Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
This is like saying that mega venusaur doesn't counter mega diancie just because the latter can run psychic.
If we have to watch for all the possible sets, so the entire concept of counter needs to be removed because there is a very small percentage of people that use niche sets.
Also, in this case, this set is soo niche that the analysis talks about it in the other option section with a big warning, so yeah it doesn't beat all the gyara sets, but just for only one it's not the case to say that gyara is not countered,
I mean, it depends if the set you were asked to counter had Psychic or not. You don't have to watch for all possible sets, just the ones posted still, it's really simple bro.
I mean, it depends if the set you were asked to counter had Psychic or not. You don't have to watch for all possible sets, just the ones posted still, it's really simple bro.
Honestly this doesn't matter and i don't want this discussion to devolve even further. All of this was just about the fact that Zapdos is NOT a counter to Gyarados, and u shouldn't classify it as one cuz Waterium Z is slashed.
Scarf Lando switches in, removes an attack boost, and can revenge kill gyarados with Stone Edge after stealth rock damage. It also survives a +1 waterfall, which is important for two situations: where they get two boosts and outspeed you, or you miss with SE or don't secure the OHKO due to lacking prior rock damage.
Check (loses to EQ variants but is mostly consistent vs non-EQ variants)
Lanturn @ Assault Vest
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 244 Def / 68 SpA / 196 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Scald
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Discharge / Ice Beam
Lanturn is capable of taking on any non-EQ variant of Gyarados, taking +1 Hydro Vortex comfortably and having an almost-50% chance of OHKOing back with Discharge. A healthy Lanturn always wins out vs Skystrike variants that lack EQ due to not having the added power output of Aqua Tail on the off chance that Gyara is somehow at max max health and takes a low Discharge roll, but in all probability such a perfect scenario for the Gyara player is not going to be in play due to an abundance of external factors (and even if this perfect scenario does somehow end up happening vs Waterium Gyara, it needs to bank on getting two damage rolls if Lanturn is at full health anyway)
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 244 Def Lanturn: 230-271 (58.8 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
68 SpA Lanturn Discharge vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 304-360 (91.8 - 108.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
As for Lanturn's niche in the metagame, it is one of a tiny number of Pokemon that can take on both Greninjas (shits on transformation attempts) and Tapu Koko simultaniously without just being Volt Switch bait thanks to its access to Volt Absorb. The main reasons to use it over Gastrodon for this purpose are twofold: it takes pitiful damage from Grass Knot variants of Tapu Koko and it has access to Volt Switch, meaning it is much less of a momentum sap when used on more offensively inclined balance builds. Beyond this it just does what any fat water does while taking advantage of its resistances and stat spread to be a consistent pivot that functions extremely well vs shit like Torn-T, Specs Pelipper, non-CM Magearna, and any number of other Pokemon that either aren't relevant enough to warrant mentioning or which it is more situational vs.
The SpA investment allows Lanturn to 2HKO 16 SpD MZor after SR with HP Fire (which is basically just there to shit on Kartana switch-ins) and the Defense investment takes 2 Fusion Bolts from LOKB without Stealth Rock, meaning that full health Lanturn can pivot through it if it desparately needs to while just generally beefing it up on the physical side of the spectrum (seeing how it's not exactly missing anything in terms of special bulk anyway).
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 102-120 (26 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 96-114 (24.5 - 29.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 66-78 (16.8 - 19.9%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 81-96 (20.7 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 129-153 (32.9 - 39.1%)
252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 193-228 (49.3 - 58.3%)
68 SpA Lanturn Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor-Mega: 152-180 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 244 Def Lanturn: 165-195 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The replay isn't very good (it's basically me playing badly vs a bad team on lower-mid ladder lol) and doesn't show it off vs Gyarados sadly (it was grabbed during a laddering session that I was having for shits and giggles w/ gekki and jordy two weeks ago and I wasn't really thinking all that hard as I played), but it shows off Lanturn shutting down a Greninja nicely, which was kinda important for me to stand any chance of winning the MU. I've played other games where it gets more opportunities to shut down Greninja and where its cockblocked Koko and Gears and a load of other shit but I didn't actually save replays for any of them sadly so you'll have to take my word on that one.
Latias @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Stored Power
- Thunderbolt
Mega Latias is bulky enough to survive all Gyarados's STABs at +3 Atk, has immunity to EQ and OHKOs Gyarados with Thunderbolt. However, M Latios fears +1 Z-Bounce, though it has a good chance to survive it.
0 SpA Latias-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 344-408 (103.9 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 324-382 (89 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+3 252 Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 288-339 (79.1 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dont know where random is but since I'm Co-host I'll set up a new week while waiting for him to pick winners when he comes back. Since I dont see mega Latios in the Archive we'll go with that. Sorry things took so long to update
Explanation: Pretty prominent mega as of recently despite the presence steels and Fairies. Its easy to see why thanks to great typing that lets it check a wide variety of threats such as keldeo, Gyarados, landorous and other offensive threats while dealing problematic mons like heatran and Toxapex with its great power while avoiding the drawbacks that life orb latios have. Psychic and Earthquake let it handle a wide variety of threats offensivly and from there the 3rd move slot comes down to team choice. Ice beam is a great catch all and beats the bulky grounds while meteor acts as a nuke if you can outpredict fairy players. Hidden power fire Functions as a lure for the likes of ferrothorn, mega zor etc. Last slot goes to recover to ensure it can continue to check the things its supposed to through out the game.
Goodluck this week and I'm hoping Random Passerby comes back soon
Gastrodon can easily take any of Mega Latios' moves, only having to watch out for Psychic into Draco Meteor if Stealth Rock and atleast 1 layer of Spikes is up, which is a fairly specific situation.
Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 104 Def / 156 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Heavy Slam
- Flamethrower
Mega Latios has not enough power to break through Celesteela, which can do a lot of damage to the dragon withwith Heavy Slam, or steal it some hp, with Leech Seed
252 SpA Latios-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 132-156 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latios-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 105-125 (26.4 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 130-154 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 130-154 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Weavile @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit
Weavile counters Mega Latios unless it's running Draco, and even then you prevent it from getting more than 1 kill at the best. Latios falls over to Crash or Knock so you can fairly comfortably trap it as even if they stay in, unless they're Draco, they can't OHKO you, and Pursuit out damages Roost even if they don't switch.
252 SpA Latios-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 283-334 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Latios-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 176-208 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 392-464 (130.2 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 302-356 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 186-222 (61.7 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 40 Def / 220 SpD
Calm Nature
- Roost
- Scald
- Defog
- Toxic / Haze
Calcs:
252 SpA Latios-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Mantine: 144-171 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latios-Mega Psychic vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Mantine: 100-118 (26.8 - 31.6%) -- 27.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
You come in on anything, even with Rocks up, and Roost as Latios has to switch or get Toxic'd. The rise of stuff like Volcarona and Mega Zam (which is running Psychic over Psyshock to hit the standard Bold Clef harder) is also great because Mantine is a fantastic answer (Gastrodon gets destroyed by Giga Drain/Energy Ball from the aforementioned threats) to any special attacker that doesn't carry Electric coverage. Yes, being weak to Stealth Rocks sucks and Mantine has very little offensive presence, but a hard stop to Volcarona, along with Stored Power Mega Lati@s and Clefable, as well as CM Reuniclus and non-Thunderbolt Magearna is great.
Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Protect
252 SpA Latios-Mega Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 244-289 (80.5 - 95.3%) -- not a KO
Sableye recovers and Burns Latios or hit hard with Foul Play, Knock Off also does a decent chunk to force a Recover
I'm not dead (yeah!) . I'm thinking about that ; I have not discussed this with anyone yet but I'm thinking of handing this project to someone else if they are interested. Reasons being after moving, the Internet connection is terrible and I find myself lacking motivation to play through many DCs, thus losing a lot of metagame progression. I won't quit Smogon completely but even logging into the site and browsing a few pages will take a few reloads. So sorry for the infrequent updates but yeah, I'm not sure what to do about the Internet connection. I can try to update the OP before handing over too.
EDIT: Those thinking of taking over can PM me or CoC
1. Im not nominating for host and am happy to continue my role of co-host should the new one wish it. I'll even step down if thats the new hosts wish. Reason is i already host break this team and im busy irl. So feel free to step up
2. Any new host me and random agree to will have to get mod approval as well.
3. The new host will take over after this week concludes so keep nominating.
4. I like fairy types, genocidal crazy waifus and have ambitions of galactic domination. interpret this as you will.
Anyway no posting about this. if you wish to nominate pm myself, random or a mod so as not to clog the thread
Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Water Shuriken
- Spikes
Ash Greninja serves as one of the tier's most consistent checks to mega latios - whether it has transformed or not, greninja is able to threaten mega latios out with dark pulse, whilst still being able to severely punish any potential switch by setting up a layer of spikes. Greninja also has the bulk to come in on latios' 4 most common moves - currently being earthquake, psychic, hidden power fire and ice beam, though it must fear switching into a draco meteor. Darkinium and Waterium Z are also good alternatives in the item slot, especially if your z slot is free, but you lose out on the guaranteed ohko prior to transformation.
=== Prior To Transformation:===
==Specs==
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 318-374 (105.6 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
==Z Crystal==
252 SpA Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 212-252 (70.4 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO *Notice the drop in immediate power*
=Z Move=
252 SpA Greninja Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 422-500 (140.1 - 166.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
=== Post Transformation:===
==Specs==
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 144-171 (47.8 - 56.8%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
*especially notable, as greninja is often forced to make 50 / 50's between dark pulse and hydro pump*
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 422-498 (140.1 - 165.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
==Z Crystal== 252 SpA Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 282-332 (93.6 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO =Z Move=
252 SpA Greninja-Ash Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 560-662 (186 - 219.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Greninja-Ash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 162-191 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
read last tidbit
Mimikyu @ Life Orb / Ghostium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough
- Shadow Claw
If Disguise isn't broken, Mimikyu can switch into any attack from M Latios, survive Psychic - the strongest of M Latios's attacks that can hit Mimikyu - and retaliate with LO-boosted Play Rough or Never-Ending Nightmare.
252 SpA Latios-Mega Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mimikyu: 165-195 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 330-390 (109.6 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Check (loses to EQ variants but is mostly consistent vs non-EQ variants)
Lanturn @ Assault Vest
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 244 Def / 68 SpA / 196 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Scald
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Discharge / Ice Beam
Lanturn is capable of taking on any non-EQ variant of Gyarados, taking +1 Hydro Vortex comfortably and having an almost-50% chance of OHKOing back with Discharge. A healthy Lanturn always wins out vs Skystrike variants that lack EQ due to not having the added power output of Aqua Tail on the off chance that Gyara is somehow at max max health and takes a low Discharge roll, but in all probability such a perfect scenario for the Gyara player is not going to be in play due to an abundance of external factors (and even if this perfect scenario does somehow end up happening vs Waterium Gyara, it needs to bank on getting two damage rolls if Lanturn is at full health anyway)
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 244 Def Lanturn: 230-271 (58.8 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
68 SpA Lanturn Discharge vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 304-360 (91.8 - 108.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
As for Lanturn's niche in the metagame, it is one of a tiny number of Pokemon that can take on both Greninjas (shits on transformation attempts) and Tapu Koko simultaniously without just being Volt Switch bait thanks to its access to Volt Absorb. The main reasons to use it over Gastrodon for this purpose are twofold: it takes pitiful damage from Grass Knot variants of Tapu Koko and it has access to Volt Switch, meaning it is much less of a momentum sap when used on more offensively inclined balance builds. Beyond this it just does what any fat water does while taking advantage of its resistances and stat spread to be a consistent pivot that functions extremely well vs shit like Torn-T, Specs Pelipper, non-CM Magearna, and any number of other Pokemon that either aren't relevant enough to warrant mentioning or which it is more situational vs.
The SpA investment allows Lanturn to 2HKO 16 SpD MZor after SR with HP Fire (which is basically just there to shit on Kartana switch-ins) and the Defense investment takes 2 Fusion Bolts from LOKB without Stealth Rock, meaning that full health Lanturn can pivot through it if it desparately needs to while just generally beefing it up on the physical side of the spectrum (seeing how it's not exactly missing anything in terms of special bulk anyway).
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 102-120 (26 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 96-114 (24.5 - 29.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 66-78 (16.8 - 19.9%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 81-96 (20.7 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 129-153 (32.9 - 39.1%)
252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 193-228 (49.3 - 58.3%)
68 SpA Lanturn Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor-Mega: 152-180 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 244 Def Lanturn: 165-195 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The replay isn't very good (it's basically me playing badly vs a bad team on lower-mid ladder lol) and doesn't show it off vs Gyarados sadly (it was grabbed during a laddering session that I was having for shits and giggles w/ gekki and jordy two weeks ago and I wasn't really thinking all that hard as I played), but it shows off Lanturn shutting down a Greninja nicely, which was kinda important for me to stand any chance of winning the MU. I've played other games where it gets more opportunities to shut down Greninja and where its cockblocked Koko and Gears and a load of other shit but I didn't actually save replays for any of them sadly so you'll have to take my word on that one.
It's a cool set, but wasn't there just like 8 posts about how Zapdos isn't a counter because water-z is slashed? EQ isn't even slashed it's just standard on gyara.
It's a cool set, but wasn't there just like 8 posts about how Zapdos isn't a counter because water-z is slashed? EQ isn't even slashed it's just standard on gyara.
Was just basing it on the slashing that he used in the topic post.
Also I explicitly stated it was a check because it loses to/is shaky vs some variants. It wasn’t hugely serious anyway (I’ve p. much quit mons outside of the odd for-fun game that invariably reminds me about why I quit); I just had an excuse and decided to take the excuse because I’d been using it to good effect for fun a week or two prior+I wasn’t gonna get a better one any time soon.
Tapu Lele is one thing Latios hates facing and it doesn't have to worry about boosted Psychic since Latios floats so its Psychic doesn't even get boosted lmao. Unfortunately, Lele takes a metric ton of damage from Earthquake and even has a (high) chance to be 2HKOd by it with stealth rock up so it can be worn down rather quickly, so it is more of a check than a counter.
4 Atk Latios-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 115-136 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- 70.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 296-350 (98.3 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO