Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Johnny's Pouch]

Here's another nom I came up with, although this one is basically a set for a mon already ranked pretty high. I'm talking about

From UR-<C-
Regular sableye has a niche over its mega for being more focused on its ability prankster and statusing. It uses its wide array of status to annoy offense and defense alike, force switches, or turn opposing pokemon into setup bait for teammates.

The set:
Ability: Pranskter
Item: Leftovers
Moves:
-Will-o-wisp
-Toxic
-Recover
-Taunt
Nature: Calm
EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/ 252 SpD

As Sableye has a way to cripple physical attack but not special attack, it is more specially defensive. Taunt stops anything from setting up on it or preventing it from using its passive moves, Recover allows it to last throughout the match in conjunction with leftovers. Toxic cripples everthing else bar steel and poison types. Finally, will-o-wisp cripples any physical attackers. This set can be used on both stall and offense, as it can force many switches. All in all, sableye isn't great, but can do work in ou.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-826794207
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-826792491

 

[Marigold]

Been on the OU grind again, figured I'd give some hot takes on these mons.
Before posting: GEEZ this was a lot of work, hope you guys like the metagame analysis :]

Already Proposed Rises:

Hide

Crawdaunt C -> C+

Mostly Agree

Abuses the fact that water/dark resists ev themselves with spdef out the ass and rely on their items for the most part, and makes some tournament/top ladder appearances while putting in reasonable work. Being able to compress revenge killing Volcarona onto a fast offense team is a godsend too. It's as good yet situational as Volcanion, Terrakion, Bisharp, and Thundurus-I in my view, though at the same time that pitiful bulk and poor offensive matchup vs most of the top tier threats turns me away from using it at times (hella fun to use though).

Garchomp-Mega C- -> C

Agree

This is appearing more often and has a variety of appealing sets. SD rocks + edgequake with the sand rush core (the set I've been trying out lately), SD + 3 attacks, mixed rock setter are all potent vs different playstyles. Why not run Garchomp with an item for each of those sets, you may say? Freeing up the Z crystal or not having to run LO is great, and there are times when you do have a spare mega slot on your team anyway. Higher attack makes fire fang do noticeably more damage on SD sets, and the additional bulk is really nice too for stuff like Kartana, Heatran, etc. Mega Chomp is really enjoying Heatran/Steela + Pex + Bulu being spammed everywhere and the occasional lando-gearna as it tears these cores apart, so a rise should be reflective of its anti-meta niche.

Mandibuzz UR -> C+

Agree

Mandibuzz got talked to death earlier, but this bullshit vulture/turkey from hell is immortal with the right support. Completely shutting down fat cores with taunt/knock, blowing up physical setup with foul play, synergizing super well with water resists to shut down stuff like Ash Gren, hard stopping grass spam, punishing scarf Lando and other staples are among the list of traits this mon can bring to a team. I haven't had much experience using this, but it is certainly a huge pain to deal with on preview and at least has enough niche to be ranked for OU.

Lopunny-M B+ -> A-

OML YES

2018 has been a rollercoaster for my favourite pokemon, but this metagame is currently its time to shine. Mega Lop loves that Clefable/Zapdos are essentially dead in the current meta, Pex running max spdef as usual (return does 40 min and forces it to recover), and the Zam craze has ended, and also enjoys slapping a variety of HO teams that have risen in usage (notably bullshit glare teams). Its best partners are extremely splashable and threatening such as Tapu Bulu and Garchomp, meaning the Lop + breaker archetype is back in business. Offensively checking Mega Mawile and Bisharp is a godsend for offensive teams, Lopunny has a lot going for it right now and its ranking should indicate that.

Already Proposed Drops:

Hide

Clefable from A to A-

Strongly Agree

Clefable is at its worst right now, letting in a ton of rising threats like spdef Bulu, bulky Volc, Heatran, Magearna, Mawile for free while failing to reliably check destructive monsters like Medicham (lots of adamant these days) or Zygarde (band + glare, iron tail) when compared to before. As a bulky rock setter, it faces more competition each passing day with rising sets such as tank/offensive Garchomp, omnipresent Heatran, Mega TTar, and more. It directly competes with near omnipresent Bulu for the bulky fairy slot, CM sets are unbelievably ass with hard counters and offensive presence being tossed around everywhere, honestly bringing Clef feels more like a liability which mandates support, than the splashable utility punching bag it used to be.

Gyarados from B+ to B

Strongly Disagree

Take a quick look at all your Bulu/Tang + Heatran teams, and tell me how many solely rely on scarf stone edge Lando to deal with this gigantic threat to balance right now. Most teams rely on water resists that are weak to flying, or just fail to do anything meaningful to Gyarados at the moment. With Zapdos off the radar for the most part and Torn being the flying defogger of choice, the meta has IMPROVED for this ddancer if anything. Keep it where it is, just don't drop it.

Mega Gyarados from B to B-

Agree

Outside of HO, you don't see this mon and for good reason. It struggles to break the fat grass cores being spammed that its base form can rip through and suffers a lot of competition for the water slot on a team. It's an unfortunate case of being caught in the "Ash Gren prep" crossfire, unintentionally being prepped hard against. A drop would indicate its worsening spot in the meta at the moment.

Kingdra from B to B-

Agree

Pretty much the same reasoning as with Mega Gyarados dropping, unintentionally overprepped for and suffers from a lot of broken competition. Drop it down.

Qwilfish from C to C-

Disagree

Decreased Pex usage hurts this thing's niche in the first place, but it still shreds fat teams to ribbons courtesy of dual stab + explosion and access to SD (see: punishing grass mon cores for being premier water resists at the moment). The flavor of the month rain changed, but I don't think enough has changed in the meta to warrant a drop.

My Own Nominations:

Zard X B+ -> A-

Explanation

Ddance Dual Stab + Roost eviscerates most Zygarde+Bulu bulky offenses, relying on bulky Scarf Lando-T to take a hit and revenge but that's just prone to getting worn down from hazards or Zard X itself. Some teams even just pray for Zard to not have EQ and rely on Heatran to handle it, which is still fine because Heatran is a big target for luring these days from sets like fighting coverage Torn. Pair with a Bulu, and watch even physdef Gliscor fail to do anything to Zard X as it sets up several ddances. Huge and underprepped threat atm, being able to eviscerate common stall/balance/HO(<- after a ddance) is such a blessing and deserves a rise.

EDIT: oops, just saw somebody else did this nom so it isn’t new to this slate. Points still stand though.

Slowbro B- -> B

Explanation

This classic is slowly finding its way onto many of my teams, synergizing extremely well with fat grasses (notably Tapu Bulu) to check Zygarde even better while checking rising threats like Garchomp, Mega Lopunny, Mega Medicham, the overly spammed Scarf Lando, and more. It's one of the best para spreaders which for some reason everybody has a boner for para spam, and has a couple sets it can run such as max def lefties/helmet, or modest vest (nice mixed bulk helps check Heatran and keep some physical bulk as opposed to Slowking). Solid pick I encourage you to try if you feel Pex is letting you down in terms of offensive momentum, and can deal with rising threats so it should rise in viability as well. Replays available on request.

Lati@s C+ -> C

Explanation

When have you last seen these on a serious team? The base eon duo is, frankly, so ass in the metagame at the moment. Scarf sets are deadweight in any matchup that isn't HO (and doesn't even do much in the rain matchup anyway), specs are difficult to lock into and switching moves is what makes (Mega) Latis do anything in OU right now, roost sets are outclassed by their mega counterparts because the bulk and reduced knock off damage are so crucial, the latis are running out of notable niches and a drop would be indicative of this.

 

[volx757]

Here's another nom I came up with, although this one is basically a set for a mon already ranked pretty high. I'm talking about

View attachment 147639 From UR-<C-
Regular sableye has a niche over its mega for being more focused on its ability prankster and statusing. It uses its wide array of status to annoy offense and defense alike, force switches, or turn opposing pokemon into setup bait for teammates.

The set:
Ability: Pranskter
Item: Leftovers
Moves:
-Will-o-wisp
-Toxic
-Recover
-Taunt
Nature: Calm
EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/ 252 SpD

As Sableye has a way to cripple physical attack but not special attack, it is more specially defensive. Taunt stops anything from setting up on it or preventing it from using its passive moves, Recover allows it to last throughout the match in conjunction with leftovers. Toxic cripples everthing else bar steel and poison types. Finally, will-o-wisp cripples any physical attackers. This set can be used on both stall and offense, as it can force many switches. All in all, sableye isn't great, but can do work in ou.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-826794207
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-826792491

I do think regular sab can be cool, mostly for prankster will-o, but I think the fact that it's helpless against dark types make it really hard to justify using. If sab is your answer to boosting physical attackers, you need to then carry a second answer to mega gyara, ttar, bisharp, etc. Same goes for the special side toxicing threats; hoopa and both greninjas can't be stopped by this set. And a burned mega mawille still ohkos you, or they can SD as you will-o.

I like the mon but I think it's really hard to justify a slot for it.

 

[Johnny's Pouch]

I do think regular sab can be cool, mostly for prankster will-o, but I think the fact that it's helpless against dark types make it really hard to justify using. If sab is your answer to boosting physical attackers, you need to then carry a second answer to mega gyara, ttar, bisharp, etc. Same goes for the special side toxicing threats; hoopa and both greninjas can't be stopped by this set. And a burned mega mawille still ohkos you, or they can SD as you will-o.

I like the mon but I think it's really hard to justify a slot for it.

True, but most dark types have been dropping off in usage, which is why I think sableye can at least function in ou. Also, mega mawile and gyarados hate switching into will-o-wisp. These flaws stated by you are big though, which is why its only C-.

 

[Adapt or Die]

True, but most dark types have been dropping off in usage, which is why I think sableye can at least function in ou. Also, mega mawile and gyarados hate switching into will-o-wisp. These flaws stated by you are big though, which is why its only C-.

As a player that frequently uses Reuniclus, there's a dark type on like at least 50% of the teams I face. Ash-Greninja alone gets a huge amount of usage on balance, offense, and rain. Mega-Sab is frequently on stall. Crawdaunt on TR. Tyranitar is not uncommon on a variety of teams either. Reuniclus is good enough to overcome this flaw. I have serious doubts that normal sableye is.

 

[Steel With It]

True, but most dark types have been dropping off in usage, which is why I think sableye can at least function in ou. Also, mega mawile and gyarados hate switching into will-o-wisp. These flaws stated by you are big though, which is why its only C-.

As somebody who often runs non-Mega Sableye, the best way to use it is to pack Mega and simply not evolve until/unless you need to, even on balanced teams. Tyranitar alone is enough to give Leftovers a higher opportunity cost than the Mega slot.

 

[Srn]

As somebody who often runs non-Mega Sableye, the best way to use it is to pack Mega and simply not evolve until/unless you need to, even on balanced teams. Tyranitar alone is enough to give Leftovers a higher opportunity cost than the Mega slot.

So what you're saying is that the best way to run non-mega sableye is to run mega sableye
sounds about right.

Don't bully lati@s pls

To make this not a one-line shitpost, I want to say I disagree with the proposed drop of lati@s from C+-->C
To be perfectly clear the megas of both are significantly better than base forms, but I find even regular latios to be usable where a mega latios would usually be run. A simple soul dew set with draco/psychic/surf/roost provides a lot more power, speed, recovery, and defensive utility than anything in C+ or C, and its WAY better than garbage like regular zam, mega manectric, and mantine. Its a solid set thats slightly worse than mega latios while freeing up the mega slot, and a mon like that should not be ranked C.

Somebody said that mega zam completely outclasses mega latios when justifying its drop, and I fully disagree with that too. Zam doesn't provide fire, water, grass, and electric resists like latios does, nor can it reliably 2hko certain relevant pivots like av magearna; mega latios is fairly unaffected by recent trends like av ttar and enjoys drops in clef and sciz usage. To take advantage of clef dropping off, I find that sets like Draco/Hp fire/EQ/roost are pretty effective right now.

I do agree with ske's reasoning that mega latias is more consistent defensively, but (mega) latios is still so much more immediately threatening and I really dont think its gotten much worse, sets have simply changed.

 

[Adapt or Die]

The Lati@s nom has drawn my attention to C-tier and I think alola-muk really should rise. To C+ at least, maybe even B-. It has two sets I've seen people use in AV and curse recycle gluttony which can be annoyingly hard to ko if you don't have knock off. AV is definitely better, but I mention curse because its one of those sweeps unprepared teams mons and literally no one prepares for it although most teams have a natural check they might not think about saving said check because they didn't expect to get swept by freaking muk.

Is arguably the best pursuit trapper in the tier by which I mean it is not the best mon that gets pursuit, but the best at actually trapping the mons its supposed to trap. I think it does well in this grass-psychic heavy meta and is one of the safest answers to high danger mons serp and lele, while also checking ash-greninja. Also literally the best reuniclus counter in the game. Plus nothing likes switching into it as knock-off + poison touch means you lose your item and can get poisoned. Just really stands out among the C-tier as a better option.

 

[ZiodyneDX]

The Lati@s nom has drawn my attention to C-tier and I think alola-muk really should rise. To C+ at least, maybe even B-. It has two sets I've seen people use in AV and curse recycle gluttony which can be annoyingly hard to ko if you don't have knock off. AV is definitely better, but I mention curse because its one of those sweeps unprepared teams mons and literally no one prepares for it although most teams have a natural check they might not think about saving said check because they didn't expect to get swept by freaking muk.

Is arguably the best pursuit trapper in the tier by which I mean it is not the best mon that gets pursuit, but the best at actually trapping the mons its supposed to trap. I think it does well in this grass-psychic heavy meta and is one of the safest answers to high danger mons serp and lele, while also checking ash-greninja. Also literally the best reuniclus counter in the game. Plus nothing likes switching into it as knock-off + poison touch means you lose your item and can get poisoned. Just really stands out among the C-tier as a better option.

Agree. A-Muk also has a unique niche to checking every Tapu as well. As well as commom Psychis such as M-Alakazam and Renculus. It a decent check to Ash-Gren if its choice-locked to a dark-move. However it could still be overpowered if It has already transformed

 

[Finchinator]

The Lati@s nom has drawn my attention to C-tier and I think alola-muk really should rise. To C+ at least, maybe even B-. It has two sets I've seen people use in AV and curse recycle gluttony which can be annoyingly hard to ko if you don't have knock off. AV is definitely better, but I mention curse because its one of those sweeps unprepared teams mons and literally no one prepares for it although most teams have a natural check they might not think about saving said check because they didn't expect to get swept by freaking muk.

First off, what? I have hardly ever seen any Curse Recycle Gluttony sets going around and this sounds horrible. 95% of teams have a Knock Off user right now, there are a ton of things that handle that set in theory, and the lack of AV makes it susceptible to so much more. AV as it is has such a limited, team specific, hard-to-justify place in the metagame; I have not seen this other set and I find it incredibly hard to justify using it as a significant positive with regards to the "increased" (lol) viability of Alolan Muk.

Second off, I disagree a lot. If anything, Alolan Muk should drop. There have really been no relevant uses of it in tournaments and on higher portions of the ladder I see it maybe once every couple weeks, if even. The only time I see it actually being used in a serious context is on a few more counterstyle specific stall builds and even those have never became too common; iirc, Eo used one in Smogon Snake Draft and there was one team that some dude spammed with it during OLT, but the viability of Alolan Muk outside of stall is literally near zero in my eyes while on stall it is far from a main option.

Is arguably the best pursuit trapper in the tier by which I mean it is not the best mon that gets pursuit, but the best at actually trapping the mons its supposed to trap.

So you're saying it's the most defensive Pursuit trapper, not the best Pursuit trapper. The best Pursuit trapper implies that it is a practical, multi-dimensional option. Alolan Muk is by no means the best Pursuit trapper in the metagame, but it is the most efficient defensive countermeasure to Mega Alakazam, non-Specs Tapu Lele, and Serperior that happens to have Pursuit. Weavile is a better offensive Pursuiter and a more practical option on more teams whereas Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar are more versatile and viable overall presences.

I think it does well in this grass-psychic heavy meta and is one of the safest answers to high danger mons serp and lele, while also checking ash-greninja. Also literally the best reuniclus counter in the game. Plus nothing likes switching into it as knock-off + poison touch means you lose your item and can get poisoned. Just really stands out among the C-tier as a better option.

It does not stand out to me at all there; if anything, it seems a tad underwhelming relative to the other already barely viable options. The metagame also is hardly Psychic heavy as you describe it; Tapu Lele has maintained decent levels of usage, but Mega Alakazam has fallen off significantly and for an even longer period we have seen less-and-less Mega Latios/Latias. And the metagame being Grass heavy is irrelevant to Alolan Muk seeing as it hardly Pursuits any of them for significant damage, Tangrowth Knocks it off and then the next time it comes in it can legitimately 1v1 it if it EQs on the switchin, and Tapu Bulu wears it out/has wayyyyy better, more practical counterplay.

Your arguments are largely incomplete or ignorant to significant metagame factors while also just skimming the surface of a far more complex topic that you simply graze over the positives of as opposed to considering the true metagame implications of. Alolan Muk is not good, nor worth using outside of fringe-viable stall teams that have barely even been used recently.

 

[Adapt or Die]

First off, what? I have hardly ever seen any Curse Recycle Gluttony sets going around and this sounds horrible. 95% of teams have a Knock Off user right now, there are a ton of things that handle that set in theory, and the lack of AV makes it susceptible to so much more. AV as it is has such a limited, team specific, hard-to-justify place in the metagame; I have not seen this other set and I find it incredibly hard to justify using it as a significant positive with regards to the "increased" (lol) viability of Alolan Muk.

Second off, I disagree a lot. If anything, Alolan Muk should drop. There have really been no relevant uses of it in tournaments and on higher portions of the ladder I see it maybe once every couple weeks, if even. The only time I see it actually being used in a serious context is on a few more counterstyle specific stall builds and even those have never became too common; iirc, Eo used one in Smogon Snake Draft and there was one team that some dude spammed with it during OLT, but the viability of Alolan Muk outside of stall is literally near zero in my eyes while on stall it is far from a main option.


So you're saying it's the most defensive Pursuit trapper, not the best Pursuit trapper. The best Pursuit trapper implies that it is a practical, multi-dimensional option. Alolan Muk is by no means the best Pursuit trapper in the metagame, but it is the most efficient defensive countermeasure to Mega Alakazam, non-Specs Tapu Lele, and Serperior that happens to have Pursuit. Weavile is a better offensive Pursuiter and a more practical option on more teams whereas Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar are more versatile and viable overall presences.


It does not stand out to me at all there; if anything, it seems a tad underwhelming relative to the other already barely viable options. The metagame also is hardly Psychic heavy as you describe it; Tapu Lele has maintained decent levels of usage, but Mega Alakazam has fallen off significantly and for an even longer period we have seen less-and-less Mega Latios/Latias. And the metagame being Grass heavy is irrelevant to Alolan Muk seeing as it hardly Pursuits any of them for significant damage, Tangrowth Knocks it off and then the next time it comes in it can legitimately 1v1 it if it EQs on the switchin, and Tapu Bulu wears it out/has wayyyyy better, more practical counterplay.

Your arguments are largely incomplete or ignorant to significant metagame factors while also just skimming the surface of a far more complex topic that you simply graze over the positives of as opposed to considering the true metagame implications of. Alolan Muk is not good, nor worth using outside of fringe-viable stall teams that have barely even been used recently.

AV muk being the predominant and better set I wanted a chance to complete my arguments focused on it:

Psychic heavy meta: Lele is still a top tier threat. Alakazam has fallen a bit but still gets significant play. The Latis have fallen but still get played. So its true when you look at the top tier psychics they have fallen off a bit. But look at lower tier psychics and we see a different story: slowbro on the rise, jirachi on the rise. Overall the meta is psychic heavy and I would say has not gotten less psychic heavy. Even psychics muk doesn't outright beat it harasses with knock off and poison.

Grass matchups: Its true muk is not a good bulu counter, although it threatens it out under the right circumstances (choiced not into wood hammer, not yet boosted). As for tangrowth, this is what I would consider mutually disadvantageous. Tang can knock off muk, but can get knocked off itself and get poisoned at which point it is pretty bad at checking the things it needs to check. Serperior is a good and vital matchup, and I've already stated my thoughts on the snake needing to rise to A-. Ferrothorn it can threaten out with fire punch.

Other meta trends in its favor: Ash-Gren being dominant. Tapu fini on the rise. AV muk is a good Ash-Gren check that can eat a few attacks threaten it out AND pursuit poison it. Ash-Gren is a hit and run mon and pursuiting it gets some damage and a 30% poison chance. If you do get that poison the frog is ruined. Plus if they layed down spikes (common if you have switchin to both stabs) on the switch muk took no actual damage and can just do it again. The best tapu fini can do is nature madness, or defog on the switch and switch out.

Bottom Line: A-Muk can switch in and scare out a lot of common mons. It is hard to switch into due to the power of poison touch knock-off ruining a lot of mons (lando-t and zygarde both hate switching into it). It fits fine on balanced/bulky offense builds that need a check to the aforementioned mons and is not just a niche stall choice. It's a harassment mon that has a few choice matchups and significantly weakens teams. To me that makes it a lot better than Mega-freaking Manectric.

On curse a-muk: I agree its a very niche option that require the right team support. Having not built a team with it myself I'm relying on random opponent uploads for replays which I don't think are very convincing and obviously not uploaded to show it off. But just to prove that it is seen on the ladder these are from the 1600-1800 range. PHM isn't the only user I've seen, just the only whose screen name I remember.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-826251374 (almost breaks a core and might have with slightly better play)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-825798030 (double muk, av koes mega-pidgeott, curse does jack shit)

Clearly we don't see eye to eye on this, which is fine as pokemon would be boring if everyone agreed. I will concede I am maybe ultra sensitive to it, as the last two teams I've played extensively used Reuniclus and dread seeing a-muk at preview.

 

[Mawilover]

Mega Venusaur to B+
My own nomination:
Reasoning
- Decreased use of Psychic-types
It is no secret to anyone that Mega Alakazam and Mega Latios are no longer as before, the second even becoming UUBL, and the declining popularity of both is a big positive factor for Mega Venusaur.
- Decreased use of Flying-types
Gyarados and Hawlucha have also lost some of their brilliance, and both are no longer seen with the same frequency, except for some Hyper Offense, while Mega Pinsir did not even have a high popularity, but this has worsened a little more.
- Increased use of Fairy-types
Mega Mawile is undoubtedly the best and megaest evolution currently, and with the exception of the rare Iron Head, she has certain issues with Mega Venusaur. Mega Diancie and Magearna alsl improved recently, and both do not enjoy going against Mega Venusaur.
- Increased use of Water-types
Ash Greninja is good as he has never been before, surely this is his best moment, and although Mega Venusaur does not resist the Dark Pulse, he is able to handle it more than decently. Rotom-Wash has also improved, and there's not much he can do with Mega Venusaur other than using Volt Switch.
- Increased use of Grass-types
It's almost impossible to see a team without Ferrothorn, Tapu Bulu or Tangrowth, and Mega Venusaur is the ultimate counter for them, thanks to their Poison-type part, it actually takes 0 damage from them, and retaliates with Sludge Bomb or HP Fire.
- Decreased use of Weather
Weather summoners have become less popular. Tyranitar does not have the same popularity, Ninetales-Alola has been almost completely replaced by Tapu Koko, and Rain is also being somewhat less used than before. This means Synthesis is a little better.

Mega Venusaur has two great defensive types, and Grass-types defensive in general are good. Mega Venusaur has benefited greatly from recent changes in the use of certain pokémon, and he check a large part of the metagame, including big names like Ash Greninja and Mega Mawile. Mega Venusaur certainly deserves a rise.​

 

[Gary]

View attachment 147750
Mega Venusaur to B+
My own nomination:
Reasoning
- Decreased use of Psychic-types
It is no secret to anyone that Mega Alakazam and Mega Latios are no longer as before, the second even becoming UUBL, and the declining popularity of both is a big positive factor for Mega Venusaur.
- Decreased use of Flying-types
Gyarados and Hawlucha have also lost some of their brilliance, and both are no longer seen with the same frequency, except for some Hyper Offense, while Mega Pinsir did not even have a high popularity, but this has worsened a little more.
- Increased use of Fairy-types
Mega Mawile is undoubtedly the best and megaest evolution currently, and with the exception of the rare Iron Head, she has certain issues with Mega Venusaur. Mega Diancie and Magearna alsl improved recently, and both do not enjoy going against Mega Venusaur.
- Increased use of Water-types
Ash Greninja is good as he has never been before, surely this is his best moment, and although Mega Venusaur does not resist the Dark Pulse, he is able to handle it more than decently. Rotom-Wash has also improved, and there's not much he can do with Mega Venusaur other than using Volt Switch.
- Increased use of Grass-types
It's almost impossible to see a team without Ferrothorn, Tapu Bulu or Tangrowth, and Mega Venusaur is the ultimate counter for them, thanks to their Poison-type part, it actually takes 0 damage from them, and retaliates with Sludge Bomb or HP Fire.
- Decreased use of Weather
Weather summoners have become less popular. Tyranitar does not have the same popularity, Ninetales-Alola has been almost completely replaced by Tapu Koko, and Rain is also being somewhat less used than before. This means Synthesis is a little better.

Mega Venusaur has two great defensive types, and Grass-types defensive in general are good. Mega Venusaur has benefited greatly from recent changes in the use of certain pokémon, and he check a large part of the metagame, including big names like Ash Greninja and Mega Mawile. Mega Venusaur certainly deserves a rise.​

I don't really like cherry picking posts but I just want to say that I feel like there are a lot of flaws with this nom. First of all, using "increased or decreased usage *insert type here*" has never had a good track record when trying to get your point across. This is usually a very single minded way at looking at the meta, because it's eliminating a lot of other potential factors and merely looking at something in a vacuum. Especially considering that just because something is "weak" to Mega Venu's STABs doesn't necessarily mean it still outright loses to it. Like for example, Venu is probably one of the worst Grass checks to Ash Gren in the tier. Unlike Bulu/Ferro it doesn't have passive recovery outside of really low PP Synthesis which it's going to spam most matches unless you pressure the ever living fuck out of the opponent's hazard setters. Most of the time I've used Ash vs Mega Venu teams it usually does nothing to really stop Gren from getting off Battle Bond for the entire match. It's so prone to chip that it's kinda pathetic. Honestly all the relevant Water-types are really annoying for Mega Venu if anything; Fini forces it to Synthesis if it Natures Madness on the switch, Rotom-W burns and Volts out every time, Gren/Ash just spam strong moves vs it as it comes in and Spikes, Pex just burns and literally stalls it out. Yeah Venu is a good Growth and Bulu check but it's a garbage Ferro check unless it runs HP Fire otherwise it's complete Spike fodder. Even when it comes in on something like Growth's Knock for example, it just sucks all momentum away from you. Compare this to Ferro for instance, which can just Spike up regardless of what comes in even if the opponent had 6 Ferro checks.

Tyranitar does not have the same popularity

That's just straight up incorrect. If anything, T-tar is better now than it's been in a few months. Not just regular T-tar, but Mega specifically. People are starting to use Mega Tar a lot more as their Rocker/Pursuiter and I've even seen sand offense start to gain traction too. Mega Tar literally just rose this slate. But yeah, Mega Venu has like extreme competition for a Mega slot. There aren't any super dominant Megas aside from Mawile and I'd still consider so many more Megas for my slot than Venu, which barely does its job ever. I'd drop it if anything honestly. It's really bad.

Catch me with a Mandibuzz before a Mega Venu tbh.

 

[Ayu]

Somebody said that mega zam completely outclasses mega latios when justifying its drop, and I fully disagree with that too. Zam doesn't provide fire, water, grass, and electric resists like latios does, nor can it reliably 2hko certain relevant pivots like av magearna; mega latios is fairly unaffected by recent trends like av ttar and enjoys drops in clef and sciz usage. To take advantage of clef dropping off, I find that sets like Draco/Hp fire/EQ/roost are pretty effective right now.

I do agree with ske's reasoning that mega latias is more consistent defensively, but (mega) latios is still so much more immediately threatening and I really dont think its gotten much worse, sets have simply changed.

I initially said in my post that the metagame is taking a more offensive approach thus Mega Latios doesn't work as well as it used to since it can't apply more offensive pressure than other psychic types can do regardless of its good typing.

First off, Latios' usage during Snake Draft was 6.75% with a win ratio around 38% which means that Mega Latios lost some shine. This is due to its susceptibility to be statused , somewhat average bulk compared to Mega Latias and his attacks aren't powerful enough and once it has been scouted, it can be played around a lot easier and becomes setup fodder for some mons depending on the coverage.

Secondly, the most recent usage of Mega Latios in the ladder is 98 | Latios-Mega | 1.41695% | 53994 | 1.417% | 39637 | 1.368% - once again, the metagame makes a difficult but not impossible place for Mega Latios to fit in, since the preference these days is shifted towards more offensive and effective Pokemon. I'm not trying to say Mega Latios is bad by any means, of course it's still usable but it has lost its effectiveness being somewhat overshadowed by others.
Thus, I still think Mega Latios should drop to B+.

 

[Colonel M]

I agree with most of Gary's post (barring Mandibuzz, you wouldn't catch me dead or alive using that Pokemon unless it's Aegislash meta all over again). Mega Venusaur definitely appreciates a few changes, but it's still a Pokemon that faces severe competition. Grass-types like Bulu, Tangrowth, and even Amoonguss make better defensive pivots most of the time. As also mentioned Mega Tyranitar is picking up steam which severely hurts Synthesis recovery. Theres also direct competition as a Mega slot since Mega Mawile is dominant with Mega Alakazam and Mega Medicham still being very good. As mentioned before Mega Tyranitar's rise is also bad for Mega slot competition and lest we forget some other sleeper mons like Zard X also having a lot of perks.

Either way, I definitely disagree with a Mega Venusaur rise. Either remaining in it's current tier or dropping (leaning the former) seems to accurately reflect Mega Venusaur.

As for a few other nominations, I disagree with the Lati twins dropping to C, especially Latias which still provides Healing Wish utility to open up a little more aggressive usage of some Pokemon. I also think Jirachi should rise - it's a decent check to Tapu Lele and Tornadus-T while sporting utility with Wish or Healing Wish. It's also gained a bit more popularity in some team compositions. I dont see it on the same level as a mon like Keldeo who has only gotten worse as time progresses. Then again, maybe that should signal a Keldeo drop instead of a Jirachi rise, but I think Jirachi is good enough for B Tier since it holds pretty strong niches like Hydreigon. I dont think theres any merit to regular Sableye when you have Mega with the option to be regular at the start, Mega Steelix nom seems fine, and I'm too biased against buzz to say anything (fuck Finchinator).

Also can we please have nominations that look more normal? I dont mind a little color, but the formatting of some and the weird use of pronouns (he/she on a Pokemon that has a 50/50 Gender or any chance of an opposite gender feels really fucking weird to me and reminds me of people who cant write analyses well) are really starting to become bothersome.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I agree with most of Gary's post (barring Mandibuzz, you wouldn't catch me dead or alive using that Pokemon unless it's Aegislash meta all over again).

what is the overall hate towards the goddess buzz? seriously ive been using to Monumental success for years now and it just gets so much hate even though people straight up go down to the mon all time time. like a lot of people have lost to the mon but theres this attitude that it's bad for some weird reason, I do not understand it other than groupthink. Can you elaborate?

 

[Colonel M]

what is the overall hate towards the goddess buzz? seriously ive been using to Monumental success for years now and it just gets so much hate even though people straight up go down to the mon all time time. like a lot of people have lost to the mon but theres this attitude that it's bad for some weird reason, I do not understand it other than groupthink. Can you elaborate?

Before I proceed, let me preface that I dont want to go any further with Mandibuzz discussion since Finch said to drop it, but since this is a legitimate question I'll answer it. I'm not going to bother arguing for or against the mon really since as I said I do not care for Mandi outside of Aegis meta whatsoever, but this does at least deserve a proper answer and I'm going to provide it.

I'll admit there are some nice things about Mandibuzz, and to be fair it can be a nuisance to a lot of teams in general. Here are some of my problems with Mandibuzz:

1) Mandibuzz definitely has a lot of issues fitting the moves it wants. Roost is always mandatory, and it definitely wants one of Knock Off or Foul Play, and I would assume Toxic is near mandatory. Theres also Taunt that it likes to prevent some mons like SubZygarde or Curse Scizor to set up on it (assuming Knock Off or just in general for the latter), Defog is nice for some teams, etc.

2) It does poorly against some common Rockers. Mega Diance, Clefable, and offensive Landorus-T dont really care for any of Mandibuzz's antics and can set up rocks without too many issues unless you're constantly double switching, which I know for some of your compositions is difficult (if not almost impossible) against some of these like Mega Diancie. 2 of the 3 barely care against anything Mandibuzz will ever do to them, and Landorus wont care a ton if its Toxic'd or if it has Knock Off. Theres also Garchomp which has become a more common offensive rocker that will often pack Continental Crush to bypass Mandibuzz. Let's also not forget Z Heatran which doesnt really care about Mandibuzz at all either.

3) Awkwardly fits into teams, in my personal opinion. Mandibuzz is a strange enigma that I feel would fit into some teams but in the end doesnt really cut it. Mandibuzz to me is just kind of a fat Pokemon. It doesnt really have the most useful resistances or immunities (the Flying-type helps it, and sometimes the Dark-typing can help against Mega Zam if it carelessly clicks a Psychic move) and I admit the Pokemon can work just fine, but me personally I've never liked the mon outside of Aegis meta since the day Aegis left. Even in Aegis meta I didnt like the mon because SubToxic Aegis could just Toxic and wear down while Shield form could live two Foul Plays, etc. I get that's past tense, but even in the present day I've not been a huge fan of this mon when we have a lot more options for Defoggers and defensive pivots which I feel compliment teams a lot better.

Again I am not going to be angry or happy at the results of Mandibuzz ranked or unranked, but I felt the question is valid and deserved a valid response. There is nothing wrong if you want to use and feel that there is a niche for Mandibuzz whatsoever. I also want to stress that these are my personal thoughts and reasons, and they do not necessarily reflect anything council nor other players' reasoning.

Please let's not drag it any further than this, though, since Finch also said enough.

I apologize for the awkward grammar and spelling. Phone shenanigans.

 

[lydian]

to B rank: Agreed: While Jirachi doesn’t quite appreciate most of the current metagame trends, I’ve recently started building with it more and more and came to the conclusion that it’s a lot more solid than what a B- placement gives it credit for. Here are the usage stats for 1825 from the last three months that greatly show how Jirachi is getting some traction as of late.

+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
| Rank | Pokemon            | Usage %   | Raw    | %       | Real   | %       |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
| 52   | Jirachi            |  3.50656% | 150708 |  3.621% | 112890 |  3.561% | 
| 45   | Jirachi            |  4.36406% | 128379 |  3.328% | 96053  |  3.271% | 
| 42   | Jirachi            |  4.34381% | 125677 |  3.298% | 94322  |  3.254% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +

As another note, Jirachi has also been getting plenty of usage in Smogon Tour Playoffs, being a part of a whopping 12.5% of all teams used in this part of the tournament. I acknowledge that usage stats don’t mean everything—especially with such a small sample size in Smogon Tour’s case—but it really goes to show the traction it’s been receiving as of late. So, yeah, I fully support this proposed rise.

♂ to B+ rank: Agreed: For as much as I love Mega Latios I have to agree it’s lost a bit of its shine as of late. It’s really losing a lot of usage and shine. While a Heatran check is always welcome, especially now that Corkscrew Crash is getting a bit rarer, Mega Latios just ends up leaving a bit to be desired. Inviting Ash-Greninja for free is a huge downside, and forgoing Ice Beam really hurts the matchup with Landorus-T, Gliscor, and Tapu Bulu, and you don’t get to make use of that juicy Mamoswine-esque coverage. Plus, without any boosting item, its damage output can be a bit dissapointing when compared to other wallbreakers. Obviously, it’s still a great team that absolutely havocs unprepared teams, but a A- ranking feels slightly over the top in my opinion.

 

[ZiodyneDX]

I don't really like cherry picking posts but I just want to say that I feel like there are a lot of flaws with this nom. First of all, using "increased or decreased usage *insert type here*" has never had a good track record when trying to get your point across. This is usually a very single minded way at looking at the meta, because it's eliminating a lot of other potential factors and merely looking at something in a vacuum. Especially considering that just because something is "weak" to Mega Venu's STABs doesn't necessarily mean it still outright loses to it. Like for example, Venu is probably one of the worst Grass checks to Ash Gren in the tier. Unlike Bulu/Ferro it doesn't have passive recovery outside of really low PP Synthesis which it's going to spam most matches unless you pressure the ever living fuck out of the opponent's hazard setters. Most of the time I've used Ash vs Mega Venu teams it usually does nothing to really stop Gren from getting off Battle Bond for the entire match. It's so prone to chip that it's kinda pathetic. Honestly all the relevant Water-types are really annoying for Mega Venu if anything; Fini forces it to Synthesis if it Natures Madness on the switch, Rotom-W burns and Volts out every time, Gren/Ash just spam strong moves vs it as it comes in and Spikes, Pex just burns and literally stalls it out. Yeah Venu is a good Growth and Bulu check but it's a garbage Ferro check unless it runs HP Fire otherwise it's complete Spike fodder. Even when it comes in on something like Growth's Knock for example, it just sucks all momentum away from you. Compare this to Ferro for instance, which can just Spike up regardless of what comes in even if the opponent had 6 Ferro checks.



That's just straight up incorrect. If anything, T-tar is better now than it's been in a few months. Not just regular T-tar, but Mega specifically. People are starting to use Mega Tar a lot more as their Rocker/Pursuiter and I've even seen sand offense start to gain traction too. Mega Tar literally just rose this slate. But yeah, Mega Venu has like extreme competition for a Mega slot. There aren't any super dominant Megas aside from Mawile and I'd still consider so many more Megas for my slot than Venu, which barely does its job ever. I'd drop it if anything honestly. It's really bad.

Catch me with a Mandibuzz before a Mega Venu tbh.

One trend about M-Venusaur that wont die down is its unfortunate case of major 4MSS.

Venusar needs to likely run for its first 3 slots

Giga Drain
Synthesis
Leech Seed/Sleep Powder.

But then..If it does nor runt Sludge Bomb in the 4th slot it can wall other Defensive Grass piviots like Bulu and Tantgrowth but cannot do much to hurt them in return Also the same with HP fire and Ferrothorn..as well as potential SD set-up foddee M-Scizor and M-Mawlie to boot. Without EQ its gets walled by Heatran. So this is a major factor for facing competion from other mention grass-mons that dont take up your Mega-Slot as well

 

[Srn]

♂ to B+ rank: Agreed: For as much as I love Mega Latios I have to agree it’s lost a bit of its shine as of late. It’s really losing a lot of usage and shine. While a Heatran check is always welcome, especially now that Corkscrew Crash is getting a bit rarer, Mega Latios just ends up leaving a bit to be desired. Inviting Ash-Greninja for free is a huge downside, and forgoing Ice Beam really hurts the matchup with Landorus-T, Gliscor, and Tapu Bulu, and you don’t get to make use of that juicy Mamoswine-esque coverage. Plus, without any boosting item, its damage output can be a bit dissapointing when compared to other wallbreakers. Obviously, it’s still a great team that absolutely havocs unprepared teams, but a A- ranking feels slightly over the top in my opinion.

forgoing ice beam hurts tapu bulu and to a lesser extent your gliscor matchup yes, but the reason people run draco at all is so that ash gren doesn't come in for free. I think your concerns with lando-t matchup are exaggerated as well
252 SpA Latios-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 298-352 (93.4 - 110.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Latios-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 327-385 (114.7 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If you want to say its free dpulse/u-turn fodder thats a different story, but neither of these mons safely switch-in.
I can also understand concerns with its damage output, especially if you're gonna use mega latios over mega latias, but mega latios is not a wallbreaker. It isn't kyurem-b, mega medicham, or tapu lele, and if you're comparing mega latios's firepower to those mons, then yeah its not gonna look good. Mega Latios is offensive glue, similar to pokemon like z-move heatran or z-hurricane/focus blast torn. It loosely checks a lot of stuff while keeping a solid offensive presence, something which mega latias lacks, and being able to immediately threaten out mons like mega medicham, kyurem-b, zard-x, unboosted gyarados etc with a powerful draco as opposed to a t-wave is really valuable.

I think mega latios is fine where it is, and I wouldn't put it on the same level as something like zard-x, who has a much worse speed tier, needs hazard control, and just checks a lot less (better offensive presence in exchange for this though) or smth like pinsir who only fits on very specific teams and needs a good amount of support to do much.

 

[Archer Kirby]

For my own nomination I feel Maggron should move up from C to C+

Mega Slot: While Mega Sab is still the best Mega for stall, I feel like the rise of Mawile in addition to Z-Heatran amongst other threats give less (although just slightly) of a reason to use it while Maggron is enjoying the rise of pokemon it can easily deal with.

Physical Attackers: Maggron is great right now due to so many Physical threats getting more common such as Mega Mawile which can give stall an extremely hard time since limited switchins exist and Bulu. It also loves the fact that Kartana is carrying Z-Giga Impact sometimes for Zapdos meaning there is less chance of Z-Sacred Sword which even then doesn't OHKO but does get close. In addition, it can wall a bunch of other threats that can just give stall a hard time such as Z-Kyub or Band TTar and is capable of avoiding the 2HKO from anything Choice Band Hoopa-U does and can even function as an emergency Specs Lele check as it avoids the 2HKO from Moonblast and takes nothing from Psyshock which are only two moves Specs Lele mainly uses against stall.

Coverage: Maggron also has incredible coverage to hit whatever it needs to on the team such as Fire Punch for Kartana, Earthquake for Mawile and to prevent Heatran switching in, Avalanche to deal with Zygarde and to hit Landot extremely hard on the switch, Heavy Slam for STAB etc. Also keep in mind that this comes off a highly respectable 140 Base Attack which is just 5 less then Landot, so it hits harder then what people expect. It can also set hazards and due to its insane 230 Defence + Filter with the coverage mentioned earlier it can force out common setters like Clefable and Defensive Landot while setting rocks.

Disadvantages: Not running Earthquake leaves you bait for Magnezone which if specs, easily 2HKOs and the lack of Magic Bounce means pokemon like Chansey and Ferrothorn which love to set up hazards can become more annoying for the stall team. Maggron also has no recovery outside of rest so it is mandatory to pair with Wish Support and having to be careful not to let Maggron get too low, but with its insane Physical Bulk it can switch into most Physical attackers to eat the hit and receive the Wish healing.

Just gonna show some calcs below about how Maggron deals with the best Physical Attackers in the tier.

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Aggron-Mega: 119-141 (34.6 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Aggron-Mega Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 144-169 (57.3 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 282-333 (82.2 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Aggron-Mega Fire Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 228-272 (87.6 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Aggron-Mega: 77-91 (22.4 - 26.5%) -- 21.9% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Aggron-Mega: 52-62 (15.1 - 18%) -- possible 6HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 106-126 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- 65.8% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Aggron-Mega Earthquake vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 178-210 (49.3 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

 

[War Incarnate]

Tangrowth: A+ -> S
When you look at Tangrowth, the first thing that bulges out at you is its great overall bulk. 125 for physical defense and 100 for HP means that it can sponge up some hits from common threats such as Ash-Greninja, Mega Diancie, Tapu Koko, and Zygarde, and prepare to hit back hard. With the meta sifting into a more offensive approach, making offensive wallbreakers such as Kartana, Mega Heracross, and Mega Pinsir dominate OU, it seems like it would hurt Tangrowth, right? Well, that COULD be true, but you're wrong! Just because a pokemon got the muscles to sponge some hits doesn't mean they can't fight back. Same thing applies for Tangrowth. 100 for its physical attack may not seem like much, but once you see Tangrowth's 110 special attack, you're going to be running for the hills. As the meta here shifts into a more offensive approach, Tangrowth knows what's going on, and it can adapt to the shifting metagame surprisingly well. It's commonly known for running the notorious Assault Vest, which forces it to lock on to damaging moves, so while it does hamper Tangrowth's access to recovery, it boosts its special defense, and can run Rocky Helmet to punish prominent physical wallbreakers such as Mega Gyarados, Mega Heracross, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Garchomp surprisingly well thanks to Rocky Helmet. Those physical attackers lose 1/6 of their max HP from Rocky Helmet, so it's only ideal to think of the strategies that would root from that item alone. However, its terrible special defense leaves it reliant on Assault Vest, so it usually can't run Rocky Helmet. Its speed isn't any better, either, though. 50 for both its special defense and speed hampers its niche in OU. While its disadvantages hurt it, what do you expect from a very bulky, specially offensive tank? 100% DESTRUCTION. Its viability has changed a lot, with more physical wallbreakers on the rise, it can tank them pretty well, and prepare to retaliate back with some powerful special attack options such as Leaf Storm, Solar Beam, and Power Whip. I think it deserves a rise because many of the common physical wallbreakers often times have a trashy special defense and HP stat, and Tangrowth can take advantage of the low special defense stat on those pokemon and prepare a nasty surprise for them. Yes, its speed and special defense are problematic, but when you have a solid tank that can retaliate back with brute force, those don't really matter.

 

[Sickist]

Nominating Slowbro from B- to B


Edit (12/9/18): adding more to this so its an actual decent nomination and just spam mail..

Slowbro has seen alot more usage recently from what I've seen. It's a nice check to Physical Attackers like Zard X and Landorus Therian, Another Hawlucha answer, solid Heatran answer (you can never have too many heatran answers these days), and overall a nice fat mon. Bro can provide a solid mon to essentially any archetype (offense, balance, defense, [maybe stall? I'm not to sure on this one..]) As it brings a solid typing, a good stat spread, and overall great utility to the table. Regenerator is such a broken great ability to have as a defensive pivot, as it heals off a 1/3 of your health, therefore letting Slowbro be healthy throughout the match. It also has a few other options it can run (Probably not the best idea though) such as Calm Mind, Fire Blast, Grass Knot, Future Sight, etc. Overall, Slowbro may have problems in the tier which prevent it from reaching the heights of A ranking, Its stellar typing, utility, ability, and overall splash-ability provide the reason why I believe Slowbro is worthy of B rank.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

Tangrowth: A+ -> S
When you look at Tangrowth, the first thing that bulges out at you is its great overall bulk. 125 for physical defense and 100 for HP means that it can sponge up some hits from common threats such as Ash-Greninja, Mega Diancie, Tapu Koko, and Zygarde, and prepare to hit back hard. With the meta sifting into a more offensive approach, making offensive wallbreakers such as Kartana, Mega Heracross, and Mega Pinsir dominate OU, it seems like it would hurt Tangrowth, right? Well, that COULD be true, but you're wrong! Just because a pokemon got the muscles to sponge some hits doesn't mean they can't fight back. Same thing applies for Tangrowth. 100 for its physical attack may not seem like much, but once you see Tangrowth's 110 special attack, you're going to be running for the hills. As the meta here shifts into a more offensive approach, Tangrowth knows what's going on, and it can adapt to the shifting metagame surprisingly well. It's commonly known for running the notorious Assault Vest, which forces it to lock on to damaging moves, so while it does hamper Tangrowth's access to recovery, it boosts its special defense, and can run Rocky Helmet to punish prominent physical wallbreakers such as Mega Gyarados, Mega Heracross, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Garchomp surprisingly well thanks to Rocky Helmet. Those physical attackers lose 1/6 of their max HP from Rocky Helmet, so it's only ideal to think of the strategies that would root from that item alone. However, its terrible special defense leaves it reliant on Assault Vest, so it usually can't run Rocky Helmet. Its speed isn't any better, either, though. 50 for both its special defense and speed hampers its niche in OU. While its disadvantages hurt it, what do you expect from a very bulky, specially offensive tank? 100% DESTRUCTION. Its viability has changed a lot, with more physical wallbreakers on the rise, it can tank them pretty well, and prepare to retaliate back with some powerful special attack options such as Leaf Storm, Solar Beam, and Power Whip. I think it deserves a rise because many of the common physical wallbreakers often times have a trashy special defense and HP stat, and Tangrowth can take advantage of the low special defense stat on those pokemon and prepare a nasty surprise for them. Yes, its speed and special defense are problematic, but when you have a solid tank that can retaliate back with brute force, those don't really matter.

This mag be the biggest reach Ive seen in a long time in here. Growth is good at what it does but its far from the level of tran, gard, lando, etc. Hell each of those can straight up beat it with fairly common sets and its supposed to be a stop to them. Torn obliterates it regardless of what set it runs, gives free switch ins to Mawile...its fine where its at. The meta doesnt revolve around it in any capacity so Im really confused how its suddently s tier material

 

[robofiend]

I completely agree to an extent, but I do feel like Tangrowth is maybe a little better then A+...maybe A+ and a 1/2? idk.

Not even. Look at the other mons in A+: Mage, Mawile, SD Bulu and Zygarde are all incredibly threatening offensively. Mons like Zygarde and Ash-Gren are the reason people run Tangrowth so much, too. Mage, Mawile, and Zygarde have all been nommed in the past for S as well. Ferrothorn, Pex, Torn-T, Bulu, Growth are all amazing defensive mons as well - if you don't have something that can break annoying Pex cores you almost always lose to it, even if just by stall. Compared to Pex, Tang's longevity is limited, though its offensive capabilities are definitely better.

Tangrowth definitely isn't bad. It just isn't S by any stretch of the imagination. It faces competition as a Regen user from Pex, Slowbro, and Torn-T (though it does form nice cores with all of them). It faces competition from the other A+ bulky grasses in that Bulu checks Ash-Gren better and provides ambient healing to teammates, while Ferrothorn sets hazards checks Volt/Turn with its useful ability. Despite its decent offensive presence, it's still more passive against switch-ins like Clefable, Mawile, Heatran, or Torn-T than some of its competitors who can carry status moves or provide useful team support via hazards, leech seed, hazard removal, or set up.

I don't need to belabor this much more - Tang just isn't S rank, despite Ash-Gren's recent popularity and the number of Tangrowth around trying to stop it.