Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Gary]

I think it's definitely overblown how much transformation limits Ash's effectiveness, especially considering that like Omari P said any well played BB Gren is going to have little issue getting a kill unless you're going up against something like stall or disgusting Chansey offense. Even when Ash isn't transformed, it's still prepping itself for a late game clean by spamming Spikes and essentially wearing its switch-ins down without even needing to come in all the time to do so. Even then, Dark Pulse is a fair move that can just bullshit its way through shit like Pex which is why bringing only a Pex as your Ash check is like unheard of on good builds these days. It's honestly extremely self-sufficient when you think about it. It doesn't need versatility or defensive utility because it's so damn good at doing its job that it doesn't need to. It's like the only offensive Pokemon in the tier I can think of that is able to maintain usefulness in practically ever match-up bar stall and despite the fact that no matter how many checks/counters you bring by applying enough pressure it can like 90% of the time still find a way to get a kill.

Keep in mind that when trying to justify keeping Ash Gren out of S, please don't compare it to Naganadel, that's like, extremely unfair lol. I think Ash Gren is successful enough to a point where it doesn't need to have 6 sets or zero hard counters to be S. Even if they have a Chansey outside of stall, Gren can just spam Spikes and support its team. I've seen Chansey's get pressured enough by Spikes to a point where they have to sack something to Gren to keep Chansey healthy enough for other things, so like lol. The mon is legit absurd.

 

[Lotus]

Before I just budge into this thread and end up echoing basically what every other person said in the thread by far, there seems to be some unusual reasoning behind Ash-Greninja's nomination. Some disagreeing arguments talk about how fulfilling the right condition for Ash-Greninja to be successful with transforming and eventually cleaning up is too difficult and it struggles against the tier even after the transformation. From what I remember from SM days when Ash-Greninja came to the tier (and from what I hear from various discussions and learn from watching some recent tournament replays), I don't think such statements are necessarily true.

"Checks like these exist and they will hard wall X"

I'll try my best to avoid what Gary said above but the reason why Ash-Greninja has been a prominent sweeper despite of how often the metagame trend has changed is because it is consistent with harassing every archetype. Gary said Ash-Greninja struggles against stall, but I won't even say Ash-Greninja struggles against stall at all because none of the Pokemon in stall that checks Ash-Greninja can manage to independently remove Spikes (I know Tapu Fini exists, don't @ me). There are tons of examples all over the tiers that aren't terribly good at KOing 90% of the tier by clicking attacks but some offensive threats are considered prominent enough because they can still be useful when they can't manage to cause damage to the opposing team or can do something else. Ash-Greninja can do both - it will almost always draw in something specially defensive so in that aspect it is a threat that can cause many switches and generate predictable reactions as a result. This opens a room for Ash-Greninja to set Spikes or even double if the situation calls for it. And by 'predictable reaction' for Ash-Greninja the number of Pokemon that can switch into it is quite limited. Saying that 'tox / tang / chansey will wall this all day' will only reinforce the argument that the pool of Pokemon that Ash-Greninja can check is limited instead of making people believe Ash-Greninja struggles to do damage in the tier.

"Ash-Greninja isn't terribly difficult to deal with because most of its checks are common in the tier so it doesn't influence the teambuilding too much."

Probably this kind of statements make me frown the most because a Pokemon being well prepared doesn't immediately translate to the question about viability. If a Pokemon is difficult to even blanket check and properly handle, and reaches the point where players have to decide between preparing for the specific Pokemon or not doing so and losing against the rest of the tier, that's what I would define as 'unhealthy' Pokemon instead of S-Rank Pokemon. If we give a short glance at the past and take Heatran as an example and decide to apply arguments like "there are Pokemon like eon twins / Gliscor / Tapu Fini so why is this thing S when common Pokemon can hinder its role" no Pokemon would really deserve to be S rank unless it is Naganadel back in October of 2016 or something. I'm not going to go through how well Heatran has influenced most OU teams at least until recently, and I believe Ash-Greninja is forcing certain Pokemon - not just blanket checks or switch-in's, but actual checks - to be present in the team so that a transformed Ash-Greninja won't nuke something every time it comes in. The fact that discussion about bringing Ash-Greninja to S being on the table means it may be a little foolish to make a statement about its lack of influence in the tier, unless about 20+ people who brought up this topic had opium at 3 AM and decided to spend the night on Smogon.

"It has one viable set."

How does being predictable immediately lead to a threat being easier to manage? Since when predictability was one of the factors that contribute to a Pokemon's viability? It is more than widely known that Ash-Greninja can literally facilitate its sweep from Step 1 to Step 10+ with a single set. It isn't that Ash-Greninja has one set it can barely run to be effective. Ash-Greninja has been a capable wallbreaker for a long time, and I believe it is one of the threats that remained prominent for the longest period of time in SM OU with all the huge changes happening - to the point where it may not be informal to generalize that Ash-Greninja will easily grab KO against most teams with Spikes and minimal team support.

The reason why I bothered to post here is because I have been too timid to express my stance on Ash-Greninja a month ago or two, but with the discussion being the mainstream™ and a good number of people agreeing I wanted to counterargue against people who refuse to praise the mighty frog. Peace.

 

[NotInMyChristianServer]

Now that the Ash-Gren topic is the new hot thing in this thread, I would like to post my honest opinion about it:
Bring S- back and put Ash-Gren there, along other busted shit.
Both sides of the spectrum have good arguments about Ash-Gren, but none has the edge over the other: the frog isn't Heatran levels of good, but is better than almost everything in the A+ rank.
If the S- is brought back, it would look like this (not putting the entire A+ rank cuz space)

Click Here

S Rank:

S Rank

Heatran
Landorus-T

S- Rank

Greninja-Ash

Mawile (Mega)

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Alakazam (Mega)

Ferrothorn

Greninja

Magearna

Of course, this is only my opinion about the topic; but the S- rank was cutted cuz the huge gap between A+ & S and the few amount of "S- worthy mons", which still exist, so this nomination is likely to bring nothing to the table anyway.
So, to not waste this reply, I'll give my opinion about other noms:

Weavile to B: Disagree
While the drop in usage of the Lati Twins defly hurts it, the meta haven't changed that much: It's still a great pokémon with amazing coverage that's a pain in the ass to many teams without natural faster mons, like a lot of Glare Spam teams (Good matchup against both Glare users: Serp & Zyg).

Slowbro & Megabro to B- and B, respectively: Agree
Both the non-mega and the mega vers of this mon are pretty good atm. A purely physical version of Pex that's able to handle the dangerous MMedi, Zygarde and Lucha is always welcome on one's team; also it's good synergy with other Regenerator mons like Tangrowth and Torn-T & offensive movepool (Ice Beam, Scald, Fire Blast, Psyshock, etc.) makes it a exellent glue on Bulky Offense teams, which are regaining traction lately.

Chansey to A and Mega Sableye to A- (or putting both on the same rank): Agree
Ok gonna be honest: this is half of my own nom these two are the stall equivalent to Pelipper & Mega Swampert on rain. Effectively walling most of the meta if you pair them with an Unaware user, this defensive core is, was and will be an staple for the current generation until it's end (and perhaps also the next). Any player can agree that an stall team isn't complete without at least one of these two.

Azelf to Unranked: Agree
The Willpower pokémon is one of those examples of an extremly outclassed mon: Excadrill, Lando and Greninja (along with being some of the only viable suicide leads in the tier) have at least one niche that Azelf doesn't: Exca has Mold Breaker, Lando has a stronger Explosion, and Gren has both Spikes & Tspikes. There's almost nothing that this thing can do that others cannot do better.

 

[silent ghost]

I'm pretty sure why Ash-Gren isn't S-tier is not cause of how frail it is before turning into Ash. Is how you also can't bring it in on anything else with quiver dance, dragon dance also. Sure it can counter a lot of things, but even +1 quiver dance or +1 dragon dance mons don't care, since they can out speed it and just stop it in the ground. And a lot of times water shuriken only hits maybe 3-4 times at most, which still a lot of times isn't enough to take out mons with dragon dance or quiver dance.

 

[Gary]

From what I’ve gathered reading other people’s post I don’t think anyone is arguing that Ash Gren is used to counter anything. It’s strictly being brought up for its offensive capabilities. Defensive utility is a bonus which is why something like Heatran is easily S rank but I think the mentality that something needs to be able to switch into stuff to be S rank is flawed reasoning. If something is offensively centralizing enough that it’s a step above pretty much everything in A+, than it should be argued for S. Also don’t really see why Shuriken pre ash is being brought up considering it’s not really used on teams to revenge kill sweepers pre transform nor is it even used as a check to boosted volc or DD Zyg anyway.

 

[AnOriginStory]

View attachment 143884View attachment 143885
Chansey to A and Mega Sableye to A- (or putting both on the same rank): Agree
Ok gonna be honest: this is half of my own nom these two are the stall equivalent to Pelipper & Mega Swampert on rain. Effectively walling most of the meta if you pair them with an Unaware user, this defensive core is, was and will be an staple for the current generation until it's end (and perhaps also the next). Any player can agree that an stall team isn't complete without at least one of these two.

Wanted to sound off on this one, as both mons deserve a rise with the increase in stall. But they absolutely should not be on the same rank, since Chansey offense/balance is a thing whereas mega-sab not on stall really isn't. Yeah I've seen a few high-ladder teams run mega-sab + volcarona, but in general I think mega sab really struggles with out its stall partners as it now has to fear a whole host of mons that can't do anything to stall teams. Also while running a different mega on stall like vena or bro comes with the huge opportunity cost of not running mega-sab on other archetypes mega-sab comes with the huge opportunity cost of not running a more offensively inclined mega. If you need bounce you're almost always better off with Mega-Diancie.

Chansey on the other hand can just about be slapped onto any team as a blob/SR setter/Ash-Gren counter. Can also provide wish and heal bell support.

 

[silent ghost]

From what I’ve gathered reading other people’s post I don’t think anyone is arguing that Ash Gren is used to counter anything. It’s strictly being brought up for its offensive capabilities. Defensive utility is a bonus which is why something like Heatran is easily S rank but I think the mentality that something needs to be able to switch into stuff to be S rank is flawed reasoning. If something is offensively centralizing enough that it’s a step above pretty much everything in A+, than it should be argued for S. Also don’t really see why Shuriken pre ash is being brought up considering it’s not really used on teams to revenge kill sweepers pre transform nor is it even used as a check to boosted volc or DD Zyg anyway.

I wasn't arguing with anyone. Why are you even bringing that up? That has nothing to do with how good ash greninja is. Why are you changing the subject to how pre-ninja is very frail. I know how powerful ash is, but it actually has to transform. And a lot of things can take hits from its attacks like tapu bulu or tangrowth, or kill it before it attacks, like scarfs, or tapu koko.

 

[Ryolain]

I wasn't arguing with anyone. Why are you even bringing that up? That has nothing to do with how good ash greninja is. Why are you changing the subject to how pre-ninja is very frail. I know how powerful ash is, but it actually has to transform. And a lot of things can take hits from its attacks like tapu bulu or tangrowth, or kill it before it attacks, like scarfs, or tapu koko.

The second part of your post is irrelevant because it’s never going to switch in on something it can’t outspeed. It’s going to come in on something slower and tankier that doesn’t want to eat a hit from it. If you switch something in that can outspeed it after it’s already switched in, it’s just going to toss down a layer of spikes and switch out, which helps wear down the things that can take its attacks from full and mitigate the difficulty of getting it to transform. Saying that 1v1 there are things that can beat it isn’t a meaningful argument because that’s not how it’s used. FWIW it also benefits from Protean mindgames prior to its ability being revealed because even a potential check like Bulu might be nervous about switching in only to eat a STAB Gunk Shot.

 

[silent ghost]

The second part of your post is irrelevant because it’s never going to switch in on something it can’t outspeed. It’s going to come in on something slower and tankier that doesn’t want to eat a hit from it. If you switch something in that can outspeed it after it’s already switched in, it’s just going to toss down a layer of spikes and switch out, which helps wear down the things that can take its attacks from full and mitigate the difficulty of getting it to transform. Saying that 1v1 there are things that can beat it isn’t a meaningful argument because that’s not how it’s used. FWIW it also benefits from Protean mindgames prior to its ability being revealed because even a potential check like Bulu might be nervous about switching in only to eat a STAB Gunk Shot.

Of course, I never said it was going to come in on something that has quiver dance or dd. I said it can't beat them, stop changing the subject.

 

[Gary]

Of course, I never said it was going to come in on something that has quiver dance or dd. I said it can't beat them, stop changing the subject.

Is how you also can't bring it in on anything else with quiver dance, dragon dance also. Sure it can counter a lot of things, but even +1 quiver dance or +1 dragon dance mons don't care, since they can out speed it and just stop it in the ground.

Look man no one is purposely trying to change the subject. The way you worded your post is just confusing because it implies that Greninja can't come in on setup sweepers which basically translates to switching into something aka counter. By saying "sure it can counter a lot of things" you are implying it can directly switch into a lot of Pokemon which is why I said what I said in my post and why Ryolain called it irrelevant. So I'd reword that part of your post to prevent people from taking out of of context otherwise you can't really get irritated at people for misunderstanding.

 

[Ryolain]

Of course, I never said it was going to come in on something that has quiver dance or dd. I said it can't beat them, stop changing the subject.

But...it’s never going to try to. I’m not changing the subject, I’m explaining why that’s not really relevant. It’s like saying Heatran shouldn’t be S because it can’t beat things with powerful Ground moves. No Pokémon is completely unbeatable, the question is how much that negates all the things it can do and what it can beat. “It has counters” isn’t an argument unless this were a suspect test and you were explaining why you’re voting no ban.

Edit: also you literally said “you can’t bring it in on things that have DD or QD” and I’m saying yes, that’s correct, but it doesn’t matter because that’s not what it’s used for anyway.

 

[AnOriginStory]

I wasn't arguing with anyone. Why are you even bringing that up? That has nothing to do with how good ash greninja is. Why are you changing the subject to how pre-ninja is very frail. I know how powerful ash is, but it actually has to transform. And a lot of things can take hits from its attacks like tapu bulu or tangrowth, or kill it before it attacks, like scarfs, or tapu koko.

Gren is frail always it isn't switching into attacks generally. Also lol no, not a lot in the game is avoiding a 2HKO from even its pre-transformed form. Pre-transformation Greninja is still dangerous as hell. Some calcs to show how hard "regular greninja" is to switch into if you aren't running pex/bulu/fini/ av tang/chansey/sap sip azu/av mag.

Some noted defensive/pivot mons that people don't use for gren and with good reason. I'm not including obvious things like lando-t:

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 157-186 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 195-231 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor-Mega: 228-268 (66.4 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 250-295 (65.2 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 249-294 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 250-295 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 224 SpD Pelipper in Rain: 175-207 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And my personal favorite:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 48 SpD Tangrowth: 265-313 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's right you can't even check regular greninja with physically defensive tangrowth.

Some "checks" that really can't come in more than a couple times or fear dark pulse hax bullshit:

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 164+ SpD Ferrothorn: 117-138 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 9.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 136-162 (32 - 38.1%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sure tapu koko can outspeed and ko it, and isn't dying to water shuriken provided its reasonably healthy, but there's no way on this earth its switching in either. Also can't revenge kill because Gren will transform and outspeed. Koko is not a good answer to gren. After transformation shuriken is killing common scarfs with just the slightest chip damage:

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 210-252 (74.7 - 89.6%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 201-237 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 80 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-Therian: 450-528 (132.7 - 155.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Some faster mons that don't really eat shuriken that well but can revenge kill if fully healthy:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 174-207 (64.2 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam-Mega: 162-192 (64.5 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Usually by the time gren is transformed (especially if it got spikes down earlier), these faster mons are inside shuriken's ko range or can force Ash-gren out once before they're inside shuriken's ko range. None of them can switch into hydro/pulse from its normal form to keep it from transforming which is why you need its true counters to keep it from transforming.

 

[Srn]

I disagree with the general movement that seems to be forming here that ash-gren is easy to get transformed when played properly, that it's always helping the team, and that it cleans house after transforming. However, any theorymonning, calc dumping, or personal experience i offer will just be repeats of things other people have already said, and those who disagree with me will just repeat the same thing they've been saying as well.
That's why I went through every single replay of OLT that was available and crunched the numbers on this transformation shit.

27 Ash gren transformations / 74+ unevolved specs gren appearances total, "+" because gren was sacked before I could really tell if ash or protean. That's about 37%, or just above 1/3 of the time.

This number is in contrast to quotes from Omari p such as

When in the history of sun/moon, has your ash gren ever had an issue getting it's kill to transform(other than chansey)?

and from Gary

I think it's definitely overblown how much transformation limits Ash's effectiveness, especially considering that like Omari P said any well played BB Gren is going to have little issue getting a kill unless you're going up against something like stall or disgusting Chansey offense. Even when Ash isn't transformed, it's still prepping itself for a late game clean by spamming Spikes and essentially wearing its switch-ins down without even needing to come in all the time to do so.

"90% of the time still find a way to get a kill." looks more like 37% according to OLT

And even when it did transform, it actually mattered around half the time. Very, very rarely did ash gren 1) actually set and keep up spikes 2) pressure its checks with these spikes 3) transform and 4) then sweep because of transformation, and the people who push for ash gren to S act like ash gren is the self sufficient machine that could do this a fair amount of the time when in reality it just doesnt.

honestly this battle is a pretty telling indicator of ash gren's most common performance in the meta. The ash gren on one Zokuru's side just gets consistently walled by tangrowth and dies when it tries to fish for flinches, and the "end game sweep" that the ash gren on zugubu royale's side performed was pretty irrelevant at that point in the game and could've been done by the remaining celesteela too.

Setting spikes isn't as free as it seems bc you always take the risk of opponent staying in and probably killing you, and attacking can often be the safer option. This combined with resilient checks like pex, bulu, and tang, consistent hazard removal from mons like torn-t and a varied assortment of more inconsistent defoggers, means that spikes is nice on paper but not that consistent or meaningful in practice.

some choice replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392608
Another example of the transformation making no real difference

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392618
good replay of how dangerous flinches can be, but transformation ultimately isnt enough

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392562
transformation matters here

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-391968
z-move ash gren showing its real power here lol

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-394426
good example of ash gren transforming and winning

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-394800
also pretty interesting where no real ash gren checks on the opposing side but it conjunction with protect slowbro+3 dark resists, even under rain it fails to transform

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-395627
However, if that same team is played poorly, ash gren can run house too

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-394451
This is a perfect example of ash gren's ideal performance, smth rarely found. Hydro pump hits sold separately.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-395478
All ash gren does for sacri here is shuriken the zyg and die late game :x

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-404270
ash gren checked by restalk zyg lol

Small shoutouts to lord ojama that man is a beast at getting his ash gren transformed lmao

Hopefully the replays i've picked out can show a neutral perspective on what ash-gren is like, and how the transformation doesnt always mean anything or how it doesn't always transform. I can't really show the numbers I put forth without holding yall hands through every single replay, and skimming them took long enough so yall have to take my word for it. And i dare yall to double check me if u wont.

I'll admit OLT isn't the most prestigious tour, but it is the most recent and biggest source of usm ou tour replays so I think that this was the best place to look. I'll also admit that I was ready for this post to show off how effective Ash-gren was if the transformation rate was above 60% or so, but the numbers talk louder than theorymonning, even if the numbers arent perfectly accurate.

If I knew of a way to analyze ladder battles for these stats I would, but sorry Omari you're just gonna have to live with a large sample of tour battles.

regarding protean

I know that with this post i'm kind of ignoring the point omari was getting at, being that the combined threat of protean+ash gren is what makes it weird to handle. To that, I would loosely compare it to Zard-x/Zard-y. In oras, there wasn't really a safe switch-in to zard between both forms, but it was still never really considered broken because you could kind of guess the zard from team structure and there were some mons that checked both that could be used as pivots. I think in usm its the same, although to a lesser extent because we're working with 122 base speed and insane coverage. You CAN use mons like celesteela, AV magearna, pex, and ferro as pivots to scout for protean or ash if it isn't obvious from teambuilds, along with other niche options like protect mons (slowbro was seen in OLT for example, mega diancie is pretty good with it too). Of course these pivots will fall to the right z-move, and pivots to both zardx/y could die to the right coverage too, but it just doesn't happen often. Thats kind of a shoddy excuse but it's still the reason the zards werent considered broken in oras, and its the reason neither gren has been suspected or anything. Despite the brokenness on paper it really isn't that bad with a proper team.

So yeah ash gren is cool in A+, and so is protean. Keep it that way.

 

[AnOriginStory]

I disagree with the general movement that seems to be forming here that ash-gren is easy to get transformed when played properly, that it's always helping the team, and that it cleans house after transforming. However, any theorymonning, calc dumping, or personal experience i offer will just be repeats of things other people have already said, and those who disagree with me will just repeat the same thing they've been saying as well.
That's why I went through every single replay of OLT that was available and crunched the numbers on this transformation shit.

27 Ash gren transformations / 74+ unevolved specs gren appearances total, "+" because gren was sacked before I could really tell if ash or protean. That's about 37%, or just above 1/3 of the time.

This number is in contrast to quotes from Omari p such as
and from Gary

"90% of the time still find a way to get a kill." looks more like 37% according to OLT

And even when it did transform, it actually mattered around half the time. Very, very rarely did ash gren 1) actually set and keep up spikes 2) pressure its checks with these spikes 3) transform and 4) then sweep because of transformation, and the people who push for ash gren to S act like ash gren is the self sufficient machine that could do this a fair amount of the time when in reality it just doesnt.

honestly this battle is a pretty telling indicator of ash gren's most common performance in the meta. The ash gren on one Zokuru's side just gets consistently walled by tangrowth and dies when it tries to fish for flinches, and the "end game sweep" that the ash gren on zugubu royale's side performed was pretty irrelevant at that point in the game and could've been done by the remaining celesteela too.

Setting spikes isn't as free as it seems bc you always take the risk of opponent staying in and probably killing you, and attacking can often be the safer option. This combined with resilient checks like pex, bulu, and tang, consistent hazard removal from mons like torn-t and a varied assortment of more inconsistent defoggers, means that spikes is nice on paper but not that consistent or meaningful in practice.

some choice replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392608
Another example of the transformation making no real difference

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392618
good replay of how dangerous flinches can be, but transformation ultimately isnt enough

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392562
transformation matters here

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-391968
z-move ash gren showing its real power here lol

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-394426
good example of ash gren transforming and winning

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-394800
also pretty interesting where no real ash gren checks on the opposing side but it conjunction with protect slowbro+3 dark resists, even under rain it fails to transform

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-395627
However, if that same team is played poorly, ash gren can run house too

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-394451
This is a perfect example of ash gren's ideal performance, smth rarely found. Hydro pump hits sold separately.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-395478
All ash gren does for sacri here is shuriken the zyg and die late game :x

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-404270
ash gren checked by restalk zyg lol

Small shoutouts to lord ojama that man is a beast at getting his ash gren transformed lmao

Hopefully the replays i've picked out can show a neutral perspective on what ash-gren is like, and how the transformation doesnt always mean anything or how it doesn't always transform. I can't really show the numbers I put forth without holding yall hands through every single replay, and skimming them took long enough so yall have to take my word for it. And i dare yall to double check me if u wont.

I'll admit OLT isn't the most prestigious tour, but it is the most recent and biggest source of usm ou tour replays so I think that this was the best place to look. I'll also admit that I was ready for this post to show off how effective Ash-gren was if the transformation rate was above 60% or so, but the numbers talk louder than theorymonning, even if the numbers arent perfectly accurate.

If I knew of a way to analyze ladder battles for these stats I would, but sorry Omari you're just gonna have to live with a large sample of tour battles.

regarding protean

I know that with this post i'm kind of ignoring the point omari was getting at, being that the combined threat of protean+ash gren is what makes it weird to handle. To that, I would loosely compare it to Zard-x/Zard-y. In oras, there wasn't really a safe switch-in to zard between both forms, but it was still never really considered broken because you could kind of guess the zard from team structure and there were some mons that checked both that could be used as pivots. I think in usm its the same, although to a lesser extent because we're working with 122 base speed and insane coverage. You CAN use mons like celesteela, AV magearna, pex, and ferro as pivots to scout for protean or ash if it isn't obvious from teambuilds, along with other niche options like protect mons (slowbro was seen in OLT for example, mega diancie is pretty good with it too). Of course these pivots will fall to the right z-move, and pivots to both zardx/y could die to the right coverage too, but it just doesn't happen often. Thats kind of a shoddy excuse but it's still the reason the zards werent considered broken in oras, and its the reason neither gren has been suspected or anything. Despite the brokenness on paper it really isn't that bad with a proper team.

So yeah ash gren is cool in A+, and so is protean. Keep it that way.

Nice work with the replays. Good examples of when it works, and when it fails. I would like to make some comments on the replays as a supporter of gren-ash into S that I think need to be pointed out:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392618
Yeah the ninja user still lost, but it's still just one dark pulse flinch off from bullshitting its way through two of its counters.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-391968
Hiye's greninja forces lati switch to ferro and Hiye doubles to heatran everytime.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-394800
Turn 20 is a choke. There is no earthly reason for JuulsRocksBurberry not to click hydro pump unless he's faced this team before and knows bro is packing spec def. (either that or gren was an unrevealed z move) specs is 2hkoing standard bro in the rain and has a chance to 2hko av mags and is ohkoing everything else on that team, especially the ttar switch-in. Really this should have been determined at team preview that nothing on that team is taking hydro in the rain, slowbro included and abused the hell out of it. Instead of waiting forever to send pelly, JuulsRock probably overthought their opponent having a ttar to change the weather.

Even if his opponent doesn't switch they have to click slack off. If transformed bro isn't shrugging off hits in the rain later as that 49% becomes 75%s and Sacri have to sack several mons just to get back to healthy enough to eat hydro. Now its true because of the burn its not going to get many off, but this battle certainly could have gone very differently.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-395627
I'm glad you posted this replay because the other matchups are: fini + ferro, tox + tang, bulu, tox, tang, tang, bulu, and tox + resttalk zyg (lol). You don't bring those mons you get destroyed by anyone who can see at team preview that ash-gren owns your team and this is a good example of it.

I will agree with you on one thing. Spikes is not THAT good on the specs set. It facillitates getting past tox and av tang which are common as hell (in tang's case definitely because of ash-gren as otherwise it would run a physical set). I think u-turn is an underrated move in the 4th slot, and something like ice beam (tang + bulu) or extrasensory (tox) wouldn't be crazy.

 

[AnOriginStory]

One last final closing argument for Ash-Greninja by me(as I think we've just about argued this to death).

This debate seems to me to be more on what qualifies as S-tier than how good is Ash-Greninja. Lando-t and heatran are great mons, but they're not as threatening as Ash-Greninja. They are however solid performers that have multiple great sets, and defensive plus offensive utility. I see lando-t on preview I think to myself: I need to know if its scarf, defensive or z-move. I see tran on preview I need to know is it packing m-storm and taunt or no. Guessing wrong can cost me a mon and the game, but that's all. I'm not losing to tran or lando as long as I can figure out quickly what it is and play accordingly. I would argue no single set by heatran or lando-t is as good as Ash-Gren's specs set, but it's difficult to compare a purely offensive mon to mons that provide both offensive and defensive utility.

I see Greninja on preview I'm thinking I need to keep my counters to this alive and well all game or it will beat me. It's not the only mon that does this (hawlucha and volcarona are two others off the top of my head), but it is the only mon that does it, that needs minimal support and no setup. To me that's an S-tier offensive threat. To others it seems that nothing short of being straight up broken justifies a fast frail mon being in S tier.

Greninja already 2HKoes like 80% of the metagame in its normal form. The list of common mons that outspeed it is short and the list of common mons that outspeed it and take water shuriken well is even shorter. Even some of its true counters: tox, tang etc. fall to smart play/hax with no additional team support. If Ash-Greninja was any better it would be broken, which is why I think it is a very deserving addition to the S-tier.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I disagree with the general movement that seems to be forming here that ash-gren is easy to get transformed when played properly, that it's always helping the team, and that it cleans house after transforming. However, any theorymonning, calc dumping, or personal experience i offer will just be repeats of things other people have already said, and those who disagree with me will just repeat the same thing they've been saying as well.
That's why I went through every single replay of OLT that was available and crunched the numbers on this transformation shit.

27 Ash gren transformations / 74+ unevolved specs gren appearances total, "+" because gren was sacked before I could really tell if ash or protean. That's about 37%, or just above 1/3 of the time.

This number is in contrast to quotes from Omari p such as
and from Gary

"90% of the time still find a way to get a kill." looks more like 37% according to OLT

And even when it did transform, it actually mattered around half the time. Very, very rarely did ash gren 1) actually set and keep up spikes 2) pressure its checks with these spikes 3) transform and 4) then sweep because of transformation, and the people who push for ash gren to S act like ash gren is the self sufficient machine that could do this a fair amount of the time when in reality it just doesnt.

honestly this battle is a pretty telling indicator of ash gren's most common performance in the meta. The ash gren on one Zokuru's side just gets consistently walled by tangrowth and dies when it tries to fish for flinches, and the "end game sweep" that the ash gren on zugubu royale's side performed was pretty irrelevant at that point in the game and could've been done by the remaining celesteela too.

Setting spikes isn't as free as it seems bc you always take the risk of opponent staying in and probably killing you, and attacking can often be the safer option. This combined with resilient checks like pex, bulu, and tang, consistent hazard removal from mons like torn-t and a varied assortment of more inconsistent defoggers, means that spikes is nice on paper but not that consistent or meaningful in practice.

some choice replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392608
Another example of the transformation making no real difference

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392618
good replay of how dangerous flinches can be, but transformation ultimately isnt enough

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-392562
transformation matters here

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-391968
z-move ash gren showing its real power here lol

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-394426
good example of ash gren transforming and winning

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-394800
also pretty interesting where no real ash gren checks on the opposing side but it conjunction with protect slowbro+3 dark resists, even under rain it fails to transform

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-395627
However, if that same team is played poorly, ash gren can run house too

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-394451
This is a perfect example of ash gren's ideal performance, smth rarely found. Hydro pump hits sold separately.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-395478
All ash gren does for sacri here is shuriken the zyg and die late game :x

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-404270
ash gren checked by restalk zyg lol

Small shoutouts to lord ojama that man is a beast at getting his ash gren transformed lmao

Hopefully the replays i've picked out can show a neutral perspective on what ash-gren is like, and how the transformation doesnt always mean anything or how it doesn't always transform. I can't really show the numbers I put forth without holding yall hands through every single replay, and skimming them took long enough so yall have to take my word for it. And i dare yall to double check me if u wont.

I'll admit OLT isn't the most prestigious tour, but it is the most recent and biggest source of usm ou tour replays so I think that this was the best place to look. I'll also admit that I was ready for this post to show off how effective Ash-gren was if the transformation rate was above 60% or so, but the numbers talk louder than theorymonning, even if the numbers arent perfectly accurate.

If I knew of a way to analyze ladder battles for these stats I would, but sorry Omari you're just gonna have to live with a large sample of tour battles.

regarding protean

I know that with this post i'm kind of ignoring the point omari was getting at, being that the combined threat of protean+ash gren is what makes it weird to handle. To that, I would loosely compare it to Zard-x/Zard-y. In oras, there wasn't really a safe switch-in to zard between both forms, but it was still never really considered broken because you could kind of guess the zard from team structure and there were some mons that checked both that could be used as pivots. I think in usm its the same, although to a lesser extent because we're working with 122 base speed and insane coverage. You CAN use mons like celesteela, AV magearna, pex, and ferro as pivots to scout for protean or ash if it isn't obvious from teambuilds, along with other niche options like protect mons (slowbro was seen in OLT for example, mega diancie is pretty good with it too). Of course these pivots will fall to the right z-move, and pivots to both zardx/y could die to the right coverage too, but it just doesn't happen often. Thats kind of a shoddy excuse but it's still the reason the zards werent considered broken in oras, and its the reason neither gren has been suspected or anything. Despite the brokenness on paper it really isn't that bad with a proper team.

So yeah ash gren is cool in A+, and so is protean. Keep it that way.

honestly you said a lot of shit but in general just said I just need an av tangrowth which rose directly bc of ash gren and is not a good mon and easily set up on.... this is what i mean by centralizing. BTW olt teams look damn near identical to each other and theres a reason for that. this shit isnt fun.

As for your protean excuse that isnt one at all actually. First off, your excuse by saying you can tell actually is a open math problem if you knew it, you'd know how wrong you are. It is unsolvable. For example, if it seems like its ash due to the team, what if the opponent actively chooses to not be ash. secondly u use tryhard af olt as an example and their teams damn near are identical and tryhard by definition like come dude stop the dick riding lmao. all of those mons u named I have to use???? like REALLY? and they aren't even good pivots at that like come on dude. you are better than this bullshit. Also the having to guess between the 2 is broken actually, and people mentioned that before and I as a zard user know that shit. However neither form a zard is broken so it's overlooked. In fact ur comparison is a fallacy, just b/c something is doesnt mean that it should be or taken as law. Also ash gren is on BOTH TEAMS IN HALF UR REPLAYS AND WINS

 

[Not Miyan]

I am kind of agreeing on rising ash gren to S. On one hand ash has little or no versatility (is what some people think to keep it from S) but on the other side. It can literally beat any team which doesn't have chansey on it. But the amount of pressure it generates is rediculous rather with spikes or with ice beam or even rare gunk shot.

I like ice beam on gren cuz it helps me to keep grasses in check tho spikes are the best option. Here some calculations that Grasses are not a safe switch ins.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Ice Beam vs. 224 HP / 216+ SpD Tapu Bulu: 192-228 (56.9 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery (tho bulu can get recovery by leftovers, terrain and protect but it can not repeatedly switch in)

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 272-322 (83.6 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (pretty straightforward)

Now if you're running gunk shot then you'd keep fini in check

0 Atk Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 146-174 (42.5 - 50.7%) -- 46.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (almost 50% chance to kill fini after rocks)

The only thing that it struggles to defeat 1v1 is toxapex (ignoring chansey here) because they have started running Bunker to get some recovery and to compensate if dark pulse flinches and if gren tries go for spikes then it might get toxic'd which could be really crucial. Even though gren can muscle through pex with flinches.

Gren also can run u-turn to grab momentum tho not the best option but definitely viable. Assume they switch in pex onto gren and you u-turn on it and go to some heavy wall breaker like lele, hoops etc. and then opponent might have to sack something to preserve pex and preventing gren from transforming later.

Z crystal are also viable option on the gren again not the best but still effective.
Water Z is really good on rain teams
A scenario assuming that opponent have mage as primary gren check and you have successfully got sr and a layer spikes on field.
252 SpA Greninja Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Rain: 172-204 (47.3 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Rain: 103-123 (28.3 - 33.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

So the total damage would be (assuming lowest rolls both times) 47.3+28.3+12.5+6.25=94.6% and if you have something like your own shift gear mag on your team then this is worth or with very little chip gren can check it's own checks.

These are all the viable options which gren can effectively run with success. Tho spikes and ice beam are the best but still gren offers some utility in u-turn and z moves which could be beneficial to it's own teammates.

To sum up, gren has other viable options to run which shows its versatility and could surprise opponent and offers some utility as well. So it should rise to S

 

[AnOriginStory]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-829531726

Just wanted to post a realistic mid-high ladder ash-gren experience (a tilt run kicked me down to the 1600s, I'll be back to my normal 1750-1850 range in short order) to give a different view than OLT where ash-gren and its counters are in every battle. My opponent is clearly competent (not great) and has a team that is moderately prepared for ash-gren with a mega vena and a toxapex. I stupidly sack mamo giving them an advantage early in the game. From that point onwards I work towards gren sweep by first weakening mega-vena and then trapping and killing pex (shout out to my man azu). At which point gren completely flips the game with no setup just its counters weakened and cleans through the entire team.

The reason I post this is most of the discussion on ash-gren has been relative to high ladder/tournament play where people overprep for it and play near perfectly. If your opponent isn't overprepped it cleans up. If your opponent doesn't live and breathe mons and makes mistakes it cleans up. If its non-regen checks are weakened sufficiently it cleans up. If your opponent only brought one of tox or tang and lose it to another mon it cleans up.

 

[Leo]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-829531726

Just wanted to post a realistic mid-high ladder ash-gren experience (a tilt run kicked me down to the 1600s, I'll be back to my normal 1750-1850 range in short order) to give a different view than OLT where ash-gren and its counters are in every battle. My opponent is clearly competent (not great) and has a team that is moderately prepared for ash-gren with a mega vena and a toxapex. I stupidly sack mamo giving them an advantage early in the game. From that point onwards I work towards gren sweep by first weakening mega-vena and then trapping and killing pex (shout out to my man azu). At which point gren completely flips the game with no setup just its counters weakened and cleans through the entire team.

The reason I post this is most of the discussion on ash-gren has been relative to high ladder/tournament play where people overprep for it and play near perfectly. If your opponent isn't overprepped it cleans up. If your opponent doesn't live and breathe mons and makes mistakes it cleans up. If its non-regen checks are weakened sufficiently it cleans up. If your opponent only brought one of tox or tang and lose it to another mon it cleans up.

If you’re trying to make a point in favor of an Ash Gren rise due to its performance in a low skill cap environment then you won’t get anywhere. I’m not going to break down your replay to explain why competent is an overstatement for your opponent because I think you’re aware of the fact that he only lost because he threw his Ash Gren counters (which appears to be your point(?), I just wanna clarify that showing off a replay where someone chokes and gets swept by Ash Gren doesn’t help your argument and I don’t think the vr council has ever taken into consideration mid-ladder skill cap improving the performance of a sweeper or any mon when considering a rise.

 

[AnOriginStory]

If you’re trying to make a point in favor of an Ash Gren rise due to its performance in a low skill cap environment then you won’t get anywhere. I’m not going to break down your replay to explain why competent is an overstatement for your opponent because I think you’re aware of the fact that he only lost because he threw his Ash Gren counters (which appears to be your point(?), I just wanna clarify that showing off a replay where someone chokes and gets swept by Ash Gren doesn’t help your argument and I don’t think the vr council has ever taken into consideration mid-ladder skill cap improving the performance of a sweeper or any mon when considering a rise.

The point I was trying to make isn't that it needs a low skill opponent to function (it's not cloyster lol). But, that the margin of error against it is small, to the point where you need to be well prepped and play nearly perfectly against it to prevent it from destroying you. That absolutely should be taken into account. We've discussed ad nauseum how it can beat its counters under the right circumstances with high quality play. I used a mid-ladder replay, because well that's what I had available to me at the moment and I wanted to make this point.

My opponent does not play that badly, and competence is not an overstatement. He plays mega-ttar about as well as he could. They're are some scenarios where he comes out ahead of where he did, but they require making the right predicts. His big blunder is not swapping out tox when I switch in azu, but I have a bunch of high ladder replays from two pages ago showing how a lot of people get trapped by azu trying to prevent a belly drum. After that he might have been able to fanagle his lando and vena such that it was possible to get a synthesis off but there's not much more he can do.

 

[Finchinator]

-->

Greninja-Ash from A+ to S.

Ash Greninja has been a staple in the metagame for as long as I can remember, solidifying itself as a clear A+ level threat. However, I feel that it recently has gotten significantly better, especially thanks to how common the "cheese" hyper offensive teams have become, how predictable and restricted counterplay to it is, and how it consistently makes progress, asserting its impact either with brute force offensively or through setting up Spikes earlier on in games.

I feel like this has been argued to death, so I will try not to go full-on essay, but I think that Ash Greninja fits on to an absurdly high amount of teams right now. Need something to clean out and consistently threaten offense while having a great speed tier? Ash Greninja is the definition of that. Need something to pressure balanced cores early in games? Ash Greninja is perfect for doing this, especially seeing as it can bluff Protean the first time it can come in. This overlaps with the last question a bit given Spikes impact, but need an offensive Spike setter? Ash Greninja is again easily the best with this. These and many more positive, practical labels can be used to describe what Ash Greninja brings to the table. Nothing else brings to the table such a consistently dynamic, progress making presence to the tier. Sure, it is frail and the SDef Grass types that are spammed pressure it, but I'm not arguing for Ash Greninja to be banned -- it's not outright broken. It's just a top tier Pokemon that is incredible at doing its job, supporting teams, etc. It is a pretty clear-cut rise to S for me.

---

-->

Alakazam-Mega from A+ to A

Mega Alakazam is still good, but it has definitely fallen off a bit lately. At one point, I would label it as metagame defining and perhaps the top mega in the tier, but now it clearly has taken a backseat to Mega Mawile and perhaps Mega Medicham (eh, they're probably on par for me, but Mega Medicham is a lot less manageable for balanced rn, especially considering how hesitant people are to use Clefable given how it enables Mega Mawile). Anyway, ultimate point being is that Mega Alakazam is still "really good", but it's nowhere near top tier or metagame defining anymore. I would rank it below everything in A+, but above almost everything in A, so that leaves me at a bit of a crossroads. Thing is that A+ is supposed to be pretty selective and show the true top Pokemon in the metagame, so I think that leaning towards the lower subrank is ideal in the spirit of the VR here, so I propose for it to go A.

---

Some other nominations:

• 
  from A to A-: Mega Scizor does not see a ton of usage right now and I think it will always be a nice utility pivot/win condition on balance, but the metagame just is not overly favorable to it right now, especially given the competition in the mega slot, the fact that Magnezone is relatively common, and the lack of breaking prowess it has relative to alternatives.
• 
  from A to A-: This one is probably surprising and perhaps not considered at all by most people, but hear me out. Despite having a noteworthy presence as a screens/terrain setter on some HOs, Tapu Koko's offensive presence on normal teams has diminished a ton lately. The Defog variant is still passable, but even that is losing steam. Pure offensive Z/Shuca sets are hardly seen anymore in tournaments and Specs has not been seen in forever. I really feel like Tapu Koko is falling off and just not too great atm. It is hard walled by too many common things, tbh.
• 
  from B- to C+: This thing is pretty much completely unused atm. I would rather use Blace on pretty much every set besides the gimmicky, team dependent Z-Hex set that awkwardly never really caught on. I just cannot justify using it much and I think it should drop more, so yea.

 

[AnOriginStory]

Some other nominations:

• 
  from A to A-: Mega Scizor does not see a ton of usage right now and I think it will always be a nice utility pivot/win condition on balance, but the metagame just is not overly favorable to it right now, especially given the competition in the mega slot, the fact that Magnezone is relatively common, and the lack of breaking prowess it has relative to alternatives.
• 
  from A to A-: This one is probably surprising and perhaps not considered at all by most people, but hear me out. Despite having a noteworthy presence as a screens/terrain setter on some HOs, Tapu Koko's offensive presence on normal teams has diminished a ton lately. The Defog variant is still passable, but even that is losing steam. Pure offensive Z/Shuca sets are hardly seen anymore in tournaments and Specs has not been seen in forever. I really feel like Tapu Koko is falling off and just not too great atm. It is hard walled by too many common things, tbh.
• 
  from B- to C+: This thing is pretty much completely unused atm. I would rather use Blace on pretty much every set besides the gimmicky, team dependent Z-Hex set that awkwardly never really caught on. I just cannot justify using it much and I think it should drop more, so yea.

Interesting set of noms:

Scizor drop is appropriate in my opinion. It's still dangerous but flawed and the metagame seems particularly unfavorable to it right now with celesteela being used a ton and things like lando-t z sets making a bit of a comeback.

No way should tapu koko drop. Koko + lucha is everywhere and very very dangerous.

Gengar being ranked seems too high to me, but I guess it has some niches over blace.

 

[Finchinator]

No way should tapu koko drop. Koko + lucha is everywhere and very very dangerous.

That seems like a pretty poor, one dimensional argument. Hawlucha usage has dropped significantly, going from a premier win condition and high pressure threat on HO to something used pretty sporadically with more counterplay than ever.

In addition, my post still acknowledged that Tapu Koko had a clear use as a screens/terrain setter on HO, but it’s more the lack of offensive presence, consistent usage, and effectiveness on the more standardized sets (Defog, Shuca, Z, etc) that has decreased that leads to it dropping. Tapu Koko is often countered by so many common things and the appeal of using it is essentially diminished to fast Uturn that checks TornT on balanced teams at this point.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

That seems like a pretty poor, one dimensional argument. Hawlucha usage has dropped significantly, going from a premier win condition and high pressure threat on HO to something used pretty sporadically with more counterplay than ever.

In addition, my post still acknowledged that Tapu Koko had a clear use as a screens/terrain setter on HO, but it’s more the lack of offensive presence, consistent usage, and effectiveness on the more standardized sets (Defog, Shuca, Z, etc) that has decreased that leads to it dropping. Tapu Koko is often countered by so many common things and the appeal of using it is essentially diminished to fast Uturn that checks TornT on balanced teams at this point.

I think it's good to explain specifically what you mean by drop in usage. Are you referring to tour - which im almost certain you are - or ladder? B/c if ur referring to ladder.... I got some news for you



edit: bro i been asking this shit for years and they just love riding tour dick like goddamn lmao AnOriginStory

 

[Finchinator]

I think it's good to explain specifically what you mean by drop in usage. Are you referring to tour - which im almost certain you are - or ladder? B/c if ur referring to ladder.... I got some news for you

Tournament usage although I believe ladder usage is only stabilized because of the screens/HO support. Either way, I think we can all agree Tapu Koko is common on the ladder, but I also think we can all agree KokoLucha has seen much better days, specifically earlier this year