Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

AM · May 24, 2018

Flame from Heaven said:
First, I would like to commend you on the amount of though and effort you put in your post. However, I am going to have to disagree with Togekiss getting ranked.
The main issue is that while Togekiss does break stall, it literally is useless outside of this. It has nearly no defensive utility outside of being a good Landorus-T check, and those aren’t exactly hard to find. It also invites in Pokemon like Tapu Koko and Heatran for free, as its lack of power along with it running mono flying coverage means pretty much any Pokémon that resist Flying can switch into Togekiss. There are plenty of Stallbreakers that have utitly outside of Stall such as Kartana, Tyranitar, Tapu Lele, and Heatran. Why would you use Togekiss over any of these? If you need a Flying-type, then use Tornadus, who can also stallbreak while still having utitly outside of Stall.
Also, in those replays. Pinsir and Tornadus would have done the exact same thing except they would do more outside of stall.

You've clearly never seen a Togekiss one v one a Heatran or Zapdos before.

Felixx · May 25, 2018

Let me add on the Togekiss discussion by suggesting we start a little lower than "UR -> B/B-", instead let's go with "UR -> C/C+", I think that's fair for it. Togekiss' ability to break stall is definitely valuable, but before we talk about that let's see why it got unranked in the first place in the regular Sun and Moon metagame...

Here's an excerpt from the old SM OU VR:

C- ---> UR (This happened after the Arena Trap ban)

"Togekiss' main niche at the beginning of the gen was that it could break stall, but with stall falling off quite a bit and more stallbreakers becoming viable with the Arena Trap ban, Kiss is basically useless. It can't really do much vs offense, can't really break balance, and will still lose to Zapdos stall regardless. Bad Pokemon, should have been unranked earlier." - Gary

Okay, so basically Togekiss faces competition from other stallbreakers, with its main niche being that it couldn't be trapped by Duggy, but with the Arena Trap ban, stallbreakers that could be trapped by Duggy, such as Tapu Lele, Hoopa-U, and Ttar became much more viable, and stall began dying off. Fast forward SPL 9, we see stall getting used in a bunch of different games starting Week 2 (I mean p2 kinda used a stall team Week 1 but it's more of a semi-stall than hard stall). Here are the SPL 9 Replays featuring stall teams:

The winner of the match will be in Bold
Week 1: BTB vs p2 (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-338222) (semi ?) stall succeeds
Week 2: Sabella vs BTB (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-341762) stall succeeds
Week 2: TDK vs Cdumas (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-341002) stall succeeds
Week 2: p2 vs Poek (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-340211) stall succeeds
Week 3: FV vs Gingy (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-344363) stall succeeds through dc, idk if this counts
Week 3: bro fist vs BO (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-344248) stall actually loses here
Week 3: p2 vs ABR (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-342795) stall loses
and then we don't see any stall for Week 4
Week 5: CBB vs Sabella (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-348191) stall loses, the GOAT CBB gets his ass handed to him in a rain match-up
Week 5: BTB vs FV (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-349448) stall wins
Week 5: Lednah vs Lefties (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-348739) stall wins again
Week 6: Snou vs Empo (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-350835) stall wins
Week 6: BO vs FV (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-352081) stall wins
Week 6: Trosko vs Axel (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-351973) stall wins
and no stall for Week 7

So what do these replays show? These replays show ~~stall is AIDS ban chansey~~ that stall is definitely alive again, giving Togekiss a small but valuable niche to certain teams due to it's ability to break past staples to the archetype such as M-Sab, Pex, Unaware Clef and Quag, Glis, and even the ultimate special wall in Chansey. The only problem is that a lot of those stall teams utilized Zapdos/Celesteela, meaning Togekiss was going to need major hax to break through them, but considering that it's a 60% chance each turn, it's definitely possible. I've actually flinched a full hp M-Scizor to death using a Jirachi, which still utilizes a 60% flinch chance, so the only problem is Pressure from Zapdos draining PP, and playing around Steela's Protect turns, but Zapdos can be Pursuit trapped, making things easier, while Steela can be chipped throughout the match. Overall, I think we should give it a chance on the OU VR again.

now give me likes I researched a lot for this post lol

Altervisi · May 25, 2018

Remove S- :

Honestly, I think the S- rank and A+ rank are so similar, its impossible to judge what should raise, drop and stay between them. 4 months ago I think the addition of the sub-rank was justified given just how good Kartana, Toxapex and Heatran were, now these mons don't quite stand head-and-shoulders above Pokemon like Clefable, Ash-Greninja and Zygarde, in fact I think you could argue a raise to S- or drop to A+ for every Pokemon in these ranks except Toxapex, which is only because that already dropped.

While I don't necessarily think things have changed significantly for Kartana and Heatran I think that counterplay to both is a bit more prevalent. Gastrodon rising to OU is obviously a huge problem for Heatran, as well as the meta becoming more Ground-type centric in general, with Garchomp, Gyarados, Hippowdon and even Alolan-Golem all rising as well. I'll only mention SD because Scarf Kartana is not as good, though I'll just say that it has no moves it can be locked into without it easily being trapped, walled or revenge killed by common threats, I'm not going to list every mon that counters Scarf, 'cause every move it can get locked into, there is a long and well-known list of checks, don't @ me saying I didn't give evidence because this is common knowledge. As for SD, great and rising mons like Tornadus, Greninja, Ash-Greninja, Magnezone, and Scarfers are all super useful to RK it, even if it is almost impossible to wall defensively.

I do not think these mons are bad and removing S- will still put them as joint 2nd best Pokemon in the tier, I just think the gap between A+ and S- has closed to a point there is not enough of a difference in viability to warrant separation.

The only thing I will add is that, as much as effective counterplay affects my nom, Pokemon like Clefable and Zygarde becoming stronger certainly informed my thoughts. Also there is no chance in hell Heatran will rise to S, if you honestly think Heatran is on par with Landorus I have no idea what to say,

Heatran has no where near the offensive or defensive presence nor the versatility to fill as many roles as effectively as Landorus. Yes they can both run Scarf, yes they both can go defensive, yes they can both go Z-Attacking, in every case Landorus is better. Heatrans 4x weakness is to one of the best and most common meta-types, whereas Landorus' weakness, Ice-type, is pretty niche and generally only present to counter Lando. Fighting is extremely common right now which favours Lando, both are weak to Water and Landorus' immunity to Ground and Electric is much better than Poison and Fire, which are much less common and effective typings (look at VR for reasonings). I understand their roles are very different but I can't exactly compare Heatran with any other S ranked mon, because there aren't any, so yeah Heatran to S, strongly disagree.

Flame from Heaven said:
It also invites in Pokemon like Tapu Koko and Heatran for free,

Have you tried to hit a Magma Storm through Paralysis and 60% flinch chance?

micahclay said:
I think Azumarill’s most viable set is currently sap sipper.

This is not true and also the set you go on to mention isn't the PerishTrap set Sap Sipper is used on, its niche is Z-Belly Drum which is correctly ranked in C+, being not good, but usable situationally.

robofiend said:
Since this is being debated:

B+ -> B: Disagree

I agree with the disagreement, keep Venusaur B+

QY_CS said:
I would like to nominate Togekiss from UR -> B/B-

B Rank is waaaay too high to rank from UR. Go for C/C- to start with, or people will not take this nom as seriously, which is a shame because I do think Togekiss is underrated and effective. I don't have an opinion on whether it should actually be ranked though.

As for the SRN/Jordy arguement, I'm on SRN's side, Mega's are not that valuable like ORAS and even if they were, Latios LO could easily be run in the place of Mega Lati to free up the mega slot.
Mega-Garchomp is fine in C as an effective wallbreaker that is hard to justify using but not impossible, especially with T-tar and Hippowdon sand support.

I don't think Salamence should be ranked, its not as good as its competition as a Z-Fly DD user or whatever other weird sets are thrown out, just because a mon can do work in the meta doesn't mean it should, which is what viability means, you can throw calcs out showing crazy damage from Minior, it does something, but it shouldn't be ranked because it can sweep a handful of builds.

QY_CS · May 25, 2018

Felixx said:
Let me add on the Togekiss discussion by suggesting we start a little lower than "UR -> B/B-", instead let's go with "UR -> C/C+", I think that's fair for it. Togekiss' ability to break stall is definitely valuable, but before we talk about that let's see why it got unranked in the first place in the regular Sun and Moon metagame...

Here's an excerpt from the old SM OU VR:

C- ---> UR (This happened after the Arena Trap ban)

"Togekiss' main niche at the beginning of the gen was that it could break stall, but with stall falling off quite a bit and more stallbreakers becoming viable with the Arena Trap ban, Kiss is basically useless. It can't really do much vs offense, can't really break balance, and will still lose to Zapdos stall regardless. Bad Pokemon, should have been unranked earlier." - Gary

Okay, so basically Togekiss faces competition from other stallbreakers, with its main niche being that it couldn't be trapped by Duggy, but with the Arena Trap ban, stallbreakers that could be trapped by Duggy, such as Tapu Lele, Hoopa-U, and Ttar became much more viable, and stall became dying off. Fast forward SPL 9, we see stall getting used in a bunch of different games starting Week 2 (I mean p2 kinda used a stall team Week 1 but it's more of a semi-stall than hard stall). Here are the SPL 9 Replays featuring stall teams:

The winner of the match will be in Bold
Week 1: BTB vs p2 (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-338222) (semi ?) stall succeeds
Week 2: Sabella vs BTB (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-341762) stall succeeds
Week 2: TDK vs Cdumas (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-341002) stall succeeds
Week 2: p2 vs Poek (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-340211) stall succeeds
Week 3: FV vs Gingy (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-344363) stall succeeds though dc, idk if this counts
Week 3: bro fist vs BO (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-344248) stall actually loses here
Week 3: p2 vs ABR (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-342795) stall loses
and then we don't see any stall for Week 4
Week 5: CBB vs Sabella (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-348191) stall loses, the GOAT CBB gets his ass handed to him in a rain match-up
Week 5: BTB vs FV (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-349448) stall wins
Week 5: Lednah vs Lefties (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-348739) stall wins again
Week 6: Snou vs Empo (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-350835) stall wins
Week 6: BO vs FV (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-352081) stall wins
Week 6: Trosko vs Axel (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-351973) stall wins
and no stall for Week 7

So what do these replays show? These replays show ~~stall is AIDS ban chansey~~ that stall is definitely alive again, giving Togekiss a small but valuable niche to certain teams due to it's ability to break past staples to the archetype such as M-Sab, Pex, Unaware Clef and Quag, Glis, and even the ultimate special wall in Chansey. The only problem is that a lot of those stall teams utilized Zapdos/Celesteela, meaning Togekiss was going to need major hax to break through them, but considering that it's a 60% chance each turn, it's definitely possible. I've actually flinched a full hp M-Scizor to death using a Jirachi, which still utilizes a 60% flinch chance, so the only problem is Pressure from Zapdos draining PP, and playing around Steela's Protect turns, but Zapdos can be Pursuit trapped, making things easier, while Steela can be chipped throughout the match. Overall, I think we should give it a chance on the OU VR again.

now give me likes I researched a lot for this post lol

Thanks for supporting the Togekiss having a rank claim, I have also clarified in my post to make it not look like a dumb nomination. One thing that I have to say about tho is the performance of Togekiss vs some electric types.

Lets imagine the case where Togekiss uses Nasty Plot while Zapdos switches in, then Togekiss uses Nasty Plot again while Zapdos uses Defog or Discharge.
+4 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 154-182 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers
recovery
From here we can see that if Zapdos decides to use Defog (often meaning switching into SR), its either 2HKO'd or 3HKO'd by Air Slash after that, which considering the flinch makes Zapdos impossible to beat Togekiss at this point.
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 186-222 (49.7 - 59.3%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If Zapdos were to use Discharge, it has a 30% chance to inflict paralysis on Togekiss, otherwise resulting in the above situation but with Togekiss losing some HP. After this Togekiss can utilize Roost and Heal Bell to play around Zapdos and beat it with flinch when recovered to healthy state. This is still in favor of Togekiss in terms of chances.

Lets now look at the case where a pivot Tapu Koko switches into Togekiss using Nasty Plot while taking Sticky Web debuff.
+2 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 118-140 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
We can see that Togekiss can easily kill Tapu Koko given two flinches.
252 SpA Zap Plate Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss in Electric Terrain: 380-450 (86.3 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Even if one of the flinch fails, Zap Plate Tapu Koko cannot OHKO Togekiss most of the time, and with the Shuca Berry set getting more common pivot Tapu Koko completely loses the chance to beat Togekiss under Sticky Webs.

I understand that these are relatively restricted scenarios which often requires sufficient team support, but I just want to point out that Togekiss is certainly not outclassed by other flying types.

This post is also a response to Flame from Heaven , rip me bcoz idk how to quote a part of a post.

Ryomathekillers · May 25, 2018

QY_CS said:
Thanks for supporting the Togekiss having a rank claim, I have also clarified in my post to make it not look like a dumb nomination. One thing that I have to say about tho is the performance of Togekiss vs some electric types.

Lets imagine the case where Togekiss uses Nasty Plot while Zapdos switches in, then Togekiss uses Nasty Plot again while Zapdos uses Defog or Discharge.
+4 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 154-182 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers
recovery
From here we can see that if Zapdos decides to use Defog (often meaning switching into SR), its either 2HKO'd or 3HKO'd by Air Slash after that, which considering the flinch makes Zapdos impossible to beat Togekiss at this point.
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 186-222 (49.7 - 59.3%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If Zapdos were to use Discharge, it has a 30% chance to inflict paralysis on Togekiss, otherwise resulting in the above situation but with Togekiss losing some HP. After this Togekiss can utilize Roost and Heal Bell to play around Zapdos and beat it with flinch when recovered to healthy state. This is still in favor of Togekiss in terms of chances.

Lets now look at the case where a pivot Tapu Koko switches into Togekiss using Nasty Plot while taking Sticky Web debuff.
+2 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 118-140 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
We can see that Togekiss can easily kill Tapu Koko given two flinches.
252 SpA Zap Plate Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss in Electric Terrain: 380-450 (86.3 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Even if one of the flinch fails, Zap Plate Tapu Koko cannot OHKO Togekiss most of the time, and with the Shuca Berry set getting more common pivot Tapu Koko completely loses the chance to beat Togekiss under Sticky Webs.

I understand that these are relatively restricted scenarios which often requires sufficient team support, but I just want to point out that Togekiss is certainly not outclassed by other flying types.

This post is also a response to Flame from Heaven , rip me bcoz idk how to quote a part of a post.

Ah yes because Togekiss outspeeds koko and zapdos, which it doesn't, also how tf do you get to plus 4? that's just stupid, zapdos and koko both beat you in this matchup. I honestly cannot ever see a situation where I would want togekiss as my stall breaker as there are many many more potent stall breakers, such as, heatran,gliscor, even sub cm blace has more use than togekiss. While togekiss might beat some stall teams it still loses to zapdos stall which isn't the best, It's also dead weight in the curent meta against most teams that arn't stall as it gets demolished by many current amazing pokemon such as tran,zapos and koko. You also said that you can use T-wave or flame thrower, over what? You need NP to actually tickle stall, you need Roost so you can heal against stall and you need heal bell so you don't die instantly to stall and you need air flinch for obvious reasons. Togekiss honestly does not look good what so ever and nomming it to B or B- is a pisstake.

Gross Sweep · May 25, 2018

Togekiss is an interesting Pokemon for sure. I liked the effort that went into the nomination, which is why I want to give my 2 cents on the matter. I have a few issues with the nomination, and figure I might as well make a longer than needed VR post opposing the nom.

Firstly I am not the biggest fan of nominating a mon from UR all the way up to B/B-. This far into the generation I feel like a lot of stones have been turned creativity wise, and while I love the initiative of trying something new I feel like this rise is too big for a mon that has really only seen success when ABR used a Firium Z set in a past OST Finals (not very recent). I understand certain circumstances can merit large rises, I just don’t feel Gastro + Clef teams becoming more popular merit one in this case. Especially since the ladder is still filled with Rain and Screens HO, so it's not all Gastro, Clef, Reun, and other fat balance teams for people who don't play tours.

Next I’ll move onto the meat of this nomination, rather than just a philosophy on how much a mon can/can’t rise in one shift. A main issue I have is the matchup Togekiss has vs anything that isn’t stall or fat balance. The second you start facing more offensive teams Togekiss really starts to crumble, especially since you’re not always running Twave (as it didn’t even make your actual set posting). I know you mention offensive mons do not switch into Togekiss all that well but one mon just keeps jumping into my mind: Tapu Koko. Shuca Koko with Roost being as popular as it is really hurts Togekiss as you’re pretty much checked throughout the game as Koko Roosts to offset the lackluster chip you will be accumulating. It’s not just Koko either, if you face 3 attacks Zapdos who outspeeds and runs roost you’re in a similar scenario of not accomplishing a ton with Togekiss (unless you factor in doubling opportunities it can create, which I am choosing not to as every mon would take advantage of that evening things out).

Next we have to talk about the replays. Any nomination of a mon form UR requires replays, so I take them very seriously when judging any nomination of this sort. As I want concrete proof the nomination is valid in the tier, and not just something you thought up on paper and hastily nominated without testing. You mention the 2nd game is the better example of Togekiss exerting pressure and bulking out hits, so that’s the one I will be addressing.

First thoughts on team preview is that you have a webs team that hopefully makes up for the struggles Togekiss has vs offense. I won’t do any sort of nitpicking on your team and call it acceptable for the time being. However, I can’t do the same for your opponent. I see Ferrothorn + Tapu Bulu on the same team, and am just left wondering why he decided to go with a pair of fat grasses (as dual fat grass mons is no bueno). When the game starts my suspicions that this replay is not a good representation of high level play is affirmed early and often. On turn 2 your opponent sets up a spike in the face of the Ribombee, when you’re obviously going to be setting up webs which he’ll be forced to defog as soon as possible. He then proceeds to let his ferrothorn get trapped, and as expected he defogs away your webs and Spike he just set 5 turns earlier. He then basically wastes his Z move, gets rocks when he still needs to try and defog, and finally sacks the Defogger first chance he gets sealing his fate. Honestly the iffy team comp, and suboptimal plays by your opponent really start to discredit the replay. After watching this I’m left thinking this is more a replay of webs overwhelming a beginner who has no idea how to deal with them (who happened to not have a flying resist). The other replay was a ladder game in the 1400s where your opponent has Blacephalon and Kommo-o, so I don’t have the highest hopes for that one either. These replays don’t showcase the mon working in the meta on a high level. Leaving me unimpressed as I watched you play a bad opponent, and simply take advantage of suboptimal plays.

Some Competition:

Next I feel I would be premised to not talk about competition Togekiss has as a breaker in the tier. The first example that comes to mind is Tapu Lele. In my opinion Tapu Lele is a superior option. Firstly Tapu Lele has actual coverage moves in HP Fire and Focus Blast, so it’s not just left being walled vs mons that resist its stab (such as Air Slash vs Roost Koko). Togekiss does have access to Nasty Plot, but Calm Mind on Tapu Lele’s part is no slouch either especially when factoring in Lele is already boosting its psychic stab from the terrain. Tapu Lele also has more set variations than the single option of Togekiss. Lele can run Specs, Z-Psyshock, or Z-Focus Blast and break, while Togekiss is left running the same Nasty Plot set making it easier to predict from the get go. Honestly with Lele in the fold I find it hard to imagine myself ever using a Togekiss unless I am desperate for the ground immunity.

Now if Lele existing as a Pokemon weren’t enough to discourage you from picking Togekiss, as Lele is to main stream there are other options. Another more niche pick is Manaphy. Manaphy can run a pretty cool Stall break set utilizing Tail Glow, Rain Dance, Surf, and Psychic. I consider this set fairly on par with Togekiss in terms of breaking fatter teams. However, this set can take advantage of Z-Rain Dance giving Manaphy’s water moves a boost, and +1 speed making it much more effective vs offensive teams. I feel like Togekiss does somewhat make up for this with reliable recovery in Roost, but in no way does it begin to outclass Manaphy enough to be higher on the VR.

Overall I feel this nom was well meaning, and I enjoyed reading it and breaking it down in this post. While I hopefully have made it clear Togekiss isn’t a B/B- Pokemon. I do think it has potential to make its way onto the VR somewhere around C+/C, as I see it as a slightly worse Manaphy if I was forced to compare it to another mon. While there are other noms I would like to discuss I feel I’ve written enough for the time being, and will leave any more discussion for another day.

EDIT: Also just adding this as another post was made while I was writing mine, but I don't really like the use of factoring in Sticky Webs being up so Koko has to be taking +2 Air Slash. That's to specific of a scenario for me as I don't think you can really discredit Koko since webs may or not be up. If your opponent has solid hazard control or a way to keep them off the field you're in trouble. I honestly think you're starting to teeter off Togekiss as a Pokemon, and are looking at this as solely how does Togekiss perform given your team surrounding it. Nothing wrong with a mon having good support, you just need to realize how much support you're using and that the lack of splashability does hurt the viability of the mon. Take M-Pert for example being one of the best rain abuser in the game, but it's only B+ as it just doesn't work off rain. I hate to break it to you, but Togekiss is no where near the best Webs mon (not that you claimed it was), and thus does not deserve a rank nearly as high as other dominant select archetype picks.

QuagsireBiscuit · May 25, 2018

My two cents.

Kartana --> A+ Borderline on no I see why people want in A+ yet being one the few viable Scarfers that have 100+ and its ability to steam roll a team is still invaluable for team building for some teams. But Checks to it are rising in popularity (i.e Heatran, Volcarona, etc) and being a Kartana can be hard or game winner for a team so It is like a roll of the dice. If it goes wrong it wont do that great if it works it picks up a bunch of kills.

Clefable --> S- Hell Yeah Have fun with this thing because its ability to be a glue for some teams and it works so well with so many thing it might deserve S.

M.Latios --> A Yes Arguably the best mega currently in ou and with its psy spam still going on its lovely reign of annoyence in OU is still lovely

Ske · May 26, 2018

Here are a few nominations

Weavile to B+ > A-

I think Weavile is really solid right now, pursuit trapping mons such as Mega Latios & Potentially even mons such as Tornadus is huge. Also mons tht resist dark such as Clefable & Magearna hate being knocked off, Weavile has great matchup vs Weavile switch in Heatran BO type of teams and i think Weavile rising to A- is reasonable.

Bisharp to C+ >B-
This mon is severely underrated, SD Darkinium-Z Bisharp destroys standard Ferrothorn Toxapex Clefable balances right now. Bisharp also loves recent meta trends such as Rocky Helm Torn or Torn without superpower and running Knock Off, Hurricane U-Turn coverage, Lando locked into defog is playing with fire facing a Bisharp, it isnt a safe switch-in but if it happens and Bisharp gets +4 the game chould be over, also Bisharp also appreciates Tapu Lele not being as common as before due to Jirachi rising.

Zygarde A+ > S-
This mon is borderline broken and Idk why it isn't S- yet, it has a million sets such as Wcar with rest, Weakness Policy, Banded, DD Coil, And much more, This mon is the best set up sweeper in the tier and extremely centrlising, most teams cannot run only 1 check to zygarde and expect not to lose to it. Also DD Coil Zygarde under Veil or Screens IS broken and beats pretty much everything bar like unaware clefable and has a ludicrous match-up vs majority of teams pretty much having a chance of beating most teams without something that is ran specifically just to beat DD Coil Zygarde under this condition.

Mega Pinsir A- > A
I Feel like Mega Pinsir is slept on right now, With celesteela dropping in usage and more pepole running Scarf Defensive Stone Edge Lando for it i feel like Pinsir can destroy a lot of BO teams right now. Facing Zapdos u can easily pair Pinsir with SD Kartana or Banded Tyranitar and weaken Zapdos for Pinsir and Mega Pinsir really appreciates mons like Clefable rising in usage.

Discharged Xurkitree · May 26, 2018

I agree with Zygarde from A+ to S-. It is a very solid mon now, especially with all the sets it can run, and the very few mons who can resist thousand arrows often fall to it's dragon type coverage. My only reservation is the rise of Clefable, which does check Zygarde decently.

I also agree with a Weavile rise, but I think it should only go to A-.

Ryomathekillers · May 26, 2018

I'm just going to give my thoughts on some of the more recent nominations.

Clefable: A+ > S- Agree
This mon is bloody amazing right now, being able to fit on most teams easily bringing rocks and most importantly, wish which is more or less the sole reason non lefties tran is viable. The role compression is the name of the game and clef loves the game.

Weavile to B+ > A Somewhat agree
While Weavile is indeed fantastic rn as it beats most defogers and the Mega Latis are huge, I feel that A is too far of a leap, however I do feel that A- is a good spot for weavile as he can and does put in alot of work in the current meta.

Zygarde A+ > S- Agree
Versatile,powerful,splashable. These are all traits of a S- mon and traits that Zygarde has, It has a set for more or less any situation, Need to beat clef? use WP, Need to check koko always? Use WP, Need to check bulu? Use Sub coil, I could go on and on but I don't see a reason to, it also helps that screens Ho is rather big rn and zygarde bloody loves that. Move this mon up.

Mega Latios A- > A small agree
This mon is fantastic and one of the best megas by far, however I'm not too sure on if it's worthy of being ranked alongside some of the A mons and even then, I believe that some mons in A- such as Zapdos are much better than it. That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to a rise.

Zapdos A- > A Strong agree
I've seen this mentioned but not much and I really believe that it should be mentioned more as Zapdos is just fantastic in the meta, it's by far one of the most reliable defogers (imo the best next to torn), manages to check many many important threats such as kartana and hawlucha, also has a great MU against all the rockers and hazard setters aside from mega ttar which has fallen out of favour. It's easily one of the best mons in the meta and I would like to see it's rank reflect that.

Mew B > B+ Agree
I saw this nom a few pages back and i'm suprised it got little mention, as mew is honestly much much better in the current meta considering it can check zygarde and medicham which are huge rn, it honestly reminds me of a mini clef and since clef is great rn I feel that mew should rise as well, It's also quite a good pick on Screens HO as shown by Blunder in smogtours.

Kartana S- > A+ Disagree
Kart is still a massive threat in the current meta with very few checks to it, nothing has really changed much for kart to make it drop, it's also still one of the best scarfers which is a plus.

Now a couple noms of my own

Gastrodon B+ > A-
I've found that whenever i'm building a team and I get to the part where I need to get a check for ashgren and koko (and tran) around 80% of the time I find myself going Gastrodon, role compression is very very good in this meta for a majority of teams and Gastro does that very well. It's easily one of the best mons in the meta considering it can not only check three of the best mons in the meta, it can also scald burn or toxic incoming threats wanting to use it to their advantage, It's managed to become big enough of a threat that people are running bloom doom on tran just to beat it because otherwise they can't do jack shit to it. I honestly feel that B+ is far to low for Gastrodon and that A- is much much more deserving of Gastrodon.

Volcarona A > A+
I'm honestly suprised that volc has dropped now of all times considering it might be at it's best now due to pex falling out of favour. Z Bug Buzz is still very very threatening and now that pex has fallen out of favour HP ground is much much more usable due to heatran being very big. Clef being big rn is also very nice for Rona, Rona is just loving and loving recent meta trends and I think that it should go back to A+.

Mike81401 · May 26, 2018

Zygarde A+ > S- Definitely Agree

This thing has so many sets it's ridiculous. Double Dance, CB, Dragonium, Steelium, SubDD, WP, the list goes on. Plus Zygarde almost always has a set to overwhelm its standard counters. Neither of Clefable or Tapu Bulu can take Steelium, Mega Scizor does not like Dual Dance or SubCoil, Mega Diancie can't switch in on any set unless Zygarde is locked into Dragon type moves (if Zygarde's set up some DDs, Diancie is screwed) Ferrothorn doesn't like Sub DD, etc.

TL;DR Raise Zygarde ASAP

Divine Retribution · May 26, 2018

Nominating S- to the shadow realm. I've said it before, I said it at the very beginning, and I will always say it as long as this subrank exists, S- was a bad idea and it's completely and utterly pointless. Neither of the Pokemon in S- nor any of the pokemon who have been nominated to rise to S- (which is basically the entirety of A+ at this point) are so much better than the rest of A+ that they deserve their own subrank. Yes, they are all metagame-defining threats. This has always been the case for A+. That being said, none of them are so meta shaping that the metagame would be radically different if not for their presence, unlike Lando-T. The council seems to acknowledge this. In fact, this is the reason why S- was created in the first place, to house Pokemon that are seen as meta defining but not quite on the same level as Lando-T.

My primary issue is, how is this any different to what A+ was before S- was created? A+ has always contained Pokemon with great influence over the metagame, in fact literally everything that has ever been A+ has had some major impact on the metagame. The Pokemon in S- are not noticeably better or more meta-defining than the ones in A+, and this is evidenced by the fact that you can make a strong argument for literally any Pokemon in A+ to move up to S-. The problem isn't that Zygarde, Toxapex, Clefable, Koko, etc. are better than the rest of A+, the problem is that Kartana and Heatran aren't, at least not to the point where they deserve their own subrank.

I believe creating S- in the first place creates an unnecessary distinction between Pokemon who aren't different enough to warrant a distinction in rank in the first place. Its entire purpose seems to be to distinguish metagame defining threats while still keeping Lando's status as king of the metagame and miles better than anything else intact. The problem is, A+ already does that. S- seems completely unnecessary and redundant to me.

A few other nominations I'd like to comment since I dragged myself out of hibernation anyways (pls dont infract me daddy Finch (Pussy Bitch) inator).

Volcarona A to A+: Support

And so the wheel keeps turning. I feel like we've been here at least a dozen times before. Volcarona seems to be caught in this endless loop of being an incredibly dangerous threat, easily earning itself a spot in A+, then people completely overprepare for it and it becomes borderline deadweight in many matchups, then it drops, then people stop preparing for it so much, repeat ad nauseam. I definitely believe we're at the top part of that cycle at the moment as many teams are rather Volcarona weak, but we all know that won't last long. Volcarona is simply cursed to never remain A+ for long.

Zapdos A- to A: Support

Okay, I'll admit I didn't even realize this guy was A-. I was pretty sure he was in A, and that's exactly where I think he belongs. Being one of the few Defoggers that can threaten Defiant users is nice, and having fantastic Electric/Fire/Ice coverage means he can apply a lot of pressure to nearly any team even if he isn't packing Defog. Add that to the fact that he checks some of the most dangerous Pokemon in the metagame, such as Kartana, Hawlucha, and Mega Pinsir, and I'm not sure why this thing was ever A- to begin with. Kartana usage is as high as it's ever been, same for Hawlucha.

Gastrodon B+ to A: No support (kind of)

I don't really care too much about this one, but I'm not convinced Gastrodon deserves a higher rank than it currently sits at. It does offer pretty good role compression, being able to check Heatran, Koko, and Ash Gren, but Heatran often carries Toxic or Bloom Doom, Ash Gren has a chance to 2HKO with Dark Pulse after rocks or chip from just about anything (and you lose anyways if it gets a flinch), and I guess you stop Koko from clicking Thunderbolt mindlessly but you can't really discourage it from clicking U-Turn and pivotting out to Ferrothorn or Kartana or any of the numerous things Koko is usually paired with that can force Gastrodon out. In a pinch, Hawlucha can even use you as set-up bait, although it admittedly fears Scald burns and doesn't appreciate Toxic. Also lacking Rocks is a bitch, but I guess you can't have everything.

Mellow · May 26, 2018

Divine Retribution said:
Nominating S- to the shadow realm. I've said it before, I said it at the very beginning, and I will always say it as long as this subrank exists, S- was a bad idea and it's completely and utterly pointless. Neither of the Pokemon in S- nor any of the pokemon who have been nominated to rise to S- (which is basically the entirety of A+ at this point) are so much better than the rest of A+ that they deserve their own subrank. Yes, they are all metagame-defining threats. This has always been the case for A+. That being said, none of them are so meta shaping that the metagame would be radically different if not for their presence, unlike Lando-T. The council seems to acknowledge this. In fact, this is the reason why S- was created in the first place, to house Pokemon that are seen as meta defining but not quite on the same level as Lando-T.

My primary issue is, how is this any different to what A+ was before S- was created? A+ has always contained Pokemon with great influence over the metagame, in fact literally everything that has ever been A+ has had some major impact on the metagame. The Pokemon in S- are not noticeably better or more meta-defining than the ones in A+, and this is evidenced by the fact that you can make a strong argument for literally any Pokemon in A+ to move up to S-. The problem isn't that Zygarde, Toxapex, Clefable, Koko, etc. are better than the rest of A+, the problem is that Kartana and Heatran aren't, at least not to the point where they deserve their own subrank.

I believe creating S- in the first place creates an unnecessary distinction between Pokemon who aren't different enough to warrant a distinction in rank in the first place. Its entire purpose seems to be to distinguish metagame defining threats while still keeping Lando's status as king of the metagame and miles better than anything else intact. The problem is, A+ already does that. S- seems completely unnecessary and redundant to me.

A few other nominations I'd like to comment since I dragged myself out of hibernation anyways (pls dont infract me daddy Finch (Pussy Bitch) inator).

Volcarona A to A+: Support

And so the wheel keeps turning. I feel like we've been here at least a dozen times before. Volcarona seems to be caught in this endless loop of being an incredibly dangerous threat, easily earning itself a spot in A+, then people completely overprepare for it and it becomes borderline deadweight in many matchups, then it drops, then people stop preparing for it so much, repeat ad nauseam. I definitely believe we're at the top part of that cycle at the moment as many teams are rather Volcarona weak, but we all know that won't last long. Volcarona is simply cursed to never remain A+ for long.

Zapdos A- to A: Support

Okay, I'll admit I didn't even realize this guy was A-. I was pretty sure he was in A, and that's exactly where I think he belongs. Being one of the few Defoggers that can threaten Defiant users is nice, and having fantastic Electric/Fire/Ice coverage means he can apply a lot of pressure to nearly any team even if he isn't packing Defog. Add that to the fact that he checks some of the most dangerous Pokemon in the metagame, such as Kartana, Hawlucha, and Mega Pinsir, and I'm not sure why this thing was ever A- to begin with. Kartana usage is as high as it's ever been, same for Hawlucha.

Gastrodon B+ to A: No support (kind of)

I don't really care too much about this one, but I'm not convinced Gastrodon deserves a higher rank than it currently sits at. It does offer pretty good role compression, being able to check Heatran, Koko, and Ash Gren, but Heatran often carries Toxic or Bloom Doom, Ash Gren has a chance to 2HKO with Dark Pulse after rocks or chip from just about anything (and you lose anyways if it gets a flinch), and I guess you stop Koko from clicking Thunderbolt mindlessly but you can't really discourage it from clicking U-Turn and pivotting out to Ferrothorn or Kartana or any of the numerous things Koko is usually paired with that can force Gastrodon out. In a pinch, Hawlucha can even use you as set-up bait, although it admittedly fears Scald burns and doesn't appreciate Toxic. Also lacking Rocks is a bitch, but I guess you can't have everything.

I don't feel like you're appreciating the role compression Gastrodon provides enough. I'm sure we can both agree that building in the current meta is super restricted, which is why Gastrodon is seen on so many balances rn. While Heatran can Toxic it, it still checks it well, it's only in really long drawn out games where it loses to ToxicTran 1v1. Also, Bloom is super rare (4% usage) so while it does fuck Gastro, you're really unlikely to face it. You say AshGren 2hkos w Pulse sometimes after a bit of chip but if you play your Gastro properly then it's nigh impossible for them to transform. And barely any Koko sets even run U-Turn currently so that's not much of an issue. I would support Gastrodon to A-, but I think A is a bit far.

robofiend · May 27, 2018

Altervisi said:
Remove S- :

I do not think these mons are bad and removing S- will still put them as joint 2nd best Pokemon in the tier, I just think the gap between A+ and S- has closed to a point there is not enough of a difference in viability to warrant separation.

[/Hide]

I agreed with this sentiment a few pages ago too, others have said it, and I still agree.

Gastrodon B+ > A- : Agree
Yeah, this thing's good. Send it in on pretty much any Koko and play somewhat carefully around Gren, otherwise enjoy the fact that this mon has a lot of chances to come in during a normal match. It's the tier's only reasonably Koko/Gren/Zapdos/Tran/Magnezone switch in outside of Chansey, and its resistance to 2 good offensive types is cool. Scald is a cancerous ass move and Gastro can use it to ruin KokoLucha, Landorus-T, and Bulu defense, EQ is great for blasting mons that Pex and Fini can't like Magearna, Heatran, and Magnezone. I also think its access to Clear Smog is huge - you can use it on Lucha to keep it from boosting while you heal up, you can use it on CM Clefable or other cheese Cosmic Power mons with the same strat, it has some utility to content with EQ for a spot if you hate losing to memes.

Volcarona A to A+: Disagree
It literally just dropped because it's bad, I say keep it there for now. I can't see how it stands on the same ground as Ash-Gren, Koko, Clefable and Zygarde - it's too one sided, too frail, too needy to be A+ right now.

ayman x · May 27, 2018

A+ -> S- Agree

Clefable is arguably a top 3 - if not the best - SR user in the meta at the moment. It is not hard for Clef to keep hazards up vs common defoggers like Zapdos and Tornadus-T in the long run, and it the hazard war is often skewed in its favor. CM is always a threat against offense. Wish is a godsend to its partners, and has made Heatran more confident in running z-moves, giving balance an advantage vs stall, as not only do rocks stay up, but tran is able to put in work without having to worry about conserving HP. It is very hard to kill and blanket checks physical attackers like Medicham, Zygarde, Scarf Lando, making it a very solid pivot. I regret voting ban on Metagross bc this thing is super annoying...

B+ -> A- Agree

Gastro is the new toy in OU balance as it pivots into a decent list of the tier's scariest special breakers including Heatran, Greninja, Koko, Zapdos, Magearna, Tornadus-T, Mega Latios and Keldeo, and attempts to outlast them. However, I still feel Gastrodon has a few flaws that will keep it from being A material, namely its passiveness, offering hazards to Clefable and Ferrothorn, and proneness to getting haxed and toxic'd. The spikes weakness does not help either as it can tend to get worn down with all that it's attempting to check. Small note but I predict Bloom Doom Tran to rise again bc of this thing

A- -> A Agree

I've always been under the impression that Zapdos was A. It does what it always has since ORAS. A good pivot into flying types, Lando, Kartana, Hawlucha, Scizor and Gliscor (I'll get into this later) and its role as a defogger. It's also somewhat splashable - fits in on teams from bulky offense to hard stall.

B+ -> A- Somewhat Agree

A big nuisance as it knocks off its checks, making life easier for its teammates. e.g. Zygarde appreciates Clef's lefties gone. The speed tier + pursuit is very nice to threaten and trap mega latis, medicham, torn, etc. Priority is also much appreciated for mono arrows zygarde, scarf lando and weakened faster threats. Only problem I have with it is that it has 0 defensive utility and this is a bigger deal in USM than it seems due to the huge constraints in teambuilding; the best offensive mons in this tier have some sort of defensive utility or compensate for it by hitting very, very hard but Weavile just does not hit as hard as it used to in ORAS.

Now to make my own nominations:

A -> A-

Hawlucha is just adequately prepared for and all good teams have counterplay for it. Clef, fat Roost Koko and Zapdos are everywhere usually paired along with priority so it's not as good as it was around February-ish and is seen less often in tour play.

A- -> A

Gliscor is very good on hazard stacking balance teams, especially with pursuit support. SD Gliscor is a very big threat in the metagame as it can set up easily on passive mons like Clef, and once it's at +2, faster threats often won't want to come in on it in fear of getting bopped, paving a way for itself or teammates. It has its defensive merits as well as an alright Heatran switch-in and ground immune, as well as being fairly hard to take down due to its passive recovery. It's forced the lati twins to consider ice beam to OHKO it before it gets out of hand. Gliscor is also very versatile as it gets defog, taunt, SR and knock off, making it a good fit for both balance and stall archetypes.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-379352 - replay of bro fist turning a game around with his fast SD gliscor

Felixx · May 27, 2018

Squidy822 said:
4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 330-390 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 48 SpD Tangrowth: 704-830 (174.6 - 205.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery

These calcs are Z-Ice Beam. Kyurem-B utilizes Z-Freeze Shock, a much more powerful and terrifying nuke that is extremely hard to switch into.

Anyways, I'm disagreeing with a Tangrowth rise from B+ to A-. Kyurem-B and Lele dropping give it some breathing room, but it has a lot of flaws I'd like to talk about. I would also like to inform you that while Phys Def Tangrowth is viable, it fits almost exclusive on stall builds, not because it's bad, but moreso that it's hard to fit on teams due to having competition from other Grasses, and stacking Grass-types is a big no-no, with Kart being the one exception. Speaking of competition, that's Tangrowth's main problem, Tapu Bulu is the best comparison to it, and it has more offensive presence preventing free hazards from Clef and Pex, and set-up from Reuni, it's also a much better Ash-Gren check due to resisting Dark Pulse, Grassy Terrain is a boon to some teams, letting mons like Kart, Bloom Doom Tran, M-Mawile, and Ttar be great partners, either boosting their attacks for the first 2, or reducing EQ damage for the last 2. Finally, you say that you see Tangrowth more than the other B+ mons, but usage does not equal viability, Garchomp gets more usage than Volc, but it's pretty obvious Volc is better right?

Meliodafu7 · May 28, 2018

I would like give my 50 cents to this discussion about some noms

Gastrodon B+ to A- : Agree
This mon offers a shit ton of role compression, checking top threats in the current metagame. Alongside Clefable, I think this mon is the face of fat balance right now and A- reflects its current niche and viability.

Clefable A+ to S- : Agree
The best rocker in the tier, and fat builds loves its Wish support, as it let you run shit like Firum Z Heatran and still provides huge role compression. Checking the so fucking common Zygarde is great as always. Being balance a really good playstyle, the pink Queen of ORAS is looking to claim back her trone, as it defines the playstyle alongside other shit like Gastro/Pex.

Weavile B+ to A- : Agree
With the influx of AV Bulu, M-Lati@s, Reuniclus, Gastrodon and Tornadus-T, and the decline of Scarf Keldeo, Weavile is really solid right now. Being able to trap or deal with the listed mon easily, gives it a solid niche in a number of builds, especially those weak to CM M-Latias or Reuniclus. Switch ins like Clef/Fini/Mag hates being knocked off, and it is hard to switch into its moves if you aren't running a shit like M-Scizor. Solid mon at the moment.

Hawlucha A to A- : Agree
The overpreparation in the teambuilding to deal with this mon is insane, and many teams carry at least 2 answers to it, making a sweep really hard to get. The current meta devoloped to deal with this mon, and I think it should drop.

Zapdos A- to A : Agree
The number of threatening shit this mon deal is huge, and its defensive value is really apreciated by stall and balanced builds alike. However, the raise of Weavile hurts this mon a bit, but still solid A material. Nothing to add here, since other members did it greatly.

Here, I'd like to make a nom of my own

Mega-Latias A- to A
Since balance is the name of the metagame, M-Latias fits the bill so well. Outside of its classic CM Stored Power set; which is really threatening if you lack a Toxic User or Tyranitar, I feel its Roost + 3 attacks set is great right now, and deserve the rise. It can be tailored to your team to deal with specifics threats. Metagames trends like AV Bulu lacking Megahorn, M-Latios lacking Draco Meteor, SD Kartana and Offensive variants of Heatran lacking Toxic, can be deal with M-Latias and its expansive movepool. Also, it shares great sinergy with a lot of balance staples such as Clefable, Ferrothorn/Celesteela, Gastrodon and Heatran, making it a great pick in this teams.

That's all! Continue with the great discussion

.

hmsa2012 · May 28, 2018

Clefable: A+ to S-

I can agree with the Clefable wave right now in this point of the metagame. Clefable has been an amazing utility mon for a good period of time. There could be possible counterarguments saying that Clefable is somewhat predictable based on its moveset, but I think the pink blob deserves the recognition has being one of the best mons right now in OU. A Stealth Rocker that can heal itself up is pretty valuable for many teams, but being immune to non-direct damage with Magic Guard? Jesus. The Calm Mind set can allow Clefable to become a nuisance and pose as a possible offensive threat if the setup is there. There's also the rise of Wish+Softboiled set which makes this mon even more unkillable and can be used as utility for your teammates. No debate this deserves the S- rank.

Now its time for me to Drop Kick something a grade down:

Mega-Mawile: A- to B+

Don't get me wrong, Mega-Mawile is still a great wall/stallbreaker due to its sheer power. However, its "meh" speed a somewhat decent bulk makes it somewhat suspectible to being revenge killed. I really loved this mon when Trick Room was very prominent during and after OLT, as it can just run through teams even without an SD. But something about this mon really icks me in terms of its currently viability. I think 4MSS is an issue with Mega Mawile, as it wants to hit everything it can. ThunderPunch, Ice punch, Fire Fang, Sucker Punch, SD, Play Rough, Knock Off, Iron Head, Stealth Rocks. Of course, you can say that's what team composition is for, but again, this being limited to 4 moves hinder its capability of punching holes through teams. Also, after laddering up in the OU and watching SPL, Mega Mawile wasn't as seen as the mon to use in comparison to its A- counterparts such as Zapdos, Gliscor and the Mega-Lati twins. As much as I like using Mega-Mawile, I think B+ suits its viability the best.

Dreadfury · May 28, 2018

Here are several reflections on some of the nominations and proposals I've seen thus far in this thread. This is a really big and really, really comprehensive post, so I strongly encourage other users to really pick apart some of what I have to say in here if something I said anywhere seems off. In addition, I encourage people to privately discuss some of these things with me should we be flooding this thread too much thereafter. I'm obviously not as experienced as actual tournament players and thus don't use my personal experiences in tournaments as evidence or support for many claims I make, so a good portion of this is based on theory, my own experiences on the Showdown ladder at a couple different levels of play, and acute observations of existing replays and other information provided.

Note: Some of the notation I'll use in this post may potentially be rather confusing for players new to the scene, so I'll provide a very brief key so you can better understand how I go about writing and supporting nominations.

If I refer to something in S-, A-, or a similar "minus" subrank, I will always have a space after the subrank. If I say "...the existence of an S- rank is heavily justified by how much better Clefable is than most of the stuff in A+," I will always have a space after S- to denote that I am specifically talking about that particular "minus" subrank.
If I talk about a full rank, such as all of S and S- or all of A+, A, and A-, I will refer to the collective rank as an S-rank, an A-rank, and so on, without a space. If I say "...I do feel that many of the things that are either currently in S- or are being nominated for S- as of recently are still fitting of an S-rank of sorts given the criteria many people have noted in past nominations," I will not have the space noted in the previous instance to denote that I am arguing that something should be placed in one full collection of subranks, wherever it may end up in that rank, as opposed to a whole letter's difference. If I think something is better than B+, I will often argue that it should be in an A-rank, whether that A-rank is A+, A, or A-.

Now that I've gotten my disclaimers out of the way, let's move on to the real meat and potatoes of this post.
Clefable from A+ to S- : Strongly Agree

The queen of ORAS OU is still good at doing the things it was good at doing before. I'd go so far as to say it's a better rocker than even Lando-T and I feel that, while A+ is excellent for sure, the existence of an S- rank is heavily justified by how much better Clefable is than most of the stuff in A+. S- is a very, very good indication of how viable it is in this metagame.

Zygarde from A+ to S- : Strongly Agree

With Thousand Arrows being a thing, Zygarde has fantastic coverage in but a single attack. The amount of moveslots this frees up gives it unparalleled versatility. Weakness Policy, three different Z-moves including one that eliminates Clefable, SubCoil variants, and much, much more are some of Zygarde's most prominent sets, and with the rise of Screens support, Zygarde finds itself being one of the most threatening sweepers in the tier since nothing actually kills it under screens. I made a post like this nearly a year ago, and I'll say the same thing again: Zygarde will never be anything short of one of the tier's most dangerous threats. If the metagame shifts, Zygarde has the tools needed to adapt and flourish. Anything save for some hypothetical rise of extremely fast and hard-hitting Ice-types won't even drag Zygarde down since it has the tools to work around literally anything. This was true when I made my first post on this site, it is true now, and it will be true when this meta is near the end of its life.

Volcarona from A to A+ : All of my YES

In early July last year, I made this post detailing why I disagreed with the then-frequent discussion of Volcarona dropping to A instead of remaining in A+, and what I had to say in that post remains incredibly true even today. The metagame has shifted considerably since those days - I'm pretty sure we were living in an Arena Trap meta at the time - yet many of the things I had to say about Volcarona back then remain true today, albeit with some moveset differences.

A lot of base 101+ Choice Scarf users have fallen out of favor since then, and this therefore means that Volcarona has fewer revenge killers to worry about. It doesn't have to run Charti as much anymore, which means it gets its pick of the litter for several different Z-moves. Psychium-Z still eats Toxapex, which is on the decline, alive. HP Ice still eats Zygarde, which is on the rise, alive or irreparably damages defensive variants. Hidden Power Ground can shred a ballsy Heatran thinking it can come in on one of Volc's other moves. Firium-Z has fallen in favor of Buginium-Z, but many of the things true of the old Firium-Z sets back then are even more true today.

The rise of the SubSwarm+Buginium-Z set has given Volcarona an immeasurable amount of firepower as a lategame sweeper. It can set a Sub up on a potential status move or something that doesn't threaten it, and it can then proceed to pick up at least one boost. The amount of things that Savage Spin-Out can absolutely maim when boosted by Swarm is incredible, and it can easily OHKO numerous "counters" after just a single boost. Even Toxapex and Chansey can get torn in half by Savage Spin-Out after a couple of boosts, which isn't at all unrealistic. In my own experience, SubSwarm is an A+ worthy set in and of itself and its ability to brute-force its way through old Volcarona counters should never be underestimated.

A lot of current metagame trends are quite favorable for Volcarona. And with its more innovative sets becoming better in recent days I can't really say it's gotten worse as a whole. After all, it still has the same, classic Quiver Dance+3 Attacks set that made it A+ worthy in a harsher meta. Now it just has more.

TL;DR: While Volcarona requires a fair bit of team support to truly shine, the amount of work this thing can put in against ALL team archetypes with said support makes it a top-tier, centralizing force in the current OU metagame. Every single time Volc has been considered for a drop in the past it has been able to adapt to a more unfavorable metagame and has, historically, always bounced back into A+ shortly afterwards if it had dropped before. Volcarona should return to A+, where it rightfully belongs, and I'd even go so far as to say it should never drop from there again unless the metagame shifts so considerably that Volcarona's versatility in performing that single role it performs is compromised such that it cannot work around that shift any longer. Volcarona is a weird case where it's not quite consistently incredible enough to always be A+ but is also a cut above anything that it would share A with, but I'd argue that A+ is still a better indication of what Volcarona is and what Volcarona does than A could ever be.

Zapdos from A- to A : Agree

This thing is quite predictable, but it's always good at what it does. It has a fantastic typing and great stats and a pretty good movepool to assist it in defogging and stalling. It's consistent, and consistency is always good for something that needs to perform a support role.

Weavile from B+ to A- : Agree

A is jumping the gun a bit (but is realistic enough), but Weavile is really appreciating a lot of metagame trends currently and thus should appear somewhere in the A-ranks nevertheless. AV Bulu, the Mega Latis, Reuniclus, and Tornadus-T are great and are becoming increasingly common in today's meta, and Weavile's favorable matchup against the likes of Zygarde and Lando-T - two very powerful and very prominent threats in the current metagame as is - further help its case. A fast Pursuit trapper with favorable matchups against some of the tier's premiere Ground, Flying, and Psychic/Dragon types is a great niche to fulfill that really differentiates it from the tier's other Pursuit trapper(s). I think Weavile is more than deserving of a rise due to that niche, which greatly differentiates it from the likes of Tyranitar or Bisharp as a Pursuit trapper or Mamoswine as a formerly anti-meta hard-hitting Ice-type.

Hawlucha from A to A- : Disagree

Everyone knows what this thing is. Everyone knows what this thing does. But in case you don't know what this thing is or what this thing does, let me enlighten you: it holds a Seed of your choice (it's usually seen relatively often paired alongside Tapu Koko with an Electric Seed since Koko helps wear down things for Hawlucha to kill lategame), and with the support of a Tapu of your choice it comes in when potential revenge killers and checks are worn down or eliminated, eats its seed to boost its bulk to passable levels while activating Unburden, sets up Swords Dance if possible, and wins the game unless High-Jump Kick misses and kills it. It's one of OU's best lategame sweepers and it's a threat that pairs well with some of OU's top threats in the Tapus not named Tapu Fini, and though the metagame is adapting to its existence, with people running more of its checks and few counters, I'd say that a drop isn't particularly warranted for Hawlucha. The fact of the matter is, Hawlucha is linear and prepared for, but there is a very good reason why people tend to prepare for Hawlucha with several checks. Tapu Koko and Tapu Bulu, both of which are still great in this metagame and both of which are great Hawlucha teammates, are able to threaten the likes of Mega Pinsir, Zapdos, Ash-Greninja, and Lando-T throughout the game. Hawlucha is generally not meant to take any of these on if they're very healthy.

Hawlucha is very much like Mega Sharpedo in UU, minus the latter's insane wallbreaking ability: it's best used when its revenge killers and defensive answers are sufficiently weakened or eliminated courtesy of its teammates and any of the support they provide, and is incredible at doing so. Just as you're probably not going to attempt to sweep with Sharpedo while Breloom and Infernape can kill it with their strong priority, you're probably not going to attempt to sweep with Hawlucha until Mega Pinsir and Ash-Greninja, as some of OU's stronger priority users, are dealt with. Just as you're probably not going to attempt to sweep with Sharpedo while Cobalion and Alomomola are healthy enough to stop its sweep, you're also probably not going to attempt to sweep with Hawlucha while bulkier checks like Zapdos and Lando-T are healthy enough to actually check Hawlucha.

Hawlucha is still a tier-defining setup sweeper. I definitely agree that Hawlucha is more prepared for, but I'd argue that it being prepared for more often nowadays is a testament to how threatening it truly is. I do agree that it could be due for a drop in the future, but I don't agree that this is its time to drop yet. I'd still consider it a centralizing enough threat to keep in A since it's really strong and really hard to revenge kill. Plus, it has reliable recovery to give it a pretty surprising amount of longevity for a sweeper of its caliber.

The S- rank from S- to Unranked : STRONGLY Disagree

OU is currently in a very weird place in terms of viability-related things: Lando-T is the best thing in the tier by a decent margin and should be a standalone in whatever subrank it's placed in, so S is a good representation of where it is, but the existence of an S- rank in the first place is a testament to how there are some things that are a cut below Lando-T but a cut above the typical things you'd see in A+. I'd propose that S and S- be arranged in order of viability instead of alphabetically, but this causes a lot of discussion that probably doesn't need to happen. But I do feel that many of the things that are either currently in S- or are being nominated for S- as of recently are still fitting of an S-rank of sorts given the criteria (centralization, offensive and defensive benefits, high usage, few true counters, versatility, etc.) many people have noted in past nominations of things into the illustrious rank, so pushing everything down a subrank in an attempt to fix any issues that the existence of an S- rank cause isn't really a feasible solution either.

Similarly, an S+ rank (I know nobody brought it up but I want to just dispel any potential ideas of doing so right away) doesn't accurately portray Lando's place in the metagame: while it is indeed the best, S+ is generally reserved for things that would be suspected and banned pretty quickly in a regular tier. Lando-T is to USuMo OU not even a fraction of what Snorlax is to GSC OU, or what Primal Groudon is to basically any tier it'll find itself in at any given point. It is not so ubiquitous that the end of a ladder or tournament match is frequently a Lando vs. Lando situation and where the viability of numerous things in the tier hinges on their abilities to either tank hits from it and phaze it out or kill it outright, and it is not so ubiquitous and polarizing that it singlehandedly makes something that would otherwise be one of the single most dangerous attackers in the tier a lowly C-rank with an incredibly broken ability that turns its 4x weakness into a flat-out immunity and gives its most spammable STAB moves an Adaptability boost. Lando-T is indeed excellent. But it isn't even in the same ballpark as Primal Groudon or Gen 2 Snorlax.

Therefore, I feel that, currently, the existence of an S- rank is fine: it accurately portrays the overall viability of things in this tier, where many things are worthy of being in an S-rank but few if any of those things are worthy of being ranked directly alongside Lando-T, the king of Gen 7 OU.

This post is already looking to be a pretty wild ride, so to save my readers the struggle of reading another seven paragraphs or something, I'm gonna list the remainder of my nomination agrees/disagrees, with a one-liner reason for each:

Mega Latias AND Mega Latios from A- to A: Agree (Fantastic and versatile staple on Balance; Exceptional mixed attacker that is extremely undersold by being in A-.)

Gastrodon from B+ to A- : STRONGLY Agree (Anti-meta enough to be meta, enough role compression to be deserving of a high rank. Part of me also wants this thing to be highly ranked so it gets the usage it deserves to write the biggest comeback story since Gen 6 Quagsire.)

Tangrowth from B+ to A- : Disagree (Bulu does most of what it does anyway.)

Kartana from S- to A+ : STRONGLY Disagree (This thing is both a great scarfer and a great wallbreaker and remains a top offensive threat in the current OU metagame.)

Gliscor from A- to A : Agree (This thing is phenomenal and incredibly versatile, and Defog+Poison Heal being a legal combination is just some icing on the cake that gives Gliscor yet another tool to be extremely meaningful in this tier.)

Heatran from S- to S: STRONGLY Disagree (It's definitely one of OU's best, but it nothing should be in the same subrank as King Lando. Given my argument in favor of keeping an S- rank, I feel that Heatran's viability is accurately represented as such: not quite as good as Lando-T but definitely a cut above anything in A+ due to both its offensive and defensive utility and its incredible versatility in any of those roles.

Anyway, I apologize for the essay. But I hope that what I have to say here will be able to spark even more meaningful discussion in the near future.

LordHelix · May 29, 2018

I feel that we should stop comparing everything to lando when nommed for s rank, it isn't called the landorus rank its the s rank which is for mons that influence the entire tier strongly, we went through that same argument with toxapex and in oras too everytime a mon gets nommed to S

You can't tell me heatran is one of the most disgusting mons to face no matter what are you against, i find theres almost no reason to not use heatran in the tier, it is a bitch vs balance, stall and offense and is super easily splashed with dumb clef or bulu cores and always puts in work whether is grassium z, toxic, trapper or w/e.

It also played a huge part in making gastrodon rise to ou (yea checking koko and gren too is nice but isnt that what bulu and tang did? But unfortunately they give heatran free switchins which is a big no-no), not even mentioning its amazing matchup vs stall and fatter teams

I agree with Heatran S- to S, idc if its not lando level its very much better than all the other mons right now and S will reflect that (imo)

As for other noms i agree with
Kartana S- to A+ not sure but lean on agree, this mon is overly prepared to as fuck, u cant say drop hawlucha for the ubiquity of zapdos and not say the same for kartana, not mentioning knock off was a bit overhyped. Then again kartana always puts in work so idk rlly
Zapdos A- to A i had no idea zapdos was still A-, its way more consistent and definitely more fitting to be in A

Edit: I think that S- can feel kinda unnecessary since A+ more or less represent the scariest mons in the tier but idk, kartana isnt THAT much better than the insane threats in A+ to be in a new subrank on its own for example. There shouldnt be a whole subrank existing purely because people feel nothing should be ranked next to lando

volx757 · May 29, 2018

Dreadfury said:
The S- rank from S- to Unranked : STRONGLY Disagree

OU is currently in a very weird place in terms of viability-related things: Lando-T is the best thing in the tier by a decent margin and should be a standalone in whatever subrank it's placed in, so S is a good representation of where it is, but the existence of an S- rank in the first place is a testament to how there are some things that are a cut below Lando-T but a cut above the typical things you'd see in A+. I'd propose that S and S- be arranged in order of viability instead of alphabetically, but this causes a lot of discussion that probably doesn't need to happen. But I do feel that many of the things that are either currently in S- or are being nominated for S- as of recently are still fitting of an S-rank of sorts given the criteria (centralization, offensive and defensive benefits, high usage, few true counters, versatility, etc.) many people have noted in past nominations of things into the illustrious rank, so pushing everything down a subrank in an attempt to fix any issues that the existence of an S- rank cause isn't really a feasible solution either.

Similarly, an S+ rank (I know nobody brought it up but I want to just dispel any potential ideas of doing so right away) doesn't accurately portray Lando's place in the metagame: while it is indeed the best, S+ is generally reserved for things that would be suspected and banned pretty quickly in a regular tier. Lando-T is to USuMo OU not even a fraction of what Snorlax is to GSC OU, or what Primal Groudon is to basically any tier it'll find itself in at any given point. It is not so ubiquitous that the end of a ladder or tournament match is frequently a Lando vs. Lando situation and where the viability of numerous things in the tier hinges on their abilities to either tank hits from it and phaze it out or kill it outright, and it is not so ubiquitous and polarizing that it singlehandedly makes something that would otherwise be one of the single most dangerous attackers in the tier a lowly C-rank with an incredibly broken ability that turns its 4x weakness into a flat-out immunity and gives its most spammable STAB moves an Adaptability boost. Lando-T is indeed excellent. But it isn't even in the same ballpark as Primal Groudon or Gen 2 Snorlax.

Therefore, I feel that, currently, the existence of an S- rank is fine: it accurately portrays the overall viability of things in this tier, where many things are worthy of being in an S-rank but few if any of those things are worthy of being ranked directly alongside Lando-T, the king of Gen 7 OU.

I unbolded your bolds so I can bold my own.

This argument for keeping the S- rank didn't compel me. The viability ranking tiers are arbitrary; whether we call them S, A+, A, A-, etc.. or Horse, Dog, Cow, etc.., all that matters is their ranking in comparison to one another. The above quoted sounds like an argument for keeping the rank name S-, not for preserving the status of the mons currently within the rank. Since names are abitrary, the only reason to keep an S- rank should be to preserve the status of the mons that are in it.

However, within the same post you also nominate Clefable and Zygarde to the S- rank. In the last couple pages their have been noms also for Tapu Koko to go to S- rank. So the goal here is not to preserve the status of Heatran, but to preserve the arbitrary rank name 'S-.'

Say all three of these noms were to go through. Now here's what our S- and A+ ranks look like:

S- Rank

Heatran

Kartana

Clefable

Zygarde

Tapu Koko

A+ Rank

Ferrothorn

Greninja-Ash

Magearna

Toxapex

These movements then also start to feel very arbitrary. This week, Tapu Koko is better than Ash-gren. Next week, the opposite is true. Maybe two weeks from now Toxapex is once again dominating, and Clefable is utterly prepared for, and they switch places.
While I understand the viability rankings are a fluid list that is meant to update and change as the meta does, the proposed rises/drops have been for marginal increases/decreases in viability in comparison to the mon's peers, and I don't think the distinctions are very important. We have 9 pokemon representing the best of the best in USUM. ~~If we want to drop pex and gear to A-, then we get 7.~~ This seems reasonable.

"many people have noted in past nominations of things into the illustrious rank"

This argument make me think that the rationale for keeping S- rank is just because the name 'S-' sounds impressive. But if we as a community make it so, the A+ rank is equally as impressive. If people truly feel that Heatran and Kartana are no longer head and shoulders better than the mons in A+ rank, the elegant solution is not to stuff more things into S- until it's larger than the A+ rank itself, but to simply remove S- and group all of the best pokemon in the meta in the same tier: A+.

Thunder Pwoell · May 29, 2018

tired of yall overhyping tran. It's everywhere now but the issue is that it makes it's own weakness - esp since its paired with lando like 90% of the time. Shits really easy to take care of if youre not being basic. Is it good yes, but really in no way should be it in the same company as the rest of those mons. Idc if u run 3-4 fairies on a team

Dreadfury · May 29, 2018

volx757 said:
This argument make me think that the rationale for keeping S- rank is just because the name 'S-' sounds impressive. But if we as a community make it so, the A+ rank is equally as impressive. If people truly feel that Heatran and Kartana are no longer head and shoulders better than the mons in A+ rank, the elegant solution is not to stuff more things into S- until it's larger than the A+ rank itself, but to simply remove S- and group all of the best pokemon in the meta in the same tier: A+.

Disagreed. Generally, the rationale for having something in an S-rank is having it be versatile - more often than not an offensive or a defensive threat at will - or an extremely polarizing offensive or defensive force. Things in an S-rank run the metagame. So while I'd argue that Koko is definitely really good offensively, it isn't as good offensively to make up for its few defensive benefits (although Fat Koko is becoming a thing), so I disagree with its nomination to S-. Likewise, I don't think Ash-Gren is worthy of S- because it, too, isn't really very diverse: it's often just running a Specs set with a slightly variable movepool. It's really, really good, but it isn't going over and above that. Likewise, it can deviate from those Specs sets and still perform pretty well, but it isn't offering much defensive utility to a team either way.

Everything in S- right now, and most of the nominations for S- thus far, are very diverse in nature. Heatran has both offensive and defensive sets, with bulky and offensive trapper sets, Bloom Doom lure sets, and a few stallbreaker sets. Zygarde has both offensive and defensive sets, which I've listed many of in my essay above. Clefable is incredible at performing an array of different support roles by virtue of its amazing movepool and two incredibly strong abilities, and can fulfill any of the following: a consistent Stealth Rock setter, a good Knock Off spammer, a potential win-con when its counters are eliminated with a powerful Calm Mind set, a Wish passer, a status sponge courtesy of Magic Guard, a check to some powerful sweepers courtesy of Unaware, a cleric courtesy of Heal Bell... the list goes on. Kartana is less-varied than the likes of Zygarde and Heatran and doesn't offer as much role compression as Clefable and Heatran, but it makes up for this by functioning as the tier's most effective lategame sweeper and one of its mightiest wallbreakers, and it can completely change up its checks, counters, and playstyle with its coverage options and its Z-move or its Choice Scarf.

The things that are in an S-rank are supposed to be the biggest constraints on teambuilding and the most driving forces in the metagame. You need to account for them more than you need to account for other things in the tier, and you're more likely to use one of these if you need something that fulfills a niche you desperately need than you are something in a lower rank. Some of these things are straight-up better than just an A+ rank, even if we were to change what that A+ rank meant. Many of the things in A+ deserve to be noted as some of the biggest threats in the metagame, but things like Clefable and Heatran are above those. It's accepted that nothing should share the same subrank with Lando-T, but there are still things in the current metagame that fit into the "not quite as good as Lando-T, not quite as 'bad' as Ash-Gren or Koko" category. That's obviously not to say that Ash-Gren and Koko are bad by any means, but there are things that are better but not the best. The S- rank perfectly denotes this: there are, indeed, things that would fit into an S-rank that are not quite worthy of sharing the throne with Lando.

Divine Retribution · May 29, 2018

Dreadfury said:
Disagreed. Generally, the rationale for having something in an S-rank is having it be versatile -

No offense but you're wrong right off the bat. Versatility does not equal viability (just look at something like Silvally that can pull off a dozen different sets... but none of them remotely viable), and while Heatran is arguably pretty versatile, Kartana has all of about 2 different sets and like 5 or 6 different viable moves it can run. Calling Kartana versatile is questionable at best. Sure, being able to function as either a wincon or a revengekiller and having Defog to boot is really nice, but that doesn't really compare to something like Magearna that can run a variety of different sweeping sets, Trick Room, Assault Vest, etc or Clefable with its myriad of bullshit movesets it can run and roles it can fill. For that matter, let's take a look at the only other Pokemon to have been S rank in USUM besides Lando; Naganadel. Naganadel literally had one viable set (2 if you count its extremely mediocre and easy to deal with Scarf set) and yet that didn't stop it from being by far the best Pokemon in the entire metagame.

That being said, I disagree that Heatran and Kartana are so much better than the likes of Koko, Zygarde, Ash-Gren, etc. that they deserve their own subrank, and in my opinion the solution isn't to move half of A+ up to S-, it's to do away with S- entirely.

Dreadfury · May 29, 2018

Divine Retribution said:
No offense but you're wrong right off the bat. Versatility does not equal viability (just look at something like Silvally that can pull off a dozen different sets... but none of them remotely viable), and while Heatran is arguably pretty versatile, Kartana has all of about 2 different sets and like 5 or 6 different viable moves it can run.

If you read the other part of that sentence there you'd have seen that there was an "or" there. They can either be extremely versatile - which things like Heatran and Zygarde most certainly are - or extremely polarizing in an offensive or defensive sense, which Kartana most certainly is, and which Naganadel most certainly was (obviously to a much, much, much more extreme degree than Kartana). They have/had a handful of sets at most but those sets were so good that they absolutely deserved to be noted as some of the best in the tier. And the Silvally comparison doesn't quite work in this case because Silvally is actually unviable. Silvally isn't even good enough to be close to an S-rank. The things that are in or that have been nominated for S- are good enough that them being in A+ is questionable because they do go above and beyond what you'd normally expect of an A-rank. Plus, I'd even venture to say that having Lando-T as the sole thing in an S-rank whatsoever is misleading and heavily implies that nothing can truly come close to it, and while Lando-T certainly does have considerable influence on this metagame and deserves to be in S, having it be in its own tier seems even more offputting than having things fall into a middle ground between A+ and S. Plus, it's an accurate reflection of the current meta: there are things that are better than truly great, but worse than downright fantastic.

There are my two cents on the matter.

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