Resource USUM PU Viability Rankings

TJ

Banned deucer.
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Bellossom B-> B

LordST and Uberskitty have covered this nom already but I think Bellossom is becoming more of a potent threat, having just what it needs in its arsenal to be an annoyance to a load of teams. Bellossom has surprisingly solid bulk, allowing it to set up on an array of threats in the meta such as Gurdurr, Kingler, Spiritomb, Hitmonchan, and Ferroseed. Thanks to Strength Sap, Bello carves a very relevant niche for itself that works amazing alongside Quiver dance, giving it a form of reliable recovery and also allowing it to set up more easily against physical attackers. Moreover, breaking past conventional Grass-type checks such as Alolan Exeggutor, Skuntank, and Drampa, and Pokemon that can run Toxic, with Moonblast and Safeguard are also excellent tools that separate Bello from Liligant. In conclusion, the departure of Magmortar and Archeops has also helped Bellossom shine and I think a rise to B will reflect its presence in the metagame.

More noms coming soon tm
 
Hi I'm that Ferroseed guy, now posting again!

A- ----> A (I know this nom didn't get enough votes last time but I'd like to revisit this one)
B+ ----> A-

Slow, heavy-hitting wallbreakers have reached a point in the metagame where they have proven exceedingly difficult to prepare for due to lacking solid switch ins outside of a few niche and lesser splashable Pokemon, and without those answers, they can and will effortlessly secure a kill each time they are able to come in and click a move. We have all at this point acknowledged Aurorus and Eelektross (though I consider this a little different than the other three since it does less outright killing and more just breaking down stuff and guaranteeing momentum) to be among the main players of this group, but 2 other Pokemon that are underestimatingly, yet still play this game quite well are Exeggutor-Alola and Aggron. These Pokemon are also an absolute menace to switch into without the few hard checks to them, and even they are prone to be worn down.

Exeggutor-Alola's Choice Specs set pretty much has overshadowed Drampa in recent times. Not only that, it has essentially a free slot in which it is able to choose what it wants to do, whether it'd be a secondary Grass-type move in Giga Drain for recovery (which is great since this mon offers check to a lot of relevant stuff if you're able to keep it healthy), Sleep Powder to severely cripple certain Specially Defensive switch ins like Clefairy, and perhaps a few other options. Otherwise, teams are extremely hard-pressured to deal with its dual nuke options in Leaf Storm and Draco Meteor (even clef is often 2HKOd by Leaf Storm, an impressive feat in and of itself), and just creates this game where you have to be on top with your predictions against it, or otherwise just lose a mon. Even if you know it's going to click Leaf Storm as opposed to Draco Meteor, Grass resists such as Skuntank, Oricorio, and Weezing are not reliable switch ins whatsoever and are prone to dying outright after some prior damage.

Another important factor to consider is its defensive utility thanks to its typing; Exeggutor-Alola secures a breaker and check to Kingler, Eelektross, Lilligant, Bellossom, Lurantis for offensive teams, as well as an offensive threat that can completely negate Ferroseed's only form of recovery game, all while invalidating Gastrodon thanks to how freely it switches into it. This is a great amount going for it, especially when you consider that this set has a lot more early-game and mid-game presence compared to its OTR set. That having been said, while I think Specs is Eggy's most threatening and consistent set right now, the OTR set still have plenty of magnificent cleaning potential and a great match-up vs offensive, and is quite literally Trick Room's savior.

Aggron is an absolute wrecking ball as an offensive threat, and while it is frequently compared to Aurorus, one major thing going for it is how fantastic it is at functioning as an anti-meta of sorts to how teams have been adapting to Aurorus itself. It takes advantage of a vast amount of defensive answers to Aurorus in Type Null, Munchlax, fatter variants of Alolan Sandslash, and Clefairy, and has a much better match up against stall and fatter teams in practice. It also retains the ability to come in relatively easy vs Oricorio-Sensu, Skuntank, non-Earthquake Regirock, and Mesprit, and arguably has much better survivability due to its lack of a Stealth Rock weakness and immunity to Toxic Spikes in a metagame where Weezing is quite prevalent. The aforementioned adaptations to Aurorus have also made Head Smash spam arguably even less punishable when compared to Blizzard, which is huge considering Head Smash kills almost everything. Sets that aren't Choice Band also have a lot of potential and further add to Aggron's unpredictability, as a lot of defensive Pokemon it easily capitalizes on are crippled severely against it, and Ferroseed tends to have an even worse match up against those sets due to its ability to switch moves. Jolly nature is also an interesting approach to take since those variants also outspeed Aurorus and most common AV Lanturn sets.

These two Pokemon are scary, and in my opinion make up the big 4 (or 5, if you include Kingler but I feel it doesn't count because it frequently runs Agility lol) of PU's top slow breakers right now, and I think moving Eggy and Aggron up right now definitely serves to highlight their threat level well.

A- ---> A
Contrary to popular belief, Lanturn has always done a good job at holding together the teams that use it together to the point where I feel that just leaving it to A- doesn't really do its consistency, splashability, and how much it accomplishes in an average match justice. Its set of resistances and serviceable special bulk has proven even more viable given how effective it is at checking Pyroar, Oricorio-Sensu (not to mention you invalidate FatSensu entirely with Discharge, a perfectly valuable filler option on just about any set, including AV and Specs), Swanna, and Aurorus. To expand more upon the Aurorus match-up, Aurorus immediately has to shift its gameplan around dealing with Lanturn rather than mindlessly spamming Blizzard, giving teams some wiggle room for dealing with it just by having Lanturn on the team alone. It fits on just about every playstyle well due to its sets of options for supporting and how difficult it can be to take advantage of it directly, as switch ins like Clefairy and Ferroseed (barring Hidden Power Fire) means a lot less when you consider how simple it is to turn the momentum into your favor by clicking Volt Switch into a check in a metagame where there are no reliable Volt immune answers to Lanturn. Bulky offensive sets tend to have the most amount of traction, but its utility is valuable for a majority of teams. For these reasons I feel Lanturn can earn a spot moving up.

A ---> A-
Anty's previous post sums up most of my thoughts well, but another thing I wanted to add that makes me inclined to believe that it should drop even more is that I believe that A is just simply overselling Jynx when you consider its risk-reward and match-up issues. This is especially when compared to other equally ranked Pokemon that function similarly like Lilligant and Kingler, but of which feel more reliable to use and have fewer instances where they feel like dead weight thanks to the match-up. They also have better options for working around our top Choice Scarf revenge killers between Agility and Lilligant's extra speed option in Z-Sleep Powder (which is underrated but an undeniably scary that can mean the difference between winning a game and cutting a sweep short). Lilligant and Kingler also tends to require less support for to initiate a sweep or safe kill, whereas Jynx tends to require a combination of the removal of Choice Scarf users that are above the Speed of 95 (which is pretty much the standard outside of Primeape, which speed ties), reliable Pursuit trappers, and even powerful priority users like Hitmonchan and Lycanroc. Finally, I think it's important to note that a lot of the adaptations made towards dealing with Aurorus tend to often overlap with dealing with Jynx, since their checks and counters are surprisingly similar and there isn't much difficulty picking them off with similar options when it comes to offensive pressure/revenge killing. That having been said, Jynx is still a notable threat, but I simply don't feel that it's at the level of anything below A-.

A+ ---> A
Swanna is an interesting case. On paper it has the options that would seem as if it's the perfect offensive Pokemon since it's rather fast, has a good Z move, has good set variety, and a fantastic dual typing offensively that few teams are really ready for. While it has those options, in practice, the fact that most teams are slapping one of Clefairy, Eelektross, Lanturn, and Choice Scarf Togedemaru, which are often good options for pressuring it defensive and are able to function solidly as good switch-ins to most of its sets. Furthermore, Swanna's lack of initially power is fundamentally problematic when you consider its general frailty, meaning there are quite a few situations in which it will risk dying outright in trades in which it isn't able to KO something like Regirock, Aurorus, Offensive Mesprit, Silvally-Dragon, and many other bulky stuff that can hit Swanna hard in return, making it unreliable offensive checks to a lot of these threats. It's lack of bulk also makes it much less reliable at checking the Pokemon its typing allows it to check, like Kingler and even Gurdurr/Combusken. As for its sets, Scarf is probably its most consistent set next to special Defog/Sub Flyinium Z, as it offers a fast Defogger with a bit of utility for addressing some offensive threats, but I feel that it not only retains that problem with power, it definitely has its work cut out for it when it's weak to rocks itself, hindering its survivability considerably. Physical sets are interesting, but feel rather suicidal when its main STAB is still Brave Bird, is Stealth Rock weak, and some variants go without Roost.

I'll admit that this isn't a nom that is easy to articulate well, but due to the aforementioned reasons, I feel that A+ is a bit too optimistic for its ability to do its job reliably. It seems to lack that aspect compared to just about every other A+ Pokemon, and even in A, it does often compete with Hitmonchan for hazard removal for offensive teams since its utility is amazing as well. It's still a great Pokemon, but in terms of how easy it is to put into a team and how much work it puts in an average match without a lot of support, I believe A is more appropriate.


On Kingler, I would just say just move it up in all honesty. There are good checks to it, but barring Tangela, there are favorable situations in which Kingler has the potential to come out on top due to the majority of them falling to a +2 Superpower after a wee bit of prior damage. They're also not super splashable nor have the level of viability compared to say, Aurorus checks (though Kingler checks are all decently viable Pokemon too) due to them having a mutual issue with being taken advantage of by popular threats like FatSensu and the like. I will also say that I'm not too thrilled about seeing Aurorus ranked higher than Kingler, as I firmly believe that Kingler is a better and much more threatening Pokemon in the current metagame than Aurorus right now with even better match-up versatility. I guess I can be seen as biased since I think Aurorus is rather overrated as being a slow (barring Scarf, I guess), rocks weak breaker with lots of other exploitable weaknesses thanks to its typing has way bigger implications than people realize, and if you're in a match up where you can't frequently spam your best move and kill everything (like the Lanturn example I mentioned), then that exacerbates the issue. So I'd personally advise either move it up or swapping Kingler and Aurorus' current rankings. I honestly wouldn't be opposed with either options.
 
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MZ

And now for something completely different
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Next update will probably be after PUPL with a different format. Also this one got started a few days ago, so none of Jklioe's noms (Aggron was brought up in the council before the post) and no Klang, sorry. I also accidentally put down Tangela as only rising to B-, where it's currently at, and we're going to be revisiting that next time too. For now though, you can see votes here, just don't forget to click the link on the new page.

Spiritomb A to A+
Kingler A to A+
Stoutland A- to A
Aggron B+ to A-
Bellossom B- to B
Oricorio-Pom-Pom B- to B
Poliwrath B- to B
Probopass B- to B
Ludicolo B to B-
Victreebel C to C+
Manectric C to C+
Toucannon C- to C
Metang C to D
Rotom-S C to D
Lycanroc A- to A (this was brought up in council and strongly rejected)
Carracosta A to A-
Floatzel B+ to B
Kabutops B to B-
Corsola UR to D/C-
Went 50/50 and aren't going through: Leafeon B- to C+, Roselia C+ to C

This was mostly an update about small changes to Pokemon we've had a bit more time to work with. Spiritomb and Kingler are full blown meta staples now, there's no getting around it, and Stoutland and Aggron have both performed admirably as strong new wallbreakers post-Mag and Arch (Stout can win the award for least relevant change though, enjoy it for 2 weeks I guess). After that, it's hard to say that much has changed in particular for these Pokemon, it's just that with time and experimentation people have figured out how to do a lot more with Bellossom, Pom-Pom, Poliwrath, Probopass, Tangela, Victreebel, Manectric, and Toucannon. Oh and a few things nobody's really given that experimentation to have dropped. On the rejected side, Water and Grass types are fun! Carracosta/Floatzel/Kabutops mostly seemed to be in the vein of people who didn't especially like/use them wanting them lower, and that can be valid as we saw with other nominations like Metang, but several people on council are a lot more experienced with the trio and all three were allowed to stay fairly solidly (well maybe Floatzel was close but not the other two whatsoever). As for Corsola, it's really just not shown much of a niche. It covers things for stall, but mostly Pokemon stall doesn't really struggle too badly with otherwise, and it puts out about zero offensive pressure. Combine that with a severe lack of strong games with it and this is nowhere near the level of consideration Shiinotic had. As for the grasses, Leafeon and Roselia still just feel like they have more untapped potential in this meta, with certain strong Grass checks like Weezing and Drampa going slightly out of vogue and Sun/Tspikes being insteresting to mess with.

On a personal note, I really think people could do with some more Jynx experimentation. While not quite as devastating as it was a few metas ago, it still has the potential for some ridiculous sweeps under fairly easy to bring about circumstances and its usage has never been great in the first place. I don't know, if it really drops off during PUPL I'd reconsider but dropping it feels hard to justify at the current moment.
 

yogi

I did not succumb...
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Combusken: B- > B (or potentially higher)

The main Pokemon that I want to talk about is Combusken. As both HJAD and dibs can attest to, Combusken is rather unexplored in the current meta. Being able to beat common cores like Ferroseed + Clefairy, Mesprit + Hitmonchan, Weezing + Eelektross, etc., Combusken stands out as a unique sweeper and wallbreaker. Its current best set is by far Swords Dance with Firium Z, which can OHKO Defensive Mesprit, Weezing, and plenty of other Pokemon at +2, while also being able to severely dent the aforementioned Pokemon at +0. Being a Fire-type with a secondary Fighting-type STAB means that standard Fire-type checks such as Regirock and Type: Null sets it apart from Pyroar. Being able to basically clean through weakened teams late-game also means that Combusken can basically snowball once it gets a Swords Dance up against a defensive or passive Pokemon, especially if the opposing speed control is taken care of. All in all, this Pokemon needs to rise.

Marowak: D > Unranked


I remember Taskr talking to me a while back about Marowak, and trying to make it work with a fast Substitute set, which ultimately wasn't very successful. Simply put, Marowak isn't useful. Even on Trick Room based teams, you'll often have better options with things like Ursaring, Crabominable, or Mawile being better additions, as they have far more success breaking foes such as Weezing, Mesprit, and Gourgeist-XL. And with Trick Room being a rather unviable playstyle in the current meta, I really don't see much merit in running Marowak.

Togetic: D > Unranked


I have not seen this Pokemon used successfully in any team. The original argument was that it could function somewhat on stall teams, but no stall team worth its value would ever use it over other hazard removal like Articuno or Skuntank. Balance has better options in Bulky Oricorio-Pom-Pom or Sensu, and a better Fairy-type with Clefairy. Seriously this Pokemon is absolutely useless in a tier filled with Knock Off users and its passiveness just makes it a liability to almost any team trying to use it
 
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Aaronboyer

Something Worth Fighting For
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Stunfisk D --> UR

Yogi brought up two of the primary three Pokemon I would like to see unranked in the next VR shift. There isn't a whole lot to add onto what Yogi has already said. Something I would like to bring up is that Trick Room teams have limited team slots, so when Marowak isn't one of the best TR abusers, it kinda gets forgotten. Most TR structures I've seen recently include 2 TR users, 3 TR abusers, and one that can do both like Eggy-Alola. Of the 3 TR abusers, one is usually Crabominable and one is usually Ursaring. That only gives Marowak really one slot on one team archetype, an archetype that ultimately just isn't that great. Togetic is also really awful. It's weak to Stealth Rock, its extremely passive, overly reliant on its Eviolite, and loses to a majority of hazard setters.

One other Pokemon that I think should be unranked is Stunfisk. It's bulk is fair, but it's typing is quite awkward, so it can be hard to implement onto teambuilding. It's very passive, and for a Stealth Rock setter that doesn't have access to reliable recovery, you are much better off using something else like Torterra or Clefairy. There is a general consensus that Marowak and Togetic, even at D, fits on TR HO and Stall respectively. What is Stunfisk good for?
 
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Darkinium

the mighty nuaguunibi

Combusken from B- to B: Agree

Very solid Pokemon in my experience. Thanks to Speed Boost it can rip apart frailer, more offensive builds, and even balance teams lacking Clefairy or Lanturn can have a hard time finding switch-ins, with typical blanket special or Fighting-type checks such as Mesprit and Eelektross being easy to chip, especially considering Stealth Rock, their lack of reliable recovery, and Combusken's ability to blow them back with its Z-Move. Those special checks are also invalidated entirely if that Combusken in front of you is the SD variant. If it is, then gg.


Togetic from D to UR: Agree

This thing really has no niche. It's a heavily suboptimal Clefairy with Defog, except... Does it Defog well? No, it loses to pretty much every setter: Weezing, Regirock, Ferroseed, Clefairy... Does it wall well? No, because its weakness to Stealth Rock just stops it from accomplishing anything, as well as vulnerability to Toxic. Theoretically it might have a niche in "This thing does x's job slightly worse, in exchange for this extra perk", but really it does both jobs really half-assed.

EDIT:

Stunfisk from D to UR: Agree


Like Togetic, this thing just has no real niche. Its bulk isn't blowing anyone away, nor is its typing, lack of reliable recovery, difficulty to fit onto teams, heavy competition with other bulky Ground-type such as Mudsdale and Torterra... Did I miss anything?

Now for my own nomination:


Haunter from B+ to B

This thing is kinda eh, to be honest. First of all, it hates Pursuit. Skuntank and Spiritomb kinda just make it fall flat. I know you can theoretically play around them with coverage, Substitute and Destiny Bond, but Spiritomb gives 0 fucks about Sub, and the latter just forces you to sack yourself. Sure, you trades kills, but doesn't it suck when, after doing anything, you have to kamikaze and can't do anything more? If you're using its Choice Scarf set, then you're screwed even harder because you can't even switch for your coverage or utility moves after revenge killing something.

It's also not overwhelmingly powerful as a wallbreaker, rarely 2HKOing anything not weak to its STABs. Ferroseed, Regirock, Eelektross, and Lanturn are all Pokemon that can just come in on it. You still do a decent chunk, but for something that's supposed to be a wallbreaker, it's not particularly impressive.

Major frailty is also a big roadblock for it, almost certainly dropping to what's in front of it if it doesn't KO it first. This encompasses defensive Pokemon, too; I'm not even talking the big boys like Kingler and Stoutland. Pair this with the previous point, it not being super great at killing stuff, and the fact that it's vulnerable to faster Pokemon such as Swanna, Pyroar, and Choice Scarf users, and Haunter just isn't looking that great. Hear me out, sure nothing has changed much in the favor of this nom barring the not-so-recent Spiritomb; it's really just a matter of it, in my eyes, being higher than it deserves.
 

Togedemaru from A- to A+/A

Just a quick nomination that is long overdue. Togedemaru is an amazing scarfer in the current metagame, widely considered to be the best choice scarf abuser in the tier. Most people enjoy it for it's fast U-Turn, being able to outspeed another popular scarfer in Primape, but also Jynx, which is often a pain to deal with after one Z-Lovely Kiss. With Iron Head/Zing Zap it also brings unique stab moves with it that are hard to check + the chance to flinch often comes in handy.
Although, what most people don't realize is that Togedemaru also bring amazing defensive utility to your team. It checks Mesprit, Clefairy, Sensu consistently and it's also a soft check to Aurorus which is an underrated trait, because you usually can count Aurorus' switchins on the fingers of one hand.
 

yogi

I did not succumb...
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Togedemaru > A: Definitely

While I'm unsure about it going to a+, it's fair to say Togedemaru is the best Choice Scarf user in the tier. Being a check to both Lilligant and Jynx, the former of which has seen a boom in viability recently, makes it amazing right now, especially with its access to U-turn. It is able to revenge kill a load of Choice Scarf users, especially Primeape, Jynx, Aurorus. I haven't got much more to say about it that GZ hasn't, but the slot compression that it offers is fantastic.
 

Darkinium

the mighty nuaguunibi

Togedemaru from A- to A/A+: Agree

There's nothing much to say about this, it's just 100% our best scarfer. It outspeeds the big 95 speed tier, bopping Primeape, Lilligant, Jynx, etc. U-turn for pivoting, and a fairly customizable 4th slot. Togedemaru's ability to soft-check and act as a one-time switch-in to certain threats such as Oricorio-Sensu, Aurorus, and Mesprit also proves really valuable to some teams. This is definitely on par if not better than stuff like Primeape and Hitmonchan.
 
Komala C- > D/UR
Komala’s job as a spinner is hard to justify. Nearly every viable spin blocker in PU has a way to play around Sucker Punch whatever it’s Substitute, a status move, or simple prediction. Komala also loses to a good chunk of rockers, namely Ferroseed who eats it up and just chips it’s HP away every time it attempts to remove hazards. The best spinner in the tier already fulfills it’s role with better bulk, and has an easier time against most top tier rockers not named Clefairy, and even does better against spin blockers. Komala doesn’t support much for the team and ends of being outclassed by most normal types, so it’s only niche is Rapid spin which isn’t helpful when you lose to a plethora of rockers.

Ninetales C- > D
Ninetales’ niche is too small to be considered relevant. Pyroar already outdoes it’s role better and doesn’t need to setup in order to deal harm to the opposing team. Ninetales’ average attack power and lower speed is harder to justify for the fox.

Noctowl C- > C/C+
Going back to another Normal/Flying Type, we have Noctowl. I have noticed that the meta has gotten more based off of balance. The meta is noticeably resorting to balance with Primeape running things like Encore more and losing Archeops and Magmortar a while ago. Noctowl was hyped up a bit when USUM blessed it with Hurricane to come in conjunction with Tinted Lens. This is because it allowed Noctowl to be a niche wallbreaker. It arguably does it better than ever now with less people being prepared for it. After rocks, Specs Hurricane has no switch-ins except for Togedemaru which is 2HKOd by Hyper Voice. Noctowl justifies itself over the other top tier flying types Swanna and Sensu by sporting decent special defense and being less vulnerable to Pursuit (A.K.A Skuntank the menace).

Turtonator C > B-
Turtonator is in a better spot as a Shell Smasher than Carracosta imo cause of the omnipresence of Ferroseed. Fire/Dragon/Grass coverage is unresisted in the current meta and it easily takes advantage of current meta trends thanks to its defensive typing and surprisingly solid bulk to setup and potentially sweep.

Calcs.

252 SpA Skuntank Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Turtonator: 102-120 (39 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

192+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Turtonator: 85-102 (32.5 - 39%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO (Fire Blast has a high chance of OHKOing after rocks)

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Turtonator: 200-238 (76.6 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Primeape Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Turtonator: 218-258 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Wins 1v1 If Primeape isn’t scarf)

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Turtonator: 189-223 (72.4 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Gastrodon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Turtonator: 144-170 (55.1 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Lanturn Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Turtonator: 79-94 (30.2 - 36%) -- 42.9% chance to 3HKO (Turtonator 2HKOs with Dragon Pulse and beats non AV and Specs variants.

There are other mons that it can obviously beat and or setup on like Ferroseed, Eelektross, and even Clefairy but they don’t need any explaining cause it’s typing already does it for it. After a Shell Smash, Turtonator outspeeds Lycanroc and Primeape and all the top tier scarfers fail to OHKO and die as a result. Turtonator is incredibly threatening as it setups up on a lot of top tier mons and is unprepared for in the meta rn.

Alolan-Raichu B+ > Lower
Alolan-Raichu is certainly not in a good spot rn. It hates being Pursuit trapped, it hates every scarfer in the tier, it hates that Archeops is gone, it hates Ferroseed, Clefairy, Togedemaru, and Eelektross who have gotten even more usage in PU and all beat Alolan-Raichu nicely. Speed isn’t as important in PU as it was when it was ranked higher. Let it join Mudsdale or it’s other psychic brethren Mr. Mime.
 
Noctowl C- > C/C+
Going back to another Normal/Flying Type, we have Noctowl. I have noticed that the meta has gotten more based off of balance. The meta is noticeably resorting to balance with Primeape running things like Encore more and losing Archeops and Magmortar a while ago. Noctowl was hyped up a bit when USUM blessed it with Hurricane to come in conjunction with Tinted Lens. This is because it allowed Noctowl to be a niche wallbreaker. It arguably does it better than ever now with less people being prepared for it. After rocks, Specs Hurricane has no switch-ins except for Togedemaru which is 2HKOd by Hyper Voice. Noctowl justifies itself over the other top tier flying types Swanna and Sensu by sporting decent special defense and being less vulnerable to Pursuit (A.K.A Skuntank the menace).
Hey dude, I wanted to pick apart this nomination in particular since I believe the reasons that were used oversights a lot of the reasons why Noctowl has a worthwhile niche in the current metagame (as well as Swanna and Sensu matchup against Skuntank, Pokemon that have options to easily work around Pursuit and thus aren't as vulnerable as you say). While it's true that team styles have shifted towards balance and bulky offense, the Specs set that you speak of doesn't provide as much value when compared to it's Double Dance set in Agility, Work Up, Hurricane, and Roost, which has similar wallbreaking potential with the threat of its powered up Z-move in Hurricane to give it a one-time nuke while also addressing the move's reliability issues (and gives it recovery, which is relevant in context of a SR-weak mon that can use its typing to come in on some things like Lurantis and Bellossom). The Specs set seems dubious in terms of effectiveness compared to this one, and it struggles to really have a reason to be used over Drampa, which breaks through just as many targets (if not more) and has much better defensive utility in its typing and ability. The Double Dance set, however, combines its wallbreaking capabilities (because Noctowl doesn't need coverage thanks to its needs being offset by Tinted Lens), but instead of simply being a wallbreaker, it combines it with sweeping potential against offensive teams (at +2 Modest can outspeed everything up to Scarf Primeape), a niche that allows it to separate itself from other breakers as it gives it versatility against team playstyles in the way that few others can bring to the table. I highly recommend you try it out! Some relevant calcs:

+1 252+ SpA Tinted Lens Noctowl Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Regirock: 310-366 (85.1 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Tinted Lens Noctowl Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 300-354 (80.2 - 94.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

That said, I think Noctowl is better than every Pokemon in C- currently so I can get behind a moving up to C, but I don't think it's quite splashable or consistent enough to get higher than that right now.
 

Tack

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Komala C- > D/UR
Komala’s job as a spinner is hard to justify. Nearly every viable spin blocker in PU has a way to play around Sucker Punch whatever it’s Substitute, a status move, or simple prediction. Komala also loses to a good chunk of rockers, namely Ferroseed who eats it up and just chips it’s HP away every time it attempts to remove hazards. The best spinner in the tier already fulfills it’s role with better bulk, and has an easier time against most top tier rockers not named Clefairy, and even does better against spin blockers. Komala doesn’t support much for the team and ends of being outclassed by most normal types, so it’s only niche is Rapid spin which isn’t helpful when you lose to a plethora of rockers.

>considering its niche is wish+spin, not just spin...

Noctowl C- > C/C+
Going back to another Normal/Flying Type, we have Noctowl. I have noticed that the meta has gotten more based off of balance. The meta is noticeably resorting to balance with Primeape running things like Encore more and losing Archeops and Magmortar a while ago. Noctowl was hyped up a bit when USUM blessed it with Hurricane to come in conjunction with Tinted Lens. This is because it allowed Noctowl to be a niche wallbreaker. It arguably does it better than ever now with less people being prepared for it. After rocks, Specs Hurricane has no switch-ins except for Togedemaru which is 2HKOd by Hyper Voice. Noctowl justifies itself over the other top tier flying types Swanna and Sensu by sporting decent special defense and being less vulnerable to Pursuit (A.K.A Skuntank the menace).

>Specs is outclassed by drampa, HOOT's niche is Agility+work up which can actually break things. +1 252+ SpA Tinted Lens Noctowl Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Regirock: 310-366 (85.1 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Turtonator C > B-
Turtonator is in a better spot as a Shell Smasher than Carracosta imo cause of the omnipresence of Ferroseed. Fire/Dragon/Grass coverage is unresisted in the current meta and it easily takes advantage of current meta trends thanks to its defensive typing and surprisingly solid bulk to setup and potentially sweep.

>+2 252+ Atk Carracosta Superpower vs. 248 HP / 128 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 318-376 (109.2 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO so how does ferro mean anything to costa again? usually superpower is Z even.

-snip-
^opinions on above in bold italics
anyway, other noms
Toge to A/A+, ngl i thought this mon was A+ already, it more then deserves it, not much to add to this nom
Stunfisk D-> UR,agree, this mon has no use over either torterra or mudsdale
Haunter B+-> B, agree, i actually use this mon a lot and it leaves a bunch to be desired atm, as darkinium said it gets ohko'd by random defensive mons and doesn't do much damage to them in return, also uh, spiritomb eats it for breakfast lol.

idk i don't have much to mention and i don't like writing too much, pretty much came bc of the post that got quoted
 

BP

Upper Decky Lip Mints
is a Contributor to Smogon
Unranked---> D / C-


Ampharos has been getting more usage recently on the ladder due to its access to both Magnetic Flux and the ability Plus. Furthermore I've been experimenting with Ampharos as a bulky Rain Dance user and I've quite liked it. I enjoyed using both sets actually as I found success in both. Below I have both sets as well as a description and a few replays for each one.


Christopher Robin (Ampharos) (M) @ Damp Rock
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 76 SpA / 180 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rain Dance
- Thunder
- Counter
- Volt Switch


As a rain setter Ampharos is pretty mediocre at best but that isn't to say that I haven't had success with it. First and foremost Ampharos has some pretty decent stats minus its speed stat. Due to its decent bulk it is able to survive hits from even the strongest Physical attackers in the tier such as Aggron, Crabominable, and Kingler. Furthermore it's ability Static allows it to potentially cripple physically based offensive threats to your rain squad. Due to Ampharos' lackluster speed stat it allows it to utilize a slow Volt Switch which can bring your proper sweepers like Ludicolo, Poliwrath, and Kabutops in after it has set up rain.

Unfortunately Ampharos suffers from a lot of stiff competition from pokemon like Mesprit, Volbeat / Illumise, Lanturn, and Liepard. The only way you would want to fit Ampharos on a team is if you are already using Mesprit as a hazard setter and even then when you have the likes of Volbeat and Liepard it's hard to fit him on. The team I used was a little bit bulkier which is why Ampharos fit perfectly on.

Replay 1 (Amphy puts in work turn 1)
Replay 2 (against Sun)
Replay 3 (against Rain)



Sir Bobblehead (Ampharos) (M) @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Plus
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Magnetic Flux
- Charge Beam


Honestly as a wincon this thing reminds me a lot of CroMuk back in ORAS. That may be me over exaggerating but I really enjoy using this thing. Magnetic Flux in conjunction with its ability Plus allows it to essentially gain a boost to its defenses equal to that of Cosmic Power. That in and of itself is really nice when coupled with Ampharos' already decent bulk. What really puts the nail in the coffin is the fact that Ampharos has base Special Attack stat of 115 and when that is paired with Charge Beam it becomes a pretty decent wincon. Unfortunately it has no Reliable recovery outside of Rest which can be problem if you have not removed all of its checks.

Replay 1 (Amphy doing its job)
Replay 2 (Flexing)
Replay 3 (I lose because of a crit but accurately displays Amphy doing its job)

In conclusion I think that ampharos is more than deserving of the rank D. One might even argue C- is good place for it. I feel like the only reason why it isn't on the VR right now is because it was okayish in ORAS. Magnetic Flux more like Magnetic Flex am i rite?
 
It's been a while since I posted here, so I'm going to give my opinion on a lot of the recent noms here.

Combusken: B- > B (or potentially higher) -> Agree
Speed Boost allows this mon to become a massive threat as soon as its counters have been removed, allowing this mon to even outspeed scarfers after time. Paired with SD this mon has a lot of potential to become an easy wincon.

Togetic: D > Unranked -> Agree
In general, Togetic has always been a very passive Defogger. With the direction the meta is heading atm, which I feel is a much more offensive direction than defensive, I feel like Togetic struggles to perform it's role due to pressure and due to the fact that it loses 25% of its HP switching into rocks. This mon also becomes setup fodder for a lot of mons due to its poor damage output, and it does not help that Taunt from the likes of Pyroar or Probopass shuts this mon down, giving away any momentum that u might have gained. Its inability to break some Subs turns this mon into more of a nuisance than a valuable mon on ur team.

Stunfisk from D to UR -> Disagree
I'm not going to say that this mon is amazing, but I certainly think this mon has a niche in the meta. Even though it is certainly not the best SR setter in the meta by any means, Stunfisk's access to Static is something that is certainly of benefit to its slower, offensive teammates like Kingler. Stunfisk does an amazing job at spreading Paralysis, and it is one of the few SR setters that has a good matchup against a lot of the Hazard Removers in the meta. It punishes Spinners with its ability Static, and it has a good matchup against Skuntank and Swanna. While it does not have a good matchup against other hazard removers like Shiftry and Lurantis and one could argue that a spin blocker like Sensu would be better, I think Stunfisk is not completely useless in this meta atm. I have also seen this mon being used as a SR setter on some Rain teams, and while Mesprit is a much better SR setter on rain teams, this mon can be viable in some situations where u need an Electric-type switchin, as people often wait until the Rain is gone before sending in their Electric-type mons to revenge kill.

Haunter from B+ to B -> Agree
Tbh, I could see this mon later dropping to B-, as the meta atm is not very favourable for this mon. Between Skuntank and Spiritomb, Pursuit trappers are almost ran on every team, and unless u can play around this very well Haunter is not of much value to u. Its damage output is also incredibly low compared to that of the likes of Sensu or Tomb. Even if u do finally manage to pick up a kill with this mon, all it takes is for one Pursuit trapper or a faster offensive mon to revenge kill this mon. I would say that WoW Hex sets seem like the best sets for this mon, however one could argue that Misdreavus is a better option for these sets a lot of the time, unless u are looking for a more offensive option.

Togedemaru from A- to A+/A -> Agree
There is no denying that this mon has been performing as an incredible scarfer in the meta atm. Its amazing typing paired with its incredible Speed stat make it a very good Revenge Killer, and it has ok bulk too. While it can be easily countered by Steel-types like Ferroseed, the momentum this mon can provide is of massive value for ur team too. Overall this is a solid mon and I would lean more towards A than A+ for now.

Komala C- > D/UR ->Disagree
I feel like a drop to C- would be acceptable for this mon, but falling to D or UR is too big a drop for this mon. Yes a lot of Ghost-types have a way to play around Komala's Sucker Punch and yes it has a poor matchup against almost all of the rock setters in the meta, but you are also forgetting about the momentum this mon provides too outside of being a Spinner. It's ability Comatose is very useful on many Balanced teams that do not have any mons immune to Poison or Burn, letting Komala switchin against a lot of bulkier mons that depend on inflicting statuses to chip down your pokemon, like Weezing and Pyukumuku. From here, Komala has the opportunity to either Rapid Spin or to Uturn, which gives you an upper hand against the opponent if they chose to switch, allowing you to even bring in Wallbreakers like Aurorus or Pyroar for free sometimes. Although Komala is not the best hazard remover in the meta, it is one of the only Spinners that can pivot with Uturn.

Ninetales C- > D -> Disagree
Ninetales and Pyroar are very different, as the former is a Setup mon and the later is a Wallbreaker. Ninetales will not be as good as Pyroar when u first switch it in, but its ability to set up Nasty Plots, or even Calm Minds, allow it to quickly become a big threat. Ninetales ability to switch moves is also of benefit to it, allowing it to sometimes stay in against stuff like Lanturn and Gastrodon, if they have been chipped down. Ninetales ability Flash Fire is also very useful, as it can punish choiced varients of Pyroar, while also giving Ninetales a boost on its Fire-type moves. Even though Pyroar may seem better in some late game situations, Ninetales is still a very valid mon as it checks things that choice locked pyroar would not check.

Turtonator C > B- -> Disagree
Even at +2 speed, this mon is still slow af. It's also hard to get this mon to +2, when it loses 25% switching in if rocks are up, and it has to take a hit to set up its shell dance. Even though Carracosta is as slow as this mon, and as frail, Carracosta's higher Attack and access to Sturdy gives us a better reason to use it. I would also go as far to argue that there are less Defensive mons in the meta than Specialy Defensive mons, making Carracostas ability to sweep that bit greater. Carracosta's acess to priority in Aqua Jet is also something that Turt lacks, making it very weak to priority.

Ampharos Unranked---> D / C- -> Disagree
So the Rain Set; while it does work with Counter, I would argue that Stunfisk would be better than Ampharos, as it can set rocks as well as Rain. Its immunity to opposing Electric types is also beneficial to Rain teams, as it prevents oppositing Electric-types from pivoting on it with Volt Switch. While Ampharos is also a nice pivot with Volt Switch, Stunfisks greater bulk and access to SR make it a better choice imo. In terms of the second set, I can't really say much about it other than the fact that if it were viable, it would lose the main thing going for it, which i would say is the element of surprise. This set depends heavily on the opponent sacking their Ground-type Pokemon before it can do anything, and with no way of trapping Ground-types, this would be very hard to achieve if this set did become viable.

My Noms :
Silvally-Ghost C+ -> B-/B
On the topic of Offensive Defoggers, this is a mon that I think has become very good lately. Being immune to Fighting- and Normal-types, this mon can come in against Fighting- and Normal-types for free and use the opportunity to remove rocks or to pivot reducing something's Attack and Special Attack. Even if u choose not to pivot out, this mon still has a relatively high damage output chipping whatever switches in a bit. Since this Silvally is an offensive one, it usually tends to draw in bulkier mons as a switchin, making Wallbreaking partners a great matchup with this mon. Even though this mons role is a Defogger this Pokemon also has the added benefit of being immune to Rapid Spin which helps a lot in situations where u have ur rocks up and ur opponent does not. Overall the pressure this mon can provide on offensive teams, as both a pivot and a Defogger is amazing.

Mr. Mime B- -> C+/C
In terms of Mr. Mime's NP set, I feel like this set faces a lot of competition with Z Lovely Kiss Jynx. With better coverage, higher Speed, more bulk, and arguable a better ability, the reasons for using Mr. Mime instead of Jynx are slim. In terms of the Scarf set, while Mr Mime makes for a decent Revenge Killer, I feel like Mr Mime faces a lot of competition from Scarf Mesprit. With a higher base Special Attack, more bulk than Mr. Mime, and the ability to pivot with Uturn there are not much reasons for using this mon over Mesprit. The only thing this mon has going for it is it's Fairy-typing making it able to deal better with Dark-types than other Psyhic-types, however it is beaten in a 1v1 by our two main Dark-types, Skuntank and Spiritomb, thanks to Skuntanks Poison STAB and Spiritombs priority in Sucker Punch.
252+ Atk Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 142-168 (64.2 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 129-153 (58.3 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Even at +2, you end up in a situation where if u are chipped, you have to be careful of Sucker Punches killing u.
 
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Strongly disagree on Ampharos getting ranked
Support Ampharos moving up to D, not C-. The replays shown definitely indicate it is a serious wincon, albeit very outclassed. Bar crits, nothing can kill it when it sets up, and it's naturally bulky. It can also PP stall forever, which is an added bonus, and Electric coverage is always nice.
"Bar crits"
Ampharos is slow as hell and takes forever to setup. Assuming it is even given a chance to setup, it is going to be taking a lot of hits so there is a good chance that it will get critted at some point. Also, it just loses to anything with electric immunity. And there are better things for PP stall like tomb and cuno.
As for the Rain Dance set, I don't see what niche it has. There are simply much better choices for rain setting.
Ampharos Unranked---> D / C- -> Disagree
So the Rain Set; while it does work with Counter, I would argue that Stunfisk would be better than Ampharos, as it can set rocks as well as Rain. Its immunity to opposing Electric types is also beneficial to Rain teams, as it prevents oppositing Electric-types from pivoting on it with Volt Switch. While Ampharos is also a nice pivot with Volt Switch, Stunfisks greater bulk and access to SR make it a better choice imo.
I think that Stunfisk is generally a poor choice for rain teams and yet Conor is probably right about it being better than Amphy.
If Amphy does have some niche in the meta, it has not been discussed in this thread. Being a bad rain setter and a bad slow, bulky sweeper does not earn it even D rank imo.
 

Darkinium

the mighty nuaguunibi

Noctowl from C- to C/C+: Disagree

Outside of a couple things in the original post pointed out by others (namely that it was mostly based on Noctowl's outclassed Choice Specs set), I don't really feel that Noctowl has been underrated enough or affected by metagame changes to warrant a rise. Pre-setup it's easy to pressure between its SR weakness and its poor physical bulk, and it can't do a great deal without a boost under its belt. If you were able to get up a Work Up boost you're still pretty easy to pick off afterwards; if the opponent has a Choice Scarf Togedemaru, Pyroar, or remotely healthy special wall then cleaning via Agility is difficult as well. Overall, doesn't seem that great on paper and nothing has really happened to justify a rise.


Turtonator from C to B-: Disagree

Again, I don't see a real reason to raise this, still being easy to pressure thanks to an SR weakness and low Speed, not to mention it's still slow as balls after a Shell Smash and dropping to most forms of speed control. I suppose due to decent bulk it can set up a bit easier, but SR + chip + Choice Scarf/priority generally does the trick. Not much to say here.


Ampharos from UR to D/C-: Disagree

I don't wanna talk about the Rain Dance set given it's pretty much outclassed entirely by Mesprit and Volbeat, so I'll focus mostly on the Magnetic Flux set, the one which has also had the most discussion. Outside of being walled by all Ground-types (who have no reliable way of being trapped, unlike CroTomb and Magnet Pull in ORAS), I also can't really see this being able to be fit onto a team. As a bulky wincon it has competition from more consistent and easier-to-fit stuff like CroTomb or Clefairy (I reckon the latter could pull off a Calm Mind + Cosmic Power set, eclipsing Ampharos as well.) Like Akir said in Discord, if a Pokemon has to be built around with mounds of support, then it's not really worth ranking; D Rank mons should answer a need, not be the need.

Bringing up another nom of my own (made sure to get some opinions on it first, so I swear it's better than chan to a- lol):


Golem from B- to C+

My main argument is competition with Aggron as a CB breaker and difficulty to fit onto teams. Now, Aggron offers multiple perks over this thing, namely better physical bulk to check things such as Skuntank, an Ice resist, a Psychic resist, higher Speed, less exploitable secondary offensive typing and stronger Rock STAB. I think we can all agree dealing with Skuntank, Mesprit, Aurorus, etc. is a pretty damn good thing, as is a stronger attacking move. Although the higher Speed might not be super important, when using Jolly being able to outspeed Modest Aurorus and standard Lanturn makes a big difference. The fact that Golem's secondary STAB move is Earthquake is also annoying as it can be exploited by Pokemon such as Swanna and Oricorio-Sensu, unlike Aggron's Heavy Slam which chunks most non-quad resists. I find it kinda hard to find situations where I would like this over Aggron. Sure, it's immune to Electric, but drops to Eelektross's Giga Drain and is ousted by standard Lanturn. It doesn't have the quad-Fighting or Ground weaknesses but still doesn't beat Kangaskhan much better throughout a match. Overall, I just don't feel this has enough ground (no pun intended) over Aggron to stay in B-.
 
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Noctowl from C- to C/C+: Disagree

Outside of a couple things in the original post pointed out by others (namely that it was mostly based on Noctowl's outclassed Choice Specs set), I don't really feel that Noctowl has been underrated enough or affected by metagame changes to warrant a rise. Pre-setup it's easy to pressure between its SR weakness and its poor physical bulk, and it can't do a great deal without a boost under its belt. If you were able to get up a Work Up boost you're still pretty easy to pick off afterwards; if the opponent has a Choice Scarf Togedemaru, Pyroar, or remotely healthy special wall then cleaning via Agility is difficult as well. Overall, doesn't seem that great on paper and nothing has really happened to justify a rise.


Turtonator from C to B-: Disagree

Again, I don't see a real reason to raise this, still being easy to pressure thanks to an SR weakness and low Speed, not to mention it's still slow as balls after a Shell Smash and dropping to most forms of speed control. I suppose due to decent bulk it can set up a bit easier, but SR + chip + Choice Scarf/priority generally does the trick. Not much to say here.


Ampharos from UR to D/C-: Disagree

I don't wanna talk about the Rain Dance set given it's pretty much outclassed entirely by Mesprit and Volbeat, so I'll focus mostly on the Magnetic Flux set, the one which has also had the most discussion. Outside of being walled by all Ground-types (who have no reliable way of being trapped, unlike CroTomb and Magnet Pull in ORAS), I also can't really see this being able to be fit onto a team. As a bulky wincon it has competition from more consistent and easier-to-fit stuff like CroTomb or Clefairy (I reckon the latter could pull off a Calm Mind + Cosmic Power set, eclipsing Ampharos as well.) Like Akir said in Discord, if a Pokemon has to be built around with mounds of support, then it's not really worth ranking; D Rank mons should answer a need, not be the need.

Bringing up another nom of my own (made sure to get some opinions on it first, so I swear it's better than chan to a- lol):


Golem from B- to C+

My main argument is competition with Aggron as a CB breaker and difficulty to fit onto teams. Now, Aggron offers multiple perks over this thing, namely better physical bulk to check things such as Skuntank, an Ice resist, a Psychic resist, higher Speed, less exploitable offensuve typings and stronger Rock STAB. I think we can all agree dealing with Skuntank, Mesprit, Aurorus, etc. is a pretty damn good thing, as is a stronger attacking move. Although the higher Speed might not be super important, when using Jolly being able to outspeed Modest Aurorus and standard Lanturn makes a big difference. The fact that Golem's secondary STAB move is Earthquake is also annoying as it can be exploited by Pokemon such as Swanna and Oricorio-Sensu, unlike Aggron's Heavy Slam which chunks most non-quad resists. I find it kinda hard to find situations where I would like this over Aggron. Sure, it's immune to Electric, but drops to Eelektross's Giga Drain and is ousted by standard Lanturn. It doesn't have the quad-Fighting or Ground weaknesses but still doesn't beat Kangaskhan much better throughout a match. Overall, I just don't feel this has enough ground (no pun intended) over Aggron to stay in B-.
I disagree with a Golem drop. Sure, it's typing can be a nuisance and Ground stab can be somewhat easily exploitable, aggron also has to really on a much weaker EQ to even try to damage steel types well. Golem also has key resistances to Fire and Electric that Aggron simply cannot boast. On top of this, Aggron has less special defense and more notably, attack, letting golem hit harder with it's coverage. Aggron also has the burden of 2 4x weaknesses to ground and fighting, which gives golem a better match up against pokemon with those coverage like Regirock and Probopass.

Now for my own nomination:
Farfetch'd to C-/D rank
This is not a joke. I know what you might think. "Lmao Farfetch'd?! It's a shitmon and it's best stat is 90 attack, terrible mon" but in reality, once you can get a SD boost, which is easier than you think since many underestimate it, and combine that with it's signature item, Stick, Farfetch'd is suddenly a genuinely terrifying breaker. At +2, Brave Bird does insane damage especially when combined with Stick Crits, OHKOing many relevant mons. Leaf Blade slices through any Carracostas or rock types who think they can wall it, and gives it a critical hit always, if not almost always. Quick attack is surprisingly strong at +2 and is great for picking off things you couldn't quite kill, combine this with the ever common critical hits and it can be doing upwards of 50% damage to non resisted targets. However, Farfetch'd is not without it's downsides and that's why I'm suggesting it for a low rank for now. Firstly, It's speed is obviously an issue and it will get outsped a lot, but quick attack helps mitigate that a bit, second, it's best moveset is walled by Steel types, although leaf blade can seriously hurt most steel types like Aggron and Probo while boosted and Alolan Dugtrio thanks to Having grass neutrality, and thirdly, it can be difficult to set up SD at the right time, but with an answer to ferroseed (which your team should already have) and good timing to set up SD, Farfetch'd can truly become a terrifying breaker, especially with guaranteed crits thanks to Leaf blade and a wicked strong brave bird and quick attack that often crit as well.

TL;DR: Don't sleep on the duck
Replays and Damage calcs coming soon
 

Darkinium

the mighty nuaguunibi
I disagree with a Golem drop. Sure, it's typing can be a nuisance and Ground stab can be somewhat easily exploitable, aggron also has to really on a much weaker EQ to even try to damage steel types well. Golem also has key resistances to Fire and Electric that Aggron simply cannot boast. On top of this, Aggron has less special defense and more notably, attack, letting golem hit harder with it's coverage. Aggron also has the burden of 2 4x weaknesses to ground and fighting, which gives golem a better match up against pokemon with those coverage like Regirock and Probopass.
Here are some calcs of Aggron, uh, trying to hit some Steel-types:

252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 128 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 304-360 (104.4 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aggron: 384-452 (136.6 - 160.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sandslash-Alola: 272-322 (93.1 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 464-548 (152.6 - 180.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

From these calcs I honestly don't think breaking Steel-types is a trait unique to Golem.

I don't think Golem's Fire-type resistance counts for a great deal, either:

252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Golem: 169-199 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Golem: 113-133 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (This means Golem can only switch in once, and that's not even accounting for chip from checking other Pokemon.)

252 SpA Pyroar Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Golem: 189-223 (62.7 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Taunt Pyroar wins if you switch into a Fire Blast, as it does this the next turn.)

Of the two relevant Fire-types we have, Combusken and Pyroar, the Fire-type resistance is null against the former and of little help against the latter, making it a point of little meaning.

The point about stats isn't very effective either, seeing as Golem only possesses 5 more base SpD than Aggron, and the base 10 Attack increase is rather unimportant as well given it's quite small to begin with, and Aggron's 150 BP Head Smash and often 120 BP Heavy Slam overpowers Golem's 100 BP STABs.

Aggron can afford to run Chople and Shuca Berry to alleviate its weaknesses to Ground and Fighting, respectively, so Golem doesn't really have the edge over Aggron in checking certain Pokemon, either. Aggron still maintains a fair punch while doing so due to its high BP STABs.


Farfetch'd from UR to D/C-: Disagree

I feel the nomination kinda oversells this thing's ability to set up, dish out damage, and sweep. First off, 52/55/62 bulk is absolutely awful, and with very poor base 60 Speed and base 90 Attack, it's hard to force anything out to grab an SD, or do so by taking a hit. It can't threaten much out with strong priority, either, only offering a meek base 90, non-STAB First Impression, which is also one of the worst offensive typings in the game, Bug. Even after setting up, Quick Attack isn't doing much to stop anything faster than you:

+2 252+ Atk Farfetch'd Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 168-198 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Farfetch'd Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pyroar: 145-172 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Farfetch'd Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togedemaru: 81-96 (29.8 - 35.4%) -- 21.7% chance to 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Farfetch'd Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mesprit: 108-127 (35.8 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Farfetch'd Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swanna: 162-192 (55.6 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's way harder to sweep with this than practically any other sweeper like Carracosta or Absol, and has nothing to offer over them. Farfetch'd just requires too much support for very little payoff; having this anywhere on the VR would just be...

farfetch'd.
 
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Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
Hello, I would like to talk about some B +/./- rank mons, that I have all tried teambuilding with so as to not say complete shit, and here is my opinion.

Floatzel B+ --> B

As far as I know nobody ever uses this pokemon for a simple reason: it doesn't hit hard, and does almost everything worse than kingler. Even without Kingler in PU, I don't think it would be really used because it really doesn't hit hard, even with a choice band, so it struggles vs stuff like gurdurr and defensive mesprit. In the other hand, special sets with Lifeorb/Specs don't hit much harder and have big issues with the accuracy of hydropump and focus blast. Taunt doesn"t help much stallbreaking since it has poor defensive stats and will struggle vs clefairy's moonblast for exemple. Besides, the Z bulkup set is fun but quite niche since +2 AJ isn't that strong: this set isnt strong enough for wallbreaking, and SS carracosta is usually way better has a lategame cleaner.

Here are calcs to show that Choice scarf kingler hits harder than Band floatzel, and since it is also faster and bulkier, totally outclasses it.
Adamant scarf kingler: 252+ Atk Sheer Force Kingler Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 141-166 (38.7 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Jolly band floatzel: 252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 127-150 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO



Raticate-alola B+ --> B (put rat and absol together)

I would like to say "swap faticate and absol" but better put them both in B (absol is already B). If raticate alola is B+ because it is better than absol, i dont understand why since absol is just better. It has the same attack stat than Hustle rat and doesn't miss. Both have swords dance. So why is rat higher than absol? Maybe people think it has no switchin due to hustle, but hustle just helps giving it a good attack stat which absol already has.
Jolly Choice band rat: 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Raticate-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Colbur Berry Mesprit: 169-199 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO

Jolly Choice band absol: 252 Atk Choice Band Absol Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Colbur Berry Mesprit: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO

So band absol is more reliable than band rat, while SD absol can properly sweep because it doesn't miss like rat. The only relevant difference is rat having 77 speed and absol having 75, so rat outspeeds kingler. Otherwise Jolly absol still outspeed ada skuntank so it's ok. Z double edge is a one time nuke so idk if it is enough to say rat is the best SD sweeper: +2 LO absol is impossible to switch into and has playrough/superpower to hit gurdurr and regirock.

In a nutshell: use SD/band absol over rat, or use zangoose if you want the normal wallbreaking.


Poliwrath B --> B+

Several people have already said that poli was a good mon, and imo B isn't enough. It isn't a huge threat per se: decent offensive stats, fairly good defensive stats. But it is sort of an Anti-meta pokemon right now: as long as aurorus/aggron/kingler will be PU (i personally think aurorus is actually the least broken of the three now), poli will be good, or at least decent. It's a great glue for bulkyoffense and balance: I think it is the go-to alolan sandslash counter for balance, otherwise u are forced to put a scarf pyroar or a Machpunch user which aren't that easy to use since they can't directly switch into it (well, gurdurr doesn't like hail damage and LO/Z icicle crashes) and are very predictable: sandslash can just switch while u are forced to fireblast/machpunch unless u are addict to risky plays and end up getting 6-0d because ur oppo is dumb, predicts ur poor prediction or has another wincondition. Defensive poliwrath is also the most reliable choice band aggron switchin after gastrodon (bye gastro gl with mega -medichams and tapuleles), while being able to wall alolan-sandslash, kingler, AV hitmonchan, non banded skuntank, lycanrock etc.

Poliwrath can also run the famous subtoxic+focusblast set as a glue+stallbreaker, bulkup sets to counter crotomb and ferroclefs, or subpunch even though it isn't very good if kingler knows ur main attacking move is focus punch. A great mon imo that is always consistent with little support, provides a ton of support for many teams and is really more viable than stuff like musharna, floatzel and pinsir. Decent balance cores include spdef alolan-sandslash+poliwrath, while a BO core would be eelektross+poliwrath: as you can see they check a lot of stuff together, are great role-compressing cores and apply decent pressure on the opposing team.


Sorry, it was a bit long, thanks for reading!
 

Greybaum

GENTLEMAN, THIS IS DEMOCRACY MANIFEST
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Some thoughts on the aforementioned noms. Also, my first VR post. :blobnom:


Haunter from B+ to B: Agree
It has some great special attack and a decent speed tier, but with Skuntank and Spiritomb being some of the best and most splashable pokemon in the tier it really struggles to get more than one kill against a lot of teams. In addition to this, it struggles against blanket special walls such as Lanturn, Eelektross, and even Hitmonchan (which OHKOs it with an Ice Punch after rocks, preventing it from functioning effectively as a spin blocker). While it can chip away at these pokemon over time, it really struggles to find opportunities to come into the field due to its terrible defences - anything short of a choice locked fighting or ground type move will generally do too much for Haunter to handle. It's also easy to revenge kill for a lot of common scarfers not named Primeape, notably Pyroar, Togedemaru and Mesprit, whilst also being outsped naturally by Swanna, Persian-Alola and a few other pokemon.
Having said all that, it is pretty strong and has a decent speed tier - it can still function as a pretty effective late game cleaner and acting as a soft check to normal and fighting type pokemon like Type:Null, Throh and choiced Primeape is pretty nice so I wouldn't like to see it go much lower than B.


Combusken from B- to B: Disagree
Combusken is one of the better anti-meta pokemon right now, finding easy setup on Clefairy and Ferroseed and being impossible to revenge kill after one or two speed boosts. Despite this, I find it has a really difficult time setting up on much else beyond that specific defensive core, and while it has a good cleanup against offence it really struggles to find any pokemon on that archetype to set up on, being either knocked out in one hit or knocked into range of common priority moves like Mach Punch and even a resisted Sucker Punch. Without a boost, it really isn't all that strong and struggles to pick up kills on common pokemon like Kingler and Mesprit without heavy support. B is a good place for it, keeping it in line with similarly inconsistent sweepers like Absol and Kabutops.


Marowak: from D to Unranked: Agree

It has a niche on trick room teams, but I'm not convinced this factor alone merits being on the VR. Unlike similarly strong pokemon like Crabominable and Ursaring, Marowak is restricted specifically to trick room teams, and when you have a whole host of other pokemon to choose from I struggle to see why this mon is any more worthy of rank than Clamperl, Camerupt and Zweilous - other powerful pokemon that struggle to find a niche outside of trick room.
It may be slightly weaker than Marowak, but I also think Mudsdale might just be a better option on the majority of teams thanks to its superior defensive stats and coverage move in Heavy Slam.


Ampharos from Unranked to D/C-: Disagree
As a pivot it's heavily outclassed by many other electric types (Lanturn and Eelektross notably), and as a setup mon it can't touch ground types and requires far more setup than many other options that are, at present, better suited to this meta. Some examples are Type:Null, Gurdurr, Throh and Muk. While rarely seen, I also think this set is just straight outclassed by Curse Regirock, even if Magnetic Flux is a cool move.


Farfetch'd from Unranked to D/C-: Disagree
It's got terrible defences and doesn't do much damage without a boost, which it really struggles to get. I can see merit in a Choice Band First Impression but if you're really that desperate for priority there are much better pokemon you can already pick from. This is a really short explanation but there's not much more to say - it doesn't take any hits and struggles to dish them out.


Floatzel from B+ to B: Disagree
Sorry Ktut, I just feel like you're undervaluing Floatzel's power as a special attacker. While it faces heavy competition on the physical side from Kingler, its prowess as a special attacker is uncontested - Swanna lacks Hydro Pump (and by extension, the same power) and other options like Gorebyss and Ludicolo typically rely on a turn of setup before being able to start breaking due to their poor speed stat; an issue Floatzel does not have. While Floatzel suffers against the same blanket special walls I mentioned earlier when talking about Haunter (i.e. Lanturn, Eelektross and Hitmonchan), Floatzel has an advantage in that it can force out a lot more pokemon (e.g. Dugtrio-Alola, Pyroar, Lycanroc) thanks to its speed, and it doesn't have to worry about Pursuit users like Skuntank, allowing it to slowly chip away the aforementioned checks over time. Even dedicated water checks like Ferroseed and Gastrodon are nailed by coverage options in Focus Blast and Hidden Power Grass. Floatzel suffers a lot from Clefairy's presence, and like you said, it does find it hard to come in on attacks, but it's definitely still a strong wallbreaker and even in a post-Archeops meta still uses its speed to its advantage.


Raticate-Alola from B+ to B: Disagree
I think you misunderstand why Raticate is used over Absol - yes, in terms of power, Knock Off isn't much stronger than Absol's and certainly isn't worth the accuracy drop, but you neglect Raticate's powerful dual stab coverage in Double Edge/Knock Off which to my knowledge isn't resisted by any common Pokémon in the tier bar a few normal-resist Z wielding pokemon like Aggron.
Here's an example: 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Raticate-Alola Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 409-483 (117.5 - 138.7%)
This is a feat that Absol simply can't match.
It's weak to Mach Punch, and takes a lot of recoil from Double Edge, but it still manages to be a fantastic sweeper with Swords Dance, as well as a great wallbreaker with Choice Band. You can also use Return if you're really that worried about Double Edge's recoil but the extra power Double Edge provides is really hard to turn down. Raticate is just a much stronger, albeit sometimes less reliable version of Absol and the rankings should continue to reflect that.

I don't feel I have enough knowledge of the other nominations to make a comment on them, but I'll come back to them at a later date if I find myself using them.
 

TONE

I don't have to take this. I'm going for a walk.
is a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Oh look a post by me on this thread, what a rarity!

Anyway, I won't go into detail about my own personal rises/drops, but I just mainly wanted to touch on the Floatzel nomination for a bit, cause I feel that some things were not mentioned. First the comparison between Floatzel and Kingler. I may not be that in tune in the meta like I was prior, but comparing the two feels a bit wrong tbh since they basically do different things. Using Kingler, Scarf Kingler at that, to compare to Banded Floatzel to me just isn't justification for saying Kingler is way better. The fact that you had to put Scarf on the Kingler is the first point as you're banking on stuff like Pyroar not being scarfed, whereas Floatzel naturally outspeeds non-scarf Pyroar making it more of an offensive check. Second, Kingler is not better than Floatzel in every way and stats aren't the only thing that matters. Floatzel doesn't have Sheer Force like Kingler, but not only does it speed tier do well for it, Having access to Aqua Jet to pick off weakened mons and more importantly Switcheroo to cripple stuff like Clefairy with Choice Band gives Floatzel it's own way of handling said bulky mons, not to mention having access to Taunt also helps with the aforementioned Clefairy and any other passive mons. Not to mention the potential loss of Ferroseed and the pretty much guaranteed loss of Gastrodon makes Floatzel just as threatning as Kingler. So if anything I'd keep it at B+ and would only consider dropping it to B if the relevant rise of Poliwrath would hinder it to that degree whether it be physical of special.
 

Darkinium

the mighty nuaguunibi

Floatzel from B+ to B: Disagree

Because the basis of the drop was competition with Kingler, that's the argument I'll be fighting against in this post. The advantages that Floatzel offers over Kingler were, I feel, heavily overlooked in the nomination, namely Floatzel's speed and versatility. Whereas Kingler almost always runs the same set and is straightforward to play against as a result, Floatzel packs many curveball up its sleeve such as Special Attacker, Taunt, BU, CB, etc, dealing with the answers of its various other sets. Not saying Kingler being plain is a bad thing, but Floatzel has a lot more potential to screw its opponent over because of a misplay. Floatzel's Speed is a great edge over faster foes such as Lilligant, non-Choice Scarf Pyroar, Oricorio-Sensu, etc., all of which are overwhelmingly common. Where Kingler would normally be forced out, Floatzel has the upper edge, which can be a life-saver in numerous games.


Alolan Raticate from B+ to B: Disagree

I feel Alolan Raticate's wallbreaking potential was really underrated in the original post. Covering most if not the entire tier with just 2 moves, that is, your STABs, is incredible, unlike Absol who always misses something because it needs SD + dual Dark STAB. Alolan Raticate does use CB better for the same reasons, having more free slots for Sucker Punch, Switcheroo, Pursuit, U-turn, etc. If the sentiment that Absol and Alolan Raticate are on equal footing is really strong, you could make a case for moving Absol up, but Alolan Raticate is, imo, too good to consider dropping.
 
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Turtonator from C to B-: Disagree

Turtonator is a good shell smash Pokemon and I do not think it is fit for B- rank; however, I do think it is good enough to be C+ rank instead. So here is my nomination:

Turtonator from C to C+

As stated earlier, Togedemaru is starting to become the most popular choice scarf user, and thanks to this, it gives Turtonator more set-up opportunities compared to the past. It walls Togedemaru's STAB moves and only has to be weary of toxic on scarf Toge. It might be slow even after shell smash, but let's not forget that it is fairly bulky for an offensive pokemon and it's kind of meant to be a wallbreaker, but it can of course act as a sweeper late-game. It also can shell smash on so many Pokemon! Here's just a small list: Lurantis, Lanturn, Eelektross, Togedemaru, Pyroar (locked in to a fire move), Ferroseed, and Clefairy (use taunt or substitute to avoid toxic). Thanks to this, I believe it is a must to have on hyper offensive teams and is much MUCH better than other things in C rank. Its defensive capabilities means HO teams do not lose to things like Lilligant or fast fire types like Pyroar. Fire blast, shell smash, substitute, and dragon pulse is the set I've been using and it is very effective.

Replays showcasing Turtonator:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-771244814
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-771254445
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-772196865

Behind screens, this thing is a monster. As you can see in the first replay, Primeape had to use U-turn to chip Turtonator to get the KO with Stone Edge. It's bulk behind screens is massive. With the right team support, stealth rocks will rarely get on your side of the field meaning it can dent the opposing team without being chipped by rocks. Screens + white herb/shell smash makes this pokemon a fast offensive tank which makes it a threat against most teams. People tend to use Clefairy as a special wall, but +2 Fire Blast 2HKO's Clefairy and it can't even toxic you thanks to substitute or taunt. It is truly a good Pokemon imo.


Other nomination: Electrode from Unranked to D

Electrode @ Light Clay
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Explosion
- Taunt
- Light Screen
- Reflect

Being the only fast Light Screen/Reflect user with Taunt/Explosion, I definitely think this thing has a niche over Meowstic-M (the other screens setter). Meowstic-M's ability Prankster got nerfed which means that Skuntank, a very prominent Pokemon in PU, can defog on it whenever it pleases. Spiritomb with infiltrator also means that it can spam pursuit on Meowstic-M without having to worry about screens making Meowstic-M not a good screens setter in the current metagame. Electrode does not have to worry about that at all. It can set up screens, prevent hazards from going up on your side with taunt, then boom for a set-up mon in the back. You can see it doing its job in the three replays provided above.
 
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Evening. I wanted to nominate a Pokemon that has been rightfully UR for several generations. I feel as though Gen 7 really helped it rise, and I'd like to explain my reasoning why. No, my username is not relevant - it is a mere coincidence.

REGIGIGAS
UR -> D



I nominate Regigigas to D on account of a few features present in Gen 7 that push Regigigas to relevancy. Let's address the elephant in the room - Regigigas' Slow Start is the single worst ability in the game (well, okay - besides maybe Truant). Forcing Regigigas to survive for 5 turns doesn't seem that implausible - but on account of its movepool, lacking any form of recovery, Protect and not even Rest, it really does push it into awful territory.

However, thanks to Generation 7, Regigigas has a recovery move allowing it to more easily survive for 5 turns - Z-Psych Up. Thanks to Regigigas' still solid defenses, it can heal at low % with Z-Psych Up and give it the potential to survive for 5 turns. This set is especially dangerous once Regigigas gets behind a Substitute - Regigigas' Substitutes are difficult to break, and it can afford the HP loss thanks to Z-Psych Up being effective once it reaches low percents. If Z-Psych Up is not needed, Regigigas can instead opt to go for a Breakneck Blitz if it is running Normal-type STAB.

One other attribute with Psych Up I wanted to mention was the use of Swagger instead of Confuse Ray. Confuse Ray itself was rare on Regigigas, but Swagger gives Regigigas the chance to steal stat boosts from bulky or special attacking Pokemon.

Now, Regigigas still has two very obvious flaws. Phazing is a huge one (albeit a lot less common than it was in gens 4-5, thanks to Team Preview). It also has severe 4 moveslot syndrome - Regigigas has to dedicate four moveslots:

- Psych Up
- Thunder Wave / Swagger
- Substitute
- Frustration, Return - needed to OHKO certain key Pokemon in the metagame after Slow Start wears off / Drain Punch.

This makes Regigigas easily beaten by Ghost-types and potentially Rock and Steel types (though Regigigas is still capable of dishing a nice chunk if it is able to nab a +2 boost from Swagger). Therefore, Regigigas needs some team support (namely a Pursuit trapper like Spiritomb) to clean up late-game.

If sub-tiers existed in D, Regigigas is most certainly fit for D-. However, I really do think that Regigigas has potential to be in D thanks to Z-Psych Up allowing it to easily beat unprepared teams late-game.

I have a few replays I'll post after doing a few more battles to get a better feel of the mon.

EDIT:
Have a short dump, will be adding more shortly.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-776749835 - We both made a few misplays here and there, but this showcases the late-game sweeping potential a well-played Regigigas can do. It also shows off Breakneck Blitz (actual sweep starts turn 17)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-776828615 - Generic Z-Psych Up + Swagger setup.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-777230419 - Regigigas is able to clean the rest of the team after minor set up against Tangela. (turn 30)

And a few minor ones caused by my opponents not being the best:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-777231527 - Sweeps early on due to my opponent not having anything for Normal-types.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-776779705 / https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-776753607 - These players aren't great. However, this showcases the ideal Regigigas set up as well as the use of Swagger + Z-Psych Up, so I thought it was worth showcasing.
 
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Gumshoos from Unranked to C-

Stakeout Frustration hits incredibly hard and since Stoutland left the tier I believe this Pokemon has a niche now in being a strong Normal type wallbreaker as it can hit a lot harder than Kangaskhan and can gain momentum with U-turn or hit Rock and Steel type switch ins hard with Earthquake. Gumshoos can also afford to invest in HP meaning it can often live a hit before firing back. Here I will show some calcs and replays of this working in action.

  • +2 252+ Atk Choice Band Gumshoos Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 309-364 (92.5 - 108.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
  • +2 252+ Atk Choice Band Gumshoos Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Regirock: 306-360 (84 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • +2 252+ Atk Choice Band Gumshoos Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Spiritomb: 296-349 (97.6 - 115.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • +2 252+ Atk Choice Band Gumshoos Return vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 346-408 (92.5 - 109%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-781945647
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-781955228
 
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