Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Reviloja753]

Heracross-Mega from B+ to B or B-

This was a long time coming. Tornadus-T blows it back and is super good right now. Heatran may need to watch out for Close Combat but otherwise also beats it so long as it is faster. MegaZam just needs to come in on Close Combat and also is better now. Tangrowth also isn’t as good anymore with Zygarde launched into the stratosphere. Magearna is also being tossed around to move up to S, and it just switches into Mega Heracross and either sets up on it, nukes it with Fleur Cannon or some combination of both. While I understand it has a niche, I think all of these meta changes have not been kind to the bug, and I think it deserves a drop. If it were me, I would suggest B- because assuming it rises I think Jirachi is better than MegaHera and should reflect that, but if it only goes down to B that’s cool too.

 

[lydian]

Heracross-Mega from B+ to B or B-

This was a long time coming. Tornadus-T blows it back and is super good right now. Heatran may need to watch out for Close Combat but otherwise also beats it so long as it is faster. MegaZam just needs to come in on Close Combat and also is better now. Tangrowth also isn’t as good anymore with Zygarde launched into the stratosphere. Magearna is also being tossed around to move up to S, and it just switches into Mega Heracross and either sets up on it, nukes it with Fleur Cannon or some combination of both. While I understand it has a niche, I think all of these meta changes have not been kind to the bug, and I think it deserves a drop. If it were me, I would suggest B- because assuming it rises I think Jirachi is better than MegaHera and should reflect that, but if it only goes down to B that’s cool too.

I don't really like this as an argument as Tornadus-T, Mega Alakazam, Heatran, and Magearna have zero business switching in and Mega Heracross has no business staying in on any of these (assuming Heatran and Magerna are faster of course). You're kind of completely overlooking Mega Heracross's niche which is to switch into Grass-types and wallbreak, really. And plenty of Ferrothorn being out there is also nice for it too, sure Leech can be annoying, but if Mega Heracross comes in while Ferrothorn Spikes they're having a hard time. I don't think Zygarde ban affected it too much in all honesty, because yeah it was an offensive check, but you still wanted at least one or two more Zygarde checks alongside it, Mega Heracross was more of a last resort type of thing. And even then, Mega Heracross despised getting status'd by the snake. Anyway, my point here is that Mega Heracross's function is to wallbreak not to stomach hits from Tornadus-T, Heatran, Magearna, all of which, mind you, have had pretty stable usage and relevancy as of late so nothing has really changed I feel. In conclusion, instead of listing four things that can OHKO Mega Heracross as a reasoning to drop it definitely won't sell anyone into your argument, sure the Tangrowth point makes some sense, but I think it's far from enough to say it was a "long time coming" nomination.

to A+: I was a bit hesitant at first, but the more I think about, the more this nomination makes sense. Rotom-W is a fundamental part of the post-Zygarde metagame as a tool several playstyles ranging from Offense to Balance can make great use of and the fact that only a handful of Pokémon can take its STAB combination and not mind getting status'd. Moreover Rotom-W is pretty much the face of bulky offense at the moment, due to the fact that it's a stellar momentum generator and just so easy to fit on teams. I think it almost kind of compares to the utility Tornadus-T gives, as opposed to the other A+ Pokémon which are there mostly for offensive or defensive merits.

to B+: This initially went to A- because of the Protect hype, but I still think it fits better in B+. Mega Diancie wasn't used once this SPL and its usage dropped pretty significantly in high ladder too. While sure, Protect is a nice tech, it doesn't really solve the flaws that plague Mega Diancie and it ends up sitting it in that shitty limbo of not being particularly strong enough to break teams nor particularly fast enough to pose a threat to more offensive plastyles. Sure it's still a nice rocker to stall, but sets like specially defensive Mew have been popping up to cover even that niche, so I really think a drop to B+ seems reasonable.

That should be all for today, thanks for reading ^^

 

[Testgg]

Heracross-Mega from B+ to B or B-

This was a long time coming. Tornadus-T blows it back and is super good right now. Heatran may need to watch out for Close Combat but otherwise also beats it so long as it is faster. MegaZam just needs to come in on Close Combat and also is better now. Tangrowth also isn’t as good anymore with Zygarde launched into the stratosphere. Magearna is also being tossed around to move up to S, and it just switches into Mega Heracross and either sets up on it, nukes it with Fleur Cannon or some combination of both. While I understand it has a niche, I think all of these meta changes have not been kind to the bug, and I think it deserves a drop. If it were me, I would suggest B- because assuming it rises I think Jirachi is better than MegaHera and should reflect that, but if it only goes down to B that’s cool too.

None of the stuff you have mentioned switches into mega heracross at all.Magearna doesn't set up on it lol 252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 250-295 (83 - 98%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
mega zam takes 90 from close combat,torn dies to rock blast and heatran to cc

 

[shieldpoke]

Medi to A+ is wrong: Medi does have switch ins like RH Torn-T, Reuniclus, Mew, M-Sableye, Tapu Fini, Clef, etc.. Some of those are more sturdy than others, but that's not really the point. The point is that M-Medi has a "just ok" speed tier, needs support to work, fails to break common stall cores, and doesn't offer a lot in terms of versatility. While it's still a great mon, it's just not comparable with other A+ mons in terms of versatility, defensive presence, longevity, setup options, need for team support, and speed tier.

Fini is absolutely not a switch in.


252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 156-183 (45.4 - 53.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 192-226 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You don't even have to predict HJK + Zen has a chance to kill.

We already discussed how Clef is not a switch in. I literally mentioned the rest of the mons but said that if a mon has so few switchins, it deserves its place in A+. Not to mention that Mega-Sableye is no longer the only stall mega anymore, so it more competition. The rest of your spiel doesn't really tell me anything in terms of concrete details as to why it doesn't deserve the rise.

 

[Guard]

Magearna A+ >>> S

We should thank the merciful Lord for not giving Magearna a useful Attack on top of Shift Gear, because as it stands, Magearna is already the straightforward definition of terrifying. Considering the fact that it has moves varying from a Fairy type Draco Meteor to Bolt Beam coverage to Fighting coverage to setup options to even semi-recovery along with a dozen item options, a lethal ability, perfect stats and the best typing in the game, it shouldn’t be a surprise that Magearna has always been the 2nd most used mon on ladder in the entirety of USM history.

Its splashability is outright staggering. Magearna is a must on HO, period. AV, if not its many offensive sets, is an almost must on balance and Magearna even has its uses in Stall with a Heart Swap set. It is unpredictable to the point that it, from an offensive point of view, easily 6-0’s teams right on the spot on an entirely matchup-based sense. CelePex gets annihilated by the potential Electrium Z/Thunderbolt, Heatran, Ferrothorn and Jirachi dislike Fightinium and pretty much everything else is spit roasted by either Fairium or Steelium. Hyper Offense often straight up loses to certain Shift Gear sets and I’m not even considering the possibility of OTR here, balance teams also struggle against certain Gear sets and very often lose to Double Dance and Stall is obviously a piece of cake for CM Pain Split.

On top of all that, the departure of Zygarde has been beneficial on the whole for Magearna, since although Heatran got even better, Magearna not only lost an excellent offensive check, but also stands as the absolute Queen of HO now, AV has one less reason to spam Volt Switch and it is able to feast on the many defensive mons that rose in viability after Zygardes teambuilding constraint in the meta was removed (read Washtom, Steela, Pex and Zapdos). Magearna has always been borderline S and I think the time has come for it to rise once again.

As a side note, if I’d take a look at the VR and tell you what compares best to Lando-T and Tran right now, I would undoubtedly point out Magearna since the amount of similarities it has with the aforementioned S-ranked mons is simply striking (i.e. a plethora of horrifying Z-sets, a game defining bulky set, set versatility and immense splashability).

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Why are Suicune and Alomomola in B tier? There are pokes below them who definitely do better in the current metagame and with Zygarde gone, I'm seeing more electric types like Thundurus

 

[Ruft]

from C+ to C/C-

Really, when is the last time you saw a Mimikyu and thought 'Oh shit'?

Take a look at its stats. Its Smogon analysis says it has "decent Attack". I beg to differ. 90 attack is straight up bad. In today's meta where Zygarde is gone, bulky Pokémon reign supreme and it's not gonna break through them with such a pitiful attack stat. It can't break through most Steel-types which are extremely common and often gets OHKO'd (or 2HKO'd if it still has its Disguise up) in return. People say its niche lies in the fact that it gets a free substitute but that's dead wrong as it is still very susceptible to status. Burn is as common as ever with Rotom-Wash, Toxapex and Heatran on the rise, which turns Mimikyu into dead weight. (A stray Scald eliminates its Disguise and potentially burns it on the same turn, a beautiful sight to behold.) Ignore its pitiful attack stat and look at what you have. 55 HP means it dies to a sneeze and 96 speed leaves it outsped by any base 100+ as it's never gonna use a scarf because its attack stat is too low to forego setup. Even if it manages to get up an SD its +2 attack is only really similar to Mega Mawile/Medicham's unboosted attack, who don't lose it after switching out. Haze from Toxapex also means it's over and it'll never dream of breaking through Unaware users.

I can make similar arguments for Hawlucha but at least that Pokémon has harder-hitting moves and the fact that reliable recovery in Roost as well as a Def/SpDef-boosting berry means it can take some hits while setting up. If Mimikyu gets hit on the other hand there are no second chances. Hawlucha also has blistering speed obviously which Mimikyu doesn't have, as well as a notably higher HP stat.

Its only niche is on webs (and I guess an even smaller niche on Trick Room) which eliminates its speed problem but doesn't eliminate its numerous other problems. It also acts as a spinblocker but there is exactly one Rapid Spin user in the tier. (And wouldn't Specs Blacephalon be more fit for this anyway? It can blow Excadrill away after coming in. Unless the Excadrill uses EQ on the switch or if it's Sand Rush, but in both cases Mimikyu is also boned.) I feel like Sticky Web in general has lost traction in the current bulky metagame, so if you want to drop some other web Pokémon (looking at Mega Pinsir and Shuckle), be my guest.

Put the trash where it belongs.

 

[Adapt or Die]

from C+ to C/C-

Really, when is the last time you saw a Mimikyu and thought 'Oh shit'?

Take a look at its stats. Its Smogon analysis says it has "decent Attack". I beg to differ. 90 attack is straight up bad. In today's meta where Zygarde is gone, bulky Pokémon reign supreme and it's not gonna break through them with such a pitiful attack stat. It can't break through most Steel-types which are extremely common and often gets OHKO'd (or 2HKO'd if it still has its Disguise up) in return. People say its niche lies in the fact that it gets a free substitute but that's dead wrong as it is still very susceptible to status. Burn is as common as ever with Rotom-Wash, Toxapex and Heatran on the rise, which turns Mimikyu into dead weight. (A stray Scald eliminates its Disguise and potentially burns it on the same turn, a beautiful sight to behold.) Ignore its pitiful attack stat and look at what you have. 55 HP means it dies to a sneeze and 96 speed leaves it outsped by any base 100+ as it's never gonna use a scarf because its attack stat is too low to forego setup. Even if it manages to get up an SD its +2 attack is only really similar to Mega Mawile/Medicham's unboosted attack, who don't lose it after switching out. Haze from Toxapex also means it's over and it'll never dream of breaking through Unaware users.

I can make similar arguments for Hawlucha but at least that Pokémon has harder-hitting moves and the fact that reliable recovery in Roost as well as a Def/SpDef-boosting berry means it can take some hits while setting up. If Mimikyu gets hit on the other hand there are no second chances. Hawlucha also has blistering speed obviously which Mimikyu doesn't have, as well as a notably higher HP stat.

Its only niche is on webs (and I guess an even smaller niche on Trick Room) which eliminates its speed problem but doesn't eliminate its numerous other problems. It also acts as a spinblocker but there is exactly one Rapid Spin user in the tier. (And wouldn't Specs Blacephalon be more fit for this anyway? It can blow Excadrill away after coming in. Unless the Excadrill uses EQ on the switch or if it's Sand Rush, but in both cases Mimikyu is also boned.) I feel like Sticky Web in general has lost traction in the current bulky metagame, so if you want to drop some other web Pokémon (looking at Mega Pinsir and Shuckle), be my guest.

Put the trash where it belongs.

I think the meta has shifted against mimikyu and I wouldn't mind it dropping, but I disagree with most of the argument here.

I feel like you misunderstand mimi's niche on HO. Mimi isn't so much a sweeper (although it can do some damage after a boost) but it is a great security blanket for an archetype that is most vulnerable to opposing offensive mons. Hawlucha, megazam, speed boosting blace, ash-gren etc. are all mons that can greatly threated hyper offense archetypes but are easily revenged because of Mimikyu's pesky disguise. In matchups where mimikyu isn't needed as a hard check it can still swords dance basically every game and do some significant damage.

If we're going to drop mimikyu lets do it for the right reasons which is the rise in rotom and celepex.

 

[SeniorGibus]

Rotom-H UR- C-

Everyone's hyping over Rotom-W, which I agree has really benefited from Zygarde's ban, but the Rotom formed that arguably benefited the most is Rotom-H. Thanks to Zygarde's absence, it doesn't have to worry about any ground type attack whatsoever bar Kyurem-B's Earth power and mold breaker excadrill's earthquake, the latter of which cannot switch into an overheat. Unlike its washing machine counterpart, Rotom-H is a good pivot can reliably deal with threats Rotom-W cannot such as tapu koko, tapu bulu, bisharp, mega scizor, serperior, ferrothorn, and the occasional thundurus, mega manectric, and mega charizard y. It also separates itself from heatran with volt switch, t-wave, pain-split, and a lack of a ground weakness thanks to levitate. Overall this Rotom form is the HEAT that should not be ignored.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-854842782: Rotom heat easily pivots out without repercussions into the wincon of the team.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-854845623: Rotom completely shuts down an aurora veil setter and easily pivots out thanks to the combo of t-wave and overheat, while crippling another special attacker
*Not the best replays but they suffice on showing off rotom-H's nice pivoting

I'm not entirely opposed to exploring Rotom heat's potential but I feel like you didn't provide much backing for why it's good enough to warrant being ranked.

First, your replays:

Replay Analysis

On your first replay, your rotom heat volt switches once. This is something that any rotom form could've done and it likely wouldn't have worked if your opponent didn't choke. Your opponent should've gone into heatran as to deny magerna setup while also walling rotom heat, but he didn't. Rotom heat practically didn't do anything considering that guy was going to loose to SG magerna anyways. (Also, had it been washtom you would've removed heatran as an option from him and won in a very similar way.)

Second replay your opponent also made a pretty huge misplay in not setting up veil and then trying to sleep you which would've put him in a way better position but I will admit this is a niece position vs a niece playstlye is something only rotom heat could've pulled off. Or the 100 other veil checks in the tier. Once again rotom barely does anything and wouldn't have accomplished as much as it did against a better opponent.

Second, you didn't justify what it does compared to other fire types and pivots.

^

Rotom-heat is kinda promising but it doesn't really check half the things you listed. Sub serperior beats it, focus blast from zard y blows this thing back (especially after rocks,) banded bulu deletes this thing and koko gets a free pivot into one of its partners. Say... LOKB, medicham, etc. Also, being a fire type pivot puts a lot of strain on your team to constantly keep rocks off to not loose a check to one of their pokemon. Heatran also pretty much beats this thing but I see you used T wave to better check it. It still won't appreciate heatran and rocks, making it an inferior tran check to washtom.

Overall, I can see potential for rotom-heat but not from this post, there's not much to go on, the replays are pretty lackluster and there's no sample sets or teams you provided.

Side note: I wrote this up before realising this is 2 pages back from the current thread. It's not too far back and nobody's touched on this yet, so I'll reply anyways.

 

[Colonel M]

Why are Suicune and Alomomola in B tier? There are pokes below them who definitely do better in the current metagame and with Zygarde gone, I'm seeing more electric types like Thundurus

Alomomola is still a nice alternative on some stall builds to keep itself afloat against threats like Zard X. While there are other ways to handle it, Alomomola also has a niche in passing Wishes for stall builds which can benefit those like Mega Aggron. Before I was pretty adamant in dropping it to B-. Now I don't think it quite belongs in B- or some of the outliers in B- could simply rise. One example - I think Alomomola is easier to justify on a stall team than Mamo currently on a balance / offensive team since there are some trends like Celesteela and Rotom-W that it doesn't like popping up. Sure there's some mons like Magnezone that can give it a little more effectiveness and techs like Metronome and Knock Off (not at the same time but Knock Off removes Rotom-W's Berry or Lefties), but other than being a strong offensive mon it needs specialized support to break through some teams.

Not to say Mamo is bad by the way. Its underrated at times and it is a great Koko check, but it doesn't like some of the upticks of this meta even if it is good for some of the current rises in mons (Gliscor).

 

[xapx]

Here's my thoughts on the proposed nominations in the A ranks:
A+ to A (agree)

Tapu Bulu
I think Lyd has already listed the main points of why Tapu Bulu is kind of oversold in the VR. One extra thing that I'd like to note is that its viability has been affected indirectly by the Zygarde ban. Pokemon like Magearna and Celesteela have become even more common since Zygarde's ban, and they are easily able to come in on Tapu Bulu. The meta has also kind of adapted to it, with Rockium Z Garchomp. It's still an amazing mon, just not quite as good as it was before the Zyg ban, so A fits it just right.


A to A+ (kind of agree)

Celesteela
This mon is fucking fat and is actually something a team should also have a check for. I'm not completely convinced that it should be A+ because mons like Koko and Zapdos are making a comeback, and I'm seeing quite a lot of Zone+Lando, pressuring Cele from switching into Lando safely. However, it can still check a bunch of threats like Mega Alakazam, Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, Kartana, Mega Latias, Mega Diance, Mega Pinsir and Excadrill. I think being able to check these common balance breakers is a great thing for Cele, but I'd honestly like to see more support for this before I actually completely agree with it going up to A+.

A to A+ (agree)

Greninja
This is a Pokemon which I think should have rose a long time ago. Its wide variety of sets and complete unpredictability makes it a terrifying Pokemon to go up against. Its hard to predict whether a Greninja is Protean or Ash just by team preview especially in ladder play, unless you're up against someone that you can scout and know about, like in a tournament setting. Like Jordy mentioned, its ability to wreck havoc on common defensive cores like CelePex or BuluTran with different sets is amazing, and its defensive counterplay is close to non-existant due to the fact that it can break down your common Greninja check with the correct coverage. It can break through the supposed check AV Magearna with Z-Dig, Toxapex with Extrasensory, Bulu and Tang with Ice Beam and Gunk Shot, Ferrothorn with HP Fire and Low Kick and even Chansey with Z-Low Kick. Its true checks in Alomomola, Slowbro, and Mega Slowbro aren't found commonly, with Alo being mostly found on Stall and all on Balance or rarely BO. For the above reasons, Protean Greninja is a Pokemon which I think must go up to A+.

Mega Latias
Thanks for finally rising this beast btw.

A- to A (disagree)

Gliscor
While Gliscor is one of my favorite Pokemon to use, I don't think it's A material. It is certainly quite good at accomplishing its role on a team, and has benefitted from Ground-type resistances in Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu being less common. However, its checks Celesteela, Mega Latias, and Rotom-W are back on the rise, balancing out Gliscor's improvement from less Ground-resistant Grass-types. There hasn't been any change in the meta or Gliscor that really positively or negatively impact Gliscor's viability, aside from Heatrans able to run Firium Z without fearing Zygarde and having 25% to OHKO 252 HP 152 SpDef Gliscor. I think Gliscor is fine at A- in the current metagame. (Please tell me if there's anything you disagree with this, Colonel M, since I haven't seen a significant improvement for Gliscor when using it)

@Finchinator

do you mind fixing the example?

Zygarde can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat

 

[Colonel M]

A- to A (disagree)
View attachment 158202Gliscor
While Gliscor is one of my favorite Pokemon to use, I don't think it's A material. It is certainly quite good at accomplishing its role on a team, and has benefitted from Ground-type resistances in Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu being less common. However, its checks Celesteela, Mega Latias, and Rotom-W are back on the rise, balancing out Gliscor's improvement from less Ground-resistant Grass-types. There hasn't been any change in the meta or Gliscor that really positively or negatively impact Gliscor's viability, aside from Heatrans able to run Firium Z without fearing Zygarde and having 25% to OHKO 252 HP 152 SpDef Gliscor. I think Gliscor is fine at A- in the current metagame. (Please tell me if there's anything you disagree with this, Colonel M, since I haven't seen a significant improvement for Gliscor when using it)

The nice thing about Stealth Rock (or Defog) + Toxic is that it doesnt really need to beat those Pokemon. It's true that Gliscor isn't going to do a lot to Celesteela, which I will agree with you on since it needs outside support. The nice thing about Rotom-W and Mega Latias is that you're still catching both of these Pokemon with Toxic at the very least, which means that they will be taking passive damage every turn they're out. Another thing is that Gliscor invites Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu, and while some variants like Band Bulu hate burns more, both of these won't enjoy Toxic in the long term either.

While Z Tran remains a big threat for Gliscor, Defensive Tran can also be more annoying for some teams to handle properly and Gliscor isn't bothered much by it. So long as it doesn't switch into Taunt Gliscor has a free turn to either play Rocks, Toxic a switch-in, or (if the opposing player has no other options for example) simply EQ Tran. Z Tran is hard for many Pokemon other than some Water-types and Mega Lati@s to some degree anyway.

That being said I can see where there is merit to Gliscor still being A- and appreciate the response.

 

[Johnny's Pouch]

I'm not entirely opposed to exploring Rotom heat's potential but I feel like you didn't provide much backing for why it's good enough to warrant being ranked.

First, your replays:

Replay Analysis

On your first replay, your rotom heat volt switches once. This is something that any rotom form could've done and it likely wouldn't have worked if your opponent didn't choke. Your opponent should've gone into heatran as to deny magerna setup while also walling rotom heat, but he didn't. Rotom heat practically didn't do anything considering that guy was going to loose to SG magerna anyways. (Also, had it been washtom you would've removed heatran as an option from him and won in a very similar way.)

Second replay your opponent also made a pretty huge misplay in not setting up veil and then trying to sleep you which would've put him in a way better position but I will admit this is a niece position vs a niece playstlye is something only rotom heat could've pulled off. Or the 100 other veil checks in the tier. Once again rotom barely does anything and wouldn't have accomplished as much as it did against a better opponent.

Second, you didn't justify what it does compared to other fire types and pivots.

^

Rotom-heat is kinda promising but it doesn't really check half the things you listed. Sub serperior beats it, focus blast from zard y blows this thing back (especially after rocks,) banded bulu deletes this thing and koko gets a free pivot into one of its partners. Say... LOKB, medicham, etc. Also, being a fire type pivot puts a lot of strain on your team to constantly keep rocks off to not loose a check to one of their pokemon. Heatran also pretty much beats this thing but I see you used T wave to better check it. It still won't appreciate heatran and rocks, making it an inferior tran check to washtom.

Overall, I can see potential for rotom-heat but not from this post, there's not much to go on, the replays are pretty lackluster and there's no sample sets or teams you provided.

Side note: I wrote this up before realising this is 2 pages back from the current thread. It's not too far back and nobody's touched on this yet, so I'll reply anyways.

About the replays, really don't know how to show of pivots that well and I was pretty lazy that day too.

Also here are some nominations:

Greninja from A to A+: Agree, this thing was slept on for awhile and people are finally realizing its potential. Excellent pivot with scarf, offensive utility with spikes + waterium z, lure with z-low kick... you name it.

Mimikyu from C+ to C or UR: Agree, Mimikyu has been mediocre for awhile, many say its one of the worst ranked mons or nothing but a meme. Really only good in very niche playstyles such as webs.

Rotom-W from A to A+: Agree, with its worst enemy Zygarde gone, Rotom is practically free to run rampant in ou.

Magearna to S: Agree, also benefited from Zygarde's ban, less bulky grasses, one less ground type to worry about. Almost as versatile as gren.

Hoopa Unbound from B+ to B: Disagree, hoopa is still a fantanstic breaker imo, nasty plot set especially as it can break pex + steela core.

 

[petergreek2002]

This is gonna be my very first nom in the OU forum and I was thinking about it for a while but I think I. have good reasonings for it.

Nominating Victini for B+

Things have actually been going well for Vic lately, similar with the other Fire-types. The Zygarde ban means the resurgence of the infamous CelePex core, the dominance of Magearna (I also agree with the S-Rank nomination for it) and the rise of various steels in general. Vic easily breaks CelePex with just V-Create and Bolt Strike.

Take a look at how Band Vic fares against Pex.

252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 246-290 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Also despite Wash Rotom's resurgense, it can be a shaky check to it at times due to no reliable recovery outside of Pain Split and V-Create's raw power.

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 131-155 (43 - 50.9%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Also Mega Latias, a supposed check to it, also fears V-Create.

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

It also has room to fit Brick Break to have an easier time against Heatran and Tyranitar, who otherwise beat it easily. (especially TTar).

It still has the obvious flaws, like Rocks damage and V-Create's stat drops that render it Pursuit fodder, but the late trends of the post-Zygarde OU meta has favoured Vic imo and I think a rise should reflect it better.

 

[DeltaInsurgent]

from C+ to C/C-

Really, when is the last time you saw a Mimikyu and thought 'Oh shit'?

Take a look at its stats. Its Smogon analysis says it has "decent Attack". I beg to differ. 90 attack is straight up bad. In today's meta where Zygarde is gone, bulky Pokémon reign supreme and it's not gonna break through them with such a pitiful attack stat. It can't break through most Steel-types which are extremely common and often gets OHKO'd (or 2HKO'd if it still has its Disguise up) in return. People say its niche lies in the fact that it gets a free substitute but that's dead wrong as it is still very susceptible to status. Burn is as common as ever with Rotom-Wash, Toxapex and Heatran on the rise, which turns Mimikyu into dead weight. (A stray Scald eliminates its Disguise and potentially burns it on the same turn, a beautiful sight to behold.) Ignore its pitiful attack stat and look at what you have. 55 HP means it dies to a sneeze and 96 speed leaves it outsped by any base 100+ as it's never gonna use a scarf because its attack stat is too low to forego setup. Even if it manages to get up an SD its +2 attack is only really similar to Mega Mawile/Medicham's unboosted attack, who don't lose it after switching out. Haze from Toxapex also means it's over and it'll never dream of breaking through Unaware users.

I can make similar arguments for Hawlucha but at least that Pokémon has harder-hitting moves and the fact that reliable recovery in Roost as well as a Def/SpDef-boosting berry means it can take some hits while setting up. If Mimikyu gets hit on the other hand there are no second chances. Hawlucha also has blistering speed obviously which Mimikyu doesn't have, as well as a notably higher HP stat.

Its only niche is on webs (and I guess an even smaller niche on Trick Room) which eliminates its speed problem but doesn't eliminate its numerous other problems. It also acts as a spinblocker but there is exactly one Rapid Spin user in the tier. (And wouldn't Specs Blacephalon be more fit for this anyway? It can blow Excadrill away after coming in. Unless the Excadrill uses EQ on the switch or if it's Sand Rush, but in both cases Mimikyu is also boned.) I feel like Sticky Web in general has lost traction in the current bulky metagame, so if you want to drop some other web Pokémon (looking at Mega Pinsir and Shuckle), be my guest.

Put the trash where it belongs.

Absolutley, although I would personally move to unrank Mimikyu entiery. It’s rarely useful in a match and can easily be melted by anything that’s faster while it SDs and it’s Disguise gets burned, crippled by status, or just outright anhialated by Mold Breaker Excadrill’s Iron Head, which outright bypasses Disguise. All in all, Mimikyu is not suited for OverUsed, and frankly should have dropped to UU this month. Forget viability ranks, it doesn’t even belong in the tier.

 

[TPP]

Absolutley, although I would personally move to unrank Mimikyu entiery. It’s rarely useful in a match and can easily be melted by anything that’s faster while it SDs and it’s Disguise gets burned, crippled by status, or just outright anhialated by Mold Breaker Excadrill’s Iron Head, which outright bypasses Disguise. All in all, Mimikyu is not suited for OverUsed, and frankly should have dropped to UU this month. Forget viability ranks, it doesn’t even belong in the tier.

You didn't tell us anything about why Mimikyu in the current state of the metagame should be unranked, but rather tried to tell us some of its "flaws" that it always had. If Mimikyu wasn't suited for OU based on what you said, it would've been unranked a long time ago. I don't have an opinion on whether it should drop or not, but unranking a mon for the reasons you mentioned won't cut it. You need to discuss current meta trends and how they impact or affect a mon enough to where its viability has changed. Finally, even if Mimikyu dropped to UU, there are plenty of non OU mons that are viable in OU. The tier they are in doesn't matter as much as what they can do in the OU tier, and I highly recommend you try to read some of the other posts to see how to properly suggest a mon dropping a rank.

If you want to know what Mimikyu does, you can read the analysis here.

 

[BlueLobster]

Agree with dropping mimikyu, it's role on HO has become more and more redundant for a long time. Lucha is not as prominent as it once was, which harms it as disguise was great for anti lucha, and in general the need for a "security blanket" is much lower than it used to be. Webs, the main place this gets usage, has dropped considerably, and it's job as a spinblocker on webs is largely taken by blace anyway these days. In general this mon doesn't deserve a second glance, with the very odd team being an exception, so really I think its time this went to C- or at least C.

Agreeing with Tini rise, it really likes that zyg has gone since it's lost one of its best checks. Also zard y has gotten a little better due to this as well which means the excellent fire breaker core those 2 form needs less support with one of the most troublesome mons for it gone. Only meta trend it's not a fan of is chomp really, which isn't any worse for it than zyg was anyway so I think it's fair to rise it.

Also as little as I want to admit it Avalugg should probably drop to C- now zygs gone considering checking zygs the main reason it got ranked.

 

[Zeusen]

Hi all! I would like to nominate

from B to B+/A-

To begin, Fini is the only mon' that can switch into Heatran and Ash-Greninja and be able to defog the hazard away. Her STAB coverage allows her to force said mon' out. It is also worth mentioning that she's able to switch into them very consistently. She's one of the few mon' who can run Defog+Taunt, meaning that Pex' cannot just click t-spikes, and it also allows her to beat defensive Volcarona. She's also able to deal with Mega Gyarados if you forced your opponent to mega evolve it, and can put Hawlucha into priority range if there are no screens or straight up killing it if one can get chip damage on it, the most common method being Stealth Rock.

There is another good trait that Fini has: her ability. The terrain allows me to directly switching CB Kartana into Toxapex without worrying about the burn from Scald. I only mentioned Kart', but other wallbreakers can be used.

I would also like to agree on the Jirachi nomination, from B- to B. Jirachi is a powerful mon' that can easily can switch into grass types and set up rocks in front of their face. Most importantly though, he is able to beat Magearna and Tapu Lele. The best set I've found so far is SR/U-Turn/Iron Head/Wish (you don't even need Protect, most of the time the wish is for teammates such as Tapu Fini, which the two of them makes a deadly core by the way, highly recommend you using them). Finally, it is a mon' like Rotom-W, who appreciates Zygarde being gone. I would actually nominate for a higher ranking, but a rise in ranking is fine too, I guess.

Finally, I would also like to agree on the Protean Greninja nomination, from A to A+. I think Choice Scarf Greninja is the current best scarfer as of currently, because he is able to outspeed QD Volc', revenge killing Gyarados and M-ZardX. Bonus points for having spikes also.

 

[James2464]

I think it's time to drop Gengar from C+ to C. The meta is just too fast and too bulky to use Gengar for any reason. It's outclassed as a breaker by Blacephalon and as a cleaner by Ash-Greninja and Alakazam. Speaking of Ash and Mega Zam, they are ubiquitous and easily OHKO it. Scarf Lando is also extremely common. While Gengar can in theory run some interesting tech moves, it's really just not doing anything anymore. Gengar struggles to break the ever common Celepex cores in light of Zygarde's ban. I challenge anyone to build a team that wouldn't be better served by the aforementioned special attackers. In practice I think the best thing Gengar can possibly do in a match is perhaps trick a scarf onto a Pex. Maybe hitting something with wisp? (Blacephalon can do both of these things I might add!) I also don't think Gengar is as viable as its fellow C+ members, as each of them (barring regular Latios I guess) have a distinct niche that can't easily be replicated. The decreased viability of Tangrowth in light of Zygarde's ban is also detrimental to Gengar, as that was something that could be hit with a Sludge Wave (protean Greninja is the best offensive poison type in OU lol).

I would definitely disagree with some of your reasoning on Gengar. First of all, it doesn't lose to celesteela + pex if it's running tbolt and taunt. Toxapex can't do anything back and there's a chance of scald getting disabled which will usually result in a struggling pex. Additionally, it can run trick which completely ruins pex and celesteela. Though taunt isn't as good at stopping cele, you can run electruim z which will definitely kill due to a lack of reliable recovery.
252 SpA Gengar Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 278-328 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
One thing gengar does have over Blace is a higher speed stat. This means that if it runs choice scarf, It can outspeed scarf kartana and outspeed scarf blace. This makes it one of the best revenge killers for mons such as mega zam, kart, blace, and due to it's poison type it can revenge kill all the tapus. It also works against keldeo which blace cannot outspeed. There aren't really many good switches which can stop gengar since there are a decent amount of sets it can run. Chansey can't damage blace and most mons that rely on toxic can't really do anything. There are barely any ghost resists in ou, and those who do resist it are weak to fighting. Gengar does get focus blast, and assuming you don't miss it can be really scary switching into gengar. Some of the most viable mons in ou lose to gengar which is why having it drop is not needed.

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 248-294 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (not an OHKO but thats scarf and fini can't hit gengar back and blace gets walled by this)
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 315-372 (121.1 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO (easily one of the best revenge killers)
252 SpA Gengar All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 396-466 (102.5 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 276-326 (98.2 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (if you have scarf can revenge kill scarf lele)

Sets

Gengar @ Fightinium Z / Electruim Z / scarf / specs
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow ball (Mandatory move)
- Focus Blast (should be used most of the time)
- Taunt / thunder bolt / sludge wave
- Destiny bond / Energy ball / Will o Wisp / Trick

Specs and electruim Z aren't that viable in ou but can still be used, moves at the bottom are mostly meant as surprise gimmicks but otherwise you would mostly use taunt / tbolt there if you don't already have it

Edit: forgot to mention that its much easier to revenge kill blace due to it being weak to aqua jet. This lets mons like azu and crawdaunt to kill it(water shrunken too and that breaks blace substitutes). Also ttar makes blace useless while gengar can z move it

 

[Scuba Diver]

I would definitely disagree with some of your reasoning on Gengar. First of all, it doesn't lose to celesteela + pex if it's running tbolt and taunt. Toxapex can't do anything back and there's a chance of scald getting disabled which will usually result in a struggling pex. Additionally, it can run trick which completely ruins pex and celesteela. Though taunt isn't as good at stopping cele, you can run electruim z which will definitely kill due to a lack of reliable recovery.
252 SpA Gengar Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 278-328 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
One thing gengar does have over Blace is a higher speed stat. This means that if it runs choice scarf, It can outspeed scarf kartana and outspeed scarf blace. This makes it one of the best revenge killers for mons such as mega zam, kart, blace, and due to it's poison type it can revenge kill all the tapus. It also works against keldeo which blace cannot outspeed. There aren't really many good switches which can stop gengar since there are a decent amount of sets it can run. Chansey can't damage blace and most mons that rely on toxic can't really do anything. There are barely any ghost resists in ou, and those who do resist it are weak to fighting. Gengar does get focus blast, and assuming you don't miss it can be really scary switching into gengar. Some of the most viable mons in ou lose to gengar which is why having it drop is not needed.

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 248-294 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (not an OHKO but thats scarf and fini can't hit gengar back and blace gets walled by this)
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 315-372 (121.1 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO (easily one of the best revenge killers)
252 SpA Gengar All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 396-466 (102.5 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 276-326 (98.2 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (if you have scarf can revenge kill scarf lele)

Sets

Gengar @ Fightinium Z / Electruim Z / scarf / specs
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow ball (Mandatory move)
- Focus Blast (should be used most of the time)
- Taunt / thunder bolt / sludge wave
- Destiny bond / Energy ball / Will o Wisp / Trick

Specs and electruim Z aren't that viable in ou but can still be used, moves at the bottom are mostly meant as surprise gimmicks but otherwise you would mostly use taunt / tbolt there if you don't already have it

Edit: forgot to mention that its much easier to revenge kill blace due to it being weak to aqua jet. This lets mons like azu and crawdaunt to kill it(water shrunken too and that breaks blace substitutes). Also ttar makes blace useless while gengar can z move it

Let's look at the most recent 1825+ stats.
Gengar had 1.56502% use in the 1825+ bracket. Use isn't entirely related to viability but we'll keep going here. Of that 1.57%, these are the stats on items.

Items

| Life Orb 58.908%
| Choice Specs 12.857%
| Choice Scarf 12.648%
| Ghostium Z 7.861%
| Black Sludge 4.707%
| Other 3.019%

And these are the stats on moves

Moves

| Focus Blast 85.558%
| Shadow Ball 84.702%
| Sludge Wave 84.036%
| Destiny Bond 65.488%
| Trick 20.104%
| Hex 18.807%
| Taunt 7.419%
| Hidden Power Ice 6.477%
| Will-O-Wisp 6.387%
| Substitute 6.255%
| Other 14.767%

While you claim it's beating Pex and Celesteela with Electrium-Z, the data simply does not support that at a high level of play. Nor is fightinium Z used with any degree of frequency. I'm not saying that use=viability entirely but what you're claiming is its niche worth keeping it in C+ simply isn't happening in practice...

You also claim that Shadow Ball is the mandatory move but it actually has a lower use rate than Focus Blast. I stand by my nom to drop it.

 

[Adapt or Die]

Let's look at the most recent 1825+ stats.
Gengar had 1.56502% use in the 1825+ bracket. Use isn't entirely related to viability but we'll keep going here. Of that 1.57%, these are the stats on items.

Items

| Life Orb 58.908%
| Choice Specs 12.857%
| Choice Scarf 12.648%
| Ghostium Z 7.861%
| Black Sludge 4.707%
| Other 3.019%

And these are the stats on moves

Moves

| Focus Blast 85.558%
| Shadow Ball 84.702%
| Sludge Wave 84.036%
| Destiny Bond 65.488%
| Trick 20.104%
| Hex 18.807%
| Taunt 7.419%
| Hidden Power Ice 6.477%
| Will-O-Wisp 6.387%
| Substitute 6.255%
| Other 14.767%

While you claim it's beating Pex and Celesteela with Electrium-Z, the data simply does not support that at a high level of play. Nor is fightinium Z used with any degree of frequency. I'm not saying that use=viability entirely but what you're claiming is its niche simply isn't happening...

You also claim that Shadow Ball is the mandatory move but it actually has a lower use rate than Focus Blast. I stand by my nom to drop it.

I dislike using usage stats to say certain sets are/aren't viable, because it assumes our community is all knowing and all using. Gigavolt Gengar could be its best set, but because so few people actually use gengar we might not know this. Usage stats are useful to know what it used in the meta, but there could still be undiscovered sets. Now Scuba Diver does have a point. If giga-gar is actually a pretty nifty set then let's get some quality replays on it, because no one actually uses it.

That said DROP GENGAR LIKE A STONE! I would actually argue to unrank it though I guess it has some niche applications over blacephalon, in most cases the killer clown badly outclasses it. Beast Boost lets blacephalon clean like a boss with its scarf set or be a threatening set up sweeper with speed boosting calm mind. Meanwhile gengar gets 3 base speed points that rarely matter (since blace is usually getting to +1 speed, and relevant mons between them in speed tier are keldeo which owns them both anyways and kartana which also has its own speed boosting shenanigans), stab poison (as if there's a fairy or grass type mon on this planet that can stand upto blace but not gar), and focus blast (which is kinda the only real reason to use gengar).

Believe me I'm not just hating on gengar because I don't like it. I actually love gengar, and used it all the time in gen 6. Just haven't put it on an OU team since blacephalon was released.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

You didn't tell us anything about why Mimikyu in the current state of the metagame should be unranked, but rather tried to tell us some of its "flaws" that it always had. If Mimikyu wasn't suited for OU based on what you said, it would've been unranked a long time ago. I don't have an opinion on whether it should drop or not, but unranking a mon for the reasons you mentioned won't cut it. You need to discuss current meta trends and how they impact or affect a mon enough to where its viability has changed. Finally, even if Mimikyu dropped to UU, there are plenty of non OU mons that are viable in OU. The tier they are in doesn't matter as much as what they can do in the OU tier, and I highly recommend you try to read some of the other posts to see how to properly suggest a mon dropping a rank.

If you want to know what Mimikyu does, you can read the analysis here.

i think it's important to note this: are we voting on everything off the basic ass sets on the site in the meta or the actual useless and potential of the mon with people that actually use it seriously (Vs the really basic and non thought out sets on that site)? Before I respond I actually want to know because I'm honestly on the fence on if it should be ranked as well.
*For anyone that doesn't know who I am I legit run 3-4 psychic types on a squad and the kyu has still never been a threat, it's really tragic

 

[Colonel M]

i think it's important to note this: are we voting on everything off the basic ass sets on the site in the meta or the actual useless and potential of the mon with people that actually use it seriously (Vs the really basic and non thought out sets on that site)? Before I respond I actually want to know because I'm honestly on the fence on if it should be ranked as well.
*For anyone that doesn't know who I am I legit run 3-4 psychic types on a squad and the kyu has still never been a threat, it's really tragic

Whatever is competitively viable, high success, and relevant with a niche that is actually desired in teams without making significant sacrifices to support it.

It can be the "basic ass" sets on site or more woke ish tournament / ladder sets that have viable niches and not nonsense like Scarf Wartortle.

 

[Finchinator]

Kommo-O should be C or C+.

It has a couple viable sets and it is gaining traction as a whole. While I would agree with the niche classification it has in the C ranks, it is better than the other complete bottom-dwellers.

We have seen the merits of the defensive variant on stall numerous times. It has a specific defensive presence and range of checking prowess that at times warrants usage over anything else. This is more than what can be said for your typically C- pokemon. Couple this with a couple tournament uses and the necessary moves to pull off the set and you get a pretty compelling case to begin with.

However, the clear main selling point has to be the offensive variants, imo. They’re pretty potent on the higher portion of the ladder atm, finding their way on to HO and even some random BOs, too. It can be a potent sweeper with its Z move or BDdum, oftentimes requiring surprisingly specific counterplay to be kept in check. While it’s still quite far from being a mainstay or metagame staple, you can likely see why it belongs in a bit higher of a subrank than the absolute lowest one.

Speaking of absolute lows, regular Latios and Latias. Yea

 

[Counting Sheep]

Ew, Vr
I'd argue that regular Latios is pretty nice right now, specifically this set:


Latios @ Waterium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Surf
- Recover
- Defog

It works really nice on bulky offences, working both in a defensive and offensive core.

Latios has a nice typing allowing it to switch in on current common mons such as Heatran, Toxapex, Gliscor, Tangrowth, Zapdos* and Rotom-W* (*can paralysis), as well as being a nice quick check to a lot of the tiers common choiced locked moves, in being able to switch in to Kokos Tbolt, Karts Swords, Greninja Water stab, Lando Eq, though it is to be noted that they can predict you in turn and ko you, however the options there. While not only providing for for the defensive core, it also works as a great defoger currently as it can come in on common hazard setters in Heatran, Gliscor and Toxapex for near free to remove hazards, while pressuring Rocks LandoT through revenging and can somewhat lure in Tyranitar Mega* (Surf into Hydro Vortex does 86.1min to Ttar Mega, so 98.6 after rocks, Surf into regular Ttar then Hydo Vortex on the Mega does 91.3min, Hydro Vortex in to regular Ttar then into Surf on the Mega does 96min. So either Mega Ttar is picked off after Rocks damage, or is left severely weakened with no Rocks).

Latios also contributes nicely to the teams offence as well, luring both Heatran and Tyranitar for the teams game plan, while its speed and attack allow it to work also as a revenge killer for anything under its speed. Slower bulkier mons also have a hard time wearing Latios down too, allowing Latios to slowly dish out damage throughout the game, weakening answers such as Fini, Magearna and Spdef Bulu, applying pressure well throughout the match.

I'm not sure if the meta has shifted to make Latios good, or just that it has been forgotten about, however Toxapex, Heatran and Gliscors current high usage work only for Latios's benefit, so I'd argue Latios is as viable as most of the mons in B-, so Latios (Regular) to B-

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-856178562Pressure Slow Bulk

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-856127925Lures Heatran for M.Scizor

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-856105064Lures Tyranitar

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-856061177Pressure Offence