Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Scuba Diver]

I’d like to propose Weavile from B+ —> B

B+ consists primarily of either glue mons like Tangrowth and Rotom or mons you build your whole team around like pelliper or Mega Zam. I don’t really feel like Weavile is bringing enough to the table rn to be with this group. The overwhelming amount of Magearna use and the sheer number of ways it can punish a Weavile user should give anyone building pause. I’d argue that Weavile is no more difficult to switch in to compared to Mamoswine (who competes for a spot, you’ll never see both on the same team), but mamoswine brings a bit more power and utility to the table in the form of rocks and an electric immunity. Unless I’m totally underestimating Weavile’s importance to the stall archetype (which I admit I could be, is Weavile stall still a thing?) If the high use of Zygarde and Landorus are inherently tied to the viability of Weavile (and all OU ice types) then I’d argue it’s simply no more consistently effective than Mamo. I also think there are easier ways of punishing Psychic setup sweepers like Reuni and Latias by throwing Punishment on Scarf Lando or using Heart Swap Magearna.

 

[Altervisi]

I’d like to propose Weavile from B+ —> B

B+ consists primarily of either glue mons like Tangrowth and Rotom or mons you build your whole team around like pelliper or Mega Zam. I don’t really feel like Weavile is bringing enough to the table rn to be with this group. The overwhelming amount of Magearna use and the sheer number of ways it can punish a Weavile user should give anyone building pause. I’d argue that Weavile is no more difficult to switch in to compared to Mamoswine (who competes for a spot, you’ll never see both on the same team), but mamoswine brings a bit more power and utility to the table in the form of rocks and an electric immunity. Unless I’m totally underestimating Weavile’s importance to the stall archetype (which I admit I could be, is Weavile stall still a thing?) If the high use of Zygarde and Landorus are inherently tied to the viability of Weavile (and all OU ice types) then I’d argue it’s simply no more consistently effective than Mamo. I also think there are easier ways of punishing Psychic setup sweepers like Reuni and Latias like throwing Punishment on Scarf Lando or using Heart Swap Magearna.

I disagree, Weavile should stay B+, while yes I think Mega-Alakazam is better, I also think that should raise. Weavile is among a very select group of offensive Ice-types in the tier and in the game, it has a very useful priority move and a fantastic Speed tier than beats non-Ash Greninja. I don't see it as stall staple at all, it can work great as a breaker, trapper, set up sweeper or cleaner on offensive teams. I'd say its frailty and required support for removing checks/hazards is pretty much on the same level as Keldeo and Swampert. I understand that Mamoswine gives good competition, however this is one mon that only has similar function as a breaker and Weavile certainly seperates itself with its Speed, Pursuit, as well as the fact Mamoswine also faces competition as a Ground-type breaker, which Weavile doesn't.

 

[Felixx]

I’d like to propose Weavile from B+ —> B

B+ consists primarily of either glue mons like Tangrowth and Rotom or mons you build your whole team around like pelliper or Mega Zam. I don’t really feel like Weavile is bringing enough to the table rn to be with this group. The overwhelming amount of Magearna use and the sheer number of ways it can punish a Weavile user should give anyone building pause. I’d argue that Weavile is no more difficult to switch in to compared to Mamoswine (who competes for a spot, you’ll never see both on the same team), but mamoswine brings a bit more power and utility to the table in the form of rocks and an electric immunity. Unless I’m totally underestimating Weavile’s importance to the stall archetype (which I admit I could be, is Weavile stall still a thing?) If the high use of Zygarde and Landorus are inherently tied to the viability of Weavile (and all OU ice types) then I’d argue it’s simply no more consistently effective than Mamo. I also think there are easier ways of punishing Psychic setup sweepers like Reuni and Latias by throwing Punishment on Scarf Lando or using Heart Swap Magearna.

I'm going to have too disagree with a Weavile drop to B. Weavile has an amazing speed tier and 2 very spammable and powerful attacks in Icicle Crash and Knock Off, the former abusing the lack of proper Ice resists in the tier, and the latter smacking the few there are. Honestly no Magearna is going to like losing its AV when a big threat like Koko or Ash-Gren gets a free turn (it dosen't matter for Lele bc Psyshock ignores AV, it matters for Moonblast spam tho). Being able to Pursuit threats is just an ICE-ing on the cake, letting it annoy common mons like Zapdos, Medi, and Lele. Now Weavile is different to Mamo, because while Mamo has ground STAB and it abuses it pretty well, the fact is, it can't really switch into anything because it has terrible bulk for its really bad speed tier. Furthermore, Punishment on Scarf Lando is kinda team specific, since it only really deals with M-Latias and Reuni and really nothing else, and while both are good and being prepared for them is nice, having EQ + U-turn is already mandatory, so you're pressed for moveslots, and Heart Swap Mag is only used occasionally on stall. Let's also not forget that if you think Pex is a bitch to it, well there's always a niche SD set that can be a nice surprise for certain teams.

 

[teachable]

Gonna be outta left field, but I'm an RU fangirl so I have a softspot for this mon and

I'd like to nominate Doublade for C or C+.
for reference I've been messing around with this set and feel its good.

set

Doublade (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak

Laddering with Doublade, provided you pair it with Bulu and a Knock switch in, it has put in a lot of work with weakening stuff via Toxic or sweeping via SD Sneak/Sacred Sword. Doublade checks a lot of incredibly common Mons like Medicham, Bulu, Hawlucha, Mega Pinsir; honestly the list is pretty sizable, this things def is enormous. Bulu existing and being popular really made Doublades life a lot more enjoyable w/ some passive recovery. I've had some ladder success with it, teambuilding and taking its flaws into account hasn't been as difficult as I thought and it doesn't feel as niche and gimmicky as it looks at first (managed to build an OK balance & HO squad so far). Ultimately though, y'all know a lot more about OU than me so fire away at Doublade.

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-741777130 - Doublade is the MVP of this game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-741783022 - Doublade 1v1s their Bulu for my Bulu to clean up the game
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-741784194 - Doublade 1v1s a Lopunny & more
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-733510036
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-733319987
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-733296738
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-733293081
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-737225197 - fun balance game

 

[Scuba Diver]

Gonna be outta left field, but I'm an RU fangirl so I have a softspot for this mon and

I'd like to nominate Doublade for C or C+.
for reference I've been messing around with this set and feel its good.

set

Doublade (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak

Laddering with Doublade, provided you pair it with Bulu and a Knock switch in, it has put in a lot of work with weakening stuff via Toxic or sweeping via SD Sneak/Sacred Sword. Doublade checks a lot of incredibly common Mons like Medicham, Bulu, Hawlucha, Mega Pinsir; honestly the list is pretty sizable, this things def is enormous. Bulu existing and being popular really made Doublades life a lot more enjoyable w/ some passive recovery. I've had some ladder success with it, teambuilding and taking its flaws into account hasn't been as difficult as I thought and it doesn't feel as niche and gimmicky as it looks at first (managed to build an OK balance & HO squad so far). Ultimately though, y'all know a lot more about OU than me so fire away at Doublade.

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-741777130 - Doublade is the MVP of this game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-741783022 - Doublade 1v1s their Bulu for my Bulu to clean up the game
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-741784194 - Doublade 1v1s a Lopunny & more
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-733510036
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-733319987
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-733296738
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-733293081
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-737225197 - fun balance game

I think with Wish support Doublade is okay, and if it was to be ranked it should start in C- , definitely not C/C+. The thing is that it’s getting worn down pretty quickly by Pinsir with Earthquake (especially if it SD on the switch) or Bulu’s Nature’s Madness (which will always hit it because of No Guard). It does check Medicham and Hawlucha very well though. I think when building I’d generally use Clef+Zapdos as my Kartana+Pinsir+Hawlucha+Bulu+Medicham checks because of how self sufficient they are, Doublade needs a lot of help. The S/A+ ranked mons generally bully Doublade. I think Doublade does have a slightly larger niche in the meta than Niheligo and Mega Altaria do but I’m not sure if that means rank Doublade or drop those two.

 

[teachable]

quote

I think with Wish support Doublade is okay, and if it was to be ranked it should start in C- , definitely not C/C+. The thing is that it’s getting worn down pretty quickly by Pinsir with Earthquake (especially if it SD on the switch) or Bulu’s Nature’s Madness (which will always hit it because of No Guard). It does check Medicham and Hawlucha very well though. I think when building I’d generally use Clef+Zapdos as my Kartana+Pinsir+Hawlucha+Bulu+Medicham checks because of how self sufficient they are, Doublade needs a lot of help. The S/A+ ranked mons generally bully Doublade. I think Doublade does have a slightly larger niche in the meta than Niheligo and Mega Altaria do but I’m not sure if that means rank Doublade or drop those two.

The thing is that it’s getting worn down pretty quickly by Pinsir with Earthquake
Eh, if this thing is taking an earthquake its either chipping down Pinsir or Toxic'ing some defensive mon on the switch; It doesn't have to be kept incredibly healthy.
or Bulu’s Nature’s Madness (which will always hit it because of No Guard)
You get 2 turns of Grassy Terrain and get to again fire off a Toxic or attack for chip.
I think Doublade does have a slightly larger niche in the meta than Niheligo and Mega Altaria do but I’m not sure if that means rank Doublade or drop those two.
I'd say that's what makes it deserve C. It's on par or better than a decent chunk of mons there like Nidoking, Qwilfish, Thundurus-T.


edit: I'd like to additionally nom Thundurs for B-
Any sort of Defiant set completely handles every Defogger, it hits incredibly hard with STAB LO Thunderbolt and breaks most cores involving T-Pex. Seriously, this Pokemon is good.

 

[Ohmboy Tesla]

Gonna be outta left field, but I'm an RU fangirl so I have a softspot for this mon and

I'd like to nominate Doublade for C or C+.
for reference I've been messing around with this set and feel its good.

set

Doublade (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak

Laddering with Doublade, provided you pair it with Bulu and a Knock switch in, it has put in a lot of work with weakening stuff via Toxic or sweeping via SD Sneak/Sacred Sword. Doublade checks a lot of incredibly common Mons like Medicham, Bulu, Hawlucha, Mega Pinsir; honestly the list is pretty sizable, this things def is enormous. Bulu existing and being popular really made Doublades life a lot more enjoyable w/ some passive recovery. I've had some ladder success with it, teambuilding and taking its flaws into account hasn't been as difficult as I thought and it doesn't feel as niche and gimmicky as it looks at first (managed to build an OK balance & HO squad so far). Ultimately though, y'all know a lot more about OU than me so fire away at Doublade.

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-741777130 - Doublade is the MVP of this game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-741783022 - Doublade 1v1s their Bulu for my Bulu to clean up the game
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-741784194 - Doublade 1v1s a Lopunny & more
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-733510036
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-733319987
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-733296738
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-733293081
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-737225197 - fun balance game

I used Doublade quite a lot a while back and it is definitely usable in this meta. It checks an interesting combination of mons, but does need some support as you mentioned since, like everything in this meta, chip damage and entry hazards really hinder it.
I'd argue that a set with Gyro Ball over Sacred Sword also works because else you're kinda useless against Lele, a huge threat you should be able to check with Doublade imo. Rest over Toxic is also an option, but I believe Toxic is the better option out of those two.

I would't rank it too high as I don't think its niche is that big. Jirachi comes to mind as another defensive Steel. But C- or C wouldn't be too farfetched imo.

 

[BlueLobster]

I don't think doublade is a horrible mon in this meta, it certainly has a small niche, but I'm not entirely sure it should be ranked. There are other mons that have been nommed and rejected (such as buzzwole and golem-a) that have a larger niche in the metagame than doublade, so I don't think it should be ranked unless we are going to rank those mons too. I guess it depends on what we want C- to be: Do we want to rank every viable mon or just the ones that have a niche that a decent amount of teams can benefit from? At the minute it feels like a mix between the two, the C- mons are very niche and some of them are basically unviable and offer nothing notable that better mons do, but others with valid niches are missing. Basically C- is a mess at the minute and I feel like it needs to be looked at in a reasonable amount of detail by the council as it feels like some of the shit there are old relics, memes or plain unviable (looking at you, Nihilego) while actually viable mons with niches aren't ranked.

Now about doublade in particular: this mon is one of the the most team specific mons I've seen in a while. It really wants wish support to function to the best of it's ability, really benefits from bulu to help it actually check pinsir etc. that can just bop it with EQ otherwise and give it the passive recovery it lacks due to having an eviolite instead of lefties, and also lacks moves that most other steels can use (aka stealth rock). It also requires solid hazard removal as spikes are a big problem for it, being a grounded defensive mon with no recovery or leftovers. However, it is the best Hawlucha answer in existance, also makes a great MMedi answer and can take on some other threats like Lele, Pinsir and kart without knock as well. It also can prevent itself from being pursuit trapped as it has sacred sword, which OHKOs the prominent pursuit users (although you're pretty much dead if you predict wrong, particularly V weavile as knock removes your eviolite, making you useless). I've used doublade a couple of times as a last ditch attempt to patch up weaknesses, and it just didn't work due to it not really fitting the team, and I feel this is the case with a huge majority of the teams that might look towards it as an extremely solid answer to lucha and mmedi while also taking on lele to an extent (it shouldnt be your primary answer tho as it loses to specs psychic unless you're SpD), as the teams that have the support doublade requires are basically only fat balance or stall, which can generally run better checks to the main fighting types than doublade. Don't get me wrong, there is definitely some fat balance out there that doublade is a perfect fit for, but I'm not sure if there's enough of them to rank it, considering buzzwole (which is a solid pick for stall builds similarly to how doublade is for fat balance, except buzz is far more common) didn't get ranked when it was nommed a while ago.

TLDR: Doublade has a level of viability, but it is lower than other UR mons, so it probably shouldn't be ranked. It's more viable than that shitmon nihilego though.

 

[Finchinator]

closing for new super cool ultra up to date hyped up slate, hopefully re-opening with update by the end of the weekend!

 

[Finchinator]

update will be up tomorrow, thanks to everyone for their patience thus far!

 

[Finchinator]

Blacephalon from B- to UR

full slate

Rises
Tapu Koko from A+ to S- - A+ A+ A+ S- A+ - stay
Clefable from A to A+ - A+ A+ A+ A+ A+ - rise
Tornadus-T from A- to A - A A A A A - rise
Hoopa-Unbound from A- to A - idk A A- A- A- - stay
Zapdos from A- to A - A- A- A- A- A- - stay
Alakazam-Mega from B+ to A- - B+ B+ B+ B+ B+ - stay
Gastrodon from B to A- (can say B+) - B+ A- B+ B+ B+ - rise to B+
Reuniclus from B to A- (can say B+) - B+ B+ B+ B+ B+ - rise to B+
Latias-Mega from B+ to A- - A- A- A- A- A- - rise
Mew from B to B+ - B B+ B B B+ - stay
Gyarados from B to B+ - B+ B B+ B+ B+ - rise
Heracross-Mega from B- to B - B B- B- B- B - stay
Hippowdon from C+ to B- - B- C+ B- B- B- - rise
Alakazam from C to C+ - C+ C+ C C C - stay
Kommo-O from UR to C- - idk UR UR UR idk - stay
Golem-Alola from UR to C- - C- C- C- C- idk - rank C-
Slowking from UR to C- - idk C- UR UR UR - stay
Virizion from UR to C- - idk UR UR UR UR - stay
Doublade from UR to C- - idk UR UR UR UR - stay

Drops
Toxapex from S- to A+ - idk A+ A+ A+ A+ - drop
Tapu Lele from A+ to A - A A A A A - drop
Kyurem-Black from A to A- - A- A- A- A- A- - drop
Lopunny-Mega from A- to B+ - B+ B+ B+ B+ B+ - drop
Mawile-Mega from A- to B+ - A- A- A- A- A- - stay
Blacephalon from B- to C+ - C+ C+ UR UR UR C+ - drop to UR
Skarmory from B- to C+ - B- C+ C+ C+ C+ - drop
Sharpedo-Mega from C to C- - IDK C- IDK UR C- - drop
Salamence from C- to UR - IDK UR IDK C- UR - drop to UR
Volcarona from A+ to A - A A A A A - drop

Changes

Clefable from A to A+ - A+ A+ A+ A+ A+ - rise
Tornadus-T from A- to A - A A A A A - rise
Gastrodon from B to A- (can say B+) - B+ A- B+ B+ B+ - rise to B+
Reuniclus from B to A- (can say B+) - B+ B+ B+ B+ B+ - rise to B+
Latias-Mega from B+ to A- - A- A- A- A- A- - rise
Gyarados from B to B+ - B+ B B+ B+ B+ - rise
Hippowdon from C+ to B- - B- C+ B- B- B- - rise
Golem-Alola from UR to C- - C- C- C- C- idk - rank C-

Toxapex from S- to A+ - idk A+ A+ A+ A+ - drop
Tapu Lele from A+ to A - A A A A A - drop
Kyurem-Black from A to A- - A- A- A- A- A- - drop
Lopunny-Mega from A- to B+ - B+ B+ B+ B+ B+ - drop
Blacephalon from B- to C+ - C+ C+ UR UR UR C+ - drop to UR
Skarmory from B- to C+ - B- C+ C+ C+ C+ - drop
Sharpedo-Mega from C to C- - IDK C- IDK UR C- - drop
Salamence from C- to UR - IDK UR IDK C- UR - drop to UR
Volcarona from A+ to A - A A A A A - drop

Rises

• Clefable from A to A+ -- Clefable has been one of the premier Stealth Rock setters for a long time now and it is only picking up in usage as more time elapses. It has a number of relevant utility options, the ability to function as a win condition with Calm Mind, and the defensive capabilities to check a large quantity of noteworthy threats. All things considered, Clefable is one of the tier's best Pokemon and this rise may be a tad overdue even.
• Tornadus-T from A- to A -- Ever since the Z-Hurricane Defog variant of Tornadus-T popped up in the middle of SPL, we really have never looked back with this unkillable, mono-Flying nuisance. With an insane amount of utility and unprecedented longevity for a relatively frail Pokemon, Tornadus-T is and will continue to be a superb metagame pick that is not particularly hard to fit onto teams. While it normally takes up the Z slot and also is Stealth Rock weak itself, Tornadus-T easily makes up for this with great Speed, Regenerator, Defog, and the threatening combination of Hurricane, Knock Off, and U-turn.
• Gastrodon from B to B+ -- Everyone's favorite Slug has shot up in popularity since SPL playoffs and Gastrodon has now solidified itself as a legitimate defensive option in the metagame. Being able to check Greninja (most notably Protean variants), Tapu Koko, and Heatran goes a long way in this tier.
• Reuniclus from B to B+ -- While seeing a significant portion of its usage on the Cdumas team that has been spammed all over, Reuniclus has been an underrated win condition for a while now and people have been finding this out and taking advantage of the fact more and more as of late, so it will move up a rank to reflect this.
• Latias Mega from B+ to A- -- Mega Latias, much like Reuniclus, is an underrated win condition that is hard to kill. It has a number of options, even if most revolve around Stored Power and Calm Mind, and you have to often go out of your way to cater to it in teambuilding. Given how deadly it can be in the context of many games, we decided to move it up.
• Gyarados from B to B+ -- Pretty straightforward: strong sweeper that straight-up beats some teams given the spamming of HP Ice Defog Scarf Landorus-T as the revenge killer.
• Hippowdon from C+ to B- -- Hippowdon is crazy bulky and has been seeing quite a bit of usage on Stallish teams. Overall, it probably should have never dipped into the Cs and it is now finding its way back up with a slight rise in overall usage and defensive niche.
• Golem-Alola from UR to C- -- Niche Steel trapper that can get rid of Heatran with a Choice Scarf equipped. Often excels the most when paired with Eject Button Toxapex and has had some success on various teams used in recent months.

Drops

• Toxapex from S- to A+ -- Everyone's favorite unkillable bulky-water has fallen out of favor a bit due to recent metagame trends and this drop reflects that. Honestly, there is a legitimate case to drop most of S- to A+ and perhaps even remove the subrank entirely, so that may be something we consider moving forward. Regardless, Toxapex will drop for now as a reflection of it falling in overall effectiveness relative to other S- Pokemon.
• Tapu Lele from A+ to A -- Not many people use Tapu Lele anymore. The Choice Scarf set used to run the place, but now it never surfaces anymore. Z and Choice Specs sets still are very much passable, but they are far from as common as the other A+ Pokemon and while they can be effective, counterplay has increased in usage, thus leading to a drop.
• Kyurem-Black from A to A- -- It has been a while since Tapu Koko + Kyurem-Black ran the metagame and since then, Kyurem-Black has seen a steady decline in usage and niche. The Z set is still a surefire kill if not clicked into a Heatran or Scizor, more or less, and the LO set is a pain in the ass to handle for most teams, but Stealth Rock weakness, average Speed, and a number of other shortcomings have finally surfaced, thus decreasing the overall viability of Kyurem-Black.
• Mega Lopunny from A- to B+ -- Mega Lopunny is always going to be a passable option, but there have not been many teams with it recently and a lot of checks and counters to it are fairly high in usage right now (i.e: Clefable). Therefore, it dropped off a little bit.
• Blacephalon from B- to UR -- Nice prep.
• Skarmory from B- to C+ -- Nobody uses Skarmory outside of Stall teams and even there Skarmory has not shown up on too many recent builds, so it will slowly fall off the face of the Earth as this continues to occur.
• Mega Sharpedo from C to C- -- Nobody uses Mega Sharpedo either and there has really been no reason to either, so it drops down.
• Salamence from C- to UR -- It was cool for a month when people spammed the DD Z set all over the ladder and even in some tournament games, but there really is none of that anymore, nor any reasons to use Salamence, so it shall drop to the realm of unviable pocket monsters!
• Volcarona from A+ to A -- Late addition to my slate, but we all agreed it didn't see enough usage to be A+. While it is potent and has incredibly high upside, there is also an opportunity cost and when not many people want to take the risk of using Volcarona, especially given how much support it needs, it should be no surprise to seeing it drop off a little.

Sorry this took forever, but finals and being in like a million tournaments have taken up literally all of my time lately -- if you have any questions for me, ask them after this coming Monday and I will be as free as a bird (do not before then because I will very likely ignore you). If Leo, GMars, Colonel M, or Team pokepals could update the OP with these changes tonight, it'd be great -- if not, I'll get around to it tomorrow!

happy posting!

 

[Altervisi]

Awesome update!

Gloating

Me:

Kyurem-B A -> A-
I'm going to nom Kyurem for a drop, it seems a bit overrated in A

Response:

I think the rest of your post is fine but I have to heaavilly disagree with this nom right here.

I'm also gonna disagree with the Kyurem drop,

I also disagree with a drop on KyuBlack,

Kyurem-B A -> A- Disagree

Kyurem A -> A- Disagree

I think the appropriate response here is 'y'all can eat my butt'.

Kyurem-Black from A to A-

Blacephalon getting unranked is something that was easy to see, plus as hilarious as it is fair, I think some reasoning should be added before we get 1000 posts asking why/nomming it to be ranked. I agree with pretty much everything here except Lele, it is still exemplary at beating Stall and it's Terrain is arguably the best of all Tapu's (team dependent), Scarf is decent, Calm Mind wrecks and Specs its a decent breaker, Metronome isn't bad either. I think S- should stay a thing, Heatran is at home there and honestly Koko and Magearna should be there if Kartana is. I know there is a sort of a policy on not just commenting on a slate but I tried to just include things that would be relevant still next slate (other than my gloating lol).

However, to avoid this I'll make a nom too. I will say that if Blace and Salamence got axed than I think I can safely nominate Mega-Sharpedo to UR, this thing is one of the biggest examples of mons being left behind by the power creep, it has to dedicate a moveslot to Protect which sucks because it needs all the coverage it can get its hands on, it is very underpowered before evolving and not that great after, and the obvious heavy competition is Gyarados, which is much less predictable, can actually boost its attack to keep up with the meta and has 3 useful abilities to play with, Strong Jaw isn't enough of a boost and it severely limits the moves Sharpedo can effectively run, it also has better moves and coverage, as well as space on its moveset to run tech like Taunt/Substitute or coverage.

 

[cityscapes]

However, to avoid this I'll make a nom too. I will say that if Blace and Salamence got axed than I think I can safely nominate Mega-Sharpedo to UR, this thing is one of the biggest examples of mons being left behind by the power creep, it has to dedicate a moveslot to Protect which sucks because it needs all the coverage it can get its hands on, it is very underpowered before evolving and not that great after, and the obvious heavy competition is Gyarados, which is much less predictable, can actually boost its attack to keep up with the meta and has 3 useful abilities to play with, Strong Jaw isn't enough of a boost and it severely limits the moves Sharpedo can effectively run, it also has better moves and coverage, as well as space on its moveset to run tech like Taunt/Substitute or coverage.

disagree

first off you literally just listed shark's shortcomings. we know it has to run protect, we know it has trouble getting ohkos on stuff, we know it faces competition from gyara as a water/dark type. this is why it's so low.

but when you look at the metagame, things have only gotten better for shark if anything. toxapex, the main thorn in shark's side, has dropped in usage and now favors spdef spreads (which are 2hkod by crunch from full). magearna has dropped, and av variants struggle to stay healthy during a game (meaning that more often than not it won't be an obstacle for shark when it comes in late-game). gastrodon has risen recently and that can't switch in. clefable is kind of annoying for it, but that can be bypassed with psychic terrain + psychic fangs which 2hkos even full physdef.

hyper offense is very rare. balance and bulky offense teams are the face of the metagame. if you don't believe me, just look at the most recent replays from spl in the linked post and all the posts below it. every single team is some kind of balance of bulky offense; ho and full stall are nonexistent. sharpedo really benefits from this because these teams are a lot easier to slowly wear down to the point where it can clean up late game.

something nice about shark that gyarados can't offer is the ability to break in the mid-game without having to set up. as long as you don't need the extra speed boost later on (shark's 105 base speed is usually more than sufficient against most mons on bulkier teams), you can bring in psychic terrain, then get shark in through u-turn or something, then suddenly crunch + psychic fangs 2hkos everybody. you force out defensive lando, you force out pex (psychic fangs ohkos in terrain lol), you force out heatran. it doesn't have the breaking power of something like kyub, but at the same time it isn't something you can just shut down like hawlucha. a niche pick to be sure, but it's nowhere near unviable.

 

[Finchinator]

These quote-by-quote half-nitpick half-fundamental disagreement back-and-forths half to stop. Sharpedo is completely irrelevant and this discussion ends now. Don’t make me relock.

 

[Leo]

Blacephalon going to UR doesn't give you guys an excuse to suddenly ignore the vr rules and start shitposting/dropping random 1-liners. Feel free to PM any VR council member (I'd recomment Finchinator) with your thoughts and questions regarding the drop but please don't derail the thread with them. Any 1-liner from now on will be infracted

 

[Ryomathekillers]

Tyranitar-Mega B+ -> A-
Tyranitar is once again a fantastic rocker in this meta being able to get rocks up against the two most relevant defogers (zapdos and tornadus although the Superpower set is a viable option it isn't exactly all too common to stop a potential rise), It also can beat scarf lando on the switch if you opt to run ice punch, the mega slot has become alot more free and Mega Tyranitar loves that as it is not hard to fit on teams and brings great utility, it also provides sand which is nice for mons like Tran and Lando.

Qwilfish C -> B-
I feel like most people are really underestimating how much importance this thing brings to rain teams, it easily manages to break holes in the opposing team and weaken them leaving room for your other members to sweep, it also doesn't get beaten by Scarf Gren which is nice. Without this mon many sweeps under rain would be near impossible. To prove that I'm not talking complete trash about how viable Qwilfish is I have a replay to provide, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-725591540
While not a top tier threat, rain is by no means a niche playstyle and I find that whenever i'm building rain, after Peli and Swampert the first thing that pops into my head is Qwilfish as he has just become a staple for them and due to that I find that B- is more than worthy for the minefish.

Garchomp B -> C+
The Drop of skarmory reminded me of this pokemon and I rememberd just how worthless it was, while skarm has a niche on stall which is more or less the only reason why it is still ranked, what does Garchomp have? I find very very few situations where you would decide to use this over zygarde,lando or even M-tyranitar as garchomp rarely has a use and is just outclassed in whatever field it decides to venture into.

Zapdos A- -> A
This mon is just fantastic at the moment, it is by far one of the most noteworthy pokemon in the tier, for teams with a Z move user Zapdos is by far the best bet for a defoger as it manages to prove it's longevity with roost, it also manages to get off defog easily against common mons like Ferrothorn and Lando T who have more or less no chance against the defensive set, even without HP ice, it is also by far the best Lucha check which every team appreciates. Many pokemon (like mega latias) who want to set up on Zapdos cannot switch in without the potential Discharge para and with Pressure this mon is quite useful against stall. I just find Zapdos (like Tornadus-T) Becoming more and more of a vital centerpiece in the meta and I feel that A- does not represent that.

 

[Scuba Diver]

View attachment 115114Tyranitar-Mega B+ -> A-
Tyranitar is once again a fantastic rocker in this meta being able to get rocks up against the two most relevant defogers (zapdos and tornadus although the Superpower set is a viable option it isn't exactly all too common to stop a potential rise), It also can beat scarf lando on the switch if you opt to run ice punch, the mega slot has become alot more free and Mega Tyranitar loves that as it is not hard to fit on teams and brings great utility, it also provides sand which is nice for mons like Tran and Lando.

View attachment 115113Qwilfish C -> B-
I feel like most people are really underestimating how much importance this thing brings to rain teams, it easily manages to break holes in the opposing team and weaken them leaving room for your other members to sweep, it also doesn't get beaten by Scarf Gren which is nice. Without this mon many sweeps under rain would be near impossible. To prove that I'm not talking complete trash about how viable Qwilfish is I have a replay to provide, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-725591540
While not a top tier threat, rain is by no means a niche playstyle and I find that whenever i'm building rain, after Peli and Swampert the first thing that pops into my head is Qwilfish as he has just become a staple for them and due to that I find that B- is more than worthy for the minefish.


View attachment 115112Garchomp B -> C+
The Drop of skarmory reminded me of this pokemon and I rememberd just how worthless it was, while skarm has a niche on stall which is more or less the only reason why it is still ranked, what does Garchomp have? I find very very few situations where you would decide to use this over zygarde,lando or even M-tyranitar as garchomp rarely has a use and is just outclassed in whatever field it decides to venture into.


View attachment 115111Zapdos A- -> A
This mon is just fantastic at the moment, it is by far one of the most noteworthy pokemon in the tier, for teams with a Z move user Zapdos is by far the best bet for a defoger as it manages to prove it's longevity with roost, it also manages to get off defog easily against common mons like Ferrothorn and Lando T who have more or less no chance against the defensive set, even without HP ice, it is also by far the best Lucha check which every team appreciates. Many pokemon (like mega latias) who want to set up on Zapdos cannot switch in without the potential Discharge para and with Pressure this mon is quite useful against stall. I just find Zapdos (like Tornadus-T) Becoming more and more of a vital centerpiece in the meta and I feel that A- does not represent that.

I’ll just comment on Garchomp and Zapdos.

I think Garchomp brings a few notable traits that should keep it in B-, there are certain BO squads that just get maimed by a well played chomp. It’s in a much better speed tier than Lando and Zygarde which does matter. Dragonium is still solid, and if anything the general decline of Skarmory is a plus for chomp. Poison Jab is a viable tech for killing Bulu for Ash-Ninja, I don’t think that’s a negligible trait. While Zygarde has a much wider variety of sets because it can run mono-attack sets, I think their current rankings reflect this.

I totally agree with raising Zapdos. It really has everything going for it, respectable speed and attack for a bulky mon while offering a strong check to some really scary stuff like Bulu, Kartana and Hawlucha and Pinsir. I think it’s my defogger of choice, no other defogger has such a combined combo of defensive and offensive utility. Rocky Helmet static also provides a soft check to stuff like Lopunny and punishes non-Rockium Lando even more than standard Zap. Get this thing into A.

 

[Mellow]

• Blacephalon from B- to UR -- Nice prep.

​

• No flaming and being an idiot. You'll get warned if you purposely do. This specifically includes making joke nominations about other users.

what was that about abiding by rules of the thread?

anyway, slate was good apart from that decision, my nigga alolem got ranked and hippo finally got the rank it deserves.
here's a nom i've wanted to make for a while:

Zygarde A+ -> S-

This Pokemon is actually fucking broken. The number of sets it can viably run is unrivaled in OU, here's a list of them;

sets (not in any particular order)

DD Dragonium, Choice Band, DD Groundium, Sub DD + Lefties, Weakness Policy, DD Steelium, Double Dance w Fat Berry, Assault Vest, Sub Coil, Sub Toxic/Glare, SpDef Rest Talk (probably more but this is just the ones I could think of rn)

Zygarde can get around pretty much any counter with the multitude of different sets it can run. Coil beats Mega Scizor and Bulu, Weakness Policy beats Clefable, Landorus, Shuca Koko, Scarf Greninja trying to Revenge and Fini, SpDef RestTalk also beats Clefable, Shuca Koko, Fini and also Tangrowth, This nom isn't so much that much has changed in the meta, its more that people have been discovering just how many viable sets this thing can run; my list doesn't even include some of the more experimental ones (Camouflage + ESpeed for example). I'd say the Weakness Policy set would be the one pushing Zygarde into S-: LL wrote a nice post about it in Creative Sets.
As for replays for the set, BKC 6-0d z0mog in SPL Semifinals here - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-360338
This thing is definitely on level with Kartana and Heatran for their impact on the metagame - it's practically impossible to viably cover every set Zygarde can run. Get the broken ass snake into S-.

 

[Finchinator]

what was that about abiding by rules of the thread?

The rules you cited included three potential clauses that can be broken and thus lead to a warning; those clauses are flaming, being an idiot, and making joke nominations about other users.

We can right-off-the-bat take out the "joke nominations about other users" part seeing as Blacephalon is not a user, this was not a nomination (it was a slate vote), and you need to fulfill those two criteria to fit that clause. The applicable definition of flaming can be found here and this was not an argument, nor were any personal attacks said (it was a slate vote and all that was said was simply "nice prep"), thus leaving this clause out of the realm of possibilities, too. Finally, being an idiot is in the eye of the beholder and all of the other moderators supported this change at the time, so I do not see this as applicable either.

However, I do feel that you may be a bit hypocritical in your false accusation seeing as you resorted to "flaming" within your own post, as you can see here:

anyway, slate was good apart from that retardation

I would strongly advise you to refrain from using such language within your posts moving forward (same goes for anyone else posting, too).

---

All things considered, I normally would delete remarks like yours seeing as they not only have no place, but also actually do violate the rules given that language, but seeing as there have been a plethora of similar posts in the past day and the rest of your post is actually productive and proper, I will just use this as an example and a platform to expand and explain.

Blacephalon started in A- rank and has worked its way all the way down, thus meaning that it has been dropped a number of times and justification was provided before, in all likelihood. Here is previous explanation:

• Blacephalon got introduced and was hyped up immediately, but with counterplay consisting of multiple very common threats and it being one of the most frail Pokemon in the tier, it has not really ever been worth using and it continues to fall in popularity as people see that it is worse than they believed over time. While it still has a clear niche, being frail, SR weak, and walled by Toxapex, trapped by Tyranitar, and at least checked temporarily by numerous others such as Ash Greninja, it should be no surprise whatsoever that the newly introduced Ghost/Fire type is nowhere near top tier and dropping down to B+.

The other two times it dropped I did not take it particularly seriously trying to explain myself, but given the number of posts it received in the thread and the initial prolonged justification, I believed this was more than enough. It's hard to write everything out after gathering the entire slate and monitoring the thread for weeks between votes. Sometimes, it's cool to have a joke or two in there so long as nothing is compromised and this is very much that. I'm sorry if anyone took offense to it, but I see no actual issues.

This is the last note on this topic, btw. Anything beyond this will likely derail the thread and will likely be deleted. Keep on topic!

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I'd like to nominate Qwilfish to drop to C-/UR. Now I dont know why people have hyped this up other than some bandwagon and frankly I don't care; this train of disdain is not stopping anytime soon ( unless... #BanOmariP2018). The main reason it was ever brought up was that it has spikes and it beats bulu (they specifically mentioned that it will only go on a rain team and thus the context is extremely specific there). There are few things wrong with this, not only is this not coming in on bulu whatsoever, it is walled pretty easily - because for context, it is a 95 base attack mon - and it's easily taken out. This mon isnt a kindra, its not even a koko or ninja ( frail fast sweepers). It's defenses are 65/85/55. This goes down to neutral attacks. Also It's sd explosion set isnt that strong either. If ur team suffers against bulu in rain, there are many other mons that u can choose from that make it far better. (Ferro, kart (fuck the scarf set use a real set), any flying mon, kingdra with ice beam or z ice, torn t or thundy/thundy-t, muk, toxicroak, etc). Let's stop the bullshit, please.

Just so you know how weak it is, lets do some calcs; I'm using mew as a base bc it's 100/100/100.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 357-420 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 130-154 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 280-331 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 313-369 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO a fucking joke
252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Rain: 239-282 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Rain: 477-563 (139.8 - 165.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Mew Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Qwilfish: 282-332 (104 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Comparison
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mew Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 211-249 (72.2 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish: 141-166 (52 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish in Grassy Terrain: 322-379 (118.8 - 139.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
( this is why I said its not coming in)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 170-202 (49.5 - 58.8%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Have a good weekend, I got happy hour in 2 hours.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

I'd like to nominate Qwilfish to drop to C-/UR. Now I dont know why people have hyped this up other than some bandwagon and frankly I don't care; this train of disdain is not stopping anytime soon ( unless... #BanOmariP2018). The main reason it was ever brought up was that it has spikes and it beats bulu (they specifically mentioned that it will only go on a rain team and thus the context is extremely specific there). There are few things wrong with this, not only is this not coming in on bulu whatsoever, it is walled pretty easily - because for context, it is a 95 base attack mon - and it's easily taken out. This mon isnt a kindra, its not even a koko or ninja ( frail fast sweepers). It's defenses are 65/85/55. This goes down to neutral attacks. Also It's sd explosion set isnt that strong either. If ur team suffers against bulu in rain, there are many other mons that u can choose from that make it far better. (Ferro, kart (fuck the scarf set use a real set), any flying mon, kingdra with ice beam or z ice, torn t or thundy/thundy-t, muk, toxicroak, etc). Let's stop the bullshit, please.

Just so you know how weak it is, lets do some calcs; I'm using mew as a base bc it's 100/100/100.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 357-420 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 130-154 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 280-331 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 313-369 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO a fucking joke
252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Rain: 239-282 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Rain: 477-563 (139.8 - 165.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Mew Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Qwilfish: 282-332 (104 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Comparison
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mew Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 211-249 (72.2 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish: 141-166 (52 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish in Grassy Terrain: 322-379 (118.8 - 139.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
( this is why I said its not coming in)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 170-202 (49.5 - 58.8%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Have a good weekend, I got happy hour in 2 hours.

Omari, have you perhaps considerd that Qwilfish uses swords dance for a reason? And that it's main niche is not to clean, it's to break open teams for other mons such as kingdra to sweep. Ofc it dies to strong neutral hits, then again, a Bulu woodhammer is really fucking strong and manages to beat most "switch ins". Qwilfish's use on rain teams is really appreciated for other mons and it is not exactly like Kingdra likes taking a bulu woodhammer either. Qwilfish can and does beat many threats (or weaken them to a level where another sweeper can take them out) on several pokemon that threaten rain, such as Ferrothorn,Tangrowth,Toxapex, Bulu and so on, it's usage is really worthwile and I find that a rise is much more deserving than a fall.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

yo Ryomathekillers I really have some important drinking to do so I'm gonna have to just do what we do in law papers even though it seems pretty mean in context.

Your claims are that,
-Qwilfish has sword dances -> thus it uses it because it is naturally weak as shit.
-It is weak as shit -> thus it's role is not to sweep nor clean but wall break
-It's frail -> thus it dies to *strong* neutral hits
-"a Bulu woodhammer is really fucking strong and manages to beat most "switch ins". " -this is a non sequitur and thus I am taking it out
- Qwilfish beats mons on rain such as: Ferrothorn,Tangrowth,Toxapex, Bulu -> thus it is good.
- Because of all of these reasons -> it's usage is really worthwhile and I find that a rise is much more deserving than a fall.

Issues:

-Qwilfish is not breaking ferrothron, and it has to explode on pex (it actually can survive if it's not +2 or just switch out so your riding on flimsy stuff there) and is a poison so it obvs beats bulu.
-It cannot do a free sword dance on any mon, and pex hazes, burns it, and even then your choices are to explode, or just let it recover. -Good players will switch out since it is at +2 and u b/c its in their best interest to in that moment(if you ant the decision tree i can def do it for you) so you lose ur breaker.
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 242-289 (59.9 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 100 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish: 182-216 (67.1 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- It is pretty interesting that you admitted that it is frailer than fuck but also mentioned setup? Your entire premise of it being good in rain and only rain is that it gets to +2 for free and breaks. Mind giving a list of mons it sets upon? B/c if you cannot then your reasoning that it does SD and can break is flawed, most good players will not let it setup b/c it's a very easy kill and is not a threat usually

P.S, it's worth noting that there are several swift swimmers that kill these mons
edit: error on toxic my b
edit 2: absolutely nowhere did I say bulu is the perfect measure of strength nor did I even hint at that or use it in that way lmao i legit dont know what ur talking about, even in ur own quote I clearly stated "this is why I said its not coming in" since it's supposed to beat bulu. BTW a better choice and one that should be ranked far before the qwil is poliwrath. has the same attack, +beats all those mons u named and is much much better. it gets poison jab + eq + belly drum/pup and is fighting so ur weak to psychic still but ur far bulkier.
edit 3: after reading ur posts fully, I don't think you've read mine lmao

 

[Ryomathekillers]

yo Ryomathekillers I really have some important drinking to do so I'm gonna have to just do what we do in law papers even though it seems pretty mean in context.

Your claims are that,
-Qwilfish has sword dances -> thus it uses it because it is naturally weak as shit.
-It is weak as shit -> thus it's role is not to sweep nor clean but wall break
-It's frail -> thus it dies to *strong* neutral hits
-"a Bulu woodhammer is really fucking strong and manages to beat most "switch ins". " -this is a non sequitur and thus I am taking it out
- Qwilfish beats mons on rain such as: Ferrothorn,Tangrowth,Toxapex, Bulu -> thus it is good.
- Because of all of these reasons -> it's usage is really worthwhile and I find that a rise is much more deserving than a fall.

Issues:

-Qwilfish is not breaking ferrothron, and it has to explode on pex (it actually can survive if it's not +2 or just switch out so your riding on flimsy stuff there) and is a poison so it obvs beats bulu.
-It cannot do a free sword dance on any mon, and pex hazes, burns it, or toxics, and even then your choices are to explode, or just let it recover. -Good players will switch out since it is at +2 and they toxic u b/ cin their best interest to in that moment(if you ant the decision tree i can def do it for you) so you lose ur breaker.
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 242-289 (59.9 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 100 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish: 182-216 (67.1 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- It is pretty interesting that you admitted that it is frailer than fuck but also mentioned setup? Your entire premise of it being good in rain and only rain is that it gets to +2 for free and breaks. Mind giving a list of mons it sets upon? B/c if you cannot then your reasoning that it does SD and can break is flawed, most good players will not let it setup b/c it's a very easy kill and is not a threat usually

P.S, it's worth noting that there are several swift swimmers that kill these mons

Qwilfish can infact beat Ferrothorn with liquidation or severly damage it due to swords dance, It is weak without a SD boost but once it gets it up (which is quite easy to do since it forces many threats out) it can take out many many threats, It beats pex with a +2 Explosion (and yes qwilfish clearly fears the toxic from a pex despite it being a poison type), it gets a SD off and then weakens the main pokemon that stop rain sweeps which then lets other pokemon take them out then letting the rain sweep actually happen. Ofc this mon is not a major threat but I do not think that it should be ranked alongside mons like Crawdaunt. It clearly has a use on rain teams and I don't think that C reflects that.

It is not good because it beats those mons, it's good because it kills or weakens them to a state where a strong hit can take them out

I would also like to mention that the mon you seemed to use alot as a example of a pokemon who is better than qwilfish has many faults, it handles Bulu worse since at least Qwilfish can Force it out and OHKO it, you seem to call qwilfish frail because it dies to a woodhammer yet kingdra falls to one aswell? I fail to see the use in using a Bulu wood hammer as a "measurement of strength" because as I mentioned, it is rather strong.
I also fail to find your measurement of power to be correct, sure kingdra does have a higher base power move and specs, but qwilfish has SD so in one of the many scenarios that it forces something out due to either something being choice locked into a move or just the fact that they don't want to take a Poison jab, it manages to outdamage Kingdra which I feel you are neglecting to mention. (that being said Ashgren does actually more or less outclass the use for Kingdra on rain and esp considering that Ashgren beats Scarftana under rain)

It's usage on rain teams is noteworthy and I fail to see how your points should provide valid reason to unrank the minefish.

That being said, if you would like to continue this please do it in dms as I would not like this to take over the thread.

 

[naturalstupidity]

Nominating Rotom-W to B-/C+

When you look at B+ right now, everything pretty much makes sense except this guy. Seriously, what does it do? It rose from early USUM hype about getting Defog, but the problem with that is that a bunch of infinitely better stuff also got Defog (though it fills a different role, I'd much sooner use Lando-T/Kart/Gliscor/Torn-T for Defog, and that's just counting the ones that got it in USUM). The only thing Rotom does is sit there and wish it was Zapdos. Honestly, Zapdos just does everything Rotom does but better. Despite being Rocks weak it's an infinitely better Defogger, reliable recovery and a better defensive typing makes Zapdos a much better blanket check to things like Pinsir and Lucha than Rotom could ever hope to be, and it even gets Volt Switch too if you want it to pivot. The only niche I see this having over Zapdos is being a Water resist and forcing out Heatran, but

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 108-127 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 157-186 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and if you're using specially defensive Rotom then you're making a mistake. As for Heatran, the rise of Gastro means that Bloom Doom Tran is coming back, and that utterly destroys Rotom. Right now B+ has two "glue" mons that are comparable in role to Rotom (Tangrowth and Gastrodon, I guess Venu but I won't talk about it since it takes a Mega slot) and when you compare Rotom to them it becomes clear that Rotom does not belong. Both are great blanket checks to a bunch of top metagame threats, have reliable recovery, and are reliable pivots. Rotom's middling defenses and lack of useful resistances mean that it's getting chunked whenever it comes in on a neutral hit, and with only Pain Split to keep you healthy you're getting worn down really quickly. (keep in mind that if you want Pain Split you probably have to give up Will-o-Wisp, which leaves you helpless and complete bait against things like Bulu, Kyu-B, and even Zygarde) And again, why not just use Zapdos?

I've seen people claim that Rotom's niche lies in offensive Waterium-Z sets, but that argument falls flat. Every team has a solid Water resist due to Ash-Gren running around, so with decent prediction that Hydro Vortex is getting sucked up easily. And without significant investment in either defense Rotom becomes even more susceptible to chip, leaving it unable to do its job of Defogging with any consistency. Flyinium-Z Torn works because Flying is an incredible offensive type, and Regenerator gives it the durability to come back in and clear hazards. Rotom has none of that. Whether offensive or defensive, this thing is one of the least reliable Defoggers in the tier. And again, why not just use Zapdos?

I said B- at the top so that this drop wasn't too drastic (although Blace just showed us that ought not be a concern) but I'm convinced this deserves C+ or even lower. Even in B-, we see mons like Amoonguss, Tapu Fini, and Jirachi, which although somewhat niche options fulfill their roles excellently and contribute a lot to teams that need their specific support. I'd sooner use any of these mons on a team than Rotom. Rotom legitimately has no niche. Because again, why not just use Zapdos?

tl;dr Rotom sucks, just use Zapdos, drop pls

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Zapdos: A- -> A
Zapdos has been making the rounds as one of OU’s most useful pokemon. It counters a huge threat in hawlucha as well as flying types in general. And with its bulky spread, it can take a ton of hits and just roost up. The speedy spread gets the benefit of beating zygarde. It can also defog very effectively against most rockers. Although a weakness to rocks kinda sucks, it’s proven itself to be a capable A pokemon imo.