Resource USUM PU Viability Rankings


Hitmonchan from A- to A

It's surprising to me that the best spinner, Hail check, and AV user in the tier is not A rank. I know it has its flaws, but it is one of the most commonly used Pokemon in the tier and is a solid blanket check for many different types of threats.
I actually don’t believe the recent meta trends have favored Hitmonchan in many ways, if any. The somewhat recent discovery of Scarf Kabutops gives Hitmonchan more competition as a spinner, and Alolan Sandslash has always been there as a generally more reliable pokemon in terms of spinning due to being harder to spinblock and not needing to pick between coverage to keep something out of its face, which is another problem point for Hitmonchan. The fact that Hitmonchan has to chose between Thunder Punch and Stone Edge (even Ice Punch remains a possibility) means that Hitmonchan will always have a weak point when it comes to the hazard game, whether it means not being able to threaten Qwilfish as much, or making it harder to spin against Froslass. Hitmonchan also dislikes how good Toxic Spikes are atm, meaning Hitmonchan will likely be outlasted very easily unless you have something else to deal with Toxic Spikes. It also is a shaky rock check, as Lycanroc survives Mach Punch from full, and Aggron heavily dents you with either STAB move, so Hitmonchan at times leaves you with a fighting type, but still in need of a solid rock check. Smaller meta shifts such as Eelektross falling out of vogue, somewhat replaced by Lanturn, who threatens with Scald burns, Golurk becoming better, walling non Ice Punch sets, and Alolan Raichu establishing itself as a fast special breaker that Hitmonchan fails to check, all do not play into Hitmonchan’s favor. Granted, Hitmonchan still does its job as a special sponge, spinner, and priority user well enough to stay A-.
 
I heavily disagree with this. First of all, it functions as a sort of counter to other rockers while being able to set rocks. This means it normally stays in on the first turn rather than switching in. Lycanroc Taunts you? Too bad, they die to EQ. Aggron? Dies to EQ. Mesprit? Shadow Punch and force the switch or 2HKO. (Ok, it might run Ice Beam but it's unlikely.) Let's say you don't do this, and instead decide to switch into Golurk later in the game. You mentioned that it has "few opportunities to switch in". It has 3 immunities. Switch in on any Fighting-, Normal- or Electric move and you're given basically a free turn to do whatever, as they can't normally hurt you back and are forced to switch. It's fine where it is - just because it's not seen everywhere doesn't mean it's bad. Look at Jynx.
I think Mudsdale eclipses Golurk as a "counter to other rockers". Mudsdale has much better natural bulk and an outstanding defensive ability in Stamina. Mudsdale doesn't really fear much from defensive Mesprit either, and it can toxic stall it to death. It also has decent longevity.

252 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 162-192 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO

Golurk can barely 2HKO defensive Mesprit with STAB Shadow Punch. It's really not that strong and won't be breaking through walls anytime soon.

"Switch in on any Fighting-, Normal- or Electric move and you're given basically a free turn to do whatever, as they can't normally hurt you back and are forced to switch." I don't think this is really true. Fighting-types like Gurdurr and Hitmonchan carry Knock Off and Ice Punch respectively, both of which 2HKO Golurk. Even Primeape, who rarely possesses Dark-/Ice-type coverage, can easily U-turn into a better match up. Then Golurk will be the one in the unfavorable position.

Golurk's immunity to Normal-type moves isn't really practical to be honest. In PU, the premier Normal-type wallbreakers are Stoutland and Kangaskhan, both of whom have Scrappy. Golurk will get torn down by them. On the other hand, stuff like Zangoose can KO it with Knock Off. Its immunity to Electric-type moves like Volt Switch is probably one of its greatest defensive assets, but Mudsdale has it too.

I just find it hard to justify using due to the prominence of Ice-types, its bad speed, and availability of much better, more capable rockers.

I actually don’t believe the recent meta trends have favored Hitmonchan in many ways, if any. The somewhat recent discovery of Scarf Kabutops gives Hitmonchan more competition as a spinner, and Alolan Sandslash has always been there as a generally more reliable pokemon in terms of spinning due to being harder to spinblock and not needing to pick between coverage to keep something out of its face, which is another problem point for Hitmonchan. The fact that Hitmonchan has to chose between Thunder Punch and Stone Edge (even Ice Punch remains a possibility) means that Hitmonchan will always have a weak point when it comes to the hazard game, whether it means not being able to threaten Qwilfish as much, or making it harder to spin against Froslass. Hitmonchan also dislikes how good Toxic Spikes are atm, meaning Hitmonchan will likely be outlasted very easily unless you have something else to deal with Toxic Spikes. It also is a shaky rock check, as Lycanroc survives Mach Punch from full, and Aggron heavily dents you with either STAB move, so Hitmonchan at times leaves you with a fighting type, but still in need of a solid rock check. Smaller meta shifts such as Eelektross falling out of vogue, somewhat replaced by Lanturn, who threatens with Scald burns, Golurk becoming better, walling non Ice Punch sets, and Alolan Raichu establishing itself as a fast special breaker that Hitmonchan fails to check, all do not play into Hitmonchan’s favor. Granted, Hitmonchan still does its job as a special sponge, spinner, and priority user well enough to stay A-.
I don't see why Hitmonchan is expected to take on Qwilfish in the first place, due to Intimidate as well as having a type disadvantage.

-1 252+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Qwilfish: 142-168 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

The 2HKO with Thunder Punch is highly unlikely and by then Hitmonchan would have already gotten worn down by Rocky Helmet and/or other chip damage. Other than that, I agree with your point about lacking the moveslot to hit both Qwilfish and Froslass supereffectively. On the other hand, I don't think Four Moveslot Syndrome should prevent Hitmonchan from being A mid given all of its positive attributes.

Hitmonchan is not a "shaky rock check". Being a check is different than being a counter. Mach Punch KOes Lycanroc after a bit of chip and it's not like Lycanroc threatens to OHKO it back (even less so without Lycanium Z). In a 1v1, Hitmonchan almost always wins against Aggron (not to mention Aurorus). Therefore, I think that it's a very solid Rock check. However, because it does get heavily dented by both of Aggron's STABs, it's not exactly a counter since it can only switch in for free.

On a side, I disagree with your point about Lanturn since it won't win the 1v1 even with a Scald burn. Alolan Raichu has always been a good Nasty Plot sweeper but that in of itself has not affected Hitmonchan's popularity. Also, in what way is "Golurk becoming better"? It's counter intuitive since you mentioned that Scarf Kabutops and AlolaSlash are establishing themselves as notable spinners.

In conclusion, I understand that Hitmonchan is not perfect. Nevertheless, it being one of the most used Pokemon in the tier must mean something.
 
Hello my name is Wmar. This is my first noms on the vr so if anything i say feels flawed then I’m sorry but without further ado, lets get on with the noms. Just know i had some opinions on the discord about these noms and some agree

Jellicent to S
Jellicent has proven to be the most defining of the drops imo. Sets ranging from specs to utility and it does an anazing job at it. For the PU meta Jellicent has stellar bulk and a great check to alot of the mons from Omastar to Hitmonchan, while having great offensive stats for the specs set to work. S is an amazing start and it shows how meta defining this pokemon is and it’s a great addition to the meta

Dodrio to A+
This mon i saw alot of craze for. Now on paper its broken. Having an amazing speed tier and is able to run a variety of set ranging from Banded, Scarf, and SD sweeper and having coverage for checks like Regirock. The main flaw is that it gets easily chipped with brave bird and i feel it needs to set up to really put in work, and with its bulky being lackluster it has a tough time but it has its scarf and banded sets to perform other roles. Personally feel like A+ is a good start since its not S material imo but still really good

Quagsire to A-
Ah yes we haven’t seen this pokemon since PU Beta and we all know what it does. A great Unaware wall that fits on stall and balance architypes alike. Tho this mon faces competition with Pyukumuku due to the fact that Pyukumuku has only 2x weakness to grass and it has better bulk, the reason Quagsire is king is the fact its not passive at all and quagsire is viable on balance teams while Pyukumuku i feel is only good on stall. This blue blob has a curse set that allows it to tank any physical move and other sweepers can’t break it + quagsire can run through some unprepared teams. A- is a great way to show how good quagsire is and i am proud to say the king of stall is back baby.

Now i hope this was a good way to state my reasonings with these noms and i do hope i didn’t do as terrible of explaining the niches of these pokemon. Have a wonderful day
 

Megazard

The Piranha Plant of Super Staff Bros
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Code:
Jellicent --> S 
Dodrio --> A+
Quagsire --> A-
While this is a bit earlier than we normally rank drops, the council was unanimous on these placings. Despite not being the drop considered for ban, Jellicent is the more consistent of the two big boys by a wide margin. Choice Specs is an incredibly good wallbreaker, Taunt+Wisp sets are really good at annoying balanced cores, and defensive sets are highly effective at walling plenty of large threats. It's always extremely useful, has a large teambuilding impact, and is just generally always an excellent option. Dodrio might have higher highs as an incredibly dangerous wallbreaker with nearly as much set variety, but we did not feel it is worth S rank at this time because it can still struggle with large amounts of offensive pressure or being walled out by well supported resists. SD/Band/Scarf are all highly dangerous but are also checked in generally similar ways, and so far it isn't quite as mandatory for teams to consider running a Dodrio as it is for Jellicent, Mesprit, or Skuntank. Also Quagsire is kinda just here, it's a really good option for balance teams as it just checks so many strong Pokemon in the current meta, but it's also really weak and the weaknesses it does have (strong unresisted CB/Specs users, Lilligant, random HP Grass coverage) are quite noticeable. Still, we can always use more Aggron resists.

Feel free to discuss moving these mons around, this is what the council thinks right now but it doesn't mean we can't immediately start shifting them. Also I've got a few noms that I don't quite want to make a full post for yet because it's early days in the new meta but just a few things that seem worth thinking about: Primeape A to A-, Gurdurr A+ to A, Swanna A to A-, Alolan Dugtrio A- to B+, Articuno B+ to A-, Pinsir B+ to B
 
( Manectric ---> B Rank)

I feel the current metagame has been very kind to Manectrics Choice scarf set as it does well versus common playstyles and trends. It puts a lot of pressure on the fast Hazard Stack teams we have been seeing a lot as of late out speeding and threatening high damage on things like Lycanroc, Choice Scarf users including Togedemaru, Primeape, Mesprit and speed tying with Scyther. It also makes a decent Hail check for Balance and offensive teams outpacing Jolly Sandslash-Alola in hail, not to mention it puts big pressure on 2/3 of the new drops excluding Choice Scarf Dodrio. And finally on top of the faster offensive metagame it's defensive switch ins ether left our tier or are falling out of favor. I just really think this thing deserves a rise.
 
CRUSTLE FOR A- !!!

Crustle is one pokemon that can do it all, as I explained several days ago, before my post was deleted by a bad moderator. Wash the laundry, do the dishes, sweep the pokemon! It's all in a day's work for this "bug of all seasons." Crustle is a BUG / ROCK type in the PU tier. He can have "STURDY" and he learns a multi-hit attack. He is excellent in most any play style and against most any play style, although I find he (or she) truly SHINES in a mono-bug setting. What's the best moveset for Crustle? I'm glad you asked ,I have done some thinking and some testing and found it:

ROCKINIUM Z (for Z move)
SHELL SMASH
ROCK BLAST
X SCISSOR
EARTHQUAKE

As I have done in EXACT accordance with the rules, here are some replays which prove this point.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-821176445
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-817786120
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-821693296
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-821186693
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-821281681
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-822305975 <--- (shows truly remarkable coverage and versatility)

1539711760757.png
 
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CRUSTLE FOR A- !!!

Crustle is one pokemon that can do it all, as I explained several days ago, before my post was deleted by a bad moderator. Wash the laundry, do the dishes, sweep the pokemon! It's all in a day's work for this "bug of all seasons." Crustle is a BUG / ROCK type in the PU tier. He can have "STURDY" and he learns a multi-hit attack. He is excellent in most any play style and against most any play style, although I find he (or she) truly SHINES in a mono-bug setting. What's the best moveset for Crustle? I'm glad you asked ,I have done some thinking and some testing and found it:

ROCKINIUM Z (for Z move)
SHELL SMASH
ROCK BLAST
X SCISSOR
EARTHQUAKE

As I have done in EXACT accordance with the rules, here are some replays which prove this point.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-821176445
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-817786120
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-821186693
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-821281681

View attachment 141048
See the problem i have here is why would i use this over Omastar. Lord helix has better coverage and offensive presence and can be a hazard setter. Crustle is also weak to rocks but you are a bug person so you should know the one thing keeping bug types from being good in this tier is hazards and Crustle is no exception. I like reading these meme vrs noms but at this point its kinda annoying and thats why mods delete. So i disagree with this nom entirely unless you can convince me and others on why use Crustle over Omastar
 
Speaking of bugs

Wormadam-Trash: D -> UR
This thing was bigger when Aurorus was arguably one of the the best mons in the tier. It still is, but there are much better things that check that now, especially since when this was actually okay to use was before SpDef Alolaslash and AV Crabominable became sets. Honestly can't see any reason to use this unless you need a Quiver Dance user that beats non-HP Fire Lilligant and Bellossom. This probably should've been unranked months ago.


Ninjask: D -> UR
Okay, I actually like Ninjask and think it's a fun mon. But Dodrio and Scyther are here, and do everything Ninjask can do but better because the fomer doesn't have to rely on a Z-move to beat Rock- and Steel-types and the latter has Knock Off, stronger U-Turns (really stronger everything), and Roost. Sure the Speed/Speed Boost is an okay factor for beating opposing Scarfers, but it doesn't can't really OHKO anything without an SD boost and can't live any hits to get that set up.
 

Taskr

Peng Ting
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PU Leader
Haven't done this in a while so why not, here are some VR noms that I think fit the current meta. Rise up Grass Types!

B to B+

Abomasnow is actually a really cool pick in the current meta. I am talking specifically about LO Mixed Abomasnow as it does really well against all the recent drops. Abomasnow is able to switch in to Jellicent and Quagsire fairly freely, only really fearing Scald burns but that isn't too bad when you threaten them on the special side anyway. Abomasnow differentiates itself from the other Grass Types as it can actually threaten Dodrio really well with as it has access to Ice Shard which does over half to Dodrio, severely limiting what Dodrio can do. I'm also going to say that Swords Dance Abomasnow has potential too since it sits at a really nice speed tier just above Jolly Aggron and Modest Aurorus whilst being able to smash through cores involving Jellicent/Mudsdale/SpD mon.


C+ to B-/B

Roselia is quite nice in this meta and that it largely due to how meta defining Jellicent is. Roselia is a great partner to Jellicent as it is basically the only Spike setter that doesn't clash in terms of type synergy but not only that, Roselia is a great switch-in to Grass Types such as Lilligant and Bellossom which Jellicent struggles with and is also able to absorb Toxic Spikes which Jellicent doesn't like. Roselia is not only a good partner to Jellicent, it is also a decent counter as it can avoid the 2HKO from Specs Shadow Ball and Giga Drain the health back. It's also worth noting Rose is able to come in against defensive Jellicent really easily and set up Spikes whilst not caring much about the burn as it can cure itself when switching out.


UR to D

The rest of the council will probably be mad at this one since we're tryna get rid of all the pointless stuff in the the bottom ranks but Cacturne actually has a niche now as it is immune to Jellicents Water Type STAB moves and resists its Ghost Type moves too and with a Hasty nature it can outrun Modest max speed Jellicent. Cacturne is able to fulfill more of a wallbreaker role than most other Grass Types and can run cool tech like Spiky Shield to scout for U-turns and can be useful when predicting against Dodrio's Jump Kick to put it in Sucker Punch range.
 
Quick post for some shifts I've been thinking about for awhile:

Drops
Oricorio Sensu A+ to A-
I find myself justifying using Sensu less and less lately. In metas past, it was the go to spinblocker for offense and balance alike as it could easily stop a more popular Hitmonchan and served as a great blanket check to Gurdurr along with the ability to break fatter teams. However with the recent additions of Froslass and Jellicent, Sensu faces a lot of competition as the spinblocker/fighting check of choice. The sheer amount of the meta that Jelli blanket checks is much more valuable than what Defensive Oricorio can and Frolass's speed tier along with invaluable Spikes is usually much more useful than Sensu. In addition, with Aggron, Togedemaru, and Snowslash only getting more popular, mono Hurricane sets are free switch ins for these dangerous threats. Offensive sets can still function decently, but I feel in general its cousin PomPom performs this role much more effectively in this meta. I'll go into this more in depth with my Pom section, but basically having a mon that can still do basically everything Sensu can do along with the incredibly helpful benefit of flying resistance is crucial in this meta. Taking all of this into account, I feel a drop of two subranks to A- is warranted.
Primeape A to A-
Primeape is in a similar boat as Sensu in that is quite hard to justify using over much more reliable options, namely Togedemaru. A perfectly played Primeape can still be quite devastating, but there are so many new staples in the meta that abuse it, making clicking Close Combat difficult which can leave Primeape useless in many matchups. The additions of Froslass and Jellicent can make clicking Uturn your only option. Therefore, the opportunity cost of running Scarf Ape over Scarf Toge is hard to justify when building. Primeape can still revenge most of the things Toge can (notably not being able to revenge +2 QA Dodrio reliably however) but Toge gives you a much more useful set of resistances along with dual STABs that are much easier to spam late game. What Primeape offers over that is Defiant to punish Defoggers and a bit more power, but that power is almost useless in a lot of matchups thanks to the proliferation of ghost types and other staple fighting resists. This is just another previous top threat that needs to drop to reflect how the meta has changed.
Scyther A to A-
This pains me to make as one of the biggest Scyther fans, but meta trends have been quite unfriendly to Scyther in general. Firstly, removing rocks is pretty difficult in the current meta. Spinning is almost impossible with Jellicent everywhere, and we have a good amount of Taunt users to stop Defog along with more offensive pressure in general making clicking Defog a risk at times. In order to use Scyther you're almost obligated to run dual removal to negate this fact. This sticks you into a pretty tight box when building with Scyther. Secondly, two of the three most common Scarfers, Togedemaru and Kabutops lose very little from just coming in on Scyther, especially when it is forced to Roost. Thirdly, two of the new drops make using Scyther difficult for different reasons. Dodrio is a much easier breaker to use thanks to more useful dual STAB, stronger fighting coverage, and more flexibility to use Z moves. Dodrio's popularity also just adds one more common mon that can revenge Scyther. Quagsire is another drop that gives it issues, hard walling any SD set. This is less of an issue than Dodrio as it can always Uturn out, but it's still notable as in the past metas Pyukumuku was the Scyther answer on most stall. Quagsire is just a bit harder to abuse than Pyuku was. Thanks to all of these factors, I feel it is hard to justify using the traditional bulky SD set. I think lure sets like Z Reversal or just SD Brick Break can be decent and are probably Scyther's best options right now but also situational and a bit matchup reliant. A drop to A- should be fine considering all of these changes the meta has gone through.
Altaria A- to B
Less to say about this one than the above three. Altaria is a pretty mediocre Defogger right now and for it to still be in A- is laughable. It was easier to justify this pick back before we banned Pyroar, but now it stuggles a lot. Sure, having a grass answer (assuming no HP Ice), that also has a good matchup vs Mudsdale and Defensive Mesprit is nice, but letting big threats like Aggron, Froslass, and Hail combo in for free is a big letdown. It has a niche even if no one uses it to be sure, but I feel B is a much more accurate representation of that niche.
Rises
Togedemaru A to A+
Wanted to finally pull the trigger on this nomination. Toge is the go to Scarfer like 70-80% of the time, and with the recent addition of Dodrio to the tier it is even more of a no brainer. Toge's combination of dual STAB + Uturn is such a useful tool for revenging threats and being a wincon late game that when building it becomes increasingly difficult to find a reason not to use it. When looking at the rest of A+, I feel Togedemaru has just as much bearing on the meta as all the offensive threats there, setting the gold standard for PU scarfers.
Oricorio Pom Pom B+ to A/A-
I said above that I hardly ever use Sensu anymore, and this is one of the reasons why. This trend started last meta with the arrival of Scyther and later Froslass, but it is now amplified with Dodrio and Jellicent. Having a proper flying resist, one that can properly take special flying types along with physical ones, is the most important it has been since Archeops meta. PomPom can't spinblock, but it can give you everything else Sensu can while also giving you that important flying resist in one slot. Stopping all fighting types along with being one of the best Lilligant (and other grass types) stops is a very useful tool for all playstyles. While stallbreaking sets struggle just like the Sensu stallbreaking sets as they rely on only one STAB, offensive CM sets can do quite well while still being able to take on everything it needs to. I feel Pom is a much easier pick to make than Sensu this meta and should at least be in the same rank if not higher than Sensu to reflect this.

Agree with all the above noms from Sergio and Taskr. Disagree with the Manectric nom though. If anything, I feel Manectric has gotten a lot weaker this meta with Mudsdale, Lanturnm and even Claydol becoming commonplace on balance and even offense. In general it just lacks the proper power to really clean through teams.

Thanks for reading! :blobuwu:
 
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( Manectric ---> B Rank)

I feel the current metagame has been very kind to Manectrics Choice scarf set as it does well versus common playstyles and trends. It puts a lot of pressure on the fast Hazard Stack teams we have been seeing a lot as of late out speeding and threatening high damage on things like Lycanroc, Choice Scarf users including Togedemaru, Primeape, Mesprit and speed tying with Scyther. It also makes a decent Hail check for Balance and offensive teams outpacing Jolly Sandslash-Alola in hail, not to mention it puts big pressure on 2/3 of the new drops excluding Choice Scarf Dodrio. And finally on top of the faster offensive metagame it's defensive switch ins ether left our tier or are falling out of favor. I just really think this thing deserves a rise.
Manectric Rise: Agree

With the new drops Manectric is much more threatening, and with both a brilliant speed tier and almost perfect coverage bar Dragons (what Dragons), it certainly should be considered for a pivot on any team.
UR to D

The rest of the council will probably be mad at this one since we're tryna get rid of all the pointless stuff in the the bottom ranks but Cacturne actually has a niche now as it is immune to Jellicents Water Type STAB moves and resists its Ghost Type moves too and with a Hasty nature it can outrun Modest max speed Jellicent. Cacturne is able to fulfill more of a wallbreaker role than most other Grass Types and can run cool tech like Spiky Shield to scout for U-turns and can be useful when predicting against Dodrio's Jump Kick to put it in Sucker Punch range.
Cacturne Rise: Agree

A +2 Sucker Punch from this guy OHKOs half the tier (I painstakingly calc'd every high usage mon in PU), the vast majority of which outspeed and might expect an easy kill from it, like Dodrio and scarfed Scyther. It has multiple niches over Shiftry due to it's far superior offensive stats, access to hazards and Spiky Shield and a great ability in Water Absorb, which allows it to consistently switch in to and threaten the new drops.
 
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Oricorio Pom Pom Rise: Massively Agree

This is one of the most underutilized mons in this meta and it's a shame really. It's one of my go-to glue mons right now. Electric/Flying is quite a good typing right now on both an offensive and defensive standpoint, checking powerful threats like Lilligant and Gurdurr is great, and being one of offense's best answers to Flying-types like Dodrio and Scyther is such good utility. For having so much role compression in one slot, I'd say raise Mini-Zapdos, please.
 
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Togedemaru A to A+
Togedemaru Rise = Strongly Agree.

It is one of the best Scarfers, puts a stop on Dodrio, Oricorio-Sensu and helps a good ton against other threats. Not only it's scarfset is amazing but also some lure sets for physical attackers in Iron barbs + Rocky Helmet + Spiky Shield. It is amazing in the current metagame right now and deserves a rise. It functions on alot of teams and outspeeds other scarfers like Mesprit and Primape and is even able to flinch them with either Iron head or Zing Zap.

Primeape A to A-

Primape Drop = Agreed

With the introduction of one specific mon, which is called Jellicent, it lost his best measure to break thru teams with his Scarf Set, it isn't able to spam Close Combat like it was before and CC is his best move. Jellicent is able to either Scald or WoW Burn it down and makes this threat not a threat any longer. The Predictionpart is you have to U-Turn out more often on predicted Jelli-switchins. I think it should drop down 1 or even 2 subranks.
 

Ktütverde

Always turning thoughts into things
is a Tiering Contributor
Drops

A+ -> A- Qwilfish really sucks atm, doesnt check any of the toptiers, and is outclassed by jelli as a water+fighting resist, and by froslass as a spiker.

A+ -> A Kinda struggle in the current meta; aggron often plays the role of the aurorus we knew in the past, and oricorio dies to froslass, togedemaru, aggron and dodrio. I dont see a reason to use them atm, i would often just use aggron or froslass instead of these two.

A -> A-
Swanna, swanna, what are u doing nowadays? Being a bad dod, being a bad defogger, being an awful scarfer, being replaced by bulky, tanky, sweeping corios. Swanna is too "slow" in the current meta and just frail, dont use it imo. A defogger than threatens mudsdale? Frosttom does it +beats froslass. Spiritomb has fallen in disgrace, was amazing in ferro meta, but now, what are u going to do vs froslass, aggron, mudsdale? It doesnt provide the role compression it did in the past, and isnt the go-to spinblocker: froslass does it well, and jelli... you know, ghost competition.
Also sableye actually scares aggron and dodrio away.


Rises

A -> A+ Mudsdale is the best rocker with mesprit atm, almost a standard mon in balance and bulky offense, checks aggron, dodrio, primeape, togedemaru, hitmonchan, gurdurr, skunk, lycanrock, pressures articuno, has no switchin except grasstypes and quagsire. This mon is just goat. Togedemaru is the, THE scarfer, and there is no reason not to use it, checks lilligant froslass lycanrock dodrio clefairy oricorios swanna jynx scyther omastar it checks EVERYTHING. Togoat.

A- -> A Ok this mon is the best hazard remover in balance. Checks aurorus, lilligant, weezing cant touch it, froslass wont beat it easily, it is immune to toxispikes, it says fuck jynx and fuck scyther, it takes 0.00% from defensive mesprit and sets up rocks+spins, wtf man this mon is amazing. Also the hail one is A- rank worthy imo since evry team can stop it reliably, but the Spdef one is A rank worthy imo.


Thanks for reading.
 

Many

Impetuous and silly
is a Tiering Contributor
Drops

A+ -> A- Qwilfish really sucks atm, doesnt check any of the toptiers, and is outclassed by jelli as a water+fighting resist, and by froslass as a spiker.

A+ -> A Kinda struggle in the current meta; aggron often plays the role of the aurorus we knew in the past, and oricorio dies to froslass, togedemaru, aggron and dodrio. I dont see a reason to use them atm, i would often just use aggron or froslass instead of these two.

A -> A-
Swanna, swanna, what are u doing nowadays? Being a bad dod, being a bad defogger, being an awful scarfer, being replaced by bulky, tanky, sweeping corios. Swanna is too "slow" in the current meta and just frail, dont use it imo. A defogger than threatens mudsdale? Frosttom does it +beats froslass. Spiritomb has fallen in disgrace, was amazing in ferro meta, but now, what are u going to do vs froslass, aggron, mudsdale? It doesnt provide the role compression it did in the past, and isnt the go-to spinblocker: froslass does it well, and jelli... you know, ghost competition.
Also sableye actually scares aggron and dodrio away.


Rises

A -> A+ Mudsdale is the best rocker with mesprit atm, almost a standard mon in balance and bulky offense, checks aggron, dodrio, primeape, togedemaru, hitmonchan, gurdurr, skunk, lycanrock, pressures articuno, has no switchin except grasstypes and quagsire. This mon is just goat. Togedemaru is the, THE scarfer, and there is no reason not to use it, checks lilligant froslass lycanrock dodrio clefairy oricorios swanna jynx scyther omastar it checks EVERYTHING. Togoat.

A- -> A Ok this mon is the best hazard remover in balance. Checks aurorus, lilligant, weezing cant touch it, froslass wont beat it easily, it is immune to toxispikes, it says fuck jynx and fuck scyther, it takes 0.00% from defensive mesprit and sets up rocks+spins, wtf man this mon is amazing. Also the hail one is A- rank worthy imo since evry team can stop it reliably, but the Spdef one is A rank worthy imo.


Thanks for reading.
Man, when talking about such prominent mons you really gotta give better reasoning. I'm not a big fan of Qwilfish either right now, but it doesn't suck. It functions as a general check to a load of physical attackers that Froslass simply cannot do, while Spikes and its fast Taunt obviously differs it from Jellicent. I don't mind it dropping b/c Fighting-resist isn't as important as it once was but A- is too low.

Aggron playing the role of Aurorus is also a huge oversimplification, as Aurorus can easily blast through pokemon like Mudsdale, Gurdurr, Tangela while Aggron can't, and Aurorus is often used as part of a hail core. Again, I'm fine with dropping it but saying there's no reason to use this is just silly.

agree with the rest. Snowslash is neat. I think you overrate the SpD set a bit, since in reality it does struggle quite a bit spinning on Jelli and bulky Lass, and the special bulk is still pretty mediocre once you're not talking about specific resists. However with the combination of the SpD set and the Hail set I think A is a pretty good ranking. Also please use Offensive sets if you are going to use Sensu. I think there's still room to experiment with the mon. Dual STAB + HP Ground / Fighting with something like CM or Tailwind in the last slot seems decent right now, for example.

My own nom:

up to B+
This is very nice because people are using a lot of slower cores that get dismantled by this thing. Mudsdale is very common, Jellicent is very common, and grass-types are starting to rise as a result of Jelli's prominence. This makes many balance teams a playground for our favorite fridge. As a Defog user it's surprisingly reliable because of a good match-up with Mudsdale and Qwilfish.
 
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allstarapology

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Alolan Persian: B+ to A-

Right, so this might seem like a weird nomination to make, and even I wasn't 100% sure about it initially, but now I think that Alolan Persian definitely deserves a place in A-. The offensive and defensive utility that it can provide teams feels really useful now, especially considering that offense is only becoming more and more popular. It outpaces and checks Dodrio, a massive threat, (also easily takes a boosted Quick Attack) and other miscellaneous threats like Lycanroc, Froslass, and Alolan Raichu without needing Choice Scarf, it can apply pressure to Jellicent, and it's terrific at generating momentum for dangerous breakers and sweepers (can also give them a second chance at breaking or sweeping with Z-Parting Shot). Those last two bits really matter when you consider how many of both there are and how game-changing an easier switch in or a free turn can be. Fur Coat is also nice for keeping a lot of physical Choice Scarf users not named Primeape in check when healthy enough. All of that is to say nothing of its Nasty Plot set, which can be rather annoying for offense to deal with because of Fur Coat making up for the lack of HP investment + that Speed tier while still retaining Parting Shot's utility. All in all, really fun Pokemon that deserves a slight bump imo.

Regarding other nominations, I agree with raising Rotom-F, Togedemaru, Roselia, Mudsdale, Alolan Sandslash, and Oricorio-E + dropping Primeape, Scyther, Altaria, Wormadam-Trash, Ninjask, Oricorio-G, and Swanna, but I disagree with dropping Aurorus (at least right now) and I also don't want Qwilfish to drop all the way to A-. A is more appropriate, I feel.
 
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Megazard

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We voted before the Persian nom sorry asa. Also no colors because I'm really tired. Also also voting sheet here.

Rises
Togedemaru A to A+
Mudsdale A to A+
Sandslash-Alola A- to A
Articuno B+ to A-
Oricorio-Pom-Pom B+ to A-
Abomasnow B to B+
Rotom-F B to B+
Manectric B- to B
Roselia C+ to B
Cacturne Unranked to D

Drops
Oricorio-Sensu A+ to A-
Swanna A to A-
Spiritomb A to A-
Primeape A to A-
Scyther A to A-
Altaria A- to B+
Liepard B- to C+
Wormadam-Trash D to Unranked
Ninjask D to Unranked
Vigoroth D to Unranked

Aurorus A+ to A
Gurdurr A+ to A
Electrode Unranked to D

50/50:
Qwilfish A+ to A

We have had a lot of drastic changes to the meta, and the upper ranks finally got a bit of a sorting out. Most of the drop nominations hit the nail right on the head, things like Sensu, Tomb, Altaria, and others just aren't as good as they used to be with all the change that the drops have brought. A few of the high profile drops were somewhat iffy though, Aurorus and Qwilfish were still close and contentious amongst the council. Both have undoubtably gotten worse, but they remain excellent Pokemon capable of fulfilling many different roles and niches. In particular, I think Spikes Qwilfish remains excellent and the Taunt+Dbond+Spikes set is incredibly annoying for the fatter teams popping up. On the rising side, again there are a lot of mons that have gotten a ton of new recognition. Alolan Sandslash, Articuno, and Roselia are particularly notable for massive spikes in splashability and viability caused by the presence of Jellicent and the resurgence of fatter teams. Oh and we unranked Wormadam-Trash because the meta has adapted to the point where we can handle Aurorus without resorting to that thing. If anyone wants a more in-depth explanation of any decisions, feel free to PM me, ask on discord, ask in the room, ask in the simple questions, simple answers thread, just ask!

Some discussion points: Qwilfish A+ to A, Aurorus A+ to A, Oricorio-Pom-Pom A- to A and Altaria A- to B+ are still valid (the last 2 went 50/50 on whether we should move them one subrank or two, and I defaulted to just one subrank). Some additional things of my own are Eelektross A- to A (excellent versus lots of balance cores), Golurk B+ to B (hard to run alongside Froslass or Jellicent), Victreebel B- to B (seems to be the new offensive Grass-type of choice), and Murkrow and Toucannon lower or possibly unranked (they have unique niches, but how worthwhile are they next to Dodrio?).
 

Ktütverde

Always turning thoughts into things
is a Tiering Contributor
"Stone Edge Simulat used Knock Off!
The opposing Jellicent avoided the attack!


The opposing Jellicent used Water Spout!
Stone Edge Simulat lost 100% of its health!


Stone Edge Simulat fainted!"


For the second time........ Put Rat-A in B please. This thing only does one thing "decently", use a Z double edge SD set to wallbreak, but I wouldnt seriously consider using this in a team unless I'm using gravity setters. Yeah, "LOL" seems like the correct answer to this statement, but I'm using the power of my freedrom of speech.
Anyway:
1) using rat is "useful" versus stall mostly, which means you are using with a "counterteaming purpose", so as a (very) niche mon, right? (toucannon, beheeyem..)
2) absol works better vs any other playstyle (band doesnt miss and can click moves, SD can sweep with a priority move that doesnt miss :000)
3) absol is cooler.
4) see 3).
5) Dont tell me rat=drampa=abomasnow=raichu-A=persian. 4 of these mons have a great niche. If you spell their names you won't find any "t".

However Absol isnt a big deal in the current meta so I'm suggesting this instead: move rat-A down. Please. Please convince me otherwise if you can, I know pokemon is rng but using rat is just.... crazy.


PS: sorry for campaigning.
 
"Stone Edge Simulat used Knock Off!
The opposing Jellicent avoided the attack!


The opposing Jellicent used Water Spout!
Stone Edge Simulat lost 100% of its health!


Stone Edge Simulat fainted!"


For the second time........ Put Rat-A in B please. This thing only does one thing "decently", use a Z double edge SD set to wallbreak, but I wouldnt seriously consider using this in a team unless I'm using gravity setters. Yeah, "LOL" seems like the correct answer to this statement, but I'm using the power of my freedrom of speech.
Anyway:
1) using rat is "useful" versus stall mostly, which means you are using with a "counterteaming purpose", so as a (very) niche mon, right? (toucannon, beheeyem..)
2) absol works better vs any other playstyle (band doesnt miss and can click moves, SD can sweep with a priority move that doesnt miss :000)
3) absol is cooler.
4) see 3).
5) Dont tell me rat=drampa=abomasnow=raichu-A=persian. 4 of these mons have a great niche. If you spell their names you won't find any "t".

However Absol isnt a big deal in the current meta so I'm suggesting this instead: move rat-A down. Please. Please convince me otherwise if you can, I know pokemon is rng but using rat is just.... crazy.


PS: sorry for campaigning.
Now I’m not the most educated person on PU, but it just looks like your argument has boiled down to personal bias. It just looks like you're blaming the system for hax rather then listing why you believe that A-Rat has gotten worse in the current metagame. As an example, if I were to use a Moltres in UU and I kept missing my Fire Blasts and Hurricanes would I start to claim that Moltres itself is a bad Pokémon? I’m sorry but do you see how faulty that sort of reasoning is?

As for A-Rat itself it should stay in B+. What Absol lacks vs A-Rat is initial power for it to build with and it needs a Swords Dance in order to start dishing out some good damage. Yes A-Rat is great for the stall matchup but it still finds itself having good matchups vs other teams and is effective at shutting down the new ghosts of the tier. So if we want to play the analogy game, A-Rat is actually a lot similar to Heracross in that regard. A mon that’s excellent against the stall matchup but still finds itself capable of ripping apart different playstyles when played correctly.

I’m still not very knowledgeable on PU so correct me if I’m wrong on any of this info.
 
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"Stone Edge Simulat used Knock Off!
The opposing Jellicent avoided the attack!


The opposing Jellicent used Water Spout!
Stone Edge Simulat lost 100% of its health!


Stone Edge Simulat fainted!"


For the second time........ Put Rat-A in B please. This thing only does one thing "decently", use a Z double edge SD set to wallbreak, but I wouldnt seriously consider using this in a team unless I'm using gravity setters. Yeah, "LOL" seems like the correct answer to this statement, but I'm using the power of my freedrom of speech.
Anyway:
1) using rat is "useful" versus stall mostly, which means you are using with a "counterteaming purpose", so as a (very) niche mon, right? (toucannon, beheeyem..)
2) absol works better vs any other playstyle (band doesnt miss and can click moves, SD can sweep with a priority move that doesnt miss :000)
3) absol is cooler.
4) see 3).
5) Dont tell me rat=drampa=abomasnow=raichu-A=persian. 4 of these mons have a great niche. If you spell their names you won't find any "t".

However Absol isnt a big deal in the current meta so I'm suggesting this instead: move rat-A down. Please. Please convince me otherwise if you can, I know pokemon is rng but using rat is just.... crazy.


PS: sorry for campaigning.
I've seen this argument against Raticate-alola so many times. I somewhat understand your view on it having the chance to miss, as in some crucial situations (like the one you put at the beginning of the post) it can completely screw you over. Hell, we would all be pissed in the moment and just say 'screw Raticate-alola im only going to use Absol.'

But, I do believe the risk/reward is greatly in Raticate's favour. It hits like an absolute truck, and has a great match up against Balance and Bulky offense. I know its obvious, but having the Z crystal allows you to nuke a good portion of the tier while also having 100% accuracy. It's dual stab is only resisted by 3 Pokemon in the whole tier, Pawniard, Carbink, and Mawile. Which all haven't seen great usage in awhile. Its got a pretty good speed tier for what it wants to come in on and threaten out, outspeeding the likes of Jellicent, Sandslash-Alola, Stoutland, Aurorus, Defensive Mesp, ect. It really is a great breaker, and I hope after reading this post people will use it more. Or at least just toy around with it.

So idk, I think you should take a step back from just being pissed you missed a move in a crazy important situation and look at the bigger picture. Because while we dont see a ton of Raticate-Alola in high level gameplay. I don't think B would represent its actual place in the tier or metagame as a whole.
 

Ktütverde

Always turning thoughts into things
is a Tiering Contributor
I will let other people discuss about B ranks if they want to. I just see audino in B, tangela in B, rat in B+, zangoose in B, persian in B+, bellossom B+... Well.
I just find most stuff here isnt where it should be , and i might be wrong. But maybe they arent discussed enough too, or not tested at all. I'm just saying that rat should be B because it is less good than stuff like persian/raichu-A both B+, and as good or worse than absol (B). Saying that rat "is ok in B+" doesnt mean anything, rankings are supposed to be compared to each other, not to have an intrinsic value. So yeah, if people who disagree with me could compare rat to mons below it or in the same subrank, it could maybe shed a different light on the topic. I'm not basing my post on a "bias" or whatever, just trying to do some cleaning in the B section ig.

Drops:
-rat
-bellossom
-zangoose
-silvally-D

Rises:
-Audino
-Tangela

Reasons: bello<tangela and bello being just bad (yeah lol sorry) ; zangoose extremely unreliable and shouldnt be used, ever; u got stoutland and kanga. HO bellydrum really sucks especially with froslass and lycanrock being common ; dragonvally kinda useless now that pyro and kingler and magmortar are gone ; rat: u know why ; audino: always works even in some awkward offensive stalls and balances, hard to take down and supports any team pretty well; tangela amazing stall and balance mon.
 
Raticate-A is just so solid in options in just stab and u-turn cheese

I think it's just always going to be a more nasty absol as a physical attacker and it's a little bulkier and faster letting You aggressively switch in the Rat more often into dark/ghost

Jyxn was definitely known at a time for its lovely kiss sweeping set and it was switching in when it'd force something out to cover its whiff better

It is the hardest hitting dark mon and pursuit user, I think its fine, but I ran scarf adamant
 

Megazard

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is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
PU Leader
I know I just linked an hour long podcast that a lot of people won't want to sit through, but a lot of the discussion here is relevant to the VR. Among other things: It was pointed out that I didn't really provide much reasoning for Cuno and the change might've seemed weird since it's only seen a big spike on stall, but that really is why it rose so far. Cuno is a pivotal part of making stall significantly better than it has been in past metas and its Jellicent checking and Defog support is pretty major in a meta where both of those aren't super easy to come by. Also I agree with some of the sentiments behind Alolan Raticate, the rant nature of the post means I'm sure people have written off the complaints about accuracy but I don't think a drop to B is unwarranted simply because it's not a reliable option like Stoutland or Kangaskhan (Absol is its own story).
 

Dusknoir: C -> C- or D

Was looking through the VR and noticed this. It shouldn't be C-rank, it doesn't check or do anything that something else can check or do better, namely Froslass and Jellicent, who have both dropped relatively recently and can both spinblock, wisp, taunt and deal decent damage, the former of which can also set spikes. Gurdurr also switches in on wisp and proceeds to setup on Dusknoir or destroy it with Knock Off. It doesn't even have a half decent ability. Yeah, it's got pretty good defences, but it's abysmal HP counteracts this. This guy does nothing wholly unique in the current meta, and it's defences are probably the only thing keeping me from nomming it to Unranked.


Simisear: D -> C-

Simisear's relevance has only increased now that Ninetales has left PU and Simisear is the only fast Fire-type on the VR. The main reason that many think it deserves a rise is because of the new drops, 2 out of 3 of which Simisear both lures and threatens, with it's ability to both OHKO Quagsire and 2HKO Jellicent with Grass Knot. Not many mons have access to Fire/Grass coverage outside of Hidden Power on top of Nasty Plot, which allows Simisear to setup during switches to Jelli or Quag for a guaranteed OHKO on both next turn.

PS: I think the council overlooked it but I made a Chimecho nom a while back and it hasn't been voted on yet. Here's the link: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-pu-viability-rankings.3614892/page-16#post-7924416
 
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Oricorio-Pom-Pom: A- >A

In the current meta with stuff like Dodrio and Jellicent being as big of threats as they are, Pom-Pom is very good option to run on teams as it checks a good amount of stuff right now. I don't see Pom-Pom and Sensu both sitting at A- together as Pom-Pom is a more viable option, it is better then Sensu in the meta. Especially with Froslass/Jellicent around right now it makes it harder to stick Sensu onto teams as Jellicent/Froslass both fill in the ghost slot and running it together with Sensu is just not practical but Pom-Pom is able to operate with both Lass/Jelli just fine while also being a nice check to some of the bigger threats in the meta right now like Dodrio, Jelli, Lilligant, Gurdurr and Scyther to name a few.



Weezing A- >B+/B

Weezing within the current meta is just not as valuable or viable as it once was. The physical threats in the meta are able to blow through it right now so its job of walling or checking physical threats just isn't quite up to par. Dodrio even when unboosted with the SD set while runningFlynium Z, it can bust through Weezing and 2hko it so Weezing isn't able to switch in to eat the intial attack. CB Dodrio can straight up 2hko it as well. Not to mention Aggron has little trouble busting it. Even Stoutland can 2hko it and burning Stoutland doesn't always hinder it as it often carries Facade so being burned only makes Weezing's job harder. It can't be switched in and take hits from many of the more common physical Pokemon right now and instead has to let something else take the hit and most likely get killed to then come in to try to WoW. That's just not a good feeling to have overall. There also has been a real decrease in Fighting type's because of the rise of Dodrio, Quag and Jellicent.which Weezing helped cripple. I just find trouble finding a real spot for Weezing to be consistent and successful in the current meta and It does not seem to be A- worthy anymore as it just isn't on the same level as Quagsire who has access to a recovery move outside of pain split and can take a few more hits as a result.
 

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