Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

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135+ Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 140-166 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
My friend, that is the complete opposite of beating Toxapex.

I really don't see what those replays show. Avalugg didn't do shit in any of them. I'm even less convinced it should be ranked after watching them, since it was sacked in half of them The most noteworthy thing it did was force out Lando-T and lure a Heatran. In order for something to be ranked, it must show it can preform a specific niche that nothing else already ranked can preform. All these replays have shown me is that it can do a job that can be done by half the shit already ranked.
 
why would i not just use defog skarm it walls everything u mentioned + also has sturdy + doesn't lose to every special attacker

also why would i not just use defog sciz also walls everything u mentioned

edit: ok i'll make this post worth posting

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--> B-
Azu's been a slept on threat for a while now with its Sap Sipper Perish Trap set, and I think it should rise because of how consistent it is at its job. Nearly every passive mon in ou has to watch out beacuse it just gets a kill if it traps something. And its not like it can't come in on anything either; fairy water with sap sipper lets it switch in multiple times in a match, and each time it comes in it kills something at best and chips something with 25% (whirlpool + protect) at worst. I think this was initially misplaced since there weren't any major meta changes that benefitted Azu since usum's release.

@ below fr what does avalugg beat that mega sciz doesn't im seriously thinking about this and not coming up with anything also avalugg has to deal with rocks which makes their bulk kind of similar.

edit 2 i found it! sd fire fang but not firium z garchomp b/c firium beats avalugg wow thats a huge threat
 
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why would i not just use defog skarm it walls everything u mentioned + also has sturdy + doesn't lose to every special attacker

also why would i not just use defog sciz also walls everything u mentioned
They are not the same, and take on different mons. It's preference. And defog scizor is actually a good option! but again, the matchups are different and lugg is wayyyyyy bulkier. like its not even close
 
Alright, before I respond what's your elo and gxe? B/c I will explain but I need to know who I'm talking to. Bc ngl, I think you're low ladder tbh and a child
This reply is toxic and shows that you really don't have any counter points to the argument that avalugg doesn't fulfill any niche another pokemon cannot. Also, implying ladder points mean anything anymore. top kek. Also holly shit so many one liners avalugg gona get the big blacklist hammer like that. Also, avalugg is ass and doesn't even check k-b cause of earth power/hp fire/even ice beam destroying it. This is just another example of a pokemon that looks coolio on paper and might do decent vs a few teams but ultimately falls flat. People love to jump on a UR nom and just say YEA! THAT'S COOL! A PU MON ON THE VR!!11!! But never use or acknowledge this piece of shit ever again and let it drop to ur the next month.

Anyways, since I'm not gona be a toxic ass and just make a one liner I'm gonna leave thoughts on some current discussions:
Stated this before but I'm in full support of tapu koko to s-.
This pokemon has few switch ins and the few pokemon that can reliably come in can be dispatched by common teammates, going to make a list of checks and checks to the checks. Ferrothorn gets dispatched by hp fire variants, magnezone, medicham, pinsir (if chipped), hawlucha (has to be weary of setting up on twave variants), hp fire kyrum-black, etc. Magerna is prone to getting chipped down due to a teammate in bulu being it's best form of recovery and is also beaten by common fighting types listed above that deal with magerna with a strong neutral hit (lopunny, medicham, hawlucha (if chipped down enough), takes a large chunk from zone, etc. Av bulu gets dispatched by hawlucha and is often denied it's horn leech recovery by pokemon such as ferrothorn, celesteela, kartana (which threatens it out) and above teammates such as k-b and pinsir. Landorous isn't a check. Hippowdown is fairly unprepared for on many Koko teams, which is why it's so underated and deserves b- but is susceptible to k-b and repeated switch ins with hazards up, also uturn koko can pivot into greninja etc.
Despite my post responding to a post about av magerna, I do think magerna has a place in s-.
SG/OTR mag is amazing in the meta right now, with it's only reliable check being itself, with the Av set. The av set is still a very nice blanket wall to many special attackers. Not much to add but while the magerna love train is so big I might as well pitch in and fully endorse this nom.
Stakataka to C is interesting, it's def. comparable to other b- poke's but also struggles to break common cores and toxapex. On the fence about this one. It does require team support such as magnezone/lures to be effective, but it does do well vs offense. On the fence but maybe drop it to C+ until further meta changes support/make this mon worse in the metagame.
 

Yung Dramps

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Sorry for the one-liner, but I can't help but think people are just nominating random low-tier PU shit for a rank just for the sake of having random low-tier PU shit being ranked in the OU Viability list. I mean, yeah, I guess it's kinda funny, but if you're going to apply reasoning like "your gxe sucks so your opinion doesn't matter" to refute claims that your PU nom isn't outclassed by other mons in the tier, that isn't a good sign.

Can we stop this phenomenon? It started with Stunfisk, now it's Avalugg. Who knows where it'll go? Before you know it, people will be hyping up Pikachu electric spam or something like that
 
Sorry for the one-liner, but I can't help but think people are just nominating random low-tier PU shit for a rank just for the sake of having random low-tier PU shit being ranked in the OU Viability list. I mean, yeah, I guess it's kinda funny, but if you're going to apply reasoning like "your gxe sucks so your opinion doesn't matter" to refute claims that your PU nom isn't outclassed by other mons in the tier, that isn't a good sign.

Can we stop this phenomenon? It started with Stunfisk, now it's Avalugg. Who knows where it'll go? Before you know it, people will be hyping up Pikachu electric spam or something like that
I simply meant to ask b/c he/she didnt see obvious subtleties and what having the lugg there did and what it did do. If they were high ladder itd be a short answer, if they werent itd be a lot longer
 

Finchinator

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Stop discussing Avalugg and stop applying any form of personal assessment, judgement, or criticism in this thread. The latter is especially important and if it continues will likely result in serious infraction. I do not care if the intent is genuine at this point.
 
That was a fun read...

I'd like to nominate
Excadrill B to B+. Excadrill is a great mon to use for a number of reasons and I was surprised to see it ranked below Rotom-W, Keldeo, M-Venusaur and M-Sableye, but rather alongside Reuniclus and Gastrodon. The reason I think Excadrill is better than this is because it has a number of roles that it performs very effectively; whereas these mons all have only one they do well or possibly two roles that they fulfill decently, like M-Sableye only being viable on stall, or Keldeo being a decent Scarfer and stallbreaker.

Excadrill is an awesome Suicide lead thanks to Mold Breaker preventing Magic Bounce, as well as an OK speed tier with great attack and good typing, with Rapid Spin. It can do work against a lot of common setters/leads in the tier right now. Toxic Def Lando/Spin Rocks away, OHKO Heatran, Toxic and set vs Sableye, OHKO Diance, does like 80% to Pex. It also puts in work against some defoggers too, Zapdos hates Toxic, Rotom-W takes like 85% from EQ and Latios 75%. This may not seem 'amazing' but remember this is a B rank suicide lead doing all this work, yes I know Lando is better, but there is a reason he is S rank and also he doesn't have Mold Breaker, which is more than good niche, you can also kill Mimikyu through Disguise, so thats nice.

Hippowdon is rising up lately so we now have two very good, reliable sand setters with this and Tyranitar. Sand Rush Excadrill is excellent, Life Orb and Swords Dance allows this thing to hit so goddamn hard and its backed up by 604 speed in sand, outspeeding the entire meta. The main reason to use this right now has got to be vs KokoLucha, you can set up in the face of Koko, as it cannot 2HKO you no matter what set and Hawlucha goes down to a +2 Iron Head, obviously you outspeed them both in Sand. Revenge killing Koko, Volcarona, SG Magearna, Lele, Kyurem-B, M-Lopunny, M-Medicham, M-Mawile, M-Pinsir and on and on is amazing (a few require some hazard chip, but luckily this is very easy with Sand). Its also is a great hazard clearer, being immune to Toxic and resistant to Rocks, as well as having the advantage over Defog of leaving hazards on your opponents side. It can also use Z-Crystals to break past bulky checks in conjunction with Iron Head or Rock Slide, this also pairs great with Lele to avoid priority and Lele can bust down physical walls that can get in the way of a sweep. Without sand you still outspeed max speed Heatran and Mamoswine which is nice, two more threats which are very prominent as of late.

Choice Scarf is actually also pretty good to revenge kill and late game sweep. Its similar to Sand Rush but having access to Mold Breaker is nice and obviously its speed isn't reliant on Sand, this is definitely its worst set, not revenging +1 Volc, but its definitely not the worst option I've seen for Scarf with great Attack and STAB. A lot of the good things about this set have already been covered above.

There's a lot of things I haven't gone over. Although I feel that Excadrill was underrated in B anyway; recent trends like KokoLucha and the rise of Hippowdon make this thing a B+ rank threat, mainly for the first two sets I talked about.
 
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That was a fun read...

I'd like to nominate
Excadrill B to B+. Excadrill is a great mon to use for a number of reasons and I was surprised to see it ranked below Rotom-W, Keldeo, M-Venusaur and M-Sableye, but rather alongside Reuniclus and Gastrodon. The reason I think Excadrill is better than this is because it has a number of roles that it performs very effectively; whereas these mons all have only one they do well or possibly two roles that they fulfill decently, like M-Sableye only being viable on stall, or Keldeo being a decent Scarfer and stallbreaker.

Excadrill is an awesome Suicide lead thanks to Mold Breaker preventing Magic Bounce, as well as an OK speed tier with great attack and good typing, with Rapid Spin. It can do work against a lot of common setters/leads in the tier right now. Toxic Def Lando/Spin Rocks away, OHKO Heatran, Toxic and set vs Sableye, OHKO Diance, does like 80% to Pex. It also puts in work against some defoggers too, Zapdos hates Toxic, Rotom-W takes like 85% from EQ and Latios 75%. This may not seem 'amazing' but remember this is a B rank suicide lead doing all this work, yes I know Lando is better, but there is a reason he is S rank and also he doesn't have Mold Breaker, which is more than good niche, you can also kill Mimikyu through Disguise, so thats nice.

Hippowdon is rising up lately so we now have two very good, reliable sand setters with this and Tyranitar. Sand Rush Excadrill is excellent, Life Orb and Swords Dance allows this thing to hit so goddamn hard and its backed up by 604 speed in sand, outspeeding the entire meta. The main reason to use this right now has got to be vs KokoLucha, you can set up in the face of Koko, as it cannot 2HKO you no matter what set and Hawlucha goes down to a +2 Iron Head, obviously you outspeed them both in Sand. Revenge killing Koko, Volcarona, SG Magearna, Lele, Kyurem-B, M-Lopunny, M-Medicham, M-Mawile, M-Pinsir and on and on is amazing (a few require some hazard chip, but luckily this is very easy with Sand). Its also is a great hazard clearer, being immune to Toxic and resistant to Rocks, as well as having the advantage over Defog of leaving hazards on your opponents side. It can also use Z-Crystals to break past bulky checks in conjunction with Iron Head or Rock Slide, this also pairs great with Lele to avoid priority and Lele can bust down physical walls that can get in the way of a sweep. Without sand you still outspeed max speed Heatran and Mamoswine which is nice, two more threats which are very prominent as of late.

Choice Scarf is actually also pretty good to revenge kill and late game sweep. Its similar to Sand Rush but having access to Mold Breaker is nice and obviously its speed isn't reliant on Sand, this is definitely its worst set, not revenging +1 Volc, but its definitely not the worst option I've seen for Scarf with great Attack and STAB. A lot of the good things about this set have already been covered above.

There's a lot of things I haven't gone over. Although I feel that Excadrill was underrated in B anyway; recent trends like KokoLucha and the rise of Hippowdon make this thing a B+ rank threat, mainly for the first two sets I talked about.
I don't really think that Excadrill needs a raise, to be honest. Excadrill is still a pretty niche pick in the current metagame, and while certain metagame trends do benefit it, I don't think this is enough to justify a raise.
The suicide lead set is good, but like you mentioned, it faces a lot of competition from Landrous Therian. Landrous can also get up rocks against Mega Sabeleye by pressuring it with SD, and it also prevents enemies from getting hazards and defogging with Explosion. Mimikyu really isn't too relevant anymore, so I don't think this is a major selling point.
Sand Rush is one of those things that sound great on paper, but in practice, it doesn't always execute effectively. It definitely does great against Koko, but against Hawlucha, it isn't really a great countermeasure. No good Hawlucha user will let you set up to +2, it will just OHKO you with High Jump Kick, (not to mention that some actually run speed creep Sand Rush Excadrill.) And it isn't very easy to chip Hawlucha into Iron Heads range.
252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. +1 152 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 148-175 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO. Hippowdon rising is also a double-edged sword; while it is a good teammate, it also walls Excadrill. (Mega) Tyranitar is also getting worse. Back to the point, Excadrill isn't that good at removing hazards; it loses to most relevant hazard setters such as Landorus Therian, (Ash) Greninja, and Ferrothorn. The only real relavent hazard setter that it beats is Heatran. Z crystals also come with hefty opportunity cost, by using it, you cannot run terrifying breakers such as Hoopa-U and Kartana, nor even more powerful win cons such as Magearna and Volcarona. Revenge killing Heatran and Mamoswine isn't a highly unique thing either, plenty of offensive pokemon can revenge kill both of them. Sand Rush Excadrill also gets hard walled by a lot of bulkier builds that plague the meta.
The Scarf Set faces a lot of the same issues as the Sand Rush set, but it faces an even bigger problem. It is almost completely outclassed by Landorus Therian. Landorus hits harder isn't a momentum sink because of U-Turn, and can also Defog hazards away.
One final note I don't really find Excadrill on the same level as the B+ mons such as Tornadus Therian, Alakazam, and Pelliper. It also certainly isn't above Mamoswine. I think Excadrill is right at home with niche mons that can be dangerous in the right matchup such as Blacephalon and Alomomola.
 

Finchinator

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Few things:
  • Tapu Fini is a bit better than Mantine when it comes to being a Water type remover, especially given that it is not entirely passive and SR weak to begin with. Tapu Fini has seen a couple successful uses this SPL and has a pretty distinguished niche as a temporary check to a number of offensive threats with Misty Terrain support and a strong support movepool whereas Mantine you never really see anymore. I think that we should at LEAST drop Mantine to B-, but I can see us moving Tapu Fini to B, too. Either or is fine.
  • Mega Latios and Tornadus-T are two B+ Pokemon that have pretty good cases to move up to A-. Both have been seeing pretty regular usage as of late and for good reason as well. The former applies pretty steady pressure offensively and can also function as even more of a lure with HP Fire or as support with Defog as a lot of people have been dropping Draco lately. In addition, it is one of the best Heatran answers and when paired with Magnezone the only thing that actually checks it is (sort of) Clefable. As for Tornadus-T, this thing is just flat out solid with the Z-Hurricane Defog set and it has seen a steady rise in popularity over the past month or two. I feel that A- is simply most representative of where it sits in the current metagame now that it has settled a bit as opposed to B+ due to having nuke potential, speed, Regenerator, and a number of offensive options at its disposal.
  • Hoopa should probably drop from A- to B+. It actually stands out as clearly the worst A- Pokemon to me and while it isn’t necessarily that bad, it has never been easy to use and there isn’t too much of a reason to go out of your way to fit it nowadays given the speed tier it has. Thankfully it has a number of redeeming qualities going for it offensively such as movepool, attacking stats, and ability to pull off a number of sets, but no set stands out and it never really fits on trendy archetypes, let alone many builds in general, so I just do not see it meshing with the standard and don’t think it should hang in an A subrank until it catches on some more.
 
Few things:
  • Tapu Fini is a bit better than Mantine when it comes to being a Water type remover, especially given that it is not entirely passive and SR weak to begin with. Tapu Fini has seen a couple successful uses this SPL and has a pretty distinguished niche as a temporary check to a number of offensive threats with Misty Terrain support and a strong support movepool whereas Mantine you never really see anymore. I think that we should at LEAST drop Mantine to B-, but I can see us moving Tapu Fini to B, too. Either or is fine.
  • Mega Latios and Tornadus-T are two B+ Pokemon that have pretty good cases to move up to A-. Both have been seeing pretty regular usage as of late and for good reason as well. The former applies pretty steady pressure offensively and can also function as even more of a lure with HP Fire or as support with Defog as a lot of people have been dropping Draco lately. In addition, it is one of the best Heatran answers and when paired with Magnezone the only thing that actually checks it is (sort of) Clefable. As for Tornadus-T, this thing is just flat out solid with the Z-Hurricane Defog set and it has seen a steady rise in popularity over the past month or two. I feel that A- is simply most representative of where it sits in the current metagame now that it has settled a bit as opposed to B+ due to having nuke potential, speed, Regenerator, and a number of offensive options at its disposal.
  • Hoopa should probably drop from A- to B+. It actually stands out as clearly the worst A- Pokemon to me and while it isn’t necessarily that bad, it has never been easy to use and there isn’t too much of a reason to go out of your way to fit it nowadays given the speed tier it has. Thankfully it has a number of redeeming qualities going for it offensively such as movepool, attacking stats, and ability to pull off a number of sets, but no set stands out and it never really fits on trendy archetypes, let alone many builds in general, so I just do not see it meshing with the standard and don’t think it should hang in an A subrank until it catches on some more.
Absolutely agree with the Mega Latios rise. There is no way the other mons in B+ compare to M-Lati, namely regular Lati, which currently is an absolute downgrade from Mega. I'd like to see the distinction between the two.

Also agree with Tornadus-T to A-. Enough has been said about how useful its become in meta trends.

If I could make a nom of my own:<br />
<br />
Tangrowth: B+ -> B

Honestly its pretty outclassed by Tapu Bulu as an AV user in every way, along with the rise of Z-Hurricne Tornadus-T things aren't really looking up for it. It's way too passive, and cannot dent mons like Bulu can through Nature's Madness, meaning that every switch in to Bulu will be dented. Tangrowth also has pretty bad four move slot syndrome, running hp ice means it can't hit steel types like ferrothorn and seizor for shit. And running hp fire means u can't hit Land-T or Zygarde for much. It's time to make this mon fall.

Gengar B -> B+

I made this nom in the past, basically its still in my opinion the best ghost type in the tier, and what with the rise of Z-Hex and other new sets I think it is much more worthy of B+ than B.
 
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Absolutely agree with the Mega Latios rise. There is no way the other mons in B+ compare to M-Lati, namely regular Lati, which currently is an absolute downgrade from Mega. I'd like to see the distinction between the two.

Also agree with Tornadus-T to A-. Enough has been said about how useful its become in meta trends.

If I could make a nom of my own:<br />
<br />
Tangrowth: B+ -> B

Honestly its pretty outclassed by Tapu Bulu as an AV user in every way, along with the rise of Z-Hurricne Tornadus-T things aren't really looking up for it. It's way too passive, and cannot dent mons like Bulu can through Nature's Madness, meaning that every switch in to Bulu will be dented. Tangrowth also has pretty bad four move slot syndrome, running hp ice means it can't hit steel types like ferrothorn and seizor for shit. And running hp fire means u can't hit Land-T or Zygarde for much. It's time to make this mon fall.

Gengar B -> B+

I made this nom in the past, basically its still in my opinion the best ghost type in the tier, and what with the rise of Z-Hex and other new sets I think it is much more worthy of B+ than B.
Not a huge point, but the distinction between Mega-Latios and regular is the opportunity cost of running an item; and also it taking your team's one mega-slot. While I do agree Mega is better now, for a long time it was considered even only 'OU by technicality' because Latios could run Scarf, Life Orb and Specs in Gen 6 and it was much more effective than Mega, however I believe the use of Earthquake being valuable has tipped the balance.
 
Not a huge point, but the distinction between Mega-Latios and regular is the opportunity cost of running an item; and also it taking your team's one mega-slot. While I do agree Mega is better now, for a long time it was considered even only 'OU by technicality' because Latios could run Scarf, Life Orb and Specs in Gen 6 and it was much more effective than Mega, however I believe the use of Earthquake being valuable has tipped the balance.
Sorry I meant a distinction in terms of tiers. Just not to be a one-liner, the ability to use earthquake is a huge boon for the viability of Mega Lati over regular Lati
 
Few things:
  • Tapu Fini is a bit better than Mantine when it comes to being a Water type remover, especially given that it is not entirely passive and SR weak to begin with. Tapu Fini has seen a couple successful uses this SPL and has a pretty distinguished niche as a temporary check to a number of offensive threats with Misty Terrain support and a strong support movepool whereas Mantine you never really see anymore. I think that we should at LEAST drop Mantine to B-, but I can see us moving Tapu Fini to B, too. Either or is fine.
  • Mega Latios and Tornadus-T are two B+ Pokemon that have pretty good cases to move up to A-. Both have been seeing pretty regular usage as of late and for good reason as well. The former applies pretty steady pressure offensively and can also function as even more of a lure with HP Fire or as support with Defog as a lot of people have been dropping Draco lately. In addition, it is one of the best Heatran answers and when paired with Magnezone the only thing that actually checks it is (sort of) Clefable. As for Tornadus-T, this thing is just flat out solid with the Z-Hurricane Defog set and it has seen a steady rise in popularity over the past month or two. I feel that A- is simply most representative of where it sits in the current metagame now that it has settled a bit as opposed to B+ due to having nuke potential, speed, Regenerator, and a number of offensive options at its disposal.
  • Hoopa should probably drop from A- to B+. It actually stands out as clearly the worst A- Pokemon to me and while it isn’t necessarily that bad, it has never been easy to use and there isn’t too much of a reason to go out of your way to fit it nowadays given the speed tier it has. Thankfully it has a number of redeeming qualities going for it offensively such as movepool, attacking stats, and ability to pull off a number of sets, but no set stands out and it never really fits on trendy archetypes, let alone many builds in general, so I just do not see it meshing with the standard and don’t think it should hang in an A subrank until it catches on some more.
Agree with what you said about Tornadus, Mega Latios, and Hoopa, But I don’t think Mantine should drop.
For one Mantine is in my opinion a much better Pokemon than Tapu Fini. For one, Mantine is a much more reliable blanket check than Fini thanks to a reliable recovery move. Mantine also appreciates the fact that Z Move Lando is quite rare these days, allowing to completely shut Lando down if it does not have Toxic or Stone Edge. Of course Mantine is outclassed by Toxapex But Fini also has this problem. I would be okay with Fini in B but Mantine should not drop to the level of Skarmory, Terrakion, and Serperior.
I would like to nominate Mew to B+. Mew is good ATM thanks to a number of Meta Trends. Mega Medicham is amazing atm, and Mew is one of Medichams only reliable switch ins. Hawlucha is also a monster right now and Mew is a really solid check to it with Ice Beam and Will-O-Wisp. In addition, Pokemon Mew hates such as Blacephalon, Hoopa U, and both Ttar forms are losing viability. Lando is very rarely running offensive z move sets right now, meaning Mew can run more defensive EVs to check Zygarde better. I also think Mew is better than the B mons except for Mamoswine and maybe Mega Gyarados.
 

Decem

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Agree with what you said about Tornadus, Mega Latios, and Hoopa, But I don’t think Mantine should drop.
For one Mantine is in my opinion a much better Pokemon than Tapu Fini. For one, Mantine is a much more reliable blanket check than Fini thanks to a reliable recovery move. Mantine also appreciates the fact that Z Move Lando is quite rare these days, allowing to completely shut Lando down if it does not have Toxic or Stone Edge. Of course Mantine is outclassed by Toxapex But Fini also has this problem. I would be okay with Fini in B but Mantine should not drop to the level of Skarmory, Terrakion, and Serperior.
I think Mantine and Tapu Fini should be on the same rank and here's why: On one side you have a Defogger with reliably recovery and on the other side you have another Defogger with utility moves such as taunt and unique attributes to its success, good examples being misty terrain and natures madness. While Mantine does support the team very well with its Defogging capacities, its passiveness plays a huge factor in inconsistency. Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, and Chansey come in for free on it while it uses up a turn to pull off Defog and do whatever they want to Mantine, whether it be getting a hit off with Choice Band, crippling it with Toxic or other status moves, or setting up hazards once more. This is where Tapu FIni's offensive moves and Taunt come in. With Taunt and moves such as Moonblast, Tapu Fini is able to hit Pokemon such as Hawlucha and Tyranitar for super effective damage while using taunt to ensure that Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Chansey think twice before clicking their hazards/leech seed and other Pokemon such as Zygarde from setting up. Nature's Madness also splits whatever feels like coming in on Tapu Fini, a move that can be used in conjunction with Taunt for stallbreaking. Putting that to the side, a huge thorn in Tapu Fini's success is its lack of reliable recovery, something that Mantine obviously has over Tapu Fini, and a trait that should not be overlooked when you are looking for a defogger with more longevity. Tapu Fini has to switch out if it fears a strong attack or any attack that may possibly chip its HP too low, another effect of its lack of reliable recovery.

These two Defoggers, each unique in their own attributes should be ranked the same, whether it be B or B-. Mantine lacks traits that Tapu Fini has in Taunt, Natures Madness, and Misty Terrain while Tapu Fini lacks what Mantine gets from reliable recovery in Roost. There is no "preferred Defogger" on any team, it truely depends on what kind of team you are using before you choose whether you use Tapu Fini or Mantine, as they are both bulky Water-type Defoggers that check Ash Greninja. With all that being said, I believe that Mantine and Tapu Fini should be ranked alongside one another.

gengy should go to b+ btw
 
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This is pretty much my last nomination, as after ouprl Im peacing tf outta here. Also #FreeAvalugg
Anyway ..... I nominate the emo bird Jesus himself, Staraptor, to go from UR -> C+/B-
1521062093123.png
To be honest, I don't know why he isn't on there considering how many teams get swept by it, but I digress. Not only does this mon okos most of the offensive mons in the tier (running adamant scarf) its pretty useful reckless stabs are easily spammable. Oking keldeo, greninja. ttar, torn, latios, kartana after rocks, lele, bulu, koko,venu, etc etc. Fun fact it actually has the chance to survive a hjk from hawlucha. itll oko back :)

Now the common ignorance surrounding bird is that it dies too easily, to which I actually agree; it does, but it usually takes out 2-3 mons with it. It has 80bhp, idk what people think its taking out with bb/de. With moves like final gambit, uturn, close combat and even the tech heat wave, you can cater to your needs. Or, if you're feeling brave, run ran and just reck shit. Many teams fear the raptor, as they should as the scarf set recks offense and the band recks balance.


As per usual, here are the high ladder replays of raptor; tbh, watching raptor sweep is really boring and most ppl quit when their lando dies.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-714882218
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-713659534 - embarrassing wecameasromans and having raptor EAT EAT
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-709988173 - raptor just abusing this team,
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-709950450 - damage
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-707620185 - even with resisted damage it kept clef from coming in bc it 2hkos easily

Not to mention that you can force the lando to come in and exploit that. Most teams answer to raptor is just lando and its taking a big chunk of it, way more if banded. So if you come in dont be afraid to make that double. People think lando is invincible.
 
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wow i actually somewhat agree with omari p

i think the biggest thing staraptor has going for it is the lack of reliable flying switch ins in OU, and this has been proven through the recent rise in tornadus. the fact is that most flying resists in the tier either a) lack recovery (magearna, celesteela, mega mawile), b) get o/2hkod by double edge (rotom-w, zapdos, koko) or c) get o/2hkod by close combat (heatran, ttar). this makes staraptor kind of hard to switch into defensively as most things are just chipped down so that later staraptor can just come in again and click its stabs to clean. u turn also makes celesteela and skarmory shaky switch ins. i've only toyed around with scarf staraptor

i'll close this post with some calcs that staraptor brings to the table
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 255-301 (90.7 - 107.1%) -- 4, 3.8% chance to OHKO

-1 252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 160-190 (50.1 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 117-138 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- 48.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 253-298 (66 - 77.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 396-468 (115.4 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 306-361 (107.3 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

these calcs show that scarf staraptor can revenge kill shit pretty easily and can also weaken fat stuff.
 
wow i actually somewhat agree with omari p

i think the biggest thing staraptor has going for it is the lack of reliable flying switch ins in OU, and this has been proven through the recent rise in tornadus. the fact is that most flying resists in the tier either a) lack recovery (magearna, celesteela, mega mawile), b) get o/2hkod by double edge (rotom-w, zapdos, koko) or c) get o/2hkod by close combat (heatran, ttar). this makes staraptor kind of hard to switch into defensively as most things are just chipped down so that later staraptor can just come in again and click its stabs to clean. u turn also makes celesteela and skarmory shaky switch ins. i've only toyed around with scarf staraptor

i'll close this post with some calcs that staraptor brings to the table
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 255-301 (90.7 - 107.1%) -- 4, 3.8% chance to OHKO

-1 252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 160-190 (50.1 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 117-138 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- 48.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 253-298 (66 - 77.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 396-468 (115.4 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 306-361 (107.3 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

these calcs show that scarf staraptor can revenge kill shit pretty easily and can also weaken fat stuff.
LOL I run +attack too bc i dont like those chances not to oko. but ya thats the general point. All those mons dont have a lot of hp either. Let the bird jesus free


P.S. - you agree bc unlike avalugg ur not ignorant of what it can do and actually used it lol. this is what we need on this thread.
 
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This is pretty much my last nomination, as after ouprl Im peacing tf outta here. Also #FreeAvalugg
Anyway ..... I nominate the emo bird Jesus himself, Staraptor, to go from UR -> C+/B-
To be honest, I don't know why he isn't on there considering how many teams get swept by it, but I digress. Not only does this mon okos most of the offensive mons in the tier (running adamant scarf) its pretty useful reckless stabs are easily spammable. Oking keldeo, greninja. ttar, torn, latios, kartana after rocks, lele, bulu, koko,venu, etc etc. Fun fact it actually has the chance to survive a hjk from hawlucha. itll oko back :)

Now the common ignorance surrounding bird is that it dies too easily, to which I actually agree; it does, but it usually takes out 2-3 mons with it. It has 80bhp, idk what people think its taking out with bb/de. With moves like final gambit, uturn, close combat and even the tech heat wave, you can cater to your needs. Or, if you're feeling brave, run ran and just reck shit. Many teams fear the raptor, as they should as the scarf set recks offense and the band recks balance.


As per usual, here are the high ladder replays of raptor; tbh, watching raptor sweep is really boring and most ppl quit when their lando dies.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-714882218
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-713659534 - embarrassing wecameasromans and having raptor EAT EAT
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-709988173 - raptor just abusing this team,
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-709950450 - damage
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-707620185 - even with resisted damage it kept clef from coming in bc it 2hkos easily

Not to mention that you can force the lando to come in and exploit that. Most teams answer to raptor is just lando and its taking a big chunk of it, way more if banded. So if you come in dont be afraid to make that double. People think lando is invincible.
This I can get behind. Staraptor only has a few checks in the current metagame; and ik while magnezone isn't in those replays; it's notable that it takes out every threat to staraptor defensively. Raptor is prone to getting worn down and killing itself, but that's nothing team support can't fix. Tbh I gotta agree with the fact that I have no idea why this mon isn't ranked, better than half the dogshit in c- and c.
Also, gona nom Mega Camerupt to C+.
Mega camel has been a sleeper on the VR for a while now; but there's some meta-trends that benefit it as of recently.
Mega Camel's typing might not seem like an advantage with muh 4x weakness, but it's typing allows it to come in on rising threats such as celesteela if it's not leech seeding, magerna as it doesn't fear volt switch or fleur, comes in on the rising zapdos, comes in on the very prevalent koko, can eat a hit from tran and come in on a fire move, comes in on a non-set up volcarona, and comes in on clefable.
Aside from obviously being a great rocker for getting rocks up on most of those pokemon; it also breaks common defensive cores like lando-mag, celepex, ferropex, heatran+bulu gets dicked by this mon, and just in general annoys teams that use tran/pex as muh fire resist.
Camel is comparable to other C+ fire types such as marowak and charizard-y, but it's important to note that it requires far less support than these pokemon when it comes down to needing SR removed. While it doesn't break stall like marowak does; it does get up rocks vs stall because sableye can't switch in. this is noticeably the best pokemon in C and it's rise is long overdue. This pokemon is far more at home among C+ mons; and even arguably a better fire type than both zard-y and marowak due to being a reliable TR rocker as well as a mon that can reliably break toxapex/landorous.
 
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Gross Sweep

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My spring break has officially started, so while I have time for Smogon forums outside of rating teams I figure I might as well give my thoughts on a couple of the recent nominations.

Hoopa-U is one of those mons I always think is great on paper, yet when it comes to applying it and achieving consistent results it's a different story. While Hoopa has a few solid sets, and is a great breaker, it just fails to produce on a lot of teams. It tends to struggle outside of VoltTurn, in my experience, since hard switching in vs anything that could potentially use a physical move (and god forbid U-turn) is often risking a lot. Since Hoopa really needs to come into the game and nab one as often as possible the amount of reliance it has on slower volt-turn is often hard manage given that Hoopa also has fairly lackluster speed. This issue with speed is very evident vs offensive teams who usually have 3-4 mons who out pace Hoopa, and have no issues forcing it out, causing you to sack or take some chip in the process hurting your chances of winning too often for the subsequent reward of Hoopa's power.

As a team rater I consistently find myself looking at Hoopa-U, and thinking to myself something along the lines of "wow, why did they not put something like Lele here instead" which is not good for a mon ranked A-. I'll note that Hoopa is still usable, and with the right team support/match up it can be a terror to play against. However, the sheer amount of teams it just can't work on is troubling enough that B+ is definitely more fitting than A- in my eyes. I believe something that high up on the VR should be a bit more splashable.

I am starting to appreciate this mon more and more, after a few solid months of despising it and every team that used it. I would definitely agree it's a better bulky water than Mantine in terms of what it checks, and from a momentum standpoint. Mantine has always been a great Volcarona answer, but with that big moth's usage on the decline as of late it's role has been diminished. Making way for Fini who similarly checks Ash Gren and can Defog, but finds a bit more utility as it's not weak to Rocks and even helps vs Zygarde which Mantine had trouble doing if Zygarde's packing Substitute. Fini also is a bit more multidimensional since it's not forced to run one set like Mantine. Fini has the common stall breakish set with Taunt, Nature's Madness, Moonblast, and Defog; it can also drop Taunt for water stab if preferred. Or you could go in a different direction and run a trapper set with Whirlpool giving fini a decent amount of versatility that will make a good player be a bit more cautious around Fini early on, which just isn't something people have to do vs Mantine. Fini also isn't as big of a momentum suck as Mantine, which helps it fit on both balance and bulky offensive teams, which Mantine can't really do.

Never thought I'd see myself supporting Fini at any point in this meta, but right now I'd prefer if Fini rose to B and Mantine dropped to B-.

and
Doubling up here since I support both of these mons rising for similar reasons. When I look at the current OU tier it's in a place where I just find myself looking for good flying resists and I'm really struggling. So many people are using something like Tapu Koko as there main flying check, and when they come face to face with a mon like Tornadus with so many coverage options, or Raptor with solid high power fighting and normal type attacks it's not hard to chip down and break through. Zapdos is a better answer, and can be troubling, but Zapdos doesn't have the usage at this point to be enough of a factor to stop these two from rising. I will say these two don't capitalize on this lack of good flying resists as much as Hawlucha does, but the rises to A- and C+ respectively still make a lot of sense to me.

Tried to keep this fairly short, and while there are other discussion points like Tapu Koko that interest me I feel enough discussion on those have taken place to at the very least make it's way onto the next voting docket (This is my subtle way of telling council to vote on Koko soon). Anyway that's all I got, hope it wasn't to boring to read.
 
B2115FD1-B813-4543-A8B2-8F91666A4AB0.png
Manaphy from C+ to C.
Manaphy has completely fallen from any of the glory and power it has in SM OU. Manaphy’s main niche as a wallbreaker is near obsolete nowadays for a number of reasons, such as an enormous amount of better options for wallbreakers. Examples include Tapu Lele, Kartana, and even Keldeo. This isn’t the worst part however.
Manaphy is near deadweight in pretty much every matchup. Against Offense, it is very difficult to come in as Manaphy can not check any Pokémon commonly found on offense except for Heatran and Landorus Therian. Even then, Manaphy absolutely needs a turn to set up to pose a threat to any team. This gives your opponents time to switch into a revenge killer such as Tapu Koko and especially, Kartana. Even if you attack them on the switch, Kartana does not get OHKOed and Scald does only 50%. Against Offense, best case scenario, you get 1 kill, and at worst, you are a momentum drain.
Against defensive teams, where Manaphy is supposed to be good against, Manaphy is terrible against Balance and Stall. Against Stall, good luck getting past Chansey and against Balance, you aren’t breaking any balanced team with Ferrothorn and AV Bulu being so god damn common.
Unless if you are willing to build around such a inconsistent, shitty breaker, Manaphy is never worth using and it’s rank should reflect this.
Drop the prince of the sea, it’s worse than every Pokémon in C+, even Zard Y and Mega Manetric. It is definitely not on par with Hippowdon.
 
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Nuked

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I'm echoing peoples' thoughts but I just wanted to say that Tornadus-T definitely deserves a rise, I've been using it a lot as of late and it's an amazing offensive Pokemon that can really do anything that your team needs. It's so fast too, outspeeding pre-Unburden Hawlucha and Kartana. Overall a really solid Pokemon right now that I can see becoming top tier again to be honest, like it was in ORAS.
 

Volcarona A+ ---> A

1. Volcarona is currently #45 by usage in OU and for a good reason. I haven't seen a Volcarona sweep for like a month. Volcarona can be dangerous, yes, but it is very inconsistent and match up reliant. It won't sweep if you don't manage to clear entry hazards, any team with Chansey or Mantine is safe against Volcarona, it can't break both Pex and Heatran (which are now really common), it is revenge killed by scarf Keldeo and scarf Greninja and it is vulnerable to priority such as Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack and Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken. Also stuff like Thunder Wave Mew and Thunder Wave Ferrothorn (which is pure evil btw) started appearing, which means it is harder for Volcarona to set up on Pokemon it used to before. You might say that Volcarona sets up on Kartana, one of the best Pokemon in the tier. And yes, it sets up on Kartana, but only on the scarf variant. If you switch in on SD Kartana as it sword dances, you die to +2 AOP. So setting up on Kartana is quite risky and you have to scout its set before attempting to do so.
2. If you're building a team with Volcarona, you need to build the team AROUND Volcarona, you can't just slap it on a team. And most of the time it requires so much support that it almost isn't worth using. First off, you need a consistent hazard remover that can come in multiple times and guarantee that Stealth Rock will be gone. Then you need something that can remove either Pex or Heatran depending if your Volcarona set is Psychium-Z or HP Ground. And lastly you need to take care of anything that's able to revenge kill Volc before you attempt a sweep.
3. The current ranking doesn't reflect Volcarona's performance compared to some Pokemon in lower ranks. I know it isn't really comparable to Hawlucha, but both of these Pokemon have a similar role, they're late game sweepers. So I'll compare them anyways lol. Hawlucha (currently in A rank) requires terrain support, but it is much easier to sweep with it than with Volc because:

A) Setting up terrain is easier than removing entry hazards and it isn't a momentum drain.
B) It can't be revenge killed by scarfers.
C) It has fewer counters than Volcarona (physically defensive Zapdos and Hippowdon, Koko is just a check).
D) It sets up on the most overused Pokemon in the tier.

It doesn't really make sense to me why is Hawlucha ranked lower than Volcarona when it is much more consistent at its job and is easier to fit on teams.
4. The popularity of rain teams is really annoying for Volcarona.

For these reasons I think Volcarona is currently the worst Pokemon in A+ and should drop.
 

Volcarona A+ ---> A

1. Volcarona is currently #45 by usage in OU and for a good reason. I haven't seen a Volcarona sweep for like a month. Volcarona can be dangerous, yes, but it is very inconsistent and match up reliant. It won't sweep if you don't manage to clear entry hazards, any team with Chansey or Mantine is safe against Volcarona, it can't break both Pex and Heatran (which are now really common), it is revenge killed by scarf Keldeo and scarf Greninja and it is vulnerable to priority such as Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack and Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken. Also stuff like Thunder Wave Mew and Thunder Wave Ferrothorn (which is pure evil btw) started appearing, which means it is harder for Volcarona to set up on Pokemon it used to before. You might say that Volcarona sets up on Kartana, one of the best Pokemon in the tier. And yes, it sets up on Kartana, but only on the scarf variant. If you switch in on SD Kartana as it sword dances, you die to +2 AOP. So setting up on Kartana is quite risky and you have to scout its set before attempting to do so.
2. If you're building a team with Volcarona, you need to build the team AROUND Volcarona, you can't just slap it on a team. And most of the time it requires so much support that it almost isn't worth using. First off, you need a consistent hazard remover that can come in multiple times and guarantee that Stealth Rock will be gone. Then you need something that can remove either Pex or Heatran depending if your Volcarona set is Psychium-Z or HP Ground. And lastly you need to take care of anything that's able to revenge kill Volc before you attempt a sweep.
3. The current ranking doesn't reflect Volcarona's performance compared to some Pokemon in lower ranks. I know it isn't really comparable to Hawlucha, but both of these Pokemon have a similar role, they're late game sweepers. So I'll compare them anyways lol. Hawlucha (currently in A rank) requires terrain support, but it is much easier to sweep with it than with Volc because:

A) Setting up terrain is easier than removing entry hazards and it isn't a momentum drain.
B) It can't be revenge killed by scarfers.
C) It has fewer counters than Volcarona (physically defensive Zapdos and Hippowdon, Koko is just a check).
D) It sets up on the most overused Pokemon in the tier.

It doesn't really make sense to me why is Hawlucha ranked lower than Volcarona when it is much more consistent at its job and is easier to fit on teams.
4. The popularity of rain teams is really annoying for Volcarona.

For these reasons I think Volcarona is currently the worst Pokemon in A+ and should drop.
Wholly disagree with this. Usage and viability isn't the same thing, look at Reuniclus is BL2 yet B in the rankings. Yes, recently a lot of Pokemon are carrying tech versus Volcarona. Thunder Wave Ferro and Mew are both fairly uncommon and OHKO'd at +1, also Volcarona can just boost twice and even the speed out.

Volcarona lives Mawiles Sucker Punch and Water Shuriken at +1. It can also break either Pex or Heatran with Psychium Z or HP [Ground]. So, with this Keldeo is also pretty bad right now and SEdge is carried only sometimes and exclusively for Volc. Revenge killing options, while present aren't as detrimental to its viability as you present.

Sure it needs hazard removal, but Defog is currently more splashable than it ever has been in the history of the meta. Volcarona has extremely little competition for its role as a special sweeper, with amazing STAB and Quiver Dance being probably the best set up move in the meta. Rain teams also are really not popular or effective in the higher ladder.

The difference with Hawlucha is that it can only set up once, if it's phased out it is dead weight, Volcarona can repeatedly set up without rocks and isn't reliant on terrain, if your Tapu goes down you're forced to use Hawlucha on the remaining terrain. Not to mention it shares a similar weakness to priority and Volcarona is graced by being a special attacker, with physical walls being more common and it can also break common special walls like AV Magearna, AV Bulu, AV Tangrowth and Toxapex.
 
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