Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Volcarona A+ ---> A

1. Volcarona is currently #45 by usage in OU and for a good reason. I haven't seen a Volcarona sweep for like a month. Volcarona can be dangerous, yes, but it is very inconsistent and match up reliant. It won't sweep if you don't manage to clear entry hazards, any team with Chansey or Mantine is safe against Volcarona, it can't break both Pex and Heatran (which are now really common), it is revenge killed by scarf Keldeo and scarf Greninja and it is vulnerable to priority such as Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack and Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken. Also stuff like Thunder Wave Mew and Thunder Wave Ferrothorn (which is pure evil btw) started appearing, which means it is harder for Volcarona to set up on Pokemon it used to before. You might say that Volcarona sets up on Kartana, one of the best Pokemon in the tier. And yes, it sets up on Kartana, but only on the scarf variant. If you switch in on SD Kartana as it sword dances, you die to +2 AOP. So setting up on Kartana is quite risky and you have to scout its set before attempting to do so.
2. If you're building a team with Volcarona, you need to build the team AROUND Volcarona, you can't just slap it on a team. And most of the time it requires so much support that it almost isn't worth using. First off, you need a consistent hazard remover that can come in multiple times and guarantee that Stealth Rock will be gone. Then you need something that can remove either Pex or Heatran depending if your Volcarona set is Psychium-Z or HP Ground. And lastly you need to take care of anything that's able to revenge kill Volc before you attempt a sweep.
3. The current ranking doesn't reflect Volcarona's performance compared to some Pokemon in lower ranks. I know it isn't really comparable to Hawlucha, but both of these Pokemon have a similar role, they're late game sweepers. So I'll compare them anyways lol. Hawlucha (currently in A rank) requires terrain support, but it is much easier to sweep with it than with Volc because:

A) Setting up terrain is easier than removing entry hazards and it isn't a momentum drain.
B) It can't be revenge killed by scarfers.
C) It has fewer counters than Volcarona (physically defensive Zapdos and Hippowdon, Koko is just a check).
D) It sets up on the most overused Pokemon in the tier.

It doesn't really make sense to me why is Hawlucha ranked lower than Volcarona when it is much more consistent at its job and is easier to fit on teams.
4. The popularity of rain teams is really annoying for Volcarona.

For these reasons I think Volcarona is currently the worst Pokemon in A+ and should drop.
You are just stating all of Volcarona obvious flaws and calling that reasoning as a drop. That would be like me saying that Landorus Therian is slow, easy to revenge kill, and is matchup-reliant because everyone prepares for it, and that is why it should drop to A+. All of those factors were taken into account when ranking Volcarona. You could argue that Volcarona is overrated in A+, but you haven’t done anything to say that either.
Scarf Keldeo is non existent because how it is deadweight against any team with Toxapex. You would also have to be foolish to try and sweep in the range of those priority moves, as none of them OHKO. Even then, Volcarona would have made an irreparable hole in the opponents team, making it very easy for other Pokémon to clean up.
Thunder Wave Mew and TWaveFerrothorn are really non existent outside of lower ladder. Especially in the formers case.
Also kind of a Side note that Volcarona is actually extremley threatening to rain as it can easily set up two quiver dances and sweep the opposing team.
You also argue that Hawlucha is better than volcarona, which isn’t nessecarily a bad argument, but I think it would more sense to give Hawlucha a raise.
Keep Volcarona in A+.
 
Last edited:

Volcarona A+ ---> A

1. Volcarona is currently #45 by usage in OU and for a good reason. I haven't seen a Volcarona sweep for like a month. Volcarona can be dangerous, yes, but it is very inconsistent and match up reliant. It won't sweep if you don't manage to clear entry hazards, any team with Chansey or Mantine is safe against Volcarona, it can't break both Pex and Heatran (which are now really common), it is revenge killed by scarf Keldeo and scarf Greninja and it is vulnerable to priority such as Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack and Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken. Also stuff like Thunder Wave Mew and Thunder Wave Ferrothorn (which is pure evil btw) started appearing, which means it is harder for Volcarona to set up on Pokemon it used to before. You might say that Volcarona sets up on Kartana, one of the best Pokemon in the tier. And yes, it sets up on Kartana, but only on the scarf variant. If you switch in on SD Kartana as it sword dances, you die to +2 AOP. So setting up on Kartana is quite risky and you have to scout its set before attempting to do so.
2. If you're building a team with Volcarona, you need to build the team AROUND Volcarona, you can't just slap it on a team. And most of the time it requires so much support that it almost isn't worth using. First off, you need a consistent hazard remover that can come in multiple times and guarantee that Stealth Rock will be gone. Then you need something that can remove either Pex or Heatran depending if your Volcarona set is Psychium-Z or HP Ground. And lastly you need to take care of anything that's able to revenge kill Volc before you attempt a sweep.
3. The current ranking doesn't reflect Volcarona's performance compared to some Pokemon in lower ranks. I know it isn't really comparable to Hawlucha, but both of these Pokemon have a similar role, they're late game sweepers. So I'll compare them anyways lol. Hawlucha (currently in A rank) requires terrain support, but it is much easier to sweep with it than with Volc because:

A) Setting up terrain is easier than removing entry hazards and it isn't a momentum drain.
B) It can't be revenge killed by scarfers.
C) It has fewer counters than Volcarona (physically defensive Zapdos and Hippowdon, Koko is just a check).
D) It sets up on the most overused Pokemon in the tier.

It doesn't really make sense to me why is Hawlucha ranked lower than Volcarona when it is much more consistent at its job and is easier to fit on teams.
4. The popularity of rain teams is really annoying for Volcarona.

For these reasons I think Volcarona is currently the worst Pokemon in A+ and should drop.

I strongly disagree with this. Volcorona has a way to by pass each of it's defensive checks bar mantine. Volc gets Hp ground, can use Psy Z and with fiery dance it can put constant pressure on chansey until it can kill it. What I see is more of an argument that hawlucha should rise than an argument that volc can drop. I would also like to mention that it can only be revenged by faster Scarfers so due to it's speed tier of 100 it can tie with many of them or outspeed them. I would actully say volc may be a far bit better due to keldeo slowly meeting it's demise. It is also hard for some of the revenge killers to actully revenge kill volc as it lives a water shuriken due to the SPdef boost and I would not say that mega pinsir is a reason for it to drop as mega pinsir has always a threat towards volc since it's inception. Volc is a terrifying sweeper who can set up multiple times and I find that the defog support (which you should have anyways) is not that big of a deal for the terrifying monster it can be. As a special sweeper volc is the best of the best (bar magearna) and I think that A+ perfectly reflects that.
 
Volcarona always goes through this cycle, yes it has to be a little selective with its coverage but it’s an easy adjustment to make as the meta shifts. Guarantee as Heatran/Pex continue to become people’s main Volc counters and they stop doubling up other checks, HP Ground/Psychic will start to get more popular again and the cycle will repeat. Mantine and Chansey, its most reliable counters regardless of set, have been used consistently since fairly early SuMo and have never stopped Volc from being highly viable. SR is obviously not new either and there’s more Defogger than ever before, giving you more options when building around Volc.

I don’t see a point in dropping it now during a transition phase when, frankly, by the time the ratings get updated it will have probably shifted back to the most appropriate set for the meta and will pop back up in viability. Let’s stop chasing the cycle and just leave it where it belongs.
 
Volcarona always goes through this cycle, yes it has to be a little selective with its coverage but it’s an easy adjustment to make as the meta shifts. Guarantee as Heatran/Pex continue to become people’s main Volc counters and they stop doubling up other checks, HP Ground/Psychic will start to get more popular again and the cycle will repeat. Mantine and Chansey, its most reliable counters regardless of set, have been used consistently since fairly early SuMo and have never stopped Volc from being highly viable. SR is obviously not new either and there’s more Defogger than ever before, giving you more options when building around Volc.

I don’t see a point in dropping it now during a transition phase when, frankly, by the time the ratings get updated it will have probably shifted back to the most appropriate set for the meta and will pop back up in viability. Let’s stop chasing the cycle and just leave it where it belongs.
Agree here. I've always hated the cycle, lets keep the Demon Moth in A+. Not much to add to Ryolain's argument.

Mega T-Tar B+ -> A-

Apparently the main reason he dropped was that the DD set is less viable. While this is true, I feel his SR set is still out in force. With great bulk and power, access to utility moves like SR and Pursuit, I still believe this mon should remain in A-, purely due to this set that is still very effective, especially of a SR setter.
 

power

uh-oh, the game in trouble
One liner because if you need an explanation for this nomination then I have no idea what to do with you


Terrakion B- -> as far away from the B ranks as possible

send this shitmon PACKING to the depths where it belongs

scarf is dong
band is dong
sd z move is also dong in a tier where scarf lando ash gren and mega sciz hold an iron grip on the meta
 

Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
One liner because if you need an explanation for this nomination then I have no idea what to do with you


Terrakion B- -> as far away from the B ranks as possible

send this shitmon PACKING to the depths where it belongs

scarf is dong
band is dong
sd z move is also dong in a tier where scarf lando ash gren and mega sciz hold an iron grip on the meta
Im going to disagree. Terrakion is still an amazing mons with some nice stats. You could run band, scarf even, or z. Keep it in the back for late game or even lead it. There are a lot of fairies and dumb stupid should be banned frogs running around but that shouldnt deter you from using it. Still bulky and still strong af. #MOUGA #FreeTerrakion
 
Im going to disagree. Terrakion is still an amazing mons with some nice stats. You could run band, scarf even, or z. Keep it in the back for late game or even lead it. There are a lot of fairies and dumb stupid should be banned frogs running around but that shouldnt deter you from using it. Still bulky and still strong af. #MOUGA #FreeTerrakion
fr, why would you use it over lando-t. lando has a much better ability and is almost anything that is competition with lando-t or has sets in competition would impact their viability. Take Garchomp for example, it faces stiff competition with Lando-t and is one of the main reasons its in B. scarf is almost-if not-completely outlclased by lando. band is butterscotch booty. z still gets outsped by a large handful of mons. it also hates priority in bullet and mach punch, water shuriken, and aqua jet. its funny that you mention faries because koko, bulu, lele, and fini usually all beat it. This post is not to be toxic or hostile
 
One liner because if you need an explanation for this nomination then I have no idea what to do with you


Terrakion B- -> as far away from the B ranks as possible

send this shitmon PACKING to the depths where it belongs

scarf is dong
band is dong
sd z move is also dong in a tier where scarf lando ash gren and mega sciz hold an iron grip on the meta
Retweet

Yeah Azumarill is the far superior trapper. I agree, I may hate Fini, but it does still have a relevancy that is mirrored in B-. Now there are better defog mons, but Fine still serves as a somewhat reliable bulky water type who can force out Meta Mons like Heatran or Physdef Lando-T. And while she may not be as good with defog, she can't be poisoned like most defoggers thanks to the terrain. Keep in B-.
Fini is actually incredibly undervalued right now as it has some great traits in the current metagame. First of all, it is able to Defog Spikes from Ash-Greninja like no other pokemon. It is also able to defog/grant immunity to Toxic Spikes and remove Stealth Rock from defensive Landorus-Therian & non-Grassium-Z Heatran for a limited amount of time. Additionally, it is able to take on the currently trending Hawlucha as it resists its strongest STAB and retaliates with Moonblast. Here is a practical example of a Fini vs Lucha matchup in my OST R2 game against 1 True Lycan: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-352760

I feel like people are using Tapu Fini wrong. You shouldnt be using Fini on balanced builds trying to out-last the opponent, but rather use it on bulky offense teams and use the status-immunity + defog support to kill the enemy mons before they kill yours. Its not like Heatran where Leftovers alone give you insane recovery because your 2 immunities & 5 quadruple resists allow you to recover more from leftovers than you take from certain attacks .-.

This is the set I've been using recently
Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Surf
- Moonblast
- Nature's Madness
This set drops speed + Taunt for bulk and coverage. It aims to use Fini's strenghts to their full potential rather than trying to patch up its weaknesses.
 
Last edited:

Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
Also since Lord Sedertz brought up mons dropping I'd like to add to that and keep the river of disdain flowin.

Kartana - > B. The set people use is stupid, Stop using scarf kartana imo. It's weak. The best set is z. Anway idk why (mob mentality) people have been hyping this up but it needs to stop. As I have mentioned before this needs to oko or itll die. chansey can oko it with fire blast. This thing dies to an hp ice. And again, is walled by half of ou. Scarf is really only threatening extremely late game and with most teams being the same and carrying lucha /ash gren/ mage i dont see that doing much work.


Clefable->C+ The once queen of ou has fallen hard af. Clef is honestly outclassed by many many mons. If you're SR give it up for something that's not a fairy type. If you're calm mind use zam or lele or someone else, if you're offensive LMAO idk. Maybe outclassed isnt the correct term (looking back its not) but it's not as great as it once was and with z moves its walling capabilities are limited (esp the calm mind). It's not bad though so C+ seems to be a good place for it.

Blacephalon -> C- This mon is hot garbage and isnt even as strong as people are out to make it. It's frail as paper and it has the same problem as kartana but worse. The only saving grace this mon has is that you cant tell if its scarf or specs when it gets +spa. That's really it. It cant oko stuff it really should and most of them can oneshot it. And honestly, each of its sets are outside of sub calm mind which is just bad unless ur facing a chansey bc ur not walling anything else outside of ferroseed


edit: you can silence me but you know I'm at least partially right af. stay salty
 
Last edited:
Also since Lord Sedertz brought up mons dropping I'd like to add to that and keep the river of disdain flowin.

Kartana - > B. The set people use is stupid, Stop using scarf kartana imo. It's weak. The best set is z. Anway idk why (mob mentality) people have been hyping this up but it needs to stop. As I have mentioned before this needs to oko or itll die. chansey can oko it with fire blast. This thing dies to an hp ice. And again, is walled by half of ou. Scarf is really only threatening extremely late game and with most teams being the same and carrying lucha /ash gren/ mage i dont see that doing much work.
I think you shouldnt be comparing the Scarf set to its Z set, but rather to other user of Choice Scarf. And in that regard Kartana is doing a fine job as it has the typing, base power, speed and even physical defensive utility to make a fine revenge killer. Obviously Z is stronger as a breaker (one of if not the strongest breaker in the tier) but thats not an argument against Choice Scarf Kartana.
 

Leo

after hours
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
MPL Champion
Also since Lord Sedertz brought up mons dropping I'd like to add to that and keep the river of disdain flowin.

Kartana - > B. The set people use is stupid, Stop using scarf kartana imo. It's weak. The best set is z. Anway idk why (mob mentality) people have been hyping this up but it needs to stop. As I have mentioned before this needs to oko or itll die. chansey can oko it with fire blast. This thing dies to an hp ice. And again, is walled by half of ou. Scarf is really only threatening extremely late game and with most teams being the same and carrying lucha /ash gren/ mage i dont see that doing much work.


Clefable->C+ The once queen of ou has fallen hard af. Clef is honestly outclassed by many many mons. If you're SR give it up for something that's not a fairy type. If you're calm mind use zam or lele or someone else, if you're offensive LMAO idk. Maybe outclassed isnt the correct term (looking back its not) but it's not as great as it once was and with z moves its walling capabilities are limited (esp the calm mind). It's not bad though so C+ seems to be a good place for it.

Blacephalon -> C- This mon is hot garbage and isnt even as strong as people are out to make it. It's frail as paper and it has the same problem as kartana but worse. The only saving grace this mon has is that you cant tell if its scarf or specs when it gets +spa. That's really it. It cant oko stuff it really should and most of them can oneshot it. And honestly, each of its sets are outside of sub calm mind which is just bad unless ur facing a chansey bc ur not walling anything else outside of ferroseed
First and foremost, I’d like you to take a step back and think about the mons you’re nomming, their current rankings and the rankings you want them to be in. It’s really hard for one of the most meta defining mons in Kartana to drop all of the sudden to B with the likes of Blacephalon and Excadrill. Its best set (zmove) is easily one of the most threatening balance breakers in the tier and there’s not way such a defining thread is going to drop all the way down to B. Some of your examples like Fire Blast Chansey show some clear lack of metagame knowledge so please take your time to think about a mon and its role in the metagame before jumping into conclussions here. Clefable may not be as good as it was in ORAS but it definitely is deserving of its current ranking. You don’t really give a reason as to why SR shouldnt be used and its Calm Mind set definitely can’t be directly compared to Tapu Lele or Alakazam. If you wish to continue discussing this topic then please do so in PMs, for now I’d prefer to move on to different noms because arguing about these mons in this thread really won’t get you anywhere. To everybody else, please refrain from responding to this post to avoid derailing the thread. Thanks
 
Lol, Omari P writing poetry here.

I'm gonna nominate
Greninja from A- to A
, regular Greninja seems to be seen much more often lately, finding good success with it's Scarf set, the metagame has only become faster and faster and with Scarf Greninja is really starting to shine thanks to its ability to consistently revenge kill even boosted threats, mainly Koko, Volcarona and Ash-Greninja. Protean AoA/Spikes sets with Expert Belt/Z-Moves are also underrated, being able to effectively bluff Scarf.

It's gotten to a stage now where I no longer auto assume the opponent is carrying Battle Bond, and this sort of enters a catch-22 where it becomes more viable and common as it is surprising and unpredictable, which in turn makes it less viable as people come to expect it. However its efficiency in revenge killing fast threats, as well as viable items, its versatility in coverage, allowing for plenty of splashability and useful tech in Taunt Toxic/Spikes makes me believe this is worth a raise. I also wanted a nomination that wasn't totally off the fucking wall in the thread.
 
Last edited:

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
This is exactly what I meant njnp.

Let's skip those three noms and focus on a good nom instead:
Lol, Omari P writing poetry here.

I'm gonna nominate
Greninja from A- to A
, regular Greninja seems to be seen much more often lately, finding good success with it's Scarf set, the metagame has only become faster and faster and with Scarf Greninja is really starting to shine thanks to its ability to consistently revenge kill even boosted threats, mainly Koko, Volcarona and Ash-Greninja. Protean AoA/Spikes sets with Expert Belt are also underrated, being able to effectively bluff Scarf.

It's gotten to a stage now where I no longer auto assume the opponent is carrying Battle Bond, and this sort of enters a catch-22 where it becomes more viable and common as it is surprising and unpredictable, which in turn makes it less viable as people come to expect it. However its efficiency in revenge killing fast threats, as well as viable items, its versatility in coverage, allowing for plenty of splashability and useful tech in Taunt Toxic/Spikes makes me believe this is worth a raise. I also wanted a nomination that wasn't totally off the fucking wall in the thread.
I echo this nomination. Greninja has been creeping back up as a reasonable support Pokemon with some offensive presence with Z Crystals. Eo and others have demonstrated some great techs with using Z Greninja within SPL this season. I can agree Greninja should at least go back to A since it still is fairly meta defining and makes an impact comparable to some of the A Rank Pokemon.
 
Also since Lord Sedertz brought up mons dropping I'd like to add to that and keep the river of disdain flowin.

Kartana - > B. The set people use is stupid, Stop using scarf kartana imo. It's weak. The best set is z. Anway idk why (mob mentality) people have been hyping this up but it needs to stop. As I have mentioned before this needs to oko or itll die. chansey can oko it with fire blast. This thing dies to an hp ice. And again, is walled by half of ou. Scarf is really only threatening extremely late game and with most teams being the same and carrying lucha /ash gren/ mage i dont see that doing much work.
I disagree. Scarf Kartana may not be as competitively viable as its z-set but those are two completely different sets. If we look at scarf kartana and what it can do, it's actually quite threatening as it is able to outspeed a large portion of offensive threats in the metagame such as Ash-Greninja, Mega Lopunny, Mega Alakazam, Adamant Swift Swim Mega Swampert, and various choice scarf users such as tapu lele and Keldeo.

In addition to this, scarf kartana has utility in both Knock off and Defog, allowing it to rid pokemon like Zapdos, Landorus, Toxapex and Celesteele, Pokemon that people normally switch into it, of their leftovers, black sludge, and rocky helmet respectively and/or use defog to remove hazards quickly in case things get too dicy.

Lastly, Beast Boost enables Kartana to snowball through weakened teams and even take out its normal counters once they have been weakened. Plus with an impressive Base 131 defense and solid typing, Kartana is likely to survive most Priority attacks. The only one Kartana has to watch out for is water shuriken which still fails to OHKO even if rocks are up.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 201-237 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

In addition, I've never seen Chansey running fire blast like ever and the thing still has a high chance of being 2HKO'd by sacred sword anyway so it isn't exactly a solid counter.

252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 334-394 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
 
I think you shouldnt be comparing the Scarf set to its Z set, but rather to other user of Choice Scarf. And in that regard Kartana is doing a fine job as it has the typing, base power, speed and even physical defensive utility to make a fine revenge killer. Obviously Z is stronger as a breaker (one of if not the strongest breaker in the tier) but thats not an argument against Choice Scarf Kartana.
This is exactly what I meant njnp.

Let's skip those three noms and focus on a good nom instead:

I echo this nomination. Greninja has been creeping back up as a reasonable support Pokemon with some offensive presence with Z Crystals. Eo and others have demonstrated some great techs with using Z Greninja within SPL this season. I can agree Greninja should at least go back to A since it still is fairly meta defining and makes an impact comparable to some of the A Rank Pokemon.
I disagree. Scarf Kartana may not be as competitively viable as its z-set but those are two completely different sets. If we look at scarf kartana and what it can do, it's actually quite threatening as it is able to outspeed a large portion of offensive threats in the metagame such as Ash-Greninja, Mega Lopunny, Mega Alakazam, Adamant Swift Swim Mega Swampert, and various choice scarf users such as tapu lele and Keldeo.

In addition to this, scarf kartana has utility in both Knock off and Defog, allowing it to rid pokemon like Zapdos, Landorus, Toxapex and Celesteele, Pokemon that people normally switch into it, of their leftovers, black sludge, and rocky helmet respectively and/or use defog to remove hazards quickly in case things get too dicy.

Lastly, Beast Boost enables Kartana to snowball through weakened teams and even take out its normal counters once they have been weakened. Plus with an impressive Base 131 defense and solid typing, Kartana is likely to survive most Priority attacks. The only one Kartana has to watch out for is water shuriken which still fails to OHKO even if rocks are up.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 201-237 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

In addition, I've never seen Chansey running fire blast like ever and the thing still has a high chance of being 2HKO'd by sacred sword anyway so it isn't exactly a solid counter.

252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 334-394 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
IMG_0030.JPG

Responding to Omari Ps Poetry


Just so this isn't a shitty one liner
I'll voice my support for Greninja to A since it has a still really reliable spikes set and it's scarf set is great at luring threats like Bulu and the like
 
Last edited:
View attachment 106177
Responding to Omari Ps Poetry
The reason I actually responded to his post (or rather a part of it) is because he made a mistake I frequently see people in the overused room / people I tutor make and that is comparing a pokemon's Choice Scarf set to its other sets rather than other user of Choice Scarf. You do not think 'hm do I run Lefties Heatran or Choice Scarf Heatran in the last slot' but rather 'what pokemon did I not cover defensively and need to check via a scarfer?'

to A is something I support. Life Orb is a mediocre set and pretty much ceased to exist, however, Z-move sets with spikes are very potent in killing that one thing your team wants gone, maintain Greninja's unpredictability and set up Spikes quite well.
 

Latios: B+ to B
Latios is falling further and further down in OU in terms of viability as its scarf set is losing to many OU pokemon that are becoming more and more used like ferrothorn, heatran, scizor, magearna, t-tar, and so many others. While it does have defog, w/ USM out, theres no shortage of good defoggers. its also just easy to wall. the other sets like CM and specs are too slow and are still checked/countered by many of the same things that give the scarf set problems. On top of all of that, theres no shortage of good scarfers, CM users, or specs users in OU that can do its job better.
 
The reason I actually responded to his post (or rather a part of it) is because he made a mistake I frequently see people in the overused room / people I tutor make and that is comparing a pokemon's Choice Scarf set to its other sets rather than other user of Choice Scarf. You do not think 'hm do I run Lefties Heatran or Choice Scarf Heatran in the last slot' but rather 'what pokemon did I not cover defensively and need to check via a scarfer?'

to A is something I support. Life Orb is a mediocre set and pretty much ceased to exist, however, Z-move sets with spikes are very potent in killing that one thing your team wants gone, maintain Greninja's unpredictability and set up Spikes quite well.
Just so you know, I agree with what you just said. I wasn't really trying to call out any of the posters who replied to Thunder Powell. I just found it funny that people wasted their time responding to a post that was pretty much a troll post that was never going to get taken seriously by the council in the first place


Anyway, to mirror Verlisify Set Sucks post, I think its also time to drop Latios's counterpart, Regular Latias from B- to C+
1521667005653.png

Take every problem the above post just listed, but compound it with lower special attack in exchange for more special bulk that ultimately doesn't mean too much outside of walling maybe one or two things better, having a even harder time taking down the same pokemon he listed, and give it one move to differentiate itself in Healing Wish. Now I won't deny that Healing Wish is pretty useful, and I think that in of itself is a niche. But when its for the most part better counterpart is dropping, it probably should also drop to reflect that its own niche isn't as appreciated as it once was. I also think its more at home there with mons that have niches, but aren't as appreciated. Let me know if I'm wrong about what I just said about Latias

Now for a probably more controversial drop
1521667459567.png
From C+ to C

If I remember right, the reason why Hydreigon moved up to C+ is because of how at one point in the viability rankings in regular Sun and Moon, people kept asking for it to move up forever until eventually it did and it stayed that way presumably because people forgot about it. However, back then was a different meta, and this meta is even less kind to the big dark dragon. No one uses this thing in SPL and for good reason, its weakness's are very easy to encounter
Let us start with the most obvious weakness that this current meta has in store: KokoLucha.

When one of the most prominent offensive cores in the meta game as of late can utterly destroy you with both mons, then there is a problem. Tapu Koko can clean you off with a Dazzling Gleam, and Hawlucha just kicks the life out of Hydreigon. While neither switch in, both of them can have their way, especially Koko who can switch in on both of its stabs and bolsters great usage. The abundance of other checks hurts it as well. It certainly doesn't appreciate the overabundance of revenge killers that make a mockery of it like Kartana. Similarly Tapu Bulu punishes Draco Meteor or Dark Pulses and has a chance to Ohko after rocks with Superpower.. It also dislikes all of its old problems just as much like getting destroyed by the fighting type megas, fairy's laughing at its efforts, being outsped and bopped by the Latis, Chansey taking a pittance from it, and all that good stuff. It also faces competition from Hoopa as a wallbreaker of fat stuff, but unlike Hoopa, Hydreigon can't boost its special attack

But I think that the biggest reason I personally would drop it is because two other fat balance breakers, Nidoking and Mega Camerupt reside in C, and both are very comparable to the dragon as all of them can break fat balance pretty effectively but have multiple problems holding them back. Both Camerupt and Nidoking however benefit from being able to switch up their moves as well as having more spammable ones which allows them to be threatening at all times with switching in being a guessing game as to which coverage or move they will use next, unlike Hydreigon who has to switch out constantly after using its one move. Nidoking can use Substitute and its immunity to electric attacks to make it more threatening, and MegaRupt is a natural check to both fairy and electric types giving it plenty of opportunities to switch in on Koko and the other Tapus and set up rocks or wallbreak. In the end, while Hydreigon isn't bad, it certainly is effective at breaking fat balance and is faster than both Nidoking and Camerupt while also being resistant to Scald from Toxapex, it falls short of the mark on regular offense and less fat balance and can't deal with a whole lot of new meta sensations like Tapu Koko and Hawlucha and is more at home with the other balance shredders who have individual problems holding them back, and as such I would nominate Hydreigon to drop.
 
Last edited:
Just so you know, I agree with what you just said. I wasn't really trying to call out any of the posters who replied to Thunder Powell. I just found it funny that people wasted their time responding to a post that was pretty much a troll post that was never going to get taken seriously by the council in the first place


Anyway, to mirror Verlisify Set Sucks post, I think its also time to drop Latios's counterpart, Regular Latias from B- to C+
View attachment 106807
Take every problem the above post just listed, but compound it with lower special attack in exchange for more special bulk that ultimately doesn't mean too much outside of walling maybe one or two things better, having a even harder time taking down the same pokemon he listed, and give it one move to differentiate itself in Healing Wish. Now I won't deny that Healing Wish is pretty useful, and I think that in of itself is a niche. But when its for the most part better counterpart is dropping, it probably should also drop to reflect that its own niche isn't as appreciated as it once was. I also think its more at home there with mons that have niches, but aren't as appreciated. Let me know if I'm wrong about what I just said about Latias

Now for a probably more controversial drop
View attachment 106808 From C+ to C

If I remember right, the reason why Hydreigon moved up to C+ is because of how at one point in the viability rankings in regular Sun and Moon, people started asking for it to move up forever until eventually it did and it stayed that way presumably because people forgot about it. However, back then was a different meta, and this meta is even less kind to the big dark dragon. No one uses this thing in SPL and for good reason, its weakness's are very easy to encounter
Let us start with the most obvious weakness that this current meta has in store: KokoLucha.

When one of the most prominent offensive cores in the meta game as of late can utterly destroy you with both mons, then there is a problem. Tapu Koko can clean you off with a Dazzling Gleam, and Hawlucha just kicks the life out of Hydreigon. While neither switch in, both of them can have their way, especially Koko who can switch in on both of its stabs and bolsters great usage. The abundance of other checks hurts it as well. It certainly doesn't appreciate the overabundance of revenge killers that make a mockery of it like Kartana. Similarly Tapu Bulu punishes Draco Meteor or Dark Pulses and has a chance to Ohko after rocks with Superpower.. It also dislikes all of its old problems just as much like getting destroyed by the fighting type megas, fairy's laughing at its efforts, being outsped and bopped by the Latis, Chansey taking a pittance from it, and all that good stuff. It also faces competition from Hoopa as a wallbreaker of fat stuff, but unlike Hoopa, Hydreigon can't boost its special attack

But I think that the biggest reason I personally would drop it is because two other fat balance breakers, Nidoking and Mega Camerupt reside in C, and both are very comparable to the dragon as all of them can break fat balance pretty effectively but have multiple problems holding them back. Both Camerupt and Nidoking however benefit from being able to switch up their moves as well as having more spammable ones which allows them to be threatening at all times with switching in being a guessing game as to which coverage or move they will use next, unlike Hydreigon who has to switch out constantly after using its one move. Nidoking can use Substitute and its immunity to electric attacks to make it more threatening, and MegaRupt is a natural check to both fairy and electric types giving it plenty of opportunities to switch in on Koko and the other Tapus and set up rocks or wallbreak. In the end, while Hydreigon isn't bad, it certainly is effective at breaking fat balance and is faster than both Nidoking and Camerupt while also being resistant to Scald from Toxapex, it falls short of the mark on regular offense and less fat balance and can't deal with a whole lot of new meta sensations like Tapu Koko and Hawlucha and is more at home with the other balance shredders who have individual problems holding them back, and as such I would nominate Hydreigon to drop.
Speaking of controversial nominations and Nidoking....

I'd like to nominate Nidoking to C+. At first glance, Nothing abouth Nidoking seems particularly good at all, really. But upon further glance you'll see it has a solid typing, an excellent movepool, and great power thanks to the sheer force LO combo and strong stabs. It's typing lets it check koko very well, letting it switch into Koko's Volt Switch and thunderbolt, and has the bulk to tank a hidden power ice from any of koko's sets. Both of its stabs blow koko and other fairies away. It laughs in most fairy types faces and blows them away with Sludge wave. It also can opt to run superpower to avoid being walled by Chansey. It has an extremely diverse movepool featuring excellent moves such as Earth Power, Sludge Wave, Thunderbolt, Ice beam, and Fire Blast, and more. It is a really solid mon and should imo rise to C+
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Anyway, to mirror Verlisify Set Sucks post, I think its also time to drop Latios's counterpart, Regular Latias from B- to C+
View attachment 106807
Take every problem the above post just listed, but compound it with lower special attack in exchange for more special bulk that ultimately doesn't mean too much outside of walling maybe one or two things better, having a even harder time taking down the same pokemon he listed, and give it one move to differentiate itself in Healing Wish. Now I won't deny that Healing Wish is pretty useful, and I think that in of itself is a niche. But when its for the most part better counterpart is dropping, it probably should also drop to reflect that its own niche isn't as appreciated as it once was. I also think its more at home there with mons that have niches, but aren't as appreciated. Let me know if I'm wrong about what I just said about Latias
Absolutely disagree. Scarf Latias is, arguably, the superior choice over Scarf Latios on a lot of teams just because Healing Wish gives teams a second chance to create havoc. While its power is certainly lower than Latios's, the utility presented by Healing Wish gives offensive teams capabilities to make more reckless plays with breakers and cleaners such as Mega Medicham, Ash-Greninja, and Shift Gear Magearna. It certainly has a greater purpose on teams than 90% of the C+ below Pokemon.
 
Mfw people take omari's bait.
Anyways, support greninja to A, this pokemon is criminally underrated and able to effectively lure ash-greninja checks. Ferro dies to hp fire, pex falls to 2 extrasensories, mantine to rock slide, bulu, well, rip. Fini drops, etc. It also is a very reliable spikes setting lead, with t spikes and the sort.

But I think that the biggest reason I personally would drop it is because two other fat balance breakers, Nidoking and Mega Camerupt reside in C, and both are very comparable to the dragon as all of them can break fat balance pretty effectively but have multiple problems holding them back. Both Camerupt and Nidoking however benefit from being able to switch up their moves as well as having more spammable ones which allows them to be threatening at all times with switching in being a guessing game as to which coverage or move they will use next, unlike Hydreigon who has to switch out constantly after using its one move. Nidoking can use Substitute and its immunity to electric attacks to make it more threatening, and MegaRupt is a natural check to both fairy and electric types giving it plenty of opportunities to switch in on Koko and the other Tapus and set up rocks or wallbreak. In the end, while Hydreigon isn't bad, it certainly is effective at breaking fat balance and is faster than both Nidoking and Camerupt while also being resistant to Scald from Toxapex, it falls short of the mark on regular offense and less fat balance and can't deal with a whole lot of new meta sensations like Tapu Koko and Hawlucha and is more at home with the other balance shredders who have individual problems holding them back, and as such I would nominate Hydreigon to drop.
Disagree. You're under the idea that a rise in offensive checks to a powerful specs user should cause it to drop. Hydregon has always had issues with powerful pokemon faster than it, while fatter checks to it haven't really risen recently. Tyranitar is annoying, yet it's u-turn fodder into the many potential teammates that annoy t-tar. AV mag doesn't appreciate fire blast, and toxapex doesn't appreciate specs dark pulse due to flinch chance and being so passive vs hydregon, tran isn't really a solid check due to needing spdef to take dark pulses well, and honestly scrolling through the ou VR it's hard to find genuinely good switch-ins to this pokemon. Gona slap a few calcs down just to show this.
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 168-198 (48.9 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 127-151 (36 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 154-182 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(No recovery for magerna, weakens it significantly with good predictions. Or just use LO or ebelt, specs isn't the only set you could use)
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 108-127 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 174-205 (57.4 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
(Put draco and pulse to show you could nuke a weak pex, I understand that flinches aren't a reliable way to break pex, but there's something to be said for pressuring pex to click recover. U-turn is also your best friend here.)
Could list more, but I hope we all get the point that this boi is tough to switch into. Honestly the koko-lucha hype train seems to be dying down, with the meta adapting and more cores being able to check those monsters, hippowdown, gastro-zapdos, SSSS defensive lando being a thing now, mew+bulu; etc. Not saying it's any worse of a core, just stating that there's been more meta adaptation to where you're not forced to run niche mons if you wish to use hydregon on a team based of the justification that it struggles with koko-lucha. Hydregon is easily on the level and even above many C+ mons such as marowak, charizard-y, thunderos, and araq, but that's just my 2 cents. I find it funny that you compared it to camerupt as justification for a drop; the good ol' cameltoe has a strong justification to rise. Other than the two mons you cited; you couldn't really compare it to other C pokemon because of how much higher it is than them; placing hydregon alongside things like gallade, muk, and ninetails is insane.
Keep hydregon in C+.
Absolutely disagree. Scarf Latias is, arguably, the superior choice over Scarf Latios on a lot of teams just because Healing Wish gives teams a second chance to create havoc. While its power is certainly lower than Latios's, the utility presented by Healing Wish gives offensive teams capabilities to make more reckless plays with breakers and cleaners such as Mega Medicham, Ash-Greninja, and Shift Gear Magearna. It certainly has a greater purpose on teams than 90% of the C+ below Pokemon.
Agree. Not much to say; but if I'm going to write a long response post might as well indulge in a show of support for other recent noms.
I'd like to nominate Nidoking to C+. At first glance, Nothing abouth Nidoking seems particularly good at all, really. But upon further glance you'll see it has a solid typing, an excellent movepool, and great power thanks to the sheer force LO combo and strong stabs. It's typing lets it check koko very well, letting it switch into Koko's Volt Switch and thunderbolt, and has the bulk to tank a hidden power ice from any of koko's sets. Both of its stabs blow koko and other fairies away. It laughs in most fairy types faces and blows them away with Sludge wave. It also can opt to run superpower to avoid being walled by Chansey. It has an extremely diverse movepool featuring excellent moves such as Earth Power, Sludge Wave, Thunderbolt, Ice beam, and Fire Blast, and more. It is a really solid mon and should imo rise to C+
Wouldn't mind this. Nido is a good rocker and the 4 attacks set is also pretty fire rn (dual stab, ice beam, fthrower). Pretty good phat breaker with a decent typing vs koko, too.
 
Tyranitar A > A-
This Mon has fallen out of favor as of late, It isn't even that great of a stallbreaker anymore because stall has been prepping and running around with Buzzwole and with Hippowdon being very solid rn and Gliscor spiking in usage it is very annoying for Tyranitar. Keldeo Is usually a solid partner with Tyranitar and is certainly a decent Mon but nowhere near as good as it once was in oras with the introduction of Toxapex, thus making Taunt CM it's best set and making Keldeo much less of a polarising threat. Another thing is Regular Latios also isnt really that good right now and EQ mega latios has been rising in usage lately and makes ttars job much harder. This makes the combo of Keldeo + Tyranitar Not much of a fantastic core as it once was, making pursuit trapping a little less desirable. Being forced out by powerful Meta threats such as Kartana, The Rising Medicham, And The best Mon in the tier isn't really that good either, And Heatran a Mon it's supposed to "Check" Can easily beat it with Groundium-Z.
 
Last edited:
Tyranitar A > A-
This Mon has fallen out of favor as of late, It isn't even that great of a stallbreaker anymore because stall has been prepping and running around with Buzzwole and with Hippowdon being very solid rn and Gliscor spiking in usage it is very annoying for Tyranitar. Keldeo Is usually a solid partner with Tyranitar and is certainly a decent Mon but nowhere near as good as it once was in oras with the introduction of Toxapex, thus making Taunt CM it's best set and making Keldeo much less of a polarising threat. Regular Latios also isnt really that good right now and EQ mega latios has been rising in usage lately and makes ttars job much harder. This makes the combo of Keldeo + Tyranitar Not much of a fantastic core as it once was. Being forced out by powerful Meta threats such as Kartana, The Rising Medicham, And The best Mon in the tier isn't really that good either, And Heatran a Mon it's supposed to "Check" Can easily beat it with Groundium-Z.

First off I should note that Tyranitar is not a stallbreaker, it is a wallbreaker.While Hippowdown is good right now it hasn't exactly had a spike in usage making it not all that problomatic for tyranitar.I do not see the relevance in Keldeo being bad and how that relates to a dead core that nobody uses anymore.Gliscor still cannot switch in also without tyranitar being able to 2hko it with stone edge, Buzzwole also isn't that big of an issue for it due to it still being rare. If anything Tyranitar is doing great right now, being able to easily beat and put pressure on an uprising threat in tornadus T while still doing it's job of making anything wanting to switch in be in terror. Tyranitar has always had issues with Lando-T by the way and I don't see how it's a reason to drop it now. While Medicham does beat it, it can't take a crunch on the switch.

Tyranitar has always had issues with pokemon like this but due to it's sheer power as a wallbreaker it has kept it's rank in this meta, and I believe that A- Is far far far to low for the tyrant.
 
Or just use LO or ebelt, specs isn't the only set you could use
This might seem somewhat farfetched, but Hydreigon isn't even that bad of a Defogger. A set I like to run is LO with Defog, Roost, Dark Pulse and Fire Blast. (You forgo Draco because too many things don't care about switching in on it and it just forces you to switch out afterwards.)

When you take a look at some of the most common hazard setters, Hydra actually matches up very well against them:
Ferro and Exca die to Flamethrower/Fblast, Defensive Lando takes 52% min from LO Dark Pulse, Heatran gets 2HKO'd after rocks, Mew dies after Rocks, you wall A-gren to infinity and beyond, ... Only Clef and Chansey are guaranteed to get rocks up against you. You could even go for a set without Roost with Expert Belt or even Leftovers, and use more coverage like Earth Power (if Pex and Heatran bother you more) or U-turn for momentum.

One if its biggest strengths is its incredibly deep movepool, so you just pick the coverage you need (Superpower for Chansey? Sure, why not lol. Uninvested LO SP does up to 88% in 2 hits (This obviously isn't its best coverage move, even though it also hits Heatran, Ferro and Exca...)).
92/90/90 defenses are also decent and Dark/Dragon, besides some obvious weaknesses, also comes with a lot of useful resistances. And levitating without being a Flying type is a plus as well.

Hydreigon definitely isn't meta defining and some of its sets get outclassed, but to drop it below where it sits now (C+) wouldn't make sense either.
 
Last edited:
Speaking of controversial nominations and Nidoking....

I'd like to nominate Nidoking to C+. At first glance, Nothing abouth Nidoking seems particularly good at all, really. But upon further glance you'll see it has a solid typing, an excellent movepool, and great power thanks to the sheer force LO combo and strong stabs. It's typing lets it check koko very well, letting it switch into Koko's Volt Switch and thunderbolt, and has the bulk to tank a hidden power ice from any of koko's sets. Both of its stabs blow koko and other fairies away. It laughs in most fairy types faces and blows them away with Sludge wave. It also can opt to run superpower to avoid being walled by Chansey. It has an extremely diverse movepool featuring excellent moves such as Earth Power, Sludge Wave, Thunderbolt, Ice beam, and Fire Blast, and more. It is a really solid mon and should imo rise to C+
I dont know if I agree or disagree with Nidoking rising but i want to add something to this post. In general for me the C ranks and even the B- rank are kind of a mess rn because I dont really know which mons are already being planned to be moved up or down like Hippowdon or Stakataka (Hippo should probablly even going up to B btw).

So yea about Nidoking... Not much has changed for it if i am not mistaken, only that there are more Balance teams which rely on defensive cores that Nidoking can break, especially with Fire Blast ( rise of AV Bulu, decrease of M-Venu etc). However there aren't many reasons to use Nidoking instead of Wallbreakers like Kyurem-B, Hoopa or even Z-Move Lele (or Gengar) who all add much more to your team. They all break more stuff and arent as easy to pivot into because of the higher damage output while possibly even being good lures for your team. Also they have better speed, better defensive typing, better defensive stats etc. and unlike most of them, Nidoking cant really do much against stall (no, it cant break Chansey unless you run like max attack which is bad and also lets u be walled by Sableye or nvm its walled by MSab with max SpA anyways). The only things it really gives you is an additional electric immunity (which only helps you with like non item boosted Koko or maybe Zapdos and Magnezone) and a tspike absorber which can also use rocks (if you are that desperate that you need it on your wallbreaker, thus making it bad being in need of the coverage or substitute).
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 2)

Top