is less relevant with the declining Delphox/Xatu usage) and maybe Destiny Bond; otherwise it is outdone by Delphox or even Magmortar. Blackglasses finally has you ask the question "why not just use Sneasel instead?". Houndoom does have a niche, but I think that niche is diminishing. Keep B+.

Tauros (C- > UR): I feel like Tauros could be slept on. Life Orb Sheer Force attacks are powerful, it has very decent coverage and a nice speed tier (outspeeding everything bar Sneasel and Whimsi). It has some issues (no defensive presence, easily revengekilled), but I could see Tauros sweeping or critically weakening teams in the currently very slow meta; giving it a niche moreso than many other C- mons. Keep C-

Aggron (C- > UR): I don't see Aggron's niche in the meta at all. As a rocker it is largely outclassed by Rhydon (more bulk, better attack, better STAB combination, access to SD/Megahorn...), as a physical wall it is outclassed by Steelix (no X4 weaknesses). Head Smash is powerful, but doesn't justify the loss of bulk in comparison to Don/Lix. Agree with UR.

Dugtrio (B- > C/C-): Should have been C/C- in the first place. Its niche is too specific and doesn't work all that well in a physically bulky meta. Agree with the drop to C/C-.


As for my own nomination:

Silvally (Steel): B -> B+
Echoing Virizain's nom. Not only is Silvally the glue to defensive teams, even offensively inclined teams appreciate the momentum it brings while checking Sneasel and Whimsi (2 problematic mons for offense).
I think it is very comparable to Altaria; trading the instant recovery move (which it needs less thanks to not being SR weak) for Parting Shot, making its passivity less of an issue due to the momentum gain; Natural Cure vs. Toxic immunity is mostly a wash too. With this comparison, I don't think Silvally should be a tier below Altaria (especially since I think it is actually slightly better for many teams).

Yeah i would have to agree with Tauros not being unranked. I have tried it a few times and I would even say it is one of the best C- mons. Life orb sheer force attacks hit hard, and body slam, in particular, is no joke. Decent wallbreaker and has a small, albeit existing niche in the meta. Keep C-

 

[MultiAmmiratore]

Cryogonal: The loss of emboar in the meta is nice for it but with the rise of incineroar and houndoom it can loose so much momentum, rapid spin makes it a good choice on hazard stack, meta trends aren't really giving it an easy time, I would keep it at B+
Houndoom: same thing here, sure it lost emboar which wasa nice offensive check but at the same time it gained incineroar as a check also the rise of guzzlord, hariyama and colbur slowbro isn't really nice with it, I would keep it B+
Tauros: no experience with this
Aggron: I wouldn't unrank this, steel and rock after the seismitoad shift is really difficult to switch into and even if its Typing isn't that good it can check choice locked ice cream, M-Audino and others thank to its steel Typing and being able to 2HKO slowbro with head smash and steelix with EQ forces various mindgames, I think it is Worth of C-
Dugtrio: no experience with this

 

[Ampharo]

Houndoom B+>A- AGREE: I think people are getting the wrong idea about doom, I am aware that it's outclassed by a lot of what it does, but doom is great because of the wonderful role compression it provides. Need a pursuit trapper that also acts as a good scarf, only doom can. Need a Pokemon that can essentially be a late game scarf with flame charge while also being a breaker, only doom can. Need a dark type that can immediately threaten slowbro, only doom can(Incineroar cannot do this without a boost, and lol Sneasel). Need a pursuit trapper that can sometimes directly switch in on what it's trapping while also providing fire immunity and doesn't have to play mind games with Delphox, only doom can. It can also run techs like z-reversal for it's resists, hitting with 160BP and 2HKO or OHKO all would be resists. Doom is great, but not because it does one thing best, but because it's incredibly versatile and does several things decently.

 

[not tom hanks]

tauros should be not unranked
tauros is pretty okay with a solid speed tier and workable offenses. as was said, life orb sheer force hits pretty hard on the physical end, or if you want to ruse your opponent, a special set with its large movepool, that mere 40 special attack puts a big dent in many things (though it fails to land many ohkos without hazard support) . alternatively, intimidate works as a safe switch in with okay 75/95 bulk. you can also run niche picks like pursuit or endeavor or something. ive found it to be a staple in many of my teams

 

[Shadestep]

tauros should be not unranked
tauros is pretty okay with a solid speed tier and workable offenses. as was said, life orb sheer force hits pretty hard on the physical end, or if you want to ruse your opponent, a special set with its large movepool, that mere 40 special attack puts a big dent in many things (though it fails to land many ohkos without hazard support) . alternatively, intimidate works as a safe switch in with okay 75/95 bulk. you can also run niche picks like pursuit or endeavor or something. ive found it to be a staple in many of my teams

agree on this, underexplored mons =/= bad mons, it was ranked once for a reason and is still definitely viable. If anything I’d support it for a rise rather than a drop. I’ve used it with decent success myself and its not that hard to slap on teams that lack a strong physical breaker and don’t want to have to rely on something like Medicham or something similar high risk / high reward. Definitely keep Tauros ranked.

Also quick Q since I can’t access PS right now; what were the main reasons for unranking Skuntank? Not trying to be a bitch about it just interested

 

[ceal]

I think Tauros's biggest problem isn't just to do with itself, but moreso because of the competition it faces. Normal type wallbreakers aren't very common in NU (bar Heliolisk, but as a special attack it's not really too comparable to Tauros) and that's for a number of reasons, but those that are viable have much more going for them than Tauros. Cinccino is significantly faster, and has great power with Skill Link, as well as good support in Knock Off and U-Turn to pivot. Dodrio has almost flawless coverage and possess SD to allow it to beat p much every physical wall in the tier. Zangoose utterly lacks defensive counterplay after a BD and has priority to ko faster mons, making it a dangerous late-game sweeper. Tauros, by contrast, has Sheer Force, which, while making it strong, doesn't help it a whole lot; Dodrio and Zangoose can make themselves stronger with setup and CB Cinccino's Tail Slap is actually stronger than SF LO Tauros's Rock Climb. Tauros also struggles with consistency as well. Most of its moves are horribly innacurate, making every turn with it a gamble, and while you can run Body Slam > Rock Climb to circumvent this somewhat, it only makes your normal STAB weaker and forces you to forego Iron Tail, which leaves you weaker vs Rhydon. Tauros offers virtually nothing the other Normal types don't already have, bar somewhat better bulk, which is quite paltry when its typing deprives it of any ability to switch in on mons. It also is walled by Slowbro, unlike the other normals, which, given its recent rise to S rank, should speak for itself. Unrank Tauros.

tauros should be not unranked
tauros is pretty okay with a solid speed tier and workable offenses. as was said, life orb sheer force hits pretty hard on the physical end, or if you want to ruse your opponent, a special set with its large movepool, that mere 40 special attack puts a big dent in many things (though it fails to land many ohkos without hazard support) . alternatively, intimidate works as a safe switch in with okay 75/95 bulk. you can also run niche picks like pursuit or endeavor or something. ive found it to be a staple in many of my teams

Intimidate Tauros is unviable. Lack of any resistances and recovery options leaves Tauros to be easily worn down by any strong physical attacker it wants to switch into, and that's not even factoring in the passive damage from hazards and the life orb recoil you'd be taking thanks to lack of Sheer Force. You'll also be making yourself incredibly weaker vs the walls you want to be breaking; non-SF Tauros can't even 2hko non-sp.def Steelix with Fire Blast, while a -1 Gyro Ball will still 2hko you. You're basically crippling yourself for no real tangible benefit, which makes Intimidate not worth it at all. Idk what Tauros can trap that Sneasel can't, and endeavor seems incredibly situational and a waste of a moveslot most of the time.

 

[rhydonphilip]

Some pokemon I feel have been overlooked a bit + cryo;

Vikavolt to A-
Vikavolt was assumed to just be worse then Heliolisk, only to have people realise how insanely usefull it is to have a momentum abusing and gaining pivot with reliable recovery and versatile type. Leftovers vika provides a blank answere to a wide range of pokemon only having to worry about being worn by rocks. It switches into: Slowbro, checks Sneasel, punishes most of what venusaur tries to do(but loses depending on the set), pivots vs Audino/Type: null like its nobody's buisness, comes into Steelix and uses it for everything it could dream of doing, 1v1 checks none edge Virizon, punishes whimsicott, the list goes on and on it's stupid. its not relevant how well helio does when its in when it gets 2HKO's by even average attacks of pokemon its ment to come into like Slowbro as Psyshock 2HKO's not even thinking about how it needs specs to not be worn to bits by any special wall not named AV Slowking. Regardless these are negatives to Helio and not possitives to Vika but it sure doesn't sound like it compeats roles here.
I am personally not the biggest fan of the agility set for how matchup reliant it is but it's a worth mention for sure. Other Usefull sets like Buggium Z and LO roost are already well astablished but to my own experience the leftovers set just shocks all of the current meta up.

Miltank to B+
Where vika might have shaken stuff up, Miltank just doesn't seem to move at all. Rocks, reliable recovery and a Vanilluxe/Phox answere in one(not to mention blank walling capasity to a limited extend) on top of a speed tier that allowes you to seismic an Incineroar or whatever they intended to wallbreak Type: Null/M-audino's with. I would seriously be suprised if this mon didn't rise to NU this month's usage slate as it does so damn well.

/

I am not opposed to see Cryogonal rise, it always was B+/A- area and depending on how you looked at it it could suit both area's. I find it very splashable even with Sneasel around to ruin its life. Still reliably comes into pokemon such as Whimsicott, Venu, Helio, guzz and more. The practicallity of its hazard removal has not slowed down as it unquestionably is the best spinner in current meta and a staple on balance teams not running a steel-vally as it does almost the same but with recovery and a different type.
Steel-vally to B+ on the same reasoning just lacking recovery but providing a better type.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

Just a single nom ""I"" thought of tonight:

A to A+
The absense of Emboar has really helped Steelix become a defensive behemoth, as many water types that were used to check it have fallen off, and Emboar itself gave Steelix problems. A super reliable rocker and checks a lot of relevant threats like Whimsicott, Vanilluxe, Vikavolt, miltank, Heliolisk, Vicillon, Sneasel, Rhydon, Aromatisse, and unboosted incineroar. Almost no fire type likes to switch into lix, and physical mons that don't have answer to this mon are in for trouble. Gives a ton of relevant mons trouble and always put in work for a team that uses it well, and for that reason I think it should be with the even bigger threats in A+

 

[Rabia]

Just a single nom ""I"" thought of tonight:
View attachment 104359 A to A+
The absense of Emboar has really helped Steelix become a defensive behemoth, as many water types that were used to check it have fallen off, and Emboar itself gave Steelix problems. A super reliable rocker and checks a lot of relevant threats like Whimsicott, Vanilluxe, Vikavolt, miltank, Heliolisk, Vicillon, Sneasel, Rhydon, Aromatisse, and unboosted incineroar. Almost no fire type likes to switch into lix, and physical mons that don't have answer to this mon are in for trouble. Gives a ton of relevant mons trouble and always put in work for a team that uses it well, and for that reason I think it should be with the even bigger threats in A+

Steelix doesn't check most of the Pokemon you have listed; Steelix gets two-hit by Whimsicott, Vanilluxe, and Heliolisk (assuming you don't switch-in on an Electric-type move), and tbh Steelix gets shredded by Bug-Z Vikavolt (SSO into Energy Ball drops Steelix and Steelix actually is set-up fodder for any Agility Vikavolt that exist).

I don't know about this nom mainly because the only thing meta trend you've sighted for Steelix being better is Emboar leaving while there are trends that are not good for it such as Incineroar and Houndoom being better because of lack of competition now, as well as other mons such as Vanilluxe being better with Emboar no longer around to soft check. I think Steelix is one of the better Pokemon in A, but I hesitate to say it should rise to A+ given it really hasn't gotten any better, and just isn't outclassing what else is in A severely enough to warrant a rise.

 

[Punchshroom]

Tauros also struggles with consistency as well. Most of its moves are horribly innacurate, making every turn with it a gamble, and while you can run Body Slam > Rock Climb to circumvent this somewhat, it only makes your normal STAB weaker and forces you to forego Iron Tail, which leaves you weaker vs Rhydon.

I want to point out that Sheer Force Body Slam + Iron Tail is compatible ever since USUM tutors so this argument is moot. That said, considering Iron Tail's less than 0.2% chance to 2HKO Rhydon, the only real reason to bother with Steel coverage is for Mega Audino, and Iron Head already 2HKOes SpD variants anyway. Body Slam's consistency over Rock Climb is too good to pass up.

While other Normal-type breakers certainly offer significant advantages over it, such as Dodrio's access to SD + dual STAB + neutral coverage, Cinccino's Bullet Seed + Knock Off being annoying for walls, and Zangoose being a monster after Drum, Tauros has one major benefit: it is the hardest among them to wear down. Dodrio and Zangoose have to hurt themselves to be very dangerous, Dodrio is weak to SR, and Cinccino is always at risk of an errant Rocky Helmet. Tauros not only has a natural mechanism in Sheer Force + Life Orb that prevents self-harm, but it even has Earthquake to not make contact. Its physical bulk is even decent for a mon as fast as it is.

Of course, Tauros is this low in the first place because Normal-type breakers aren't ever in particularly high demand. Tauros's raw power also isn't quite exceptional, as it does trail behind Cinccino's Tail Slap very slightly in raw power and doesn't have a +2 (or more) boosting move to make up for it. With that said, while being walled by Slowbro is indeed annoying, Earthquake's coverage against the likes of Garbodor and Klinklang can't be overlooked, and Tauros's Speed tier is still plenty good enough to work with. While Tauros isn't a mon I'd personally strongly recommend, it's not bad enough that I'd discourage its use, nor do I think it's poor enough to be unranked, at least in the meantime.

 

[Modulo]

Oh yeah, gotta rank dis mon.

Blastoise -> C+

Blastoise's niche is that it can run a variety of sets; but basically every single one of them is outdone by another mon. Slowbro and Vaporeon are better bulky Waters (aside from Rapid Spin, which I don't consider a huge niche), it's a lot more passive than other hazard removal options (plus, it loses to Rotom), and its offensive stats and movepool, while acceptable, are nothing special either. I think its best set rn might be a Specs set, which can do some damage, but isn't well positioned in the meta. I could see it rise/drop depending on meta trends/people's opinions, but being in the same tier as Typhlosion and Clawitzer seems like a decent start.

 

[Yoshi]

-> A-
I don't have a very strong opinion on this Pokemon, so I'm probably not going to write much. Cryogonal is one of those Pokemon that if there were a tier between B+ and A-, I would put it there. With the absence of Emboar, it's capabilities as a Spinner have increased quite a bit, and it is also a great check to Heliolisk and Venusaur as well. Right now, it seems that the list of reasons to use Cryogonal is certainly increasing, so I do think it should rise to A-.

-> A-
The more I seem to thing about this nomination the more I seem to agree. Houndoom right now works great against bulkier teams, being able to shut down a lot of passive Pokemon like Altaria and Mega Audino with Taunt, and that's just with the Nasty Plot set. It also pretty much 6-0s stall for the most part, although Pyukumuku can obviously cause issues. Despite that though, Nasty Plot is so great to use against bulkier teams, although I still think the problem lies with Houndoom within offense teams which carry faster Pokemon. With Pokemon like Slowbro and Venusaur becoming so much more common, I think Houndoom is a great addition to have on your team. The Scarf set is also really cool, being able to Pursuit trap a varaiety of the tier's Psychic and Ghost-types, such as Delphox and Mismagius. Not much as really changed for the Scarf set in my opinion, although Destiny Bond variants can stop Z-Celebrate Venusaur now. It can also run Toxic as a fourth move, so you're not completely useless against bulkier Pokemon like Mega Audino. Therefore, I think Houndoom should rise to A-.

-> UR
I actually ran a workshop where we built around this Pokemon, and we found the main thing that prevents this Pokemon from doing anything at all for the most part, is the ever-potent Slowbro. Slowbro seeing much more usage and rising in ranking invalidates Tauros completely, and while you could run a Work Up set to deal with Slowbro, Tauros rarely gets the opportunity. On paper, Tauros seems great, but in practice, it really fails to do what you want it to do most of the time. Checks like Sneasel and Heliolisk also give it hell. With that in mind, I do think that Tauros should be unranked. Side note: It's definitely not unusable, but honestly I don't see the point of having it ranked.

-> UR

-> C+
I don't really care for these nominations too much, however I'd probably unrank Aggron but keep Dugtrio where it is.

 

[Ampharo]

Silvally-Water C+>B-/B: Silvallyw is an excellent defogger, able to beat every hazard setter in the tier 1vs1 and finds opportunities to defog on bulky waters and fire types. It can fit on offensive teams that have too many rocks weak Pokemon to comfortably use whimsicott for defogging and need an offensive fire resist that isn't a fire type, and has parting shot to help fire types that might otherwise be reluctant to switch in on the grass types that switch into it.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

Well the HAs for the starters are out, so with Incineroar finally having Intimidate, this thing is gonna be even better than it is now. I will say that this will be A ranking material. Has anyone played any games with this ability yet??