Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
The fact teams overprep for Ash-Greninja is a strong point for its stay in S. Because just because it isn‘t murdering everyone on the ladder doesn‘t mean it wouldn‘t murder on an equal playfield. If we‘re going by those rules Toxapex‘d need to drop as well and that‘s not going to happen.
They don't overprep for Ash-Gren. No one has given an example of what "overprepping for Gren" even looks like. All the mons that wall it in OU would have usage with or without its presence. Dudes like Ferrothorn, Pex, Fini, Bulu, Chansey, Tangrowth, Kommo-O are being used for plenty of other reasons than Greninja.

Just to move things along though:

I think Vic is worthy of B+ nomination due to Choice Band & Choice Scarf sets. Choice Band is an unstoppable nuke and Choice Scarf is seeing increased usage due to Final Gambit. It also is a very good switch into all forms of Tapu Lele (offensive sets can once, but that's all Vic needs to claim a mon due to sheer power).

My other change would be Manaphy rising to B+ as well. Manaphy with HydraRest is the best rain abuser in the tier, period. However, it does require rain support to reach full potential. That's what stops it from being in the A ranks.

Other than those I think most things on the VR are accurately placed. Maybe Weavile being B is a stretch for me but I don't see it often enough to really have a developed opinion.
 
I'd also like to give my opinion on a few rises and drops I think are well deserved.

Keldeo C+ --> C Agree
Keldeo is just mediocre, it's stabs that used to be extremely spammable are anything but that and the nerf to burn made old checks like Amoongus even harder to punish. It's also almost completely outclassed by Ash-Gren as an offensive water type thanks to Ash-Gren being capable of beating it's checks with spikes and having an even more spammable STAB combo.

Blacephalon C+ --> B- Agree
Blacephalon is another mon that has an amazing STAB combo, blacephalon would be complete garbage if it didn't have access to trick, which eliminates mons like Chansey and Pex as counters, since neither enjoy being choiced. It also has some decent defensive utility, since it's a decent check to the setup Magearna sets since the CM set lives all Z moves and scarf ohkos with fire blast.

Now, it's not perfect, as Tyranitar is a hard counter who also Pursuit traps it and it's weakness to rocks combined with the fact that's it's pretty easy to revenge kill hold it back but I still do think that it's nuclear power is enough to make it B- (oops).

Manaphy B --> B+ Agree
Manaphy is a pretty interesting mon, in that it's pretty much a hard Stall counter, while also having a decent matchup against Balance and Semi Stall on rain, which is pretty good. But the problem is that it's utility is exclusive to rain and it's BO and HO matchups are decent at best. I still think it's good but It's not worthy of anything higher.

Hydreigon B --> B+ Agree
It's great as both an offensive and bulky defoger while also having amazing coverage and decent defensive utility thanks to levitate and a decent typing, letting it resist volt switch and such and thanks to roost it can even switch into decently strong water type attacks.

Sure it has a few flaws, like it's speed not being the greatest and it's 4x weakness to fairy being annoying against Fini but it has enough utility to set it appart from other special attackers in the tier while also being decently powerful, which is why I think it's worthy of B+.

Zydog C- --> UR Couldn't agree more
Zydog is just bad, and has always been bad. It's defenses are bad enough that any setup set barely functions, and it's attack is low enough that not even band can save it. The only advantage it has over other grounds is that it has Thousand Arrows, which is pretty good, but that doesn't save it from being completely outclassed by Lando-T and Garchomp.

I can see why it got ranked but I think that it has proven itself as being bad enough to become unranked.
 
Last edited:

Egor

пупа и лупа пошли получать зарплату
is a Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
ok my last shitpost in this thread

:sm/kommo-o: up to B/B+
Yeah this mon is amazing: it is good on both offensive and defensive sides of spectrum thanks to its typing, stats distribution, and movepool, it has versatility within various sets like Rocks+Soulblaze, ToxTect, SubSalac, and a lot more (even shit like ZElectric lol). I'm not sure whether B or B+ rank suits Kommo-o better but the clanger definitely deserves a rise, since B- really underestimates it.

:sm/zygarde-10%: down to UR
FUCKING YES!!! Zydog is just terrible. Not only it's frail as fuck and weak for a physical breaker (not OHKOing Tapu Lele from full with a Band-boosted STAB is like :pikuh: ), it is also very tough to properly build around: it absolutely mandates Spikes and takes up a slot where you can put smth more useful like ZRock Garchomp. Overall, unrank this unmon. Please.

I'm too lazy to address any other nomination. Outside of this one:
:sm/greninja-ash:
Nomming Ash-Greninja down to A+ is really controversial but I can see where it comes from. The omnipresence of balances and semistalls on high level play, which are pretty tough matchups for Ash-Greninja due to the bulk and natural counterplay it faces, definitely doesn't support it. But just every team must have counterplay to it, even fast and frail offenses. The thing is that not only Ash-Greninja actually does something in any matchup but it also puts a fuckton of pressure on the teambuilding, which reflects exactly in how any team is prepped to face it. Ash-Greninja is capable of destroying this counterplay with some team support or, in some cases, even single-handedly which is truly amazing. But ok ok these are well-known facts. Another thing which is often overlooked in the discussion here is that Protean Greninja becomes more prevalent compared to the past. We all should remember that Greninja, be it Ash or Protean, is the same mon, and the rise in usage of one hurts the usage of another. So, Protean Greninja becoming better and more popular means that people started dropping Ash-Greninja in favor of Protean more frequently. And this is understandable: said prevalent balances and semistalls are usually going to get a real hit from Protean's amazing coverage and sheer amount of sets: ZGround, ZWater, EBelt, ZFighting, either Spikes or not, even the recent ZGrass; the list isn't complete, Protean Greninja doesn't really have restrictions on its set. Protean isn't bad vs offenses too, like Ash-Greninja: its Speed and coverage make Protean pretty hard to deal with for frailer teams. I'm not saying that Ash-Greninja is bad. I always was a huuuge fan of it, it's still one of the most influental offensive mons and is one of the easiest wincons to put on a team. Right now, however, certain trends doesn't favor it.
Anyway, I don't have a concrete stance on Ash-Greninja's ranking. These^ are just my thoughts but I hope they will contribute to the future discussion.
 
Last edited:
The fact teams overprep for Ash-Greninja is a strong point for its stay in S. Because just because it isn‘t murdering everyone on the ladder doesn‘t mean it wouldn‘t murder on an equal playfield. If we‘re going by those rules Toxapex‘d need to drop as well and that‘s not going to happen.
I disagree with this statement, the amount of preparation teams take to have a great A-Gren mu shows that it has the potential to be S tier, but the fact that this overpreparation exists, already makes it less viable, what makes a mon have a high ranking on the vr is how good it is against the current meta, not how it forces teambuilding to center around it, that's just a product of that mon being very good against teams that don't prepare for it.

Let's say that x pokemon is a huge threat on a tier's metagame, and because of that, every team needs to have a lot of ways to check x mon, otherwise, they'll just be shredded by it, x mon is a real threat, but now all of this metagame's viable teams are full of counterplay for it, and suddenly, it is not that viable anymore, not as consistent, and not as effective as it used to be. Team still overprep for it tho, so they're not weak vs. a mon that has been proved to be an absolute menace.
Now, would x mon be still just as good as it used to be? I mean, it only has fallen from grace now because of how big of a threat it is, causing teams to be more prepared agains it, so has it really lost viability. Think about this.

Greninja A-> A+: Agree

Greninja offers so much offensive support to its teammates in the form of Spikes, U-Turn, and its obscene luring abilities, a well played Greninja can almost always lure its prey into a super-effective Z-Move: Toxapex, Magearna, Tapu Fini, Rotom-Wash, Chansey, Gastrodon, Seismitoad, Amoongus, all of these top tier threats are prone to Greninja luring, and that's because Gren has stupid coverage, and many matches against it are instantly over if you don't scout for the correct moveset or fall for a bluff. Even then I think A+ might be a little too high for Greninja if i'm being honest, so i'm unsure if A is a more appropiate tier.
 
The other pokemon that is a offensive spiker you were looking for was Mega Galalie, a offensive spiker that can put great pressure on Bulky teams and has the bulk to take a hit and boom to kill a mon, thats a real threat so spikes can go up and you break. This smoothly transitions into my next point being that Mega Galalie should be ranked C-, Not only does this pokemon break a ton of stuff and has good enough bulk to take hits, its a offensive spiker who isn't choiced locked and has the ability to lure and kill a ton of pokemon with Explosion like Ferrothorn, Kyurem, and a bunch of other pokemon. Galalie gets a solid coverage move with Earthquake that takes on would-be switch ins like Toxapex and Heatran. It also gets other moves like Ice Shard for solid priority, HP fire to target Scizor on switch-in, and a powerful STAB move in Return/Frustration for solid wall-breaking damage that doesn't kill Galalie off. In a SD Gliscor meta, wouldn't you like the option to just always force a 50/50 on Gliscor with spikes or just killing it?

Any rebuttals, questions, or anything I missed, feel free to express that along with anything else that comes to mind.
In my personal opinion, Mega Glalie could even be considered for C tier. It has a small but passionate following in OU, as stated in the above post, it has access to strong physical STAB moves in Frustration and Double Edge, with the latter being more powerful but coming with a recoil disadvantage. Its STAB Refrigerate boosted Explosion oftenly gets underestimated in sheer damage output and can contribute to the fact that a well played Mega Glalie can easily net 1-2 kills per game, which is difficult to handle for all teams. Spikes give it a solid option for capitalizing upon its scare factor against slower teams by exerting passive damage to grounded foes in a similar fashion to Ash Greninja. However, unlike with Ash Greninja, its Ice-Ground coverage is far more difficult to gracefully handle than Water-Dark coverage. Ice Shard can help it finishing off weakened but faster foes such as Choice Scarf users and naturally faster opposition such as Mega Lopunny. Freeze Dry should also not be overlooked, as it hits solid switch-ins like Rotom-Wash for super effective damage and 4x super effective damage on Water-Ground Pokemon like Gastrodon and Quagsire. Its Speed, that being 100, is also not to underetimate, as it gets the drop on defensive Pokemon and slower offensive non-Choice Scarf users such as Landorus-T, Gliscor, Heatran, Magearna, Tapu Lele and Tapu Bulu, as well as the balance crushing Kyurem-B.
To close this up, I strongly agree with the implementation of Mega Glalie into the VR. In terms of replays, I have fogged memories of Blunder using it in tournaments, when that was, against whom, or where to find the replays I don't know, but I do know they exist, so I would appreciate the kind people of Smogon to help us out here.
 

Ruft

is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Won OST Predictions
In terms of replays, I have fogged memories of Blunder using it in tournaments, when that was, against whom, or where to find the replays I don't know, but I do know they exist, so I would appreciate the kind people of Smogon to help us out here.
SPL X week 4: blunder vs Cdumas

:terrakion: Terrakion from C+ to C/C-

I was taking a look at all the Pokémon listed on the VR today and if I were to ignore all the ones that have already been nommed since the last slate (which are a lot) Terrakion stood out to me the most. It's been ages since the last time I've even seen one, both on the ladder and in tours, and when I'm building a team Terrakion never comes to mind as a good idea. It faces very heavy competition as a Stealth Rock setter from Landorus-T and Garchomp (which can make use of Rockium Z too), as well as Tyranitar and Kommo-o, among others. Kommo-o has also been steadily rising as a much more useful and versatile Fighting-type than Terrakion. Slowbro has been rising in usage too which hurts it as well.
One of the worst things about it is that it gets destroyed by pretty much every common scarfer: Landorus-T, Kartana, Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, Jirachi, Ditto, the list goes on. But if I had to tell you the single worst thing about it, it's that Kartana, one of the most common Pokémon right now, outspeeds it by one point. You might have thought Close Combat was good for it but even Scarf Kartana bops it since Leaf Blade, Smart Strike and Sacred Sword OHKO it.
It is definitely not good enough for C+ as there are some actually legit Pokémon there like Skarmory (!), Blacephalon, Bisharp and Mega Aggron. I'd personally put it in C- as I think certain C Pokémon like Azumarill, Thundurus-T and Krookodile are better and see more usage too.
 
Dudes like Ferrothorn, Pex, Fini, Bulu, Chansey, Tangrowth, Kommo-o are being used for plenty of other reasons than Greninja.
The fact that some of the best qualities of Hydreigon, Spdef Tapu-Bulu and Kommo-o are that they can offensively check Ash-Greninja is a huge reason for why they are such good pokemon (bulu less so imo but still). Tapu Fini would also have much less usage since it's the only mon that defensively checks ash gren while also learning defog to remove spikes, removing this massive boon would be terrible for Tapu-Finis usage (yes I know that bulky defog Hydreigon exists, I also do know that they never mentioned Hydreigon but It's a mon that'd also be heavily affected if Ash-Greninja didn't exist).

Now I get that these mons would still have decently high usage, but their usage would definately drop if Ash-Greninja didn't exist.

Now for mega glalie

Glalie-Mega UR --> C- or C Agree
Honestly completely blanked this mon out of my mind but thanks Zaza for reminding me. This mon is pretty good right now, it's an offensive spikes setter that threatens SD Gliscor while also being an amazing offensive threat to fatter teams in general, since it always threatens a KO with almost unresistable coverage and Refrigerate boosted Explosion pretty much koing anything that's tanky enough to beat the usual Return/Double-Edge + Earthquake combo. Honestly, offensive spikes is amazing, and without it it'd easily remain UR imo.

It still has alot of flaws, such as taking up a mega slot, being rocks weak and having one of the worst defensive typings in the game, but it's stats definately let it take a few "weaker" neutral hits, and this combined with it's amazing offences is easily enough to rank it.
 
This doesn't strike me as a good reason to down-rank it. With the sheer diversity of threats in the meta right now, a Pokemon that was forcing otherwise-unviable mons to be carried on a team specifically for it wouldn't just be S-rank -- it would almost certainly be quickbanned.
The fact that some of the best qualities of Hydreigon, Spdef Tapu-Bulu and Kommo-o are that they can offensively check Ash-Greninja is a huge reason for why they are such good pokemon (bulu less so imo but still). Tapu Fini would also have much less usage since it's the only mon that defensively checks ash gren while also learning defog to remove spikes, removing this massive boon would be terrible for Tapu-Finis usage (yes I know that bulky defog Hydreigon exists, I also do know that they never mentioned Hydreigon but It's a mon that'd also be heavily affected if Ash-Greninja didn't exist).
It strikes me as bandwagon and causation fallacy. The point was that Ash-Gren is adequately checked by metagame staples, to which I argue of the ones listed all have multiple other fish to fry or additional utility than just checking Ash-Gren. The same can't really be said of Heatran or Magearna, who teams often are scrambling to find counters for. The "multiple checks when team building" argument just isn't as credible given the natural usage of mons that can check Gren.

Moving on to the point. I think the case for Ash-Greninja remaining S is much much stronger if its unevolved state is disembodied. The opportunity cost is that Ash-Greninja is not available from turn 1, and Specs Greninja is a weak, frail pokemon. If they could be separately ranked, that would be ideal. If not, I just don't see how we overlook this. The other S pokemon are just better.

Let's not forget A+ is still a top tier pokemon. Some of these responses read like Ash-Gren has been nominated for B or something.
 
Nominations
:torkoal: UR -> C
This little fiery turtle is a staple on sun teams, an archetype barely explored.
It serves as a rocker and a spinner at the same time, which makes it the only mon besides Excadrill to possess both. It also sports a great base 140 def, on par with skarmory, and Fire Blast hits hard as hell in the sun, while Lava Plume fishes for burns.
:kyurem-black: B+ -> B
With sand and rain dominating the meta currently, Kyu-B imo is having a tough time.
In sand, the optimal move would be Earth Power, but it fails to OHKO either TTar or Exca
4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 216-256 (59.6 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 102-122 (26.6 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

And while Z-moves one shot both after rocks, subzero slammer is a one-time thing, and the other easily takes care of it.
With regards to rain, kyub isn't necessarily bad, it's just kind of an awkward MU, it really can't do much to Ferro if it's Z-move is gone, and it's z-move fails to guarantee a KO after rocks
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 306-362 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
But ferro does 1-shot it back
While it one-shots swampert with Z-move the next reliable thing, Ice Beam, fails to net a 2hko after rocks, while swampert does with EQ
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 268-316 (78.3 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Manaphy fails to one-shot back at +3 without 1 layer of spikes, but Ash-Gren easily remedies this problem
That about wraps it up.
 
Nominations
:torkoal: UR -> C
This little fiery turtle is a staple on sun teams, an archetype barely explored.
It serves as a rocker and a spinner at the same time, which makes it the only mon besides Excadrill to possess both. It also sports a great base 140 def, on par with skarmory, and Fire Blast hits hard as hell in the sun, while Lava Plume fishes for burns.
:kyurem-black: B+ -> B
With sand and rain dominating the meta currently, Kyu-B imo is having a tough time.
In sand, the optimal move would be Earth Power, but it fails to OHKO either TTar or Exca
4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 216-256 (59.6 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 102-122 (26.6 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

And while Z-moves one shot both after rocks, subzero slammer is a one-time thing, and the other easily takes care of it.
With regards to rain, kyub isn't necessarily bad, it's just kind of an awkward MU, it really can't do much to Ferro if it's Z-move is gone, and it's z-move fails to guarantee a KO after rocks
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 306-362 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
But ferro does 1-shot it back
While it one-shots swampert with Z-move the next reliable thing, Ice Beam, fails to net a 2hko after rocks, while swampert does with EQ
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 268-316 (78.3 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Manaphy fails to one-shot back at +3 without 1 layer of spikes, but Ash-Gren easily remedies this problem
That about wraps it up.
Although I like the Torkoal I highly disagree with both drop of Kyurem Black and stating that its not very good rn in the meta because sand and rain is common.

1) Kyurem Black is a monster against rain

Because of Kyurem Black's bulk, ice z picking up 1 free kill, and its dragon typing allowing it to eat STAB water rain-boosted attacks, its one of the most effective pokemon against rain in general when you're talking about wall breakers.

2) Against sand its also solid early game

Although I'll admit Kyurem Black isn't like it is against rain whatsoever, it is still a solid wall breaker against sand in general as nuking something like Ttar is a huge gain against those teams while also destroying common defensive cores that make up sand like tang/amoon+pex+steel. Kyurem Black is really only effected greatly in the matchup negatively when it comes to the offensive threat of Ttar and Excadrill, most other sand pokemon are just Kyurem Black food so late game sweeps from other pokemon due to its ability to dismantle those cores makes Kyurem too big of a threat to drop.

3) Balance is king and Kyurem Black is the king of breaking balance.

Kyurem Black is widely known for its ability to destroy any bulky team, so in a meta where the most common teams are balance, why would you drop Kyurem Black below B+, if anything Kyurem Black needs a raise to A- because of its ability to break balance so effortlessly with multiple sets like lo and z.

Any rebuttals, questions, or anything I missed, feel free to express that and I'll look into it.
 
Nominations
:torkoal: UR -> C
This little fiery turtle is a staple on sun teams, an archetype barely explored.
It serves as a rocker and a spinner at the same time, which makes it the only mon besides Excadrill to possess both. It also sports a great base 140 def, on par with skarmory, and Fire Blast hits hard as hell in the sun, while Lava Plume fishes for burns.
:kyurem-black: B+ -> B
With sand and rain dominating the meta currently, Kyu-B imo is having a tough time.
In sand, the optimal move would be Earth Power, but it fails to OHKO either TTar or Exca
4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 216-256 (59.6 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 102-122 (26.6 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

And while Z-moves one shot both after rocks, subzero slammer is a one-time thing, and the other easily takes care of it.
With regards to rain, kyub isn't necessarily bad, it's just kind of an awkward MU, it really can't do much to Ferro if it's Z-move is gone, and it's z-move fails to guarantee a KO after rocks
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 306-362 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
But ferro does 1-shot it back
While it one-shots swampert with Z-move the next reliable thing, Ice Beam, fails to net a 2hko after rocks, while swampert does with EQ
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 268-316 (78.3 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Manaphy fails to one-shot back at +3 without 1 layer of spikes, but Ash-Gren easily remedies this problem
That about wraps it up.
Also strongly disagree with a kyub drop, for the reasons in the above post (balance breaker in a balanced meta, great vs rain). It's most common checks (magearna, ferro, heatran, jirachi) all lack reliable recovery and can typically only switch in a couple of times, meaning that if you conserve kyubs own health and bring it in thru voltturn, it's really just a waiting game until it breaks through the opp.
I want to add that Z-move is far from it's only set. Kyubs dragon typing and fantastic bulk can really be capitalized on in this meta tanking f/w/g and electric attacks, and it can set up a sub on top tier pokemon like ferrothorn, koko, defensive lando, pex, rotom, zapdos, bulu, serp. It has the bulk and staying power to run sub+lefties or sub+roost, which IMO are it's best sets right now, allowing it to pick apart the opposing team while they have to focus on getting rid of that obnoxious sub (kyub's substitute can tank 2-3 resisted hits, and standard scarf lando fails to break it with u-turn. this is huge.)
I'd also push it up a subrank if anything.
 

PsyducksChili

Banned deucer.
This is a final goodbye post, I guess, since SSD is going to end soon. Here are my predictions for rises and drops before SM ends.

:venusaur::torkoal: —> C or C-
There’s been a ton of discussion about sun lately and I’ve talked about it many of times, along with Zaza. Basically were able to think up some good reasons as to why these guys should be on the VR.
Zaza’s post
My post
These are all good reasons for sun to be on the VR, and I really recommend reading Zaza’s, since it really disproves non-sun believer’s arguments. Plus, ladder usage has been higher too.

:sableye-mega: —>A
Stall staple, amazing typing, high usage in tour, literally no reason to go higher. I saw a post by DeltaInsurgent right here which I strongly agree with. All the reasons made perfect sense and I think all this should lead up to Sableye’s rise. I don’t necessarily agree with snarl on the set, but being able to just stop threats with it’s massive bulk is really good, as stated in the post.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-454313
also a replay that shows how annoying this thing’s typing is

:keldeo: —> C
This Pocket Monster is the definition of suck. Literally no reason to use it, and if you even want to use a SpAtking water you just use Ash-Gren. The SubCM set is okay but the specs set takes a ton of team support to pull off and I think this mon is going to have to drop, since it saw little to no usage in tour lately.

:zygarde-10%: —> UR
This mon needs to gtfo. Really? Zydog? If Zydog is ranked then why should Torkoal and Venusaur not be ranked? It’s not a good breaker and I’ve seen many compare it to Jellicent, since it was on the VR but it was borderline UNVIABLE. The band set is decent, but other ground-type breakers like SD Lando or SD Gliscor are overall superior, and the DD set is ass, because idk about you, but I wouldn’t waste my Z Crystal on a shitmon.

:ditto: —> B+
This mon deserves a higher ranking it can trap Zone, it can turn the tables on vicious sweepers like DD Gyara or DD TTar. What it does for stall and semi stall alike is too huge to go unnoticed. And do you REALLY think this mon deserves to be in the same spot on the VR as Pyukumuku?

:kommo-o: —> A- or B+
Lately, Kommo-o has been HUGE in this meta. It runs a great SpDef set that reliably gets rocks up and spreads passive damage with toxic, or more offensive sets with Kommonium Z, and even BD on some HO teams. This thing has seen SO much usage lately in USUM. It deserves a spot on the VR.
Anyways, thats all I got before the gen ends. Looking forward to SwSh. :psysly:
 
Last edited:
Stall staple, amazing typing, high usage in tour, literally no reason to go higher. I saw a post by DeltaInsurgent right here which I strongly agree with. All the reasons made perfect sense and I think all this should lead up to Sableye’s rise. I don’t necessarily agree with snarl on the set, but being able to just stop threats with it’s massive bulk is really good, as stated in the post.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-454313
also a replay that shows how annoying this thing’s typing is
Small nitpick, Sableye is already B+.

I do think that it should stay in B+ and not go to A- because it's basically just a stall mon. It's hard locked to stall and barely sees any play outside of that. A mon that's only really good on one team archetype shouldn't be A- unless said archetype is super dominant rn (like with reuniclus on semistall and pelipper/pert on rain).

If you could show me some "high tier" replays of it being used effectively in Semi-Stall and/or Balance, then I'll retract my statement but until then, this is my stance.

I agree with everything else in this post though (ok maybe not keldeo all the way to C- cuz it's better than shit like scolipede but I get where you're coming from).
 
Small nitpick, Sableye is already B+.

I do think that it should stay in B+ and not go to A- because it's basically just a stall mon. It's hard locked to stall and barely sees any play outside of that. A mon that's only really good on one team archetype shouldn't be A- unless said archetype is super dominant rn (like with reuniclus on semistall and pelipper/pert on rain).

If you could show me some "high tier" replays of it being used effectively in Semi-Stall and/or Balance, then I'll retract my statement but until then, this is my stance.

I agree with everything else in this post though (ok maybe not keldeo all the way to C- cuz it's better than shit like scolipede but I get where you're coming from).
Well I do have a good sable semi-stall/balance-ish team but its success isn't worth mentioning cause that team broken and boring to use so no rmt of that boring ass team.

I will take my time and attempt to nom another pokemon that caught my attention in the C-, and the name is Seismitoad.

This gross looking toad has a abnormal amount of useful abilities in this current meta, heres a list off the top of my head:
- Ground/Water is one of the best defensive typings in the game because of its immunity to electric attacks and not weak to common hp ice coverage.
- Water absorb is one of the most useful defensive abilities in the game, with Seis' typing makes it a amazing water switch in. A added bonus to this is that Seismitoad hard walls every Rotom Wash in existence that isn't scarf trick or toxic.
- Seismitoad's decent bulk of 105/75/75 lets it become a switch in into a decent portion of the meta like Magearna, Ash Greninja, Rotom W, Heatran, and other steel type pokemon not named Ferrothorn.
- Seismitoad has access to a bevy of different but all useful utility moves such as Stealth Rocks, Toxic, Icy Wind, Endeavor, Knock Off, Rock Tomb, and Refresh along with respectable STAB moves in Earthquake and Scald coming of decent attack stats of 95/85. Seismitoad can also use these respectable stats to make use of its good coverage such as Ice Beam, Sludge Bomb, and a awesome user of HP Fire which hits Ferrothorn for annoying chip damage, more reliable 1v1's against Scizor, and bops Kartana on switch in, EP is also decent for this. (Grass Knot fun for Gastrowall but ass set)

Because of these handy traits and its usage at least being respectable I believe that Seismitoad should be C ranked (or even C+ if I'm being totally honest)

btw if you guys want to experiment try pinch berry Toad, its really nice ngl, the normal set is leftovers though.

Any questions, rebuttals, or things you feel I missed, feel free to express that and I'll look into it.
 
Last edited:

Tenebricite

Leader of the Pawniards
is a Tiering Contributor
1573155746537.png
--> B+
I do not believe Volcarona deserves to be in A+ for a couple reasons. The first of these reasons is that Stealth Rock greatly limits Volcarona's ability to set up. This seems fairly simple, but it greatly limits its longevity and leaves it far more vulnerable to priority users such as specs Ash-Greninja, which can OHKO bulky Volcarona after rocks after one QD is set up. Furthermore, this bulky Volcarona set fails to outspeed important scarf mons after a QD such as lando, which can come in and take any hit from it and force it back out to take even more damage from stealth rocks. Volcarona's vulnerability to stealth rocks requires consistent removal, often in the form of defog. This reduces Volcarona's ability as a sweeper because it results in your own entry hazards needed to wear down opposing Pokemon for a potential Volc sweep being removed or otherwise being difficult to keep up. This makes team building with Volcarona difficult, which is likely a reason for its low usage and win % in the most recent Smogon Snake Draft.
Perhaps the biggest reason why Volc shouldn't be in A+ is its tendency to be easily stopped by walls like Chansey (can toxic volc) and Toxapex (can shut down almost any Volcarona set and wear it down with toxic). If Volcarona opts to run psychium to get rid of pex, it is then walled completely by toxic Heatran. Heatran, Toxapex, and Chansey are all extremely common in terms of usage (they are 5, 7, and 8 respectively by the latest stats). Other pokemon in the A+ tier have far more utility or versatility (such as Rotom-W or Gliscor) or breaking power (such as Mega Medi) than Volcarona has the ability to sweep. Let me know if you guys have any other thoughts!
 
View attachment 204478--> B+
I do not believe Volcarona deserves to be in A+ for a couple reasons. The first of these reasons is that Stealth Rock greatly limits Volcarona's ability to set up. This seems fairly simple, but it greatly limits its longevity and leaves it far more vulnerable to priority users such as specs Ash-Greninja, which can OHKO bulky Volcarona after rocks after one QD is set up. Furthermore, this bulky Volcarona set fails to outspeed important scarf mons after a QD such as lando, which can come in and take any hit from it and force it back out to take even more damage from stealth rocks. Volcarona's vulnerability to stealth rocks requires consistent removal, often in the form of defog. This reduces Volcarona's ability as a sweeper because it results in your own entry hazards needed to wear down opposing Pokemon for a potential Volc sweep being removed or otherwise being difficult to keep up. This makes team building with Volcarona difficult, which is likely a reason for its low usage and win % in the most recent Smogon Snake Draft.
Perhaps the biggest reason why Volc shouldn't be in A+ is its tendency to be easily stopped by walls like Chansey (can toxic volc) and Toxapex (can shut down almost any Volcarona set and wear it down with toxic). If Volcarona opts to run psychium to get rid of pex, it is then walled completely by toxic Heatran. Heatran, Toxapex, and Chansey are all extremely common in terms of usage (they are 5, 7, and 8 respectively by the latest stats). Other pokemon in the A+ tier have far more utility or versatility (such as Rotom-W or Gliscor) or breaking power (such as Mega Medi) than Volcarona has the ability to sweep. Let me know if you guys have any other thoughts!
I'd imagine that to justify such a huge drop (a whole rank), you'd need to base it heavily on recent changes to the metagame. A lot of what you said (Volc doesn't like SR, can't get past both Tran and Pex with the same set, gets usually stopped by Chansey, etc.) was just well-known facts about the mon. Maybe there's an implicit implication that hazard removal got way harder and Tran and Pex got somehow even more popular, but I'm not sure about it. If you think it has been long overdue a drop/drops, then maybe you should've made that more clear.
 
I do not believe Volcarona deserves to be in A+ for a couple reasons. The first of these reasons is that Stealth Rock greatly limits Volcarona's ability to set up. This seems fairly simple, but it greatly limits its longevity and leaves it far more vulnerable to priority users such as specs Ash-Greninja, which can OHKO bulky Volcarona after rocks after one QD is set up. Furthermore, this bulky Volcarona set fails to outspeed important scarf mons after a QD such as lando, which can come in and take any hit from it and force it back out to take even more damage from stealth rocks. Volcarona's vulnerability to stealth rocks requires consistent removal, often in the form of defog. This reduces Volcarona's ability as a sweeper because it results in your own entry hazards needed to wear down opposing Pokemon for a potential Volc sweep being removed or otherwise being difficult to keep up. This makes team building with Volcarona difficult, which is likely a reason for its low usage and win % in the most recent Smogon Snake Draft.
Perhaps the biggest reason why Volc shouldn't be in A+ is its tendency to be easily stopped by walls like Chansey (can toxic volc) and Toxapex (can shut down almost any Volcarona set and wear it down with toxic). If Volcarona opts to run psychium to get rid of pex, it is then walled completely by toxic Heatran. Heatran, Toxapex, and Chansey are all extremely common in terms of usage (they are 5, 7, and 8 respectively by the latest stats). Other pokemon in the A+ tier have far more utility or versatility (such as Rotom-W or Gliscor) or breaking power (such as Mega Medi) than Volcarona has the ability to sweep. Let me know if you guys have any other thoughts!
While I do agree with that volc is overrated as hell (A rank for a mon with a bunch of flaws that is useless offensively without setup), I still think that B+ is way too low. A- at most, and even then bulky volc is still pretty decent (though psychic Z is the best by far imo). It has uses on all team styles, and while some are a little bit niche, it's still very flexible when it comes to team styles it fits on.

Now back to where I agree with you, with balance becoming even more popular, a play style volcarona struggles with a lot, since most balances even run both/either pex or tran. Basically, it's a mon that requires a decent amount of team support while not doing anything until it comes in and starts setting up, and that is also almost completely useless against stall unless you get lucky with either them going pex on a +1 z psychic or by getting a bunch of fiery dance spatk boosts (who even runs that nowadays? Like I'm genuinely interested, cuz I've never seen it over blast).

BUT, this is where the bulky QD set comes in. With some investment, volc can actually check mega mawile on stall teams, which is in my opinion amazing. It's also complimented a lot by stall, since magic bounce + defog should keep most rocks away. It's status weakness is also hampered heavily, since you have support like magic bounce and heal bell/aromatherapy and a steel type to block/ remove toxic. I'd say that fat both wrecks and compliments volcarona heavily. (you could also say that it works on semi stall for the same reasons but I've never seriously use semi stall so I can't really comment).

Overall, while I used to be for a volc drop, after actually using it on fat, I've realized what it can do without boosts. I still think it's worse that all of the A rank mons (except for maybe mega tar, which is debatable but I still think tar is slightly better). I think that it's stuck in the limbo of A and A- but I do favor the A tier side so In my opinion volc should stay in A.

Holy shit, volc has autocorrected to volt so many times now that I just wanna die.
 
Last edited:

Colonel M

GAOOO
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
From here on out - if you're posting something from Unranked to Ranked and you lack a replay, I'm just going to infract you for it. No hesitation. I've edited the OP to also reflect this.

I can't believe I woke up to this mess.

And enough on Torkoal / Venusaur too. That went on a page way too long.

I think my nominations are sufficient, but I'll add in that Zard Y should raise to B. Zard Y has been able to fit in a few more archetypes, and while I stand by I think it was better in a meta with Dugtrio and a little less focus on Mega Lati@s, using Tran and Victini alongside it is pretty frightening.

I'm also just going to disagree with such a stark drop on Volcarona. You could maybe argue it's a little less effective now than it was in WCoP, but it still can Smash through a lot of teams with little effort. Weather teams fair a little better against Volcarona and usually a combo like Pex / Tran is enough to help combat it (or Ditto or Chansey), but it still shuts down a lot of teams under some specific circumstances. I'd maybe agree to a sub rank down, but not to B+ lmao.

I know some people questioned A+ Ash-Gren, but I still disagree with that too. While I agree Protean has gotten a bit better and should rise, Ash-Gren usually doesn't have as many dead matchups as some Pokemon do thanks to Spikes. There are also times where you could drop Spikes for Ice Beam to apply heavier pressure to Tapu Bulu. It still has a monumental effect on the metagame since it has forced many teams to have 1 or 2 responses to such a threat. Furthermore, rain archetypes really help solidify Ash-Gren in S IMO because it lets regular Greninja overwhelm some of its checks harder with Water-type STABs.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top