Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[ZiodyneDX]

I agree with M-Latios getting a rise.
Currently it is one of the most useful and versatile MegaMons in the tier outside of M-Scizor and is effective on both offesnive and balance teams

The likes of Tapu Lele and Celesteela dropping in usage has helped it a lot. It can easilty deal with so many commonly used mons.
Not including Heatran, Landorus-T, Zapdos, M-Medicham, Zygarde abd even Clefable and Gastrodon with the proper support. It is one of the few Mega's that can fullil more than one role or niche for your team. So its a prime canidate for your Mega Slot

 

[Vengeance417]

I nominate Salamence for C- from unlisted.

Guys, before you kill me for nominating a shadowrealmed mon, hear me out.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-749516082
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-747529709

Ok, here is the set for the Salamence I'm nominating:

Salamence @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Spe / 252 SpA / 4 Atk ( you can opt for a bulkier spread to capitalize more on intimidate )
Naive Nature
- Fire Blast
- Hydro Pump / Stone Edge
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake

Reason #1 for why Sala with this set is viable in the meta: Insane levels of coverage and good level of power in one set

Looking at the set, there are few pokemon in OU that are not 2HKOed or OHKOed by the coverage moves of salamence or by Draco Meteor. Almost anything that Draco Meteor does not 2HKO its coverage moves do.

calcs

0 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 216-255 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 152 SpD Gliscor: 294-346 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal ( it would be OHKO for the stallbreaker variant )

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 335-395 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery ( OHKO for more offensive variants )

0 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 278-328 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 182-216 (53 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 367-434 (110.2 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 169-200 (55.7 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Yeah, sala is gonna break through a lot stuff with support.

The mons that Sala breaks through and surprises easily in one set are very relevant pokemon, like Ferro, gliscor, Lando, scizor, bulu, heatran, celesteela, and others. This gives it a niche as an anti-meta mon that can force switches on many common pokemon in the meta.

And I realize that you can say "gren does the job better; it has more speed and protean and u-turn". However, that brings me to my second reason why Salamence has a niche ( albeit a small one ) in this meta:

Reason #2 for why Sala with this set is viable in the meta: It doesn't have that hard a time switching in compared to other pokemon with the same level of coverage

Intimidate, combined with 5 resistances and 1 immunity to ground, gives it a good deal of opportunities to switch in. While greninja might have more resistances, it lacks intimidate and the ground immunity, making tanking physical hits from pokemon like landorus or kart or finding an opportunity to take advantage of an immunity significantly harder for gren than Salamence. It can then capitalize on the switch in to force the other pokemon out and either allow one of your own mons to switch in, or hit the mon switching in with a coverage move. This is something greninja does not do as well, especially with its lower bulk without intimidate and lower hp, def, and spdef than salamence.

This gives salamence an edge as a switch-in to physcial attackers that can do some real damage, separating itself from greninja.

These key differences are why I believe Salamence deserves a ranking in the VR as a niche mon that can both provide a lot of coverage and function as a switch in to meta pokemons.

You could probably opt for Iron Tail between the Hydro Pump and Stone Edge slots to cover Clefable and non-Scarf Tapu Lele, but the accuracy is shit.

However, I still have to disagree with this nomination. People have already said that Mega Latios outclasses Salamence, but I also feel that Kyurem-B does, as well. It has the tools to deal with Toxapex, Mantine, and other bulky waters (Electrium Z, Life Orb Fusion Bolt), Clefable (Icium Z, Life Orb Iron Head), and Gastrodon (Icium Z) while still being able to deal with the targets that your Salamence set hits. Keep Salamence unranked.

 

[Gross Sweep]

I'm going to address the Salamence nomination, since I've always had a soft spot for the mon as I'm an Emerald guy, and I hate to see it discussed like this. First of all if you're going to nom Salamence please know its best set in the current meta. At this stage of the generation anyone posting in this thread should be comfortable enough with the mon in question to know all of their set options. The option you seem to be missing is Flyinium Z Salamence.

The mons that Sala breaks through and surprises easily in one set are very relevant pokemon, like Ferro, gliscor, Lando, scizor, bulu, heatran, celesteela, and others. This gives it a niche as an anti-meta mon that can force switches on many common pokemon in the meta.

You also discuss mons it lures and beats with its coverage, that it just doesn't lure. I have no idea why Heatran is on this list; I cannot even remember the last time I saw a Salamence that wasn't running Earthquake. You also list fat Grass Types like Bulu, which are just something to DD on for a significant portion of Salamence - who then either burns through the Z move or uses regular Fly to force out (no one remotely competent is using Bulu as their Mence answer).

I also hate to bash on the replays, but they were fairly subpar as well. Your team utilized M-Sceptile who is just bad in OU, and one replay put you against a team with no ground type and a Goodra - not exactly a high caliber replay that inspires confidence. My point of this section was really to hit on team composition and quality of play. You are using this Salamence on the low ladder with suboptimal teams vs less than stellar opponents trying to use the games as examples for the rest of the meta to follow, which just does not work. Most of your threat list is eliminated by the superior Z-Fly Mence + Magnezone (a better core to base a team around). However, you instead decided upon an inferior M-Latios with M-Sceptile support. Honestly after watching the first replay your nomination died in my eyes. Before you rush to a nomination you need to make sure the set/team you're using is solid - and that it works vs high level competition otherwise it is just a waste of time.

In the end I feel any competent Salamence nomination will focus on the Z-Fly set, and not some LO Mixed Mence that has no business being run in the OU tier. I also feel any sort of Salamence nomination will pit

vs.

in a battle of aging pseudo legends. On one hand you have Mence with more of a snowball factor thanks to Moxie and a higher base speed, and on the other hand you have Dnite with more bulk thanks to Multiscale and better coverage. I feel Dragonite is the better option as the increased bulk gives you a a better chance to set up a pair of Dragon Dances, but would have been open to hearing an argument on the rise of slower scarfers like Lando-t who potentially give Mence a better chance in the meta as mons that out speed Mence at +1 like Scarf Latios and Keldeo have dropped off greatly. Yet the mark was missed, and even then that argument is fairly shaky and not truly worth a rise to being ranked. With this I'll end my over extended rant, and simply say Do Not Rank Salamence.

Edit: The nom below is much better, appreciate the effort of making a nomination with some substance.

 

[astroshagger]

I am nominating Salamence to C-.

I believe Salamence is viable in OU for the following reasons:

1. It possess the raw power necessary to break through many of the tier's bulky staples with minimal support. For this reason, it functions as potent win-con on HO and Balanced-Offensive builds due to its combination of Moxie and Z-Fly.
2. The state of the game is favorable for Salamence due to the popularity of lower speed-tier scarfers. This means it is less easily revenge killed and more capable of sweeping.

This the set I am nominating:

Salamence @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Fly
- Earthquake
- Substitute/Dragon Claw

Set Explanation:

This is pretty much the standard Z-Fly set. Moxie allows it to snowball out of control, and Z-Fly = SSSS = a massive nuke which gets the ball rolling. EQ is obviously for steels and nuetral coverage against a lot of things when you don't want to blow your load with SSSS or risk a 2-turn standard Fly. IMO, Substitute is the best option in the last slot because it allows Salamence to circumvent one of its primary weaknesses and common counter-play tactics: status, and because it alleviates the inherent risk involved in using standard Fly. Substitute blocks Will-o-Wisp, Toxic, Leech Seed, T-Wave, etc. which are very common initial moves by the opponent to stop or hamper your sweep attempt. Setting up a Sub when the opponent thinks he can status you is important because it grants you a free turn to Dragon Dance and another turn to secure a kill, thus initiating Moxie. It also takes away some of the risk in using standard Fly; the sub can keep you in and allow you to attack again on the next turn instead of getting forced out. In cases where Zapdos/Rotom pose too much of a problem, Dragon Claw is an acceptable option.

Nomination:

Salamence has had a strange history in the game. Once the absolute king of OU, it fell into obscurity in Gen 6, briefly resurged in Gen 7, and is now unranked. The rise of super fast scarfers (Latios, Gren) and the drop of slower scarfers (Lele) meant that it had a difficult time sweeping even at +1. However, the game has changed since then and things like Scarf Latios/Latias are not as common. Salamence has the capability to punch holes in standard teams without too much difficulty but now also has the added luxury of being fast enough at +1 to do its job. Of course that's not to say there aren't stops for it; Scarf Greninja is still quite popular. Another factor I'd like to address is its obvious competition: Dragonite. Z-Fly Gyarados will NOT be compared here as it simply functions more effectively. Gyara should be and IS ranked higher than Dragonite and Salamence, and is thus not a valid comparison in this nomination. I've noticed that people don't play Salamence as efficiently as they could. I notice that a lot of people try to play it like a Dragonite clone, and as a result, they set-up too early when certain threats have not been eliminated or when the opponents defensive core hasn't been chipped enough. Yes, Dragonite and Salamence possess nearly identical purposes: DD and sweep. However, they do not possess exactly identical play styles or conditional requirements. Dragonite has the benefit of added bulk + Multiscale which affords it more opportunities to set-up. However, Dragonite doesn't have the same potential to snowball exponentially like Salamence does with Moxie. In return for less set-up opportunities and bulk, Salamence gets more damage and speed at its disposal. While Dragonite hits offers a more reliable upfront benefit, it hits a ceiling quickly that Salamence is able to break through. It simply requires the user to bring it in at the CORRECT time against the CORRECT pokemon and patience.

Here is a replay.

Explanation of replay

Explanation of replay:

This replay highlights my previous statement that Salamence can run through a team once the opponent's opposing defensive core has been weakened. I took time to use Gyara to take Celesteela out and weaken Pex so that it was in OHKO range from Mence's +1 EQ:

+1 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 232-274 (76.5 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 180-212 (59.4 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Noticing that Lando-T was scarfed (and thus able to be out-sped and OHKO'd by SSSS at +0 after intimidate) I bring in Salamence and end the game after 1 DD. As a player all I had to do was simply bring it in at the correct time. If I had been using Z-Fly Dragonite, Scarf Lando would have out-sped me and likely put me in KO range for Lucha. I believe this replay highlights an important niche that Salamence creates for itself from Dragonite.

Here is another replay.

Explanation of replay

Explanation of replay:

Here is another match against a team utilizing common OU bulky staples: Magic Guard Clef, Lando-T, and Toxapex. Even after the freeze-hax and sub-optimal start, I use Kart to weaken the opponent's team. Knowing very well he's going to attempt a Maggy trap, I purposely put myself in a position such that I can bring Salamence on a choice locked HP Fire. After 1 DD I know that Mence is very likely to OHKO Magic Guard Clef (the most popular set):

+1 252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 387-456 (98.2 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

As a result, Moxie kicks off and it's quickly over from there. Had I not KO'd Clef, I still would have been able to kill it next turn as:

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 236-282 (71.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Again, I think this replay highlights that Mence is more than capable as a win-con.

Here is another replay.

Explanation of replay

Explanation of replay:

This is just Salamence running train on an HO webs team (a mirror match of sorts). Because... why not.

Here is another replay.

Explanation of replay

Explanation of replay:

This isn't the highest ranked match in the world I know, but I still think it was a good game. In this match I overcame a textbook defensive block to Salamence: Ferrothorn + Lando T. I spend the bulk of the game whittling down Lando-T to ~ 60% and Ferro to at least 75%, knowing full well that at this point he won't be able to stop Mence:

+1 252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 336-396 (95.4 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Salamence Fly vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 172-204 (48.8 - 57.9%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (You don't always have to use Z-move to get a kill if something is whittled down enough)
+1 252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 262-309 (74.4 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 229-271 (59.9 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Some other (possibly) relevant calcs, some may be redundant:

Calcs

+1 252 Atk Salamence Fly vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Gastrodon: 307-363 (72.2 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Gastrodon: 597-703 (140.4 - 165.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Landorus-Therian: 252-297 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 319-376 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Landorus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 220-260 (66.4 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 387-456 (98.2 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 236-282 (71.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 232-274 (76.5 - 90.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

+1 252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 336-396 (95.4 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 336-396 (95.4 - 112.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 298-352 (99 - 116.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 298-352 (82 - 96.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 388-457 (113.1 - 133.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 384-454 (136.6 - 161.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 256-304 (77.3 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 249-294 (65 - 76.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 252-300 (76.1 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now, I know what you're thinking: you can't use SSSS on everyone of these pokes in a single game. Correct, but with Moxie you only need one kill to put yourself at enough attack that the Z-move is no longer necessary.

Conclusion:

I believe that my replays and calcs demonstrate that Salamence is a powerful win-con against many common OU builds. Additionally, I believe I've demonstrated that Salamence has a specific niche and benefits to it as opposed to Dragonite. Since Salamence and Dragonite are in the same realm of viability and since they serve a similar purpose on teams, we are forced to conclude that Salamence is viable in OU. Salamence obviously has its flaws: a now sub-optimal base 100 spe, low defenses, walled by certain and common steels, revenged by fast scarfers, less available set-up opportunities than things like Gyara and Zygarde, etc. But I'm only making the argument that it's JUST viable. Nothing more. Anyway, I know my replays and logic may not get through the fucking smogon overlord mods unscathed. I work 70 hrs. a week and admittedly don't spend all my free time hyperanalyzing the Pokemon USUM metagame like a data wizard. I'm sure there are points I've missed, trends I've forgotten... BUT..... I think Salamence is viable in OU. Try it out and legitimately try to use it successfully and you may be surprised.

TPP Edit: Please use the hide button when posting a lot of calcs.

 

[ajaymt]

Garchomp B -> B+
With the drop of Kyurem-Black, Tapu Lele and Skarmory, Garchomp has a decreased chance of meeting some of its deadliest checks and counters and performs as the best Offensive Stealth Rocker in the meta, which can be reflected through a 1% percent increase in its usage rate. Swords Dance allows Garchomp to break through some of its other check and counters.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 374-441 (94.9 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
With Clefable being more relevant, Life Orb is certainly a good choice for Garchomp to OHKO this pink monster.

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Gastrodon: 442-522 (104 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Garchomp can easily OHKO Gastrodon after a SD boost regardless of the item it brings.

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 237-279 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 373-441 (124.7 - 147.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Outrage is capable of defeating Tornadus-T that tries to switch in and Defog the Stealth Rock on its field, while Dragonium-Z allows Garchomp to OHKO it if it tries to switch in when Garchomp uses rocks.

+1 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 357-421 (107.8 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
SD Garchomp will not become a set up bait for Gyarados as the latter does not check the former.

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 399-469 (95 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
Even the bulkiest Hippowdon variants cannot survive Dragonium-Z most of the time, and most Hippowdon sets does not fully invest in physical bulk anyways.

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Reuniclus: 559-658 (131.8 - 155.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
While not very relevant in battles, Garchomp is also capable of OHKOing Reuniclus.

Overall, the recent changes has greatly increased utility of Garchomp in many offensive teams, thus it should deserve a shift in rating.

Garchomp B -> B+: Agree

In addition to the offensive stealth rock set, I believe the SD + 3 attacks set and Rocky Helmet Tank set warrant a raise. Here are the sets I'm referring to:

Garchomp @ Dragonium Z / Groundium Z / Firium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Fire Fang
- Outrage / Dragon Claw
- Earthquake

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
- Fire Blast

Set 1: SD + 3 attacks
The SD + 3 attacks set has benefited greatly from the rise of Ferro/Heatran/Pex balance teams, which it performs exceptionally well against. Garchomp's unresisted coverage and great speed tier mean that it can outspeed and OHKO/2HKO everything on these teams at +2, and it gets free switch-in and set up opportunities against bulky steels like Ferro and Heatran. Here are some replays of Garchomp against slower, fatter teams as well as more offensive ones:

Replays

https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-05-18-assgrabbin-scoregiver.html (6-0s a fat sand balance team)
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-05-01-thfhtvhvhvh-ajaymt.html (breaks through multiple fat mons on stall)
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-05-04-ajaymt-thfhtvhvhvh.html (breaks through pyukumuku stall)
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-16-assgrabbin-frisoeva.html (vs heatran/pex/clef balance)
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-05-01-adel19-assgrabbin.html (vs offense)
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-16-assgrabbin-tugfatestea.html (vs offense)
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-13-assgrabbin-sstj.html
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-15-assgrabbin-d0ublej.html
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-23-harrisonharry-assgrabbin.html

In addition to being a fantastic balance breaker, Garchomp is able to provide invaluable support to fast special attackers like ash-gren and tapu koko. It lures in and eliminates Tapu Bulu and Tangrowth, and threatens Ferrothorn, Toxapex, AV Magearna, and Chansey. Here are some replays of Garchomp breaking down special walls to assist ash-greninja:

Replays

https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-17-federalteachings-assgrabbin.html
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-16-assgrabbin-giotsagk (1).html
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-16-assgrabbin-mmm6.html
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-16-lydo360-assgrabbin.html

I believe SD + 3 attacks Garchomp has a well defined niche over offensive Landorus-T because:

1. It has strong fire type coverage, which means that it doesn't need a Z-move to break through Tapu Bulu, Celesteela/Skarmory and other fat grasses. It also poses and immediate threat to M-Scizor and Kartana.
2. Its superior speed tier means it isn't forced out by nearly as many offensive pokemon, and it generally performs better against offense. Off the top of my head, some of the notable threats that sit between Garchomp and Landorus's speed tiers are: Tapu Lele, Kyurem-B, Volcarona, M-Medicham, Timid Zapdos, Zygarde, Charizard (X and Y).
3. A resistance to fire and neutrality to water grant it more opportunities to switch in against balance teams. It is one of the few consistent Heatran switch-ins, and it can switch into pex (at the risk of a scald burn) if need be. It checks most variants of CM Stored Power M-Latias as long as it is kept reasonably healthy and Latias doesn't have too many boosts.

Set 2: Rocky Helmet Tank
Rocky Helmet Garchomp is an ORAS staple that fell off in early SM because it was completely outclassed by Lando-T. However, recent meta trands have, in my opinion, made this set relevant and effective again:

1. It's one of the few stealth rockers that can consistently switch into and beat the increasingly common Heatran.
2. Unlike Lando-T, it's able to stop setup mons like M-Scizor, Kartana and SpDef Zygarde thanks to its access to Fire type coverage and its ability to phaze. If kept healthy enough, it can even phaze a +2 Hawlucha.
3. The passive damage it deals is exceptionally useful for setup sweepers like M-Scizor and breakers like Tapu Lele and Ash-Gren. Garchomp's presence alone can deter opponents from simply spamming U-turn.

This Garchomp set serves as a solid physically defensive tank on bulky offense teams, and it compresses roles very effectively.

Replays

https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-29-ajaymt-alexanderiz1993.html (Garchomp is able to weaken M-Scizor and eliminate Tapu Bulu)
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-29-expiredlobster-ajaymt.html (Garchomp shuts down veil offense once Ninetales is removed)
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-03-28-assgrabbin-ouladderclimb.html (Garchomp stops M-Scizor)

Conclusion
In my opinion, Garchomp is closer in viability to mons like Gyarados, Keldeo, M-Lopunny and Rotom-W than the mons in B: it needs some support to break through specific defensive pokemon, but it's able to perform its role effectively in nearly every matchup. It's a great partner for mons like Ash-gren, tapu koko and M-scizor, since it's able to break through their most common defensive checks and complements them defensively thanks to its great typing and natural bulk. I find it to be far more viable than mons like Excadrill and Alomomola: it isn't nearly as predictable or one-dimensional as either of them, and it fits on a much wider variety of teams. Everybody seems to have forgotten that this mon can actually do some things better than Lando-T and Zygarde -- it's a better balance breaker and has a better speed tier, and these two traits give it a niche of its own.

 

[baddjordan]

I would like to nominate Porygon2 for C Rank. A good blanket counter or check to many top threats. Has competition with Chansey but has better physical bulk to take on many threats Chansey can't (Lando, Gyara, Zygarde and more).

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Discharge
- Ice Beam
- Recover

Here is a replay of P2 pretty much soloing a HO team despite missing two toxics.
Here is P2 taking a +1 SSSS and OHKOing back

Takes on a huge chunk of the top tier threats

List

CM Lati
Gliscor
Scarf Kartana (SS does 39-45.5)
Scarf Lele
Zygarde (about 10 of its sets bar toxic)
Volcarona
Zapdos
Lando
Heatran (loses to toxic but does next to no short term damage, never trapped)
Ash Gren (unless evolved Hydro, evolved Dark Pulse is 3HKO)
AV Magerna
Tapu Koko
AV Bulu (SP does 42-49)
Subzero Kyrem B (never 2hkos with the subzero+fusion bolt)
Gyarados
M-Swampert in rain (unless flinch)
Zard Y
M-Diancie

Main concern is Clef comes in and freely passes wishes, which is a concern for the entire meta anyway right now. P2 can still disrupt it with Discharge. Cripples many threats so its not as passive as you'd think.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

Garchomp B -> B+: Agree

In addition to the offensive stealth rock set, I believe the SD + 3 attacks set and Rocky Helmet Tank set warrant a raise. Here are the sets I'm referring to:

Garchomp @ Dragonium Z / Groundium Z / Firium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Fire Fang
- Outrage / Dragon Claw
- Earthquake

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
- Fire Blast

Set 1: SD + 3 attacks
The SD + 3 attacks set has benefited greatly from the rise of Ferro/Heatran/Pex balance teams, which it performs exceptionally well against. Garchomp's unresisted coverage and great speed tier mean that it can outspeed and OHKO/2HKO everything on these teams at +2, and it gets free switch-in and set up opportunities against bulky steels like Ferro and Heatran. Here are some replays of Garchomp against slower, fatter teams as well as more offensive ones:

Replays

https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-05-18-assgrabbin-scoregiver.html (6-0s a fat sand balance team)
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-05-01-thfhtvhvhvh-ajaymt.html (breaks through multiple fat mons on stall)
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-05-04-ajaymt-thfhtvhvhvh.html (breaks through pyukumuku stall)
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-16-assgrabbin-frisoeva.html (vs heatran/pex/clef balance)
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-05-01-adel19-assgrabbin.html (vs offense)
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-16-assgrabbin-tugfatestea.html (vs offense)
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-13-assgrabbin-sstj.html
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-15-assgrabbin-d0ublej.html
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-23-harrisonharry-assgrabbin.html

In addition to being a fantastic balance breaker, Garchomp is able to provide invaluable support to fast special attackers like ash-gren and tapu koko. It lures in and eliminates Tapu Bulu and Tangrowth, and threatens Ferrothorn, Toxapex, AV Magearna, and Chansey. Here are some replays of Garchomp breaking down special walls to assist ash-greninja:

Replays

https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-17-federalteachings-assgrabbin.html
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-16-assgrabbin-giotsagk (1).html
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-16-assgrabbin-mmm6.html
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-16-lydo360-assgrabbin.html

I believe SD + 3 attacks Garchomp has a well defined niche over offensive Landorus-T because:

1. It has strong fire type coverage, which means that it doesn't need a Z-move to break through Tapu Bulu, Celesteela/Skarmory and other fat grasses. It also poses and immediate threat to M-Scizor and Kartana.
2. Its superior speed tier means it isn't forced out by nearly as many offensive pokemon, and it generally performs better against offense. Off the top of my head, some of the notable threats that sit between Garchomp and Landorus's speed tiers are: Tapu Lele, Kyurem-B, Volcarona, M-Medicham, Timid Zapdos, Zygarde, Charizard (X and Y).
3. A resistance to fire and neutrality to water grant it more opportunities to switch in against balance teams. It is one of the few consistent Heatran switch-ins, and it can switch into pex (at the risk of a scald burn) if need be. It checks most variants of CM Stored Power M-Latias as long as it is kept reasonably healthy and Latias doesn't have too many boosts.

Set 2: Rocky Helmet Tank
Rocky Helmet Garchomp is an ORAS staple that fell off in early SM because it was completely outclassed by Lando-T. However, recent meta trands have, in my opinion, made this set relevant and effective again:

1. It's one of the few stealth rockers that can consistently switch into and beat the increasingly common Heatran.
2. Unlike Lando-T, it's able to stop setup mons like M-Scizor, Kartana and SpDef Zygarde thanks to its access to Fire type coverage and its ability to phaze. If kept healthy enough, it can even phaze a +2 Hawlucha.
3. The passive damage it deals is exceptionally useful for setup sweepers like M-Scizor and breakers like Tapu Lele and Ash-Gren. Garchomp's presence alone can deter opponents from simply spamming U-turn.

This Garchomp set serves as a solid physically defensive tank on bulky offense teams, and it compresses roles very effectively.

Replays

https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-29-ajaymt-alexanderiz1993.html (Garchomp is able to weaken M-Scizor and eliminate Tapu Bulu)
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-04-29-expiredlobster-ajaymt.html (Garchomp shuts down veil offense once Ninetales is removed)
https://ajaymt.github.io/ps-replays/Gen7OU-2018-03-28-assgrabbin-ouladderclimb.html (Garchomp stops M-Scizor)

Conclusion
In my opinion, Garchomp is closer in viability to mons like Gyarados, Keldeo, M-Lopunny and Rotom-W than the mons in B: it needs some support to break through specific defensive pokemon, but it's able to perform its role effectively in nearly every matchup. It's a great partner for mons like Ash-gren, tapu koko and M-scizor, since it's able to break through their most common defensive checks and complements them defensively thanks to its great typing and natural bulk. I find it to be far more viable than mons like Excadrill and Alomomola: it isn't nearly as predictable or one-dimensional as either of them, and it fits on a much wider variety of teams. Everybody seems to have forgotten that this mon can actually do some things better than Lando-T and Zygarde -- it's a better balance breaker and has a better speed tier, and these two traits give it a niche of its own.

I have to disagree for many many reasons.
First being the three attack SD set is just outclassed by Z move lando who also breaks all those mons and can get up rocks or actually pose as a lure to all the mons you claim Garchomp lures. Also the "strong fire type coverage" in fire fang can't really do much to pokemon like skarm or steela, I could also mention how pokemon like shuca koko is a very important pokemon rn that eats SD Garchomp for lunch, also, in what way is tank chomp a threat to Kartana?
+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 546-643 (130 - 153%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 364-429 (86.6 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Considering just how hard it is to actually use Tankchomp and keep it healthy throughout the match, it's not that good of a point.

You could mention how wish clef helps out tankchomp, and then you realise that there is much better partners for Wishfable and that at this point you are building around a pokemon you were supposed to be using an argument for as role compression.

Why is Garchomp ranked in the first place? Because of what you just mentioned, in that it has a decent matchup against tran, doesn't always need a Z move and so on.

Garchomp is rather bad because No matter what it wants to do it gets outclassed by something else, being lando, Zygarde or even Gliscor and Hippowdown. I honestly see very few situations where I would want to put Garchomp on my team. B is the absolute max it should be in the Viability rankings as it's niche is not just good enough to have it ranked higher, that being said. Excadrill and Almolamola are much better pokemon imo, Almolamola being one of the best wish passers in the tier next to that of fable and being a bulky water to go alongside it and Excadrill being great on Sand teams and being a great suicide lead with a rather decent matchup against stall due to being able to Toxic Msable.

Those pokemon have a valued niche, while garchomp is just a mix match of traits that put him in B. I do not see Tangrowth,Keldeo,Rotom-W and others in B+ even close to garchomp.

So in short.
Tapu Bulu and Tangrowth, and threatens Ferrothorn, Toxapex, AV Magearna, and Chansey. Are all beaten by Z move Lando and Z move lando is much better and can also fit rocks on his set.

It's one of the few stealth rockers that can consistently switch into and beat the increasingly common Heatran. But that being said It's still only a few and it can't even really switch in and always get rocks up cause of taunt or it could be toxiced which makes tankchomp worthless.

It cannot be a reliable check to Kartana and Hippowdon Manages to Beat the other pokemon you mentioned.

As for Point 3, The same can be said by putting Rocky Helm on anything tbh, Put it on ferro, Hippowdon. Tankchomp still does lack recovery and most scarfers with U-turn can beat it anyways (EG: Lando,Greninja). Sure M Scizor can't beat it, but It can just roost the damage of later.

Garchomp does have niches, but those niches should not make it move up, those niches are just keeping it in B by a thread.

 

[Felixx]

I would like to nominate Porygon2 for C Rank. A good blanket counter or check to many top threats. Has competition with Chansey but has better physical bulk to take on many threats Chansey can't (Lando, Gyara, Zygarde and more).

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Discharge
- Ice Beam
- Recover

Here is a replay of P2 pretty much soloing a HO team despite missing two toxics.
Here is P2 taking a +1 SSSS and OHKOing back

Takes on a huge chunk of the top tier threats

List

CM Lati
Gliscor
Scarf Kartana (SS does 39-45.5)
Scarf Lele
Zygarde (about 10 of its sets bar toxic)
Volcarona
Zapdos
Lando
Heatran (loses to toxic but does next to no short term damage, never trapped)
Ash Gren (unless evolved Hydro, evolved Dark Pulse is 3HKO)
AV Magerna
Tapu Koko
AV Bulu (SP does 42-49)
Subzero Kyrem B (never 2hkos with the subzero+fusion bolt)
Gyarados
M-Swampert in rain (unless flinch)
Zard Y
M-Diancie

Main concern is Clef comes in and freely passes wishes, which is a concern for the entire meta anyway right now. P2 can still disrupt it with Discharge. Cripples many threats so its not as passive as you'd think.

Scarf Kartana (SS does 39-45.5)
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 158-188 (42.2 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
- Also Scarf Kart runs Knock Off
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Porygon2: 238-282 (63.6 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

AV Bulu (SP does 42-49)
60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Superpower vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 158-186 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Grassy Terrain: 177-208 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
- Nature's Madness + Wood Hammer never kills with grassy terrain but it will with rocks up

Just to clarify, if Heatran switches into Pory2, then it dosen't Trace Flash Fire, so Tran can Magma trap and Taunt Pory2 to prevent it from recovering. Now if Pory2 switches into Heatran, it Traces Flash Fire, and therefor cannot be trapped, although it does jack shit back to Tran anyways.

Anyways, Pory2 is pretty interesting actually, it can check a lot of different mons as you've stated before, but its vulnerable to Knock Off, (Torn, M-Mawile, Clef, Ferro, Kart, M-Sciz, Tang, and sometimes Lando) and loses to other breakers such M-Medi, M-Mawile, SD M-Sciz, Hawlucha, Hoopa-U, Ttar, Specs Koko and Specs Lele, and is extremely annoyed by fat mons such Clef, Ferro, Pex, and Reuni. Using Pory2 is practically "Match-up Fishing", as blunder would call it, it can definitely do work, but although it checks a lot, it also loses to a lot, addtionally you'll need good hazard control to keep it out of range of attacks, and is useless in a stall match-up. I'm not against ranking it however.

 

[baddjordan]

Scarf Kartana (SS does 39-45.5)
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 158-188 (42.2 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
- Also Scarf Kart runs Knock Off
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Porygon2: 238-282 (63.6 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

AV Bulu (SP does 42-49)
60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Superpower vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 158-186 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Grassy Terrain: 177-208 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
- Nature's Madness + Wood Hammer never kills with grassy terrain but it will with rocks up

Just to clarify, if Heatran switches into Pory2, then it dosen't Trace Flash Fire, so Tran can Magma trap and Taunt Pory2 to prevent it from recovering. Now if Pory2 switches into Heatran, it Traces Flash Fire, and therefor cannot be trapped, although it does jack shit back to Tran anyways.

Anyways, Pory2 is pretty interesting actually, it can check a lot of different mons as you've stated before, but its vulnerable to Knock Off, (Torn, M-Mawile, Clef, Ferro, Kart, M-Sciz, Tang, and sometimes Lando) and loses to other breakers such M-Medi, M-Mawile, SD M-Sciz, Hawlucha, Hoopa-U, Ttar, Specs Koko and Specs Lele, and is extremely annoyed by fat mons such Clef, Ferro, Pex, and Reuni. Using Pory2 is practically "Match-up Fishing", as blunder would call it, it can definitely do work, but although it checks a lot, it also loses to a lot, addtionally you'll need good hazard control to keep it out of range of attacks, and is useless in a stall match-up. I'm not against ranking it however.

My bad on that Cal.

Yeah for sure a bit match up dependent, Stall is the main problem. Have to pair it with something like CM Lele.

It doesn't take on Specs Lele, Mawile or Medi but next to nothing in this game does.

Hazards of course a problem.

For a Pokemon to not make this list it must be completely not viable, and I don't think thats the case for a Pokemon who can deal a combination of a highly used threats that another Pokemon can't do.

 

[QY_CS]

I have to disagree for many many reasons.
First being the three attack SD set is just outclassed by Z move lando who also breaks all those mons and can get up rocks or actually pose as a lure to all the mons you claim Garchomp lures. Also the "strong fire type coverage" in fire fang can't really do much to pokemon like skarm or steela, I could also mention how pokemon like shuca koko is a very important pokemon rn that eats SD Garchomp for lunch, also, in what way is tank chomp a threat to Kartana?
+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 546-643 (130 - 153%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 364-429 (86.6 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Considering just how hard it is to actually use Tankchomp and keep it healthy throughout the match, it's not that good of a point.

You could mention how wish clef helps out tankchomp, and then you realise that there is much better partners for Wishfable and that at this point you are building around a pokemon you were supposed to be using an argument for as role compression.

Why is Garchomp ranked in the first place? Because of what you just mentioned, in that it has a decent matchup against tran, doesn't always need a Z move and so on.

Garchomp is rather bad because No matter what it wants to do it gets outclassed by something else, being lando, Zygarde or even Gliscor and Hippowdown. I honestly see very few situations where I would want to put Garchomp on my team. B is the absolute max it should be in the Viability rankings as it's niche is not just good enough to have it ranked higher, that being said. Excadrill and Almolamola are much better pokemon imo, Almolamola being one of the best wish passers in the tier next to that of fable and being a bulky water to go alongside it and Excadrill being great on Sand teams and being a great suicide lead with a rather decent matchup against stall due to being able to Toxic Msable.

Those pokemon have a valued niche, while garchomp is just a mix match of traits that put him in B. I do not see Tangrowth,Keldeo,Rotom-W and others in B+ even close to garchomp.

So in short.
Tapu Bulu and Tangrowth, and threatens Ferrothorn, Toxapex, AV Magearna, and Chansey. Are all beaten by Z move Lando and Z move lando is much better and can also fit rocks on his set.

It's one of the few stealth rockers that can consistently switch into and beat the increasingly common Heatran. But that being said It's still only a few and it can't even really switch in and always get rocks up cause of taunt or it could be toxiced which makes tankchomp worthless.

It cannot be a reliable check to Kartana and Hippowdon Manages to Beat the other pokemon you mentioned.

As for Point 3, The same can be said by putting Rocky Helm on anything tbh, Put it on ferro, Hippowdon. Tankchomp still does lack recovery and most scarfers with U-turn can beat it anyways (EG: Lando,Greninja). Sure M Scizor can't beat it, but It can just roost the damage of later.

Garchomp does have niches, but those niches should not make it move up, those niches are just keeping it in B by a thread.

I have to disagree with these claims.
First of all, Landorus-t cannot outclass offensive Garchomp at all, due to it failing to outspeed base 95 and 100s, namely Medicham-Mega, Tapu Lele, Kyurem-B, Zapdos, and Victini which are all relevant Pokemons which can not only easily force offensive landorus-t out, but also have limited number of switchins and will cost you heavily when trying to take these hits. Zygarde cannot outclass Garchomp either, as it mostly lacks either immediate power, speed, or both depending on the set. Garchomp's fire type coverage is also superior to Landorus's Flying type move, as SSSS is a one time move that can be switched in by other pokemon (either sacking a pokemon or blocking it) and then switch back to grass pokemon to wall the rest, assuming something in the team can take standard fly. This can happen often in higher ladder and tournament games, while in lower ladder it will be hard to see. However, Fire Fang is an immediate attack which is much more threatening to defensive grass types. Defensively, I agree with Garchomp generally being worse than other bulky ground types without an appropriate team, as Garchomp's main niche is its unique resistance, and its abilities to deal massive amounts of residual damage via rough skin, rocky helmet, stealth rock, and dragon tail, which again is more useful in higher ladder and tournaments games, as in lower ladder its often more straight forward attacks.
In general, Garchomp is a pokemon that needs relatively decent skills to utilize, making it outclassed by landorus-t in lower ladder games. However, it certainly deserves a better ranking considering its potential in other situations.

 

[MFJK]

S- → A+

This nomination might seem a bit controversial and might maybe start some shit so sorry in advance if it does. The reason why I believed that Kartana should drop from a subrank is because I think it is no longer how effective nor how threatening as it used to be some time ago. The reason why it rose originally was because of how centralizing and metagame-defining this mon was, with both of its sets being really splashable and having really few answers, and while Kartana is still a very threatening pokemon, I don't think it deserves to be S- anymore. I think the metagame has very well adapted to it with things like Tornadus-T, M-Lati@s, M-Scizor and Zapdos rising in usage, Kartana is gonna struggle a lot more in breaking through most teams. Grass Spam teams with Bulu + Kart are no longer as common with Ferrothorn and Gastrodon being the main choices as electric resists. I believe Heatran and potentially Zygarde and Clefable should be the only S- rank as they truly define the metagame at the moment.

Of course, feel free to disagree with this nomination since I have been out of the meta for some time and am making this nomination only through my recent observations. My arguments may not be the best either.

 

[robopoke]

S- → A+

This nomination might seem a bit controversial and might maybe start some shit so sorry in advance if it does. The reason why I believed that Kartana should drop from a subrank is because I think it is no longer how effective nor how threatening as it used to be some time ago. The reason why it rose originally was because of how centralizing and metagame-defining this mon was, with both of its sets being really splashable and having really few answers, and while Kartana is still a very threatening pokemon, I don't think it deserves to be S- anymore. I think the metagame has very well adapted to it with things like Tornadus-T, M-Lati@s, M-Scizor and Zapdos rising in usage, Kartana is gonna struggle a lot more in breaking through most teams. Grass Spam teams with Bulu + Kart are no longer as common with Ferrothorn and Gastrodon being the main choices as electric resists. I believe Heatran and potentially Zygarde and Clefable should be the only S- rank as they truly define the metagame at the moment.

Of course, feel free to disagree with this nomination since I have been out of the meta for some time and am making this nomination only through my recent observations. My arguments may not be the best either.

(This post is a compilation of current metagame trends which either favour Kartana or not. )

You are right. Tornt and Mega Latis are more common now but they are not a switch-in. They all get 2HKOed by Scarf Knock Off after Rocks. Mega Scizor and Zapdos have the same usage from ladderexperience so this should not be a factor. Torn-T is however a good pivot to scout which move Kartana locks itself into.

Scarf Kartana is the only relevant Scarfer, that outspeeds +2 Magearna while doing solid damage with Smart Strike. SG Magearna is enjoying a huge increase in popularity and usage again which is not a surprise. Numerous Veil and Screenteams use this mon and even some BOs.

Flamethrower Clef and Twave/HP Fire Ferrothorn are still relativly rare. Some Ferrothorns see the merit of using Gyro Ball in addition to Power Whip to kill a weakened Tornadus-T which is annoying for many teams and to not be setupbait for SD Bulus which is also getting a bit more common.

Skarmory these days is mostly only found on hard Stallteams and Celesteela does not enjoy getting Knocked Off.

Scarf Magnezone is getting more popular because it traps many annoying Steeltypes, including Kartana. While Sub, Z-Tailwind or other strats to boost Speed are possible, they are still quite rare. Ironically enough, Scarf Magnezone is also a great partner for Kartana to trap Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn to increase the likelihood of Scarf Leaf Blade sweep.

If I missed any trends, feel free to mention them. My knowledge is pretty fresh, had like 20games+ each day since last week 1700~1900. However, tournamentwise I cannot provide any information so maybe a tourplayer can add some info.

-> Keep Kartana S-

edit: also please stop starting with "this sounds controversial" or "i am gonna get [...] for this". If you have good arguments you have good arguments, if you dont u dont.

 

[david0895]

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Discharge
- Ice Beam
- Recover

Scarf Kartana (SS does 39-45.5)
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 158-188 (42.2 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
- Also Scarf Kart runs Knock Off
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Porygon2: 238-282 (63.6 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

AV Bulu (SP does 42-49)
60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Superpower vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 158-186 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Grassy Terrain: 177-208 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
- Nature's Madness + Wood Hammer never kills with grassy terrain but it will with rocks up

you forgot to add the bold nature

 

[Felixx]

you forgot to add the bold nature

that's my bad, the calcs were actually on point then, so never mind that point of my post

 

[Jordy]

Rises

→ S-
Clefable is definitely due to a rise, it has single-handedly made fat balances rise to the top once again. It's an omnipotent wall, being capable of walling key-Pokemon in the metagame like Zygarde, Mega Medicham, and Hawlucha. It's a very versatile Pokemon that excels at every role it can take on, such as a Stealth Rock setter, Calm Mind user, and Wish-passer. Honestly, I could keep going on but I think sedertz and Felixx explained it way better than I ever could.

→ S-
Zygarde is a borderline broken Pokemon and I honestly don't think its current ranking in A+ gives it the credibility it deserves. It's extremely versatile and has practically no hard counters. SubDD(toxic, mono tarrows), Weakness Policy, and SubGlare can beat many classic defensive answers to Zygarde's Choice Band and offensive DD sets, such as Tapu Bulu, Mega Scizor, Tangrowth, and Clefable, respectively. It's a huge boon on the teambuilding aspect, very versatile, and it's impossible to fully counter every set, which is why it should rise.

() → A
Mega Latios is an amazing Pokemon in general, and arguably the best Mega, bar Mega Scizor. Mega Latios is great on a wide variety of archetypes, from Balance to Offense, it can fit on pretty much any team except for Stall. Mega Latios is fairly unpredictable as it can run a myriad of coverage moves, like Ice Beam, Hidden Power Fire, Draco Meteor, and even Defog. With Pokemon like Tornadus-T, Clefable, and Heatran being as good as they are, Mega Latios really thrives in this meta and surely deserves to rise.

→ B
Amoonguss is pretty great right now, especially its Assault Vest set. This Pokemon has really found itself a solid place in the fat meta as it can wall a plethora of Pokemon, like Kartana, Clefable, Tapu Koko, and Tapu Bulu. 'Luring' Heatran is really great because it's a big threat to fat balances and considering how it's the 3rd best Pokemon in the metagame it really isn't a weird sighting to see one. It can also form a very potent Regenerator core with Tornadus-T because of their outstanding type synergy.

Drops

→ B
Mega Venusaur should drop because Amoonguss has Regenerator, which is a really good and a way better means of recovery than Synthesis. Also, the fact that mega slots are becoming almost mandatory again is really bad for it as it sees a lot of competition from other mega Pokemon like Mega Scizor, Mega Lati@s, and Mega Medicham. Pokemon like Tornadus-T and Mega Lati@s are super good right now and can easily threaten Mega Venusaur. It also suffers from moveslot syndrome because it wants to run Synthesis, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Earthquake, Hidden Power Fire, Knock Off, and Leech Seed, which it clearly cant fit onto 1 set. Another reason why Mega Venusaur should drop is because Amoonguss should rise to B, it isn't better than Amoonguss, its on par with it. Amoonguss also doesn't fit in with the rest of the B+ Pokemon.

→ C-
I honestly don't see what niche this mon has that actually makes it worth using. With the mega slot being so valuable right now I don't quite see why you'd run this over regular Garchomp. It's faster, about as strong (with life orb), and still breaks a lot of Pokemon, except for Stall, but quite frankly, there's better stallbreakers out there that do not waste your mega slot.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

S- → A+

This nomination might seem a bit controversial and might maybe start some shit so sorry in advance if it does. The reason why I believed that Kartana should drop from a subrank is because I think it is no longer how effective nor how threatening as it used to be some time ago. The reason why it rose originally was because of how centralizing and metagame-defining this mon was, with both of its sets being really splashable and having really few answers, and while Kartana is still a very threatening pokemon, I don't think it deserves to be S- anymore. I think the metagame has very well adapted to it with things like Tornadus-T, M-Lati@s, M-Scizor and Zapdos rising in usage, Kartana is gonna struggle a lot more in breaking through most teams. Grass Spam teams with Bulu + Kart are no longer as common with Ferrothorn and Gastrodon being the main choices as electric resists. I believe Heatran and potentially Zygarde and Clefable should be the only S- rank as they truly define the metagame at the moment.

Of course, feel free to disagree with this nomination since I have been out of the meta for some time and am making this nomination only through my recent observations. My arguments may not be the best either.

I completely disagree with this nomination. Kartana is a truly metagame defining threat that deserves to be ranked alongside Heatran.
For one, none of those mons you mentioned are reliable answers to Kartana. Zapdos does to +2 Bloom Doom after rocks or Grassy Terrain, Scizor dies to All Out Pummeling, Mega Lati@s die to Knock Off from Scarf and can easily be Pursuit Trapped by an ally Tyranitar. Tornadus lol dies to Bloom Doom after rocks.
Kartana in general packs so much utitly that makes it S- worthy. Both of its sets are very easy to fit on to teams. The Scarf set gives Offense a very useful defogger that can check Pokémon that threaten offense like Mega Swampert and Tapu Lele. It can also Defog on a variety of Pokémon like Ferrothorn, Clefable, and the rising Gastrodon. Knock Off allows it to wear down its checks like Magearna, Lando, and Celesteela very well. The Swords Dance set like I said is a nearly unwallable breaker that gives the same utility that the Scarf set has.
With the rise of Gastrodon and Clefable, along with nothing too negative changing in the meta for Kartana, I stand by Kartana staying S-.

 

[Srn]

→ C-
I honestly don't see what niche this mon has that actually makes it worth using. With the mega slot being so valuable right now I don't quite see why you'd run this over regular Garchomp. It's faster, about as strong (with life orb), and still breaks a lot of Pokemon, except for Stall, but quite frankly, there's better stallbreakers out there that do not waste your mega slot.

Man I really am on Mega Garchomp Jury duty arent I

1) I dont know why you think mega slot is all of a sudden so valuable. It's true that mega lati@s have gotten more viable in the metagame recently, but that's really it. Every other mega has basically stayed the same (for all the flaws you state mega venu having, it has really enjoyed the increase in clef/gastro usage). The mega slot is only slightly more valuable in balance/BO builds that can support mega lati@s and that aint all of em.


2) Because a mega slot is pretty expendable, why wouldn't you run a mega where you can? That's the only reason people run shit like mega latios over LO latios (if the mega slot was so valuable, we wouldn't see mega latios everywhere (i get that mega latias is a bit different)).

LO chomp is terribly outclassed by other better wallbreakers like SD lando-t, and honestly, its outclassed by mega garchomp too, because mega has more bulk and power, whereas the 102 speed tier just gets less and less impressive anyway. You can even run jolly and keep it un-mega if opponent is running smth like volc/tapu lele/mega medicham to keep your semi-useful speed tier and mega later when they're dead/you need the bulk more. Mega chomp is a good check to heatran and that's one of the few reasons to even use chomp nowadays, and LO chomp really can't do that half as consistently as mega can.

I see that you note there's better stallbreakers that do not waste your mega slot, but there is where I see the irony, because almost all of the notable stallbreakers in this tier use a Z-move, which is WAAAY more valuable than the mega slot. SD kartana, SD lando-t, CM/taunt tapu lele, NP hoopa, SD tapu bulu, Kyurem-Black, Heatran, Greninnja, and this is ignoring the weirder ones like CM Keldeo, double dance Mew, Taunt NM tapu koko, TG manaphy, etc etc.
There's no fucking way I could list out all of the unique and amazing wallbreakers that value the Z-move, and that's just the breakers. We haven't even hit mons like z-hurricane torn-t, sg magearna, flyinium z gyara/dnite/mence, etc etc.
By using up the comparatively less valuable mega slot to get a solid wallbreaker that
A) breaks well given the right support
B) is very bulky (more natural bulk than ferro) and can check hard to cover mons like heatran

Of all the z-move wallbreakers i listed, none of them except for keld and manaphy can really switch into tran, and the megas in the tier that can do it (latios, zam, gyara, ttar) require their own support too. And as far as Mega Garchomps support goes, after trying to build and test with it I found that cb ttar+mega garchomp actually form their own little wallbreaking core quite well. Cb ttar can pursuit any stray z-hurricane torns or scarf locked hp ice lando-t looking to revenge mchomp, and chomp in turn uses sand to pop things like unaware quag, every clef, pressure lando-t, celesteela, tapu fini etc so cb ttar doesn't have to spend too much time guessing the right move and coming in multiple times to break sufficiently (also relying on stone edge lul).

Obviously that's pretty specific, but thats why Mchomp is C and mega latios is A. My point is that it is a completely viable choice on par with pokemon like mega camerupt, alolan muk, thundy-t, nidoking, and mega gallade.

So TL;DR Mchomp is a totally viable wallbreaker that saves you the z-move (way more important than the mega slot it uses), solidly checks heatran, and pairs well with cb ttar.

Keep it ranked at C

i swear i'll get replays over the weekend or smth :]

 

[NG Spencer]

I disagree with a venusaur drop, for starters 4mss applies to when mons cant function without having more moves than they are able to run. Not having eq to hit heatran does not somehow impact mega venusaurs ability to wall the likes of koko, kart and ash gren. You pick which move the team needs, if ur running something like scarf zone or zapdos you can then drop hp fire and use another move as you already have a way to guard vs kartana for example and both of those mons are pretty good so ur not troubled by "having" to use them if you elect to drop hp fire. Synthesis recovery isn't amazing but its enough for venu to adequately wall the things its supposed to, also the fact that ttar and rain arent as prevelant make it easier to use and neither enjoy switching into venu. Megas like scizor, medi and lati are certainly good, but they are by no means mandatory and there are definitely good teams without a mega, soulwind brought multiple in ost. You mention how tornadus and mega latios can threaten venusaur (they threaten amoonguss too btw) but neither enjoy switching into a sludge bomb, especially if it poisons:

0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 109-130 (36.2 - 43.1%)
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 126-148 (42.1 - 49.4%)

This brings me to my next point, in regards to amoonguss its not particularly hard to switch into as its only really doing damage if its hitting a target supereffectively, even then it cant guarantee a 2hko on clef with sludge bomb just to illustrate its lack of power. The AV set isn't a good heatran lure anymore as you can easily tell that its not black sludge so you know not to carelessly throw in ur tran also the fact that with a bit of chip z magma kills it and its AV can be knocked off when you throw it into kart.

 

[Jordy]

2) Because a mega slot is pretty expendable, why wouldn't you run a mega where you can? That's the only reason people run shit like mega latios over LO latios (if the mega slot was so valuable, we wouldn't see mega latios everywhere (i get that mega latias is a bit different)).

No. That's the only reason people started running Mega Latios, back when Mega slots weren't of such value as they are now. Mega Latios is a lot better in this current meta and is worth the mega slot. I don't understand how you think that LO Latios is better than it because Mega Latios is one of the best megas, it has slightly better bulk, and doesn't wear itself down to get off strong hits.

I see that you note there's better stallbreakers that do not waste your mega slot, but there is where I see the irony, because almost all of the notable stallbreakers in this tier use a Z-move, which is WAAAY more valuable than the mega slot. SD kartana, SD lando-t, CM/taunt tapu lele, NP hoopa, SD tapu bulu, Kyurem-Black, Heatran, Greninnja, and this is ignoring the weirder ones like CM Keldeo, double dance Mew, Taunt NM tapu koko, TG manaphy, etc etc.

These are all actually good users of Z-Moves, yes they partially do run Z-Moves for stall, but they aren't deadweight if they're not matched against stall and can still significantly weaken a team.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

Time to make another nom:

↑ B+

Defensive Mew is still effective at doing what it did from the beginning: checking dangerous Pokemon like Medicham, Zygarde, Tapu Lele, Kartana, and Hawlucha, some of which can be rather hard for teams to switch into safely.

However, I want to highlight the set that I believe deserves some more usage:

Set

Mew @ Mewnium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Fire Blast / Aura Sphere
- Nasty Plot
- Rock Polish

Double Dance Mew is an underrated set atm for several reasons. When looking at metagame trends, Mew appreciates the rise in Clefable, Gastrodon, and Hippowdon. Usually, the aforementioned Pokemon wouldn't mind switching into defensive Mew; take Clef, for example. Defensive Mew can't do much versus Clef, but if it switches in on a NP, it now is in a seriously threatening situation where the best it could do is paralyze it if it carries twave (most people seem to be spamming double healing / rocks / mblast). After a single NP, Mew becomes a huge threat for defensive teams, especially considering that a lot of builds atm seem to be spamming Clef / Water- / Torn-T / Lando, or some sort of deviation, all of which Mew can take advantage of. With simply two slots, Mew can cover a vast majority of the metagame, and you can also customize it to fit your team (i.e. if you're weak to Heatran/TTar, you can run Aura Sphere, if you're weak to Steels, you can run FB).

Heatran also takes a huge chunk from GS, so it's not like it completely walls you if you're not running fighting coverage: +2 252 SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 239-282 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Due to Mew's good 100/100/100 bulk and useful defensive typing, it finds more opportunities to setup than you'd think (scarf Kartana only does 5% more to Mew than 152 HP / +1 Def Hawlucha, for comparison). Screens offense is another playstyle that's been picking up a bit of traction, and Mew is very hard to take down behind screens. Effectiveness shown in this SmogTour replay, where Mew cleanly 6-0's: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-377428

Lastly, when looking at SmogTour usage, Mew was used more frequently than: Weavile, Hoopa-U, Swampert, Venusaur, Rotom-W, and Gyarados, all ranked above it, and more than Gengar, Garchomp, Alomomola, and Victini, all in the same rank. The VR should reflect this.

Overall, 1) defensive utility in checking strong wallbreakers and 2) offensive presence with its double dance set, which can take advantage of Ferrothorn, Magearna, and Clefable (all extremely common mons atm) means that Mew should rise to B+.

 

[Srn]

No. That's the only reason people started running Mega Latios, back when Mega slots weren't of such value as they are now. Mega Latios is a lot better in this current meta and is worth the mega slot. I don't understand how you think that LO Latios is better than it because Mega Latios is one of the best megas, it has slightly better bulk, and doesn't wear itself down to get off strong hits.

Right, but there's a difference between the mega slot being as valuable as you think it is, and (mega) latios itself being good. The fact of the matter is that there honestly isn't much of a difference between LO latios and Mega latios , LO latios just has less bulk and doesn't take up a mega slot. People only use the mega slot on latios for the marginal increase in bulk, literally because they weren't going to use it anywhere else, because the mega slot is not valuable.

You just can't think that LO chomp and Mega chomp are comparable and then think that LO latios and Mega latios are so different. Gotta pick one bro.

These are all actually good users of Z-Moves, yes they partially do run Z-Moves for stall, but they aren't deadweight if they're not matched against stall and can still significantly weaken a team.

Are you trying to say that mega garchomp is deadweight if not matched against stall? Because its definitely not. It clearly has the bulk and power to soft check lots of shit on bulky offense (not some glass cannon like mega cham) and can pressure several mons on any slower styles like balance, and can significantly weaken a team given the right support...
just like everything else i listed.

As far as the italicized "actually good" part, just try using mega chomp, and with the right team you'll see that he does just fine. Nothing mindblowing, but thats why he's C and not A.

 

[QY_CS]

I would like to nominate Togekiss from UR -> B/B-
(Please see the First Edition at the end of the post if it looks like a bad nomination/joke)
Togekiss had always been a fantastic stallbreaker, only struggling because of the offensive meta OU was for a long time. However in this generation we can see that much of the passive pokemon such as Gastrodon, Reuniclus and Clefable has increased in viability, while offensively oriented pokemon and pokemon that functions well against offensive teams such as Tapu Lele, Lopunny-Mega and Kyurem-B drop in viability. This indicates the OU metagame transforming into a more balanced/defensive nature compared to earlier times, which is way more suitable for Togekiss to perform. Togekiss can take advantage of passive pokemon and easily set up a Nasty Plot, often forcing opponent to decide between losing a slower pokemon or have a faster pokemon take massive damage (as almost no pokemon faster than Togekiss can easily take a +2 Air Slash and threaten it at the same time). Togekiss can also carry Heal Bell, while not as significant before, now is a great help to teams in general to adapt to longer battles.

Calculations of Togekiss are not as important as it often utilize flinch as the main way to deal massive amounts of damage, but I will put some anyways. These calculations are using the standard stallbreaker Togekiss set:

Togekiss @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Roost

+2 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Scizor-Mega: 186-219 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scizor-Mega is greatly damaged by Air Slash, thus cannot switch into a healthy +2 SpA Togekiss as Bullet Punch cannot OHKO Togekiss. Due to this damage, a Scizor-Mega that took some prior damage fails to check healthy Togekiss as well.

+2 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 106-126 (34.9 - 41.5%) -- 77.7% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Togekiss can easily come into Toxapex as well as beat it most of the time. Once one Nasty Plot is set without being hazed (most Toxapex won't just spam Haze) Air Slash deals sufficient damage to arguably kill Toxapex. Even if it fails to kill Toxapex due to bad luck on flinching, you can always attempt to set up again or switch into another pokemon while opponent uses Haze.

+6 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 238-282 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Chansey is a set up fodder for Togekiss, and at +6 Togekiss has a great chance of killing Chansey without using too much of Air Slash's PP.

+2 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 174-205 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Togekiss can easily switch into Clefable while it uses Calm Mind, and can spend a turn using Nasty Plot while allowing opponent to use Calm Mind again. Even then Clefable will fail to 2HKO Togekiss and Togekiss will be able to beat Clefable 1 on 1.

Here are some replays of Togekiss taking down important pokemon / sweeping:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-752145515
In this replay, Toxapex is forced to stay in order to not let Togekiss grab a NP boost. I admit I played badly that game, but I believe this replay shows the pressure Togekiss can exert on enemy teams.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-752160180
This replay gives a much better view of the overall bulk Togekiss has and its ability to dismantle a team.

All above is only the power of one Togekiss set. Togekiss can also run Thunder Wave in different cases, helping itself do the speed control job while also supporting other teammates with it; Flamethrower hits especially hard after a NP to Steel type walls, clearing a path for sweepers to take down enemy teams; Defog can also be added, turning Togekiss into a more supportive set... The possibilities in an not as offensive metagame for Togekiss are infinite.

————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

I'm not sure if I can add some little complaints about previous VR list, so I'll add it here so it can be deleted if its inappropriate. Imo, Togekiss is nowhere near "unviable", at least for Sticky Webs teams of which the support allows it to beat the majority of pokemon originally below 426 Speed that gets affected by webs without even thinking what typing they have, and considering Pinsir-Mega takes the Mega spot Togekiss cannot be outclassed by anything, so I don't know really why Togekiss didn't have a ranking at first place.


————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
First Edition: I see people telling me about Togekiss shouldn't be boosted that quickly. For this I do agree, B/B- is the ranking I wish it to be at, but in reality when council vote for it they can say anything between UR and B (as seen in the previous change in VR list), and I believe that this way the council will be able to indicate the actual rank they think Togekiss is in.

 

[Jordy]

People only use the mega slot on latios for the marginal increase in bulk, literally because they weren't going to use it anywhere else, because the mega slot is not valuable.

Why would they use it anywhere else if it, in general, is very splashable and the best mega bar Mega Scizor and is practically never deadweight in any match.

You just can't think that LO chomp and Mega chomp are comparable and then think that LO latios and Mega latios are so different. Gotta pick one bro.

I never said LO Latios isn't comparable to Mega Latios, it definitely is, just like how LO Garchomp and Mega Garchomp are comparable.

As far as the italicized "actually good" part, just try using mega chomp, and with the right team you'll see that he does just fine. Nothing mindblowing, but thats why he's C and not A.

I did test it, for about 15 matches.

http://pokepast.es/35aaf4af1608d0fd

This is a team someone passed me, pretty cool balance built around Mega Garchomp. Idk who originally built this.

So in all honesty, Mega Garchomp didn't do as bad as I might have depicted it to be at first, but I still feel it's relatively underwhelming when compared to some other mons in C(c ranks in general needs a cleaning, though).

 

[robofiend]

Since this is being debated:

B+ -> B: Disagree

Venusaur's been slipping in viability for a long time, but I think it's settled into decent niche in the meta as of late. Kartana struggles against it, hitting it only with Smart Strike, Bulu struggles against it, Clefable and Gastrodon struggle against it (unless Clef runs CM), Tornadus-T gets poisoned on the switch, Zapdos and AV Magearna can't do significant damage against it, Ferrothorn and Scizor get hit hard by HP Fire, Giga Drain lets it check Greninja, Keldeo, and other water types (even after a boost), and Earthquake and Leech Seed are good defense against Heatran and CM Magearna. It boasts a good ability, good bulk, and partners really well with partners like Wish Clefable/Jirachi and SpDef Gliscor, who have compelling niches in the metagame. In short, it's defensive glue that boasts Toxic immunity, few 2x weaknesses, no 4x weaknesses, and a decent ability and movepool to be both offensively threatening and defensively solid.

The rise of Gastro/Torn-T/Clef is a big deal for Venusaur since all three don't like Sludge Bomb and Gastro/Clef let it into play safely pretty 100% of the time. It also has good synergy with Wish Clefable (who helps Venusaur's inability to deal with pretty much any Lucha/Zygarde set) and Wish Jirachi (who helps against Torn-T/Lele). I say keep it where it is.

 

[micahclay]

I have a few nominations to post - may post more later if I don't sound stupid if I feel so inclined.

Heatran: S- to S

Why:

The increased viability/ubiquity of Clefable, as well as the consistent presence of steels both help Heatran’s viability. Clef/Mag/Ferro/Kart/Celesteela/MSciz/Zone are all A-rank or above, and appear quite frequently. Heatran either hard checks or hard counters all of these. He can also trap and kill mons like Toxapex and Chansey. These factors, combined with the level of set versatility it contains, allows for Tran to be one of the two most meta-defining mons, along with Lando-T.

Clefable: A+ to S-

Why:

Others have made great points prior to mine. My summarized reasoning is that it offers excellent role compression, is the premier rocker in the tier, can act as a late game wincon, and is a staple of the oh-so-common fat balance teams.

Tornadus-T: A to A+

Why:

Torn is an excellent defogger, especially due to regenerator, and hits hard with z-hurricane. U-turn and knock off make for excellent utility and help preserve momentum. It’s a great “glue” mon, and it does that job really, really well. I also think it needs much less support than the other A mons, and has less glaring weaknesses than they do. It’s pretty self-sufficient, like all the A+ mons.

Zapdos: A- to A

Why:

It functions as a steel & KokoLucha check, and is a great defogger. It’s not versatile, but it does its one job pretty darn well.

Amoonguss: B- to B

Why:

Role compression is the name of the game. Clef counter, Kartana check, helps with the more common Gastrodon, as well as two of the Tapu (Koko and Bulu).

Azumarill: C+ to B-

Why:

I think Azumarill’s most viable set is currently sap sipper. I use a mixed def set with scald/protect/refresh/toxic. It can do things like toxic Zapdos/Mantine on the switch, or fish for burns on lando, etc, as well as flat out beating gastrodon and checking Kartana. It also does well against most fat stuff, since it can just refresh any status. It does well with wish support. Super low ladder, but this match shows a lot of what this Azu can do (with some fun rage at the end):

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-749897944