Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[MFJK]

Hey guys, I thought I'd add some dicussion with a couple of noms.

from B to B+
Mega Charizard X has been nominated in the past for a rise but I think that right now is an appropriate time for it to rise, seeing as it has really started to get some usage and the meta has changed in a way that it appreciates. Zard X was a really underrated mon over the past few months and the recent metagame changes, which favor bulky offense teams over more balanced ones, allows both DD and 3 Attyacks sets to shine even more. A lot of teams right now rely on Toxapex / Heatran / Bulky Zygarde as their main fire check, and all three of them are hit by a coverage Zard X can carry. DD sets are especially threatening because of that, as it can easily come in on common pokemons such as grass-types, m-scizor, gound-types like landorus-t and gliscor (pre mega), as well as the aforementioned heatran and toxapex to a lesser extent. Also, more people started running Outrage on it, which makes it an effective stall breaker as it can 2HKO both Pyukumuku and Quagsire. Another factor is the fact that it is not as hard to build around thanks to hazard control being easier to fit on teams with Tapu Fini and Excadrill being valuable options, and , of course, Tornadus-T and Landorus-T being as good as ever. All in all, I think that with more consistent usage, its ability to abuse common team structures, as well as more support options, Mega Charizard X deserves torise to B+ and could even rise even further in the near future.

from Unranked to C
If you have been following tournaments, you must have noticed that regular Kyurem has been getting some usage with its subroost set, which is absolutely terrifying for common defensive cores on bulky offense and balance, which allows it to really threaten those types of teams.

Good Bad (Kyurem) @ Leftovers/Metronome
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid tNature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Roost
- Substitute

With its natural bulk, it's sub can resist Power Whip from Ferrothorn and a lot of Scalds from Toxapex and then proceed to weaken and stall them out. Thanks to its typing, it can come in on common threats such as Bulu, Tangrowth, Rotom-W, and even Greninja before Ash which means that this pokemon is extremely hard to force out and puts in a lot of work, which I can tell from my own experience playing with it. Metronome is a pretty interesting option on it, making its moves even more spammable, allowing it to take out stuff like Clefable and even M-Scizor in the right condition after some boosts.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-403125
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-400557

These are a couple of replays that show Kyurem in action. I definitely think that it is much more effective than everything in C-. This pokemon puts a lot of pressure on common team structures and could definitely rise even further.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

Upon serious discussion with the OU Moderation team, I have decided that we are preemptively blacklisting Crustle. Please do not post responding to this with any questions or post anything about Crustle in this thread, thank you. If you have questions, contact me via VM or PM (here or discord).

In addition, remember to follow the subforum and thread rules while posting seeing as we have been having numerous problems recently.

bet - ill see u on thursday tho dont complain when that ass gets tapped by the crab. Leo ur ass is next too lol dont think I have forgotten how you've targeting the goatmari p

NOMINATING MELOETTA FOR C

(copy/pasting my post from the victim of the week thread, hence the lele focus)​

View attachment 139725
Meloetta @ Psychium Z
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt​

Meloetta is a super hipster lele answer, but very effective nonetheless. First and foremost, she is only 3hkod by any of lele's moves and, thanks to psychic terrain, can easily 2hko back (or calm mind then 1hko), even without prior damage.

Lele vs Meloetta Calcs:

Spoiler

252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meloetta: 126-148 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meloetta in Psychic Terrain: 122-144 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Meloetta: 112-132 (32.8 - 38.7%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO

Meloetta vs Lele Calcs:

Spoiler

252 SpA Meloetta Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele in Psychic Terrain: 123-146 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Meloetta Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele in Psychic Terrain: 171-202 (60.8 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Meloetta Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele in Psychic Terrain: 256-302 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Some other notable matchups:

- Outpseeds & 1hkos max-hp heatran at +1, and she has a chance to 1hko offensive heatran without a boost after rocks. Meanwhile, she is only 3hkod by magma storm (including bind damage). After a calm mind, this turns into a 4hko.​

- Her normal typing means she is immune to shadow ball, letting her comfortably check alakazam, blacephalon, and gengar. Even without a calm mind, she avoids the 2hko from all of them (excluding specs blac). Boosting her spdef puts her in an even more favorable position, obviously.​

- She can 1hko bulky zygarde variants after a calm mind. With a bit of prior damage, she doesn't need a boost. Meanwhile, she avoids the 2hko from their unboosted thousand arrows, meaning that she wins 1v1.​

- After a calm mind, she has a chance to avoid the 2hko from unboosted volcarona bug buzz and the 1hko from savage spin-out. She easily 1hkos back with psyshock (regardless of quiver dance boosts since targets defense). If volc isn't carrying savage spin out or you have already lured it, you win the 1v1. Definitely don't use her as your primary volc check, but she can do alright in a pinch.​

​

- Avoids the 2hko from serperior leaf storm even at +0 spdef. unboosted z-psyshock kills in return. ​

- 1HKOs spdef tapu bulu with unboosted z-psyshock​

More stuff:

She has seen a decent amount of use in the top 10 ladder recently, especially during the megazam-heavy meta. Here's one of the teams, for reference (shoutout to whoever made it idr): https://pokepast.es/2186c833f8bd7487

Also worth mentioning Z-Psyshock. Psyshock itself targets defence, but shattered psyche targets spdef. That lets you reap the benefits of psyshock, but still kill 252/252 bold clefable (for example) with shattered psych after a boost (or no boost with ~25% chip damage @ unaware). Psychic is certainly an option, though. One of the other successful meloetta teams opted to run it over psyshock, iirc.

As if all that wasn't great enough, serene grace let's you bs your way through a

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-818405162

Meloetta was vital in forcing out mons that otherwise gave me a ton of trouble (mag, lele) without sacrificing momentum and giving toxa/chansey/zapdos an opportunity to heal or wish/defog/etc. I had a Lele & bulu "counter" in celesteela (which was in kill range after specs Lele spdef drop l o l), but bringing him in would give chansey and zapdos and toxa and mag a free turn unless I made a risky double that would probably end up with Lele koing something. As a result, lop and marowak and meloetta stayed as constant wincons, cuz chansey couldn't heal (which would cause marowak to kill himself with recoil), toxa couldn't heal or knock off (which would put him out of lop and marowak KO range), mag couldn't set up (if it was cm or shift gear) and zapdos couldn't safely roost or defog (which would put him out of KO range of marowak and lop and keep the rest of his team safe from being 1hkod by meloetta without rock damage). Celesteela and other defensive checks would have fucked that up and I would easily get outstalled. I had subcoil zygarde too fwiw.

Also she swept at the end.

He could have switched to bulu sooner at the end if it could tank psyshock so well (maybe bulu was ivd wrong? lol it looks like max def band instead of max attack), but i also could have not used my z move on mag (which has a chance to 1hko btw) if I knew it was scarf and not cm or something. It wouldn't have changed the game at that point anyway.

IP edit: you linked battle, not replay n_n

Edit: I think we got it this time.

Edit2: also when the fuck did offensive toxapex become a thing fml

Anyway what I truly want to do is echo this nom fully. Storm Zone is a example of a notorious meleotta user and this mon has a unique type which makes usual psychic counters terrible for it. It's special bulk is phenomenal and if u have the right set you're gucci. For example, one notable set is calm mind z thunder which shits on so many mons and it cannot be killed with dark pulse or knock off for that matter and has moves like focus blast to back shit up. If u run sub thats even better. You can also try out specs or av - either way this shit is really an overlooked mon highly recc it. its really important to note that ur effective special bulk is higher than latias so ur shit is lit as hell

 

[Felixx]

Got a few quick noms to get through...

: B to B+
Protect sets are really annoying for Offense to deal with, Scarf Lando basically has to click EQ then you're forced to make an aggressive and somewhat predictable double, Scarf Kart can't just spam Knock Off against it, Spiking w/ Ash-Gren against it is impossible, and Ferro has to play annoying 50/50s that can let shit in like Heatran in for free w/o being able to get any hazard momentum, definitely worth a raise.

: B- to B/B+
SD + Rockium sets have started popping up, bops Tapu Bulu, Tang, Clef, and Celesteela at +2, still retains enough offensive power w/o Dragon STAB since EdgeQuake is good coverage, nice offensive rocker that deals w/ Heatran, so give it a raise, it's slightly underrated.

: B to B+
Pretty good wallbreaker that takes advantage of common Bulky Offense builds, pressures Tang, Zyg, Ferro, etc, usual shit, very hard to revenge kill due to good natural bulk + cool typing, definitely worth a raise bc it's better than shit like Gengar and Kingdra.

 

[volx757]

from Unranked to C
If you have been following tournaments, you must have noticed that regular Kyurem has been getting some usage with its subroost set, which is absolutely terrifying for common defensive cores on bulky offense and balance, which allows it to really threaten those types of teams.

Good Bad (Kyurem) @ Leftovers/Metronome
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid tNature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Roost
- Substitute

With its natural bulk, it's sub can resist Power Whip from Ferrothorn and a lot of Scalds from Toxapex and then proceed to weaken and stall them out. Thanks to its typing, it can come in on common threats such as Bulu, Tangrowth, Rotom-W, and even Greninja before Ash which means that this pokemon is extremely hard to force out and puts in a lot of work, which I can tell from my own experience playing with it. Metronome is a pretty interesting option on it, making its moves even more spammable, allowing it to take out stuff like Clefable and even M-Scizor in the right condition after some boosts.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-403125
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-400557

These are a couple of replays that show Kyurem in action. I definitely think that it is much more effective than everything in C-. This pokemon puts a lot of pressure on common team structures and could definitely rise even further.

Just curious, what does this mon do that kyub doesn't do? Sure it's ice beams are a bit more powerful, but I can't think of any calcs it influences.
I watched the replays to try to get an idea of why I should use regular kyurem instead of b, and the only thing I picked up from the replays was that it would've been nice to have hp fire on the set.
The first replay had the rain user giving up momentum and free subs over and over and was (no offense to that guy) just really poor play in general, and the second replay kyurem dodged a few attacks that would've KO'd or seriously wounded it, but in both replays it looks like kyurem-b could do the exact same thing.
I've been running sub-lefties kyu-b with beam, fusion bolt, and ep/hp fire, and I it plays exactly the same way this set does. Does it really just boil down to that if you're not running fusion bolt you should take the 10 extra spatk?

 

[Jordy]

Just curious, what does this mon do that kyub doesn't do? Sure it's ice beams are a bit more powerful, but I can't think of any calcs it influences.
I watched the replays to try to get an idea of why I should use regular kyurem instead of b, and the only thing I picked up from the replays was that it would've been nice to have hp fire on the set.
The first replay had the rain user giving up momentum and free subs over and over and was (no offense to that guy) just really poor play in general, and the second replay kyurem dodged a few attacks that would've KO'd or seriously wounded it, but in both replays it looks like kyurem-b could do the exact same thing.
I've been running sub-lefties kyu-b with beam, fusion bolt, and ep/hp fire, and I it plays exactly the same way this set does. Does it really just boil down to that if you're not running fusion bolt you should take the 10 extra spatk?

It's called Pressure.

To not make this a one liner, I agree with ranking Kyurem, and rising Mega Heracross and Mega Diancie.

 

[MikeDawg]

Just curious, what does this mon do that kyub doesn't do? Sure it's ice beams are a bit more powerful, but I can't think of any calcs it influences.
I watched the replays to try to get an idea of why I should use regular kyurem instead of b, and the only thing I picked up from the replays was that it would've been nice to have hp fire on the set.
The first replay had the rain user giving up momentum and free subs over and over and was (no offense to that guy) just really poor play in general, and the second replay kyurem dodged a few attacks that would've KO'd or seriously wounded it, but in both replays it looks like kyurem-b could do the exact same thing.
I've been running sub-lefties kyu-b with beam, fusion bolt, and ep/hp fire, and I it plays exactly the same way this set does. Does it really just boil down to that if you're not running fusion bolt you should take the 10 extra spatk?

Sub roost is standard set. With pressure, can stall out ferrothorn gyro ball for example. With tspikes support, can often win the game immediately. Gives some offensive presence and speed to bulkier teams as well.

 

[Gross Sweep]

After a long wait it is time for another overly long VR post, as I’m bored on fall break. It has been a while since my last post in the thread, so there is a lot to talk about. I’ll touch on the nominations that interest me, and also as a special treat I’ll give my thoughts on the C rank that is starting to look a little disheveled to me.

First up is Garchomp, who I believe rose up to B- recently. I think chomper is due for another rise as it has really started to take off in the metagame (a lot of the reasons mentioned earlier in the thread). Solid rocker, powerful Z-Edge when combined with Sd, and helps vs Tran. Offensive variants also hit a good speed tier outpacing threats like Lele and Kyurem-B. I don’t know if I’d go up to B+/A- as some people have suggested as there still is competition from Lando, Zygarde, and Excadrill who is starting to see some blip usage, but I think B rank is definitely where Chomp belongs, maybe even B+.

Volcarona does Volcarona things, and should most definitely not drop to B+. This mon fluctuates all the time as sets are explored and forgotten. I’ll admit Volcarona is in a bit of a lull, but I feel it’s still a strong enough option to remain in A-. Even with team building constraints, and meta adaption to the common sets of the time Volcarona still manages to serve as a strong sweeper finding ways around its check one building innovation at a time (also still continues to just 6-0 plenty of teams). Won’t spend much more time on this as I have faith in the VR council to not drop Volc, so I apologize if this isn’t very in depth.

I am all aboard the Diancie train right now. As mentioned above Protect M-Diancie is helping deal with Specs Greninja + scarf Landorus putting them in some tough places decision wise. The offensive typing we all feared pre-release is also finally starting to make some moves in the metagame.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-404336
​

I think this replay from snake does a good job of showing what M-Diancie is capable of under regular circumstances. It gets hazards early, keeps the opponent from clicking rocks or tspikes early on, and helps chip down the opposition a bit. It hardly dominates the match up, but it does a good job helping set up a manageable end game leading to a win from the M-Diancie user. I feel like what M-Diancie is capable of doing falls in line with B+ really well, it’s always gonna do something be it applying pressure with its offensive potential, making the opponent second think hazards/status, or forcing choice locked users into a tough spot thanks to Protect. I wouldn’t think of it as dominating enough to rise to A-, but B+ seems very satisfactory.

Mega Heracross is another B ranked mega that is up for a rise. Doing a number against fatter teams, especially with M-Aggron seeing more usage on stall, while also having some cool resists like Ground, Grass, and Dark among others along with solid bulk giving M-Heracross the ability to eat a hit or two in most games. I couldn’t find many clean games from snake where M-hera went in, but one of the most successful usages of M-Hera would be a Ske Mask M-hera teaming getting someone qualified for OLT, so it has had some success recently. Personally I’m not the biggest fan of M-hera as I feel it’s a bit too slow, even with all its breaking potential, but I see where people are coming from loving that match up vs fat. I would probably vote to keep it in B, but I am very curious to see how the council will vote on it, as it's one of the more recent noms I actually haven't been super sure on.

Kyurem is pretty obvious, that thing deserves to be ranked. I think King did a decent enough job discussing this, so I won’t add anything new. Simply going to support the rise to C and move on.

I also think the Serperior nom is pretty cut and dry right now. After starting to get some good usage on HO in OLT, Glare Serp has started to spread finding a home on a variety of builds. Good typing, the ability to spread that yellow color, along with the steam roll potential of Contrary Leaf Storm makes me support the nom to A-. I feel Serp is a really solid meta pick right now, and deserves to kick it in A-, not much to add that hasn’t already been said.

Finally we get the delightful C rank. I don’t really have anything super concrete to say that wouldn’t be overly long, but I’ll just say I think C- through probably B- might need looking into. I feel like there are a lot of little nitpicks you could make on a decent amount of the mons here reshaping this lower rank to something a bit more accurate. A recent post by Finch nominating mons like the Lati’s and Mantine to move was a good start, but I just feel an overhaul here is an option worth looking into by the council. Lower ranks often get messy, and I feel now seems like a good time to do a little cleaning. I apologize if this comes of a bit incoherent/incomplete, it’s just something that has been bothering me for a bit, and I wanted to throw out the issue at the very least. Would be happy to discuss this further if anyone on council wants to discuss. Also don’t rank Electrode, it was a meme and I got the logs to prove it...And gl making a decision on Meloetta.

Anyways that should do it for me, feel like I said everything I wanted to say. As always I thank anyone who took the time to read this post. Hopefully it wasn’t too boring/weird with the C rank ramblings.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

I havent posted in a while so imma say my thoughts on the current noms.

Kyurem to C: Agree
This thing deserves to be ranked for its previously mentioned qualities of beating weaker walls like toxapex and tangrowth and its been getting use in tour.

Diancie to B: Agree
Ive been trying diancie and i gotta say, its not too bad. protect is def great on it with all the choice locked attackers trying to beat it, beat certain balance staples like latis and tran (if u have earth power), and it can rocks up vs sableye, which not much else can do.

Garchomp to B/B+: Agree
This mon has been becoming great with things like z edge discovered along with the previous reasons stated throughout the thread.

Serp to A-: Def Agree
This thing is so good rn im surprised it didnt rise to A- already. Serp is one of the few mons that can say it beats a lot of its counters with sub seed/glare. great addition to the meta, raise it.

Herracross to B+: Agree
I feel the same about herra as when i nommed it back in the middle of july. its a great mon thats been slept on and has so much more potential and viability than shit like victini or kingdra. it also smashes balance and stall, which is big rn.

Now for my own nom (its a repeat but it applies):

Zard Y from B- to B+

How is this thing still B- and below shitty stuff like kingdra or victini and even fuckin mamo? its also certainly better than zard x rn, at least to me. it makes teams lacking pex, chansey, or latis have a tough time dealing with it. its also ez to give defog support with so many of them being amazing (z fight defog torn anyone?). it can even get spin from drill since drill has become p usable again. this mon also saw use from bro kappa. zard+weavile is also a very annoying core for bulky teams. it even has p good bulk, taking magearnas modest tbolt, soft checking tran, and taking a +1 psychic from timid zam 100% while taking +1 modest 47% of the time. with the meta being bulkier again, zard has def gotten better and it should be reflected in its rank imo.

 

[Lotus]

Nomination of currently unranked Kyurem is something I find very interesting. A set that I saw a few times when I lurked UU forums once or twice turns out to work well in OU where it can take advantage of most 'defensive glues' or reactive Pokemon like Toxapex / Tangrowth, on top of being quite difficult to handle defensively. I recently had a few words exchanged with a few users about effectiveness of Regenerator users and being able to prey on them makes me think Kyurem can potentially be ranked C+, though I'd say C is also a good place to start.

Placing an unranked Pokemon higher than C from the start isn't something I commonly see from this thread either, but majority of the Pokemon found in C have flaws of being useful in only one team archetype, being extremely reliant on matchup, or being one-dimensional. While being one-dimensional doesn't directly translate to the Pokémon's overall viability Pokemon I currently see in C+ and C provide barely any defensive presence and has little option to counteract against their checks. I believe Kyurem's selling points outweigh these Pokemon because

1. It retains some form of usefulness against all teams because the Mamoswine coverage that is shown from the moveset is difficult to switch in for offense, balanced teams are mostly slower than Kyurem, and slower teams face similar issues while having more limited pool of Pokemon that can actually break Substitute & take Ice Beams

2. Has Stealth Rock weakness / can't hard switch into set-Substitute-targets without scouting (ex. watch out for tang koff) but is quite bulky and is able to take a neutral hit from most offensive Pokemon

3. Needs team support in form of entry hazards but preparing for these isn't going to significantly change the structure of the team - this is a lot different from some TR / Sticky Web Pokemon that can only fit into certain teams or can be fit into teams but will force players to construct the rest of the team with some 'forced' teammates. Spikes / Tspikes for Kyurem is far from burdensome to provide, and Kyurem can turn tables quite well with such support.

Again, Kyurem being placed at C seems fine to me though I think C+ is also possible. There has to be some time for observation after ranking something that barely saw any use in OU at all previously, but this is my initial thought on this Pokemon.

 

[Finchinator]

Closing this thread for a slate that I will get to this weekend. When the new slate is done, Crustle will be unblacklisted for Thunder Pwoell to make one post on. Only one. And nobody else.

 

[Finchinator]

Subject 18 is stepping down from the OU VR Council. Thank you very much for your service and commitment over the last year and change. We all wish you the best!

 

[Finchinator]

Hello everyone. First and foremost, we would like to welcome suapah to the OU VR team! He will be discussing and voting on slates moving forward. Second off, the next slate will be around the end of Snake, so expect it to be a bit shorter than your average one unless I feel more discussion time is needed (realistic chance this is the case, but for now try to get your points in promptly if you have any). Finally, let's get onto this round of changes!

full list of things voted on

Drops:

Heatran from S to A+ : S4
Landorus-Therian from S to A+ : S4
Tornadus-Therian from A+ to A : A2 A+2 (stays A+, but becomes discussion point to drop to A)
Toxapex from A+ to A : A+3 A
Magnezone from A to A-: A- A3
Medicham-Mega from A to A-: A3 A-
Tyranitar from A to A-: A-4 ---> Tyranitar drops to A-
Pinsir-Mega from A- to B+: B+4 ---> Pinsir-Mega drops to B+
Gyarados from A- to B+: B+4 ---> Gyarados drops to B+
Gyarados-Mega from B+ to B: B4 ---> Gyarados-Mega drops to B
Gengar from B to B-: B-4 ---> Gengar drops to B-
Volcanion from B- to C+: B-2 C+2 (stays B-, but becomes discussion point to drop to C+)
Latias from B- to C+: C+4 ---> Latias drops to C+
Latios from B- to C+: C+3 B- ---> Latios drops to C+
Araquanid from C+ to C: C+3 C
Ditto from C+ to C: C4 ---> Dittos drops to C
Mantine from C+ to C: C4 ---> Mantine drops to C
Marowak-Alola from C+ to C/C-: C-3 C ---> Marowak-Alola drops to C-
Zeraora from C to C-/UR: UR3 C ---> Zeraora drops to UR
Altaria-Mega from C- to UR: UR3 C- ---> Altaria-Mega drops to UR
Aerodactyl-Mega from C- to UR: UR2 C-2 (stays C-, but becomes discussion point to drop to UR)
Stakataka from C- to UR: UR4 ---> Stakataka drops to UR

Rises:

Zygarde from A+ to S: A+4 (unblacklisted)
Greninja-Ash from A+ to S: A+3 S (becomes discussion point to rise to S)
Mawile-Mega from A+ to S: A+2 S (becomes discussion point to rise to S)
Tangrowth from A to A+: A A+3 ---> rises to A+
Magearna from A to A+: A+3 A ---> rises to A+
Volcarona from A- to A: A3 A- ---> rises to A
Chansey from A- to A: A2 A-2 (stays A-, but becomes discussion point to rise to A)
Sableye-Mega from B+ to A-: B+2 A-2 (stays B+, but becomes discussion point to rise to A-)
Zapdos from B+ to A-: B+3 A-
Serperior from B+ to A-: B+4
Diancie-Mega from B to B+/A-: A-2 B+2 (stays B+, but becomes discussion point to rise to A-)
Heracross-Mega from B to B+: B+2 B2 (stays B, but becomes discussion point to rise to B+)
Hydreigon from B- to B: B4 ---> rises to B+
Garchomp from B- to B: B ----> B+ (discussed internally, voters prefer B+)
Charizard-Mega-X from B to B+: B+ (discussed internally, mutually agreed to B+ despite not a common nomination)
Charizard-Mega-Y from B- to B: B2 B-2 (stays B-, but becomes discussion point to rise to B)
Blacephalon from B- to B: B-2 B2 (stays B-, but becomes discussion point to rise to B)
Tapu Fini from B- to B: B-2 B2 (stays B-, but becomes discussion point to rise to B)
Slowbro-Mega from C+ to B-: B-4 ---> rises to B-
Crawdaunt from C to C+: C3 C+
Avalugg from C to C+: C2 C+2 (stays C, but becomes discussion point to rise to C+)
Slowbro from C- to C/C+: C+3 C ---> rises to C+
Buzzwole from C- to C: C4 ---> rises to C
Aggron-Mega from UR to C-/C: C3 C- ---> rises to C
Kommo-O from UR to C-: UR2 C-2 (stays UR, but becomes discussion point to rise to C-)
Snorlax from UR to C-: UR3 C-
Empoleon from UR to C-: UR4
Hoopa from UR to C-: UR4
Shiftry from UR to C-: UR4
Electrode from UR to C-: C- UR3
Meloetta from UR to C-: UR4
Kyurem from UR to C-: C- (even C or C+ imo) ----> C (discussed internally, voters preferred C)

Rises

• Tangrowth from A to A+ -- Tangrowth has become one of the most common Pokemon in the tier. The AV set has ridiculous defensive utility, making it an almost must on a lot of balance and bulky-offensive structures lacking another grass such as Tapu Bulu or an AV Magearna core. Being able to check Ash Greninja, Zygarde, Tapu Koko, and a number of other common Pokemon makes it an increasingly practical pick. In addition, the Rocky Helmet set should not be forgotten either, being a passable defensive presence on balance and a great option for select stall teams.
• Magearna from A to A+ -- Magearna has been flaunting its movepool and utility for as long as SM has been out, but recently it has been picking up in steam. The AV set is seeing more usage now, being on most bulky-offensive structures and even a viable option on balance with support, and Shift Gear variants are as potent as they have been in the last year or so. The Shift Gear + Calm Mind set has especially been taking off, cleaning out many games.
• Volcarona from A- to A -- Despite having a very low floor, Volcarona also has a higher ceiling than anything in the SM OU metagame. It can and will sweep unprepared teams with unparalleled effectiveness (besides perhaps Hawlucha). Overall, Volcarona probably should have never dropped to A-, but it has been picking up a bit anyway with QD + Fire Blast + Z-Bug Buzz + HP Ground, so that's more than enough reason to move it up.
• Diancie-Mega from B to B+ -- Great Stealth Rock setter against stall with respectable (mixed) breaking capabilities and a godsend of an ability. Can be a pain to use, but overall picking up in usage and niche, so it rises.
• Charizard-Mega-X from B to B+ -- The council elected to move this up on discussing it internally, for the record. Charizard X is not the easiest Pokemon to use, but it has seen more and more usage as of late and it is ridiculously hard to switch into consistently if you lack one of a select few Pokemon, all of which are usually reserved for stall. Given this and more people integrating it onto their structures, it deserves a rise.
• Garchomp from B- to B+ -- Garchomp has become increasingly common as a Stealth Rock setter, especially with the rise of the Z-Stone Edge set. Rocky Helmet is also seeing a bit more usage on bulky offensive teams, so overall the rise in usage and substantial in-thread support warranted a significant bump in viability.
• Hydreigon from B- to B -- Hydreigon has been seeing more usage than before (albeit it saw 0 usage before) in recent months and with Metrenome and Z sets being viable, a small bump seemed appropriate, especially given the disucssion in the thread.
• Slowbro-Mega from C+ to B- -- Mega Slowbro is just a solid defensive answer that does exceedingly well against physically offensive heavy hyper offense and otherwise can be a viable pivot; it was underutilized prior to the last couple of months, so it was ranked too low, but it has likely always been a B rank caliber Pokemon.
• Slowbro from C- to C+ -- Similar to Mega Slowbro, but it has been a bit slower to catch on and it is obviously less bulky in return for having Leftovers and another Mega Evolution on the team it is being used on.
• Buzzwole from C- to C -- Honestly, a bit bias here seeing as I have used it twice in Snake and been the main advocate for its recent popularity. Regardless, it has a lot of niche on Stall and it is a viable balanced defensive presence, too, so it rose a little.
• Aggron-Mega from UR to C -- Another Pokemon that I am indeed a bit bias on here, but it is certainly viable on Stall teams and has been picking up in usage lately for sure, so it deserves to be ranked.
• Kyurem from UR to C -- Substitute + Roost Kyurem is a bit niche, but certainly has been picking up and absolutely destroys some teams, so it gets ranked, too.

Drops

• Tyranitar from A to A- -- Choice Banded Tyranitar has pretty much dropped off and Assault Vest Tyranitar has simply not been too common for a while now either, so it drops a bit here. With that said, it is still Tyranitar, so of course it should still be ranked decently, just not TOO highly.
• Pinsir-Mega from A- to B+ -- Mega Pinsir has fallen off a ton and is increasingly hard to use on consistent teams right now. It is still good in terms of how threatening it is and how it can sweep, but it is not used very much and that definitely matters here.
• Gyarados from A- to B+ -- Picked up on cheese during OLT and fell off since.
• Gyarados-Mega from B+ to B -- Picked up on cheese during OLT and fell off since.
• Gengar from B to B- -- No real usage of Gengar in serious contexts, so it definitely is falling off and should drop here.
• Latias from B- to C+ -- No real usage of Latias in serious contexts, so it definitely is falling off and should drop here.
• Latios from B- to C+ -- No real usage of Latios in serious contexts, so it definitely is falling off and should drop here.
• Ditto from C+ to C -- P2's team finally has stopped getting usage, so with that there are no longer any truly viable teams with Ditto seen around the metagame.
• Mantine from C+ to C -- Mantine fucking sucks.
• Marowak-Alola from C+ to C- -- Outside of a rogue Ciele team, Alolan Marowak has literally been completely absent from the OU metagame. Do not try saying Trick Room teams because they also are nonexistent.
• Zeraora from C to UR -- Zeraora fucking sucks.
• Altaria-Mega from C- to UR -- Altaria-Mega fucking sucks.
• Stakataka from C- to UR -- Stakatakatakatakatakataka fucking sucks.

Discussion points: Rises

• Greninja-Ash from A+ to S
• Mawile-Mega from A+ to S
• Chansey from A- to A
• Sableye-Mega from B+ to A-
• Diancie-Mega from B+ to A-
• Heracross-Mega from B to B+
• Charizard-Mega-Y from B- to B
• Blacephalon from B- to B
• Tapu Fini from B- to B
• Avalugg from C to C+
• Kommo-O from UR to C- (Replays are still needed!)

Discussion points: Drops

• Tornadus-Therian from A+ to A
• Volcanion from B- to C+
• Aerodactyl-Mega from C- to UR

Zygarde is unblacklisted for future discussion, specifically about a prospective rise to S, but it is not a discussion point as nobody voted for it to rise to S and we did not get a half-vote for it to drop. Crustle is unblacklisted for future discussion by Thunder Pwoell, but nobody else is allowed to.

 

[Dreadfury]

• Blacephalon from B- to B

Finch, blink twice if you're in danger. This ain't like you!

Alright. Jokes aside, here are some of my thoughts about some of the nominations (also, shoutouts to y'all for unblacklisting Zygarde; imma cook something spicy up in a few weeks):

Ash-Greninja to S: VERY SLIGHTLY Disagree

Make no mistake: this thing is fucking incredible. Wallbreaker, revenge killer, anti-offense threat that fits phenomenally well on rain teams, Spiker, the works. And Ice Beam sets becoming a little more prominent lets it break past some of its would-be counters a lot more easily, which is crucial because Bulu and Tangrowth are literally everywhere right now to the point where I'm almost never seeing a team without one or the other. But I still feel like Ash-Greninja is a tad one-dimensional even though that one set (well, maybe two sets) it has happens to be one of the forces that defines the metagame. I wouldn't consider it as splashable as Lando-T or Heatran and I'm leaning a bit towards it staying in A+ right now. But again, this doesn't mean I don't think Ash-Greninja is one of the most centralizing forces in the meta, because it most certainly is.

Mega Mawile to S: ...Kinda Agree

I'd argue that this is definitely over the edge compared to Ash-Greninja, even though it's strictly an offensive threat as well: it combines a great defensive typing with several crucial immunities and resists, a great pre-Mega ability, and non-negligible bulk with a downright ludicrous movepool and a monstrous Attack stat to break literally anything, period. Focus Punch/Brick Break bops Heatran, Sucker Punch forces opponents into a nasty 50/50 situation and gives offensive teams hell, Thunder Punch reams Celesteela and Pex, Fire Fang reams Scizor, and its STABs aren't anything to scoff at either. Mawile can pick and choose whatever the hell it wants to beat with its four moveslots and you most likely won't know what options it's opting to run until it claims something's life anyway. I'm still a bit iffy about this one compared to Heatran and Landorus-T and even Zygarde, but if anything should go to S between it and Ash-Greninja it should most certainly be this behemoth.

Chansey to A-: Somewhat Disagree... but Mega Sableye to A-: Strongly Agree

I'm not sure if I'm completely sold on Chansey rising up to A, but I definitely agree that Mega Sableye should rise a subrank. Both are Stall staples and both tend to see some use outside of their dedicated archetypes from time to time, but I'd argue that these two Stall staples should be ranked identically for the time being, although I'm not necessarily opposed to a Chansey rise to A. Moreover, Mega Sableye makes for Volcarona's best partner, and Volcarona is becoming a significantly stronger threat now. Y'all should try out the CM+Mean Look set I tried meming with earlier since it's actually kinda clean in practice every now and again, too, although it's obviously not what MSab is known for.

Mega Diancie from B+ to A-: Agree

Turns out Protect is pretty amazing on this after all. Mega Diancie is a little underprepared for, in my opinion, and that's what makes it so incredibly deadly. There are entire teams that can only avoid getting bodied by this thing by manipulating the very RNG of the game itself to strategically dodge Diamond Storm (cough Omari cough), and it still has plenty of other options it can run to deal with offense, balance, and stall should one want to run Rock Polish or CM, although I'd say Protect is best for now and most would be inclined to agree.

Tapu Fini from B- to... anywhere higher tbh: Agree

Good Defogger. Not passive. Provides status immunity for several turns. Can chip away at Stall super well. Good defensive typing. Can lure, trap, and kill Pex in a massive turn of events, letting it support Volcarona decently well. Fini offers quite a bit more to teams than many of us initially gave it credit for and I don't think I'd be very opposed to seeing it rise up a bit.

Mega Zard Y from B- to B: Agree

I'm gonna resist the urge to make a Finch vs. Omari joke again, but I genuinely think Zard Y is massively underappreciated and underrated at the moment. It tends to be a massive pain to switch in on and that ultimately leaves many of its best counters relegated to fatter teams that it's still very, very capable of wallbreaking past. It's solid despite its shortcomings by virtue of its bad typing and a rise to B doesn't seem too unreasonable.

Mega Heracross from B to B+: Strongly Agree

Fat stuff go up, big bug go up too. Mega Heracross doesn't have too terribly much trouble demolishing Stall right from the word go and its counters are limited to a very, very select few things that aren't even run on all Stall variants. Gliscor variants on Stall sometimes run Wing Attack for this thing alone because it's that terrifying.

Blacephalon from B- to B: Strongly Agree

Its offensive typing isn't the best, but it really appreciates Tyranitar's decline. Although I'd still argue Gengar has a few things worth using it for over Blacephalon, I personally think Blacephalon is better by a decent enough margin at this point. Despite its inability to hit a select few prominent threats, it has quite a diverse movepool and a stat spread that really lets it shine in some aspects, such as a Speed Boosting Sub+CM set, typical Specs/Scarf sets, etc. I don't think B is too unreasonable for it, but I also don't think Finch made this nom.

Avalugg from C to C+: Strongly Agree

This iceberg is one of the few things in the tier that can get in Zygarde's way and sink it so consistently and I still firmly believe Zygarde is an extraordinarily powerful threat even if some may argue it isn't worthy of S yet. Plus, it's not half-bad as a spinner for the fat teams it fits on.

Tornadus-Therian from A+ to A: Very, Very Strongly Disagree

This thing benefits greatly from the rise in popularity of Tangrowth in two senses: it has another target it can deal some nasty damage to, and it has a fantastic teammate to pivot around with since they form such a downright brutal Regenerator core. While I don't think it's as incredible as it once was, it's still arguably one of the best offensive pivots in the tier, and arguably one of the best Defoggers in the tier too (if not the best Defogger). I can't say I fully understand why it's being nominated for a drop when it still breaks what it needs to, Knocks what it needs to, and gets rid of Stealth Rocks as it always should.

Not gonna comment on Volcanion or Mega Aerodactyl since I haven't used them enough but I'd argue there are a hundred and one megas I could use in this tier that are better than Mega Aerodactyl so I don't think I'd be too opposed to unranking that shit. Also don't have any replays for Kommo-o so I'm gonna stay away from that one.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

yall still some hoes for not ranking hoopa, however the crustle nom will be up by the end of the day today. I have a test and an interview and a demo irl but Im getting it out for the fans. Now back to my studying. also thanks for being a good sport Finch. And Leo, your ass is next, i said ur ass was grass after the finch fight and i plan to keep my word. Next friday its going down and im brining alolan sandslash. bet

 

[Katy]

Mega Mawile from A+ to S = Agree

Mega Mawile is terryfing to face currently, since most Lando-Ts are Bulky-Scarf and locked into Defog or Hidden Power Ice, this Monster is able to come in on it and Swords Dance up to get a +2 on Top of it's already very good Attack stat with Huge Power. Sucker Punch has to be outplayed in 50/50 Mindgames and Knock Off is really strong on this Mon same with Play Rough, BUT it also gains the necessary Coverage-Options like Thunder Punch, Fire Fang and also Su + Focus Punch, which can heavily Damage Toxapex, Ferrothorn/Mega Scizor and Heatran. It is also not a bad Stealth Rocker tbh. The Scouting is the tru' Pain, you never know, which Mawile-Mega Set you are facing 'til it shows all of its Attacks.
I completly Agree on a Rise to S.

Greninja-Ash from A+ to S = on the fence tho

Ash-Greninja is a really powerful Z-Move and Choice Specs User, which profits from a high SpAtt Stat and it's high natural speed, but the increase of bulky more Specially Defensive oriented Grass Types like Tapu Bulu, AV Tangrowth and also Ferrothorn enables it to break thru, until this threats are weakned enough to clean up with Pumps or DPulses.
In this case, Im on the fence, since Ash-Greninja is so good after it Battled Bonded, but still it gets slightly hurt by the high presence of bulky grass types.

Avalugg C to C+ = YES

It's a sample on Stall teams nowadays, can Spin + Recover and is one of the few things which can take care of Zygarde.

Tornadus-Therian from A+ to A = Disagree

Imo nothing really changed for Tornadus-Therian to drop a Subrank, It still does what it does to a very good level. Defog + U-Turn is really good on it due to it's powerful Ability Regenerator. Rocky Helmet sets with Lure Attacks Like Focus Blast / Superpower or Heat Wave for (Mega) Tar and Kartana / Ferrothorn seeing recently some Usage. Also Z-Focus Blast to lure in the Bulky Rock/Dark Godzilla increases alot, so it is able to get past it's check.
Taunt and Knock off are still viable Options too.

 

[Jordy]

→A
I don't understand why this keeps being brought up because Tornadus-T is the best, most splashable Defog user in the tier, and literally nothing has really changed against it to make it worse. If anything, Tornadus-T is even better now with the decline of Tapu Koko.

→A-
While Clefable is undeniably still a good Pokemon, I think it's out of place in A rank. Clefable usage has plummeted, it is definitely not the balance staple it used to be, and the metagame only keeps taking advantage of it with the increasing popularity of Pokemon like Volcarona and Mega Mawile. Other Pokemon like Toxapex, Heatran, and Magearna are also everywhere, and really just make Clefable struggle to do its job effectively.

→C-
Uxie and Cresselia are just as bad as Alolan Marowak.

Other noms I agree with

→S

→A-

→B+

→UR

 

[xapx]

Thanks Finch for the post and congrats suapah! Just my thoughts on the given discussion points:
(I made them hide tags so it won't be super freaking long)

Discussion points: Rises

Greninja-Ash from A+ to S Agree

Ash-G

I think Ash Greninja has the potential to rise to S with its terrifying power and STAB, but the prevalence of Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Fini, Ferrothorn and Toxapex (Chansey as well, but that's not as common) usually still keep it in check. Now Ice Beam has seen usage on Ash-G due to its ability to hit Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu for a lot of damage, but it's still unable to hit Fini and Pex for much, and all it can do against Pex is flinching it with Dark Pulse. However, since Fini has basically 0 recovery aside from Lefties and Pex is easily haxed away, I think Ash-Greninja deserves the S rank.

Mawile-Mega from A+ to S Don't really agree

Mega Mawile

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...y-ranking-thread.3621329/page-63#post-7906378 (me)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-ou-ultra-viability-ranking-thread.3621329/post-7908441 (Gross Sweep)

Chansey from A- to A Stay at A-

Chansey

Chansey is the well-known fat blob with an egg. Although p2's Ghost Town team isn't really adapted to the new meta, Chansey offense still sees quite a lot of usage (at least in mid-ladder) and it's still a really good special wall. Even though it's able to take on most special attackers (Volcarona Ash-Greninja non-Psyshock Lele Magearna Charizard Y), Heatran can beat it with Magma Storm + Taunt (+ Toxic or EP drops), Calm Mind Alakazam can beat it 1v1 prior to Mega Evolution, Tapu Koko can surprise it with Z-Wild Charge, Tapu Lele runs Specs Psyshock commonly and Tornadus running Knock Off really makes this blob struggle. Chansey also lets in Kart or Bulu and gets surprised by Protean Greninja, and letting these weaken the team isn't a good thing. I think Chansey is perfectly fine at A- and should stay there.

Sableye-Mega from B+ to A- Not sure
I suck at using stall and haven't used Mega Sableye since SM. All I know is Mega Sableye is always the first one dead when I fight it.

Diancie-Mega from B+ to A- Yea definitely

Mega Diancie

Mega Diancie was one of the best mons in ORAS, dropped in SM, went to BL in USM and came back as a pretty good Rocker who can beat common Defoggers such as Torn Zap and weakening the likes of Landorus and Gliscor. Its bulk is also pretty good prior to mega evolution, allowing it to take a hit and do decent damage when not mega evolved. I think it's ability to set up rocks rather consistently against Balance teams and the ability to threaten stall to a certain degree gives it a reason to rise to A-

Heracross-Mega from B to B+ Why is this a discussion point? B+

Mega Heracross

Mega Heracross's ability to take on stall and balance, as well as being able to nearly getting a kill or seriously weakening something when it comes in makes this a pretty good mon. The Substitute set is also pretty good, easing prediction and allowing it to set up SD safely. Overall this is a solid mon when it comes to the current meta and I think it definitely should be B+

Charizard-Mega-Y from B- to B Ooh yes B

Mega Charizard Y

This mon dropped with Duggy was banned, but it's always been going between the B ranks. Tbh even though this Pokemon is pretty frail on the physical side and 4x weakness to rocks is pretty bad, it's a really good mon because it can threaten like every single S and A+ mon on the VR rn and takes like 80% max from non-evolved Ash-Greninja and has a 62.5% to live hydro from specs ash-gren (although that probably isn't the best case scenario, it's a chance you have to take if that's your only current wincon). With its typing Zard Y can take on Kart as well, being resistant to Leaf Blade and Smart Strike and able to Roost off any damage. The only problem is that missing FBs can be really annoying and hazard removal is mandatory, but otherwise B is definitely where it fits.

Blacephalon from B- to B Very much agree

Finchinator is allowing Blace to rise!?!?!?

Blace is a really good mon on offense, speed-tieing with Kart and basically sweeping teams easily. With Specs, it hits like a truck; with Scarf, it hits not as hard but it is a pretty good late game sweeper; Calm Mind Speed boosting is extremely good on HO imo, you can set it up easily and sweep, although you have to make sure like Gren and Ttar are gone. It's unpredictability with these 3 sets put people on their edge of the seats and really applies pressure onto opposing team. Its less solid checks like Heatran is easily chipped, Gastrodon just allows in other mons, and Mantine is bad (unless you're using Imbadbuturworse's RMT).

Tapu Fini from B- to B Not really...?

Tapu Fini

Tapu Fini is a pretty good check to Ash-Greninja, and able to take any hit from full health. Its whirlpool set can trap and eliminate Chansey, while its Water/Fairy typing allows it to check the likes of Heatran, non-Giga Drain Volc, Mega Medicham and Hawlucha. However, Tapu Fini has virtually no recovery because it relies heavily on its Leftovers, which is often knocked off against more balanced teams or does not provide enough recovery against more offensive teams. It's a defogger that Mega Diancie can't beat 1v1 at max, but it's just so bad at doing its job. I think it should stay B-, which is what its capabilities are at.

No comment on either since I don't use them

Discussion points: Drops
Tornadus-Therian from A+ to A Just no

Tornadus-T

No, Torn-T is still one of the most consistent defoggers in the tier, is a good offensive check to Serperior and Kartana and able to threaten Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu. It's Fightinium Z sets can deal with Heatran/Tyranitar, its supposed-to-be checks, Knock Off gets rid of important items like Eviolite or Lefties or AV, and U-turn gains a lot of momentum. What I think is the best about this mon is its speed tier, allowing it to outspeed quite a lot of the tier, most importantly Kartana Lati@s Serperior and Mega Medicham. It's also able to Taunt and be a semi-stallbreaker. No it still doesn't deserve the drop.

I don't really use Volcanion

Aerodactyl-Mega from C- to UR

Mega Aerodactyl

This one is a bit conflicted for me. For someone who really enjoys using MAero, I think its 4 Attacks, 3 Attacks + Roost and Hone Claws sets are all viable and pretty hard to play around actually. Recently I really enjoyed using one of A's teams (curse A I can't tag him) featuring MAero and SubZ Magnezone, and it was one of the best teams I'd ever ladder with, with Mega Aerodactyl doing a lot of work. Its coverage is also pretty much unresisted in OU, Ice Fang for Zyg Glisc Lando, Stone Edge for Zap Torn Volc Zard, EQ for Zard Tran Mawile and Aerial Ace for Tangrowth and Bulu. It's a pretty damn good mon, and still deserves a C- in the OU tier.

No I don't have a nom currently, just my thoughts here :[

 

[lydian]

I’ll leave my thoughts on the current discussion points:

to S: Agree

to S: Agree
Grouping these two together because they’re mostly in that same limbo of being better than most stuff in A+. I agree that neither is quite on the level of Heatran and Landorus-T, but with A+ getting so crowded, I feel like both are leaning more towards S each in their own way. Ash-Greninja has always been a powerful threat and bug strain on teambuilding, and it’s honestly an excellent pick that stood the test of time and attested its dominance. With Offense getting some traction as of late, it becomes clear how menacing this Pokémon is, so even though not all that much has changed for it, I feel like it’s still deserving of the S rank spot. Mega Mawile has only been getting better lately and its ability to power through nearly any defensive check lets it be a deadly wallbreaker that you can just slap on teams and it massively improves your matchup against fat teams. This Pokémon is truly an excellent pick and a driving force on the current metagame so I believe it’s more leaning towards S than it is to A+, just like Ash-Greninja.

to A: Agree

to A-: Agree
With stall gaining some traction as of late and the C rank goons rising, it sounds only fair to raise Chansey and Mega Sableye too. They are the faces of a metagame that is very solid right now so I think a rise is definitely a smart move. Stall, despite not being used that often, has had excellent results in recent tournaments.

to A-: Disagree
While Mega Diancie has shown some of its value now with Protect and establishing itself as a solid rocker, I still think putting it in A- would be overshooting it a bit, at least for now. It’s still not as strongbas you’d want and it almost kind of suffers some 4MSS because you really want Moonblast, Stealth Rock, Protect, Diamond Storm, and Earth Power all at the same time, and lets face it, it’s often not as strong as you’d want it to. All in all, in spite of its newfound values, I believe its flaws still hold it back from A-.

to B+: Agree
This is probably the nomination I agree the most with, Mega Heracross has some great role compression but not in the sense you’d usually think. I know I already covered it on my latest post but I still want to reenforce this. First and Foremost, Mega Heracross is just a deadly wallbreaker, there’s no such thing as a safe switch in for Mega Heracross, period. It’s just an extremely effective wallbreaker and stallbreaker and a B placement really doesn’t reflect this. On another hand, it also has some great defensive value, soft checking Zygarde, Kartana, Tapu Bulu etc, which also gives it a lot of opportunities to come in on the aforementioned Pokémon as well as the ever-common Tangrowth. All in all, I really think Mega Heracross deserves a spot in B+, at least.

to B: Disagree

to B: Disagree
These two Fire-types have had a bit of a rocky past, and are gaining some merit as of late, but I still believe rising them right now isn’t quite ideal, both are really matchup based, and while they do strike down unprepared teams Mega Charizard Y just crumbles to any team with Toxapex, Mega Latios, Mega Latias, and AV Tyranitar. Blacephalon also hates Toxapex and Tyranitar and both of its main sets (Specs and Speed Boost) have several flaws that hold it back a bit. I think B- is still the more reasonable placement for them.

to B: Agree
This thing is actually pretty decent, Tapu Fini gives no fucks to Heatran and Ash-Greninja and Defogs their hazards away without any issues. While it’s a bit tricky to fit on teams with some other Water-types giving it stiff competition, it still finds itself a spot on a couple teams and makes for a decent pick, in my eyes, decent enough for B rank.

to C+: Agree
Avalugg is actually pretty good on Stall and it takes care of Mega Mawile, Zygarde, and some Kyurem-B variants. A rise would help establish a bit of its viability on stall and I really think Avalugg earns it.

to C-: Agree
And lastly, to cap off the rises discussion is Kommo-o. I might be a bit biased here because I love the clanger, but it’s actually a cool pick on stall, covering Tyranitar, Blacephalon, Ash-Greninja, Tapu Bulu, and a couple other threats to some extent with Wish support. We saw it in Snake and I honestly feel like C- seems kind of reasonable, actually.

to A: Disagree
Yeah, Tornadus-T is still an amazing Defogger and really easy to just slap on teams and call it a day. It’s not one of the best in A+ but it should still remain there because it’s a pretty solid choice still.

to C+: Agree
It still annoys CelePex-Grass archetypes, but I find Volcanion a bit inconsistent of a wallbreaker in all honesty. Nearly any balance that isn’t the typical CelePex-Grass type of team kind of handles Volcanion, really, and even some CelePex-Grass archetypes don’t mind it too much, with potentially picks like the Eon Duo. I just don’t think it quite stands up to B- levels, really.

to UR: Agree
And to conclude this post, I completely agree with this one, this thing had a niche up until the point Heatran started running Flash Cannon and Lava Plume more often, but now, specially with Mega Alakazam running Timid again, thus Mega Aerodactyl not outspeeding everytime, I just don’t find this worth it really.

 

[MANNAT]

Can we please stop using “this rank is getting crowded” as a fucking argument? I get that it’s aesthetically pleasing to have mons more equally distributed between ranks but if something isn’t on the level of everything else in S rank, then it shouldn’t be moved up there. This argument irritates me more than the one liners that are just like “this mon is good yeah” because more often than not it actually comes from decent posters and ends up being misleading. Anyways... I just wanted to comment on the 2 potential S-rank noms and maybe add more thoughts later.

I think Ash Greninja is easily one of the best if not the best offensive Pokémon in the tier, being able to easily open up situations where it can just mow down a weakened team late-game, and I certainly wouldn’t mind it being S with how fucking consistent it is, but the one thing that’s holding me back is that it’s lack of versatility compared to the other two S-ranks is a huge negative for it. In terms of recent trends, more people are using AV Magearna + secondary check as their Gren answers on bulky offense instead of the always irritating AV Tapu Bulu, so it’s a but easier for Gren to break through some of these teams. I’ve seen a lot of teams with very shaky dark resists and a defensive core of like Tang + Pex as well, so it’s really easy for Gren to overwhelm these builds if you play intelligently and get hazards up early. Like I said, I wouldn’t be opposed to seeing Gren move up because it’s what I think is the most consistent late-game win condition in the tier (yes even more than Magearna), but I can definitely see the downsides to using it.

On the other hand, I just think not enough has changed for Mawile to warrant it moving up to S-rank and while there’s seldom a game where it truly does nothing, it still doesn’t truly have the consistency of Gren or its ability to support the rest of its team (Spikes), so I’m gonna say no to a Mawile rise on the basis that team structures haven’t changed enough in this metagame to favor it. If anything, teams are more prepared for Mega Mawile than they were before, with mons like bulky QD Volcarona and Mega Aggron gaining usage aside from Heatran and Lando being as common as always. Obviously, Mega Mawile is still a top Pokemon in this metagame, I just don't think it's good enough for S right now.

 

[BlueLobster]

Greninja-Ash from A+ to S: Disagree. While one of the biggest threats in the meta, I feel it is way too one dimensional to fit in with the S rank mons. It runs at most 5 different moves (and let's be real, no one uses ice beam > spikes so idk why I'm counting it) provides no real team support beyond spikes due to lack of any defensive utility, while the S ranks all provide way more support as well as having great offensive capabilities and have a wider variety of sets leading to some level of unpredictability. I don't really see how gren matches up to this.

Mawile-Mega from A+ to S: Disagree for mainly the same reason as above. While this thing is good at blowing holes in teams, it doesn't do much else. I guess at a stretch you can say it kinda checks shit like kartana in desparate situations but you're not gonna look at your team and go "oh yeah mawile checks kart so I'm fine" so again it doesn't really have the defensive utility. Another problem I have with maw is its really fucking slow and sucker punch doesn't make up for that V lele teams, although that's just me kinda being biased against mmaw in general. It's a good mon ofc, and can blow holes if you get it in to a good situation due to a lack of any good switchins to it, but it has too many flaws and too little versatility to be S imo.

Tapu Fini from B- to B: Agreed. I really like fini due to how good it is at patching up whatever issue your team has, providing a gren check, tran check, stallbreaker, lucha check (ik this isn't a top threat anymore but it's still 6-0ing if you aren't prepared), defogger and also brings misty terrain support which is really nice for balance/BO as well. It's really undersold in its current rank for a mon with the level of versatility fini has, especially since it checks 2 of the biggest threats in the meta (and also helps V zyg, although I wouldn't call it a check since it can't switch in repeatedly).

Kommo-O from UR to C-: Agreed. Between the z move and sub BD sets, this mon is scary enough to face to provide a reason to use it, and due to its good bulk has prominent set up targets such as kart/ash gren. tbh idk why this wasn't ranked a while back cause it really does deserve a rank and gained some legit usage during olt when everyone spammed cheese.

Tornadus-Therian from A+ to A: No way, why is this a discussion point? Easily the top fogger in the meta, as well as offering decent defensive utility as a kart check, ground immunity and having regen to be able to stay healthy throughout the game. It even can run superpower to lure tran and ttar, which is really nice for a lot of mons such as blacephalon.

Volcanion from B- to C+: Disagree, made a pretty big on this last slate so I'll edit that in rather than say it all again.

Yeah strong disagree on the Volcanion nom. I feel like it's a very underexplored and often overlooked when it's actually a really solid mon. I've had some success with AV volcanion, being a fabulous check to meta trends like Blacephalon and serp while also pressuring ash gren into using dpulse over hydro, taking pressure off checks like mage. It's also great V Volcarona and mzor. People don't really know how well you can adapt Volcanion for your needs, seeming to think all its good for is coming into pex with that sub set but it can actually do a whole lot more. It's definitely, as vss said, better than the garb like terrak in the C+ rank.

Talking of last slate, I nommed Aerodactyl to C- but sadly there was little discussion (probably cause my write up was kinda crap) so I'm going to do that again:

Aerodactyl to C-​

Aerodactyl @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unnerve
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock​

Aero is a really good lead in this meta, which I have been using a lot recently. It has a great speed tier, tying with Koko, allowing it to outspeed and taunt all opposing leads (bar screens electrode if you count that, with screens Koko being a tie), allowing you to prevent enemy rocks as well as set your own, which is great for if you have rocks weak sweepers (such as blace or gyara). It also threatens opposing foggers like torn t and zapdos with stone edge, and can provide tailwind support if necessary as well. Alternatively, EQ allows you to have a better matchup V lead excadrill. It has great matchups V nearly all opposing leads, struggling only with stall (it cant break msab without a crit). Let's look at its matchups V common leads/SR setters.

Lando: You can taunt it + get rocks, the standard set can't touch you so all they can do is either blow up (pointless) or swap and try to take advantage of aero, which is not really possible due to taunt.

Exca: you can taunt it, then take it out with EQ. Only struggles V rock tomb variants.

Tran: EQ kills this, if you're a tailwind variant you can taunt it + get rocks, if it went for rocks or taunt on your taunt you can also grab tailwind or get an edge off, and that's banking on it hitting both magmas.

Ribombee: You can taunt + get rocks and edge this, since it'll be too scared of mega to not click webs t1 so can't go for the moonblast (which 2hkos).

Araquanid: You have to outplay the magic coats. At best you kill it without it getting webs, the worst that can happen depends on how you play it out (clicking edge T1 has the least consequences unless them getting webs is an autoloss).

Screens Koko: Presuming you know it's screens, it's a tie for taunt. If you lose the tie, just spam EQ on it and there's a good chance you prevent it getting both screens up, and aero will be on full so it can get rocks V the next thing (taunting it will probably be necessary too since they're screens HO).

Mdiancie: EQ is a 2hko, so is edge if they mega t1, then you can rocks when it's dead.

To conclude, this thing has some great lead matchups, can get rocks really reliably and is great at preventing them too due to taunt. It's only flaws are stall and fake out MLop. I personally consider this to be a better lead than exca, and it's certainly better than Azelf who's sat in C-, and definitely deserves a rank.

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-820135880 - Got rocks + allowed me to know it was scarf gren, if tran hadve clicked rocks when it came back in would've almost certainly got another kill or at least some good chip
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-817817170 - Got rocks, prevented tspikes + some good chip on pex, stopped from spamming bulk up
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-816471443 - I choked by not taunting the Koko but it still killed it, got sr and prevented mage and zyg from setting up which would've been catastrophic
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-815934216 - Got rocks, prevents ttar from dding

Replays for the tailwind version on old nom, if you look for replays on GiantLobster or ChilledLobster there's loads of it doing it's job.

 

[Marigold]

Before going over the discussion slate, a nomination of my own. Nominating

A+ -> S

Fair warning, this is going to be a big nomination. I am going to nominate Zygarde up to S for the following reasons:

versatility

Zygarde is exceedingly versatile and each set it can run is potent. Consequently, it can adapt to near any metagame trend to always remain a top 3 threat.

Zygarde has a crazy number of sets. Rest, sub, policy, z-crystal, band, yache, dual dance berry, soft sand all come to mind, but each of these can have 2+ variations each. From this alone it's easy to see how Zygarde can get out of hand but... I'm sure this is just a point regurgitated for the millionth time and people don't care. So why did I bring it up again?

It's because no matter how the metagame changes, Zygarde will always have an S-class set that gives the metagame massive headaches. It started off with subcoil stallbreaker to crumble Duggy stall. Then it used to be dual dance berry shitting all over opposing fast offense teams. It shifted to dragonium during a Tangrowth-heavy meta. Then it was weakness policy to abuse all the piss-weak hp ices or moonblasts thrown at Zygarde. Dragon Tail became the wave to deal with curse/bulk-up users. And now, Glare is the wave to pressure the entire metagame.

Zygarde has always remained top tier and Zygarde always finds a way to stay top tier, just like how Lando and Heatran always find a way to stay S tier in the metagame.

it will still have some match-ups where it's only good for switching into a couple Magma Storms or cockblocking a HP Iceless Tapu Koko only to get hard-stopped on its own if it remains in

These days are over, recent tech discoveries in Glare allow Zygarde to be a cancerous threat in any matchup that isn't Avalugg stall. The fact that I even have to bring up Avalugg and people still dispute its S-class hold on the metagame is astounding, which leads to my next point...

centralizing

Zygarde dictates the metagame to search for scarce counterplay. And then it can beat, cripple, or strongly pressure already scarce counterplay.

Zygarde's many setup sets can utilize z-crystals, coverage, or toxic to deal with the small handful of defensive checks it may have (Clefable, Tangrowth, Bulu, Hippo, Lando-T, Slowbro, Avalugg). This does mean that Zygarde has to effectively "pick its counters", but having that leisure alone is a very strong case for an S tier. A pokemon doesn't have to be uncounterable or flawless to be S tier, it just needs to be a cut above the rest of the meta. In this case, Zygarde's ability to pick what it loses to is better than the majority of A+, and its other previously mentioned qualities combined with this one make for a set of traits that only Magearna (another S candidate but that's for another day) can make for a comparison to.

Special mention to the yellow color. Currently, glare is a really strong tool because it's free pressure vs all conventional Zygarde responses, even the "foolproof" ones that Finch brought up in a post long ago (Clefable is hardly a reliable answer by the way, a team with Clef as the sole anti-Zygarde measure is shaky vs the dragon at best). Not only does it destroy the scouting power of Scarf Lando-T, it enables stuff like Banded Glare Zygarde (imo its best set atm) to hax through Clefable/Hippo/Slowbro with STAB after glaring it, 1v1 an ice beam Mega Lati later in the game, allow a partner such as Ash Gren to paraflinch through a Tangrowth/Bulu in the lategame, enable a second slower breaker (like Mawile or Heracross) to claim kills even more easily, or just allow luck in general to turn the tables later on.

Overall, Zygarde's described versatility and centralization put it on par with Lando-T and Heatran. It will always have a set that runs circles around the metagame, it can pick its answers just like how Lando and Heatran do, and it does all this better than A+ tier threats.

Now for a bit of the discussion slate.

A+ -> S: Agree

Ash Gren

Ash Greninja should rise to S but not for the reasons of Zygarde, Lando, or Heatran. Versatility is not a requirement to be extremely influential in the metagame (which is what the S tier is at the end of the day, the most influential pokemon), but it certainly helps and is one way to be an influential S threat. So why should Ash Gren be considered for S?

What it trades in versatility on its own, it makes up for in being twice as centralizing. Outside of an even smaller handful of counterplay than Zygarde, Ash Greninja forces the game to be played quite differently and is a huge momentum swinger. It can set up its own job on par with Zygarde courtesy of spikes, I have literally outplayed Gastrodon + AV Tangrowth teams and winning with Ash Gren anyway by playing well and getting all the chip I need with hazards and toxic support. Granted, "outplaying" is not a reason for anything to rise or drop but the point is that the Ash Greninja user has an advantage and often pushes the tempo of the game, because the threat of transformation is much bigger than switching into somewhat passive threats. It's a huge reason that the metagame is bulky grass/water-heavy and despite that is one of the most consistent wincons out there, and S rank accurately represents its gap between it and the rest of A+ while on par with the consistency of other S tiers.

B- -> B: Agree

Blace

Outside of a TTar (which is declining a bit), Blace is eating the finest of ass in a matchup. Sub CM speedboost is nice as usual, but the discovery of sets like Knock Off Specs or speedboost Specs just make it harder to deal with vs fat/HO teams respectively. Its role as a high-risk, high-reward wallbreaker is at least Victini or Mamoswine level in B tier.

B- -> B: Agree

Fini

It should never have dropped this low in the first place, being the defogger with the best matchup against Ash Gren spikestack and having deceptive versatility with Whirlpool or Knock Off sets to eliminate/cripple key top threats. At least on par with Alomomola or Gastrodon, but I honestly think it can rise even higher.

UR -> C-: Agree

Kommo

About damn time this is being considered for ranking, it's found usage on many webs/screens teams with its useful set of resistances to set up on key threats, notably Ash Greninja/Blacephalon/Ferrothorn and more thanks to its abilities. Kommonium vs Drum Salac is a gamble to predict against, and guessing wrong can result in a big punish.

A+ -> A: Disagree

Torn

Still one of the most influential faces of bulky offense that is capable of facilitating gameplans while checking key threats like nobody's business, not sure what changed to warrant this nom but Torn is still doing Torn things. Having access to a lot of tech options means it can adapt to any meta trends too. Things like LO stallbreaker rising again on rain teams, Fightinium Z lure for Heatrans, or taunt bulky Torn to halt hazard setters/bulky setup are a testament to its flexibility, and I don't think it should drop anytime soon cause it's still just so good.

Anything not gone over indicates an indifferent stance.

 

[AnOriginStory]

Long time listener first time caller.

First some of the nominations:

Ash-Gren: A+ -> S agree. After battle bond specs has game breaking speed and power 2HKOing just about everything with either dark pulse or hydro pump. It's the first mon I prepare for when building a team. As for versatility, protean Greninja sets give it some unpredictability, and it can run scarf or z-crystal, but in this case I think the specs set's predominance is actually a point in its favor. Specs Ash-Greninja is so good that other very viable sets don't get run because they're outclassed. Simply put if it didn't need a ko to transform this thing would be banned already. The fact that a lot of team building goes into preventing it from transforming makes it very worthy of S rank.

Kommo: Unranked -> C- agree. Clangorous soulblaze is dangerous enough to warrant C- on its own. The fact it can run sub BD to surprise some people makes it deserving of being ranked. This thing is a threat and not directly outclassed by any OU mon.

Zygarde: A+->S disagree. Zygarde has severe 4MSS that prevents it from being truly game breaking in my opinion. It can coil, glare, DD, sub, thousand arrows, extremespeed, coverage. Without coverage bulky grass and fairies wall it to hell. Without extreme speed faster threats take it down. It's an ok dragon dancer but not fantastic. Glare spam is annoying but there plenty of bulky mons that don't mind paralysis that much, many of which check/wall zygarde. Versatility alone is not worthy of s-rank.

 

[The Hallows]

saw that heads are talking about my fave mon to use big ash greninja,
ash gren is without a doubt the most centralising mon in the tier, its p much single handedly invalidated water resists that dont take it on in sm, or at least if u use one of the water resists that dont take it on like slowbro for example, u need another one that does or u cant say u have a water resist.
i see ppl saying its one dimensional which is true but (imo) specs ash gren is the best individual set in the tier, functions as a breaker, hazard setter & is probably the best sweeper in the tier & definitely one of the most threatening to offense around & has some leeway on the 4th slot if u already have ferro for spikes w ice beam or surf as options or even uturn if u dont trust urself to predict & have some big breaker that threatens water resists in the back
my favourite thing about ash greninja as an avid user is that no matter the matchup it's never useless if you play it well, there's rarely a matchup that u cant just throw up spikes to make gren become ultra threatening later, but in the rare case tht there's no way to break through the ops team with ur stabs, u can just throw up those spikes & make ur other mons have an easier time breaking & then probably sweep with ash gren later when everything is broken down
no one mon bar tapu fini can stop an ash gren cold, and fini itself is fairly easy to weaken, anything else & u need 2 or more checks or ur gunna get overwhelmed p easily late game. This is similar to heatran another S, & zyg which shuld be S, in that u always need 2 or more checks & even if u have 2 or more u can never have enough countermeasure for it, its just that good.
the thing that I think holds it back is that aside from being a 1 time switch in to heatran, greninja is fairy difficult to switch in & out on ur terms throughout a game due to its bulk & aswell as this if u spike on a predicted switch & get called on it, ur most likely losing ur gren, altho its super hard in most situations to warrant calling a spiking greninja as if u get it wrong ur facing an evolved gren which is nuts to deal with early on in a game
i think gren is without a doubt the best mon in a+.
I definitely dont think its on the level of heatran or lando but id agree with it to S bc i think its so much better than anything else in a+ bar zyg & it should show in the ranking.

PS. garchomp didnt rise enough, it's versatile as fuck & it's better than everything in the same rank & most of the shit in a-, torn dropping would be gargantuan L

 

[Archer Kirby]

Shedinja: UR to C-

My first nomination and also kinda overdue, I feel Shedinja has a clear niche on stall teams in this current meta. Shedinja is able to wall threats that stall struggles with such as Manaphy, especially in rain, but also wall out other common threats such as Mega-Medicham, Zygarde and offensive Magearna. Due to the absurd amount of team support it requires to prevent hazards (basically making the team around it, not with it) in addition to good trappers like Tyranitar making it unusable in battles, I don't see this mon ever getting much higher, but it does have a clear niche on stall teams and being immune to damage rather then just taking the hits means it can forever wall those mons instead of other walls lacking regen that can be worn down by switching into repeated volt switches or uturns and forced out immediately.

There are some replays below but since most of you don't want to watch a long number of turns (which is understandable) I'll post a brief summary of what Shedinja did in each replay. (Sorry for not providing more/better replays, but once people realise Shedinja hard walls they just never switch in said pokemon for the rest of the game making it hard to get good replays)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-823530324 In this replay, Shedinja walls both his pivot Tapu-Koko to stop momentum and his setup user Zygarde which could have potentially haxed through my unaware user with Glare.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-822747554 A balance team, and Shedinja walls Tapu-Fini which can be annoying for stall with Taunt + Nature Madness.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-824038921 Once again Shedinja walls a Tapu-Koko to prevent it from pivoting and stops his Mega Lopunny from doing anything all game.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

LETS FUCKING GO BITCHES. YOU KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS! YOU GOTTA 100 DOLLA BILL PUT YA HANDS UP! YOU GOTTA 50 DOLLA BILL PUT YOUR HANDS UP! OH OH OH OH OH OH!

Well well well, yall haters and neanderthals thought it couldnt be done, thought that the crab was just a joke, then got ya asses swept by it with ur only counter play being the broken ass ash gren.... ya thought LANDO T WAS DOING SOMETHING HELL NO. CAN I GET WOOT WOOT! Little did you know this crab was only of only 2 mons to do what it can do and it was a set discovered by Stef Bryant and myself. Shoutout to Stef, he's really the only reason im still around, that and starry and sed. Fuck ya the crab is free. Now onto the actual substance.
I AM NOMMING THE SAUCE GAWD, AKA THE MEAN MACHINE, AKA THE WATER RESIST AKA THE SHIT: Crustle to go from UR -> C+

HP: 70

Attack: 105

Defense: 125

Sp. Atk: 65

Sp. Def: 75

Speed: 45
​

Intro: In the game that is pokemon, the developers try to make a lot of mons unique in some sort of way, if not obscure way. Crustle has always been looked down upon as one of those mons. It gets shell smash but its slow as dirt, it's specially weak as fuck and has a terrible second typing in bug (but great one). Trust me I get it, you'd overlook this mon and not actually try shit out. TRUST ME I know how lazy you people are. It's hard out here being heat but it is fucking Rewarding lemme tell you. HOWEVER, crustle has proven to me to be a huge asset. For example, it is one of 2 mons to get rock wrecker, and the only one to get shell smash and rock wrecker. Pair that with weak armor and high ass defense, you got urself a1 turn x3 speed x2 attack and 150bp move and 200+bp z move. GOOD GAWD z rock wrecker does so fucking much lmaoooo omfg like dude..... thi shit is okoing on resisted hits lol . EVERYTHING drops minus shit like ferro and even then it's taking like 70% lmao. ill take that shit. For those that don't know, rock wrecker is a 150 bp rock move... anyway it's not hard to see why it can be threatening. Now onto when it is.

the set I used
Sauce Gawd (Crustle) @ Rockium Z
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Rock Wrecker
- Earthquake
- X-Scissor

How to use: Going to be honest here, it took some work to understand how to use crustle, but oh boy when I got it lmaoooooo Alright now what you want to do is set up on a non special attacking mon. The crus has a lot of def and a very good typing defensively. funnily enough with weak armor u actually set up on lando lmaoooooo and its the absolute best bc u oko lando at +1. After that u fucking go in. Z rock wrecker is damn near killing the ENTIRE metagame and if u run max speed ur actually quite strong enough to oko shit by yourself. And if u used up ur z dont worry lmao.if u set up with the king crab, at LEAST 2 shits are dropping. the only thing u need to worry about is zygarde and ash gren. but like TBH if ur afraid of zygarde lmaooooo real life u can run hp ice (instead of the bug coverage which u barely use anyway) roooooootttffllll shell smash is fucking amazing omg. u also can and prob should run +speed but like eh. EHHHHH ( i ran +speed on ladder).

What else could you use: Hoopa C, hoopa u, minior but they all are diff.
Calcs: Anything thats not ferrothorn ... >100% to z rock wrecker. at +2 its wall breaking potential is godly

Replays:
v. finch - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-822361481
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-818899449
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-817072720
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-818273416
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-817836139
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-818684787
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-816253757
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-817905129
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-817841289
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-818840869
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-818340849
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-817454894


Now ..... can i get a what what. what what #MOUGA #FreeOmariP the ou mods are afraid of me. Im too powerful and so is the crab no matter what people like AM or Gary will say. hating ass mofos smh. they hate to see me shinin

P.s. on ladder people get big mad when they lose to crustle lmao heres a good example of it