I get what you're saying, but the rest of the sentence that you cut out talks about how I doubt that Mega Garchomp's viability changed so much that it should shoot all the way up from C- to B+ of all rankings (which Gyarados just so happens to sit at right now, btw).
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Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Finchinator
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In general ddance mence is outclassed by gyarados, which does just about anything mence would want to do better, while playing mind games at preview. Mence is a little faster and a little stronger but has worse typing and bulk. If mence is to be ranked it should be because of its wish pass bulky sets which while not great are useable and somewhat unique.
Mob Barley I know you're a great player and that ddance mence can steamroll teams. Just since Gyarados can run literally the same exact set with sub bounce equake ddance and in my opinion does it better than mence because of its typing and special bulk, I'd like to know in what particular matchups mence excels that gyarados doesn't.
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I'm going to have to request replays on high ladder for you to actually prove this.
While I have seen Mob use this set and I'm sure he'll have replays on the set, I have serious doubts on WishMence since it's a set that hasn't really (if ever) been used since DPP.
I feel that Loppuny has always demonstrated the value of a faster Pokemon and yet it's so underappreciated since it might not be the strongest Mega around but it still does solid damage, while this mon finds itself mostly on hazard stack teams as they help Loppuny wearing down bulkier threats; now with the metagame taking a more offensive approach most of Pokemon lack of reliable recovery giving Loppuny the room that it needed to work perfectly without relying on the hazards support, a proof of this is ABR vs Empo in stours playoffs. Loppuny is also one of the few megas capable to come in repeatedly times during a battle doing significant damage in order to increase the odds of a late game Return/HJK sweep. All that said, I don't see why this Pokemon should remain in B+ when it definitely deserves to rise.
I support Ske's argument regarding Mega Latios so I will make it short. I'd like to add that it's entirely outclassed by the other Psychic-types in the tier like Tapu Lele and Mega Alakazam which is why its viability has decreased and it's susceptible to get crippled quite easily affecting its effectiveness while also losing momentum on the forced Roosts, which is why I personally wouldn't let Latios take the mega slot when there are better options for this.
I've mainly seen it used on the one trick room team (which also features stakataka, deep sea tooth clamperl and mega banette so clearly a player that likes to use underused mons) but has been on the high ladder for a few weeks now. I've seen some other players use it but can't remember their screennames. In the early days of building my steelix team I used it and it was ok, but not something I would recommend. I don't really care if mence gets ranked on it or not, but its definitely a unique thing that only mence can do. It plays similar to a zapdos that can wish.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-824899030 (checks zygarde, koes torn)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-824895985 (vs. me it takes out my toxapex because I underestimated its power, also a good mega-steelix replay)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-824894233 (checks zygarde again which seems to be its main niche on this team)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-825344378 (kills gliscor in a loss)
I'm not trying to put mence over Gyarados, I only want it at C-. Although to answer your question its speed tier allows it to beat some mentioned common scarfers like lele and landorus after +1. Looking aside its worth on paper, in gameplay Ive found it to be a bit more unpredictable than say Gyarados which is more one dimensional. Surprise element goes a long way in games, and a sub set like this tends to throw people off balance which is invaluable imo
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Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
Alright let's do this. I am nominating Toucannon from UR->C+.
I am almost certain many of you know don't know this mon very well so here's some background..
BackgroundI am almost certain many of you know don't know this mon very well so here's some background..
Flying/Normal
80/120/75/75/75/60
Now most notably is obviously the 120 attack but also the 75 spa and moderate 80/75/75 bulk. It's not SUPER bulky but with a lackluster 60 base speed you're more than likely running max hp and oh my gawd you live lmao and KO so really nice mons. It's movesets actually has some REALLY nice moves as well and one of the few birds with set up.
Abilities: Sheer Force & Skill Link
Notable Moves
Phys Attacking: Brave Bird, Knock Off, Gunk Shot, UTurn, Flame Charge, Seeds, Beak Blast, Brick Break, & Rock Blast
Special Attacking: Boomburst, Heat Wave
Setup: Roost, Swords Dance, Work Up
As you can see it's one of the few birds to get Swords dance and off a 120 base attack that shit is going to do some MAJOR damage like oml. You also have a pretty viable mixed set with heat wave or boomburst and work up maybe. You have to know what you're going to hit and think but it's really useful and versatile, I came to like it. Like running skill link and rock blast has insane value as zapdos is not a switch in at all, matter of fact if ur at +1 you actually oko it from full (the defense set) and discharge does not kill you.
Notable Kos
- Torn
- Clef (+1)
- Zapdos (+1)
- Ferro (+1 heatwave)
Discussion on what you live. You're actually naturally pretty bulky and you live and revenge ko a plethora of this tier's attackers. You live a psychic from lele in terrain and oko back. You live a dark pulse from ash gren specs out, You live a torn t z hurricane, you live discharge, and even a stone edge from lando. As you probably have come to realize, this has some real potential to fuck some shit up for real granted that you know what you want to hit and do it well, and once you do that the touCANNON is released. I do not recommend sheer force unless you're running heatwave otherwise definitely run skill link and use the rock blast.
Notable Sets: Band, LO, Z crystal, Leftovers, Lum Berry
My Main Moveset (team dependant make your own but this okos zapdos)
Toucannon @ Choice Band
Ability: Skill Link
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 228 HP / 252 Atk / 28 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Rock Blast
- Gunk Shot/Brick Break
- Knock Off
Why use it over others?
it really has no other mon that does the same thing other than staraptor to which these 2 are vastly different mons oml lets just say play style differences.... Id gues braviary is a close second and to that I'd just say skill link sets it apart as well as SD
And lastly... don't be a loser the bird is watching
replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-825625827 - fucking work
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-825539116
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-825535219 ate that fucking discharge
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-825533596 like i said it lives
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-825523719 - straight up countered and anti lead shuckle, okod it with multi hit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-825521599 - fucking ate that +1 dclaw like a boss
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-825516071
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-825513657
if i could turn back time.... if i could find a way.... I'd get some of you laid.........
edit suggested by Srn : if you run beak blast, you actually can discourage uturn on lando and if it uturns itll get burned
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I might seem crazy.. but I would nominate Mamoswine to B+ from B.
Its hard-hitting Ice/Ground STAB combo is very strong now in the current meta.
Being able to Threaten Several S-A Ranking mons Landorus-T, Heatran, Bulu, Tantgrowth, Toxapex, Gliscor, Zygarde and the rising in usage again Garchomp and posibilly unboosted M-Mawlie..even though it cannot necesarly switch-in safely on most of them it can be one of the most effective revenge killers right now.
EDIT. As Adapt or Die said.. can also be effective for Koko and Tornadus-T.....altough it has to beware Flyium-Z Hurricane.
I have been messing with CB and Icium-Z sets and have beem sucessful with both
Its hard-hitting Ice/Ground STAB combo is very strong now in the current meta.
Being able to Threaten Several S-A Ranking mons Landorus-T, Heatran, Bulu, Tantgrowth, Toxapex, Gliscor, Zygarde and the rising in usage again Garchomp and posibilly unboosted M-Mawlie..even though it cannot necesarly switch-in safely on most of them it can be one of the most effective revenge killers right now.
EDIT. As Adapt or Die said.. can also be effective for Koko and Tornadus-T.....altough it has to beware Flyium-Z Hurricane.
I have been messing with CB and Icium-Z sets and have beem sucessful with both
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Agreed Mamo is very anti-meta right now (pretty much the statement for any period of mamo being good), and I would add tapu koko, torn-t and mage to that list. Ice ground stab with decent bulk and priority is amazing. I recommend trying groundium z instead of icium. Gets some koes that earthquake just doesn't.
Completely agreed. I've nominated Mence in the past and the fact is Mence can easily steamroll balanced and offensive teams with minimal support. Yeah Gyara sets up easier vs Lando T and has better typing and bulk but Mence's speed and power means it at least deserves a spot on the board. Just ridiculous its UR when it can fuckin end teams at the drop of a hat. +1 for using Sub too since it's so lit when you sub on status or hazards or leech seed or w.e and then you get a free DD when they scramble to find an answer.
I'd like to nominate Mandibuzz
from UR to C+
Although I profoundly believe B tier more accurately represents its viability, C tier appears to be where the miscellaneous stall niche dump resides.
I've been testing variants of Mandibuzz stall since last year, and I'm honestly surprised with how criminally under explored the benefits of Mandibuzz are to the stall archetype. This is not just the Omari P meme bird; it's amalgamatory and compressing of several key defenisve roles that stall teams deseperately need, in this meta particularly.
Major advantages of Mandibuzz stall:
- 1A: Walls Band Zygarde. No other defogger even comes close to this. Band Zygarde also 2hko all unawares + Max Def Tangrowth
- 2A: Walls and threatens Mega Charizard-X, a notable stall threat that decimates quagsire and pyuk based stalls through Outrage. If clefable is your unaware wall then you're pretty much fucked no matter what. I.E, every unaware user is threatened by Charzard-X in some way or another, therefore a defogger that easily man handles it while managing other stall threats is phenomenal.
-3A: Threatens A-Marowak. A-Marowak is infamously annoying to stall as frequent defense drops via Shadow Bone turns 3hkos on Unawares into easy 2hhkos. Since Quagsire and Pyuk have to first switch in, and then recover spam up on A-Marowak it is very easy for alola wak inflict a crippling defense drop eventually. As your bird on Stall tends to be your secondary physical defense pivot there exists inherent openings for alola wak to threaten the rest of your stall team as no other defensive bird/ground immune defogger can handle it reliably.
Mandibuzz outspeeds alola wak therefore negating setup opportunities, and if you've elected to use Big Pecks as its ability then it's even more certain to wall its attacks.
-4A: Walls Adamant Choice Band Hoopa-U. This is the crowning benefit of Mandibuzz Stall. CB Hoopa is incredibly under-prepared for on Stall with answers to it being incredibly niche or haphazard to the cohesiveness of the overall stall build. If you're lucky enough with FB misses then it can even handle hoopa's specs variant with ease, or at the very least, increase prediction stress on the specs Hoopa user (between choosing Sab, Chans, and Madi etc.). Mandibuzz similarly pressures a specs lele user's prediction. Protect Mandbiuzz helps achieve this with a secondary benefit to soak incoming boosted physical z-damage. I have other prepared answers on stall for Hoopa but I'd rather keep those to myself
-5A: Soft (sometimes hard) checks Blacephelon. Blace is another "anti-stall" pick, yet Mandibuzz walls and ohkos unboosted Blace with ease. A blace user is unlikely to pivot it in on Mandibuzz defogging, unlike all other defoggers it favours to. Mandibuzz laughs off even boosted Z-shadow ball from Blace.
-6A: Can check Band Crawdaunt, especially if knock off is carried on Mandibuzz or is used earlier by another member of your team.
-7A: Overcoat allows it retain its leftovers healing in hazardous weathers, unlike Zapdos. You wll very rarely see spore or stun spore, but overcoat is helpful even in those circumstances. It's other useful ability, Big Pecks, helps it to wall attacks that other defoggers or unawares struggle with, such as shadow bone and liquidation/crabhammer.
Other random stuff: A mixed or SpD spread walls specs normal greninja and can defog on it; Iron Defense variants with Rocky Helm can wall and eventually straight out OHKO m-mawile through foul play and helm recoil -- unlike Iron Defense Skarm which fears a magnet trapper paired with Mawile. Z-Ground lures in and trashes incoming Heatran and Mawile.
mods: I have to go rn but I'll post calcs and replays later tonight, just wanted the bulk explanation out of the way first.
Replays (had to dig since I don't like showing new teams):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-738742579 Hoopa-U
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-740845367 Screens Zygarde
Although I profoundly believe B tier more accurately represents its viability, C tier appears to be where the miscellaneous stall niche dump resides.
I've been testing variants of Mandibuzz stall since last year, and I'm honestly surprised with how criminally under explored the benefits of Mandibuzz are to the stall archetype. This is not just the Omari P meme bird; it's amalgamatory and compressing of several key defenisve roles that stall teams deseperately need, in this meta particularly.
Major advantages of Mandibuzz stall:
- 1A: Walls Band Zygarde. No other defogger even comes close to this. Band Zygarde also 2hko all unawares + Max Def Tangrowth
- 2A: Walls and threatens Mega Charizard-X, a notable stall threat that decimates quagsire and pyuk based stalls through Outrage. If clefable is your unaware wall then you're pretty much fucked no matter what. I.E, every unaware user is threatened by Charzard-X in some way or another, therefore a defogger that easily man handles it while managing other stall threats is phenomenal.
-3A: Threatens A-Marowak. A-Marowak is infamously annoying to stall as frequent defense drops via Shadow Bone turns 3hkos on Unawares into easy 2hhkos. Since Quagsire and Pyuk have to first switch in, and then recover spam up on A-Marowak it is very easy for alola wak inflict a crippling defense drop eventually. As your bird on Stall tends to be your secondary physical defense pivot there exists inherent openings for alola wak to threaten the rest of your stall team as no other defensive bird/ground immune defogger can handle it reliably.
Mandibuzz outspeeds alola wak therefore negating setup opportunities, and if you've elected to use Big Pecks as its ability then it's even more certain to wall its attacks.
-4A: Walls Adamant Choice Band Hoopa-U. This is the crowning benefit of Mandibuzz Stall. CB Hoopa is incredibly under-prepared for on Stall with answers to it being incredibly niche or haphazard to the cohesiveness of the overall stall build. If you're lucky enough with FB misses then it can even handle hoopa's specs variant with ease, or at the very least, increase prediction stress on the specs Hoopa user (between choosing Sab, Chans, and Madi etc.). Mandibuzz similarly pressures a specs lele user's prediction. Protect Mandbiuzz helps achieve this with a secondary benefit to soak incoming boosted physical z-damage. I have other prepared answers on stall for Hoopa but I'd rather keep those to myself
-5A: Soft (sometimes hard) checks Blacephelon. Blace is another "anti-stall" pick, yet Mandibuzz walls and ohkos unboosted Blace with ease. A blace user is unlikely to pivot it in on Mandibuzz defogging, unlike all other defoggers it favours to. Mandibuzz laughs off even boosted Z-shadow ball from Blace.
-6A: Can check Band Crawdaunt, especially if knock off is carried on Mandibuzz or is used earlier by another member of your team.
-7A: Overcoat allows it retain its leftovers healing in hazardous weathers, unlike Zapdos. You wll very rarely see spore or stun spore, but overcoat is helpful even in those circumstances. It's other useful ability, Big Pecks, helps it to wall attacks that other defoggers or unawares struggle with, such as shadow bone and liquidation/crabhammer.
Other random stuff: A mixed or SpD spread walls specs normal greninja and can defog on it; Iron Defense variants with Rocky Helm can wall and eventually straight out OHKO m-mawile through foul play and helm recoil -- unlike Iron Defense Skarm which fears a magnet trapper paired with Mawile. Z-Ground lures in and trashes incoming Heatran and Mawile.
Replays (had to dig since I don't like showing new teams):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-738742579 Hoopa-U
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-740845367 Screens Zygarde
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Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
I cannot echo this nom enough, and if you need replays I have troughs of them. Mandibuzz is also moderately fast and can outspeed and stop several bulky setup mons on their tracks or just toxic them before they sub. it also of one of the best defoggers in the tier and can run either defensive, spdef, or mix, all are dumb annoying. it's honestly harder to kill than skarm and u can straight up wall out banded ttars by roosting before it hits. Also I agree, it definitely should be B tierI'd like to nominate Mandibuzzfrom UR to C+
Although I believe it should reside in B tier, C tier seems to be where the miscellaneous niche stall dump seems to be.
I've been testing variants of Mandibuzz stall since last year, and I'm honestly surprised with how criminally under explored the benefits of Mandibuzz are to the stall archetype.
Major advantages of Mandibuzz stall:
- 1A: Walls Band Zygarde. No other defogger even comes close to this. Band Zygarde also 2hko all unawares + Max Def Tangrowth
- 2A: Walls and threatens Mega Charizard-X, a notable stall threat that decimates quagsire and pyuk based stalls through Outrage. If clefable is your unaware wall then you're pretty much fucked no matter what.
- 3A: Threatens A-Marowak. A-Marowak is infamously annoying to stall as frequent defense drops via Shadow Bone turns 3hkos on Unawares into easy 2hhkos. Since Quagsire and Pyuk have to heal up on A-Marowak it is very easy for alola wak inflict a crippling defense drop eventually. As your bird on Stall tends to be your seconday physical defense pivot there exists inherent openings for alola wak to threaten the rest of your stall team as no other defensive bird/ground immune defogger can wall it reliably.
Mandibuzz outspeeds alola wak therefore negating setup opportunities, and if you've elected to use Big Pecks as its ability then it's even more certain to wall its attacks.
-4A: Walls Adamant Choice Band Hoopa-U. This is the crowning benefit of Mandibuzz Stall. CB Hoopa is incredibly under-prepared for on Stall with answers to it being incredibly niche for the most part. If you're lucky enough with FB misses then it can even handle hoopa's specs variant with ease, or at the very least, increase prediction stress on the specs Hoopa user (between choosing Sab, Chans, and Madi etc.).
-5C: Soft (sometimes hard) checks Blacephelon. Blace is another "anti-stall" pick, yet Mandibuzz walls and ohkos unboosted Blace with ease. A blace user is unlikely to pivot it in on Mandibuzz defogging, unlike as it would usually with other defoggers.
-6C: Can check Band Crawdaunt, especially if knock off is carried on Mandibuzz or is used earlier by another member of your team.
-6C: Overcoat allows it retain its leftovers healing in Sandstorm, unlike Zapdos. You wll very rarely see spore or stun spore, but overcoat is helpful even in those circumstances. It's other useful ability, Big Pecks, helps it to wall attacks that other defoggers struggle with, such as shadow bone and liquidation/crabhammer.
mods: I have to go rn but I'll post calcs and replays later tonight, just wanted the bulk explanation out of the way first.
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My redone nomination: Toxicroak UR-<C
The set :
Ability: Dry Skin
Item: Life orb
Moves:
-Swords dance
-Drain punch
-Gunk shot
-Sucker punch /Ice punch
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 attack/ 252 Speed/4 HP
Toxicroak is an overlooked pokemon on rain with quite a few desirable qualities; it walls toxapex thanks to dry skin and an immunity to toxic, and its even able to remove toxic spikes set up on the team by pex. Like qwilfish, it also removes usual rain checks like tangrowth, tapu bulu, gastrodon, and ferrothorn with its stab moves, and can even set up on them with swords dance, possibly allowing it to sweep. Sucker punch can remove things faster than it while ice punch can beat landorus which often switches into it.
Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-837213308
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-837088649
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-837151941
The set :
Ability: Dry Skin
Item: Life orb
Moves:
-Swords dance
-Drain punch
-Gunk shot
-Sucker punch /Ice punch
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 attack/ 252 Speed/4 HP
Toxicroak is an overlooked pokemon on rain with quite a few desirable qualities; it walls toxapex thanks to dry skin and an immunity to toxic, and its even able to remove toxic spikes set up on the team by pex. Like qwilfish, it also removes usual rain checks like tangrowth, tapu bulu, gastrodon, and ferrothorn with its stab moves, and can even set up on them with swords dance, possibly allowing it to sweep. Sucker punch can remove things faster than it while ice punch can beat landorus which often switches into it.
Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-837213308
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-837088649
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-837151941
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I support this nom but I don't think this post shows the full qualities croak has. It does mention this thing completely shuts down anything pex can do, but croak also offers a decent ash gren switchin due to dry skin and resisting pulse, which is a major boon considering how few gren checks actually fit on offensive teams. It's typing also allows it to switch in to bulu, which is great considering how popular that is atm. Also I'm not sure life orb is that great on croak since you don't really want to chip it if possible (it's fine if you're using it on rain tho), something like black sludge or z move seems more fitting imo to either give it more longevity or break through tankier mons if you're using this as more of a sweeper. It can also be tailored to your needs quite a lot, with sucker for priority or ice punch to hit zyg/lando etc, even EQ to remove pex rather than just wall it. Overall, Croak is a cool antimeta pick right now and I think it deserves a rank to reflect that.
Also supporting the mandibuzz nom, not sure why it's not already ranked tbh with the amount of defensive utility it has, the original nom went in to enough detail here so I won't add any more.
Admittedly, my team was experimental to test the viability of seismitoad and toxicroak in ou, but that's not the point. The point of a nomination is to show what one pokemon can do for a whole team, rather than a whole team can do for it. And Toxicroak certainly showed its niche in those replays.
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I'm going to have to disagree with this line of reasoning. Being hard to fit on a team is a reason for a mon to not be ranked highly but not for it to be unranked. C-tier is pretty much "This has a niche but isn't easy to use on a good team tier." If toxicroak and mandibuzz have valuable niches to their respective archetypes they should be ranked. I'm leaning yes on mandibuzz and no on toxicroak, but that might just be reflecting my biases as a player and that I'm currently doing a deep dive on playing stall where hoopa-u and crawdaunt are absolute nightmares to face.
I'd like to nominate Mandibuzzfrom UR to C+
Although I profoundly believe B tier more accurately represents its viability, C tier appears to be where the miscellaneous stall niche dump resides.
I've been testing variants of Mandibuzz stall since last year, and I'm honestly surprised with how criminally under explored the benefits of Mandibuzz are to the stall archetype. This is not just the Omari P meme bird; it's amalgamatory and compressing of several key defenisve roles that stall teams deseperately need, in this meta particularly.
Major advantages of Mandibuzz stall:
- 1A: Walls Band Zygarde. No other defogger even comes close to this. Band Zygarde also 2hko all unawares + Max Def Tangrowth
- 2A: Walls and threatens Mega Charizard-X, a notable stall threat that decimates quagsire and pyuk based stalls through Outrage. If clefable is your unaware wall then you're pretty much fucked no matter what. I.E, every unaware user is threatened by Charzard-X in some way or another, therefore a defogger that easily man handles it while managing other stall threats is phenomenal.
-3A: Threatens A-Marowak. A-Marowak is infamously annoying to stall as frequent defense drops via Shadow Bone turns 3hkos on Unawares into easy 2hhkos. Since Quagsire and Pyuk have to first switch in, and then recover spam up on A-Marowak it is very easy for alola wak inflict a crippling defense drop eventually. As your bird on Stall tends to be your secondary physical defense pivot there exists inherent openings for alola wak to threaten the rest of your stall team as no other defensive bird/ground immune defogger can handle it reliably.
Mandibuzz outspeeds alola wak therefore negating setup opportunities, and if you've elected to use Big Pecks as its ability then it's even more certain to wall its attacks.
-4A: Walls Adamant Choice Band Hoopa-U. This is the crowning benefit of Mandibuzz Stall. CB Hoopa is incredibly under-prepared for on Stall with answers to it being incredibly niche or haphazard to the cohesiveness of the overall stall build. If you're lucky enough with FB misses then it can even handle hoopa's specs variant with ease, or at the very least, increase prediction stress on the specs Hoopa user (between choosing Sab, Chans, and Madi etc.). Mandibuzz similarly pressures a specs lele user's prediction. Protect Mandbiuzz helps achieve this with a secondary benefit to soak incoming boosted physical z-damage. I have other prepared answers on stall for Hoopa but I'd rather keep those to myself
-5A: Soft (sometimes hard) checks Blacephelon. Blace is another "anti-stall" pick, yet Mandibuzz walls and ohkos unboosted Blace with ease. A blace user is unlikely to pivot it in on Mandibuzz defogging, unlike all other defoggers it favours to. Mandibuzz laughs off even boosted Z-shadow ball from Blace.
-6A: Can check Band Crawdaunt, especially if knock off is carried on Mandibuzz or is used earlier by another member of your team.
-7A: Overcoat allows it retain its leftovers healing in hazardous weathers, unlike Zapdos. You wll very rarely see spore or stun spore, but overcoat is helpful even in those circumstances. It's other useful ability, Big Pecks, helps it to wall attacks that other defoggers or unawares struggle with, such as shadow bone and liquidation/crabhammer.
Other random stuff: A mixed or SpD spread walls specs normal greninja and can defog on it; Iron Defense variants with Rocky Helm can wall and eventually straight out OHKO m-mawile through foul play and helm recoil -- unlike Iron Defense Skarm which fears a magnet trapper paired with Mawile. Z-Ground lures in and trashes incoming Heatran and Mawile.
mods: I have to go rn but I'll post calcs and replays later tonight, just wanted the bulk explanation out of the way first.
Replays (had to dig since I don't like showing new teams):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-738742579 Hoopa-U
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-740845367 Screens Zygarde
I love Mandibuzz but I disagree with it being C+ and before I give my opinion of where it should be placed, let me just reply to your key points.
You say no other defogger comes close to walling Band Zygarde, but there are actually others like Mega Scizor and Phy Def Gliscor which also can defog and avoid the 2HKO from any of its attacks and I'll post these calcs below. They have also have additional benefits such as Gliscor being able to set its own rocks and being status immune.
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 187-222 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Scizor-Mega: 115-136 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
There are also bulky pokemon like Slowbro that are getting more common which can deal with Band Zygarde even if it spams Outrage.
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Outrage on ZardX is a move that is basically non-existent on high ladder, and due to prevalence of fairies and steels in this meta, locking yourself into Outrage isn't a good situation when there are other moves such as Dragon Claw being available options. Even then, Mandibuzz doesn't even wall Outrage ZardX as at +1 it easily 2HKOs Mandibuzz and Foul Play doesn't OHKO in return, so assuming you switched Mandibuzz into ZardX and it clicks DD, then it would still drop like the unaware walls.
Alowak is annoying for sure for stall and Mandibuzz can deal with it assuming it runs Knock Off over Foul Play, but even then Mandibuzz can't deal with Alowak when TR is up as it is 2HKO'd almost every time and stall usually doesn't have a way to stop TR from going up due to most teams not running taunt or having the power to quickly break through the setters.
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 216-255 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Now Mandibuzz is able to wall Band Hoopa-U and is the main reason that I ever consider using Mandibuzz on my teams as Hoopa-U is one of stalls biggest concerns and is getting increasingly common. But moving it onto the VR for that reason alone would be the same as putting a mon like Arcanine there simply because it deals with Mega Mawile with Intimidate and Will-O-Wisp which is another mon that is getting more common. Pokemon like Maggron which have made their way onto the VR can do other things outside of dealing with one huge threat.
Assuming Mandibuzz manages to switch into Blace for free, then yes it can check Blace but if Blace does even one CM it becomes increasingly risking for the Mandibuzz as Z-Fire Blast will easily OHKO and lets be honest, most of the time Mandibuzz isn't getting in on Blace without taking damage unless Blace does Sub, and then it can CM after while you waste a turn breaking it.
Mandibuzz does not actually deal with Banded Crawdaunt at all. Band Crawdaunt if not on TR runs Speed, easily enough to outpace Mandibuzz meaning that unless you run 136speed to speed creep it and miss out important benchmarks that your earlier points made such as Band Zygarde, you can't even Knock Off Crawdaunt in time to live the second Crabhammer.
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 214-254 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And like with Alowak, if its in TR then Mandibuzz can deal with it outside of TR but not inside of it, so its still an unreliable option to have as your Crawdaunt switch.
You wouldn't really use a Mixed or Spd Spread because other mons just do the job better. If you really wanted to wall Ash Greninja you could simply opt for Mantine for example. Iron Defense Mandibuzz could deal with Mawile in theory but it can't do what Shed Shell Skarm can and switch into anything Mawile can do before using Iron Defense. There's no point making an option for it deal with pokemon if it can't switch into them in the first place on stall. Z-Tectonic Rage sounded nice, and it does hit Heatran hard, it still fails to OHKO even without any investment on Heatran and does a pitiful amount to Mawile, so lefties would be better in almost every situation for the passive recovery.
0 Atk Mandibuzz Tectonic Rage (140 BP) vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 118-140 (47 - 55.7%) -- 73.8% chance to 2HKO
I feel this meta is not kind to Mandibuzz at this time. Fairies and run Steels run rampant and Mandibuzz struggles to deal with them. Even with Kartana, Z-Giga is growing in popularity due to being able to OHKO Zapdos and the same applies to Mandibuzz.
+2 252 Atk Kartana Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 389-458 (91.7 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
Mandibuzz also suffers from the fact that it can't deal with basically any of the common hazard setters. Unlike pokemon like Mantine which can switch into Ash Greninja, Skarm for Landot or Zapdos for Ferrothorn, Mandibuzz isn't able to switch into any common pokemon which can set up hazards which makes its a bad choice to have as a defogger as all common setters have at least one set that can beat Mandibuzz such as Suicide Lead Landot, Z-Outage Garchomp. This means that even if Mandibuzz switches in, then pokemon like Toxapex or Ferrothorn that can't do much damage, can still constantly lay down hazards until Mandibuzz switches out because of Leech Seed/Toxic.
Mandibuzz may have a small niche in this meta currently to be maybe C-, but I feel its better off left UR due to the reasons I stated.
Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
This is a dumb & close minded reasoning. Not only do you have 5 other mon slots, it shows your severely lacking team building skills. This has nothing to with the mon at all if you're judging a mon on the entire team and not the mon itself. I have years of experience and it's actually REALLY easy to fit on teams, i don't know who told you otherwise, hint hint they are ignorant about this mon. & 2 it doesnt matter, the rest of the team can change it's about the archetype. this is not complicated, stop this
p.s. whats stopping you from idk.... trying out these mons yourself???
And to you bro what are you talking about, it's like you don't use mandibuzz because nearly everything you said against it was wrong.
mandibuzz not okoing + zard x :
0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 211-250 (71 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO if this hits u theres actually a really high chance if it okoing due to helmet damage, but also who tf is running outrage.
"Mandibuzz can't deal with Alowak " bro again its like you neither use alolan marowak nor mandibuzz...
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 217-256 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 228-270 (70.5 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The ghost bone is going to die and at best can commit suicide, if rocks up it dies. like what are u talking about.
"becomes increasingly risking for the Mandibuzz as Z-Fire Blast will easily OHKO and lets be honest, most of the time Mandibuzz isn't getting in on Blace without taking damage "
again the same old shit, it's like u dont know what ur talking about... first off who tf is using Z fire blast, that set is a non issue in itself, secondly +1 fire blast doesnt kill but u for damn sure kill blace. NEXT (btw it's really easy to get in on blace without taking damage and u take a +1 fire blast :) but ud know that if u actually run mandibuzz )
" Band Crawdaunt if not on TR runs Speed, easily enough to outpace Mandibuzz meaning that unless you run 136speed to speed creep it and miss out important benchmarks that your earlier points made such as Band Zygarde, you can't even Knock Off Crawdaunt in time to live the second Crabhammer." I actually run speed on mandi, not a lot but i have never been outspeed by the crab and i also dont run knock off. like what sets do you think people are running dude? Seriously do you or have you ever run mandibuzz?
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Alright lemme cover your points because its surprising how you agreed with the rise to C+ without apparently reading the points that tried to justify the rise. Aurella spoke about how Outrage was able to get past Pyukumuku and Quagsire and I replied with how Outrage on ZardX isn't used due to having other options available and spoke about how Mandibuzz lost to it even if ZardX was running it. Also if Mandibuzz is RH other then Lefties, then Outrage starts to have a chance to 2HKO from Zygarde so the first point about walling Band Zygarde is less solid.
Once again you clearly didn't read in regards to my post concerning Alowak. What I said was this "Alowak is annoying for sure for stall and Mandibuzz can deal with it assuming it runs Knock Off over Foul Play, but even then Mandibuzz can't deal with Alowak when TR is up as it is 2HKO'd almost every time and stall usually doesn't have a way to stop TR from going up due to most teams not running taunt or having the power to quickly break through the setters.", which was that if not in TR, Mandibuzz CAN deal with it, just NOT when TR is up. Stop trying to twist the wording to make yourself sound right, I never said that Mandibuzz couldn't wall Alowak outside of TR.
And as for Crawdaunt, whether you outspeed it or not with your set doesn't change anything. My point was that running speed in Mandibuzz, you miss important benchmarks for other pokemon. Why would you not prioritise walling threats like Zygarde that are common then something thats only really seen on TR with rare usage outside of it. You can say that you've never been outsped, but you just need to look on the Analysis for Crawdaunt to see that they do run max Speed meaning that most ones you'll face outside of TR will outspeed non-invested or slightly invested Mandibuzz.
And because of that lack of Bulk to try and outspeed Crawdaunt, you get 2HKO'd by it regardless.
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Mandibuzz: 240-284 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Mandibuzz: 160-190 (37.7 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So assuming its RH which you've said several times, you would need extremely low rolls in order to win this MU and thats assuming that Crawdaunt isn't Aqua Jet. Considering you have to switch into a Crabhammer, if you knock off, then you either die to the next one, and even if you live then Aqua Jet still kills. And since it does so much damage, you can't even Roost stall. Also I know you like to run creative sets, but you weren't the person I was talking to, once again if you read Aurella post in the first place, knock off was mentioned for Crawdaunt so I highly recommend you read that post again.
If you don't want to acknowledge the last part of my post then thats up to you, but if you want to actually prove it wrong, then state some undeniable facts and talk about how Mandibuzz is suited to the current meta and how it deals with the plethora of hazard setters amongst other things. If you want a pokemon to go from UR all the way to B which is on par with pokemon like Blace and Fini, then I feel you need present its case much better because you haven't provided anything to make me think otherwise.
Also don't assume that you are one of the few people that actually use Mandibuzz and anyone that has differing opinions is just flat out wrong. I've used Mandibuzz for mostly all of gen 6 and a good part of gen 7. I've used it enough to gather my own opinions about it even if they happen to be different then yours, so stop replying to everything you disagree with on posts with "do you even use Mandibuzz" because that doesn't help your argument. Rather, post things like calcs and show what Mandibuzz is actually capable of. In addition people don't even have to use Mandibuzz religiously to be able have a opinion on it. Most people dislike using stall for example, but can still talk about stall mons placements from having played against it, seeing it in action and/or the current trend of the meta at that point in time.
Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
A lot of what you said has a lot of fluff so don't mind if i just go through and respond 1v1
"which was that if not in TR, Mandibuzz CAN deal with it, just NOT when TR is up. Stop trying to twist the wording to make yourself sound right, I never said that Mandibuzz couldn't wall Alowak outside of TR." - nah fam, point was that it could and it does. NEXT.
"assuming its RH which you've said several times, you would need extremely low rolls in order to win this MU and thats assuming that Crawdaunt isn't Aqua Jet. Considering you have to switch into a Crabhammer..." - bro lol what tf. who is switching into CH thats not the goal here
". Also I know you like to run creative sets, but you weren't the person I was talking to, " - actually my mandibuzz set isnt creative at all lmaoooo it's a goddamn mandibuzz again what
"If you don't want to acknowledge the last part of my post then thats up to you, but if you want to actually prove it wrong, then state some undeniable facts and talk about how Mandibuzz is suited to the current meta and how it deals with the plethora of hazard setters amongst other things." are you a fucking child.... i swear it's like I am not here to tell you that the sky is blue, when you say something stupid and wildly innaccurate im not going to sit here and tell you otherwise as it's obvious to me that you dont care about facts.
"Also don't assume that you are one of the few people that actually use Mandibuzz and anyone that has differing opinions is just flat out wrong. I've used Mandibuzz for mostly all of gen 6 and a good part of gen 7. I" - I actually don't believe you so please share with me your showdown name or send some replays. I'd like to see this since you have a wildly skewed view about this goddess of a mon
Some good critique as to why mandibuzz might be oversold a bit, but I wanted to address this line. Being able to pivot in and scout crawdaunt's set is invaluable. Crawdaunt is notoriously hard to switch into and this safely takes both its stabs and allows you to pivot to say a bulky water to take the second crabhammer assuming they even clicked crabhammer, also if its not choiced yeah you want to know that. Add in hazards and rocky helmet damage and your well on your way to surviving the cray fishes onslaught.
Lets address something here. We've spoken about Mandibuzz on stall and what it can wall, but I feel you are failing to understand that with stall, you need to keep in mind that you are switching into the threat, not getting in for free. What I am talking about is the numerous opportunities that the opponent is going to have to switch in Alowak on non-toxic chansey which can't touch it. Assuming that Mandibuzz gets in for free, then yes it can deal with both Alowak and Crawdaunt but thats not going to happen in most cases when you use stall. The same way that people don't leave Chansey in on Mega Mawile, people aren't gonna stay in with Alowak on a full health Mandibuzz. They will just switch out and wait for an opportunity which will happen eventually. When you look for something to deal with threats on stall, you want something that is able to switch into anything they do, and win regardless and thats just not the case from Alowak and Crawdaunt from the previous calcs I've posted which show that Mandibuzz is UNABLE to switch into those two should they hit Mandibuzz with Flare Blitz in TR or Crabhammer both outside and inside of it, I don't know how you fail to see it when I posted calcs of Mandibuzz taking 50%+ but I'll post it here again just in case it was missed.
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 214-254 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Mandibuzz: 240-284 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 216-255 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Outside of stall, this is less of an issue, but its also less of what small reason Mandibuzz has to even to be used as Mandibuzz just isn't suited to the other playstyles in most cases. Not saying you can't make it work but its definitely not B worthy or let alone C+. Also its funny how you say I don't care about facts yet don't present a single one of your own in regards to my last paragraph, so either do so or leave it and move on.
Taking over 50% of your HP on one switch, and being outsped so you immediately have to switch out without healing is nowhere near what I would call a safe switch. That leaves Mandibuzz low enough to not being able to live the second Crabhammer and having your defogger that low can start to make it difficult for hazard control. Even with SR + RH Crawdaunt is going to be able to come switch into rocks and land at least 4 hits on Mandibuzz, and if they knock off, then sure they have to switch out but in return no more RH chip, allowing them to fire off more hits. A good alternative is RH Phy Def Tangrowth as thanks to Regen + Giga Drain, after the initial Knock Off doing a ton, it can then Giga Drain as it easily lives the second hit.
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 192-226 (47.6 - 56%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 128-152 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 89.7% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Crawdaunt: 282-332 (105.6 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Difference is Tangrowth avoids the 2HKO from anything, OHKOs back and even if the Crawdaunt switches, regen ensures that you are at full health so you can consistently counter it all game, which is something Mandibuzz fails to do.
Outside of Choice Band, the fact that Mandibuzz can see what set Crawdaunt is nice, but the only other set is SD which Mandibuzz also doesn't deal with so it doesn't help much.
the next time I see an Alolan Marowak/Crawdaunt vs Mandibuzz calc in this thread is the last time someone posts in this thread.
to make this clear, STOP discussing mandibuzz. we will vote on it and that is that. nothing more needs to be said about this shit
to make this clear, STOP discussing mandibuzz. we will vote on it and that is that. nothing more needs to be said about this shit
Mega Lopunny to A- (Agree)
Here are the main reasons, as well as the explanation of all below.
- Decreased use of Clefable, Toxapex, Zapdos and Mega Scizor.
- Decreased use of Mega Alakazam, especially Timid, and Hawlucha, as well as Choice Scarf users
- Increase in use of Bulky Offense and Hyper Offense builds
Mega Lopunny really deserves a rise.
I believe that the metagame is changing in favor of Bulky Offense builds, and we just look at the common Pokémon in this type of build and realize the pressure it causes with its very high speed (along with its powerful STAB, perfect neutral coverage and respectable Base 136 ATK): Mega Mawile, Ash Greninja, Tangrowth, Heatran, Tornadus-T, Tapu Bulu, Rotom-Wash ... Everyone suffers great pressure with the 2HKO or OHKO risk, and if well played, Mega Lopunny will certainly give great headaches: Is not more like before, that in the majority of the battles she had to deal with great impeccings like the pokémon already cited like Toxapex.
Hyper Offense is also becoming very popular, and so it has an even greater highlight, especially if using Fake Out to break down possible Focus Sash.
Stall is not one of the best matchups, but it's not the worst of them all, since Mega Sableye runs the risk of super effective HJK, although force mind games, and PuP + Encore also helps in this matchup.
Mega Lopuny has been much favored by the changes that have been taking place, and the decrease in use of Walls capable of stopping her has made the threat of her sweep much greater, as the diminution of her revenge killers has made her high speed even more valuable, so it certainly deserves a rise.
Of course, certain pokémon still have use because they have not been banned, and Mega Lopunny will certainly have some bad battles, as I'm not saying that it is perfect, but now the number of games it CAUSES problems is greater than the number of games that she HAS problems, since the metagame has changed in her favor. It's also worth considering that she has a handle on most of her checks and counters.
Mega Lopunny to A-
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