Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

Yo can we consider blacklisting Mimikyu discussion after next VR update? It's been like 5 VR updates where is has been asking for a drop, and everytime people throw out the same reasons as before: it is weak, overhyped, HO Webs are bad, NJNP is a fanboy (LUL), etc.

Also



From C to C+: Great balance breaker that hasn't moved in the VR since before the Arena Trap ban, the rise of AV Magearna and Bulu has favoured Nido quite a lot, since M-Venu is not that common and doesn't run EQ as often to check SG Magearna. It absorbs T-spikes which is always cool and appreciates the rise of Heatran and Ttar aswell. It is slow and has problems but still deserves to share rank with Volcanion and Manaphy.
 
Yo can we consider blacklisting Mimikyu discussion after next VR update? It's been like 5 VR updates where is has been asking for a drop, and everytime people throw out the same reasons as before: it is weak, overhyped, HO Webs are bad, NJNP is a fanboy (LUL), etc.

Also



From C to C+: Great balance breaker that hasn't moved in the VR since before the Arena Trap ban, the rise of AV Magearna and Bulu has favoured Nido quite a lot, since M-Venu is not that common and doesn't run EQ as often to check SG Magearna. It absorbs T-spikes which is always cool and appreciates the rise of Heatran and Ttar aswell. It is slow and has problems but still deserves to share rank with Volcanion and Manaphy.
I’d totally agree with this, Nido’s rise is in part due to its insane coverage which is able to fill gaps in any team’s offense that it can fit into.Additionally it works really well with Araquanid (yes I’ve been using them both for laddering so I’m kinda biased but hear me out) who has also been rising mainly for its sticky web sets which do wonders for speed control once Defoggers are gone.It also just so happens that Nidoking has the coverage to take down all the common Defoggers in two hits or less with its coverage such as Koko, Kart, Lando, Skarm, Gliscor etc.
 

Zokuru

The Stall Lord
is a Tiering Contributor
C+ to C- : Strongly Disagree

Well, that's a controversial opinion, first, I'm aware that Tapu Koko exists, and, in my opinion, Manectric is good because Koko exists in the metagame. I explain : Offense and Bulky Offense builds will often run Ferrothorn, Tapu Bulu, AV Magearna ( + A thing like ( scarf ) Lando for the Volt Switch Immunity ), or Tangrowth as an Electric check, Koko can't really break them unset it runs a very specific set ( HP Fire for Ferrothorn, Z Move Wild Charge / Nature's Madness for Magearna, Brave Bird for the others ), and the thing is that Tapu Koko is A+ Rank, so it means that every single team needs a check / counter. As you already noticed, Mega Manectric can abuse this by having at his disposal the fire move that Koko would really benefits to have ( I mean HP Fire is an option on Tapu Koko, there's a reason, being abused by Ferrothorn isn't great ).

My second argument is that the C+ Rank contains some really useless Pokemon in the current metagame, I mean who will play Charizard Y when everyone prepares for it + the Pokemon is completely shutdown by things like Toxapex or even Chansey ( which is trending on more and more non-Hard Stall builds ) + even offense have checks with the like of Lati@s and plenty of potent RKs. I won't even talk about putting Mega Manectric in the C- Rank, men do you really think Manectric is worst than Mega Camerupt or Mega Slowbro ( don't forget that Greninja is everywhere ). Now look at the B and B- ranks, there's planty of anti Stall niche options in it ( Mega Heracross, Reuniclus, Mega Gyarados, Tornadus-T etc ), but there's no ( or at least there's a few ) anti offense option. Why ? Because Offense is way more represented in this metagame and, consequently, anti offense options are way better.

That's why I think Mega Manectric with its high speed that allows it to outspeed Tapu Koko and Greninja-Ash ( especially worth on Psychic Terrain ), and being able to prevent your opponent to use Electric boosted moves with its Tapu Koko before you mega-evolve make it a really strong anti-meta option that does not need way more support than a Tapu Koko be put in work, that's why I think Manectric Mega deserves at least a B- rank, but a B rank would be ideal.
 
C+ --> B-
Hippowdon is actually a far more annoying threat to deal with on balance than most other threats in the lower ranks. As shown in p2 vs. poek's SPL week 2 game, Hippo is able to deal with powerful threats such as Koko, Lando, Zygarde, Tyranitar, AV Magearna, Mawile and Lopunny. Obviously its passiveness is well known, but a bulky Ground-type with reliable recovery and access to Stealth Rock makes Hippowdon a nice pick on balance teams that deserves far better than to be among the rest of the C ranks.
Just want to echo this because it didn't get much recognition or argument. Hippowdon is truly anti-meta: it's one of the few SR setters with reliable recovery, it often carries Toxic to effectively stall Zapdos, Landorus-T, and Tapu Bulu and it can swap in on loads of things that Landorus-T, Heatran, or Clefable can't. Swapping in on Tapu Koko/AV Magearna/Zapdos/Tyranitar is all but a sure bet, giving Hippowdon tons of opportunities to come in throughout the game and do its thing:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 180-212 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
56 SpA Magearna Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 192-228 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 120-142 (28.5 - 33.8%) -- 97.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tyranitar Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 142-168 (33.8 - 40%) -- 29.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This fact alone gives tons of teams problems, since they often rely on hitting Landorus-T on the switch with these surprise moves or living its EQ and killing it off. With Hippowdon in play, opponents need to find a way to safely swap in against its strong EQ and hit it with a strong Water/Grass/Ice attack and these holes are covered well by Hippo's friend Toxapex, who blocks AV Bulu, Ash Greninja and Rain attackers who somehow get Rain up amidst Hippow's Sandstorm. Additionally, Landorus-T, Zapdos and Tapu Bulu's dominance as Ground resists makes them prime targets for Toxic and when combined with Sandstorm Hippowdon can nullify their recovery options and whittle them down. Whirlwind is another move that Hippo can abuse, allowing it to push Defoggers and checks out of play or rack up hazard/weather damage to whittle down enemies.

Hippow's not perfect, it almost requires your team to be slower paced since it's fairly passive, which can be a liability to teams that rely on quick boosts. Unlike Landorus-T, it can't clear hazards, surprise the enemy with a Scarf set or muscle through enemies like Ferrothorn or Kartana as well. Since it's grounded, it needs hazard removal to be truly effective, and status absolutely tears it up. But if you can patch these holes you've got a solid teammate, and I think it fits appropriately amongst the other B- ranks for now.
 
Just want to echo this because it didn't get much recognition or argument. Hippowdon is truly anti-meta: it's one of the few SR setters with reliable recovery, it often carries Toxic to effectively stall Zapdos, Landorus-T, and Tapu Bulu and it can swap in on loads of things that Landorus-T, Heatran, or Clefable can't. Swapping in on Tapu Koko/AV Magearna/Zapdos/Tyranitar is all but a sure bet, giving Hippowdon tons of opportunities to come in throughout the game and do its thing:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 180-212 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
56 SpA Magearna Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 192-228 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 120-142 (28.5 - 33.8%) -- 97.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tyranitar Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 142-168 (33.8 - 40%) -- 29.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This fact alone gives tons of teams problems, since they often rely on hitting Landorus-T on the switch with these surprise moves or living its EQ and killing it off. With Hippowdon in play, opponents need to find a way to safely swap in against its strong EQ and hit it with a strong Water/Grass/Ice attack and these holes are covered well by Hippo's friend Toxapex, who blocks AV Bulu, Ash Greninja and Rain attackers who somehow get Rain up amidst Hippow's Sandstorm. Additionally, Landorus-T, Zapdos and Tapu Bulu's dominance as Ground resists makes them prime targets for Toxic and when combined with Sandstorm Hippowdon can nullify their recovery options and whittle them down. Whirlwind is another move that Hippo can abuse, allowing it to push Defoggers and checks out of play or rack up hazard/weather damage to whittle down enemies.

Hippow's not perfect, it almost requires your team to be slower paced since it's fairly passive, which can be a liability to teams that rely on quick boosts. Unlike Landorus-T, it can't clear hazards, surprise the enemy with a Scarf set or muscle through enemies like Ferrothorn or Kartana as well. Since it's grounded, it needs hazard removal to be truly effective, and status absolutely tears it up. But if you can patch these holes you've got a solid teammate, and I think it fits appropriately amongst the other B- ranks for now.
I like Hippo, it makes Specs Koko marginally less brainless to use and checks the myriad of threats you mentioned. However I don’t really know of any positive meta changes that would justify a rise. Rotom-W just rose back to OU, Bulu is on the rise and Kartana use is also up. Gliscor is also pretty common now and Defogs on you.


There needs to be serious meta changes for it to rise imo, more so than any other mon here because you must give up both the best mon in the tier Lando and it forces certain things onto your team (Zapdos comes to mind). I’m indifferent to a rise. It’s like advocating for Tentacruel while Pex is still in the tier.

I’m also hoping we can stop discussing Manectric, it just seems like there’s an inverse relation between how much time we spend talking about mons and their viability.
 
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I like Hippo, it makes Specs Koko marginally less brainless to use and checks the myriad of threats you mentioned. However I don’t really know of any positive meta changes that would justify a rise. Rotom-W just rose back to OU, Bulu is on the rise and Kartana use is also up. Gliscor is also pretty common now and Defogs on you.


There needs to be serious meta changes for it to rise imo, more so than any other mon here because you must give up both the best mon in the tier Lando and it forces certain things onto your team (Zapdos comes to mind). I’m indifferent to a rise.

I’m also hoping we can stop discussing Manectric, it just seems like there’s an inverse relation between how much time we spend talking about mons and their viability.
Good point on Gliscor/Rotom-W (though RW hates Toxic too). Imo there have been some pretty serious changes since anything happened with Hippow, it was C+ during regular SM and hasn't moved since USUM (compare current VR to here). With Zapdos and Tyranitar in particular becoming more prominent (not to mention everything else that's changed) I think that Hippowdon has a niche. Also, you don't have to give up Landorus-T to run Hippowdon, but they don't exactly have great synergy together since they share tons of weaknesses. Landorus-T checks some of the big gun physical attackers (Scarf Kartana, Lando-T/Zygarde/Garchomp, M-Lopunny) particularly those who use Ground/Fighting attacks and Hippowdon primarily checks weaker special and mixed attackers. It can't beat Zygarde like Landorus-T can. Freeing up a moveslot on Landorus-T where SR would usually go might even be helpful, allowing it to run a utility move like Knock Off, Toxic, SD or a Flying Z-move to bait grass types. Again, they're not a great core by any means, but I figured it's worth pointing out.
 
A+ -> S
(sudden, yes)
kartana is one of, if not, the best breaker in the tier and one of the most proficient in whatever you want it to do, a testament of such is how incredible it is as a choice scarf and band user. it's stupidly splashable, easy to use, brutally strong, almost nothing can actually stand up to sd variants because it has all the coverage it needs to invalidate most of its checks and the addition of knock off amplifies that fact. the best you can do against it, most of the time, is try and do a lot of smart switching into resistances, but nevertheless, it'll probably blast clean through you. the effect this pokemon has on the metagame is utterly undeniable; just the fact that some ferrothorns and landos are starting to run hp fire just so they aren't bait for kartana is definitive proof of such. trends like the prevalence of bulu, pex, tran, etc. all do nothing but bolster this mon's deadliness

i know i didn't say much, but everyone and their mother knows what kartana does and everyone should know how much of a menace this thing is. all in all, despite the few flaws that it has, kartana has cemented itself as a a prime candidate for S rank or at the very least, teetering on the edge.
 
A+ -> S
(sudden, yes)
kartana is one of, if not, the best breaker in the tier and one of the most proficient in whatever you want it to do, a testament of such is how incredible it is as a choice scarf and band user. it's stupidly splashable, easy to use, brutally strong, almost nothing can actually stand up to sd variants because it has all the coverage it needs to invalidate most of its checks and the addition of knock off amplifies that fact. the best you can do against it, most of the time, is try and do a lot of smart switching into resistances, but nevertheless, it'll probably blast clean through you. the effect this pokemon has on the metagame is utterly undeniable; just the fact that some ferrothorns and landos are starting to run hp fire just so they aren't bait for kartana is definitive proof of such. trends like the prevalence of bulu, pex, tran, etc. all do nothing but bolster this mon's deadliness

i know i didn't say much, but everyone and their mother knows what kartana does and everyone should know how much of a menace this thing is. all in all, despite the few flaws that it has, kartana has cemented itself as a a prime candidate for S rank or at the very least, teetering on the edge.
While it is the best wallbreaker in the tier, I'm not sure if it has anywhere near as much as versatility as Landorus-Therian, and it's not a defensive god like Toxapex is (Or even Defensive Landorus-Therian). It only has 1 playstyle and it's just really good at it. I think it's too close to the borderline for me to say definite yes too. Plus in terms of sweeping abilities, it's nowhere near as bad as Naganadel was. Keep Kartana A+
 
A+ -> S
(sudden, yes)
kartana is one of, if not, the best breaker in the tier and one of the most proficient in whatever you want it to do, a testament of such is how incredible it is as a choice scarf and band user. it's stupidly splashable, easy to use, brutally strong, almost nothing can actually stand up to sd variants because it has all the coverage it needs to invalidate most of its checks and the addition of knock off amplifies that fact. the best you can do against it, most of the time, is try and do a lot of smart switching into resistances, but nevertheless, it'll probably blast clean through you. the effect this pokemon has on the metagame is utterly undeniable; just the fact that some ferrothorns and landos are starting to run hp fire just so they aren't bait for kartana is definitive proof of such. trends like the prevalence of bulu, pex, tran, etc. all do nothing but bolster this mon's deadliness

i know i didn't say much, but everyone and their mother knows what kartana does and everyone should know how much of a menace this thing is. all in all, despite the few flaws that it has, kartana has cemented itself as a a prime candidate for S rank or at the very least, teetering on the edge.
I strongly disagree with this nom. Kartana is a great Mon, yes, but it doesn't have the meta defining presence of the S rank mons. Lando is extremely adaptable and can fit on almost any team, while Pex is on pretty much every bulky team right now as it just walls half the tier. Kartana doesn't have that sort of presence. It's scarf set is extremely good, however has the flaw that every move it has is awful to be locked into, and the lack of variety it has in its moveset means it has hard checks/counters that not afraid of it at all, such as MScizor. Band has the same problem with locking into moves with awful coverage, although the extra power helps somewhat. SD has the flaw of its slightly underwhelming speed tier and abysmal special defense makes it extremely easy to revenge for any offensive team, although it can be problematic for offense it's mostly going to be taking down one mon of your opponents choice even if you play it well. It's special bulk is so bad that scarf can't reliably revenge ash gren as it fears water shuriken so badly (it has a chance to KO after 1 layer of spikes). It also has to be played very carefully around Volcarona or you can get swept with ease. I feel its flaws are too notable for it to be compared to the meta defining threats in S that almost every team will have a problem with when, dependant on its set, it generally struggles with a team archtype.
 
A+ -> S
(sudden, yes)
kartana is one of, if not, the best breaker in the tier and one of the most proficient in whatever you want it to do, a testament of such is how incredible it is as a choice scarf and band user. it's stupidly splashable, easy to use, brutally strong, almost nothing can actually stand up to sd variants because it has all the coverage it needs to invalidate most of its checks and the addition of knock off amplifies that fact. the best you can do against it, most of the time, is try and do a lot of smart switching into resistances, but nevertheless, it'll probably blast clean through you. the effect this pokemon has on the metagame is utterly undeniable; just the fact that some ferrothorns and landos are starting to run hp fire just so they aren't bait for kartana is definitive proof of such. trends like the prevalence of bulu, pex, tran, etc. all do nothing but bolster this mon's deadliness

i know i didn't say much, but everyone and their mother knows what kartana does and everyone should know how much of a menace this thing is. all in all, despite the few flaws that it has, kartana has cemented itself as a a prime candidate for S rank or at the very least, teetering on the edge.
I completely disagree with this nomination. Band and Z-move sets get outsped by so many key threats right now like Mega Lopunny, Weavile, Tapu Koko, and many more strong special attackers. It could honestly afford a drop imo
 
I completely disagree with this nomination. Band and Z-move sets get outsped by so many key threats right now like Mega Lopunny, Weavile, Tapu Koko, and many more strong special attackers. It could honestly afford a drop imo
Ok while I do disagree with a kartana rise, it should absolutely not drop. It is a metagame defying wallbreaker that has no reliable defensive counterplay, one of the only viable offensive defoggers, and an amazing scarfer that unlike a lot of scarfers, is not deadweight against balance because of defog. I disagree with a rise but kartana should not drop. It’s easy to gas up all of its bad qualities on paper, but all of its amazing qualities make it absurdly powerful pokemon. There is a reason it has 25% usage in spl.
 

Colonel M

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I completely disagree with this nomination. Band and Z-move sets get outsped by so many key threats right now like Mega Lopunny, Weavile, Tapu Koko, and many more strong special attackers. It could honestly afford a drop imo
Just to solidify against this, Kartana is way too good for the likes of A.

Kartana, both Z and Scarf, are fairly effective as cleaners, especially late game. There aren't many teams that pack a lot of great Kartana counters at the moment, and many of these threats that you mentioned aren't even used as much right now (Mega Lopunny and Weavile???). Kartana breaks apart a lot of balance teams and teams either crumple or fold to SD Z-Crystal very often.
 
I strongly disagree with this nom. Kartana is a great Mon, yes, but it doesn't have the meta defining presence of the S rank mons. Lando is extremely adaptable and can fit on almost any team, while Pex is on pretty much every bulky team right now as it just walls half the tier. Kartana doesn't have that sort of presence. It's scarf set is extremely good, however has the flaw that every move it has is awful to be locked into, and the lack of variety it has in its moveset means it has hard checks/counters that not afraid of it at all, such as MScizor. Band has the same problem with locking into moves with awful coverage, although the extra power helps somewhat. SD has the flaw of its slightly underwhelming speed tier and abysmal special defense makes it extremely easy to revenge for any offensive team, although it can be problematic for offense it's mostly going to be taking down one mon of your opponents choice even if you play it well. It's special bulk is so bad that scarf can't reliably revenge ash gren as it fears water shuriken so badly (it has a chance to KO after 1 layer of spikes). It also has to be played very carefully around Volcarona or you can get swept with ease. I feel its flaws are too notable for it to be compared to the meta defining threats in S that almost every team will have a problem with when, dependant on its set, it generally struggles with a team archtype.
On the fence about this, cuz while its for shure a really metagame defining pokemon, nothing really changed since last rise to make it S, and neither of his sets are S by their own, like, its in part kartana's imprevisibility that makes it so good.
 
I think we have gotten to a point where we can recognize all of Kartana’s sets as being A+ worthy, but none of its sets break into the S range. I think its silly how this mon was basically considered UU levels at the beginning of SM, it was always one of my favorite mons, and I appreciate how people no longer consider it lower B tier, but its not ready for S. Similar arguments have been made for the likes of Koko, Mag, Ash gren, and zygarde recently, but none of them have crossed the plateau into S, I dont see why Kartana should either.

Its counters are all too common: zapdos, scarf zone, lati@s w hp fire, (ash) greninja, hawlucha/koko, volcarona, lopunny, etc. Sure, none of these are perfect, and may have trouble with an untimely substitute/SD, but they do the job. If Kartana were more potent, we would also be seeing an uptick in the amount of people playing Mega Venu, charY, mega hera, dragonite, alola maro, and mega mane, but the fact that these are all declining in usage, to the point where half the kartana counters are nearing/are UU by usage goes to show that this mon isnt worthy of S tier.

But god damn do I love it. Really cool mon that unfortunately has gotten a little stale now that everyone uses it and all its sets are all too common.
 
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bludz

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Actually the decline of 'mons like that are a good reason that Kartana could rise if anything, since that means good counterplay is less common. It's extremely difficult to stop defensively, and Zapdos isn't exactly a perfect answer, espeically because speedy 3 attacks variants are better than Defog ones:

+2 252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 308-363 (80.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

(Zapdos should actually be around 82% after switching in, taking Rocks, and gaining Leftovers recovery as Kartana SDs, but the roll is still massively in the Kartana user's favor)

Kartana's two main sets' viability are mutually beneficial. Scarf is a threatening late game sweeper and SD is a really good breaker. If you switch out fearing Scarf into a defensive answer and they SD, you could be in trouble. Vice versa is also true, staying in to prevent SD and then getting bopped also leads to problems. Ultimately even when you know the set, it can be a challenge to deal with since it has really good coverage, finds ample setup opportunity (SD sets) and the addition of Knock Off has been a great boon for Kartana.

Not to mention it offers great utility in Defog while not being susceptible to Toxic Spikes (which may not be as popular as they once were, but still) and hard countering Ferrothorn, one of the best Spikers. The splashability of Bulu for terrain support is a pretty nice trend in favor of it, while it also takes advantage of Celesteela favoring SpD, speedy Zapdos, and generally some of its offensive checks being less viable than before (i.e. Diancie, Zard Y, so forth). Admittedly some of these things aren't the newest trends but nonetheless Kartana's been continually getting better ever since Mega Meta left, particularly a little bit right before USUM dropped. I definitely support a rise to S, I think both of its main sets are pretty meta defining and dangerous.
 
Actually the decline of 'mons like that are a good reason that Kartana could rise if anything, since that means good counterplay is less common. It's extremely difficult to stop defensively, and Zapdos isn't exactly a perfect answer, espeically because speedy 3 attacks variants are better than Defog ones:

+2 252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 308-363 (80.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

(Zapdos should actually be around 82% after switching in, taking Rocks, and gaining Leftovers recovery as Kartana SDs, but the roll is still massively in the Kartana user's favor)

Kartana's two main sets' viability are mutually beneficial. Scarf is a threatening late game sweeper and SD is a really good breaker. If you switch out fearing Scarf into a defensive answer and they SD, you could be in trouble. Vice versa is also true, staying in to prevent SD and then getting bopped also leads to problems. Ultimately even when you know the set, it can be a challenge to deal with since it has really good coverage, finds ample setup opportunity (SD sets) and the addition of Knock Off has been a great boon for Kartana.

Not to mention it offers great utility in Defog while not being susceptible to Toxic Spikes (which may not be as popular as they once were, but still) and hard countering Ferrothorn, one of the best Spikers. The splashability of Bulu for terrain support is a pretty nice trend in favor of it, while it also takes advantage of Celesteela favoring SpD, speedy Zapdos, and generally some of its offensive checks being less viable than before (i.e. Diancie, Zard Y, so forth). Admittedly some of these things aren't the newest trends but nonetheless Kartana's been continually getting better ever since Mega Meta left, particularly a little bit right before USUM dropped. I definitely support a rise to S, I think both of its main sets are pretty meta defining and dangerous.
I agree with Kart being S. It’s absolutely the best breaker in the tier and as you said the presence of Scarf means the checks and counters vary wildly without even taking into account the variety of Z-moves it can run. Unlike Landorus and Pex I think Kartana elicits an “oh shit” response quite often game to game, where it just surprises you and blows your team away. It’s something I think about heavily when building these days because it’s just that strong. The meta is very kind to it right now, and while I don’t think it’s necessarily a long term S resident I think it could go into S until at least the next tier shift. If Kartana isn’t an S-ranked offensive threat then I genuinely don’t know what is, it just brings so much to the table, seriously what more could you possibly want from an offensive mon.

Meta shifts have really helped it, Gliscor is rising and gets obliterated, Rotom is back in OU and AV Bulu helps you more than it hinders you. The fact that HP-fire Ferro is even remotely considered a legitimate set is telling of how threatening Kartana is.
 
I agree with Kart being S. It’s absolutely the best breaker in the tier and as you said the presence of Scarf means the checks and counters vary wildly without even taking into account the variety of Z-moves it can run. Unlike Landorus and Pex I think Kartana elicits an “oh shit” response quite often game to game, where it just surprises you and blows your team away. It’s something I think about heavily when building these days because it’s just that strong. The meta is very kind to it right now, and while I don’t think it’s necessarily a long term S resident I think it could go into S until at least the next tier shift. If Kartana isn’t an S-ranked offensive threat then I genuinely don’t know what is, it just brings so much to the table, seriously what more could you possibly want from an offensive mon.

Meta shifts have really helped it, Gliscor is rising and gets obliterated, Rotom is back in OU and AV Bulu helps you more than it hinders you. The fact that HP-fire Ferro is even remotely considered a legitimate set is telling of how threatening Kartana is.
This is true, but we must ask ourselves, Is kartana really on Toxapex’s or Lando’s level? Kartan also doesn’t have the versatility that Lando has, or Toxapexs extreme walling abilities while also being near mandatory on balance? Kartana making Pokémon run sub-optimal moves doesn’t mean it should be S. Just look at Volcarona, it forces Blacephalon to run explosion and it isn’t even A+. Kartana is an amazing pokemon, but it isn’t S worthy imo.
E: 1_TrickPhony Bludzs argument was that Ferrothorn seriously running hp fire is showing how influential Kartana is, which makes him think that Kartana is s rank worthy.
 
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Actually the decline of 'mons like that are a good reason that Kartana could rise if anything, since that means good counterplay is less common. It's extremely difficult to stop defensively, and Zapdos isn't exactly a perfect answer, espeically because speedy 3 attacks variants are better than Defog ones:

+2 252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 308-363 (80.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

(Zapdos should actually be around 82% after switching in, taking Rocks, and gaining Leftovers recovery as Kartana SDs, but the roll is still massively in the Kartana user's favor)

Kartana's two main sets' viability are mutually beneficial. Scarf is a threatening late game sweeper and SD is a really good breaker. If you switch out fearing Scarf into a defensive answer and they SD, you could be in trouble. Vice versa is also true, staying in to prevent SD and then getting bopped also leads to problems. Ultimately even when you know the set, it can be a challenge to deal with since it has really good coverage, finds ample setup opportunity (SD sets) and the addition of Knock Off has been a great boon for Kartana.

Not to mention it offers great utility in Defog while not being susceptible to Toxic Spikes (which may not be as popular as they once were, but still) and hard countering Ferrothorn, one of the best Spikers. The splashability of Bulu for terrain support is a pretty nice trend in favor of it, while it also takes advantage of Celesteela favoring SpD, speedy Zapdos, and generally some of its offensive checks being less viable than before (i.e. Diancie, Zard Y, so forth). Admittedly some of these things aren't the newest trends but nonetheless Kartana's been continually getting better ever since Mega Meta left, particularly a little bit right before USUM dropped. I definitely support a rise to S, I think both of its main sets are pretty meta defining and dangerous.
So the thing is that if this mon was S tier worthy, the meta would take the effort shift to counter it, would it not? And there are so many viable counters, and mons that are "non-viable" that would become viable should Kartana be the S level threat that Lando and Pex are. And we would see a lot more hidden power fires than we do. Its ubiquitous but there are enough answers that you don't really need a Kartana answer similar to what we saw with Naga, and it doesn't have the role compression that Lando does. Maybe we are just splitting hairs, I think a better thing to do with it is give all the sets the viability they deserve in sets viability to A+ and band to A.
 
A+ -> S
(sudden, yes)
kartana is one of, if not, the best breaker in the tier and one of the most proficient in whatever you want it to do, a testament of such is how incredible it is as a choice scarf and band user. it's stupidly splashable, easy to use, brutally strong, almost nothing can actually stand up to sd variants because it has all the coverage it needs to invalidate most of its checks and the addition of knock off amplifies that fact. the best you can do against it, most of the time, is try and do a lot of smart switching into resistances, but nevertheless, it'll probably blast clean through you. the effect this pokemon has on the metagame is utterly undeniable; just the fact that some ferrothorns and landos are starting to run hp fire just so they aren't bait for kartana is definitive proof of such. trends like the prevalence of bulu, pex, tran, etc. all do nothing but bolster this mon's deadliness

i know i didn't say much, but everyone and their mother knows what kartana does and everyone should know how much of a menace this thing is. all in all, despite the few flaws that it has, kartana has cemented itself as a a prime candidate for S rank or at the very least, teetering on the edge.
Actually the decline of 'mons like that are a good reason that Kartana could rise if anything, since that means good counterplay is less common. It's extremely difficult to stop defensively, and Zapdos isn't exactly a perfect answer, espeically because speedy 3 attacks variants are better than Defog ones:

+2 252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 308-363 (80.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

(Zapdos should actually be around 82% after switching in, taking Rocks, and gaining Leftovers recovery as Kartana SDs, but the roll is still massively in the Kartana user's favor)

Kartana's two main sets' viability are mutually beneficial. Scarf is a threatening late game sweeper and SD is a really good breaker. If you switch out fearing Scarf into a defensive answer and they SD, you could be in trouble. Vice versa is also true, staying in to prevent SD and then getting bopped also leads to problems. Ultimately even when you know the set, it can be a challenge to deal with since it has really good coverage, finds ample setup opportunity (SD sets) and the addition of Knock Off has been a great boon for Kartana.

Not to mention it offers great utility in Defog while not being susceptible to Toxic Spikes (which may not be as popular as they once were, but still) and hard countering Ferrothorn, one of the best Spikers. The splashability of Bulu for terrain support is a pretty nice trend in favor of it, while it also takes advantage of Celesteela favoring SpD, speedy Zapdos, and generally some of its offensive checks being less viable than before (i.e. Diancie, Zard Y, so forth). Admittedly some of these things aren't the newest trends but nonetheless Kartana's been continually getting better ever since Mega Meta left, particularly a little bit right before USUM dropped. I definitely support a rise to S, I think both of its main sets are pretty meta defining and dangerous.
A+ to S: Agree
Kartana is a beast in OU right now. Kartana is a very good sweeper. Lets see what it can do...
+2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 668-786 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 307-363 (96.2 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+3 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Gliscor: 385-454 (109.3 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 283-334 (94 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 440-522 (112.5 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I actually use this thing a lot and I had moments where it swept an entire team. Too bad I can not find them.
Also that typing is amazing, despite being weak to fire by times four.
It resists nine common types and it is only weak to two ( Fire and Fighting ).
Not being able to get leech seeded and harmed by toxic ( unless you use Salazzle ) as bludz earlier is actually really good, and that 181 attack stat is really good. It also offers a nice defense stat of 131 and an somewhat solid speed stat of 109. It does have S tier potential in my opinion.
 
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Actually the decline of 'mons like that are a good reason that Kartana could rise if anything, since that means good counterplay is less common. It's extremely difficult to stop defensively, and Zapdos isn't exactly a perfect answer, espeically because speedy 3 attacks variants are better than Defog ones:

+2 252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 308-363 (80.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

(Zapdos should actually be around 82% after switching in, taking Rocks, and gaining Leftovers recovery as Kartana SDs, but the roll is still massively in the Kartana user's favor)

Kartana's two main sets' viability are mutually beneficial. Scarf is a threatening late game sweeper and SD is a really good breaker. If you switch out fearing Scarf into a defensive answer and they SD, you could be in trouble. Vice versa is also true, staying in to prevent SD and then getting bopped also leads to problems. Ultimately even when you know the set, it can be a challenge to deal with since it has really good coverage, finds ample setup opportunity (SD sets) and the addition of Knock Off has been a great boon for Kartana.

Not to mention it offers great utility in Defog while not being susceptible to Toxic Spikes (which may not be as popular as they once were, but still) and hard countering Ferrothorn, one of the best Spikers. The splashability of Bulu for terrain support is a pretty nice trend in favor of it, while it also takes advantage of Celesteela favoring SpD, speedy Zapdos, and generally some of its offensive checks being less viable than before (i.e. Diancie, Zard Y, so forth). Admittedly some of these things aren't the newest trends but nonetheless Kartana's been continually getting better ever since Mega Meta left, particularly a little bit right before USUM dropped. I definitely support a rise to S, I think both of its main sets are pretty meta defining and dangerous.
I know i said I absolutely disagre
I completely disagree with this nomination. Band and Z-move sets get outsped by so many key threats right now like Mega Lopunny, Weavile, Tapu Koko, and many more strong special attackers. It could honestly afford a drop imo
ok, i know i said I absolutely disagree with the nom last night...but I've been trying it more and it really think that is S worthy now... with the right team and support, this thing is damn near unstoppable. It tears through balance and stall and choice band's damage output is just unfair. Even the Bulkiest pokemon in the tier like Ferrothorn and Toxapex fall to the blade. You really can't afford to gove this thing free tirns or else it will SD and it's gg.
 
While it is the best wallbreaker in the tier, I'm not sure if it has anywhere near as much as versatility as Landorus-Therian, and it's not a defensive god like Toxapex is (Or even Defensive Landorus-Therian). It only has 1 playstyle and it's just really good at it. I think it's too close to the borderline for me to say definite yes too. Plus in terms of sweeping abilities, it's nowhere near as bad as Naganadel was. Keep Kartana A+
I know this a few posts old, but it seems to be the counter-argument to S with the most support. And in general has a statement I'd like to talk about in this and future noms. Namely: "it's nowhere near as bad as Naganadel was"

All this means is that Kartana isn't ban-worthy, which I wholeheartedly agree with. As an argument not to raise something, it's kind of shoddy and nonsensical. By that logic Lando-T shouldn't be S because it's not as bad as Primal-Groudon. S doesn't mean ban-worthy. S also doesn't mean that it completely breaks a meta, like a Naganadel.

In the future, I feel like using "this Mon shouldn't rise cause it's not as bad as [insert Ubers Mon]" should not be used or taken seriously.

All that being said, I am undecided on Kartana but would lean slightly to a rise.
 

Jordy

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Kartana going to S rank seems hot rn and i really like the free likes i can get from it. (THANKS IN ADVANCE!)

-> S disagree
I do believe that Kartana the best Pokemon in A+ is, and it can definitely be compared to Landorus-T and Toxapex in terms of effectiveness, it is very splashable, with the recent exploration of Life Orb I think Kartana got better, Life Orb boosted Knock Off basically breaks what dark-z does at +2 and a boosted Sacred Sword is nothing to laugh at either. Its Choice Scarf set is arguably the best scarfer in the tier considering how good it is at what it does, the role compression that it provides is very nice, it works very well as a Knock Off user and is a surprisingly effective Defogger. However, its sets do all have flaws that can be exploited, SD is relatively lacking in speed and is prone to being revenge killed. Scarf is very hard to pivot around but once its locked itself into a move u should have an answer to that specific move, always.

Despite this, I don't think that Kartana should be S rank, and I know that what im going to propose is very frowned upon but I'd like to propose for a viability ranking system such as ubers:
ubers op said:
The Pokemon in the sub-ranks are fully ordered by viability, rather than alphabetical order.
this gives an easier insight to players on how viable the Pokemon is compared to the other Pokemon in [said sub-rank] rank. We could also make an S- rank but, that is really stupid lmao.
 
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