That's enough nitpicky talk about what defensive utility is and Pheromosa, a Pokemon that isn't even in the tier. Let's stick to the discussion points and answer posts in completion, thanks
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Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Finchinator
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I can kind of agree with manaphy bc nobody runs energy ball and blacephalon if ur at full but calling gren a "soft switch-in" to half of these is seriously pushing it. Even ignoring bloom doom, heatran can drop gren with z-magma after 2 rounds of rocks; Kyu-b and victini can fusion bolt; hoopa can use fighting coverage; CB weavile literally outspeeds and 2hkos with crash after rocks if ur not evolved.
The way you mention "It's typing lets it hard check a lot annoying things that rely on priority moves (mawile, scizor, weavile)" makes it seem like ash-gren is your "hard check" to scizor weavile maw which is kinda silly, it can definitely revenge kill but its not able to switch-in to these pokemon and relies on hydro to 1v1. Hell, if its cb weavile vs unevolved specs ash gren, cb weav outspeeds, knocks off specs, lives hydro, and kills with the next knock off with rocks up. Mega Mawile sucker punch at +2 also can kill gren after rocks+spikes, so if you try to hydro to kill you get sucker'd, and if you try to shuriken to dodge the sucker you might just get play rough'd instead. So ash gren isn't really 100% reliable there either. I think offensive pressure would be the more correct term to describe what ash gren applies here, not really being a "hard check."
As far as ash gren going to S at all, i support keeping it at A+ for all the reasons BlueLobster mentioned: whatever kind of remarkable defensive utility you want to pretend ash gren has, it completely pales in comparison to current S rank members like Lando-t and Heatran. It doesn't have the raw wallbreaking power that z-move sets of lando-t and heatran can either, it instead has to rely on spikes and hard switching out to rack up chip damage on checks like tapu bulu and tangrowth that have ample sources of passive recovery, and has to rely on offensive pressure+outplaying to actually keep those hazards up to do their job. I think Ash gren is a self-sufficient threat but its nowhere as independent as lando-t and heatran.
The points you mentioned about difficulty transforming and how prediction-reliant specs can be sometimes and everything else is more valid reason to keep it A+
My Thoughts on the Current Talking Points:
Charizard Y: B- to B: Agree
I know I’ve mentioned this thing should rise a million times before and I’m glad it’s finally a discussion point for rising. Charizard Y loves the increase in balances lacking the Eon Twins as balance is this thing’s best matchup as not very much can outspeed and or threaten it in any significant way. Also, its coverage of Fire/Grass/Fighting is hard to switch into without Toxapex or the Eon Duo and roost makes balance’s typical attckers not do enough. Grasses like Bulu and Tang are the best they have ever been right now and having a mon that can switch into them confortably and threaten them very hard offensively is a very nice niche. And finally, hazard control has never been easier to incorperate on to teams which is a huge deal when building with this thing. Some of its best hazard control partners in my experience are z fight defog Torn and Excadrill. It’s even been seeing some tour usage, which shows it’s a legitmately good mon.
Tapu Fini: B- to B: Agree
I really like this thing as bulky defogger rn. It likes the influx in stall as its whirlpool+taunt+natures madness set can do very well in stall matchups. It serves as a nice sponge for many threats including Ash Greninja, Heatran, Hereacross, and Hawlucha. Defog really sets Fini apart from other Bulky waters like Toxapex as well as having a status immunity which works for the rest of it’s team. It’s lack of recovery is really annoying and sets it back a bit but with leftovers and it’s bulk, this shouldn’t be the biggest issue ever. Plus, it doesn’t suck like Mantine.
Avallug: C to C+: Disagree
With Mega Herracross (which I’ll cover later) being bigger as a stallbreaker and destroying this thing as well as slightly less Zygarde make this thing not worth a rise to me. Plus, stall has many great walling options as it is. And while Avallug’s niche as the best Zygarde counter in the game is quite notable, it doesn’t warrent it a rise imo given it’s other issues like a Heatran vulnerability and being deadweight vs a team with Herracross or special Hoopa as the breaker.
Kommo-O: UR to C-: Agree
I’ll agree that Kommo-O is a pretty ok offensive threats with some variety in 2 sets being Z move and BD Sub Salac. It likes Ash Gren being so common as it can set up on it as well as passive shit that can’t touch it like Tangrowth or Bulu. It was also used a little while ago by Loppuny Kicks to reach 1900 during OLT (ik that was a while ago but the point still stands).
Chansey: A- to A: Agree
With stall becoming better, Chansey is of course getting better. With the current meta so littered with special threats like Ash Gren, Tapu Koko, and Mega Alakazam. There really isn’t too much to say about Chansey, just as stall gets better, so does it, cause it’s home is stall (except Chansey offense).
Ash Greninja: A+ to S: Disagree
I was in the same stance the last time this was a discussion point. While Ash Greninja is an amazing pokemon that brings so much to offensive teams, there’s a few things keeping it out of S for me. For one thing, compare to Heatran or Lando, Ash Gren is much more basic and one-dimentional, and while this doesn’t make a mon not S worthy alone, it plays a role. For another thing, it’s checks and counters are still very good with Bulu and Toxapex in particular being great examples. it can spike on the switch to these 2, it doesn’t make it possible to beat them necessarily. Ash Gren also hates stall coming back as a relatively popular style as it can’t break stall. Amazing mon, just not S worthy imo.
Mega Mawile: A+ to S: Disagree
Similar reasoning to Ash Greninja, while an amazing mon and rarely being deadweight in a battle, Mawile doesn’t deserve S imo. For one, Mawile is also pretty limited in terms of set variety and can often face issues of what moves to run. It also must rely on sucker punch for sweeps which isn’t reliable to say the least. And lastly, it can’t break stall as well as before with the introduction of Aggron stall. Amazing mon but also doesn’t feel right in S imo.
Mega Diancie: B+ to A-: Disagree
Diancie has been showing it’s merits pretty well as of late after its dismissal and has proven to be a great rocker, especially vs stall, and protect helping it scout moves from lures or choice locked mons more often than not. Diancie also soft checks shit like Torn and counters stuff like Sableye. It also faces some annoying 4MSS as it wants the 5 moves of diamond storm, moonblast, rocks, protect, and ep but has to fight for it. And on top of it all, it just doesn’t have the greatest natural matchup vs many threats like Ash Gren, lando, and Gliscor. Is a wonderful team addition when incorperated correctly but has some shortcomings that limit it too much for A- imo.
Mega Sableye: B+ to A-: Agree
As I mentioned earlier, stall has been getting better recently and that also means Sableye is getting better too. It likes the fact Herra is becoming the common stallbreak mega as it can soft check it and burn it if no pin missle, and avoids the 2hko from tran’s magma storm while being able to recover up with its pseudo taunt immunity and switch after magma storm due to its ghost typing which is valuable considering Heatran’s viability as a stallbreaker. It doesn’t like Diancie being more common for rocks setting but that doesn’t hold Sableye back enough to not make it A-.
Mega Herracross: B to B+: Agree
This mon, as I mentioned earlier, has been gaining a lot of traction as an optimal stallbreaking option over Mawile as it has a unique typing that gives it the capabilities of checking very common threats like Zygarde, Scarf Lando t, and Weavile. It also counters bulky grasses like Tang and Bulu. It’s fighting/rock/grass (or bug) coverage is very powerful and has virtually no switch ins. With all of this in mind, I think Herra is worthy of B+.
Torn T from A+ to A: Disagree
I’m surprised this is even a discussion. Torn is still an amazing defogger with so much damn role compression in one slot. It beats all the bulky grasses this meta has as well as beating things like Scarf Lando and u turning on a lot of shit. it has that busted regen to make it’s defogging job even more effective. It’s also started using quite a few z moves to counter the stuff that’d usually annoy it like Heatran or Tyranitar with z fight. The meta hasn’t changed enough to make Torn be considered that much worse, let alone worse enough off to where it needs to be A imo.
Volcanion: B- to C+: Disagree
I think this thing has a really solid niche of annoying common balance cores like CelePex/ bulky grass and can actually beat those balances easier with less Latis. It soft checks ash ninja as it can switch into pump or shuriken. It’s bulk is also great so it can take a strong hit and fire back hard and it’s typing is surprisingly decent defensively, especially with all the defog around. It does hate MUs vs offense but I don’t feel that’s enough for it to drop to C+ imo.
Mega Aerodactyl: C- to UR: Agreed
This thing really doesn’t have much of a niche anymore with all the z flash cannon and lava plume heatrans, timid mega zams, and with Ash ninja being as common as ever as well as most things being bulky enough to take its attacks, it just doesn’t really impact the metagame in any real way. It also faces 4MSS so it can’t even run exactly what it needs. UR with Altaria sounds better for this mon imo.
Charizard Y: B- to B: AgreeI know I’ve mentioned this thing should rise a million times before and I’m glad it’s finally a discussion point for rising. Charizard Y loves the increase in balances lacking the Eon Twins as balance is this thing’s best matchup as not very much can outspeed and or threaten it in any significant way. Also, its coverage of Fire/Grass/Fighting is hard to switch into without Toxapex or the Eon Duo and roost makes balance’s typical attckers not do enough. Grasses like Bulu and Tang are the best they have ever been right now and having a mon that can switch into them confortably and threaten them very hard offensively is a very nice niche. And finally, hazard control has never been easier to incorperate on to teams which is a huge deal when building with this thing. Some of its best hazard control partners in my experience are z fight defog Torn and Excadrill. It’s even been seeing some tour usage, which shows it’s a legitmately good mon.
I really like this thing as bulky defogger rn. It likes the influx in stall as its whirlpool+taunt+natures madness set can do very well in stall matchups. It serves as a nice sponge for many threats including Ash Greninja, Heatran, Hereacross, and Hawlucha. Defog really sets Fini apart from other Bulky waters like Toxapex as well as having a status immunity which works for the rest of it’s team. It’s lack of recovery is really annoying and sets it back a bit but with leftovers and it’s bulk, this shouldn’t be the biggest issue ever. Plus, it doesn’t suck like Mantine.
With Mega Herracross (which I’ll cover later) being bigger as a stallbreaker and destroying this thing as well as slightly less Zygarde make this thing not worth a rise to me. Plus, stall has many great walling options as it is. And while Avallug’s niche as the best Zygarde counter in the game is quite notable, it doesn’t warrent it a rise imo given it’s other issues like a Heatran vulnerability and being deadweight vs a team with Herracross or special Hoopa as the breaker.
I’ll agree that Kommo-O is a pretty ok offensive threats with some variety in 2 sets being Z move and BD Sub Salac. It likes Ash Gren being so common as it can set up on it as well as passive shit that can’t touch it like Tangrowth or Bulu. It was also used a little while ago by Loppuny Kicks to reach 1900 during OLT (ik that was a while ago but the point still stands).
With stall becoming better, Chansey is of course getting better. With the current meta so littered with special threats like Ash Gren, Tapu Koko, and Mega Alakazam. There really isn’t too much to say about Chansey, just as stall gets better, so does it, cause it’s home is stall (except Chansey offense).
I was in the same stance the last time this was a discussion point. While Ash Greninja is an amazing pokemon that brings so much to offensive teams, there’s a few things keeping it out of S for me. For one thing, compare to Heatran or Lando, Ash Gren is much more basic and one-dimentional, and while this doesn’t make a mon not S worthy alone, it plays a role. For another thing, it’s checks and counters are still very good with Bulu and Toxapex in particular being great examples. it can spike on the switch to these 2, it doesn’t make it possible to beat them necessarily. Ash Gren also hates stall coming back as a relatively popular style as it can’t break stall. Amazing mon, just not S worthy imo.
Similar reasoning to Ash Greninja, while an amazing mon and rarely being deadweight in a battle, Mawile doesn’t deserve S imo. For one, Mawile is also pretty limited in terms of set variety and can often face issues of what moves to run. It also must rely on sucker punch for sweeps which isn’t reliable to say the least. And lastly, it can’t break stall as well as before with the introduction of Aggron stall. Amazing mon but also doesn’t feel right in S imo.
Diancie has been showing it’s merits pretty well as of late after its dismissal and has proven to be a great rocker, especially vs stall, and protect helping it scout moves from lures or choice locked mons more often than not. Diancie also soft checks shit like Torn and counters stuff like Sableye. It also faces some annoying 4MSS as it wants the 5 moves of diamond storm, moonblast, rocks, protect, and ep but has to fight for it. And on top of it all, it just doesn’t have the greatest natural matchup vs many threats like Ash Gren, lando, and Gliscor. Is a wonderful team addition when incorperated correctly but has some shortcomings that limit it too much for A- imo.
As I mentioned earlier, stall has been getting better recently and that also means Sableye is getting better too. It likes the fact Herra is becoming the common stallbreak mega as it can soft check it and burn it if no pin missle, and avoids the 2hko from tran’s magma storm while being able to recover up with its pseudo taunt immunity and switch after magma storm due to its ghost typing which is valuable considering Heatran’s viability as a stallbreaker. It doesn’t like Diancie being more common for rocks setting but that doesn’t hold Sableye back enough to not make it A-.
This mon, as I mentioned earlier, has been gaining a lot of traction as an optimal stallbreaking option over Mawile as it has a unique typing that gives it the capabilities of checking very common threats like Zygarde, Scarf Lando t, and Weavile. It also counters bulky grasses like Tang and Bulu. It’s fighting/rock/grass (or bug) coverage is very powerful and has virtually no switch ins. With all of this in mind, I think Herra is worthy of B+.
I’m surprised this is even a discussion. Torn is still an amazing defogger with so much damn role compression in one slot. It beats all the bulky grasses this meta has as well as beating things like Scarf Lando and u turning on a lot of shit. it has that busted regen to make it’s defogging job even more effective. It’s also started using quite a few z moves to counter the stuff that’d usually annoy it like Heatran or Tyranitar with z fight. The meta hasn’t changed enough to make Torn be considered that much worse, let alone worse enough off to where it needs to be A imo.
I think this thing has a really solid niche of annoying common balance cores like CelePex/ bulky grass and can actually beat those balances easier with less Latis. It soft checks ash ninja as it can switch into pump or shuriken. It’s bulk is also great so it can take a strong hit and fire back hard and it’s typing is surprisingly decent defensively, especially with all the defog around. It does hate MUs vs offense but I don’t feel that’s enough for it to drop to C+ imo.
This thing really doesn’t have much of a niche anymore with all the z flash cannon and lava plume heatrans, timid mega zams, and with Ash ninja being as common as ever as well as most things being bulky enough to take its attacks, it just doesn’t really impact the metagame in any real way. It also faces 4MSS so it can’t even run exactly what it needs. UR with Altaria sounds better for this mon imo.
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Well you decided to pick my post apart line by line and then wonder if I'M the one being argumentative. Apparently respectfully disagreeing with somebody is being argumentative for no reason!
But hey I can entertain you
The whole "soft" switch-in thing is a little subjective (clearly) and I suppose I have stricter standards for what I consider a "soft" switch-in. Greninja isn't even a 1-time only switch-in to half of the stuff you listed though, like at least its taking one hit from tran 80% of the time but you risk complete death switching into victini, kyu-b, or hoopa and greninja is only a VERY situational switch-in to these, which are, in your words
might as well call ferrothorn a soft switch in to magnezone not like you get nuked by a coverage move every zone carries or anything
you started off by listing a paragraph of very valid statements and listed that one pokemon indeed isn't a counter to another pokemon to try to illustrate some point i'm not quite understanding. I never did suggest Gren counters some of the hardest hitting mons in the tier, and I never said you said it either. What you DID say was that it was a hard check to mawile and weavile, and what I DID say in response was that you're overhyping that. I took it seriously because I thought that the term "hard check" was very misleading, and I followed up with specific examples and calcs of why that is.
And speaking of calcs, I think we're a little confused here. Even though you mentioned "its relative difficulty transforming" yourself, you're suddenly calcing from ash form vs weavile and mawile, which is not really whats normal for ash gren; its going to be in normal form most of the time and its only reasonable to use calcs from normal form gren. I'm not sure I can change your mind, but lets try to post these calcs and maybe it won't look like i'm being "argumentative for no reason."
Lets start with Weavile knocking off normal form ash gren, in a 1v1 situation, because thats how you'd judge the performance of a check.
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 156-183 (54.7 - 64.2%)
Gren's specs are knocked off now...so hydro damage looks like this.
252 SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 175-207 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
As you can see, weavile will live the pump after rocks 100% of the time. Now lets see the knock damage afterwards.
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 105-123 (36.8 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
If we calc from min rolls, its 54.7% min from first knock, 38.8% from the second knock, and 12.5% from stealth rock, which totals (54.7+36.8+12.5)=104% min. So as you can see, if greninja isn't evolved (it usually isnt) then specs greninja LOSES 1v1 to CB weavile.
You touted this one as "hard checked," and I wanted to make sure I broke it apart for you to understand completely that it isn't.
We can also talk about Mega Mawile. Let's start off by assuming Mega Mawile clicks Swords Dance as Greninja comes in, because greninja is probably a soft switch in to the play rough or some dumb shit. You'd be really interested in the replay where mega mawile exclusively spammed play rough all game though, right? Sounds like a fun match!
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 200-235 (70.1 - 82.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
Is what happens if mega mawile guesses correctly
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 238-282 (98.7 - 117%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Is what happens if mega mawile guesses incorrectly (using 0 hp just to see damage)
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 99-120 (41 - 49.7%) -- approx. 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Is what happens if Greninja shurikens; sucker does zero if shuriken was correct, and i'm sure you dont need to see play rough damage if shuriken was incorrect.
The reason I assume rocks+spikes on the side of Mega Mawile is because that is how SD Mega mawile performs best, it wants entry hazards to chip offensive checks like tapu koko, heatran, and our very own greninja into sucker range. The teams SD mega mawile will be effectively built into will have entry hazards and team support (which is one reason to keep mmaw A+, SD sets only work on very specific teambuilds), so I think its fair to assume rocks+spikes in the late-game where SD Maw will probably be seeing action.
For the record, I think its fair to assume rocks+spikes when calcing ash gren vs some defensive threats too, especially the ones it spikes on as they comes in, but I think something like weavile is a little more inappropriate.
It's pretty obvious how this goes down vs scizor, if its healthy it kills you with u-turn and if its weakened and u hit hydro u win.
I hope all this has made my points clearer and hopefully i'm not facilitating any further misinterpretations on your end. Ash gren doesnt reliably check the priority users like you implied it does, it is not a soft switch in to some of the things you mentioned (from my perspective), and yes we can both agree it should be A+
The essay ends here :] oh i wouldnt' want to be argumentative just to farm likes tho please dont like this post
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he said, while being argumentative for no reason
you can argue about gren maybe being able to switch in once on a resisted or non stab attack like kyub ice beam or heatran earth power, but this is where you really see how much it pales in comparison to heatran and lando for defensive utility.
even offensive lando variants make decent deterrents for physical attackers thanks to intimidate, plus the electric and ground immunities are absolutely huge especially for scarf. intimidate lando can help against super threatening guys like zard x and mega gyara (although you might have to sack it in the process). meanwhile ash gren can't do any of this stuff and fails to kill most boosted sweepers with shuriken, even volcarona.
offensive heatran isn't very bulky as far as steels go and it's definitely let me down at times, but it does take strong hits which can help it check lots of mons. koko thunderbolt, av bulu superpower, scarf lele focus blast, and others fail to ohko, while heatran can deal huge damage with magma storm or just pop them with a z move.
but more than anything tho dude you need to chill. this post comes off as super condescending and not very respectful of the person you're arguing with, which is just a bad look.
anyway i honestly disagree with msab/chansey rising right now. it might just be the fact that the stalls i see on ladder never run moltres and i have heatran, but i don't really feel like stall is super powerful in the meta right now. cheesy offense builds like rain webs tr aren't very prominent at the moment, so teams have more room to run stuff like mega maw and non scarf lele. torn and gliscor being as good as they are means you can deny rocks by threatening to knock eviolite, which takes away one of stall's best ways of applying pressure aka winning the war of attrition.
not gonna lie i could definitely see stall rising as it adapts to the meta and we see another "best" stall team, but at the moment i don't think it's due for a rise.
It seems odd someone arguing for Gren to remain A+ is trying to argue its "defensive utility." I'm arguing for S rank and can say definitively Gren isn't switching into anything other than weak resisted hits from a defensive mon or a choice locked hidden power. Sure it can take a hit from a lot of things, but so can just about any mon in the game.
Like most fast and frail mons, Gren is coming in after a ko, u-turn, double, or as a desperation predict. This doesn't particularly matter because once it is in it's going to pressure the hell out of your opponent. Your opponent will likely try anything to keep it from netting a ko, as once it evolves its counter list shrinks to like 3 total mons (Fini, Bulu, and my man Azumarill see nom below) , and its checks are one bad prediction from being history. Which means you can do one of three things: lay down a round of spikes to rack up the chip damage, u-turn to your next pressure mon (something like tapu koko or mega maw), or fire off a powerful attack and weaken a defensive mon.
Of course all this is predicated on it running the standard spec set as greninja can and does run both protean and z-crystal lures. There isn't a mon in the metagame it can't ko with the appropriate z coverage move. Gunk shot/Acid Downpour takes out every fairy counter in the game + tangrowth, while tectonic rage/shattered psyche eliminates toxapex. These lures are good sets and yet get little attention, because specs-greninja is so devastating by itself that it is almost completely outclasses them. It doesn't clear the path for other mons, other mons clear the path for it.
The role compression of the standard specs set is: breaker, revenge killer, hazard setter/pivot, and late game win con. I don't know of a single other mon that can do all that in a single set. Lando-t can do all those things in different sets. Heatran can't do all those things in its myriad sets. People complain about lack of versatility, but it's not that Gren can't do other things as its movepool is massive, it's why would you want it to do anything other than what it already does?
P.S. Crustle is broken. Ban it while we still can.
Like most fast and frail mons, Gren is coming in after a ko, u-turn, double, or as a desperation predict. This doesn't particularly matter because once it is in it's going to pressure the hell out of your opponent. Your opponent will likely try anything to keep it from netting a ko, as once it evolves its counter list shrinks to like 3 total mons (Fini, Bulu, and my man Azumarill see nom below) , and its checks are one bad prediction from being history. Which means you can do one of three things: lay down a round of spikes to rack up the chip damage, u-turn to your next pressure mon (something like tapu koko or mega maw), or fire off a powerful attack and weaken a defensive mon.
Of course all this is predicated on it running the standard spec set as greninja can and does run both protean and z-crystal lures. There isn't a mon in the metagame it can't ko with the appropriate z coverage move. Gunk shot/Acid Downpour takes out every fairy counter in the game + tangrowth, while tectonic rage/shattered psyche eliminates toxapex. These lures are good sets and yet get little attention, because specs-greninja is so devastating by itself that it is almost completely outclasses them. It doesn't clear the path for other mons, other mons clear the path for it.
The role compression of the standard specs set is: breaker, revenge killer, hazard setter/pivot, and late game win con. I don't know of a single other mon that can do all that in a single set. Lando-t can do all those things in different sets. Heatran can't do all those things in its myriad sets. People complain about lack of versatility, but it's not that Gren can't do other things as its movepool is massive, it's why would you want it to do anything other than what it already does?
P.S. Crustle is broken. Ban it while we still can.
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Greninja-Ash A+ >>> S
Ash-Gren has undoubtedly proven to be a very influential addition to the SM-meta. While archetypes, cores and individual mons and their sets have been rising and falling throughout the meta, Ash-Gren has been as close to consistency as you can demand with merely one set. Yet, I will advocate for its stay in A+.
While part of my opinion is based on the fact that there’s too large of a gap between Lando and Tran’s viability and the viability of others, a bridge I cannot see getting crossed by any Pokemon right now if S- won’t be reintroduced, to fully comprehend my point of view on this issue, you’ll have to give some thought on the reasoning for Heatran and Lando-T’s residence in the S-rank.
Heatran is a Pokemon that sets the tempo for the metagame around it. Moreover, each time an attempt is made to solve the enigma of taking countermeasures against it, it simply finds itself unphased/ having a way to defeat said countermeasure/ losing no traction. It requires no support while being “a Pokemon that the metagame has limited switch-ins to, but also a Pokemon that functions as a switch-in to other threats, thus making it more multi-purposed than just about anything else in the metagame. Rarely do you ever see a Pokemon with such an established defensive presence also have a lack of defensive counterplay while not actually being banworthy*” aka, while providing tons and tons and tons of support itself.
* quoted from Finchinator
Landorus-Therian is also a mon that provides near unmatchable support with its two most common sets (i.e. Bulky Scarf and Defensive) courtesy of its excellent typing combined with a blessed ability (much like Heatran), while maintaining stellar offensive presence and is even more of a glue to a lot of teams than Heatran is. However, it does not stop here. Besides these already amazing sets, Lando-t also has access to a plethora of highly rewarding and threatening (and criminally underrated) Z-sets which have a limited pool of checks and very obscure counters (read: Iron Defense Mega Slowbro and Skarmory). Sure, these aren’t as common as they should be but does that necessarily take away effectiveness?
Now for the sake of comprehension, let’s say that Lando-T only had its Scarf-set and Heatran only had its Taunt + Magma Storm set. Would they’ve been S-rank in those circumstances? Undoubtedly not! It is true that the criteria to be an S-ranked mon do not state that said mon has to have offensive and defensive qualities at the same time, a topic that repeatedly gets beaten to death and probably originates from the plethora of examples there are to be found (e.g. currently Heatran and Lando, Clefable in ORAS, Tapu Fini in early SM et cetera) and a topic that is wrong. However, for a purely offensive-inclined mon to be S, it does need either terrifying unpredictability (regular Greninja, Tapu Lele and Pheromosa in SM) or one set that completely dominates the metagame, of which Naganadel is the most recent example. Since Ash-Greninja obviously doesn’t have the former, my question to you is: Is Ash-Gren’s Specs set truly that defining? I’ll leave the answer to you but for me it is a definite no.
Frankly, for much of the same reasons, Mega Mawile should not rise either.
Ash-Gren has undoubtedly proven to be a very influential addition to the SM-meta. While archetypes, cores and individual mons and their sets have been rising and falling throughout the meta, Ash-Gren has been as close to consistency as you can demand with merely one set. Yet, I will advocate for its stay in A+.
While part of my opinion is based on the fact that there’s too large of a gap between Lando and Tran’s viability and the viability of others, a bridge I cannot see getting crossed by any Pokemon right now if S- won’t be reintroduced, to fully comprehend my point of view on this issue, you’ll have to give some thought on the reasoning for Heatran and Lando-T’s residence in the S-rank.
Heatran is a Pokemon that sets the tempo for the metagame around it. Moreover, each time an attempt is made to solve the enigma of taking countermeasures against it, it simply finds itself unphased/ having a way to defeat said countermeasure/ losing no traction. It requires no support while being “a Pokemon that the metagame has limited switch-ins to, but also a Pokemon that functions as a switch-in to other threats, thus making it more multi-purposed than just about anything else in the metagame. Rarely do you ever see a Pokemon with such an established defensive presence also have a lack of defensive counterplay while not actually being banworthy*” aka, while providing tons and tons and tons of support itself.
* quoted from Finchinator
Landorus-Therian is also a mon that provides near unmatchable support with its two most common sets (i.e. Bulky Scarf and Defensive) courtesy of its excellent typing combined with a blessed ability (much like Heatran), while maintaining stellar offensive presence and is even more of a glue to a lot of teams than Heatran is. However, it does not stop here. Besides these already amazing sets, Lando-t also has access to a plethora of highly rewarding and threatening (and criminally underrated) Z-sets which have a limited pool of checks and very obscure counters (read: Iron Defense Mega Slowbro and Skarmory). Sure, these aren’t as common as they should be but does that necessarily take away effectiveness?
Now for the sake of comprehension, let’s say that Lando-T only had its Scarf-set and Heatran only had its Taunt + Magma Storm set. Would they’ve been S-rank in those circumstances? Undoubtedly not! It is true that the criteria to be an S-ranked mon do not state that said mon has to have offensive and defensive qualities at the same time, a topic that repeatedly gets beaten to death and probably originates from the plethora of examples there are to be found (e.g. currently Heatran and Lando, Clefable in ORAS, Tapu Fini in early SM et cetera) and a topic that is wrong. However, for a purely offensive-inclined mon to be S, it does need either terrifying unpredictability (regular Greninja, Tapu Lele and Pheromosa in SM) or one set that completely dominates the metagame, of which Naganadel is the most recent example. Since Ash-Greninja obviously doesn’t have the former, my question to you is: Is Ash-Gren’s Specs set truly that defining? I’ll leave the answer to you but for me it is a definite no.
Frankly, for much of the same reasons, Mega Mawile should not rise either.
Putting these mons together bc its p much the same commentary for both of them. They're undoubtedly 2 of the most consistently well-performing mons in the tier and are really easy to fit on a team but there is not a lot of versatility to them. gren really has the 1.5 sets (z hydro and specs play marginally differently but its the same moveset and general playstyle) and with mawile its just figuring out which coverage moves its got, which u can be punished for obvi (tran into brick break/focus punch or pex into thunder punch ie) but its not to the point where its like landorus or heatran, where mispredicting the set can cost u the whole game. so theyre not too hard to bud and play around. and ik theres the argument that these mons warp the metagame around them but thats true of like, every mon in the A ranks tbh- ou this gen is "prep for 30 different pokemon that sweep u if u cant answer them" and while ash-gren & mawile are no exception that shouldn't make them S rank, especially when the mons that check them (bulu, pex, heatran, landorus) are pokemon that are good on their own merits and checking mawile/gren is just bonus- ur not forced to play like, shiinotic to check gren. all that said these 2 are a cut above the rest of A+ with the exception of mag & zygarde and if S- was still a thing they'd be right at home there
stalls getting better n thankfully i dont see it much on the ladder but these 2 are staples on it and if stall rises so should they. easy agree
i love diancie and its definitely gotten better but its not A- material imo, at least not yet. 4mss hits this thing hard bc you want protect, rocks, moonblast, diamond storm, earth power, and hp fire and missing out on 2 of em hurts. diancie also has a lot of trouble switching in in this metagame full of grass, steel, water and ground attackers, and its especially a liability against ash-gren who forces it out 100% of the time with the threat of water shuriken and transforming. not 2 mention scarf lando is still everywhere and that wrecks diancie. overall diance is a good mon, its been getting better, but its not A- yet
i love this mon rn, it has hardly any safe switchins. it does have trouble switching in bc of rocks + not great defensive typing and can be a liability against ash gren when weakened but overall very solid, pretty good speed tier and great attacking power means once this mon is in its generally gonna ko something, and everything slower has to be wary of getting 2kod. it really benefits from the rise in fat grasses & heatran that let it switch in safely and immediately force a switch, and theres also the fact that ur opponent has to account for it being x or y which can out you in a great spot if they predict wrong. overall a very solid mon that should be higher.
big fan of fini, solid defogger & taunter and natures madness is great. lack of non-leftovers recovery is unfortunate but its w/e tbh. it consistently checks some of the biggest threats in the metagame in gren, pex & tran and stopping status w misty terrain is GREAT right now with all the glare + tspikes running around, plus getting rid of the other 2 terrains is good too. defs needs a rise and im surprised it didnt rise last time around.
dunno why this is even a point, torn is still good as fuck, forms a great regen core with tangrowth and/or pex, a pain in the ass to break through, super solid defogger, just all around a really effective mon and not much has changed for it to drop.
not gonna speak on the rest bc i dont have enough experience with them to have a strong opinion either way
Hey everybody, this is my first real post here on Smogon, I just want to add in my thoughts on the discussion points.
from A+ to A: Disagree.
I don’t have much to add here but Tornadus-T is still an excellent Pokémon that is incredibly easy to fit into a team. It does a great job of Defogging and can check old threats such as Landorus-T, Tapu Bulu, and Kartana while also checking rising threats such as Tangrowth. It also benefits from the decrease in usage of Tyranitar. My personal favorite set right now is the All-Out-Pummeling set. It annihilates that rely on shit like Ferrothorn and Heatran to check it, meaning it makes it even better at keeping Sneaky Pebbles off the field.
from B to B+: Agree.
Mega Heracross is absolutely terrifying right now. It eats most stall teams that are running rampant for breakfast, even the rising Mega Aggron stall. It’s also a decent check to mons like Tapu Bulu and Zygarde. It also partners very well with rising threats like Ash-Greninja and Magearna. It also takes advantage of rising mobs like Slowbro, Tangrowth, and Hydreigon. Clefable’s drop in usage doesn’t hurt either.
from B- to B: Agree.
Tapu Fini has proved that it’s not just that shitty mon you see on the lower ladder. It is an incredible check to Ash-Greninja and Heatran while also shredding stall teams to pieces. It’s overall and incredible gluemon, as it’s very hard to find anything that can be a bulky water, break stall, and Defog at the same time.
from A to A-: Agree
Clefable is one of my favorite Pokémon, but I have to admit that it’s not A material anymore. It’s not a very good Zygarde answer due to Glare being all the rage on Choice Band sets. It’s also deadweight in many matchups such as Moltres stall and balance. It also invites in many sweepers such as Magearna and Volcarona for free. Hydreigon rising can’t save it from dropping in my opinion.
Here are two nominations of my own.
from A+ to A:
Okay, hear me out. Alakazam is obviously still a fantastic Pokémon. However, I don’t think it’s on the a same level as most of A+ anymore. For one, people are starting to prepare for it much more. This isn’t when you could bring a Modest Zam and sweep at team preview. People are packing their Celesteela and Magearna much more often than normal. While two mons aren’t enough to change a Pokemon’s rank, Alakzam is also useless against many stall teams that run rampant, which when you’re a wall breaker, is a huge problem. Finally, Alakzam doesn’t quite feel at the level of Mawile, Ferrothorn, Magerna, and Ash-Greninja, the Pokémon that rule the tier. I think Mega Alakazam belongs more with huge threats like Volcarona and Mega Scizor that still have issues.
Hydreigon from B to B+:
In my eyes, I think Hydreigon deserves on every more raise to B+. It’s just such an incredible glue mob at the moment. Both of its sets, Metronome and Darkinium Z, are incredibly difficulty to switch into unless ignore you have an AV Magearna, making it easy to keep Rocks of the field when you have it on your team. It’s also a fantastic answer to most Heatran and Ash-Greninja sets. It also provides a large amount of other defensive utility, being able to check Mega Slowbro and Tangrowth. It also is probably the only reliable answer to Reuniclus in the tier. It also pairs wonderfully with big threats such as Mega Mawile and Heracross, Slowbro, and Magearna. In my opinion, Hydreigon has a very solid niche in the tier at the moment and deserves to share a spot with Mega Lopunny, Rotom-W, and Weavile.
Thank you for reading my post, and have a good day. Feel free to correct or disagree with me.
Edit: Aplogies for my poor English, not my first language.
I don’t have much to add here but Tornadus-T is still an excellent Pokémon that is incredibly easy to fit into a team. It does a great job of Defogging and can check old threats such as Landorus-T, Tapu Bulu, and Kartana while also checking rising threats such as Tangrowth. It also benefits from the decrease in usage of Tyranitar. My personal favorite set right now is the All-Out-Pummeling set. It annihilates that rely on shit like Ferrothorn and Heatran to check it, meaning it makes it even better at keeping Sneaky Pebbles off the field.
Mega Heracross is absolutely terrifying right now. It eats most stall teams that are running rampant for breakfast, even the rising Mega Aggron stall. It’s also a decent check to mons like Tapu Bulu and Zygarde. It also partners very well with rising threats like Ash-Greninja and Magearna. It also takes advantage of rising mobs like Slowbro, Tangrowth, and Hydreigon. Clefable’s drop in usage doesn’t hurt either.
Tapu Fini has proved that it’s not just that shitty mon you see on the lower ladder. It is an incredible check to Ash-Greninja and Heatran while also shredding stall teams to pieces. It’s overall and incredible gluemon, as it’s very hard to find anything that can be a bulky water, break stall, and Defog at the same time.
Clefable is one of my favorite Pokémon, but I have to admit that it’s not A material anymore. It’s not a very good Zygarde answer due to Glare being all the rage on Choice Band sets. It’s also deadweight in many matchups such as Moltres stall and balance. It also invites in many sweepers such as Magearna and Volcarona for free. Hydreigon rising can’t save it from dropping in my opinion.
Here are two nominations of my own.
Okay, hear me out. Alakazam is obviously still a fantastic Pokémon. However, I don’t think it’s on the a same level as most of A+ anymore. For one, people are starting to prepare for it much more. This isn’t when you could bring a Modest Zam and sweep at team preview. People are packing their Celesteela and Magearna much more often than normal. While two mons aren’t enough to change a Pokemon’s rank, Alakzam is also useless against many stall teams that run rampant, which when you’re a wall breaker, is a huge problem. Finally, Alakzam doesn’t quite feel at the level of Mawile, Ferrothorn, Magerna, and Ash-Greninja, the Pokémon that rule the tier. I think Mega Alakazam belongs more with huge threats like Volcarona and Mega Scizor that still have issues.
In my eyes, I think Hydreigon deserves on every more raise to B+. It’s just such an incredible glue mob at the moment. Both of its sets, Metronome and Darkinium Z, are incredibly difficulty to switch into unless ignore you have an AV Magearna, making it easy to keep Rocks of the field when you have it on your team. It’s also a fantastic answer to most Heatran and Ash-Greninja sets. It also provides a large amount of other defensive utility, being able to check Mega Slowbro and Tangrowth. It also is probably the only reliable answer to Reuniclus in the tier. It also pairs wonderfully with big threats such as Mega Mawile and Heracross, Slowbro, and Magearna. In my opinion, Hydreigon has a very solid niche in the tier at the moment and deserves to share a spot with Mega Lopunny, Rotom-W, and Weavile.
Thank you for reading my post, and have a good day. Feel free to correct or disagree with me.
Edit: Aplogies for my poor English, not my first language.
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Reposting my Azumarill nom only because I've made a lot of updates to the replays and argument since my original post. Want people to see the best argument for this beast of a mon. I promise I won't post anymore on this unless there's a reply/discussion.
Azumarill: C+ -> B.
Sap sipper perish trap is really anti-meta right now. It reliably traps and kills most sets of: Ferrothorn, Tangrowth, Serperior, Toxapex, Tapu Bulu, Celesteela, Reuniclus, Clefable and Chansey clearing the way for a physical sweeper or Ash-Gren. Serves as a defensive check to Ash-gren, Char X and Y, Mega-Gyarados, Volcarona, and Scarf Kartana. Emergency check to most setup sweepers as can usually get toxic/perish off to force them out. It does a good amount of chip damage to other mons with whirlpool + toxic. Protect + leftovers gives it a decent amount of longevity. Now I recognize that sap sipper perish trap is lesser used, but that doesn't change the fact it is damn good in the current meta. Also if players start anticipating sap sipper, oops I just belly drummed and tore giant holes in your team.
Updated with replays with Sap Sipper Azu, Finally done updating as I think this shows enough of its favorable matchups (ok just one more):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-825667859
This is the classic traps ferrothorn (allowing ttar to go to work), along with just putting in a huge amount of work versus a rain team. Should be noted if my opponent plays his azu correctly (which I assume was belly drum I probably lose)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-825618721
Azu walls glare serp completely. Can't do anything to it but lowers its pp, however with para will either win or make it so its not a threat anymore. Perish song also forces zygarde out before it gets rolling too much.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-826023387
Azu wins the game by trapping and koing tangrowth clearing the way for zap/gren/ttar/really anyone to clean up. Also trolls devastating drake garchomp and get the ko on exca after forcing switch from toxapex.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-826066505
Traps and kills clefable. Forces Cof out and repeatedly prevents Mega-Latias from setting up.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-826722750
Walls char y and chips the rest of the team to death. Specifically Lele and Koko.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-826730118
Matchup against Volcarona.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-826978135
Traps and kills bulu, keeps gren in check all battle. Gets enough chip on scizor for ttar to finish off.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-827652691
Forces gyarados out multiple times. Chips kart into shuriken ko. Prevents setup with perish. Win cons serp.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-827991912
Takes out Tang (with sludgebomb) and Reuniclus.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-828010075
Some repeat matchups that you already know azu excels in, but gets 4 Koes. 4!
Azumarill: C+ -> B.
Sap sipper perish trap is really anti-meta right now. It reliably traps and kills most sets of: Ferrothorn, Tangrowth, Serperior, Toxapex, Tapu Bulu, Celesteela, Reuniclus, Clefable and Chansey clearing the way for a physical sweeper or Ash-Gren. Serves as a defensive check to Ash-gren, Char X and Y, Mega-Gyarados, Volcarona, and Scarf Kartana. Emergency check to most setup sweepers as can usually get toxic/perish off to force them out. It does a good amount of chip damage to other mons with whirlpool + toxic. Protect + leftovers gives it a decent amount of longevity. Now I recognize that sap sipper perish trap is lesser used, but that doesn't change the fact it is damn good in the current meta. Also if players start anticipating sap sipper, oops I just belly drummed and tore giant holes in your team.
Updated with replays with Sap Sipper Azu, Finally done updating as I think this shows enough of its favorable matchups (ok just one more):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-825667859
This is the classic traps ferrothorn (allowing ttar to go to work), along with just putting in a huge amount of work versus a rain team. Should be noted if my opponent plays his azu correctly (which I assume was belly drum I probably lose)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-825618721
Azu walls glare serp completely. Can't do anything to it but lowers its pp, however with para will either win or make it so its not a threat anymore. Perish song also forces zygarde out before it gets rolling too much.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-826023387
Azu wins the game by trapping and koing tangrowth clearing the way for zap/gren/ttar/really anyone to clean up. Also trolls devastating drake garchomp and get the ko on exca after forcing switch from toxapex.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-826066505
Traps and kills clefable. Forces Cof out and repeatedly prevents Mega-Latias from setting up.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-826722750
Walls char y and chips the rest of the team to death. Specifically Lele and Koko.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-826730118
Matchup against Volcarona.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-826978135
Traps and kills bulu, keeps gren in check all battle. Gets enough chip on scizor for ttar to finish off.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-827652691
Forces gyarados out multiple times. Chips kart into shuriken ko. Prevents setup with perish. Win cons serp.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-827991912
Takes out Tang (with sludgebomb) and Reuniclus.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-828010075
Some repeat matchups that you already know azu excels in, but gets 4 Koes. 4!
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ash gren been broken and I honestly wanna see each or ur teams that says otherwise bc i have a feeling are using nearly the exact same shit to deal with it and its pairs due to it centralizing the game. Im serious too mccarthyism RRahman1 and whoever else, show me ur smogon accounts and ur teams bc I know I'm right on this. yall def seem predictable and basic. Ash gren is one of the most centralizing mons in the tier and just bc u hyper adjusted to it severely limiting ur team building doesn't make it otherwise. matter of fact you have to guess if its ash gren or protean gren and its movests. like i said before people tend to be pretty stupid and something like ninja is only acceptable bc ppl refuse to think for themselves and do the same shit but now ppl are starting to do variations, like 2 years into it and its exactly what i said before,theyll just adjust and its still broken (like the ppl running z gunk now, did I not fucking tell y'all that was gonna happen).
mega maw def broken too but to a much lesser extent, still S tho.
mega maw def broken too but to a much lesser extent, still S tho.
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This is cool but you'd run double edge instead of stone edge imo to be able to suicide yourself, ala explosion. This is what UU sets ran for a while. I don't think it's better than exca cus you can't get past sab, but cool nonetheless. C- imo.
So does Ash-Gren! Just because people don't use its Z-move sets as much as they should doesn't make them not good! Let's dispel with this myth that specs is the only set Ash-Gren can use. Acid Downpour lures and kills a shit ton of mons. Hydro vortex lets gren get to ash mode (where it has the power of normal specs gren) and still be able to switch moves which is the one major handicap of the specs set. I'm honestly surprised I haven't seen more black hole eclipse, which is a happy middle ground between the two.
Pre-transformation Darkinium-Z against 248/252+ Toxapex: 41.4-49.8%.
With rocks + spikes, dark pulse on the switch (your opponent is switching). Then dark pulse again as they click toxic spikes or scald. Boom lured and killed toxapex. Nobody is clicking recover, worst case scenario your opponent toxics your now-transformed greninja, and has lost their pex (which they probably needed for more than just gren).
Pre-transformation Darkinium-Z against 252/232+ AV Tangrowth:
41-48% same story only without leftovers recovery you just need a bit of chip/extra layer of spikes For 1 dark pulse on switch. You don't get the roll you're looking for on the first dark pulse switch out and try again. There's your extra chip by the way.
And that's against 2 mons that love to take greninja on! All-out pummeling destroys chansey, and shattered psyche/acid downpour murder pex/Tangrowth outright again with just a little chip. This thing doesn't need protean to beat its counters. Just the appropriate Z-move. This thing has the ability to be "terrifyingly unpredictable" people just don't use it because specs already shits on the metagame.
Greninja's super power and what makes it S-worthy is it forces switches to defensive low danger mons like nothing else. I'm facing literally any other mon in the game I have the option to sack something. I'm not sacking against ash-gren for fear of a transformed specs set. In addition to this, with spikes + dark pulse it has a decent chance to chip/hax it way through whatever is trying to answer it. Furthermore, with the appropriate z-move it can shit on any of its so-called counters (acid-downpour currently the best).
Last but not least. Like char-x benefits from char-y, and any mon with a viable normal form/mega forces their opponent into a guessing game, protean Greninja is an A+ mon in its own right, and does not make Ash-Greninja as predictable as you think it is.
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I wanna agree and add to this a bit. Not only is acid downpour great for ruining would-be checks in bulu and tang, but shattered psyche is great for pex, should you want that (all out pummeling is an option for Chansey and Ferro too, but they tend to not be as big of issues on most teams that run Gren due to having dedicated checks to them, I feel.) Gren necessitates that every team have at least a couple defensive answers that can tank hits from it lest it transform into ash, and even then it has the ability to choose what it wants to blow back. Combining that with specs itself has enough power to not care about anything but a few checks, dark pulse allowing flinch hax, and the uncertainty and instability of certain checks due to protean Gren, I think it absolutely deserves to go to S.
i wanted to answer this mainly.
specs is far and away the best ash gren set available - it is the most consistent set that allows gren to break thru checks/switchins extremely frequently. it requires minimal support offensively due to spikes(or the odd ice beam, basically only with ferrothorn), it can wear down basically every single one of its checks throught early-mid game in order to kill them late game, which it can do in almost every game, considering the sheer amount of chances it gets to do stuff.
the big, BIG issue with z-move "lures" is very clearly the lack of spikes. not only are spikes pivotal for the types of teams a-gren finds itself in, it's also the best tool it has to wear down counters like toxapex, tangrowth and ferrothorn and make itself useful every single game - this should be obvious and i shouldn't need to explain it, there's so so so many replays where gren is up against sth like toxapex + bulu and it STILL manages to be useful due to spikes. it doesn't directly break but it helps its team so god damn much.
now the proposed "lures". if it weren't for the context of specs, z moves wouldn't be bad, but specs allowed it to be good in literally every game, unlike those z moves where u have to pick and choose what u lose to.
"but that's why u have 6 pokemon!"
why would u want one of those very valuable 6 slots to be a mon that is only good against specific teams/specific pokemon instead of using something UNIVERSALLY good that does the aforementioned slot's job better in a very much so larger number of games?
e.g: you're using z gunk gren. you're up against bulu - sure it's now not a switchin in the slightest but its rare that
a) your opponent is just so hopelessly weak to ash gren they just lose to a non choiced gren without spikes on the field (the same power as specs non-evolved)
b) they have no other way to check ash gren defensively (again, without specs it's not that scary)
now you go up against toxapex.
scenario 1: you have another teammate w spikes(ferrothorn). no way they're as easy to keep up as gren keeps them up, but let's just say you do. you're NOT specs so you need to flinch multiple times, unlike specs which would have to do so either not at all or just once
scenario 2: you don't have another teammate w spikes(ferrothorn) so you're walled completely.
this is true for every other z lure. z esense is just sad damage vs pex(dpulse into it after rocks doesnt even kill standard spdef pex) and useless against every single grass, zfight does barely half to ferro (literally spike + specs pulse damage), doesn't even do that to chansey, walled by again, every grass and pex.
z-water & z-dark don't fall in this category as they can run spikes, they're just not as consistent as spikes, albeit viable.
TL;DR: the lack of spikes the z sets lack makes it not be a consistent offensive threat, the z sets that do run spikes(water & dark) don't do their job as well as specs does.
there's a whole slew of arguments for ash-gren to be S(won't give my personal opinion) but the z lure sets are NOT one of them. they focus mainly on its consistency due to spikes and how it is able to break through virtually any team not dedicated to beat it BECAUSE of spikes which it provides on its own. z-sets again, don't do that.
hopefully this answered any possible concerns/questions.
(note: this also doesn't reflect the entire VR council's views on the pokemon, naturally.)
Thanks for your thoughtful commentary, I respectfully disagree, and wanted to expand upon my reasoning. Specifically focusing on the rationale I kept from your comment. Acid downpour gren blows its common counters not named toxapex or chansey (and I'll have to check the calcs as I think gunk is doing 30%) out of the water. These are tangrowth, bulu, fini, all quality defensive mons that check a lot of things not just gren. Presumably if you're running acid down pour you have mons that can take advantage of the hole your lure set just opened up. That's kinda the whole point of lures. If the specs set is too good, that you can't justify luring and killing a top tier defensive mon then it's definitely S-rank on its own.
Secondly, I think you're underestimating item-less Ash-gren. It can't just dark pulse through everything like specs can, but unless your opponent is running bulu/fini/tang + pex they're dealing with a mean fast mon with nearly unresisted stabs and a base 75 stab multi-hit priority move. Sure gren likely isn't going to sweep 6-0 from there, but every time it comes back in its going to net a ko. In most battles the specs set isn't transforming until it's time to clean, which means most of the battle you're running normal specs greninja. Ash-Greninja has that power but can switch moves.
Now specifically addressing toxapex. Toxapex is a standout defensive mon that walls 80% of the tier. Any decent team has a plan for it and its common defensive partners. No one uses Ash-Greninja as their pex counter. Ash-Greninja is a dangerous mon that is "countered" by pex and can still beat it some of the time.
Now, you're telling me the only viable build is to run toxapex + other greninja checks, because you need the other checks for the specs set, and toxapex for the Acid downpour set, and this mon isn't S rank?
P.S. Every time I've faced Acid Downpour Ash Greninja I've lost to it. My team is amply prepared for specs, but my Gren counter (Azumarill) just dies to Acid down pour.
i really hate long winded back and forth arguments
zgunk does NOT blow thru tangrowth.
252 SpA Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 84-99 (20.7 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 Atk Greninja Acid Downpour (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 212-250 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
assuming rocks up, you need 2 tang switchins into 2 dark pulse max rolls then get another 2 max rolls on both pulse and the z.
u do kill bulu, nothing there.
fini is not nearly as common as everything else on the gren "counter" list(bulu, tangrowth, av magearna, toxapex, ferrothorn, by far the 5 most common) out of which gunk only reliably lures just 1 and very shakily the other.
im really not, prior to evolving its piss weak and after evolving its strong but it has to evolve to do that(z lures will NOT evolve in the large majority of games, at least won't do it nearly as effortlessly as regular specs ash) and even then it's not the terror to face that specs evolved is.
60, fwiw
really it's kinda the other way around - z lures aren't transforming in most games, specs is. z lures can transform when they get the right matchup - again, not at ALL consistent, not nearly so, assuming that short list of 5 mons which largely make up what people use to switch into it.
it does not and regular specs gren very well can break through toxapex. due to spikes
never said it is, quite the opposite in fact. no idea where this is coming from.
not in the slightest what i said. i also didn't say anything in regards to what ranking it should be placed in, just how the z-lure argument is flawed.
more of a teambuilding error than a testament to z-gunk's viability.
and one final thing i'm not sure i properly addressed;
as i said above, the z lures only lure a very small portion of its counter list, which the specs set ALREADY puts pressure on that your teammates can abuse regardless. you're giving up ash gren's by FAR biggest quality, aka its sheer consistency for a set that will work only a small percentage of the time and is not even guaranteed to work.
i made it long anyway so might as well go through them again.
z-gunk: consistently lures bulu, inconsistently lures tangrowth. toxapex magearna ferrothorn completely wall.
z-esense: inconsistently lures toxapex, nothing else.
z-fight: inconsisntely lures ferrothorn, nothing else.
z-water: can break through everything on that list with more difficulty than specs, except magearna which it beats easier.
z-dark: can break through toxapex/tangrowth w/ an easier time, ferrothorn roughly the same, magearna harder, bulu harder
specs: can break through every single aforementioned mon without ridiculous requirements.
and another thing you give up when you give up specs is your ability to revenge kill. specs has a much, MUCH easier time renenge killing things like zygarde, mawile, heracross, lati@s, torn, medicham etc etc. i won't go too much further into this because i think it's very obvious as to why.
another TL;DR: you give up consistency(spikes) and offensive pressure(revenge killing) in order to lure(often inconsistenly) a small subset of what gren's counters are. you can take advantage of those mons with your teammates regardless because of gren's ability to set and keep spikes up with relative ease, so luring them isn't nearly as big enough a deal.
Definitely gonna agree with talah here ash gren should be going to S but only because of its consistency with the specs set.
Also magearna should stay A+ and is more fitting in an S- (obvs not happening again) tbh shift gear is in my opinion easily the most dangerous "set up" Mon in the tier
Also libtard destroyed.
One final rebuttal and then I'll give it a rest. What I consider gren counters: bulu, tang, fini, sapsip azumarill, chansey, toxapex. If you can't recover health and don't resist both moves (looking at you av mag and ferro) you aren't a counter you're a check. With the appropriate Z-move you can chose which of those mons you want to lure and kill assuming you're going for a lure set. Your opponent will switch their counter in as specs pressures the metagame too much for them to do anything else.
As for the inconsistency, it isn't hard to get chip damage on even the regen mons as rocks + dark pulse is cancelling regenerator. If they're being used to defend against anything else on your team you can get them to the z-move ko range without any risk to your gren.
I think that's enough theorymon with Z Gunk Shot Ash Gren for one day.
I know the users are putting it to rest, but let's focus on valid reasons why Ash Gren should be S and less on sets that have very little effectiveness and are better for shock value at best.
Also to demonstrate how piss poor non Specs can be at times - Dark Pulse + Stealth Rock can't even out damage Regenerator vs Tangrowth. Z Crystal Ash Gren is okay but there's a reason why Specs is superior in majority of instances.
I know the users are putting it to rest, but let's focus on valid reasons why Ash Gren should be S and less on sets that have very little effectiveness and are better for shock value at best.
Also to demonstrate how piss poor non Specs can be at times - Dark Pulse + Stealth Rock can't even out damage Regenerator vs Tangrowth. Z Crystal Ash Gren is okay but there's a reason why Specs is superior in majority of instances.
Hi here, just want to make some quick nominations.
Weavile from B+ to B:
I don't think Weavile is quite as good as it used to be back when Toxapex, Tapu Fini, Stall, and Magearna were less common as they are now. Weavile simply struggles to leave an impact in the majority of matches. Against Stall, it has trouble posing much of a threat towards anything, and against common Bulky Offense and Balanced teams, is struggles to deal with Pokemon such as Toxapex, Celesteela, Tapu Fini, Magearna, and Mega Slowbro. Against Hyper Offense, it also struggles, as it invites in Magearna to set up for free. Finally, the Mega Lati Twins are much less common, meaning its Pursuit trapping capabilities are far less useful. Overall, Weavile relies very heavily on rather specific matchups to be effective at the moment, and it should drop to reflect this.
from B- and C+ to B and B- respectively:
Both of these Pokemon are incredibly good at the moment. Both are very annoying to face for a lot of teams at the moment. They check common Pokemon at the moment such as Zygarde, Heatran, most Protean Greninja, and Mega Lopunny. In addition, both Pokemon fit very well into many teams at the moment, as they synergies very well with Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, and Tapu Bulu. Finally Slowbro is much better than its fellow C+ rank Pokemon, and I also believe that Mega Slowbro is at a much higher level than Keldeo, Pyukumuku, and Gengar.
Mega Camerupt from C to C+:
Mega Camerupt is surprisingly very good at the moment. For starters, Camerupt is oddly enough a very good Stealth Rock setter. With Rock Slide, it can keep them up against Stall, and other Defoggers such as Tapu Koko and Tornadus-T very well. In addition, many teams aren't prepared to switch into Mega Camerupt. For most teams, their best switch in is Greninja, Landorus-T, or Slowbro, all of which are very shaky answers to it. Unless if you have a Hydreigon or Chansey, you are going to have a very hard time switching in to Mega Camerupt at the moment. Mega Camerupt also benefits from Mega Lati@s and Mantine spiking down in usage. Finally, Mega Camerupt is a pretty good answer to the majority of Magearna, a very powerful and rising threat. Mega Camerupt has enough of a reason to be raised into a C+ rank. It's nothing amazing, but it is much better than the majority of its rank at the moment.
Thank you for reading my post! I understand not all of you might agree with me, which is perfectly fine!
I don't think Weavile is quite as good as it used to be back when Toxapex, Tapu Fini, Stall, and Magearna were less common as they are now. Weavile simply struggles to leave an impact in the majority of matches. Against Stall, it has trouble posing much of a threat towards anything, and against common Bulky Offense and Balanced teams, is struggles to deal with Pokemon such as Toxapex, Celesteela, Tapu Fini, Magearna, and Mega Slowbro. Against Hyper Offense, it also struggles, as it invites in Magearna to set up for free. Finally, the Mega Lati Twins are much less common, meaning its Pursuit trapping capabilities are far less useful. Overall, Weavile relies very heavily on rather specific matchups to be effective at the moment, and it should drop to reflect this.
Both of these Pokemon are incredibly good at the moment. Both are very annoying to face for a lot of teams at the moment. They check common Pokemon at the moment such as Zygarde, Heatran, most Protean Greninja, and Mega Lopunny. In addition, both Pokemon fit very well into many teams at the moment, as they synergies very well with Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, and Tapu Bulu. Finally Slowbro is much better than its fellow C+ rank Pokemon, and I also believe that Mega Slowbro is at a much higher level than Keldeo, Pyukumuku, and Gengar.
Mega Camerupt is surprisingly very good at the moment. For starters, Camerupt is oddly enough a very good Stealth Rock setter. With Rock Slide, it can keep them up against Stall, and other Defoggers such as Tapu Koko and Tornadus-T very well. In addition, many teams aren't prepared to switch into Mega Camerupt. For most teams, their best switch in is Greninja, Landorus-T, or Slowbro, all of which are very shaky answers to it. Unless if you have a Hydreigon or Chansey, you are going to have a very hard time switching in to Mega Camerupt at the moment. Mega Camerupt also benefits from Mega Lati@s and Mantine spiking down in usage. Finally, Mega Camerupt is a pretty good answer to the majority of Magearna, a very powerful and rising threat. Mega Camerupt has enough of a reason to be raised into a C+ rank. It's nothing amazing, but it is much better than the majority of its rank at the moment.
Thank you for reading my post! I understand not all of you might agree with me, which is perfectly fine!
No way should Weavile go to B.
Weavile can easily threaten any Tapu Bulu and Zygarde and Landorus-T set, no matter what. Also it beats the majority of Psychic types in the meta too. Tangrowth also hates this as it can either Knock Off or hit it with a hard ice move, especially the Choice Banded ones. While the rise of Toxapex and Magearna harms this thing a bit, I do not think it should be in the same rank with Victini, Suicune or Gastrodon. An important thing to note is it works really well with Charizard Y, and Charizard Y thrives in a Steel and Grass meta. With Steels being slightly more popular, which can generally Tank Weavile, does not like being hit against Charizard Y in general. I think Weavile is fine in B+, or if things go right for it, potentially A-. Weavile has potential. Weavile does not automatically lose to Stall. It loses to a handful of them, but so do most of the Pokemon in B+. While Magearna sets up on Weavile's face, there are certain checks to this thing like Charizard Y and Volcarona. Garchomp's potential has been unveiled, and Weavile can take advantage of any set with Ice Shard, even if Weavile does not like switching in to Garchomp.
Choice Band is also very effective, in my opinion. The Choice Band set helped me win a good amount of battles.
Weavile (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit
Edit: Felixx helped me out a bit.
Tapu Fini and Celesteela hate getting knocked off, Weavile can pursuit Zapdos on stall and using pursuit against Tornadus-Therian is really good.
TLDR: Keep Weavile in B+.
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In my opinion the only thing from keeping Ash Greninja from being S, or downright busted is its pre transformation, there are a number of specially defensive or even just general bulky mons in the tier that can handle pre-Battle Bond Gren.
Specs full power Hydro + Pulse is a crazy combo and it's speed is cusping on the edge of broken, but most teams weak to ash gren tend to have at least an answer to the weaker form or a scarfer who can avoid/resist shuriken. Bringing me to the main reason pre-Battle Bond Gren keeps the forme from Uber levels. Water Shuriken is such a strong and consistent move with specs but is severely limited until you nab a KO, it can be handy but is leagues below the full version.
All in all I disagree with Ash Gren to S, I think the limitations of transforming to full power hold it back enough, certainly as unique Pokemon and not a mega, Ash gren would be S.
EDIT: Totally disagree with a Weavile drop, that Mon is great rn
Specs full power Hydro + Pulse is a crazy combo and it's speed is cusping on the edge of broken, but most teams weak to ash gren tend to have at least an answer to the weaker form or a scarfer who can avoid/resist shuriken. Bringing me to the main reason pre-Battle Bond Gren keeps the forme from Uber levels. Water Shuriken is such a strong and consistent move with specs but is severely limited until you nab a KO, it can be handy but is leagues below the full version.
All in all I disagree with Ash Gren to S, I think the limitations of transforming to full power hold it back enough, certainly as unique Pokemon and not a mega, Ash gren would be S.
EDIT: Totally disagree with a Weavile drop, that Mon is great rn
im acutally tired of this rhetoric as it's tone deaf and pretty much like -_-, like dude please. to be specific I mean:" the limitations of transforming to full power hold it back enough." Like you've got to be kidding me. For starters, theres a reason 2 of the most broken mons in the tier are paired with each other (magearna and ash gren) and it's not remotely a coincidence that sacking gives them boosts in power. There are teams made for shit like that and lets not act like everything is in a vacuum. To continue lets say I guess ur the specs set - which i used to do - what if ur not? What if ur protean, what if that set just kod my counter.... theres so many things wrong with ninja and ur gonna say it has issues transforming? Unless ur brining a chansey every game what the hell are u talking about, when has greninja EVER had an issue transforming. BTW that's not a rhetorical question, that is an open question to literally everyone on this thread. When in the history of sun/moon, has your ash gren ever had an issue getting it's kill to transform(other than chansey)? You are acting like it doesn't have revenge killing potential easily and can just uturn or pick off weakened mons. tired of that ridiculous statement
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I think Ash-Gren needing to transform is the only thing that holds it back from a one way ticket to ubers. Specs Ash-Gren is straight up broken in its transformed form, but specs normal form is just another mon. Not a bad mon but not a fantastic one either. It's the threat of transformation that forces switches like crazy. Most Ash-Gren strategies are focused on keeping it in its normal form, as aside from scarf lele (like 80% are specs/z move) and the ultra rare nowadays scarf lati not much can reliably revenge kill it.
Which is why a lot of teams run 2-3 of its counters and mons that can switch in repeatedly. Tox + Tang and Tox + Bulu cores are very common not just for gren, but because everyone runs stupid toxapex and bulu/tang covers its weaknesses very well. Even if they aren't running that core they usually have AV mag or ferro who can stave off transformation for 3-4 switch ins but will eventually be worn down.
Now in the team I'm currently running I usually can't transform Ash-Gren until late game when I've broken my opponents team, or worn down their check over time. It's not easy to get it transformed, because of how much people prep for the specs set. If I can get it transformed early that's usually a sure victory, unless I get hit by a surprise sweeper I'm not prepped for.
In my opinion the difficulty Ash-Gren has transforming is it centralizing the hell out of the meta. It has like 5-6 true counters, three of which are on damn near every team and most everything else gets worn down and loses to it every time. Also people don't want to talk about z-moves but it can beat all those counters if the user is so inclined.
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