Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

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Fusion Flare

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Simply put, for covering other threats that Jirachi can't.

It's very slim, but Zard X is probably the biggest reason to use Latias over Jirachi. Latias's typing can also be useful in a pinch, and then it's a bit better at checking Ash-Gren post transformation. I'm okay with a drop to C-, but not really agreeing on unranking.

Also Dragon moves are still used on a rare occasion. Mega Chomp is a big example that was missed in your post, which has Draco to overcome physically defensive Pokemon such as Gliscor.
im sorry but this post makes zero sense to me. scarf latias is bad? yes, it is. but this is no argument lmao. you spend 2/3 of the post saying what pokemon use and dont use dragon stab, but cant u just like uh, not run dragon stab on it if that's your argument? and anyway latias isn't a breaker like all of these, it wants draco so it can touch what it needs to revenge kill, so it's already a pretty different situation (and even then like cm said some mons use dragon stab like mchomp and mlatios). on another note, you fail to adress one of the most important traits of scarf latias which is ground immunity and that's honestly very nice in the part you compare to scarf jirachi. you also seem to overlook the fact that mega latias outspeeds scarf latias and mega swampert in rain (even jolly) and can touch mega chairzard x and maybe get some chip on volcarona unlike jirachi which needs a speed tie healing wish to act as a "check", making it a better revenge killer. i'm not saying this pokémon is good however, but you also fail to capture what makes it a lot worse when compared to jirachi, which again makes this post feel very uninformed. lack of defensive utility, that jirachi brings plenty of to the table, and also lack of a pivoting makes it complete tyranitar bait and a momentum sack, which is part of the reason that makes scarf latios and scarf keldeo terrible (not the ttar bait part). all in all, i think scarf latias still has enough of a niche to be ranked, but c- rank could be reasonable.

e: tfw colonel m snipes you
*Scarf Lati

but both of you are right. lati should drop to C-, but not cuz of my reasons.
 
174377
Tapu Fini A >>> A+


Tapu Fini has genuinely taken the tier by storm. After a highly successful SPL, it continues to shine in OUPL with a usage rate akin to other A+ mons and a very high win percentage. Teams are employing it very often right now because its role compression is proving to be incredibly useful. In addition to blanket checking a good portion of the current meta, it manages to:
  • completely shut down Heatran, Ash-Gren and Toxapex and their ways to make progress in a battle
  • dish out good amounts of chip damage
  • elevate the hazard game to your favour (it beats every relevant hazard setter except Gunk Shot Protean Gren and Ferrothorn)
  • provide Misty Terrain
  • somewhat stallbreak
For the aforementioned reasons, it is becoming increasingly easy to fit Fini into a team. It doesn’t have the longevity of mons like Ferro, Pex or Torn-T, but the sheer support Tapu Fini provides is definitely worthy of A+.
 
View attachment 174377 Tapu Fini A >>> A+

Tapu Fini has genuinely taken the tier by storm. After a highly successful SPL, it continues to shine in OUPL with a usage rate akin to other A+ mons and a very high win percentage. Teams are employing it very often right now because its role compression is proving to be incredibly useful. In addition to blanket checking a good portion of the current meta, it manages to:
  • completely shut down Heatran, Ash-Gren and Toxapex and their ways to make progress in a battle
  • dish out good amounts of chip damage
  • elevate the hazard game to your favour (it beats every relevant hazard setter except Gunk Shot Protean Gren and Ferrothorn)
  • provide Misty Terrain
  • somewhat stallbreak
For the aforementioned reasons, it is becoming increasingly easy to fit Fini into a team. It doesn’t have the longevity of mons like Ferro, Pex or Torn-T, but the sheer support Tapu Fini provides is definitely worthy of A+.
Gonna be a hard no for me. Everything you said about tapu fini is true, but it just isn’t on the same level of potency as kartana, Mawile, chomp etc. A is a respectable spot, if it had a better form of recovery it’d be more plausible but one good knock is a setback it can’t ignore. L
 

Ruft

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View attachment 174377 Tapu Fini A >>> A+

Tapu Fini has genuinely taken the tier by storm. After a highly successful SPL, it continues to shine in OUPL with a usage rate akin to other A+ mons and a very high win percentage. Teams are employing it very often right now because its role compression is proving to be incredibly useful. In addition to blanket checking a good portion of the current meta, it manages to:
  • completely shut down Heatran, Ash-Gren and Toxapex and their ways to make progress in a battle
  • dish out good amounts of chip damage
  • elevate the hazard game to your favour (it beats every relevant hazard setter except Gunk Shot Protean Gren and Ferrothorn)
  • provide Misty Terrain
  • somewhat stallbreak
For the aforementioned reasons, it is becoming increasingly easy to fit Fini into a team. It doesn’t have the longevity of mons like Ferro, Pex or Torn-T, but the sheer support Tapu Fini provides is definitely worthy of A+.
The fact that Tapu Fini is a passive Pokémon without any reliable recovery (no Recover, Wish, Leech Seed, Regenerator, etc.) makes it incredibly hard to justify ranking it A+ to me. If you look at this rank, everything there is less passive and/or has a form of recovery that is more reliable than just holding Leftovers. It can get worn down throughout the match too easily, especially if its Leftovers get knocked off.

A prime example of this is the final SPL X game, where Blunder's Tapu Fini gets worn down throughout the match, allowing Lax's Greninja, the thing it's supposed to check, to take it down and win the game: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-432868
 
The fact that Tapu Fini is a passive Pokémon without any reliable recovery (no Recover, Wish, Leech Seed, Regenerator, etc.) makes it incredibly hard to justify ranking it A+ to me. If you look at this rank, everything there is less passive and/or has a form of recovery that is more reliable than just holding Leftovers. It can get worn down throughout the match too easily, especially if its Leftovers get knocked off.

A prime example of this is the final SPL X game, where Blunder's Tapu Fini gets worn down throughout the match, allowing Lax's Greninja, the thing it's supposed to check, to take it down and win the game: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-432868
I disagree on Tapu Fini being passive: it is far from. Nature's Madness alone does huge chunks of damage, Scald (or Brine if you're trying to be fancy)/Moonblast hits hard enough for it do its job properly and Taunt prevents (excessive) setup.
Spd Tran is S ranked and only holds leftovers, Defensive Lando-T (A+) has no recovery, Vest Mage (A+) has no recovery, Tank Chomp has no recovery. And yes, their offensive stats are high enough to the point where they aren't passive but they get worn down easily too and as I already noted, I don't find Fini to be passive. Also, you wouldn't want to stay in on a Knock Off from anything anyway. Kartana, Mawile, Tangrowth, Zam and Torn-T scare it out regardless. The only mon I can realistically see knocking off its Leftovers is Mega Scizor and that frankly doesn't justify anything.
 

sister

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I disagree on Tapu Fini being passive: it is far from. Nature's Madness alone does huge chunks of damage, Scald (or Brine if you're trying to be fancy)/Moonblast hits hard enough for it do its job properly and Taunt prevents (excessive) setup.
Spd Tran is S ranked and only holds leftovers, Defensive Lando-T (A+) has no recovery, Vest Mage (A+) has no recovery, Tank Chomp has no recovery. And yes, their offensive stats are high enough to the point where they aren't passive but they get worn down easily too and as I already noted, I don't find Fini to be passive. Also, you wouldn't want to stay in on a Knock Off from anything anyway. Kartana, Mawile, Tangrowth, Zam and Torn-T scare it out regardless. The only mon I can realistically see knocking off its Leftovers is Mega Scizor and that frankly doesn't justify anything.
Correct me if I'm wrong but all those examples you mentioned have other sets other than their bulkier builds. Owing to their A+ ranking is their versatility and ability to surprise their opponent with a variety of other options, mitigating the problem of no recovery somewhat by offering other advantages.

Tapu Fini on the other hand has only one set which is greatly hampered by its lack of recovery, where as Lando can do scarf, Magearna has Shift gear etc. To say these mons are A+ for their bulkier sets is wrong.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but all those examples you mentioned have other sets other than their bulkier builds. Owing to their A+ ranking is their versatility and ability to surprise their opponent with a variety of other options, mitigating the problem of no recovery somewhat by offering other advantages.

Tapu Fini on the other hand has only one set which is greatly hampered by its lack of recovery, where as Lando can do scarf, Magearna has Shift gear etc. To say these mons are A+ for their bulkier sets is wrong.
I have no strong opinion on Fini but he is using their individual set rankings rather than the actual pokemon ratings so I think he has a valid point. AFAIK, versatility and surprise is not a significant part of the set viability rankings
 
Anyone else feel Lopunny should drop? The drop in Ghost usage means it's ability is almost useless making it hard to justify using up your mega slot on it.

Besides its speed stat, all it's other stats are pretty average including its attack and it doesn't help that it's preferred move set hits most pokes in the tier for neutral damage when coming from such an average attack stat and only a few unreliable ways to boost it.
 

TPP

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Anyone else feel Lopunny should drop? The drop in Ghost usage means it's ability is almost useless making it hard to justify using up your mega slot on it.

Besides its speed stat, all it's other stats are pretty average including its attack and it doesn't help that it's preferred move set hits most pokes in the tier for neutral damage when coming from such an average attack stat and only a few unreliable ways to boost it.
Hi, welcome to Smogon! I recommend you read the Mega Lopunny analysis before attempting to make a post on its viability to get a better understanding as to how it functions. The analysis may be a bit old, but seriously do give it a read, check out some replays if possible, really from anywhere, even Gen 6 replays. It had some usage in OLT and you can read some posts like this one by Ojama where he discusses his Lopunny team that he used to qualify for OLT playoffs.

On a more serious note, I highly recommend you learn how this thread works.

The drop in Ghost usage means it's ability is almost useless
The ability is one part of the mon. Zygarde's ability was completely useless but that didn't mean it wasn't ban worthy. It was essentially everything else - movepool (namely Thousand Arrows), solid bulk, versatility and much more that made it a huge threat. Every mon is made up of different factors, and you need to see how all of those factors work together in practice to understand how a mon works. Viability Ranks will change depending on the state of the metagame and if the changes are favorable to a mon, then it'll rise, and if they are unfavorable, it will drop. Obviously it's not like some things suddenly become unviable, maybe more difficult to use, but still usable to an extent. Again, we will only drop them based on shifts in the metagame and not for stating the obvious such as its typing or stats. Please don't angry react this and think you're off the hook. Read the post, learn from your mistake and post again once you feel like you've learned how to properly post in this thread. If you need help or have questions, you're free to ask any of the mods or in the SQSA thread.

Thanks and have a nice day.
 
Hi, welcome to Smogon! I recommend you read the Mega Lopunny analysis before attempting to make a post on its viability to get a better understanding as to how it functions. The analysis may be a bit old, but seriously do give it a read, check out some replays if possible, really from anywhere, even Gen 6 replays. It had some usage in OLT and you can read some posts like this one by Ojama where he discusses his Lopunny team that he used to qualify for OLT playoffs.

On a more serious note, I highly recommend you learn how this thread works.


The ability is one part of the mon. Zygarde's ability was completely useless but that didn't mean it wasn't ban worthy. It was essentially everything else - movepool (namely Thousand Arrows), solid bulk, versatility and much more that made it a huge threat. Every mon is made up of different factors, and you need to see how all of those factors work together in practice to understand how a mon works. Viability Ranks will change depending on the state of the metagame and if the changes are favorable to a mon, then it'll rise, and if they are unfavorable, it will drop. Obviously it's not like some things suddenly become unviable, maybe more difficult to use, but still usable to an extent. Again, we will only drop them based on shifts in the metagame and not for stating the obvious such as its typing or stats. Please don't angry react this and think you're off the hook. Read the post, learn from your mistake and post again once you feel like you've learned how to properly post in this thread. If you need help or have questions, you're free to ask any of the mods or in the SQSA thread.

Thanks and have a nice day.
You're really gonna compare a base 480 mega Poke with a currently somewhat useful ability to a 600 base legendary (which can at least hold an item btw to make up for a lack of ability) that has arguably the best attack move in the game?

As far as megas go, I agree that there are more factors that come in to play besides ability, but you can't look at the ban list and say that a mega mon's ability doesn't play a part in whether they're great or not
 
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You're really gonna compare a base 480 mega Poke with a currently somewhat useful ability to a 600 base legendary (which can at least hold an item btw to make up for a lack of ability) that has arguably the best attack move in the game?
This is about to get super derailed but whatever.

The only point of comparison is that one has an ability that literally doesn't do anything and was still strong enough to get suspected and for folks to consider it broken. Mega Lopunny's value doesn't come exclusively from its ability, though it allows it to actually hit Mega Sableye which would otherwise wall it completely. Its value comes from its insane Speed tier, access to consistent priority that lets it give Offense even more of a headache, and two really consistent and really strong STABs that will OHKO everything but hard-resists that are threatened considerably by Ice Punch. They fulfill completely different roles.

If Mega Lopunny were to drop - and I'm indifferent about it either way - it certainly isn't gonna drop for the reasons you listed.
 

TPP

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You're really gonna compare a base 480 mega Poke with a currently somewhat useful ability to a 600 base legendary (which can at least hold an item btw to make up for a lack of ability) that has arguably the best attack move in the game?
174905

Not that it matters, but it's 580, not 480 :pikuh:

I don't want to derail this thread so I'll say it one last time. Read the analysis and the posts above before posting again. Stating the obvious, like typing, stats and moves won't change a mon's viability because those are things we already know. What matters most is how well it performs in the current metagame, which is constantly changing.
 
If someone already made this nom, then count it as a shadow.



Kommo-o C --> C+/B-

I know we raised it last shift, and that this is a MASSIVE jump, but I feel B- is more representative of how viable Kommo-o is. Kommo-o has seen a pretty solid amount of usage recently, whether it be a couple appearences in OUPL, random tournaments throughout OU, or just on ladder. This isn't because it looks cool, however. Obviously, usage isn't DIRECTLY correlated with viability, but they are somewhat connected in the sense that if something gets better, more people are probably going to use it.

My reasons for bumping this up are similar to it's reasoning ,At least if I remember correctly, and correct me if I'm wrong, for being bumped up last shift: It's Stealth Rock+Kommonium Z set. Being able to get rocks up after switching in on things like Heatran, Ash Greninja, or a Knock Off from something like Tangrowth, Kommo-o can then fire off a 185-base power STAB attack that boosts all of it's stats by one stage, which the damage alone is enough to cripple the likes of Tornadus-Therian, Zapdos, Landorus-Therian, or any other non-Tapu defogger. Even then, you can just Poison Jab the fairies with enough chip.

Now don't get me wrong, Kommo-o is nice and all, but I highly recommend not bumping this up any further until things get better for it as a while, i.e. Tapu Fini, Magearna, and other things that just slap it become a little less prevalent and overall "good" in the metagame. Kommo-o's speed tier is okay for outspeeding slower, fat things, but struggles to keep up with the majority of the metagame, being outrun by pretty much anything faster then Gliscor, even with the +1 boost, it is still outran by Scarf Landorus Therian and Scarf Tapu Lele, not strong enough to really break Toxapex, even with your boosts, basically giving them a free Haze into Toxic Spikes, as well as having no reliable recovery to even consistently check Heatran and Ash Greninja, so a well timed Toxic from Heatran will put it in a bad spot.

Overall, Kommo-o is better sat among things like Mega Garchomp and Slowbro, then down with Ditto and Mimikyu of all things. If the jump is too far for right now, then at least move it to C+.
 
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Image result for pinsir sprite gif


Mega Pinsir B- ----> C+ (Or even C)

Zapdos, Celesteela and Rotom-W being high on usage stats certainly hurt Pinsir, it also relies heavily on Rocks being gone before being able to setup. Lastly, it's horrible defensive typing leaves it vulnerable to attacks such as Koko's TBolt and Torn's Hurricane
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
Image result for pinsir sprite gif


Mega Pinsir B- ----> C+ (Or even C)

Zapdos, Celesteela and Rotom-W being high on usage stats certainly hurt Pinsir, it also relies heavily on Rocks being gone before being able to setup. Lastly, it's horrible defensive typing leaves it vulnerable to attacks such as Koko's TBolt and Torn's Hurricane
Hello,

I don't think Mega Pinsir should drop even further, it definetly is more threatening than all the stuff in the C rankings as it can still bypass teams, which lack a backbone to defensively check Mega-Pinsir. Also its speed tier is still pretty good and unlike other mons in the C rankings Mega-Pinsir isnt a niche and still better than the stuff in C+ or even C.
 
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Colonel M

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Oh boy.

Replays at 1100 (and one of them that I so happened to glance at, with Sylveon doing absolutely nothing) doesn't help your argument very much for ranking Sylveon.

I understand that replays were asked, but higher level replays with the Pokemon actually doing something is what we're looking for.

I'm going to suggest that no further nomination for Sylveon to be made until you can show Sylveon doing more higher up in the ladder or through a relevant tournament replay of recent.

Sorry for those who had real responses - not mad at you guys, but to prevent further cluster fucking, I'm going to delete future Sylveon-related posts instead of letting them live.
 
Image result for pinsir sprite gif


Mega Pinsir B- ----> C+ (Or even C)

Zapdos, Celesteela and Rotom-W being high on usage stats certainly hurt Pinsir, it also relies heavily on Rocks being gone before being able to setup. Lastly, it's horrible defensive typing leaves it vulnerable to attacks such as Koko's TBolt and Torn's Hurricane
When mega pinsir was put where it was originally, these were all concerns. But these are reasons why there are teams crafted around M-pinsir to help it with defoggers, heatran, and stuff that can clear the way for M-pinsir to sweep with powerful, unresisted moves like aerialate return, EQ and close combat that can all be boosted with sd/bulk up. M-Pinsir is good where it is.
 
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I'd like to make a nomination that, while it may seem weird to others, I've thought about for a while and really do think should happen.

The main issue that I have with Ferrothorn in the current metagame is that it tends to force really awkward team structures, which are always flawed in one way or another. Ferrothorn itself, is an inherently bad check to Psychic-types that aren't called Mega Latios or Mega Latias, meaning that it often just doesn't provide the utility that a team requires from a specially defensive Steel-type. While this has always been a known flaw, I think that because of the way the metagame is currently headed, this issue is really becoming more apparent and troublesome. Not because Psychic-types are becoming more prominent, but because it's becoming increasingly harder to put Ferrothorn with another Steel-type on the team without the team suffering from it in some way. As a result, Ferrothorn is not as splashable or consistent as any other Pokemon in the A+ rank and I'd like to see it drop.
 

Srn

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I'd like to make a nomination that, while it may seem weird to others, I've thought about for a while and really do think should happen.

The main issue that I have with Ferrothorn in the current metagame is that it tends to force really awkward team structures, which are always flawed in one way or another. Ferrothorn itself, is an inherently bad check to Psychic-types that aren't called Mega Latios or Mega Latias, meaning that it often just doesn't provide the utility that a team requires from a specially defensive Steel-type. While this has always been a known flaw, I think that because of the way the metagame is currently headed, this issue is really becoming more apparent and troublesome. Not because Psychic-types are becoming more prominent, but because it's becoming increasingly harder to put Ferrothorn with another Steel-type on the team without the team suffering from it in some way. As a result, Ferrothorn is not as splashable or consistent as any other Pokemon in the A+ rank and I'd like to see it drop.
I could see ferro dropping, but not for the reasons above.

If the reasoning for a drop is that it is a bad check to psychic-types, I disagree because you can always just tweak your ferrothorn set to ohko mega alakazam with gyro or add chople to eat a focus blast easier. If zam isn't the psychic type we're worried about, then its lele, and ferrothorn is right in the middle of the road of lele checks as far as steel types go. Its in ferro's favor to avoid 3hko from specs psychic/psyshock and ohkos back with gyro, and sets like z-fight still dont break through chople ferro with +1 z-focus blast.

Basically, if you think ferro isn't splashable, which is a highly subjective take on ferro to start with, you oughta consider tweaking your ferro set. My experiences with ferro have been just as good as before, so unless you're more concrete on how exactly team structures suffer when ferro is used, I'm inclined to disagree with that notion altogether.

As far as "providing the utility a team requires from a sdef steel type" I think its hard to knock ferro for this bc most steel types in OU aren't good lele checks either!
Zone gets 2hko'd specs lele, even psyshock will 2hko after rocks
Mega zor gets its BP shut down
Mega mawile gets 2hkod and sucker is shut down
Excadrill is outsped w/out scarf or sand and is 2hkod, even sdef exca is 2hkod by specs psyshock,
Offensive heatran is 2hkod and teams with sdef heatran still need another pivot otherwise sdef tran will get worn down super fast bc it doesn't take down lele immediately
we dont talk about kartana

So what does that leave us with? Magearna, Celesteela, Jirachi are more consistent than ferro at checking lele. Jirachi has its own set of problems, so setting that aside, I can't say ferrothorn is much worse than Celesteela and Magearna (who is already S rank) as it provides its own perks that the other steels dont, like a water resist, spike setter, utility like knock off/t-wave, etc. Celesteela is objectively harder to deal with imo, but does less for a team than ferro does, and gear is less passive and better but its S rank anyway

Most teams need 2 steels anyway and ferro being one of them is fine.
 
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Here's the thing about Ferro - while it does leave awkward holes open on every team, it has several advantages that other possible steel candidates for your team that make it both super unique and useful in ways not mentioned:

1. Iron Barbs: this alone gives it a unique niche is abusing U-Turn from the likes of Tapu Koko in particular. In fact, it could be argued that this niche as Koko check is one of the biggest reasons to put it on your team, as it adequately checks nearly every set that mon runs. M-Zone or Exca also check Koko but come with other considerable defensive drawbacks.

2. Thunder Wave: again, unique and unexpected. Unlike Heatran, Celesteela, Magearna, M-Scizor, and Jirachi (kinda), this mon comes with a utility move that punishes Volca, Zard, Kartana, Bulu, or a number of other generic switch ins with lowered speed and chance for hax to run wild. Other options like Toxic or Knock Off can be effective as well.

3. Spikes: Ferro is one of 2 viable spikers in the tier, and I think it gets overlooked in that regard a lot. There's nothing worse than thinking "Oh, I'll just send in Steela here, what could go wrong, Rocks?" and then getting Spiked on twice. While Defog is a threat, Ferro also has options to damage many foggers, including the ascendent Fini.. speaking of...

4. Fini: Tapu Fini is popular and has trouble deciding whether to run Nature's Madness or some other move. In the case that it doesn't, Ferrothorn is a rare hazard setter who can deter its usual Taunt/Fog tactics.

5. Misc: Rotom-W, Jirachi, Band Bulu, Clefable, M-Diancie, Magearna, Chansey (on offensive teams), and a number of other mons on a wide variety of teams all can fall victim to Ferro's slow chip damage over the course of a match. There's a lot of nuance to this mon that gets overlooked by simply saying "it's not a perfect Lele check therefore it should drop".

Granted, it does come with a lot of baggage as well. I won't cover all the specifics, but it has so many downsides and dependencies that it it can become a net liability - but at the same time, a well-crafted team with Ferrothorn on it is nothing short of punishing. I'm not sure how i feel about the "it requires a certain team or playstyle to be effective" point. I've run BO teams where all I need is a rocker and a Koko check, and Ferro is great in that case. I've used it on super slow teams like "SD Gliscor BO" or "5 walls plus Lando" where it covers lots of bases. I think it's as much a victim of the cores it's commonly plugged into (Gliscor/Reuniclus/Pex or Lando/Pex/Fable etc.) as those builds are dependent on it for their success.

I won't take a yes/no stance on a drop but I'm curious to read the rest of the discussion.
 

MANNAT

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There seems to be a lot of misconceptions about this mon and I'm frankly surprised that people are nomming it down given how good it is right now. Ferro's easily one of the ten best mons in the tier and fulfills a myriad of roles. A lot of people tend to look at ferro as a fat steel type, but that just doesn't make sense given what it checks and the current metagame state. If you really look at what it checks and what Ferro's place in the current metagame, ferro should be looked at as a fat grass that checks the lati twins rather than a spdef steel, and it becomes a lot easier to build with it then.

With regards to the actual post nomming it down, I don't really agree with what Jordy said about how difficult it is to make up for ferro's inability to check Mega Alakazam and Tapu Lele. Mega Scizor is free to run a fuckton of spdef for zam and lele and goes really well with ferro because it knocks off tran's lefties or just lures it in with superpower along w checking kart, who would be a huge issue otherwise. Additionally, AV tar has really picked up in usage a lot as a blanket check to special attackers and it can easily be paired with ferro to patch up the weaknesses to the mons that it fails to check, you just need to ensure that the rest of the team is fast enough to not get bowled over by shit like Medicham.

Spikes ferro absolutely dominates those fat balances running around rn that rely on fini for hazard control because it just gets chip damage on everything with spikes, knocks shit, and is just a general headache for those teams in general because their fogger can't remove against it. The same can be true with gyro/twave ferro against torn offense and this thing is basically deadweight outside of when you're facing sableye stall and even then it can fuck around and do shit sometimes if you can chip sab enough. I genuinely see no reason to move this thing down and think it's perfect right where it is.
 
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