Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

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However, your mention of a so-called Double Dance set isn't really realistic, as running both Calm Mind and Iron Defense means it gets stripped from coverage moves.
You should probably watch a bit more ladder games. Also pair it with Toxic Spikes, and use Acid Armor because it has more PP. Acid Armor is essential to outstalling Dark-types or escaping Pursuit in case Toxic Spikes arent up.

e: also this https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/reuniclus-revamp.3639930/
 
There goes another blacklisted mon, I hope this one doesn't share the same fate



Nidoking: from C to C+

The kind of mon that gets overlooked too often, the prevalence of balance has improved Nido's life quality over the past months, and now with Gastro declining in, Nidoking just wrecks it. The rise of Clefable, Heatran, defensive Bulu, shuca Koko, non-EQ Celesteela, and Phys Def Scizor is really a blessing. 95 speed is not that bad either, as it outspeeds Adamant Zygarde, Kyurem-B, bulky Scarf-Lando if knocked out (according to Smogon analysis it's 293 speed) and Gliscor. It no longer suffer 4MSS either , since Mantine is not relevant anymore. Finally Nidoking is amazing on webs, which is gaining traction after Riboombe got used on OLT.


Also +1 on unrank M-Mane. As someone said earlier the tier is flowing with special attackers and the Mane+Lando Volt-Turn core is the only reason anyone will ever consider using it from now on.
 


Xurkitree: UR ---> C-/C

Xurkitree @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Energy Ball
- Tail Glow

This mon has a super solid niche as a wallbreaker/sweeper on Webs, a playstyle that's been picking up since OLT started. It has basically no switchins and is capable of blowing past basically every defensive mon in the tier if it can get up a Tail Glow, which it easily can on common mons like Torn-T and Tbolt/Uturn Koko. Shuca Berry allows it to live an EQ or Thousand Arrows from any Lando or Zygarde set and KO back with HP Ice. Z Hypnosis is uneeded because the lack of Energy Ball seriously diminishes it's balance breaking ability (it can't hit Gastrodon) and because the only style Xurk really fits on is Webs imo. With some good predictions, Xurkitree becomes a major threat for almost any team, especially with Webs support. Here are some calcs, proving just how strong Xurkitree is:

+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Hidden Power Ice vs. 224 HP / 216+ SpD Tapu Bulu: 310-366 (91.9 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
+6 252 SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 460-543 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 288-340 (41 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 169-199 (41.8 - 49.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Here are some replays from the 1600s-1700s where Xurk put in work.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-770761233
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-770769485
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-770772786
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-770786667
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-770789423
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-770850900


I'd also like to support Zygarde to S, mon has nothing that answers every single set aside from Avalugg
 
I’d like to talk about moving Zeraora up to at least C+ on the merits of its Choice Band set, which I think can absolutely put in consistent work in the current meta. This isn’t so much of a “meta change” opinion becuase I think its just a bit undervalued atm. Sorry if this is a bit rambling.

C rank is filled with things that have a fairly high opportunity cost of either having to run specific teams or losing your mega slot. Zeraora competes with Koko for a slot on most builds but it has different ways of harassing its checks. Knock Off is a huge plus for it, as it gives you a safe and moderately strong midground play as Zygarde and Landorus and Ferrothorn and Tangrowth hate losing their items.

I’ve found Zeraora pairs quite nicely with Torn-T and Pelliper as they can break down each others checks and the birds can get it in safely with U-Turn.

Band Zeraora has a favorable matchup against many (most?) of S and A ranked mons. Modest Zam dies to Knock Off and you live Timid Zam’s Psychic. The bulky grasses that utterly wall Tapu Koko (Tang, Bulu, Ferro) can be comfortably 1v1d with Fire Punch. Mega Venusaur is nowhere to be found, which is definitely Zeraoras hardest posssible counter. Basically what’s I’m saying is that nothing really wants to switch into this thing.

It also has a fairly decent ability, which can severely hamper opposing Volt-turn if you play well. I’m totally content with it being C+ for now, I’m 100% confident it’s at least as useful and consistent as stuff like Hydreigon and Thundurus.
 
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A few thoughts on some discussion points…


Clefable from A+ to S

Agree

Refer to my previous 2 posts (Essay Alert)

Edit: a lot of you seem to disagree on this because Clef is passive against top tier mons and isn't threatening on its own. I just wanna note that the same counts for Heatran and Lando too (the passivity part), since most Lando can't stop/are setup bait for a boosting Hawlucha, a boosting Clefable (Calm Mind/Stored Power, though not its most common sets), SD/Curse + Roost Mega Scizor, SD Tapu Bulu etc. while Heatran is passive against Calm Mind variants of Mega Zam, Mega Latias, Sub Zygarde, SD Gliscor, Volcarona etc. All of these mons are staples and top tier threats too.

As for the "threatening" part, I don't believe Clefable is discussed to be an S rank Pokemon because it's threatening but because of it's supportive qualities, much like Pex once was. Now Pex did have Haze to stop setup and therefore also the opponent gaining momentum and while Clef doesn't have that, it's Wishes, if correctly executed, can also immensely turn the momentum in a battle. And if you're really worried about setup, you could always run Thunder Wave over Wish (or Stealth Rock because both Heatran and Lando are excellent rockers too and have good synergy with Clef)

Lopunny-Mega to B

Not too sure. With Zam running Modest all the time, Mega Lop is basically the fastest Pokemon bar Zeraora, which is a pretty big niche. Reliably revenge killing stuff like Koko, (Non Scarf) (Ash-) Gren, chipped offensive Bulu, Band/Z-Kartana and now Mega Zam too is pretty nice. Pairing it with breakers should be enough to handle Balance, but it is pretty outclassed by a lot of mega’s right now due to it getting shut down by the omnipresent Clef. Abstain since this is all theorymonning and I haven’t really tried it out.

Tyranitar to A-

Agree

Its trapping capabilities are being undermined with Zam, Fightinium Lele and Mega Latios being the premier Psychics in teams, which also gives it competition with Weavile which is fast enough to threaten said threats (bar Zam, but that doesn’t want to risk Focus Miss anyway). The omnipresent core of Lando + Clef shuts it down and it’s a huge setup bait for (Coil/Double Dance) Zygarde when not locked in Crunch. Still very threatening in the right hands so A- seems suitable.

Chansey to A

Agree

Still the face of stall, so that department hasn’t changed but the recent success in Balance does make it a very intriguing pick right now. The ability to take on the rising Psychics (especially Zam) is invaluable while also providing rocks/cleric/status sponge support and the ability to PP stall a lot of things like the rising Serperior makes it shine even more. Frankly, it’s also a counter/check/blanket check to every single Special Attacker, some of which are on the rise again like Zard Y.

Quagsire to C+

Disagree

Pyukumuku might be the premier Unaware mon on Stall right now, but Quagsire is able to take on Offensive Heatran (bar Grassium Z ofc) which otherwise steamrolls through stall (while Pyukumuku gets trapped, Taunted and taken care of). Losing your Unaware mon can be game-deciding for stall, so to me it’s pretty questionable to blindly choose Pyukumuku over Quagsire while the meta (or at least the viability of the majority of the defensive metagame) is ruled by Heatran.

I also agree with Zygarde rising to S, but I’m tired of this getting rejected/ignored (while it frankly is a very logical nomination and should be realised). I have voiced my support for it countless amounts of times already so I’m not going to react to this anymore. Btw, it would be very helpful if the community could share the opinions on Clef and Zygarde moving to S (or maybe they have, but somehow I’m too dumb not to find them), since Clef rising is a discussion point again (which suggests there are divided opinions about this) and it confuses me why they haven’t been ranked S already.
After reading your post about Clef, I'm going to retract my statement and actually agree for it to rise to S rank. I still do find Clefable is passive to more threats than Lando and Heatran, but like you said it's supportive capabilities is enough to push into S rank, just because how splash-able it is and how well it glues teams together.

Also I would like to echo the nominations for
to B - Agreed. I think B- kinda undervalues it as well. Sub CM has the ability to 6-0 Stall if played correctly, Specs is a strong wallbreaker choice when in a match-up without TTar (even then after some chip, HP Grass can pick-off guaranteed at 80%), whilst Scarf threatens common top tier mons such as Kart, Koko, Mega Latios etc. Let's just not get back on the hype train it once was on though, B is a good spot.
to A- - Agreed. Like Jordy said, underrated mid-late game sweeper and reliable one at that. Paired with Toxic Spikes, you can afford to run Double Dance (CM/Acid Armor) and PP stall Dark-types. Doesn't care about Toxic or Burn due to Magic Guard, setups on many top tier walls and pivots such as Clefable, Celesteela and even Mega Scizor etc.
 
So yeah I’m making a post in this thread because yeah viability! Let’s get started.

Kingdra to C+
How the hell has this mon stayed so high in the vr. Rain is not looking too hot rn and Ash Gren has so much more potential in rain over Kingdra. Hell even Qwilfish has a superior niche with it taking on rain checks like Bulu for a good example. It’s still a strong mon in rain, but since the archetype is getting worse, this mon gets worse with it.

Zygarde to S

Broken mon with a broken move that has broken sweeping potential and broken versatility and its splashable as some icing on the cake. No specific check is consistent enough at stopping Zygarde due to its humongous amount of sets and it becomes a complete monster if you let it set up. Did I forget to mention that this mon is broken?

Reuniclus to A-
I’ve really been liking this mon on balance. It possesses some really awesome sweeping potential with double dance having game winning potential. Magic Guard along with decent bulk offers it tons of opportunities to set up. Jordy explained it enough to why it should rise so I’m just reiterating his points.

Mantine to C+
When was the last time this mon was used competitively? It’s in my definition: a situational defogger and really nothing has helped it. Gastro while on a decline, is still a strong balance pick, Mega Zam copies Water Absorb to punish it, Serp who’s the new hot stuff destroys this mon through set up especially if it clicks Defog, and it’s too passive for its own good. Honestly the Pex is less passive than this tbh.

But yeah those are my noms. I just like to be quick and concise with them.
 

Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
If people keep being lame I’m just gonna lock the thread and can only post updates js
im just saying that if I pulled half the shit he did I'd be banished but its fine lmao i get it yall got it. ANYWAY


MY PEOPLE. ITS THE TIME WE BEEN WAITING ON. I am nominating the king, sir gucci, mr burrr himself for C rank, Crabominable. I don't think people understand the flat out power this mon posses. With 132 base attack, nice hp and nice defenses this shit can rock some teams. It has a nice movepool equipped with tpunch, ice hammer, close combat, rock slide, earthquake, pup, etc. and it can hit anything it needs to. nearly unresisted. Speaking of broke niggas and shit, this thing in TR is lowkey broke. It flat out okos half of the tier outright with band or life orb and can take care of any threat (bar fire types most of the time bar the rock moe). just need to set up and get it in. Depending on how you build you really only need it as ur TR attacker as itll at the absolute least dent some shit. I highly recc using it with a mage or a an offensive tr setter. just something to get this in safely. With TR yuo have hella options and this should definitely be on ur radar.

Relevant "wall of calcs" -:
252+ Atk Life Orb Crabominable Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 253-298 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
bruh lmao

252+ Atk Crabominable All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 306-361 (101.6 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Crabominable Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados-Mega: 265-312 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Crabominable: 184-217 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Crabominable Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 221-260 (72.9 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

While I will gladly admit that it suffers from lack of hitting too many things shit hits amaizngly hard and should be a staple on ur teams with TR. AV is also an option but for many people thats too advanced of a tech (
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Crabominable: 288-342 (72.3 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) thats enough for my purposes but wont talk about that. Happy friday people! Love Omari P


replays:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-785634981
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-785625356
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-785655538
 
So yeah I’m making a post in this thread because yeah viability! Let’s get started.

Kingdra to C+
How the hell has this mon stayed so high in the vr. Rain is not looking too hot rn and Ash Gren has so much more potential in rain over Kingdra. Hell even Qwilfish has a superior niche with it taking on rain checks like Bulu for a good example. It’s still a strong mon in rain, but since the archetype is getting worse, this mon gets worse with it.

Zygarde to S

Broken mon with a broken move that has broken sweeping potential and broken versatility and its splashable as some icing on the cake. No specific check is consistent enough at stopping Zygarde due to its humongous amount of sets and it becomes a complete monster if you let it set up. Did I forget to mention that this mon is broken?

Reuniclus to A-
I’ve really been liking this mon on balance. It possesses some really awesome sweeping potential with double dance having game winning potential. Magic Guard along with decent bulk offers it tons of opportunities to set up. Jordy explained it enough to why it should rise so I’m just reiterating his points.

Mantine to C+
When was the last time this mon was used competitively? It’s in my definition: a situational defogger and really nothing has helped it. Gastro while on a decline, is still a strong balance pick, Mega Zam copies Water Absorb to punish it, Serp who’s the new hot stuff destroys this mon through set up especially if it clicks Defog, and it’s too passive for its own good. Honestly the Pex is less passive than this tbh.

But yeah those are my noms. I just like to be quick and concise with them.
Agree with the rest but to say rain is getting worse is blatantly wrong. OLT has shown that rain is still a super spammable archetype; if anything it's looking the best it has in the past few months. Kingdra isnt a great mon but I dont think now is the time to derank it.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Look, I realize I'm more of a retired moderator, but the last few pages of these unnecessary one-liners and call outs should really stop (and I will continue to delete them).

First and foremost, I understand the recent nominations have been somewhat controversial - especially since the majority have wanted to make these nominations to rank something into the C Ranks. To be clear - while I agree that things that are catching onto popularity, like Moltres on stall, should be recognized, argued, and ranked, I feel that Pokemon that have very little-to-no usage at this time outside of perhaps low ladder and maybe an extremely small number of players shouldn't really count as a good example of a nomination. Not to say that I don't see the side to wanting to nominate some of these Pokemon, but I feel that focusing harder on what's currently on the slate is more important. Some of the recent nominations barely even qualify as niche picks in my opinion sans possibly Crabominable.

Secondly, one liners and the like are refrained from the rules, and let it be damned if I have to actually pull myself out of retirement just to make sure people stop posting one liners and constant call outs while slapping them with a ruler on their wrist - I'll do it. Civility and etiquette are what should be within a VR. Keep on track, keep focused. If you disagree with a nomination it's fine to point it out with reasonable arguments. I totally understand that a lot of people make terrible nominations, especially lower ranked Pokemon, and it definitely inserts a seed into wanting to prevent these. I seriously ask that if you think the nomination is so bad that it should be deleted then asking a moderator politely and explaining your reasoning is a hell of a lot better than the recent track of posts like there have been.

Finally, please don't take my post as a method to discourage posting altogether. Take it more as a plea to use a little reasoning and consideration to prevent the thread from either being derailed or full of unnecessary posts to the point where either result will close the topic.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
There's actually no point in keeping this thread open anymore at this rate. Every time it gets unlocked there are like a whopping two decent posts normally by the same users most of which just get buried by people cherry picking arguments via one liners or nomming shit that will basically just ferment forever in the lower ranks until the council remembers that its there and removes it. Than the cycle continues when another C- Pokemon is nommed. It's like people don't seem to understand the difference between viability and usefulness. I can say with utmost certainty, that most fully evolved Pokemon can be used successfully on a team and accomplish something, even if it's only sometimes or specific situations. All it takes is someone who understands the basic concept of competitive battling and OU metagame knowledge. You don't need to be some god tier ladder or tournament player to do this. All you need is to play a few matches, get replays of it doing something, and there you go. There's your free C- rank nomination post, ignoring that this Pokemon faces competition from countless other Pokemon, but because it's somewhat different and doesn't have the same stats or typing, its deserving of a rank, because hey I can make it work sometimes.

Yeah and lets not forget how disagreeing with these kinds of noms usually just leads to the typical unnecessary smack talk consisting usually of lol nigga do you even play bro lol bullshit because pretending to be rachet on a Pokemon website is cool as shit btw. Like why even try to defend your arguments with an actual well thought out response when you can just intimidate them via trash talking. This thread was never amazing but from an outsiders perspective I honestly don't think I'd even want to post in here if I started playing again, when every time I look here, I'm greeted with a wonderful assortment of toxic posts all of which seem to have lots of support fsr, so as a new player, I'd probably just assume these are great examples of how I should be posting. Thank you for allowing me to derail the thread, Finch. That's all.
 

1_TrickPhony

BSS Circuit Co-host
Lopunny to B: Disagree

In a ladder format, its an excellent choice to pick off sash leads, which I'm sure everyone playing HO during OLT has experienced. Outpacing Zam and being able to hit Sableye are also huge selling points to this character. Sure, it may not be the strongest mon, but having the ability to spam HJK in front of frail mons that are fast (but not too fast) like greninja, serp, blace, all those fuckers that are rising in usage is invaluable. B+ isn't that high and this mon is at least as good as Hoopa and the rain squad RN who also reside in B+.
 
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teachable

Banned deucer.
I'd like to nom Keldeo for at least B tier or possibly B+. The incredibly standard Waterium Z + Taunt set is incredibly good at breaking common cores like anything involving Heatran/Scizor/Gastrodon/Ferrothorn/AV Mag/Gliscor/etc. or providing them with little switch ins. With Pex/Gastro unable to beat it (no one runs the def you need on Gastro rn to tank 2 SS lol), it kinda singlehandedly shits on most Stall/Balance builds assuming you have a good Bulu check or just opt to run HP Poison and check Pex another way. Taunt utility is incredibly underrateht atm, as Taunting stuff like Torn on the switch can mean your hazards stay up and help you chip something like Pex/Tangrowth for a Greninja sweep or whatever. Defensively, it acts as a nice secondary Ash-Greninja check and pivots in nicely/decently on Scizor/Banded TTar/Steela and specifically Heatran with Groundium heavily falling out of favor. Specs is also a worthy consideration when building, as with Scald or the coverage moves HP Poison/Icy Wind and Focus Blast (s/o blunder ) and lack of turn needed for setup you're able to pressure or OHKO common Keld switch ins like Mega Lati@s/Bulu/AV Tangrowth. Not a perfect mon by any means: it has intense 4MSS and its speed tier kinda sucks at this point (especially missing out on outspeeding Kart) but I think it is overall a mon that is not being given the credit it is worth.

Here's some replays, and feel free to check out my RMT for the balance build I made with it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-783992726 - sight of keldeo makes my opponent instant forfeit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-786803570 - Keldeo weakens Clefable, and despite me playing like shit allows me to break a stall team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-784031517 - Keldeo breaks Magearna and setups for a Greninja sweep
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-783958096 - Keldeo comes in on Pex, taunts its Toxic, and claims a kill
 


Also here's another UR nomination cause I know ya'll love these.


Swellow UR ~> C-

Swellow @ Choice Specs
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Heat Wave
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Ground]

This is the set I've been using and I think it is Swellow's best set. Boomburst is one of the main reasons to use Swellow and it is the strongest, most spammable STAB attack. Heat Wave is mandatory coverage to hit common switch-ins such as Magearna, Celesteela, Scizor and Ferrothorn. U-turn is also mandatory to grab momentum against stuff like Chansey on stall teams or Tyranitar before it traps you. The last moveslot is up to the user, but for me the most preferable move is HP Ground to 2HKO Heatran (another common switch-in). Other options are HP Fighting to 2HKO Tyranitar or Defog if you desperately need a hazard remover. EVs and ability should be self-explanatory. Some great teammates for Swellow are strong physical wallbreakers such as Mega Mawile or SD Kartana which enjoy Swellow baiting out special walls and then bringing them in with U-turn. I've used a stall-breaking core of Swellow+SD Kartana+Mega Mawile to beat stall teams that gained more usage during OLT.

  • Hyper offense became one of the prominent playstyles in the last month (mostly because of OLT) and Swellow is a decent anti-hyper offense revenge killer/sweeper, especially good against Sticky Web HOs as it isn't affected by Sticky Web. If you take a look on some of the HO teams posted in the OLT thread or used on ladder, you'll notice that the only Swellow switch-in that appears on HO is offensive Magearna (either SG or TR), which gets 2HKOed by Heat Wave. A lot of times the only way to deal with Swellow for HO is to sack something and then Fake Out with Mega Medicham.
  • Swellow beats Substitute users. Serperior, Blacephalon and Gyarados all increased in usage during OLT since people realized how good they are on HO. Boomburst and Scrappy allows Swellow to OHKO all of them through Substitute.
  • Swellow's match-up against balance and stall is also pretty good. On balance, the few switch-ins to Swellow are usually bulky Steel types (Celesteela, Heatran etc) which get 2HKOed by Heat Wave or HP Ground. So with a bit of prediction, Swellow can take away 50%+ of their health and then double switch out. This way Swellow's checks get worn down so it can comfortably spam Boomburst later in the game.
  • On most stall teams (for example WCOP stall) the only safe switch-in to Swellow is Chansey. This allows Swellow to U-turn out on Chansey and reliably bring in some physical wallbreakers (M-Maw, Kart) as mentioned earlier.
  • Decreased usage of some Pokemon that are a nuisance to Swellow. One of the few reliable answers to Swellow is AV Magearna, which is almost nonexistent at this point. Also people using Protean Greninja over Ash-Greninja more often is great for Swellow, as it outspeeds Protean Greninja and doesn't need to worry about Water Shuriken as much.
  • Summed up: Swellow has a decent match up against hyper offense, balance and stall. It can revenge kill most attackers on HO, break past most common bulky checks with appropriate coverage and prediction and help in breaking down stall teams.

  • Despite having a great speed tier, some Pokemon are faster than it and Swellow needs these Pokemon gone before it attempts to clean with Boomburst in the late game. For example Tapu Koko, Mega Alakazam or transformed Ash-Greninja all are problematic.
  • Swellow is fragile which means strong priority is also a problem. For example Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken, Zygarde's Extreme Speed or Mega Scizor's Bullet Punch.
  • Chansey appearing even outside of stall teams is a bit of a mixed bag for Swellow, as Chansey completely walls it but at the same time allows Swellow to grab momentum with U-turn.

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Blacephalon: 288-339 (93.2 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after one Substitute)

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 184-218 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 169-199 (46.8 - 55.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 292-344 (82.9 - 97.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 195-229 (45.8 - 53.8%) -- 44.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Gastrodon is a check, but a very shaky check)

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 237-280 (71.6 - 84.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 260-308 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD OTR Magearna: 192-226 (52.7 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 130-153 (46 - 54.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (HP Ground is a guaranteed OHKO)

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 124-147 (46.9 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham-Mega: 271-321 (103.8 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor-Mega: 428-508 (124.7 - 148.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 249-294 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (guaranteed OHKO after one Substitute)

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Tapu Bulu: 181-214 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 135-159 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 160 HP / 28 SpD Zygarde: 241-285 (60.7 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (doesn't activate Iapapa Berry unless SR+max roll)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-780703353
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-780433488
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-780712110 This game didn't really work out for Swellow because I thought it OHKOes Mimikyu without a problem (it actually needs a roll to do so). However the opposing team is a clear example of Sticky Web teams being weak to Swellow; it outspeeds all of the opposing Pokemon (because it isn't affected by Sticky Web) and there are no Boomburst resists. So the team kind of relies on priority to revenge kill Swellow.
 
TFW this was originally supposed to happen on Friday or something but Omari got the thread locked two minutes before you were gonna post this so you got cockblocked:

First off, I don't think Kingdra should drop to C+ yet. In fact, I think I'd sooner argue for a Qwilfish rise than to drop Kingdra right now, since Rain has seen a good amount of usage and success on the ladder in light of OLT and Kingdra is usually a staple of rain to cover things that deal with Mega Swampert. I don't think it's amazing, of course, but I feel that, with rain being as good as it is right now, it's definitely a little better than C+.

I think Reuniclus should definitely rise to A-. I haven't seen it particularly OFTEN on the ladder, but when I've seen it I've really had some problems with it. It has a fantastic combination of great bulk, good coverage, good power, reliable recovery, and an incredible ability that lets it function as a powerful wincon. Reuniclus is another one of those things that is significantly better than its tiering would let on, and I think it deserves a place among the A-ranks since it has a lot to differentiate it from other Psychics in this tier.

Likewise, I think Blacephalon should rise to B, and I think Serperior should rise to B+. I'm putting these two together because they've seen a surprising amount of usage in OLT and are great on various offensive teams. Blacephalon started out as one of those massively overhyped threats and it got so bad that it became massively slept-on. It has an array of different sets, such as two different SubCM sets (SpA boosting and Speed boosting are both pretty good), Specs, which hits like a nuke from orbit (pretty sure basically nothing that doesn't have absurd special bulk, or an outright immunity to Mind Blown, has any real business taking a hit from it) and can cripple potential switchins with Trick (I actually misspelled this just now lmao), or Scarf, which trades a lot of the Specs set's firepower for better revenge killing abilities and... still being able to cripple stuff. Serperior, on the other hand, has been a real pain in the ass to deal with: I find its best and most consistent set to be a SubSeed+Glare set since it does a fantastic job of setting up on bulkier teams whilst being able to cripple faster offensive threats with Glare so it or its teammates can go to town later on, without a fear of being revenge killed. Both should definitely rise a subrank.

Not gonna say anything about Crabominaids since I don't think I'd be able to fit it on any one of my teams, but I firmly disagree with a ranking for Klinklang. I don't mean any disrespect to Omari or anything, but I don't think I could realistically see myself ever using Klinklang when Magnezone is as good as ever and when I could probably name a million and one better things - including currently-unranked stuff like Snorlax and Salamence - to give a Z-move to. It genuinely just seems like Klinklang doesn't particularly appreciate a great deal of metagame trends and is a bit too dependent on Z-moves to break past stuff and sweep. Normally I wouldn't find this to be a huge deal - after all, regular Gyarados's most common set is a Z-move set and that thing is incredible - but it just seems really outclassed by Magearna (which, btw, I agree should rise back to A+) as a Shift Gear user (it has coverage out the ass which lets it pick and choose its checks), which is further amplified by the fact that Magearna has a half-dozen other sets to run to make it a lot more unpredictable. I don't think Klinklang has a place on the VR, and even if it did I'd realistically seeing it fall back into obscurity within a week anyway.

I also agree with Clefable to S. I've already said a lot about this before, but it offers an astounding amount of role compression and its influence in this tier - extreme to the point where things often have to run moves to lure it in and beat it, and to the point where the support it provides can give other top-tier threats (like Heatran) several options both for coverage/status options and Z-moves - gives it more reason to be ranked among the likes of Lando-T and Heatran.

Finally, I'm going to live by Zygarde to S, and I'm going to die by Zygarde to S. With the offense-filled OLT meta, this thing has been crawling around the ladder and has consistently proven itself to be one of the most versatile, unpredictable, and downright terrifying threats in the metagame. Zygarde is a tried-and-true staple of Hyper Offense, whether it be a standard team, Webs, Screens, or Veil, and can find its way onto other teams just as easily. It's something that, though caught in the Lando crossfire by virtue of its typing, deserves to be as prepared for as it currently is. If the billion and one offensive sets Zygarde can run aren't enough proof of how centralizing Zygarde is in this metagame, perhaps the rise of Glare and Toxic sets can prove how good Zygarde is. Zygarde has nearly no counters; even Curse Mega Scizor (something I've used a lot on my own HO teams) wouldn't appreciate the potential for a Dragon Tail Zygarde, since even Dragon Tail variants have seen usage in OLT to deal with the influx of Reuniclus and CurseZor. All in all, I still think Zygarde is beyond-worthy of rising to S: it's a threat with a decidedly limited movepool, but that movepool is just enough for Zygarde to deal with anything that comes its way.

Adding some newer stuff to this post since some stuff has been posted since I initially wrote this and some of it actually seems kinda interesting:

Keldeo to B or B+: Disagree

I don't really think Keldeo is even remotely at the level of Excadrill, Zard X, and Serperior, let alone at the level of things such as Reuniclus, Mega Sableye, Hoopa-U, and especially Zapdos. A good portion of the tier outpaces it and threatens it with irreparable damage, and the likes of Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, Mega Lati@s, and Toxapex aren't really doing Keldeo any favors. Considering most of these things are rising or are already very established, top-tier metagame picks, I think Keldeo is pretty fine in B+.

Swellow from UR to C-: Agree

Now this is how you make an Unranked nomination. A great Speed tier, a great ability, and a downright stellar move in STAB Boomburst are all extremely good things Swellow has going for it in this meta. I can realistically see Swellow being C over C-, because its matchup against Hyper Offense - a playstyle that has had a surge of usage in light of OLT - is pretty damn good. It 2HKOs everything but Magearna with Specs Boomburst, and 2HKOs Magearna (which is easily worn down) with Heat Wave and it isn't a complete momentum sap against Chansey to boot. I can conceivably see myself using Swellow to deal with HO teams because it's not dead weight against bulkier archetypes either, so I definitely think it could have a place on the OUVR for the niches you mentioned.

Anyway, that's all I have to say. Apologies for the loooooong post (I ain't trying spoiler formatting this time because I consistently figure out a way to break it), but I feel like I really needed to post here regardless. And did I mention Zygarde should be in S yet?
 
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In regards to the current VR Noms and the Discussion points.
Avalugg C- -> C
I'm not sure what is more frightening, the fact that Avalugg has a actual niche in the OU meta, or the fact that Omari P was right. Avalugg is good, it has a solid niche on stall and with zygarde being the terror that it is, it really is useful to have it around on a team, it also puts in work against other mons that are rather scary rn such as the gyaradoses (provided that M gyara is not sub) and sturdy is rather useful against mons like serp who have risen back into fame, and of course because of it's merits in the meta, it should Rise.


Reuniclus B+ -> A-
Nothing more to say, mon is fantastic, it may be rare but it is godly, move it up.

I agree that Kingdra should drop, just not to C+. I believe Kingdra should drop to B- where imo it belongs, rain is slowly getting better but even then, kingdra is not that good overall and even as a Special Rain breaker it faces issues with mons like Ashgren, koko and torn being more useful than it, it has a niche, but in no way is this thing as good as other B mons.

Speaking of rain, I believe that Qwilfish should rise to C+, Qwilfish is in the same boat as Kingdra in that it faces competition from other water breakers but it is still useful and with rain having a comeback I believe Qwilfish should be near Kingdra in the tier list as both have similar viability as rain breakers/sweepers. I do have a replay of both Fish and Kingdra putting in work so I will post it here

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-725591540


Likewise, I think Blacephalon should rise to B, and I think Serperior should rise to B+. I'm putting these two together because they've seen a surprising amount of usage in OLT and are great on various offensive teams. Blacephalon started out as one of those massively overhyped threats and it got so bad that it became massively slept-on. It has an array of different sets, such as two different SubCM sets (SpA boosting and Speed boosting are both pretty good), Specs, which hits like a nuke from orbit (pretty sure basically nothing that doesn't have absurd special bulk, or an outright immunity to Mind Blown, has any real business taking a hit from it) and can cripple potential switchins with Twick, or Scarf, which trades a lot of the Specs set's firepower for better revenge killing abilities and... still being able to cripple stuff. Serperior, on the other hand, has been a real pain in the ass to deal with: I find its best and most consistent set to be a SubSeed+Glare set since it does a fantastic job of setting up on bulkier teams whilst being able to cripple faster offensive threats with Glare so it or its teammates can go to town later on, without a fear of being revenge killed. Both should definitely rise a subrank.
I 100% Agree with this and these two mons rising so I'm just gonna poach Dreadfury's post real quick.

Mlop B+ -> B
Yep, this mons sucks ngl, it has it's niches against some HO builds but it does fail to stop araq from getting webs up which is rather sad for the mon, likewise it's niche as a fast mon as been stolen by kazam who is amazing rn, Mlop fails to just do anything in this meta atm, Clef is huge, the Latis are still really good, heatran is running protect more often now, it's just mediocre and it should not be above mons like Charizard X and Diancie and it should not be in the same rank as Mgyarados and Mttar.

Zygarde to S
Yep, not broken but fucking amazing, rise this bloody thing to S already.


Snorlax.
Just gonna echo vso who made several noms about snorlax, mon is good and after trying it out myself I can comfirm that the lax is pr good and should be ranked, just go read his post for the details.

Oh yeah, one last thing.



  • Sharpedo-Mega is literally not even a used Pokemon.
Applies to all of these mons.
Unrank them.
 

This guy should definitely rise. Banded threatens a lot of the fat balance teams running around right now as very few things resist its STAB, and even the few mons that do (Fini, Bulu) still have to take an extremely heavy hit and risk losing their item upon switching into it. It completely nullifies stall considering even helmet Tangrowth can only swtich into Knock Off once and is rendered completely helpless after that, and everything else barring maybe Avalugg is 2HKOd on the swtich. Aqua Jet is great versus a lot of offensive teams considering otherwise potentially threatening sweepers like Volc, speed boosting Blace, and Celebrate Victini are insta-checked by its mere presence.

Reuiniclus rising in usage as of late gives it an extra niche and that regard as well. Overall I just really like this mon as a wallbreaker right now.

C -> C+, possibly higher in the future.
 
Just some brief thoughts on some of the noms rn:

MLop: Keep this B+. Ladder is full of exca/screens and offensive cheese in general, which puts lop in a really favourable spot rn as it fares well against all these. Someone mentioned it doesn't stop araq getting webs, which is true, but the pup encore set takes advantage of it and causes crazy pressure to webs, while the fake out set still fares well as it threatens pretty much all webs mons bar like magearna and manaphy, and still does a chunk to these. B+ isn't too high for it and it's better rn than it's been for a while imo, so keep it where it is.

Zyg to S: I've agreed for this for so long I can't even be bothered to go on about this one, it's got like 15 viable sets and a way around every check bar pdef tangrowth and unaware quag/pyuku (clef doesn't like band iron tail), particularly now dtail exists for curse sciz and acid armour reuni. idk why this hasn't been s for a while considering almost every team runs 2 checks just so they don't autolose to a set.

Clef to S: Not sure I agree with this one, I feel like ppl overrate this a little and I don't think it's on the same level as lando/tran/zyg, although it's probably the best A+ (bar zyg who should rise). I'm not saying it's bad by any means, it's just a little stretch to put it in S with far scarier mons and the long time OU mascot imo.

Reuni: This deserves a rise too, it's had a surge in usage cause it's great atm, and it's rank should change to reflect that.

Crawdaunt: Ya rise this, it's gaining traction cause it blows through common teams really well and has been overlooked as just a tr mon for way too long.

Keld: This has dropped cause it's really sucky atm and should've dropped way before now. Please don't put it back where it was.

Kingdra: This should drop to B- imo, it's generally not even used on rain much cause of ash gren but it's still a solid pick, so it's certainly more viable than C+ territory, especially as rain is doing well rn.

UR mons: There's been a lot of UR noms rn so I just wanted to say how I feel. There are a good chunk of mons that have some viability but not enough to be put here (I think of them in my mind as D rank mons). The aim of this thread is not to rank every little niche mon, just the ones that can be justified on enough teams to have a valid niche. I feel a lot of these noms are for mons that have some viability but not enough to warrant them listing on this thread (some of them I don't even think of as D rank and idk why they're nommed, but whatever) as they feel too niche to be clogging up the lower ranks. Dont really want to do specifics so it doesnt seem like a call out but there's ur mons way more viable than half of these noms (think mandibuzz, chesnaught, etc, that have some solid niches and deserve some love). Only exception is swellow who does do work on quite a few teams but I'm kinda on the fence about it really and don't care much either way. Completely agree with unranking mmane and azelf btw.

So ya, I think that's everything I wanted to cover, idk why I'm still rambling but I just wanted to conclude this somehow.
 
Rotom-W: B -> B+
This thing has been going up in use and viability thanks to both gyarados and pinsir surging in usage during in OLT, 3 things toxapex can't handle while also doing well in keeping momentum. Guaranteeing burns on things helps as well while toxapex can't do that. It does hate lack of recovery and zyg is p much impossible to handle. But these niches help a lot. Also, being great VoltTurn partners with Torn and Lando doesn't hurt either.

Replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-784770814
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-784743458
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-784772640
 
Taking the liberty of posting very shortly after my first post because that Crawdaunt nomination is something that needs a lot, lot, lot more attention:

Crawdaunt to C+ or even higher: VERY, VERY, VERY STRONGLY AGREE

Crawdaunt is a wallbreaker in every sense of the word: courtesy of its great Attack stat, incredible ability, great offensive typing, and a Choice Band boost, Crawdaunt can crack open any nut it can get a hit in on pretty easily. It has crazy strong STAB moves like Crabhammer, Crunch, and Knock Off to blow gaping holes in an opponent's team, OHKOing or 2HKOing almost anything with good prediction, and it has powerful priority in Aqua Jet to help its matchup against offense by revenge killing weakened Landorus-T, Heatran, Blacephalon, and much more. This is a fantastic comparison to Golisopod's role in RU: the threat of its extremely strong priority forces a lot of switches, and, not unlike RU's Golisopod, Crawdaunt loooooves forcing switchins, because a free turn of damage for a wallbreaker of its level is a free turn of basically killing something with moves that utterly dwarf Aqua Jet's base power.

Now, there are two things - two rather recent things, in fact - that I feel should definitely get some attention. I'd first like to bring up this Blunder-certified RMT post by Mimolette since his team is probably the biggest reason for Crawdaunt's rise (and also some further support I have for the Blacephalon rise) and its proven success on the ladder should be a testament to how powerful this team is. As Mimolette says, Crawdaunt can almost effortlessly 2HKO the entire tier with JUST KNOCK OFF. The second thing I would like to bring up is this part of Blunder's own video about some of the ten best non-OU things in OU, where he puts Crawdaunt in his top 3. He provided two of Mimolette's replays to further support why he thinks Crawdaunt is just so damn good. I've also used the team a decent amount on the ladder (I'm nowhere near as good as these guys of course) and it's still astounding when I get Crawdaunt in safely, click Knock Off or Crabhammer, and watch something explode. It's honestly one of this tier's best, albeit more inconsistent, wallbreakers in my experience.

Crawdaunt is amazing. It's definitely a clear cut above C. Hell, it's probably better than almost anything in C+, too. This thing not rising up on the VR would be almost as disappointing as Zygarde not being in S on the VR, because, quite frankly, Crawdaunt is awesome. Use it.
 
Here are some of my thoughts on the VR.
sorry that this won’t look pretty and shit cuz it is my first time doing this.

Clefable to S
Disagree

Although I love this Pokemon and think it is the best rocker atm it just doesnt make the cut for S in my opinion. Losing to Taunt Heatran is a big reason. It also gets trapped by the Steelium set. Heatran is king rn and I think it might outclass Clef as a Rocker because of its offensive power and being able to break balance. Paired w Magnezone CM Clef can be a threat but it just isnt S worthy. Not meta defining enough like Tran/Lando.

Lopunny-Mega to B
Agree

It can be good on ladder because of all the people spamming offense but this thing is not strong enough to break the fat shit like Clef, Lando etc. With Balance being the most prominent playstyle Lop just isnt that good. Better megas like Zam, Maw can be easily used over Lop.

Slowbro-Mega to C+/B-
Agree

I have been using Mega Bro Stall and it is p good ngl. It is a niche pick over Sableye. Walls almost every Physical Attacker. When it hits Mega Evolution it doesnt care if the move is Super Effective or not just eats it up. You don’t even have to Mega Evolve this Pokemon immediately since it has Regen pre-mega. It doesn’t have to be on stall. It can be found on Balance too. P good mega choice overall. Def deserves some more love.

Avalugg to C
Agree

One of the best Zygarde answers that Stall can have. Gets Spin we already know those hazards are mad threatening for stall. Fun Fact: +1 Zygarde Steelium does 60% to Avalugg and you just recover and avalanche to kill em next turn. Defa niche pick on stall. Should move up.

Crawdaunt to C+
Agree

OLT increased the usage of Stall and Crawdaunt just breaks Stall soooo easily. The good switch in is like Tapu Bulu gets crippled w knock off etc. The only problem w this mon is that the mons that is supposed to 2hko can outspeed and ohko it after switching in once. For example, Tapu Bulu. Very Powerful Pokemon w the CB. Def deserved the C+ Rank.

Here are some that weren’t in Discussion Points.

Zygarde to S
I haven’t agreed w anything more in my life.

This Pokemon can get past nearly of all this counters. For example Clef gets bopped by Iron Tail. Bulu gets Glare Sub Coiled on. Lando w/o recovery can not switch in consistently. D Tail can beat Mega Sciz not to mention Zygarde can be paired w Magnezone (s/o to Zone Zam Zyg). Ferrothorn also gets trapped. Tang cannot beat T Spikes + Zygarde and Tangrowth can be taken adavantage of easily or be lured by Protean Gren and get Gunked/Ice Beamed. I kinda think this Pokemon should be suspected. I know people w Lando Clef Bulu losing to Rest Talk Zygarde. People have to spam Zygarde Answers on every team. Def deserves the S Rank in my opinion.

Charizard-Mega-Y to B/B-
Agree

I just love this Pokemon. Unless ur a Pex, Chansey, Mega Lati or a Zygarde (not that good of a switch in since it gets worn down easily and Rest sets aren’t the best) Guess what Mega Lati and Chansey both get trapped by Tar. Pex is like the only good answer. There is like Heatran that can take one hit but cant do much back unless you give them the Flash Fire Boost. Not to mention it walls the standard Eq U Turn Defog HP Ice Scarf Lando. I legit change the Scarf Lando on one team to Rock Slide cuz it was getting smash by Zard Y. It can easily break the balances running around. Sun is p cool allowing it to dodge canes from Torn T and 6-0ing Rain. This Pokemon can deal w Stall if paired w Ttar. It shouldn’t be ranked w mons like Ditto Hydra Mimikyu. It should def be higher pls rise thx.

Tapu Bulu to A+
Agree

SD Synth set is just so good. Kind of a Zygarde answer. So Spammable w Tran. The set that lives Heatran Magma Storm is my favorite as you can just get rid of Heatran w Superpower after an SD Boost. It has a solid place on Balance. Def should be A+.

Edit: I forgot to talk about this but I think Reuni should rise as well. Such a good CM Sweeper. Gotta get those Punishment Landos ready.

Thanks for reading and pls dont kill me thx.
 
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