Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[1vs1s]

I would like to nominate Alomomola for B->C+.
While its ability to wish pass with the ability regenerator is beneficial to balance, stall and bulky offense, bulky waters like toxapex have more utility and reliable recovery.
Toxapex is immune to toxic which pesters alomomola and also gets access to haze, toxic spikes, etc. alomomola is often found to be really passive and can often become setup bait for clefable and sub variants of zygarde. it is also pressured by the common presence of tapu lele, tapu bulu and tapu koko. all three threaten it with their stabs can also taunt it making it only able to use scald. other water types tapu fini also do its job better because of its ability to provide immunity to status, defog and break down walls with natures madness + taunt. tapu fini is a great answer to alomomola as well.
quagsire has recover and slight niche on stall teams because of its ability unaware which prevents it from being complete setup bait. bulky offense nowadays often opts to use scarf protean greninja or other pivots for support. In conclusion, I think alomomola should be C+ because while its wish passing capabilities is niche there're a variety of bulky water types and pivots that provide more utility than just wish passing for bulky offense and stall and they can fit on almost all playstyles.

 

[Felixx]

I would like to nominate Alomomola for B->C+.
While its ability to wish pass with the ability regenerator is beneficial to balance, stall and bulky offense, bulky waters like toxapex have more utility and reliable recovery.
Toxapex is immune to toxic which pesters alomomola and also gets access to haze, toxic spikes, etc. alomomola is often found to be really passive and can often become setup bait for clefable and sub variants of zygarde. it is also pressured by the common presence of tapu lele, tapu bulu and tapu koko. all three threaten it with their stabs can also taunt it making it only able to use scald. other water types tapu fini also do its job better because of its ability to provide immunity to status, defog and break down walls with natures madness + taunt. tapu fini is a great answer to alomomola as well.
quagsire has recover and slight niche on stall teams because of its ability unaware which prevents it from being complete setup bait. bulky offense nowadays often opts to use scarf protean greninja or other pivots for support. In conclusion, I think alomomola should be C+ because while its wish passing capabilities is niche there're a variety of bulky water types and pivots that provide more utility than just wish passing for bulky offense and stall and they can fit on almost all playstyles.

I mean really your post has nothing new to say, nothing we don't already know, those flaws have always annoyed Mola, and the meta hasn't really changed enough for it to justify a rise, or a drop, it should stay where it is. In fact, Pex is actually dropping in viability to due to Gastro, and Fini hasn't been revelant in a very, very, long time. Also I don't understand why you compare it to Scarf Protean Gren and say it provides a "support role", U-turn and Wish are two very different things my friend. I think you actually underrate how good Wish can be for Stall, it's really the only viable Wish passer for Stall since Clef is ASS at passing Wishes, while Mola keeps up momentum with Regen.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

Has enough time passed to unrank

yet?

It sits at a whopping 145th place in the usage stats (weighted 1695) and its best partners according to the stats would be either full stall (Sableye-M +49.501% | Chansey +47.736% | Shedinja +45.273% | Skarmory +37.903%) for which I'm very confident better hazard removers exist (Skarm is even on that list... so it can remove hazards for Avalugg?); or a combination of Nidoking, regular Hoopa and Stunfisk AKA "that one Omari P team" from which I'm pretty sure 90% of its usage comes.

It's incredibly one-dimensional, and a bunch of better removers/physical bulky 'mons with a lot more viability exist. All you're ever doing with it is sending it in (but only when T Spikes aren't on the field ofc), recovering your 25% SR damage so Sturdy isn't broken, Spin hazards if the situation allows it, and retreat from the threatening Special Attacker that's now in front of you.
I get that RS over Defog is pretty nice, but that one move doesn't justify Avalugg's usage imo.

EXCUSE ME. Like many have stated the lugg is a godly wall that invalidates most phys attackers. Ur not afraid of phys at all even if its like an excadrill. Just bc ppl are basc and dont want to use it doesnt affect it's viability. The lugg is free, let him thrive

 

[Finchinator]

Let’s stop discussing Avalugg. We will vote on it next slate and it’s not nearly as relevant as other things worth discussing (I.e: literally any other ranked Pokemon).

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I'd like for mew to rise to A. People are starting to see the worth of offensive variants and how lit mew actually is. You really arent weak to anything that you cant take care of, you can even run vacuum wave if need be; the natural bulk is insane too. I like running np z mew with roost and earth power/aura sphere but you can run anything u want. they wont know. rock polish, z taunt idc. I even like av mew and it's still putting in work with all the 4x weak mons running amok. the fall in pex has helped this too.

 

[Taptricity]

A rise for Mew to A is too big of a stretch. Let’s put this much more realistically:

Keep Mew in B

Mew is a jack of all trades master of none. Whatever Mew can do, another mon can do it better. Now I know that the meta hasn’t really changed much for Mew but it really doesn’t have that much offensive presence like you say it does. Mewnium Z is an ok(??) Psychic nuke but every team has a tapu that can easily reset the terrain. Honestly Mew being difficult to scout is really the only thing it’s got going. Also mons with 4x weakness have always been running around I don’t know what’s your point there. The fall of pex doesn’t help this mon either since it just gives Mewnium Z even less worth which btw:
252 SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 284-336 (93.7 - 110.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery

Mew does have slight offensive presence but it doesn’t have it like say, Tapu Lele, who gets an amazing secondary typing, boosted Psychic type moves immediately, and doesn’t need to use up a Z move to set up its terrain.

 

[pooyou123456789q]

Volcanion-> C+
Every single meta trend goes against this thing. Lower Toxapex useage means it can’t beat the celepex teams that it used to. Gastrodon is on half the balance teams now so it can’t even act as a balance breaker. Mega-Lati@s gets a free switch and walls it. AV turns it into set-up fodder for every common veil sweeper. This thing is deadweight against all playsyles. There is no reason to have it ranked alongside stuff like Amoongus or Tapu Fini, which are actually used to good effect.

 

[robofiend]

A rise for Mew to A is too big of a stretch. Let’s put this much more realistically:

Keep Mew in B

Mew is a jack of all trades master of none. Whatever Mew can do, another mon can do it better. Now I know that the meta hasn’t really changed much for Mew but it really doesn’t have that much offensive presence like you say it does. Mewnium Z is an ok(??) Psychic nuke but every team has a tapu that can easily reset the terrain. Honestly Mew being difficult to scout is really the only thing it’s got going. Also mons with 4x weakness have always been running around I don’t know what’s your point there. The fall of pex doesn’t help this mon either since it just gives Mewnium Z even less worth which btw:
252 SpA Mew Genesis Supernova vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 284-336 (93.7 - 110.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery

Mew does have slight offensive presence but it doesn’t have it like say, Tapu Lele, who gets an amazing secondary typing, boosted Psychic type moves immediately, and doesn’t need to use up a Z move to set up its terrain.

I disagree because recent meta trends are actually great for Mew. With Medicham recently moving up in viability, the need for things that stop it from breaking your team has increased a lot. Reuiniclus, Bulky Torn-T and Clefable are good examlples of this, but of them Reuniclus is the only real answer to Medicham (and it comes with its own issues). Mew boasts a better support movepool than Reuni, who can attack and heal itself but that's about it, and its speed tier lets it check up-and-coming threats like SD Gliscor and Mamoswine. Not to mention that it beats pretty much every broken god snake set, which is something that eludes even Clefable. Zygarde just takes too much from Ice Beam to handle Mew - offensive sets can't OHKO it with +1 Drag-Z (not that that set gets used much), defensive sets get 2HKO'd by Ice Beam, even with max SpDef, WP sets 2HKO (even at +3), and so on. It can also eat a Hawlucha or Landorus-T hit and blast them back with Ice Beam, if need be.

Apart from physical attackers, Mew's a decent Heatran and Magearna lure since it can 2HKO the speedy variants with Earth Power, hit them with T-wave/Earth Power or just Defog and run. It's also a solid M-Latios check, who is having a bit of a bump in viability lately. Nothing that the standard 3 attacks + Roost set packs can touch Defensive Mew.

Then there's offensive sets, which are honestly not great, but can have some "gotcha" value against Heatran, Ash-Gren, and Kartana when they pack the right moves. I haven't used or seen other sets mentioned above, but Mew does have some options for other goofy niche sets like AV.

Anyway, I think all of that is enough to justify Mew B -> B+, but almost definitely not A

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I disagree because recent meta trends are actually great for Mew. With Medicham recently moving up in viability, the need for things that stop it from breaking your team has increased a lot. Reuiniclus, Bulky Torn-T and Clefable are good examlples of this, but of them Reuniclus is the only real answer to Medicham (and it comes with its own issues). Mew boasts a better support movepool than Reuni, who can attack and heal itself but that's about it, and its speed tier lets it check up-and-coming threats like SD Gliscor and Mamoswine. Not to mention that it beats pretty much every broken god snake set, which is something that eludes even Clefable. Zygarde just takes too much from Ice Beam to handle Mew - offensive sets can't OHKO it with +1 Drag-Z (not that that set gets used much), defensive sets get 2HKO'd by Ice Beam, even with max SpDef, WP sets 2HKO (even at +3), and so on. It can also eat a Hawlucha or Landorus-T hit and blast them back with Ice Beam, if need be.

Apart from physical attackers, Mew's a decent Heatran and Magearna lure since it can 2HKO the speedy variants with Earth Power, hit them with T-wave/Earth Power or just Defog and run. It's also a solid M-Latios check, who is having a bit of a bump in viability lately. Nothing that the standard 3 attacks + Roost set packs can touch Defensive Mew.

Then there's offensive sets, which are honestly not great, but can have some "gotcha" value against Heatran, Ash-Gren, and Kartana when they pack the right moves. I haven't used or seen other sets mentioned above, but Mew does have some options for other goofy niche sets like AV.

Anyway, I think all of that is enough to justify Mew B -> B+, but almost definitely not A

in all seriousness the gotcha part of the mew isnt that useful - esp in high ladder bc we all know everyone , but its still powerful. Just wanted to add to your point by saying that offensive mew is actually kinda great given the right moves and team support. If need be i can provide hella replays but its natural bulk and moveset offensive is insane. Even I've been swept by offensive mew before (double dance z with fire blast). shit hurts.

 

[GMars]

I'd like to nominate Zapdos to drop:

A- --> B+
Several meta trends are going against this Pokemon right now. Mega Latis are a dominant force right now, Clefable has spiked in usage, and Choice Band Tyranitar is seeing play again. Hawlucha is also less relevant, so one of Zapdos's defensive niches is less applicable, and Kartana has begun running a Choice Band set which can throttle Zapdos with Knock Off or even Leaf Blade when paired with Grassy Terrain support, further reducing the relevance of Zapdos's defensive niche.

 

[blastablasta]

The thought that Skarmory is bad is unfounded on fact, and is simply a hipster opinion that everyone seems to be parroting these days. Skarmory is used on some of the most consistent teams in the game, such as James rocks Gucci's Talon Stall sitting at 90% GXE, and einracht sitting at 91% GXE. No other mon in the meta has that typing as well as utility and reliable recovery.

Just like the thought Kartana is bad, that was parroted months ago at the height of Dugtrio stall, Kartana was always good, and even better during Dugtrio stall, now it sits in S- tier.

 

[patlop2307]

I'd like to nominate Zapdos to drop:

A- --> B+
Several meta trends are going against this Pokemon right now. Mega Latis are a dominant force right now, Clefable has spiked in usage, and Choice Band Tyranitar is seeing play again. Hawlucha is also less relevant, so one of Zapdos's defensive niches is less applicable, and Kartana has begun running a Choice Band set which can throttle Zapdos with Knock Off or even Leaf Blade when paired with Grassy Terrain support, further reducing the relevance of Zapdos's defensive niche.

I would overall agree with the nom, but I wanted to point out the one flaw in your argument: Clefable might've risen in usage, but what set does it mainly run now? In my experience it mainly runs Wish to maintain certain Pokémon such as Choice Scarf Lando or Celesteela (hopefully those were good examples lol). If we say it mainly runs Wish, then Pressure Zapdos would prevent rocks going up 100% of the time. That, in my opinion at least, is huge and gives Zapdos another niche which might be small for one and huge for the other. *I'm also of the opinion that Zapdos still fits in nicely on a lot of teams thanks to it's typing, but that isn't really relevant to the subject matter.

 

[robopoke]

I'd like to nominate Zapdos to drop:

A- --> B+
Several meta trends are going against this Pokemon right now. Mega Latis are a dominant force right now, Clefable has spiked in usage, and Choice Band Tyranitar is seeing play again. Hawlucha is also less relevant, so one of Zapdos's defensive niches is less applicable, and Kartana has begun running a Choice Band set which can throttle Zapdos with Knock Off or even Leaf Blade when paired with Grassy Terrain support, further reducing the relevance of Zapdos's defensive niche.

Mega Lati, fair point. However, you cannot really hardswitch because of Discharge paralysis.
Clefable? It gets paralyzed. Only CM variants are threatening to Zapdos. Even then, Clefable dislikes paralysis.
CB TTar fair point. But I don't think that it sees more play, TTar is still consistently threatening and relevant.
Idk if Hawlucha is less relevant, I still see it everywhere and it is still very threatening.

I think Zapdos is fine at where it is because it is an amazing glue to teams to check and counter lots of threats in the metagame. Static makes people think twice about U-Turning with their Greninja, Scarf Lando-T or Tornadus-T and it can be a whole new game once you paralyze their Speed control.

 

[Finchinator]

Mega Lati, fair point. However, you cannot really hardswitch because of Discharge paralysis.
Clefable? It gets paralyzed. Only CM variants are threatening to Zapdos. Even then, Clefable dislikes paralysis.
CB TTar fair point. But I don't think that it sees more play, TTar is still consistently threatening and relevant.
Idk if Hawlucha is less relevant, I still see it everywhere and it is still very threatening.

I think Zapdos is fine at where it is because it is an amazing glue to teams to check and counter lots of threats in the metagame. Static makes people think twice about U-Turning with their Greninja, Scarf Lando-T or Tornadus-T and it can be a whole new game once you paralyze their Speed control.

While some of your subpoints do check out, I think I disagree with the conclusions you draw from them and the actual impact of Discharge being present on Zapdos’s set.

While Mega Latios eating Paralysis is far from ideal, you have to consider that it’s easy to force a Roost and you also handily wall and 1v1 the classic Electric/Fire coverage Defog variant regardless (Ice bounces off, too). Zapdos just generally struggles in this match-up and off of trends prompted by this common match-up a ton.

Clefable rise in popularity is clearly not doing Zapdos any favors as it either runs Wish to help essentially heal any durable team member in Zapdos’s face while it forces a Defog or two or it Calm Minds up and not only gets surefire Stealth Rock up for the time, but also becomes more threatening with boosts. You don’t do much over 25 net with Discharge after Leftovers, if even, and that is nothing to boast about considering multiple forms of recovery and Paralysis’s speed drop not bothering Clefable whatsoever - you would need to be lucky and face an impractical Clefable variant for this truly to come into play.

Tyranitar has clearly seen more play as of late. It was fantastic in late SM and then for the first months of USM as the metagame became more bulky-offense inclusive and different threats had their day in the spotlight, Tyranitar took a hard hit in usage, especially in tournaments. Now, the metagame is for more balance oriented, as depicted by stuff like Clefable being top tier and a number of other trends, and Tyranitar has popped up as a fairly easy to fit Pursuit user and breaker that often fits as an offensive punisher and pivot on these types. Needless to say, this doesn’t bode well for Zapdos.

Hawlucha fell off pretty much around when Tyranitar picked-up as a metagame with more Clefable, Toxapex, etc. spamming became far less ideal conditions for Hawlucha to function as a stand-alone win condition. It’s still viable for sure, but mainly on Screen archetypes where it works to break Clefable for SG Magearna or DD Zygarde, for example. Koko+Hawlucha bulky-offenses that we’re popular from December-March haven’t seen much usage at all since then. Zapdos was a great niche defensive presence for these and now that’s just one less reason to use it.

Static sets have always been pretty underexplored and fringe noteworthy as Pressure is of vital importance in so many common match-ups, but I don’t think that the U-turn scouting point is that great as once you see it isn’t Pressure the first time you come in with Zapdos, you know that you can spam Stealth Rock against it and out-PP Defog with Clefable or any durable Stealth Rock setter and you know not to use unnecessary physical attacks into it (it becomes exceedingly predictable when you have U-turn spammers as well so the predictable Zapdos switch often gets taken advantage of, too, which is another reason why Static just hasn’t caught on a ton).

All things considered, Zapdos is one of the handful of Pokemon that has essentially fallen off in tournament play and even dropped off a bit in other settings, too, and I couldn’t see it maintaining its rank as that definitely wouldn’t be an accurate representation of where it is in the metagame right now.

I would overall agree with the nom, but I wanted to point out the one flaw in your argument: Clefable might've risen in usage, but what set does it mainly run now? In my experience it mainly runs Wish to maintain certain Pokémon such as Choice Scarf Lando or Celesteela alive (hopefully those were good examples lol). If we say it mainly runs Wish, then Pressure Zapdos would prevent rocks going up 100% of the time. That, in my opinion at least, is huge and gives Zapdos another niche which might be small for one and huge for the other. *I'm also of the opinion that Zapdos still fits in nicely on a lot of teams thanks to it's typing, but that isn't really relevant to the subject matter.

Covered this in my other response, but Wish Clefable allows entire bulky teams to essentially replenish health against Zapdos, which is among the more passive Pokemon to stay in against Clefable. This isn’t as favorable a sequence as you would imagine even if SR doesn’t get up. The whole Clefable-Zapdos interaction I outlined a bit more in my earlier response above.

 

[patlop2307]

Wish to help essentially heal any durable team member in Zapdos’s face while it forces a Defog

Now, I do get that Zapdos get that Wish can be somewhat of a nuisance since Zapdos gets walled by some Pokémon. But still, Stealth Rock is being kept off for good. Regardless if you use a Defog or two, you waste 4 of its Stealth Rock PP. Zapdos can easily adapt on balances and stall which cover most of the threats (Zapdos, Mega-Latios, Clefable, Tangrowth for instance). I'm sorry if I misunderstood your point, but I don't think this changes the fact that it shuts down the ability to have Stealth Rock up.

 

[robopoke]

Static sets have always been pretty underexplored and fringe noteworthy as Pressure is of vital importance in so many common match-ups, but I don’t think that the U-turn scouting point is that great as once you see it isn’t Pressure the first time you come in with Zapdos, you know that you can spam Stealth Rock against it and out-PP Defog with Clefable or any durable Stealth Rock setter and you know not to use unnecessary physical attacks into it (it becomes exceedingly predictable when you have U-turn spammers as well so the predictable Zapdos switch often gets taken advantage of, too, which is another reason why Static just hasn’t caught on a ton).
.

I agree that Pressure is a superb ability on Zapdos and even necesarry on certain builds to beat Rockers like defensive Lando-T, Clefable or Ferrothorn over the course of a longer game. If your Clefable has Zapdos as partner, you can now also use your own Zapdos to Pressurestall opposing Defog.
Example for the newer players:
a) You click Stealth Rock on your opponent switching into Pressure Zapdos. You lost two Stealth Rock PPs
b) Zapdos clicks Defog as you switch to your own Zapdos. Defog PP got reduced by two points.
c) repeat and win the PP war


All the advantages aside, Static is a more immediate gamechanging ability. Pressure is consistent and is better against fatter teams but even those fat teams utilize Speedcontrol that almost always use physical moves like Leaf Blade or U-Turn. Kartana, Landorus-T and Greninja being the premier Scarfers now have to think twice about U-Turning safely instead of getting a kill or momentum.

Access to Static can force the opponent to make suboptimal plays and this can shift the momentum back to you. One example is Mega Lopunny not megaing immediatly (unless it needs the damageboost) to enjoy Limber to to avoid Static paralysis. Another example is Tornadus-T preferring to hard switch, risking an unexpected double instead of U-turning safely. Another example is Scarf Kartana threatening a mon on your side to get revengekilled by Leaf Blade but opts to double instead, fearing Static.


Zapdos is a mon that has a great matchup against many threats (Ferro, Scizor, Lop etc.) but a terrible matchups against a ton of other threats (KyuB, Heatran, TTar etc.) But the mons it doesnt have good matchup against rarely can afford to hardswitch into Discharge and those who do not care abt Zapdos (Chansey, Zygarde, Garchomp, Mega Swampert) have to hope it does not have HP Ice or can be dealth with via teambuilding.

On the other hand I can accept it, if you think that Zapdos needs to drop because Hawlucha is less common and Clefable TTar see more play. I just ask, which statistics do you use? I am asking because I genuinly do not know. Thanks in advance.

 

[Gross Sweep]

It’s about that time for another longish post commentating on a bunch of popular nominations currently up for debate in the thread. My last post in the VR was only 2 weeks ago, so I won’t discuss any of those mons again in detail. Hopefully it’s not too boring, but with Diggersbytho in the mix I really don’t see how it could be.

Diggersbytho once swept the Pokémon community by storm, and now it appears as if it’s time to discuss this topic again. I feel like this is the stereotypical C breaker nom. Diggersby is something that has potential given good support, and can dent fatter teams on the ladder. However, when it comes down to crunch time in a serious game I really don’t think anyone is legitimately bringing this mon in SM OU. I feel like this decision more boils down to how large council members are willing to let the C/C- ranks grow. Since there will be another Diggersby type nomination in the future, and another one after that. Oddly enough Diggersby is probably one of the better C ranked nominations, just because I really enjoy the Spikes Diggersby can provide. On top of that Diggersby is a ground type, which is always nice to have in the current meta. I’ll wrap this section up by saying I do enjoy the idea of Diggersby, and wouldn’t mind seeing him on the VR, however I wouldn’t actually use it in a serious game. So take that as you will, when considering this mon. oh btw I just wanted to congratulate Kanmi on making one of the better UR to ranked noms in a while.

Mega Alakazam is a mon I’m pretty big on in the current meta. It’s a decent Heatran switch in for more offensive teams (given that you mega evolved at some point earlier in the game), has a solid speed tier, and honestly just works in the current meta. Recently psychics like M-Zam, M-Latios, M-Latias, and Reuniclus have all gotten better. Though Tyranitar and Weavile are on the rise to try and stop these telekinetic monsters, but M-zam still finds a solid niche out pacing these threats, and pressuring them with Focus Blast. Also the rise of Recover Zam has allowed it to become a Pokémon that can take a hit or two vs fatter teams that don’t apply a ton of pressure, which has given this mon new life. For the longest time people hand cuffed M-Zam to Tapu Lele, but recently M-Zam has been more widely freed from that pairing which has really allowed it to come into its own (tho Lele + Zam is still very strong).

I love M-Latios. Mamoswine coverage options, HP Fire to stop Kartana and other steels, solid stab options, and access to utility like Defog and Roost. As far as megas go, it really doesn’t get better than M-Latios in the current meta. I honestly have trouble thinking of any kind of popular match up M-Latios could face where it can’t do something positive (aside from rain I guess). Overall this mon is just very solid, and definitely deserving of the rise from A- to A. Also just a complaint from the Southern United States: this thing has a knack for freezing Tyranitars, which just makes it that much better I guess.

M-Latias is very solid as well. I’m cool with Latias rising with its brother. I usually prefer Latios when talking about a set along the lines of Earthquake, Ice beam, Psychic/Hp Fire, Roost. However, the extra bulk, and the fact it better utilizes a CM option do just enough for it to keep up with Latios. Not gonna say much more on this one as it would be repeating a lot of what I’ve already mentioned about Latios.

I am on board with a Zapdos drop, as several meta trends have Zapdos on the decline. Tyranitar, when not frozen, annoys Zapdos by simply existing, Gastrodon is a solid switch in that bugs Zapdos teams by spreading Toxic/Scald burns unless you double around with Zapdos, and the more and more popular Latis make for a great switch in. I will say I don’t think people use enough of Volt Switch Zapdos, which is a solid option for it right now. Not having to rely on doubling to get in a breaker vs things like Tangrowth, Tyranitar, or M-lati that like to come in vs Zapdos is really nice. At this point in time though Volt Switch is sadly underutilized, and coupled with mons like Gastrodon and Wish Clefable being at their height of usage in USM OU it’s hard to love Zapdos right now. Going to support this nomination for a drop.

That’s it for this post, hopefully I kept it short enough for everyone. I’ll also just say my opinions on Mew haven’t changed since my last post, so even with Omari P sparking some discussion on this mon I’m still going to say a rise to B+ is all I’m willing to support, even A- seems like too much in my opinion. Anyways that’s it for me, hopefully I didn’t bore anyone who took the time to read.

 

[Taptricity]

So I’m going to bring up something that I’ve been contemplating about due to how the current metagame is and this should be nice to discuss:

Is Toxapex still A+ material?

Now Psychic type moves have always been spammable but they’ve been much more used with Psychic types dominating the metagame. The Mega Latis, M-Zam, and Lele to further boost psychics haven’t done this mon any favors. Gastrodon also doesn’t mind coming in if it predicts the Scald. Metagame trends are just currently against the Pex a lot more than usual so should it drop? I know that Payapa Pex is still usable but considering how great Psychic spam is, it really can’t do much to save Pex and would only really help against a Shattered Psyche. Now of course Pex can act as a defensive pivot but it’s finding less opportunities to switch in.

I’m just unsure if all of these factors combined warrants a drop for Pex. There’s a difference between meta defining that some mons rise in usage to counterbalance the centralizing mon, and meta defining to the point that it isn’t because the mons are now very common and can easily disrupt the centrilizing mon. Pex is a great mon, but it’s one dimensional playstyle might’ve been exploited.

 

[1_TrickPhony]

So I’m going to bring up something that I’ve been contemplating about due to how the current metagame is and this should be nice to discuss:

Is Toxapex still A+ material?

Now Psychic type moves have always been spammable but they’ve been much more used with Psychic types dominating the metagame. The Mega Latis, M-Zam, and Lele to further boost psychics haven’t done this mon any favors. Gastrodon also doesn’t mind coming in if it predicts the Scald. Metagame trends are just currently against the Pex a lot more than usual so should it drop? I know that Payapa Pex is still usable but considering how great Psychic spam is, it really can’t do much to save Pex and would only really help against a Shattered Psyche. Now of course Pex can act as a defensive pivot but it’s finding less opportunities to switch in.

I’m just unsure if all of these factors combined warrants a drop for Pex. There’s a difference between meta defining that some mons rise in usage to counterbalance the centralizing mon, and meta defining to the point that it isn’t because the mons are now very common and can easily disrupt the centrilizing mon. Pex is a great mon, but it’s one dimensional playstyle might’ve been exploited.

I've found since Pex dropped from S-, very few teams have been preparing for it, which can really frustrate a lot of teams. Volcaronas and Greninjas are no longer carrying psychium Z, and while most teams are gonna carry a M-lati, lele, or some other psychic breaker, pair this with a trapper and it can win far too many games on its own to drop from A+. I am strongly against a drop and would like it to remain where it is.

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

I've found since Pex dropped from S-, very few teams have been preparing for it, which can really frustrate a lot of teams. Volcaronas and Greninjas are no longer carrying psychium Z, and while most teams are gonna carry a M-lati, lele, or some other psychic breaker, pair this with a trapper and it can win far too many games on its own to drop from A+. I am strongly against a drop and would like it to remain where it is.

To jump off of this post, trappers like Weavile and Tyranitar are rising with the numerous psychic spam mons. There are indeed ways to circumvent the rise of psychic types.

On the other hand this does mean Toxapex needs more team support to be effective, which is much different then it's old role of a catch all defensive pivot. Only time and the meta can tell where Toxapex ends up, for now ill say keep in A+.

I'll also echo some other noms:

Mega Lati: A- - A: Agree

Depending on which Lati one uses, they may either have a terrifying wall breaker or a terrifying sweeper. These mons have some grade A psychic spam as well as ways to work around their greatest counters (M-Latios has earthquake to hit Tyranitar and Heatran, M-Latias has surf, bulk, and several boosting moves to power up her attacks). Also Usage rates have increased for both mons. Move to A

Weavile: B+ - A-: Agree

With the rise of psychic types once again, Weavile's offensive type combination and access to pursuit are now more useful than ever. Metagame trends are really working in favor of Weavile, it's prowess as an offensive dark type threatens the rising psychics like Reuniclus, the Mega Latis, Mew, and Tapu Lele. Weavile has not been in this good position since the olden days of Naganadel. Plz move to A-.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Toxapex from A+ to A: Disagree
Toxapex is still an amazing mon that is more than worthy of A+. For one, Psychic-types that give Toxapex trouble were just as common when Toxapex dropped initially, so this isn’t a great reason for it to drop. Mega Latias being common is actually good for Pex since it is a decent stop to the CM set so long as Pex has Haze. Toxic Spikes are also very slept on at the moment. People using Bulky Scarf Lando as their Hazard Control is great for Pex since it isn’t particularly reliable at stopping Tspikes. Finally, Toxapex walls many relavent Pokemon at the moment such as SD Mega Scizor and Ash Greninja.
Now for two of my own mons.

Mamoswine from B to B+
Mamoswine is very threatening to a lot of teams atm. For one, it appreciates Mega Lati@s being common atm, since it can threaten both with Icicle Crash and Ice Shard respectively. Ice Shard also allows Mamoswine to check Pokémon such as Lando, Tornadus-T, Zygarde, and Swords Dance Gliscor. Bulkier teams are sleeping heavily on Mamoswine atm. Celesteela is rather uncommon atm, as is Skarmory. This allows Mamoswine to crush common Balance teams that use cores such as ClefTran, GastroTran, and ClefFerro. Mamoswine takes advantage of a lot of mons people are spamming atm such as Zygarde, Tornadus, Lando, and Bulu. All these factors make Mamoswine B+ worthy.

Tapu Lele from A to A+
Tapu Lele is also in a great spot in the meta currently. For one, Tapu Lele finds many opportunities to wallbreaker with Mega Lati@s, Clefable, and Gastrodon all being very common. Celesteela is also low in usage atm. With the Calm Mind set, Tapu Lele is capable of destroying the bulky teams that are incredibly common atm. Heatran is not a very good answer to Tapu Lele since it gets threatened by +1 Focus Blast. Finally, Tapu Lele also appreciates Tapu Bulu using SD more, meaning there is less AV Bulu to worry about.

 

[Taptricity]

Thanks for all of the replies. I brought up Toxapex to create more discussion on the current metagame trends and because I was rather unsure of where it belongs placement wise. I wasn’t trying to really push for a drop.

I also agree with a Lele rise. It’s power to wallbreak is very effective along with the support it provides to the other Psychic types that are rising (Mega Zam to be specific). It also can use Fightinium and Calm Mind to break right through it’s most common checks atm.

 

[N_Mareanie]

mlops
just bad lol
not much else to say abt it
not worth using in this meta w a lot of other megas being so good as they r rn
clef meta
too
~ Jordy

Lopunny-Mega: B+ --> B

I think this is pretty straightforward. Clefable being utterly amazing and everywhere right now hurts Lopunny a lot, struggles to spam its STABs against Clef-Lando-Gastro teams, and the meta being basically balance actually hurts it a lot. Certain meta trends like defensive Z-Fly or defensive Scarf lando aren't it really doing it any favour either. The competition it has for a mega slot is way too big, since there are so many better mega's I'd rather choose in this meta (Mega Medi, Mega Lati's, Mega Sciz, Mega Zam). MegaZam getting more popular isn't exactly great for it either.

 

[Espeonage.]

some opinions on stuff that has been discussed:
regarding s-, i personally think that it should be scrapped, and s should be lando tran zyg and clef. i think its pretty clear that lando isnt the undisputed best mon in the meta anymore, clef ferro and tran are all more common/about as common as defensive lando as rockers, z lando is still at the same point its been at for a while of being a good mon but not that commonand not one of landos best sets. scarf lando is in a good spot rn, but as a whole idt lando is as dominant anymore, esp w rise of things like tornt. as for the others, ppl have alrdy explained why they deserve s, tran is so scary too face and a great rocker, esp shit like z tran w wish clef. clef is super dominant rn and is the face of the most common archetypr, balance. zyg is broken. kart is still excellent, but it should drop bc sd sets are no longer as threatening and thats what it was ranked s- for, and while scarf/band are excellent, they dont warrant s-

pex dropping is absurd, pex is still a fantastic mon that does so much and even if its usage has fell a bit, its still super fuckin dumb, dont drop

ive never understood why ppl see volc as an a+ mon, yes its a v scary sweeper that can do a lot of damage, but no it doesnt 6-0 every team and its usage is lower than any other mon in any of the a ranks, dont rise

m-lop should def drop, its usage is super low rn and for good reason, clefs the queen and stops lop hard, scarf lando usage is super high and gives lop a super hard time, it just struggles a lot w the meta rn.

now for my own nom, zam to a-. zam is honestly a fantastic mega, and i see it as a top 3 mega personally. recover zam is honestly so threatening and can exploit a lot of common mons, notably tran and pex, and like this mon put in so much work vs so many teams. as an axample, look at the sm game from smogtour finals, blunders zam did so much work because his only switchin was steela, and since he had a tang, he could prevent the steela from recovering when paired w rocks, come in on pex freely, and slowly wear steela down until it couldnt switchin, at which point zam just won.

 

[lydian]

I'd also like to hop on the removing-S- train. While it was an excellent solution at the time, I think at the moment this extra tier accomplishes nothing. Here are a couple implications of removing S-:

Landorus-T

While this Pokémon is still outstanding in the current metagame, mostly via its bulky Choice Scarf set, I think other Pokémon have caught up to its viability right now, all of which I'll cover later. But still, its viability doesn't seem to just match what it was a while ago. Some of its once more popular sets such as Defensive, Offensive Scarf, and Z-move have fallen a little bit out of favor, decreasing its omnipresence to some extent. This can be illustrated to some extent thanks to its usage actually dropping a bit in the high ladder (1825), as evidenced by the following:

2018-03: | 1 | Landorus-Therian | 47.07657% | 1072193 | 27.779% | 910598 | 31.165% |
2018-04: | 1 | Landorus-Therian | 46.83306% | 1007441 | 27.888% | 859529 | 31.445% |
2018-05: | 1 | Landorus-Therian | 42.47845% | 1035003 | 27.506% | 880833 | 30.895% |

In general, I think the likes of Zygarde and Heatran have for sure caught up with it in terms of viability.

Heatran

I think this Pokémon is just amazing right now, zero doubts. It has a fuckton of viable and effective sets; Firium Z is a devastating nuke that can bop Stall in a blink of an eye; Groundium Z is still nice for Toxapex running around, but it has fallen in favor a little bit; Grassium Z decimates Gastrodon Clefable builds and can also take down Mega Sableye with Tapu Bulu support; finally even Steelium Z is seeing some play (read: blunder winning his first trophy) and is amazing to severely damage Mega Eon Duo and Zygarde. All in all its Utility set is also equally as viable, fitting on basically any team and providing astounding role compression. I just think this mon has barely any flaws in the current meta and it really should be ranked alongside titans such as Landorus-T and Zygarde in S.

Zygarde

I know I just nominated this for S- but, in actuality, I think S is more fitting for it. With literally a dozen viable sets and able to cheese its way through nearly any of its checks, Zygarde is just disgustingly good right now. If S- is in fact removed, I think Zygarde definitely should be in S as opposed to A+. Zygarde also heavily capitalizes on typical Landorus-T / Clefable teambuilding with its Weakness Policy set and I think it the fact that it is so great against most of the current metagame really should be reflected. I wouldn't say there's unanimity in deciding the best Pokémon in OU, but I think we can all agree Zygarde is the most annoying to deal with.

Clefable

So, this is the kind of Pokémon that would really appreciate an S- rank. Its kind of in fact in between S and A+ but I think it can stay in A+ for now not to make S too crowded, especially since I do feel Zygarde, Heatran, and Landorus-T are kind of a step above it. In general, I think this mon should end up in A+ if the idea of removing S- is in fact adopted, but I can see it in either S or A+, to be honest. It'd most likely be the worst Pokémon in S or the second best in A+, after Kartana.

Kartana

Despite its recent Choice Band set making a big splash in terms of viability, I don't think Kartana can reach the standards of the big three (Landorus-T, Heatran, and Zygarde) just yet. Just like Clefable, it'd be that kind of mon that sits between S and A-, but I'd lean it a bit towards A+ to avoid making S too big. It'd most likely be the second worst Pokémon in S, after Clefable or the very best in A+.

With these intended changes the VR would look something along these lines, which I think reflects the current metagame a lot better:

SM OU Ranking Tier List

(In alphabetical order)

S Rank:

Heatran
Landorus-T

Zygarde

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Clefable

Ferrothorn

Greninja-Ash

Kartana

Magearna

Tapu Koko

Toxapex
[...]

Now, there have been a couple recent nominations I'd also like to give my support to. I fully agree with GMars' post and I think Zapdos

should drop again, in all honesty. While its a solid and splashable Physical wall, the moment Kartana wields a Choice Band, Zapdos loses a big portion of its charm.
Another one I'd like to rise, that I actually forgot to comment on my previous post (oops) is Mega Latias

. I think most of what I was going to say was already said, with new options in Reflect Type and Recover + 3 Attacks being further explored I think this Pokémon really deserves rise. It also heavily appreciates Gastrodon and Swords Dance Tapu Bulu flourishing again, as it has a great matchup with both.