Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[LORD HELIX 65]

View attachment 146752From A+ ---- AView attachment 146752 This may come as a suprise, but with how the overall meta is shifting to a more offense approach to counteract the extreme power creep this generation, and Z-moves it really doesn't support as much defensive play which is what Mega-Mawile strives for. The thing is defensive based teams can still be used the counter measures to the power creep and z moves automatically cover Mega-Mawile.

Lets go over the more power based offensive teams matchup versus Mawile-Mega. Yes mega mawile is hard to counter for offense and it gives trouble for defensive teams but most offensive teams almost always live a +2 sucker (idk how you even get +2 without dying unless its a non + serp lol) and respond rather easily. Also due to Mega-Mawiles lack of speed its going to have to rely on sucker majority of the time due to its low speed and bulk not strong enough to take on things like specs Greninja, or Tapu-Koko for examples.

Mawile-Mega's prime purpose is to break defensive teams more which I do say, it does that why else would I rate it A but with all of the hazard stack wear down and checks like Landorus-Therian, Heatran, Gliscor, Skarmory that can safely get in depending on the situation, or Mega-Mawile, set its going to be relatively difficult. Most importantly Mega-Mawile has to swords dance up on something and its at risk of taking damage first of all with its not that notable bulk outside of intimade or it could risk being burned by scald for example or thunderwave from chansey, and things like clefable also can just wish pass safely on switch to a check of some sort. If Mega-Mawile has to get in on hazards constantly trying to get a read or oppurtunity for a free swords dance, and even if you do get one without being crippled or damaged by a good amount the checks I said earlier am handle it.

The defensive meta has adapted to the extreme force of this generation and as a result Mega-Mawiles not as potent as people like to think she is. She can break and give trouble for defensive teams, but all she can possibly do is just hope that the opponent doesn't cripple it on switch not put up hazards, and hope the opponent sacrifices the wrong pokemon so a teammate can possibly break.

Now about trick room. She is an extremly good trick room abuser,her being able to invest fully in her defensive output and her outspeeding everything along with monstrous attack is a force to be reckoned with. Helping with the stall matchup is also useful and the checks I listed earlier don't apply due to trick room and its not hard to set that up vs stall, and normally truck room runs healing wish cresselia allowing for reckless play.

All in all Mega-Mawile is definitely a good option, but not as good as everyone says when it comes to her iconic role of a breaker at the very least. She flops vs offensive teams, she can be a pain for defensive teams but manageable, she very well excels on trick room based teams although trick room seems to be a lost art. I think all of this isntm't a trait of a almost s-rank pokemon, of anything A rank at best, but preferably A- for me.

Yep, this one’s going in my cringe compilation. No way Mawile should drop, it’s power and typing are both excellent in the current meta, and with swords dance it becomes a complete wrecking ball. The current meta hasn’t changed enough for it to justify dropping, it still does Mawile things and does it’s job just as well as the A+ rank suggests. Steel/Fairy and well over 600 attack unboosted is something you can’t underestimate.

 

[Katy]

The difference between magearna and Mega-Mawile is that magearna has other ways to combat things like heatran or can even negate it as a threat with shift gear z fightium and serves many more roles and is quite unpredictable. The thing with Mega-Mawile here is she doesn't have much other options other than sucker punch vs faster super effective users or resist vs dark moves.

The thing with Mega Mawile is, you don't know which Set you face, not only the SD 3 Attacks Sucker Set is really popular, the All Out Attack also is with Luresets like Focus Punch to eliminate it's threats in heatran. Mega Mawile might be slow, but it is definetly a mon, which is not only a threat to offense, but also a threat to defensive / stall-ish teams. Huge Power is such a great ability to break thru mons + it has really good abilities prior to it's mega evolution being Hyper Cutter, which prevent an Attack drop from Intimidate and also Intimidate for itself to use on physical Attackers.
Mega Mawile after +2 has to be played around with the Sucker Mindgames yes, but you still have to predict every turn right here and Intimidaters like Lando T being often Choice Locked into other attacks like Defog or Hidden Power [ICE] also helps Mega Mawile to setup or spread instantly attacks or lure another check of it in.
Mega Mawile should not drop to A.

 

[giga drain 69]

The thing with Mega Mawile is, you don't know which Set you face, not only the SD 3 Attacks Sucker Set is really popular, the All Out Attack also is with Luresets like Focus Punch to eliminate it's threats in heatran. Mega Mawile might be slow, but it is definetly a mon, which is not only a threat to offense, but also a threat to defensive / stall-ish teams. Huge Power is such a great ability to break thru mons + it has really good abilities prior to it's mega evolution being Hyper Cutter, which prevent an Attack drop from Intimidate and also Intimidate for itself to use on physical Attackers.
Mega Mawile after +2 has to be played around with the Sucker Mindgames yes, but you still have to predict every turn right here and Intimidaters like Lando T being often Choice Locked into other attacks like Defog or Hidden Power [ICE] also helps Mega Mawile to setup or spread instantly attacks or lure another check of it in.
Mega Mawile should not drop to A.

alright you've convinced me,its prior abilities are problematic and 4 attacks lure is a great bait to allow something else to try to break the team, although I still think its not that good vs the more offensive teams as with my points earlier. Mega-Mawile seems really matchup based which is another problem but happens to every pokemon but to a whole playstyle for your viability to be lowered to a noteable degree is really eh. I don't think mawile is that good due to it being so matchup based and requiring quite a bit of team support but really I could go A (best A rank mon imo) rank or A+(one of the lowest A+ mons imo) its still a good pokemon just not as much as people overhype it to be and most can't really back up their claims solidly whenever they do say its good. Glad we could have a good discussion on Mega-Mawile so we can go over it since its not very talked upon and it has mixed potential in different situations

 

[Mawilover]

Mega Mawile to A-
Strongly Disagree - Mega Mawile should not drop to A in any way, on the contrary.
Currently, the vast majority of Balanced or Bulky Offense teams simply have no answer for it, the only true safe switch to Mega Mawile is Mega Scizor, and in case she does not have Fire Fang, pretty much everyone else does not really stand up to it.
She has masive damage, especially after a Swords Dance, and even if a Pokémon survives the OHKO from +2 Play/Knock or 2HKO from +0 Play/Knock, the Pokémon is probably in the range of anything that comes next.
You can not say that is just Wish pass safely to a check, you're talking as if she's passive like a Toxapex, and the enemy team probably will not have this check.

Her Massive Damage, Don't Believe?

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Celesteela: 320-377 (80.6 - 94.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 735-865 (104.7 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 487-574 (123.6 - 145.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 92 Def Ferrothorn: 294-346 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 379-447 (98.4 - 116.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 240 HP / 156 Def Mew: 475-561 (118.4 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Rotom-Wash: 396-466 (130.6 - 153.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 226-267 (67.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 450-529 (117.4 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 276-325 (91 - 107.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Since we're talking about Swords Dance, I do not know how difficult it is to find an opportunity, because it's too easy: Most of the Walls in the game do not have enough damage to prevent the rise of a Swords Dance (which is almost always followed by an OHKO from +2 Play/Knock), and in some cases, the wall does not have enough damage not even to prevent the rise of several Swords Dances, especially considering its Steel-type part. Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, Ferrothorn and Clefable are just a few examples.

The Low Damage of Walls

0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 144-170 (54.5 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 51-60 (19.3 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (118 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 100-118 (37.8 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 0 Atk Gastrodon Earthquake vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 102-122 (38.6 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 116-138 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 12.9% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 72-85 (27.2 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Magearna Hidden Power Fire vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 114-136 (43.1 - 51.5%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 40-48 (15.1 - 18.1%) -- possible 6HKO
-1 0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 80-96 (30.3 - 36.3%) -- 54.6% chance to 3HKO
-1 0 Atk Tapu Bulu Superpower vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 60-71 (22.7 - 26.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 67-79 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 55-66 (20.8 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 172-204 (65.1 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Note that there are only a few who actually do significant damage to "stop" it, but no OHKO, the exception is Heatran if he uses Magma Storm instead of Lava Plume.
The real Mega Mawile game is to enter the field in front of a passive wall, rise a Swords Dance, and kill whatever comes in or at the least distribute as much damage as possible, and when an offensive Pokémon comes to stop their sweep , you simply switch to a pivot if the offensive pokémon does not die for +2 Sucker Punch. With this strategy, you usually get a kill every time you enter the field, literally breaking and opening holes in the enemy team, as a Wallbreaker should do. In some cases, just put one or two offensive pokémon in a range of +2 Sucker Punch (Not that hard), and you can sweep the enemy team, often thanks to intimidate, Mega Mawile survives impressive hits like Thousand Arrows from Choice Band Zygarde, which allows you to raise a Swords Dance again, or kill with Play Rough.
If you can not deal with the offensive threats of the enemy team, you'll probably be able to break the enemy team enough, making room for another sweeper, and that's what a Wallbreaker does.
If the enemy team has some decent check for it like Magearna or Mega Scizor, you have to choose between making a double switch, or attempting to deal damage to it to make it tick in the future.
Finally, if the enemy team is a Hyper Offense, you may not be able to do so much, but the number of Hyper Offense teams is not absurdly superior to Balanced, Bulky Offense and Stall.
In other words, to finish, Mega Mawile certainly has bad matchups and things to take care of, but they are not enough to justify a drop, as she does her role very well, and the amount of times you're going to cause damage is well greater than the amount of times you will not do anything. There are few battles that the opponent has a decent answer to or uses Hyper Offense, and there are many battles against Balanced, Stall and Bulky Offense that your opponent does not have good answers for it. If the metagame becomes extremely offensive as it was in the time of Pheromosa, its viability will certainly fall, but I believe that this is still far from happening, and we do not know if it will happen.
Mawile should (maybe) rise to S, and not drop to A-

 

[Adapt or Die]

What if I told you there was a mon that could switch into mega-mawile, magearna, tapu bulu, tapu koko, and tapu lele? A mon that could reliably set rocks, block volt switch, and one v. one kyurem-black, zygarde, heatran, lando-t, garchomp, and toxapex? All this mon costs you is wish support, and an open mind.

I present: Mega-Steelix for C-

Steelix with Steelixite
248 hp 152atk 108 spdef adamant nature
Stealth rock
Heavy slam
Earthquake
Ice Fang/Roar/dragon tail

I'm going to go through select matchups. It should be obvious this thing beats bulu and koko, lele locked into not focus blast and magearna lacking fightinium z.

Matchup with Mega-Maw
Offense: 152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 270-318 (107.5 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Defense: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 256-302 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 128-151 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Aggron: 252+ Atk Aggron-Mega Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 210-248 (83.6 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
40 Atk Aggron-Mega Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 164-194 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Commentary: Steelix eats any mega-mawile attack on the switch or at +2 bar the rare brick break and focus punch. Unlike main competitor aggron, stab earthquake guarantees ohko while still being able to invest in special defense.

Matchup with Kyurem Black

Offense: 152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Heavy Slam (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 198-234 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defense: 4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Steelix-Mega: 142-168 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 190-225 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Aggron: 252+ Atk Aggron-Mega Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 152-182 (38.8 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
40 Atk Aggron-Mega Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 120-144 (30.6 - 36.8%) -- 61.4% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Filter Aggron-Mega: 136-162 (39.6 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Commentary: Steelix doesn't hard counter kyurem as it fears subzero slammer, but with the listed evs 2HKOes Heavy Slam while not being 2hkoed by any non-z move. Here again the comparison with aggron shows the benefits of being able to invest in both atk and special defense. Offensive aggron can't 2HKO Kyurem while not taking earth power any better than steelix. Finch's spread isn't even guarantueed to 3HKO kyurem-black. It should be noted neither aggron outdamages roost while steelix does. As such despite not being able to switch into subzero slammer Mega Steelix is actually a better answer to Kyu-B since it can actually you know threaten back.

Matchup with Heatran

Offense: 152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 616-732 (190.7 - 226.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Defense: 252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Steelix-Mega: 306-362 (74.6 - 92.5%) -- Guarantueed 2HKO

Commentary: Obviously Steelix should never switch into heatran, but if your opponent brings in heatran against you on say a predicted stealth rock you can stay in and kill it unless they go for inferno overdrive (which they probably won't do if you have a good fire switchin, which you need). Depending on the matchup, this can be advantageous if say they need tran more than you need steelix. This is a matchup where Steelix truly is ouclassed by aggron as the added power to earthquake isn't needed and aggron takes less damage.

Matchup with ground types (grouped together)

Offense: 152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Ice Fang vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 240-284 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 240-284 (67 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Ice Fang vs. 80 HP / 84 Def Landorus-Therian: 188-224 (55.4 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 148-176 (38.7 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 296-352 (82.6 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defense: 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 156-186 (44.1 - 52.6%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 192-228 (54.3 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 144-170 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
148 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 158-188 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 27.7% chance to 2HKO

Commentary: Steelix beats all these mons on the switch or if they click anything other than earthquake. Obviously steelix should not be switching into them but it doesn't fear earthquake. I won't show aggron calcs here but suffice to say offensive performs a bit better than steelix taking less damage with filter and hitting a bit harder with ice punch. Finch's set loses to all these mons without ice coverage.

Matchup with The Pex

Offense: 152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 224-266 (73.9 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recover

Defense: 0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Steelix-Mega: 98-116 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Aggron: 40 Atk Aggron-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 138-164 (45.5 - 54.1%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Aggron-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 160-190 (52.8 - 62.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Commentary: Here is where stab-quake shows its muscle. Steelix hits defensive mons like toxapex much harder than aggron, and can actually kill the damn thing which bulky aggron can't do.

Replays: I'm using replays from Cookeez Anti-Meta team which peaked at 2017, I've used mega-steelix myself but only to like mid 1700s, so his opponent quality is quite a bit better

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-772557562
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-773279548
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-772155766
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-772557562

Closing arguments:
I think mega-aggron has demonstrated the value of a mega bulky physical steel type and they mostly do the same things. Set rocks counter some of the hardest hitters in the tier. The question is can they both be ranked. I think so because a) Steelix differentiates itself from Aggron with its ground typing and b) Steelix is in my opinion better than Aggron. Steelix's distinction over aggron is being able to block volt switch from mage, and shit on tapu koko. Also stab quake hits a lot harder than any of Aggron's sets, while the extra poundage ups heavy slam in some matches. This allows Steelix along with its superior special defense stat to run an optimized build that allows it to take super effective special hits as well as offensively EVed aggron while hitting much harder than finch's specially defensive aggron. Last but certainly not least Steelix's normal form takes damage much better than normal aggron making it easier to get into the battle and removing the need to lead with protect. In conclusion, rank the big worm its not outclassed.

 

[Oddessy]

What if I told you there was a mon that could switch into mega-mawile, magearna, tapu bulu, tapu koko, and tapu lele? A mon that could reliably set rocks, block volt switch, and one v. one kyurem-black, zygarde, heatran, lando-t, garchomp, and toxapex? All this mon costs you is wish support, and an open mind.

I present: Mega-Steelix for C-

View attachment 146774
Steelix with Steelixite
248 hp 152atk 108 spdef adamant nature
Stealth rock
Heavy slam
Earthquake
Ice Fang/Roar/dragon tail

I'm going to go through select matchups. It should be obvious this thing beats bulu and koko, lele locked into not focus blast and magearna lacking fightinium z.

Matchup with Mega-Maw
Offense: 152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 270-318 (107.5 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Defense: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 256-302 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 128-151 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Aggron: 252+ Atk Aggron-Mega Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 210-248 (83.6 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
40 Atk Aggron-Mega Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 164-194 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Commentary: Steelix eats any mega-mawile attack on the switch or at +2 bar the rare brick break and focus punch. Unlike main competitor aggron, stab earthquake guarantees ohko while still being able to invest in special defense.

Matchup with Kyurem Black

Offense: 152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Heavy Slam (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 198-234 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defense: 4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Steelix-Mega: 142-168 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 190-225 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Aggron: 252+ Atk Aggron-Mega Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 152-182 (38.8 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
40 Atk Aggron-Mega Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 120-144 (30.6 - 36.8%) -- 61.4% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Filter Aggron-Mega: 136-162 (39.6 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Commentary: Steelix doesn't hard counter kyurem as it fears subzero slammer, but with the listed evs 2HKOes Heavy Slam while not being 2hkoed by any non-z move. Here again the comparison with aggron shows the benefits of being able to invest in both atk and special defense. Offensive aggron can't 2HKO Kyurem while not taking earth power any better than steelix. Finch's spread isn't even guarantueed to 3HKO kyurem-black. It should be noted neither aggron outdamages roost while steelix does. As such despite not being able to switch into subzero slammer Mega Steelix is actually a better answer to Kyu-B since it can actually you know threaten back.

Matchup with Heatran

Offense: 152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 616-732 (190.7 - 226.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Defense: 252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Steelix-Mega: 306-362 (74.6 - 92.5%) -- Guarantueed 2HKO

Commentary: Obviously Steelix should never switch into heatran, but if your opponent brings in heatran against you on say a predicted stealth rock you can stay in and kill it unless they go for inferno overdrive (which they probably won't do if you have a good fire switchin, which you need). Depending on the matchup, this can be advantageous if say they need tran more than you need steelix. This is a matchup where Steelix truly is ouclassed by aggron as the added power to earthquake isn't needed and aggron takes less damage.

Matchup with ground types (grouped together)

Offense: 152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Ice Fang vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 240-284 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 240-284 (67 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Ice Fang vs. 80 HP / 84 Def Landorus-Therian: 188-224 (55.4 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 148-176 (38.7 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 296-352 (82.6 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defense: 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 156-186 (44.1 - 52.6%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 192-228 (54.3 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 144-170 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
148 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 158-188 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 27.7% chance to 2HKO

Commentary: Steelix beats all these mons on the switch or if they click anything other than earthquake. Obviously steelix should not be switching into them but it doesn't fear earthquake. I won't show aggron calcs here but suffice to say offensive performs a bit better than steelix taking less damage with filter and hitting a bit harder with ice punch. Finch's set loses to all these mons without ice coverage.

Matchup with The Pex

Offense: 152+ Atk Steelix-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 224-266 (73.9 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recover

Defense: 0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Steelix-Mega: 98-116 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Aggron: 40 Atk Aggron-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 138-164 (45.5 - 54.1%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Aggron-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 160-190 (52.8 - 62.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Commentary: Here is where stab-quake shows its muscle. Steelix hits defensive mons like toxapex much harder than aggron, and can actually kill the damn thing which bulky aggron can't do.

Replays: I'm using replays from Cookeez Anti-Meta team which peaked at 2017, I've used mega-steelix myself but only to like mid 1700s, so his opponent quality is quite a bit better

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-772557562
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-773279548
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-772155766
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-772557562

Closing arguments:
I think mega-aggron has demonstrated the value of a mega bulky physical steel type and they mostly do the same things. Set rocks counter some of the hardest hitters in the tier. The question is can they both be ranked. I think so because a) Steelix differentiates itself from Aggron with its ground typing and b) Steelix is in my opinion better than Aggron. Steelix's distinction over aggron is being able to block volt switch from mage, and shit on tapu koko. Also stab quake hits a lot harder than any of Aggron's sets, while the extra poundage ups heavy slam in some matches. This allows Steelix along with its superior special defense stat to run an optimized build that allows it to take super effective special hits as well as offensively EVed aggron while hitting much harder than finch's specially defensive aggron. Last but certainly not least Steelix's normal form takes damage much better than normal aggron making it easier to get into the battle and removing the need to lead with protect. In conclusion, rank the big worm its not outclassed.

I am going to have to disagree with this nomination, especially the notion of Steelix being better than Aggron. For one, Mega Aggron checks every mon you listed besides Tapu Koko much better than Steelix, as it’s Filter Abilty let’s it take Mawile’s Fire Fang Tapu Bulu’s Superpower for some examples, much better. Checking Tapu Koko isn’t a huge selling point for Steelix considering most stall teams have Chansey.
Also I think it’s a bit unfair to say Aggron loses to Ground-types without Ice Punch when Mega Steelix also loses to them without Ice Punch. In fact, Aggron is much better at dealing with them thanks to it’s higjer attack and Filter.
Lastly, Mega Aggron can also situationally check Heatran thanks to Filter and Earthquake. Sure, Mega Steelix can situationally check a Toxapex too, but this isn’t a huge concern for a stall team.
In conclusion Steelix should not be ranked because of Aggrons better bulk with Filter and the fact that none of Steelix’s benefits aren’t replicated by a Stall team.

 

[Umlaug]

I am going to have to disagree with this nomination, especially the notion of Steelix being better than Aggron. For one, Mega Aggron checks every mon you listed besides Tapu Koko much better than Steelix, as it’s Filter Abilty let’s it take Mawile’s Fire Fang Tapu Bulu’s Superpower for some examples, much better. Checking Tapu Koko isn’t a huge selling point for Steelix considering most stall teams have Chansey.
Also I think it’s a bit unfair to say Aggron loses to Ground-types without Ice Punch when Mega Steelix also loses to them without Ice Punch. In fact, Aggron is much better at dealing with them thanks to it’s higjer attack and Filter.
Lastly, Mega Aggron can also situationally check Heatran thanks to Filter and Earthquake. Sure, Mega Steelix can situationally check a Toxapex too, but this isn’t a huge concern for a stall team.
In conclusion Steelix should not be ranked because of Aggrons better bulk with Filter and the fact that none of Steelix’s benefits aren’t replicated by a Stall team.

I advocate for steelix instead of aggron to check mawile because the difference filter makes is only about 10% max, and steelix can actually ohko mawile, therefore aggron has to take 2 punches before it kills mawile and therefore takes more damage than lix overall.

Checking tapu koko is usually very easy but you do run into taunt sets and very rare CM sets, and even if you dont, chansey isn't going to enjoy switching into volt switch 24/7 so it's nice to block that.

It can become harder to check toxapex in the late game because of regenerator cores infinitely switching, but also because youre giving up mega sableye you give up the right to easily switch in to toxapex's toxic or spikes so at the very least steelix has that killing power over aggron.

 

[Finchinator]

Enough. We are not dropping Mega Mawile to A or A-. The arguments against it are either overly linear, flawed, or simply neglecting significant metagame considerations.

Mega Mawile is the best mega evolution in the tier right now. It has virtually no hard counters, gets in safely enough to carry its weight against offense more often than not, and it does that and then so much more against balanced and you cannot refute any of that.

Any future discussion of Mega Mawile dropping for the next couple slates is hereby forbidden.

 

[Adapt or Die]

I am going to have to disagree with this nomination, especially the notion of Steelix being better than Aggron. For one, Mega Aggron checks every mon you listed besides Tapu Koko much better than Steelix, as it’s Filter Abilty let’s it take Mawile’s Fire Fang Tapu Bulu’s Superpower for some examples, much better. Checking Tapu Koko isn’t a huge selling point for Steelix considering most stall teams have Chansey.
Also I think it’s a bit unfair to say Aggron loses to Ground-types without Ice Punch when Mega Steelix also loses to them without Ice Punch. In fact, Aggron is much better at dealing with them thanks to it’s higjer attack and Filter.
Lastly, Mega Aggron can also situationally check Heatran thanks to Filter and Earthquake. Sure, Mega Steelix can situationally check a Toxapex too, but this isn’t a huge concern for a stall team.
In conclusion Steelix should not be ranked because of Aggrons better bulk with Filter and the fact that none of Steelix’s benefits aren’t replicated by a Stall team.

My entire post made sure to make constant comparisons to Mega-Aggron which is a deservedly ranked pokemon, to show that more or less steelix can do just about everything Mega-Aggron can do while also excelling in some matchups Mega-Aggron doesn't. Mega-Aggron is certainly better than Steelix in some matchups, which I think I addressed and I'm not calling for an aggron drop whatsoever (if anything aggron should rise).

The point of Steelix over Aggron though is blocking volt switch, and stab-quake. Stab-quake lets you Ohko Mawile, meaning if you'll actually take less damage. Stab-quake makes it so you don't have to choose between special defense and attack as for all meaningful matchups stab-quake hits harder than fully invested aggron's earthquake and heavy slam is usually a base power higher against some heavier opponents. Actually beating Kyurem-Black is a big deal even if its harder to switch into.

I'm not saying Steelix is indisputably better than Aggron, just that it is a better mon to me. It certainly has its downsides in comparison Aggron, namely taking neutral damage from grass and ice moves, but with an optimized set is either hitting a lot harder or being a bit bulkier while still hitting harder in some matchups. Also it is always bulkier against moves that aren't supereffective. What it really comes down to for me is role compression. Steelix compresses more roles than Aggron while doing slighly worse in some matchups. I think we can rank both.

Updated:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-824819009

I think this battle does a good job of showing the value of being able to block volt-turn. Mega-steelix wins me this battle: getting a lot of damage on lando-t so I take it down pretty quick, blocking volt turn a few times and forcing choiced koko into dazzling gleam so chansey can actually get a softboiled off, getting the effective ko on kartana as it can no longer switchin, and setting rocks so that koko and mage get worn down over time and not just my team. Ground type is a valuable role on a stall team and steelix compresses that role and aggron's mega-bulky-steel role into one. Also I'm calm reuni for lele, couldn't just sweep with it as it might first appear.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

I could get behind Mega Steelix being ranked. It still checks pretty much everything Mega Aggron does, just slightly worse in exchange for STAB earthquake, being able to check koko, and tanking neutral special hits better and neutral physical hits marginally better. While Mega Aggron does have the excellent ability in filter and probably better defensive typing, mega steelix's typing and ability is more threatening offensively, and if ttar sets up sand, you will hit stuff hard. I think C-, a rank below mega aggron, is fair.

 

[Ske]

Alright i haven't posted here in a long time, but i want to make a couple nom's

Mega Latios A->B+
This mon has gotton alot worse imo, with the rise of Zam & Gliscor being less common a while back it started to run Draco over Ice Beam alot more, Nowadays Draco is the prefered set to hit Alakazam & Ash Greninja & without Ice Beam it cant reliably check Tapu Bulu well, Ice Beam also has problems as Ash Greninja can switch into any attack thats not Earthquake & with Ash Greninja being so good rn & Heatran running Toxic alot more cuz of Zam & Steelium-Z being still a solid set for Nuking Zygarde I think the meta has not been kind to it & it should drop, another reason is that i think Latias is a better option rn honestly, its more reliable at checking Heatran, its utility is so nice too, you can T-wave mons such as Zam & Ash Greninja & Latias is a pretty solid defogger, Latias is just a more useful mon all-together atm & with them being so similar i dont think it should be in the same ranking as Latias.

Gliscor A- > A
Gliscor is really good atm, it has become one of the best Stealth Rockers in tier alongside Heatran with its Toxic Roost set, Toxic Gliscor is just a amazing set, checking very good mons atm such as Mawile, Heatran, even Zygarde to a extent & Toxicing Tapu Bulu, Tangrowth & Taunt Toxic is a pretty underrated set that nobody wants to face, Alot of teams are seriously troubled by Gliscor & it provides so much for a team & i feel like A is a better placement for it.​

 

[SBPC]

Nominating Zapdos from B+ > A-

Zapdos is incredibly strong in this current meta, having the ability to run a Physically Defensive set and be one of the best pivots and defoggers in this entire tier. His ability to pressure everything physical in the tier with status via discharge or static paralysis means that every mon in the tier has to be weary of losing their speed and even worse, being hax'd through paralysis. His ability to both defog and pressure other defoggers due to discharge damage is absolutely substantial, and running HP Ice allows him to lure ground types wanting to come in free on discharge and take possibly detrimental amounts of damage. Not to mention this Kanto Bird has access to roost, allowing him to shrug off damage and stay in battle for all the user wishes.

Some Notable Matchups

Heatran:
Zapdos has incredible bulk and a defensive typing that allows him to take on heatran in a substantial amount of situations, as well as pressure him out and clean his rocks with relative ease.

Greninja:
Non-Ice Beam Greninja doesn't even come close to breaking zapdos, and Ash-Greninja without specs is barely able to do over 50 with Hydro Pump, while Zapdos himself can return with a singular discharge and whip this frog back into the PC Box.

Mega Mawile:
Due to zapdos's astounding Electric/Flying typing, Mawile's Iron Head can be switched in on for practically free and have the chance of putting paralysis via static, as well as no speed investment still allows zapdos to put a third of Mawile's health down with a discharge. This matchup is still very much leaned in mawile's favor due to her damage being absolutely massive, but with some proper prediction and a little luck zapdos can shake this beast and sometimes even win the matchup.

Vs Ground:
Assuming you're running HP Ice, Zapdos can lure in a majority of ground types and slap them on the head with a nice cold surprise. This allows zapdos to 2hko some rather important ground types, including the onmipresent Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, and Gliscor.

Excadrill:
Seperate from the rest of the ground types, due to that Zapdos must run Heat Wave to truly check this pokemon, and must always be weary of rock slide. If excadrill is caught without rock slide, it is for sure walled by zapdos and either killed by heat wave or slowly popped to death by Hp Ice.

 

[Marigold]

Nominating Zapdos from B+ > A-

Zapdos is incredibly strong in this current meta, having the ability to run a Physically Defensive set and be one of the best pivots and defoggers in this entire tier. His ability to pressure everything physical in the tier with status via discharge or static paralysis means that every mon in the tier has to be weary of losing their speed and even worse, being hax'd through paralysis. His ability to both defog and pressure other defoggers due to discharge damage is absolutely substantial, and running HP Ice allows him to lure ground types wanting to come in free on discharge and take possibly detrimental amounts of damage. Not to mention this Kanto Bird has access to roost, allowing him to shrug off damage and stay in battle for all the user wishes.

Some Notable Matchups

Heatran:
Zapdos has incredible bulk and a defensive typing that allows him to take on heatran in a substantial amount of situations, as well as pressure him out and clean his rocks with relative ease.

Greninja:
Non-Ice Beam Greninja doesn't even come close to breaking zapdos, and Ash-Greninja without specs is barely able to do over 50 with Hydro Pump, while Zapdos himself can return with a singular discharge and whip this frog back into the PC Box.

Mega Mawile:
Due to zapdos's astounding Electric/Flying typing, Mawile's Iron Head can be switched in on for practically free and have the chance of putting paralysis via static, as well as no speed investment still allows zapdos to put a third of Mawile's health down with a discharge. This matchup is still very much leaned in mawile's favor due to her damage being absolutely massive, but with some proper prediction and a little luck zapdos can shake this beast and sometimes even win the matchup.

Vs Ground:
Assuming you're running HP Ice, Zapdos can lure in a majority of ground types and slap them on the head with a nice cold surprise. This allows zapdos to 2hko some rather important ground types, including the onmipresent Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, and Gliscor.

Excadrill:
Seperate from the rest of the ground types, due to that Zapdos must run Heat Wave to truly check this pokemon, and must always be weary of rock slide. If excadrill is caught without rock slide, it is for sure walled by zapdos and either killed by heat wave or slowly popped to death by Hp Ice.

I would like to disagree with this nomination's reasoning and argument. One of the most important things to do when nominating a Pokemon is explaining why it is better in the metagame now than before, but all has been stated above is either common knowledge that isn't anything new or even worse, misinformation (I will touch on this later). Physdef Zapdos has been checking all the things it usually does and if anything is getting worse, as metagame-defining fat sets like Spdef Bulu or fast SubToxic Suicune keep getting better and this just hurts Zapdos' viability if anything. As for breakers, the rise of sets like Rockium Garchomp and prominent rock setters such as offensive Heatran or Mega/Bulky Tyranitar are bad news for our electric bird friend.

In terms of the scenarios you pointed out, they aren't lining up with how these play out in practice. Heatran is notoriously one of the rock setters with an advantageous matchup vs Zapdos, outpacing bulky sets and using several combinations of tech like magma storm + taunt, toxic, or even just firium z to consistently trap and/or break through Zapdos. Modest Heatran becoming a common set worsens this matchup even further, and Zapdos cannot retaliate with much outside of using discharge (which doesn't even 4hko max HP fast Heatran, let alone SpDef Tran).

Regarding Greninja, non-transformed specs can just 2hko with either STAB and doesn't even need ice beam to deal with Zapdos. This is not a good matchup for Zapdos, as it cannot switch in reliably. If it's a protean Greninja, then good night.

Mega Mawile rarely runs steel STAB and mostly elects to run Play Rough (which is a clean 2hko on the switch or OHKO after a Swords Dance), and Heat Wave in return requires chipping the Mega Mawile for anything between 30-45% of its HP to reliably revenge kill depending on the HP invest Mawile runs. Zapdos also does not appreciate attempting to switch into Knock Off for the most part, as it is very reliant on Leftovers or the occasional Helmet to do its job properly. This is a shaky matchup at best for Zapdos.

Regarding ground types in general, Zapdos rarely runs HP ice on defog sets (Heat Wave is typically the coverage of choice to reliably defog vs Ferrothorn, one of the hazard setters that defog Zapdos has a good matchup against). I agree that HP ice sets are nice on fast Zapdos, but this is held back by having substantially less bulk and having poor matchups vs some targets of HP ice, namely spdef Zygarde and Garchomp (which outspeeds and threatens to KO). Excadrill is also a matchup that is oddly disadvantageous in practice, as the sash rocks Exca lead typically carries toxic and runs max speed to force a"keep up rocks vs Zapdos or kill it" scenario. There is also Hippowdon to consider, which HP ice does negligible damage to. Even after all that, this "it beats some ground types" point isn't anything new and doesn't indicate a rise or drop for Zapdos, nothing has really changed in this regard.

I encourage you to do damage calculations on the damage calc website to understand matchups before making assumptions about them. Zapdos is not as bulky as you make it out to be in practice, but is certainly a nice pick in OU as reflective of B+. I also encourage you to approach metagame analysis outside of "specific 1v1 situations in a vacuum", and take the time to see the game from a practical perspective. Unless something drastic like a huge uptick in offensive rocks Mamoswine usage occurs or people find that Hawlucha is absurd again, I don't see Zapdos rising or falling at the moment.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

Nominating Zapdos from B+ > A-

Zapdos is incredibly strong in this current meta, having the ability to run a Physically Defensive set and be one of the best pivots and defoggers in this entire tier. His ability to pressure everything physical in the tier with status via discharge or static paralysis means that every mon in the tier has to be weary of losing their speed and even worse, being hax'd through paralysis. His ability to both defog and pressure other defoggers due to discharge damage is absolutely substantial, and running HP Ice allows him to lure ground types wanting to come in free on discharge and take possibly detrimental amounts of damage. Not to mention this Kanto Bird has access to roost, allowing him to shrug off damage and stay in battle for all the user wishes.

Some Notable Matchups

Heatran:
Zapdos has incredible bulk and a defensive typing that allows him to take on heatran in a substantial amount of situations, as well as pressure him out and clean his rocks with relative ease.

Greninja:
Non-Ice Beam Greninja doesn't even come close to breaking zapdos, and Ash-Greninja without specs is barely able to do over 50 with Hydro Pump, while Zapdos himself can return with a singular discharge and whip this frog back into the PC Box.

Mega Mawile:
Due to zapdos's astounding Electric/Flying typing, Mawile's Iron Head can be switched in on for practically free and have the chance of putting paralysis via static, as well as no speed investment still allows zapdos to put a third of Mawile's health down with a discharge. This matchup is still very much leaned in mawile's favor due to her damage being absolutely massive, but with some proper prediction and a little luck zapdos can shake this beast and sometimes even win the matchup.

Vs Ground:
Assuming you're running HP Ice, Zapdos can lure in a majority of ground types and slap them on the head with a nice cold surprise. This allows zapdos to 2hko some rather important ground types, including the onmipresent Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, and Gliscor.

Excadrill:
Seperate from the rest of the ground types, due to that Zapdos must run Heat Wave to truly check this pokemon, and must always be weary of rock slide. If excadrill is caught without rock slide, it is for sure walled by zapdos and either killed by heat wave or slowly popped to death by Hp Ice.

Alright I'll just come straight out the gate and say hell no. Nearly everything you said was unremarkable or wrong. For starters the physically defensive set is pretty mediocre at best and really mainly used for hax, like let's be honest here it's pretty much 99% used for hax. People might try and pussyfoot around and say it's for lucha but you're literally running discharge + static like let's not bullshit here. It's def isnt evne that useful for a def wall.
And "one of the best pivots and defoggers in this entire tier. " , like come on dude. Not only is this not remotely true, it's kind of a bad pivot, and there are far better ones. Also.. like there are so many other reliable and better defogers... I won't list them all but literally just do !ds defog, roost and ull get a shit ton of them, many much better than zapdos for a def defog set. roost + defog is not unique Idk why you felt compelled to mention that.

" His ability to pressure everything physical in the tier with status via discharge or static paralysis means that every mon in the tier has to be weary of losing their speed and even worse, being hax'd through paralysis." ya thats it. you're just going for hax. just say that.

". His ability to both defog and pressure other defoggers due to discharge damage is absolutely substantial, and running HP Ice allows him to lure ground types wanting to come in free on discharge and take possibly detrimental amounts of damage. " - actually it depends on the defogger, also running hp ice is like an electric mon staple, you're not luring shit. and pressuring requires damage output, which this hax set is not about. I know yall love skilless playstyles but come on, the zap set yall are running is pretty cowardly and more importantly nonoptimal and dumb.

 

[MFJK]

Hello, wanted to give my thoughts on some of the recent discussion points which interested me.

- Starting with Mega Garchomp, I definitely agree that this mon is currently ranked way too low for what it is actually capable of, even seeing some usage in smogon tour, as well as the later stages of snake. I think one factor that makes Mega Garchomp more effective is the rise in effectiveness of Garchomp itself, meaning people will almost always expect Z-Stone Edge Garchomp which can allow it to catch some pokemons off-guard. This mon absolutely obliterates typical bulky offense cores (Tang + Tran / Tran + Rotom-W / whatever), making it a really good choice for teams that don't have a mega. Still not the easiest to fit on teams / build around, but that shouldn't hold it back from rising to C+.

- I also agree with Clefable dropping to A-. Clefable is still a decent mon, as it's still a good rocker as well as a good wincon with Calm Mind but overall, it struggles a lot more to actually find a place onto teams in this really bulky offense-oriented meta. Most teams just opt to run different hazard setters such as Heatran, M-Tyranitar and Gliscor being some notable ones, which all have traits distinguishing them from Clefable as a hazard setter of choice (all 3 can pressure Tornadus-T in a way, they're not as passive, they help vs. some specific metagame threats, etc. etc.). It still finds a place into some teams but overall it isn't as relevant as things like M-Ttar in A and should thus drop a subrank.

- Also agree with Gliscor rising. SR Toxic Gliscor is absolutely fantastic as a hazard setter which offer amazing utility by checking various threats and spreading toxic which can be especially useful against Tornadus-T, Landorus-T and Zygarde. I've had a lot of fun messing with that mon and cores like Gliscor + Ferro which just fits pretty well on a lot of teams. Also, SD Gliscor is still pretty scary right now, being able to set-up easily on a number of mons and overload common defensive cores with appropriate support (it doesn't even need that much support) is pretty good. Overall, it distinguishes itself from other A- mons and could definitely rise to A.

- This one's a bit shakier and I'm standing almost halfway between it dropping to B+ or staying in A-. Of course, there's no denying that Mega Latios has seen some brighter days in the past. It faces a lot of competition as a mega slot and M-Zam and M-Mawile are overall solidder options, along with some metagame trends which do not favor it such as the rise in usage of Celesteela and M-Tyranitar, as well as Ash-Greninja being at a peak right now. However, it still finds a place into some teams, with options like Mag still being relatively good. Also, I don't think it's necessarily worse than some other mons in A- as I rank it pretty much equal in viability as pokemons like M-Scizor or Tapu Koko. It's also definitely better and more consistent than a lot of the pokemons in B+. Overall, I can definitely see why it could drop to B+ and wouldn't necessarily mind if that happens, but I think it should stay A- for the time being.

--​

​

Now, some noms of my own.

B+ -> A-

This past month or so has seen a real insurgence in Zard X usage and I think that it rising to A- is a continuation of it. The sheer amount of pressure it applies on common structures and its ability to take advantage of a lot of threats including Grass-types as well as Landorus-T is amazing. Both DD and 3 Atks are fantastic sets, the former being an effective cleaner, and the latter maximizing its wallbreaking capapbilities by allowing it to hit more threats. I know that I am not supposed to only say what a pokemon does when nominating it but I think that all these characteristics paired with its typing and the impact it has on the current meta just puts it a level above everything in B+, and even some things in A- as well. However, since A would probably be too much, I am nominating it to A- for the time being.

B -> B+

Hydreigon is another pokemon that has been rising ever since OLT. I know that it only recently rose to B but this mon is just really consistent and provides some really good utility, making it quite easy for it to fit into common team structures right now. I feel like a lot of the pokemons in B are way more situational and overall just not as effective as Hydreigon, putting it a level above those. It fits better among the B+ mons like Zapdos, Serp, Hoopa-U and M-Heracross which are for the most part equal in viability as Hydreigon.

B- -> B

This pokemon has been nominated multiple times in the past and I am nominating it, yet again, for a rise to B. Jirachi definitely isn't that common right now and although it is't as dominant as, say, Rotom-W, Magearna or even Tapu Fini on common defensive cores found on bulky offense, it definitely finds a place on some teams and has started to be explored a little more (an example is that ABR used a Jirachi on both of his smogtour playoffs SM games). Its best and most common set is the SR Healing Wish set which is really useful for the role compression it provides, fulfilling the roles of a rocker, psychic resist and momentum grabber all at once which is great for teams that need it. Choice Scarf Rachi is also pretty good for its ability to use fast healing wish, check psychic-types and even serve as a revenge killer, which can be great on some teams. Overall, it's not as consistent as other common options (which is the case for most B rank mons anyways) but it definitely is superior to a lot of stuff in B-.

Here are both of ABR's smogon tour playoffs SM games which do a good job at showcasing Jirachi in what it's supposed to do:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-409828
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-410660

That's all I got for now, thanks for reading!

 

[Katy]

Gliscor to A

Gliscor has alot of utility to offer, some Sets are really annoying to deal with as well as capable of U-Turning out into another Teammate, Taunt as another weapon and also offensive Sets like SD, Facade, EQ and Roost can work.
Gliscor loves the current metagame as it is able check alot currently.


Hydreigon to B+

I feel B+ reflects this pokemon more to be honest, Choice Specs is annoying to swit6chin to unless you have a specially defensive pokemon, which is able to take both Stabs very well, Tapu Bulu and also Tangrowth are no 100% Safe Options either, cause of Flash Cannon / Flamethrower options, can still U-Turn out to bring another Mon in on a check to Hydreigon and can clean up later, Speed tier also is fantastic, with 98 being able to outpace alot of 95 base speed threats like Lele, Kyurem Black and Zygarde.


Jirachi to B

I used Jiracho alot recently, mostly Scarf and also the Specially Defensive Wish Support Rocks Set, both Sets worked pretty well, bein able to check Tapu lele, Mega Alakazam and other threats which have a ton of Usage recently.
I think and feel B is a better placement for it.

 

[Colonel M]

I think the topic is focusing a bit too hard on paralysis. While the responses weren't necessarily bad per se, let's keep more on track with why the Zapdos nomination was bad (or good) and less about how using paralysis suddenly makes you a bad player (which it really doesn't but I acknowledge that the strategy in tandem with flinches feels "cheap").

If you must argue it, take it to PMs with each other.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I think the topic is focusing a bit too hard on paralysis. While the responses weren't necessarily bad per se, let's keep more on track with why the Zapdos nomination was bad (or good) and less about how using paralysis suddenly makes you a bad player (which it really doesn't but I acknowledge that the strategy in tandem with flinches feels "cheap").

If you must argue it, take it to PMs with each other.

It's kind of hard separating the 2 when that's the main reason he and others are running it. He literally admitting to relying on it and not caring that it was cheap and pathetic. Like we cannot ignore that as the the sole overwhelmingly main reason people use the set.

 

[MetaNite]

Zapdos is useful outside of paralysis though as it can counter common SR setters and can be tailored to one’s need with either Heat Wave or Hidden Power Ice. The main use of Zapdos is Defog, not paralysis, though its a nice add on. It can counter Ferrothorn, non-Rockium Lando, M-Scizor, Hawlucha, Celesteela, etc. The wide range of Pokemon it can counter means even with some shifting trends going against it (rise of Stone Edge using sets) it still seems comfortable where it is on the rankings. Definitely not a rise for me.

 

[BlueLobster]

Paralysis aside, every reason to use Zap is getting less significant. Lucha is dropping, both gyaras are dropping, torn t is becoming the go to choice as balances defogger ahead of it, the sr setting lando sets (def and fly z, ignoring rockium since that one bops zap anyway) are becoming less prominent (which was the big reason hp ice zap was a thing earlier in the meta), and therefore the role that this fills is becoming predominantly less "zap beats this" and more and more "zap has static", hence the shit show above. I've noticed much more recently that the opposing zaps do literally nothing when previously much more useful due to the abundance of stuff it helped with. You can say it beats rock setters but the best one (tran) is beating it unless you hax it with discharge so its really not doing the same job it did before, and now it tends to not even have hp ice so good luck V the other setters like lando/chomp who aren't even afraid of you anymore. I have no idea why this was nommed for a raise tbh when the meta is clearly worse for it.

About this slate:

Clefable from A to A-: Agreed, the meta is only getting worse for this, tran everywhere and all. Doesn't help that it's too passive to keep rocks up efficiently and it's a horrifically poor zyg check (band literally needs <10% chip to bop using tarrows, let alone iron tail). This in A is just plain wrong imo and I wouldn't be surprised to see it drop further in the near future, let's get the ball rolling now.
Gyarados from B+ to B: Disagree. While cheese has been on the decline since OLT, the meta is still in a place where this can do huge damage to balance, with fat grasses often used as the only water resist cause of gren, which this conveniently bops with fly z. I think gyara is kind of overlooked outside of cheese/HO and is just a bit better than the B rank.
Mega Gyarados from B to B-: Agreed, since unlike it's regular counterpart can't really break balance with bulu/tang everywhere, so outside of the declining HO isn't really great.
Kingdra from B to B- and Qwilfish from C to C-: Agreed. Not only is rain kinda shitty in this meta but these mons have become a rarity on it with most builds opting for ash gren instead.
Serp to A-: Agreed. This thing can steamroll teams amazingly well once it's checks are removed, and that damned sub seed set can just hax through its counters half the time anyway. I've been enjoying scarf serp as well, a really underrated set that lures in stuff like scarf lando and weavile to try to revenge it, which it promptly bops with a +2 (or even +4) leaf storm which by then can presumably break through everything else as well unless they have a healthy 4X resist in which case they probably should've gone to that before the mon you just bopped anyway.
Shuckle to UR: Been waiting for this for ages, garbage passive mon that's niche does not justify using such crap. It's not like webs can't afford a rocker and there's so many rockers that can take advantage of webs anyway even if you don't want to go dual leads (such as z move lando or even the lead one for that matter and chomp). So yeah, drop this shit. Oh and PSA, red card shuckle is bad, idk where it came from but this has no niche and is begging to be taunted so stop using it ladder.

 

[War Incarnate]

Mega Garchomp: C- -> B-
The speed drop after mega evolving may sound like a reason to not use Mega Garchomp in OU, but a great ability in Sand Force allows it to carve itself a niche in OU. The meta here is sifting into an offensive approach, and because of its wickedsick 170 physical attack, I think it bodes fairly well in the OU as it is now and shouldn't be dropped down to UR. The 115 physical defense stat on this pokemon allows it to tank most hits, and combined with its 108 HP stat means you have a bulky physical attacker. While its speed is somewhat problematic, you have great attacking stats as well as defending stats across the board. It deals with Magnezone really well, and while Magearna can be threatening, it outspeeds it by a good extent and deals with it really well. Now, it can't really aim for anything higher than a B- as a 92 speed stat is solid, but not really enough to outspeed the majority of the metagame. It also has to rely on Tyranitar's Sand Stream for its Sand Force to activate, so pokemon such as Pelipper and Mega Charizard Y can take advantage of this and change the weather, and this can become problematic really fast as without Sandstorm, Garchomp can't really boost outside of Swords Dance. I will note that Mega Garchomp can hit VERY HARD, even without Sand Force, so disregard what I said in the last sentence. Finally, while it does have 3 weaknesses, the abundance of Fairy-Types in USUM OU threatens Garchomp's niche in OU due to their immunity to Dragon-Types, so unless Garchomp is carrying at least some type of super effective or even high damage neutral coverage, Garchomp is technically dead meat against Fairy-Types. Also, the metagame here is sifting into an offensive approach, and while it does help Mega Garchomp, it also hurts it at the same time. It does face heavy competition as an offensive Stealth Rock setter from pokemon such as Landorus-T, who has more versatality than Mega Garchomp despite being slightly slower and having lower defenses. Due to its 4x weakness to Ice-Types, it also has a hard time staying on the field as it can be easily revenge-killed or forced out by pokemon such as, but not limited to:
Greninja
Tapu Koko
Mega Latios
Depending on what coverage it's carrying, breaking through common pokemon such as Clefable, Tapu Bulu, and Celesteela can become a chore for Mega Garchomp to deal with. With the right coverage, it can break through them, but it either has to give up Stealth Rock or else Mega Garchomp may not be able to afford running it.

That's what I think. If any of the info here is wrong, I'll edit it ASAP.

 

[TURBODERP]

Mega Garchomp: C- -> B+
The speed drop after mega evolving may sound like a reason to not use Mega Garchomp in OU, but a great ability in Sand Force allows it to carve itself a niche in OU. The meta here is sifting into an offensive approach, and because of its wickedsick 170 physical attack, I think it bodes fairly well in the OU as it is now and shouldn't be dropped down to UR. The 115 physical defense stat on this pokemon allows it to tank most hits, and combined with its 108 HP stat means you have a bulky physical attacker. While its special defense and speed are rather problematic, you have great attacking stats as well as defending stats across the board. Now, it can't really aim for anything higher than a B+ as a 92 speed stat is solid, but not really enough to outspeed the majority of the metagame, and its special defense is problematic, as pokemon such as Magearna and Magnezone can take advantage of this to seriously wound or OHKO Mega Garchomp. It also has to rely on Tyranitar's Sand Stream for its Sand Force to activate, so pokemon such as Pelipper and Mega Charizard Y can take advantage of this and change the weather, and this can become problematic really fast as without Sandstorm, Garchomp can't really boost outside of Swords Dance. Finally, while it does have 3 weaknesses, the abundance of Fairy-Types in USUM OU threatens Garchomp's niche in OU due to their immunity to Dragon-Types, so unless Garchomp is carrying Toxic, Iron Head, or Metal Claw, Garchomp is technically dead meat against Fairy-Types.

B+ is a pretty damn big raise, and I definitely don't think MegaChomp should go that high (C or C+ is fine IMO), but there are some flaws in your reasoning.

Yes, 92 speed isn't great, but 95 SpDef is fine, especially with a meaty 108 HP stat. Against a neutral nature Garchomp, Scarf Magnezone's Flash Cannon is a 3HKO, and even Modest Flash Cannon never 2HKOs (even after SR, it's only a ~27% chance to be 2HKO'd, while you outspeed and OHKO back).

Even without Sand Force, Mega Garchomp hits super hard: Pelipper straight up dies to Stone Edge after Stealth Rock or 25%> chip damage, while Mega Charizard Y needs really high rolls to 2HKO with Solar Beam. Fairy-types are a good answer, but any chip means Standard Bold Clefable gets blown away by +2 EQ from Mega Garchomp without sand up.

 

[Vengeance417]

Mega Garchomp: C- -> B+
The speed drop after mega evolving may sound like a reason to not use Mega Garchomp in OU, but a great ability in Sand Force allows it to carve itself a niche in OU. The meta here is sifting into an offensive approach, and because of its wickedsick 170 physical attack, I think it bodes fairly well in the OU as it is now and shouldn't be dropped down to UR. The 115 physical defense stat on this pokemon allows it to tank most hits, and combined with its 108 HP stat means you have a bulky physical attacker. While its special defense and speed are rather problematic, you have great attacking stats as well as defending stats across the board. Now, it can't really aim for anything higher than a B+ as a 92 speed stat is solid, but not really enough to outspeed the majority of the metagame, and its special defense is problematic, as pokemon such as Magearna and Magnezone can take advantage of this to seriously wound or OHKO Mega Garchomp. It also has to rely on Tyranitar's Sand Stream for its Sand Force to activate, so pokemon such as Pelipper and Mega Charizard Y can take advantage of this and change the weather, and this can become problematic really fast as without Sandstorm, Garchomp can't really boost outside of Swords Dance. Finally, while it does have 3 weaknesses, the abundance of Fairy-Types in USUM OU threatens Garchomp's niche in OU due to their immunity to Dragon-Types, so unless Garchomp is carrying Toxic, Iron Head, or Metal Claw, Garchomp is technically dead meat against Fairy-Types.

No way should it rise that high. I do agree with a Mega Garchomp rise, but it should, if it were to move multiple placements, be ranked at C+, and with that in mind, it should start at C and work its way up.

You don't really mention how Mega Garchomp's viability has changed so drastically that has the capability of moving up 5 times in one update. Everything in your proposal has information that we already know about Mega Garchomp, and some of it is flat out wrong. I mentioned this in a previous thread, but Mega Garchomp has a Dragon Claw + Stomping Tantrum set that takes advantage of incoming Fairy-types like Clef, Fini and even Tapu Bulu if Chomp is at +2. The only Fairies that extremely threaten Mega Chomp are Lele and Koko, and even then, Chomp can withhold on Mega evolving to take out non-Scarf Lele at +2 Attack, and Koko's non-boosted HP Ice and Dazzling Gleam won't knock out Mega Chomp from full. Toxic, Iron Head and Metal Claw are useless options on Chomp, especially when two of them (Fini and Clef) are immune to Toxic.

Magnezone hardly threatens Chomp unless it gets the correct predictions with Flash Cannon, and AV Magearna is outsped and dealt with by Mega Chomp.

 

[Mob Barley]

Salamence UR -----> C-

Salamence @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fly
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance

I'd argue for it to be actually higher than C- but for now I'd like to at least get it on the board first. The niche of this set is throwing up subs easily and is done often with the high amounts of switches Salamence forces. Relevant high ranked mons like toxapex tapu bulu and heatran are generally pretty good bait for this set to get in position whether its forcing them out or watching a pex user attempt to status or haze. Your support should probably deal with the issues it faces like bulky electrics zapdos and rotom, and certain steels like celestella and skarmory. Anyway your working with 100 +1 after a DD. Thats more than acceptable in the sm meta, letting you pass though common scarfers like landorus and lele. While im sure some people can draw some comparisons to zygarde in this sets style, salamence is able to break bulky grasses a lot more efficiently than zygarde and hits outright way harder. Moxie also helps snowball your way to the finish line making intimidate pivoting not as effective in slowing your momentum. Throw up a like for mence, deserves to at least be listed

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-303540
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-826238926

 

[MikeDawg]

You don't really mention how Mega Garchomp's viability has changed

This argument works fine if we are talking about clefable or gyarados, but it's kind of irrelevant when C is basically a mess of mons that are probably viable but hardly used and explored. Pyukumu wasn't ranked because nobody realised that it's good. Serperior shot up when someone figured out that glare was annoying. Blacephalon came back from being almost unranked because sub cm was discovered and finch overcame his fear of clowns. Etc.

Edit: Vengeance417 I don't think mega chomp should move up 5 ranks. I'm js in general, because people parrot that argument a lot without actually considering context.