Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

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Finchinator

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Weav is fine in B. It's not a necessarily good Pokemon and its niche is increasingly limited considering that the Scarf set is hardly something to value much given its lack of usage/showings and the Band set faces competition from Pokemon that have actual defensive footprints such as Tyranitar. It does boast a superb speed stat coupled with a nice dual STAB, but in a metagame where longevity is no laughing matter, Weavile remains a niche option as opposed to a more consistent metagame staple type like it was in ORAS. This does not mean it should be B-, however, as it still has a recognizable niche, distinguishing itself from Pokemon that are hardly ever seen that almost all reside in B- and lower.
 
I would like to nominate Azumarill-->C+/B-
I will mostly be discussing the perish-trap set, and how it is a lot more than just a ladder gimmick.

While its certainly the less common set (Belly Drum 59.713%Perish Song 12.875% | perish trap Azu performs several roles, ranging from bulky balance (or even stall) breaker to a simple defensive switch-in. I will be discussing how Azumarill can perform both of these roles effectively.

Balance/Stall Breaker/Support
One of the main reasons why perish-trap Azu works is because of the sheer surprise factor it has. Due to the fact that offensive Azu is the ever most common set, other players will switch in a defensive wall that can eat up any of its stab attacks. Most of the mons that would switch-in into Azu are bulky, slow mons that the perish trap set takes care of easily. Some of the mons that would come in include (but not limited to): Amoongus, Toxapex, Venusaur, Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, etc.. Most of these mons are of course pretty annoying and there are a plethora of pokemons that would appreciate these bulky grasses/pex gone. For instance, Gren. As they switch in expecting the incoming Play Rough, they instead get hit by a whirpool, trapping them and killing them three turns later. These mons face no threat to Azumarill, as Azu completely eats up its attacks with Sap Sipper, its typing, and a respectable 100 base HP. The only downside to this, are mons who can stack hazads, but pair this with a good defogger/spinner and you should really be okay. In addition to the aforementioned mons, Azu has a really easy time trapping bulky waters, as he can easily rest off the damage (e.g. Cune, Bro, Alomomola etc) which are not as common in OU as the other mons, but they are by no means irrelevant.
Perish Song is also a really valuable tool which can be utilized to save the game from an incoming sweep. I would say Perish Song is a move that is always good to have on a team, shame its so uncommon.

Defensive Wall

Like I said earlier, Azumarill has respectable defenses, which are accompanied by an ever better ability as well as an amazing typing. A mon with a Water/fairy typing accompanied by Sap Sipper can switch into SO MANY specially defensive attackers in the tier. One of the most important pokemon it walls is our beloved OU frog, Greninja. Azumarill absolutely eats up any single move this mon can throw at him (barring the Protean Gunk Shot variant) but most of the time they wont have it, or simply just scout for it.
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Azumarill: 129-152 (31.9 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Greninja Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Azumarill: 109-129 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 36.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Yes, Azumarill still works as a Gren counter even in its Ash Form.
I can even go as far as saying that it is LEGITIMATELY the only viable pokemon that can switch in into any variable of Heatran, perhaps one of the most relevant mons as of now.

In addition, Azu completely walls any grass type, and can even work as an emergency switch in for Kartana.
Some of the offensive mons that Azu can switch into include (but not limited to): Serperior, (Ash) Gren, Mega Gyarados, Blacephalon,Heatran, Tapu Bulu,and Volcarona, Kingdra, Keldeo

Replays

I did not know I was going to write a whole essay about a pokemon so I did not save the countless times Azumarill has saved me in a game. I do have some that I found laying around so we will have to work with what we have got. I recently started to use it in a team I built and it has worked out wonders.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861572124 --> In this replay Azumarill literally saves the game, perish song-ing the crocune, as well as the clefable. They got really bulky with the CM's and Azu stopped them. At the end you can see azu eating up +1 moonblasts like its NOTHING.



https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861560356 --> Vs stall.
In this (high ladder-ish) battle the opponent realized that absolutely nothing could be done about the blue rabbit. This replay just demonstrates that while the surprise factor is really good, his effectiveness is not limited to catching an unaware (not the ability) incoming mon.


Set

WP BEARTIc (Azumarill) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Perish Song
- Rest
- Protect

This is the spread I like the most. Its able to tank up neutral attacks as well from stuff like Zam, scarf lele, Blacephalon.

Miscellaneous
Before any of you try to shit on this set you should really try it a few games, and decide if its worth the rank. I am leaning towards a B- but friends have told me thats a bit of a stretch, let me know what you think.

TLDR: Its good vs bulky balance/stall, can switch into 2/3 S rank mons without any problem. Walls grass and water types ez.

I definitely think Azu has the potential to be in the same tier of a pokemon i would deem as an inferior trapper, and not much more than a gimmicky and niche pick, Pyukumuku


159837



(AZUMARILL GIF)

EDIT: FIXED REPLAYS
 
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I think you maybe should pick at least another replay, because in the First one it only is catching CroCrune, which is not that big of a concern in the meta and because it would be nice to see how it performs in the long run, and the stall replay is really not worth it, because the player obviously was frustrated and quite like in Turn 2. Why did you even pick it, its not showing anything.
Overall, imo, the sad sipper set is way to passive and a huge momentum drainer, and if you arent lucky and only got those 2 whirpool rounds you end up with a still sleeping Azurmarill which cant do anything if not Supported by Heal Bell (and because your sample team is balance or BO, there is no such thing, at least normally).
 
Sap Sipper Azu was nominated to B- back in December of 2017. While I agreed with it at the time, I no longer do. The ban of Zygarde has resulted in Washtom and Amoongus (and to a lesser extent Venusaur) surging back in viability. Tapu Koko is also on the rise and Tapu Bulu is a bit less viable in the current environment. Most builds with Azu forgo Toxapex as their special wall, which many here are calling to be placed in S rank. I think the overall slightly shittier meta for it + opportunity cost of not running Toxapex should keep Azu in C. Pex is much bulkier, doesn't waste momentum resting and has reliable recovery in addition to supporting its team with tspikes. I just don't think there's any real favorable meta change that would justify moving it up since the last time it was nominated. I'd be open to dropping it, I think both Azu sets are absolute trash rn (more so than usual).
 
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While I do understand where you are coming from I certainly do not agree with you.

You mention how Bulu is becoming less viable in the current environment, usage stats seem to prove otherwise. I literally do not have a single clue as to where you got this information from as usage stats from 1825+ ladder (and SPL as well) seem to show that there has been virtually no change in usage before and after the Zyg ban. While you may have argued using the word "viability" I think that youre mistaken, as we should be talking about popularity, and not "viability". Azu does notcare about how "good" Bulu is, it cares about how often its faced against him.

In your second point you mention how the post Zyg meta has affected Azu, saying that it brings up in popularity mons like Amoon and Venusaur. Azu can deal with Amoon (as it tanks a few Sludge Bombs) and Venusaur. Azu forces these mons in, tank a few hits and click PS. Secondly, while it is true that Koko and Rotom W have a good matchup against Azu, it does not make him even close to being unviable. Following that logic then Pex should be shit at this meta, while its certainly not the case.

Lastly, remember that Azu is being nommed for c+/b-of course it is gonna have flaws, thats why I'm not nominating it for s tier. In my post I explained how Azu has several niches that he excells at, and id say its the best it has been in.
 

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Estronic

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While you may have argued using the word "viability" I think that youre mistaken, as we should be talking about popularity, and not uh "viability".
It's called Viability Rankings for a reason, you know.
In your second point you mention how the post Zyg meta has affected Azu, saying that it brings up in popularity mons like Amoon and Venusaur???? Mons that azumarill is a literal counter too?
Calling Azumarill a counter to Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur just because Azumarill has Sap Sipper is extremely far-fetched, especially when both can run Sludge Bomb.

Anyways, Azumarill really shouldn't rise just because of its gimmick Perish Trap set. Once that set is scouted, it can be easily played around. Plus, the decline of bulky Grass-types like Tangrowth makes Sap Sipper not as useful. Also, once the set has been scouted, it can easily be played around, not to mention a really good player (as in an SPL player or close to one) can determine what set it is at Team Preview. Though, I will acknowledge why it shouldn't drop either. If Azumarill actually catches someone off guard, it could possibly lead to a huge turning point in the battle. Then again, Whirlpool's accuracy is a bit shaky, so the set still has flaws regardless.

tl;dr Azumarill shouldn't rise or drop. Its Perish Trap set is too flawed and gimmicky, but can cost a battle when used correct, albeit it's a challenge.

Oh, and I'm on board with adding S- rank again. Pokemon like Landorus-T and Toxapex are extremely good but not enough for S in my opinion. Therefore, a borderline between S and A+ would be great for Pokemon that are amazing but still have glaring weaknesses that can be taken advantage of.
 
Anyways, Azumarill really shouldn't rise just because of its gimmick Perish Trap set. Once that set is scouted, it can be easily played around. Plus, the decline of bulky Grass-types like Tangrowth makes Sap Sipper not as useful. Also, once the set has been scouted, it can easily be played around, not to mention a really good player (as in an SPL player or close to one) can determine what set it is at Team Preview. Though, I will acknowledge why it shouldn't drop either. If Azumarill actually catches someone off guard, it could possibly lead to a huge turning point in the battle. Then again, Whirlpool's accuracy is a bit shaky, so the set still has flaws regardless.
I'm going to hard disagree with this statement. One whirlpool's 6% additional damage means it's getting solid chip 85% of the time, meaning with rocks and protect it is doing 24% every switchin without factoring in whirlpool's shitty damage and netting a 3HKO (on the switch) on a lot of mons. Second, even when I know it's there it's still a pain to deal with depending on matchup. Certain high profile mons (Ash-Gren, Superpower Bulu, Serperior...) can't damage it at all so azu comes in for free on them. Meanwhile the number of mons that can abuse perish-trap azu is surprisingly low, because most defensive mons get trap-killed by it and most offensive mons can only switch into it twice.

Azu has its flaws, as it's difficult to fit onto teams. Whirlpool accuracy is an aggravating 85% and it needs team mates that it can switch out to as outside of its choice matchups it can't just stay in and whirlpool things. And it is very matchup dependent (but so is say hawlucha). That said the perception that perish trap is dumb gimmick is just plain wrong. It is an effective if unconventional set. Rise Azu to C+.
 

Finchinator

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And we're back! Today, I have a pretty big slate with a lot of changes, so I hope you guys are excited to see what is in store and ready to chime in with more thoughts in the following days so that we can keep the ball rolling in the near future. Slate

Rises

Magearna from A+ to S: Magearna has been seen as one of the better Pokemon in the tier for years now, topping threat lists and being one of the most potent win conditions in recent memory. On top of this, it also has had a consistent utility and defensive presence, checking a plethora of common, otherwise problematic special threats with a common Assault Vest set and occasionally even neutralizing opposing set-up with the Heart Swap variant. All of this is great, but what is it that puts Magearna over the top now, making it S rank as opposed to A+? The answer predominantly lies within the recent results of the Shift Gear variant, proving to turn around or clean up a number of relevant tournament games in recent weeks while also taking the ladder by storm, becoming even more of a staple on hyper-offense and an increasingly reliable pick on bulky-offense and even balance with the Shift Gear sets. Finally, one last thing to note is that Magearna's versatility is still somehow increasing despite it already being unmatched in that department. In recent months, the Calm Mind + Pain Split variant has been popping up more and more, perhaps putting it over the top.

Tapu Fini from B to B+: Tapu Fini's Defog utility simply has grown more useful with the decline of specific Grass types and increase in Heatran and Ash Greninja. It is by no means a metagame staple like it once was during SM, but it is back to seeing somewhat regular usage, which is enough to warrant a rise to B+.

Jirachi and
Amoonguss from B- to B: Jirachi has been popping up a lot more ever since Smogon Tour playoffs, even surging after the Zygarde ban. It has a nice defensive presence and it can also run a niche Choice Scarf set. Amoonguss, similarly, saw an increase in usage and effectiveness after Zygarde got banned. This is largely due to the decrease in need for Grass types that check Thousand Arrows.

Kyurem from C to B-: The Substitute + Roost variant of Kyurem has proven to be ridiculously threatening to balance teams, oftentimes provoking awkward defensive sequences and making progress whenever a specific defensive presence it can take advantage of comes in. Kyurem is one of the most annoying Pokemon to face currently and it is seeing an increase in usage because of this. Overall, Kyurem is seeing a double rise here because of the fact that we probably overlooked it last time and it has played a significant role in a lot of relevant games.

Mega Gallade from C to C+,
Mega Garchomp from C- to C, and
Kommo-O from C- to C: Here we have three up-and-coming offensive presences in the metagame. While none are spectacular or too common quite yet, they are beginning to appear sporadically, hence the slight bump. It is also worth noting that Kommo-O has a niche as a utility Stealth Rock setter, too.

---

Drops

Tapu Bulu from A+ to A: While Tapu Bulu is still a potent threat, its overall utility has dropped more and more as time elapsed. Seeing as it was already a fringe A+/A Pokemon to begin with, this slight drop should be no real surprise. Tapu Bulu's classic Specially Defensive variants have been falling off a lot as of late and while the offensive sets, especially Choice Band, have steadily picked up, it is not enough to make up for the one-time staple status that it had attained. Perhaps one day soon Tapu Bulu will find itself back in A+, but for now it will fit in among the other A rankers.

Mega Diancie from A- to B+: Mega Diancie really has never caught on and there are hardly any common teams or tournament games displaying it currently. While it has a niche as an offensive, anti-Defogger Stealth Rock setter and it has nice utility, the fact of the matter is that it is at an all-time-low in terms of appeal, hence the drop.

Hawlucha,
Hoopa-Unbound and,
Mega Pinsir from B+ to B: All three of these Pokemon are potentially threatening offensive presences who simply do not see much usage anymore. Hawlucha was once a top-tier win condition, but now is merely an option to use on HO. Hoopa-Unbound has seen some days where it was a respectable balance breaker, but now it's rarely even considered. Mega Pinsir has fallen completely off the map, not appearing in really any games in tournaments, let alone on the higher portion of the ladder by more serious players. All things considered, these three all have potential, but are not the most practical options right now and the playerbase has shown that with their decisions.

Alomomola from B to B-: The fish has no real utility outside of some fringe-viable stalls right now. It is hardly ever used on balanced teams and so long as this continues to be the case, it will continue to drop.

Gengar,
Mimikyu, and
Latias from C+ to C: None of these Pokemon are remotely appealing currently. Gengar has seen much better days, but now nobody uses it due to how common faster threats or common checks are. Mimikyu is absolute garbage who only has the slightest of niches due to a unique ability, but even having a free second life in most games does not save it from being complete shit. Latias has a niche solely because it has a fast Healing Wish it can abuse with a Choice Scarf; otherwise, it might as well be unranked. Overall, they all are pretty bad and rarely fit on to solid teams, so the drops should be unsurprising.

Ribombee and
Araquanid from C+ to C: Webs sucks.

Latios from C+ to C-: It barely even has a niche as neither it, nor Latias, should be used really ever, but at least Latias can give teams some support with healing wish. There are far too many top tier threats that completely blank Latios in this generation, sadly. While it may have some niche with situational lure variants thanks to its movepool, they are oftentimes better-off being used by other, more consistent options.

Avalugg from C to C-, Ninetales-Alola from C to C-, Alakazam from C to C-, Mega-Aerodactyl from C- to UR, and Shuckle from C- to UR: All of these Pokemon are so bad and sporadically considered, let alone actually used, that they do not even get their own mini-sprite next to their names in the description. They also do not get individual attention in the description, so this is a wrap.
 
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Nominating
Protrean Greninja from A to A+


Skyhigh SPL usage makes it pretty clear that protean gren deserves a rise along with the others presented here in the new slate. A ridiculously flexible offensive presence paired with inherent anti-meta traits (ontop of never being dead weight due to spikes) all point towards a rise in viability rank as worthy thing.
 
And we're back! Today, I have a pretty big slate with a lot of changes, so I hope you guys are excited to see what is in store and ready to chime in with more thoughts in the following days so that we can keep the ball rolling in the near future. Slate

Rises

Magearna from A+ to S: Magearna has been seen as one of the better Pokemon in the tier for years now, topping threat lists and being one of the most potent win conditions in recent memory. On top of this, it also has had a consistent utility and defensive presence, checking a plethora of common, otherwise problematic special threats with a common Assault Vest set and occasionally even neutralizing opposing set-up with the Heart Swap variant. All of this is great, but what is it that puts Magearna over the top now, making it S rank as opposed to A+? The answer predominantly lies within the recent results of the Shift Gear variant, proving to turn around or clean up a number of relevant tournament games in recent weeks while also taking the ladder by storm, becoming even more of a staple on hyper-offense and an increasingly reliable pick on bulky-offense and even balance with the Shift Gear sets. Finally, one last thing to note is that Magearna's versatility is still somehow increasing despite it already being unmatched in that department. In recent months, the Calm Mind + Pain Split variant has been popping up more and more, perhaps putting it over the top.

Tapu Fini from B to B+: Tapu Fini's Defog utility simply has grown more useful with the decline of specific Grass types and increase in Heatran and Ash Greninja. It is by no means a metagame staple like it once was during SM, but it is back to seeing somewhat regular usage, which is enough to warrant a rise to B+.

Jirachi and
Amoonguss from B- to B: Jirachi has been popping up a lot more ever since Smogon Tour playoffs, even surging after the Zygarde ban. It has a nice defensive presence and it can also run a niche Choice Scarf set. Amoonguss, similarly, saw an increase in usage and effectiveness after Zygarde got banned. This is largely due to the decrease in need for Grass types that check Thousand Arrows.

Kyurem from C to B-: The Substitute + Roost variant of Kyurem has proven to be ridiculously threatening to balance teams, oftentimes provoking awkward defensive sequences and making progress whenever a specific defensive presence it can take advantage of comes in. Kyurem is one of the most annoying Pokemon to face currently and it is seeing an increase in usage because of this. Overall, Kyurem is seeing a double rise here because of the fact that we probably overlooked it last time and it has played a significant role in a lot of relevant games.

Mega Gallade from C to C+,
Mega Garchomp from C- to C, and
Kommo-O from C- to C: Here we have three up-and-coming offensive presences in the metagame. While none are spectacular or too common quite yet, they are beginning to appear sporadically, hence the slight bump. It is also worth noting that Kommo-O has a niche as a utility Stealth Rock setter, too.

---

Drops

Tapu Bulu from A+ to A: While Tapu Bulu is still a potent threat, its overall utility has dropped more and more as time elapsed. Seeing as it was already a fringe A+/A Pokemon to begin with, this slight drop should be no real surprise. Tapu Bulu's classic Specially Defensive variants have been falling off a lot as of late and while the offensive sets, especially Choice Band, have steadily picked up, it is not enough to make up for the one-time staple status that it had attained. Perhaps one day soon Tapu Bulu will find itself back in A+, but for now it will fit in among the other A rankers.

Mega Diancie from A- to B+: Mega Diancie really has never caught on and there are hardly any common teams or tournament games displaying it currently. While it has a niche as an offensive, anti-Defogger Stealth Rock setter and it has nice utility, the fact of the matter is that it is at an all-time-low in terms of appeal, hence the drop.

Hawlucha,
Hoopa-Unbound and,
Mega Pinsir from B+ to B: All three of these Pokemon are potentially threatening offensive presences who simply do not see much usage anymore. Hawlucha was once a top-tier win condition, but now is merely an option to use on HO. Hoopa-Unbound has seen some days where it was a respectable balance breaker, but now it's rarely even considered. Mega Pinsir has fallen completely off the map, not appearing in really any games in tournaments, let alone on the higher portion of the ladder by more serious players. All things considered, these three all have potential, but are not the most practical options right now and the playerbase has shown that with their decisions.

Alomomola from B to B-: The fish has no real utility outside of some fringe-viable stalls right now. It is hardly ever used on balanced teams and so long as this continues to be the case, it will continue to drop.

Gengar,
Mimikyu, and
Latias from C+ to C: None of these Pokemon are remotely appealing currently. Gengar has seen much better days, but now nobody uses it due to how common faster threats or common checks are. Mimikyu is absolute garbage who only has the slightest of niches due to a unique ability, but even having a free second life in most games does not save it from being complete shit. Latias has a niche solely because it has a fast Healing Wish it can abuse with a Choice Scarf; otherwise, it might as well be unranked. Overall, they all are pretty bad and rarely fit on to solid teams, so the drops should be unsurprising.

Ribombee and
Araquanid from C+ to C: Webs sucks.

Latios from C+ to C-: It barely even has a niche as neither it, nor Latias, should be used really ever, but at least Latias can give teams some support with healing wish. There are far too many top tier threats that completely blank Latios in this generation, sadly. While it may have some niche with situational lure variants thanks to its movepool, they are oftentimes better-off being used by other, more consistent options.

Avalugg from C to C-, Ninetales-Alola from C to C-, Alakazam from C to C-, Mega-Aerodactyl from C- to UR, and Shuckle from C- to UR: All of these Pokemon are so bad and sporadically considered, let alone actually used, that they do not even get their own mini-sprite next to their names in the description. They also do not get individual attention in the description, so this is a wrap.
I'm a little disappointed Ninetales didn't make it onto the board as I think sun is really underrated, but not terribly surprised since 0 tour players are using it.

I would like to nom Kommo-O > C+ (or higher, but I can probably only convince people of C+): The Komodo dragon just rose a rank so why rise it again? Because sub-drum is frankly amazing right now. Kommo-o sets up on metagame staples ferrothorn, ash-gren, blacephalon, tyranitar, and heatran with ease. Heatran and tyranitar are the only ones of these that can break sub with consistency, putting the opponent in a bind of whether to lose high value mons or give kommo-o a turn to sub. Once behind a sub, counterplay to Kommo-O is pretty limited.

The most common ways to deal with it are 1) max speed scarf lando/lele outspeeds and forces it to attack or switch out as they revenge kills +1 Kommo 2) Toxapex comes in and forces a series of guessing games of when the belly drum is going to happen, 3) A mon that forces Kommo-O to tpunch (instead of drain punch) (like tapu fini) sacks itself to take down sub for another mon to revenge kill with scarf or priority, and 4) Hawlucha revenge kills after tapu oif choice removes sub.

That may seem like a lot of counter play, but one of these strategies is unreliable, and two result in the loss of a mon making the exchange a wash depending on team construction. Once Kommo-O gets a drain punch off, it is usually winning as very few mons can ohko it and outspeed it. The komodo dragon has too many setup opportunities, and can dismantle too many teams for it not to be ranked higher. There are of course more uncommon strategies (haze fini) but you won't find them in most of your games. Unaware Clefable is the best answer to it, but I see this mon pretty much never outside of stall (which Kommo is not built to beat anyways).

Anecdotal evidence, but I currently have 6 viable USUM teams (peak 1800-1950), 3 of which run sub-drum Kommo-o because it is that easy to fit onto them.

Last but not least, Clang Soul Kommo has z opportunity cost, but can destroy teams that thought they were facing sub and is a solid set in its own right. Defensive rocks also sees some usage, so Kommo-O has some decent versatility to play mind games. This mon is too threatening, too splashable, and too versatile to be languishing in C-tier with the likes of Latias.
 
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Colonel M

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I'm not on OU VR team but would like to make a nomination.

Excadril to A-

Sand right now is pretty good, and the nice thing about Excadrill is that the decrease of Tangrowth makes it mildly easier to use. While there's still checks to be wary of, it's great for a few reasons. First the suicide lead - Suicide Lead can keep rocks up fairly consistently since Defog Rotom-W doesn't want to think about Mold Breaker Earthqauke and Tornadus-T can't take too many Rock Tombs. Rock Tomb is really nice for preventing setup and Rapid Spin is actually a great move since it prevents Contrary Serperior from switching in too easily (whereas it can on some Defog Pokemon like Rotom-W). In sand it has great Speed control and there arent too many other weathers that compete at the moment (rain exists but it's not ultra common and sun is literally Zard Y, none of this Ninetales bs).

I think between its qualities of its supportive and offensive utility while also being pretty reliable Pokemon to switch into every now and then such as Specs Koko, I feel Excadrill's surge in SPL should be accounted for in its ranking and thus get an appropriate tier rise.

I mistooken Mega Latias with Mega Latios. My bad.
 
Excadril to A-

Sand right now is pretty good, and the nice thing about Excadrill is that the decrease of Tangrowth makes it mildly easier to use. While there's still checks to be wary of, it's great for a few reasons. First the suicide lead - Suicide Lead can keep rocks up fairly consistently since Defog Rotom-W doesn't want to think about Mold Breaker Earthqauke and Tornadus-T can't take too many Rock Tombs. Rock Tomb is really nice for preventing setup and Rapid Spin is actually a great move since it prevents Contrary Serperior from switching in too easily (whereas it can on some Defog Pokemon like Rotom-W). In sand it has great Speed control and there arent too many other weathers that compete at the moment (rain exists but it's not ultra common and sun is literally Zard Y, none of this Ninetales bs).
I completely agree with an Excadrill rise. Its lead sets still do a good job against some rising trends (i.e. the return of Koko, Rotom-W being everywhere, stuff that gets plowed by Rock Tomb, etc.) and Sand is a bit better, but I still feel that you're discounting the merit Ninetales and Venusaur have at the moment even if they aren't completely ideal.
Nominating
Protrean Greninja from A to A+


Skyhigh SPL usage makes it pretty clear that protean gren deserves a rise along with the others presented here in the new slate. A ridiculously flexible offensive presence paired with inherent anti-meta traits (ontop of never being dead weight due to spikes) all point towards a rise in viability rank as worthy thing.
Please for the love of God rise Protean Greninja. I firmly disagreed with it dropping from A+ before and I believe now more than ever before that it's more than deserving of a rise to A+. Its movepool is incredibly diverse. It picks and chooses its counters. And with Magearna rising again I'd argue that its rather slept-on Z-Dig set has a lot more merit than it used to. Give it Spikes and three other moves and potentially slap a Z-Crystal of your choosing on it and you've got yourself arguably the most unpredictable threat in the entire tier bar none.
 
to C-:
I see almost no reason to use Thundurus-T over other Electric-Types such as Tapu Koko. It's speed is not that good, its defenses are shit - expect it to get 2HKO'ed by even weak users of super effective coverage, and it requires Nasty Plot and Agility to set up. No seriously, TWO turns. You see how bad this stupid trashpile is? I know I've built OU teams centering around it in the past, and they haven't disappointed me. But seriously, when was the last time you saw this thing on a competitive team? Zygarde may have left, but bulky pokemon are on the rise, so what this basically means is that they can wall Thundurus-T easily and effortlessly, cripple it with status or wear it down with their attacks. It can't break past the resident steel-types, (all of which have became more common) since even Thunderbolt won't do too much unless boosted by Nasty Plot. Speaking of Nasty Plot, Thundurus-T NEEDS this in order to wallbreak effectively, something a lot of other pokemon don't have to deal with. Yeah, it sports a good defensive typing - however, that goes to waste due to its poor defenses meaning that it dies to some of the top meta trends, such as Heatran, Ice Beam Magearna (Something I've been trying recently), Ferrothorn, Mega Mawile, etc. while it either can't do much back or dies trying to set up. Of course, this is why Thundurus-T finds itself outclassed by Thundurus-I, Mega Manectric, Tapu Koko, Rotom-W, and Magnezone, since all of them barring Rotom-W and Magnezone have better speed tiers, provide team support of their own in the case of the latter three, and all of them are generally bulkier. They are able to deal with some of the top meta trends better. A nasty weakness to SR, lack of recovery, an only decent speed tier, and inability to deal with specially bulky pokemon makes it a bad pick for an OverUsed team imo. While I would have personally moved it to UR, still being able to deal with Ash-Greninja, its big brother Tornadus-T, and Garchomp still gives it a niche here.
 
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TPP

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to C-/UR:
I see absolutely no reason to use Thundurus-T over other Electric-Types such as Tapu Koko. It's speed is shit, not even outspeeding max speed investment Mega Garchomp, its defenses are shit - expect it to get 2HKO'ed by even weak users of super effective coverage, and it requires Nasty Plot and Agility to set up. No seriously, TWO fucking turns. You see how bad this stupid pile of shit is? I know I've built OU teams centering around it in the past, and they haven't disappointed me. But seriously, when was the last time you saw this thing on a competitive team? Zygarde may have left, but in its departure, Garchomp and its Mega Bro rose in usage. Garchomp can set Stealth Rock and KO with Dragon Claw, and Mega Garchomp doesn't even need Swords Dance or Sand Force to hit hard. Just click Stone Edge and Thundurus-T is done for. Nuff said. Thundurus-T is a waste of a teamslot and should never be considered over other electric-types such as Tapu Koko, Magnezone, and Rotom-W. Quite literally. Demote this thing to UU or RUBL. It was and will never be viable here in OverUsed.
Did you just say a base 101 speed can't outspeed base 92 speed mon? It's an offensive mon, not some fat set up sweeper like Reuniclus. It doesn't always need Agility, Nasty Plot + 3 attacks (Thunderbolt + HP Ice + Focus Blast) can be a good wallbreaking set that's very difficult to switch into. Its typing actually helps it set up and also helps avoid being KO'd by common mons such as Torn-T, Ferrothorn, Special Defensive Tapu Bulu, so it's not like it's completely useless.

Regarding Garchomp, no shit a physical attacker is KO'ing an offensive Flying-type with Stone Edge. You don't stay in for that reason and if you're letting it die for no reason and then claiming it sucks, learn to play the game and then come back before posting. I highly suggest you learn how to properly use it before spouting nonsense and suggesting to drop it to another tier let alone 2 (which we don't even do since we rank mons by viability and not usage). Heatran gets outsped and 1HKO'd by Lando and Garchomp, Greninja gets outsped and KO'd by Mega Lopunny, are we going to drop them to UU because of that? Of course we're not because that's not how this game works. Also, Garchomp is just 1 mon in the entire tier. There's a ton of mons Thundurus can handle and regular offensive Garchomp just isn't one of them. Look over other posts to see how we do things here before trying to unrank a mon. Thanks.

It's been a few months, but the most recent tour game I remember seeing it in would be smogon tour finals here.
 
to C-:
I see almost no reason to use Thundurus-T over other Electric-Types such as Tapu Koko. It's speed is not that good, its defenses are shit - expect it to get 2HKO'ed by even weak users of super effective coverage, and it requires Nasty Plot and Agility to set up. No seriously, TWO turns. You see how bad this stupid trashpile is? I know I've built OU teams centering around it in the past, and they haven't disappointed me. But seriously, when was the last time you saw this thing on a competitive team? Zygarde may have left, but bulky pokemon are on the rise, so what this basically means is that they can wall Thundurus-T easily and effortlessly, cripple it with status or wear it down with their attacks. It can't break past the resident steel-types, (all of which have became more common) since even Thunderbolt won't do too much unless boosted by Nasty Plot. Speaking of Nasty Plot, Thundurus-T NEEDS this in order to wallbreak effectively, something a lot of other pokemon don't have to deal with. Yeah, it sports a good defensive typing - however, that goes to waste due to its poor defenses meaning that it dies to some of the top meta trends, such as Heatran, Ice Beam Magearna (Something I've been trying recently), Ferrothorn, Mega Mawile, etc. while it either can't do much back or dies trying to set up. Of course, this is why Thundurus-T finds itself outclassed by Thundurus-I, Mega Manectric, Tapu Koko, Rotom-W, and Magnezone, since all of them barring Rotom-W and Magnezone have better speed tiers, provide team support of their own in the case of the latter three, and all of them are generally bulkier. They are able to deal with some of the top meta trends better. A nasty weakness to SR, lack of recovery, an only decent speed tier, and inability to deal with specially bulky pokemon makes it a bad pick for an OverUsed team imo.
I completely disagree with you. Its been used more lately with cele-pex being popular. 101 speed is actually pretty good, and It's actually glad zygarde left, as there aren't nearly as many bulky grasses running around. In fact, I'd actually think thundurus-T and thundrus-I should swap places on the VR, as the incarnate form is actually used quite a bit less than its therian counterpart, owing to the fact that HO is worse(Less defiant sets, arguably its best set), and the nasty plot set is sort of outclassed by thundurus-t, as the metagame has become bulkier and power has become more important.
 

talah

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couple stuff I wanted to see happen but forgot about last update

to B: Manaphy's got a solid niche in Rain, being able to get past almost every popular Water resist with relative ease while also being able to forego Psychic if needed(in Rain of course) in favour of Rest, giving it neat defensive utility. it's still decent outside of Rain, with TG/Surf/Beam/Psychic being a headache for a good number of defensive cores. it doesn't love every big meta shift(namely Ferro) but it's certainly better than other mons in B- and a lot more comparable to those in B.

to B: unlike the above, it's really not worth running almost ever atm; Mega Gyara almost always takes the spot in the HOs it used to thrive in(while the archetype itself has fallen off quite a bit) and it's more often than not a 'dead' slot on BO; Electrics have been getting better and it obviously struggles vs them, doesn't get past most popular cores nearly reliably enough to warrant the pick really.

speaking of Electrics,
is due for a rise to A-; it's been seeing a ton more usage since Zygarde's ban, both Defog and 3 Attacks sets. Static is an absolute bugger to play against, since preventing U-turns from Torn/Lando and dissuading Mawiles and Kartanas from ever attacking is great when every single one of those Mons is strong & popular atm. it's not new but their combined popularity is.

some other things I'd like but don't feel as strongly about:

to B: always a pain to face, Metronome and Z are both quite nice, fantastic TSpike abuser, good secondary Greninja check, checks really aren't all that varied; far from unbeatable(especially with a weakness to every entry hazard) but it's a good Mon nonetheless and surely fits better in B.

to C+: Rocks + 3 Attacks(EQ/Draco/Fire Blast) is pretty decent, being able to blow Celes/Bulu/Rotom/Lando to fuck while also abusing Heatran(also switches into this quite nicely), Toxapex, Magearna, Ferrothorn and a few more mons to break holes into a vast number of BOs and Balances.

to B-/C+: HO is not nearly as good as it used to be, Tyranitar and Gren are both as great as they've ever been, Rotom is fantastic, Garchomp's a good check...not much(if anything) going for it.

to UR: I don't care for it that much but its niche is completely gone in modern iterations of Rain.

e: also Finchinator change my name on the OP u absolute imbecile it's been like 5 months
 
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Finchinator

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couple stuff I wanted to see happen but forgot about last update

to B: Manaphy's got a solid niche in Rain, being able to get past almost every popular Water resist with relative ease while also being able to forego Psychic if needed(in Rain of course) in favour of Rest, giving it neat defensive utility. it's still decent outside of Rain, with TG/Surf/Beam/Psychic being a headache for a good number of defensive cores. it doesn't love every big meta shift(namely Ferro) but it's certainly better than other mons in B- and a lot more comparable to those in B.

to B: unlike the above, it's really not worth running almost ever atm; Mega Gyara almost always takes the spot in the HOs it used to thrive in(while the archetype itself has fallen off quite a bit) and it's more often than not a 'dead' slot on BO; Electrics have been getting better and it obviously struggles vs them, doesn't get past most popular cores nearly reliably enough to warrant the pick really.

speaking of Electrics,
is due for a rise to A-; it's been seeing a ton more usage since Zygarde's ban, both Defog and 3 Attacks sets. Static is an absolute bugger to play against, since preventing U-turns from Torn/Lando and dissuading Mawiles and Kartanas from ever attacking is great when every single one of those Mons is strong & popular atm. it's not new but their combined popularity is.

some other things I'd like but don't feel as strongly about:

to B: always a pain to face, Metronome and Z are both quite nice, fantastic TSpike abuser, good secondary Greninja check, checks really aren't all that varied; far from unbeatable(especially with a weakness to every entry hazard) but it's a good Mon nonetheless and surely fits better in B.

to C+: Rocks + 3 Attacks(EQ/Draco/Fire Blast) is pretty decent, being able to blow Celes/Bulu/Rotom/Lando to fuck while also abusing Heatran(also switches into this quite nicely), Toxapex, Magearna, Ferrothorn and a few more mons to break holes into a vast number of BOs and Balances.

to B-/C+: HO is not nearly as good as it used to be, Tyranitar and Gren are both as great as they've ever been, Rotom is fantastic, Garchomp's a good check...not much(if anything) going for it.

to UR: I don't care for it that much but its niche is completely gone in modern iterations of Rain.


e: also Finchinator change my name on the OP u absolute imbecile it's been like 5 months

I totally fixed this all by myself and am responsible for the full upkeep of the OP. You're all very welcome, including my fellow useless OU Moderators.
 
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