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Megazard

The turtle moves
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Double posting because I really like the noms we went 50/50 on.
Mudsdale A+ to A: Voted to leave it but since the vote I've actually changed my mind. We should drop both Mudsdale and Regirock. Neither are remotely bad and they're both super splashable, but the primary wallbreakers have cycled back around to those which abuse the pair well and it's just a function of the meta we're in. Even when you use something like Lycanroc, slapping a Specs Jellicent or Exeggutor on really complicates the lives of those two mons. This is honestly unsurprising when you consider Teddeh was the one pushing the nom originally, he sees farther ahead than plebs like me.
Alolan Raichu B+ to A-: Yeah the threat level of this mon has risen a lot, it's still kinda matchup hit-or-miss but really you miss less often and hit is a lot stronger so there's that. It also really does have more variability than people give it credit for, checking Grass Knot and Substitute can be very different and other sets are genuinely not bad (sash!!)
Leafeon B- to B: Super hard no. I've actually been testing this thing a decent amount, and whether it's Synthesis, Substitute, Chlorophyll sets, Z-Double Edge, Grassium, X-Scissor... I've tried all these different things but they don't fix this mon's flaws. It has no defensive presence, is incredibly hit or miss whether it's going to be able to break the opposing team, has gotten hit real hard by Alolan Exeggutor and Articuno spiking in popularity, suffers from the large amount of Helmets in the meta even though you're usually running a Z-move... 4/10 mon and I'm much more on the side of dropping it tbh. Shiftry is leagues better and I haven't used Victreebel but at least on paper it can break egg.
Shiftry B- to B: No, it's better than Leafeon but you still just can't use it on almost any teams and it's normally not incredibly effective due to how many natural checks you go. Completely solid mon that I wouldn't call crap or consider dropping, but fine where it's at.
Munchlax C+ to lower: I mean nobody's using it but on paper I don't think it's gotten worse at all, checks Egg and Cuno nicely and more Ghost immunities are good, none of its weaknesses have really changed. To want to drop it I'd need to see someone with more experience give more weight to the nomination.
Hippopotas D to Unranked: So apparently the argument is "Sand is good in theory". I don't agree with that, let alone with it being decent in practice. Will continue to champion this until someone else uses Sand and manages to come to the opposite conclusion.
 

No one beats the bug

Banned deucer.
Silvally BUG for C

  • resists fighting, dark, others
  • MIXED ATTACKER strats
  • p. good speed
  • flagship set of flamethrower, surf, air slash, and memory attack is super effective against >90% of tier
  • extremely versatile member of all teams
    • (can be used mono-bug teams)
  • most teams do not have a dedicated Silvally BUG counter
  • clearly better than most everything in "D" range
Don't believe me, watch this particular replay
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-833343614

When you vote, remember the slogan "vote yes on Silvally!"
 
Slaking Unranked to D


Slaking @ Choice Band
Ability: Truant
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch
- Slack Off

Let me make my case. Slaking, as we all know, is absolute trash and unusable in almost every single play style except one (imo): stall. Thanks to the defensive backbone of every single other member of your team, you are allowed the opportunity to click a move with a whopping 628 attack to nuke something on the opponent's side without much drawback at all. The move Slack Off and its amazing speed stat is why I think using this wallbreaker over others on stall is noteworthy. Slaking forces a lot of switches from your opponent which gives Slaking free opportunities to Slack Off and nuke something later on throughout the game. Its base 150/100/65 defenses also means you can switch in on a lot of moves and instantly threaten out your opponent or get a KO depending on the situation. Having cleric and wish support from Audino is super nice for Slaking too as it lets Slaking switch in on moves that risk status. Slaking allows stall to have instant offensive pressure while also having a method of beating pesky stallbreakers like Oricorio-Sensu and PomPom. Using this on any other playstyle except stall is an instant L for you, but trust me, it is one of the best members a stall team can have thanks to its insane nuking power while also letting your team have instant offensive pressure against your opponent. Double-Edge, Earthquake, and Thunder Punch is near-perfect coverage and a well-played Slaking backed by stall is one of the scariest things someone can face.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-831895785
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-832757645 (Skip to turn 37)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-833579697
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-834009692
 
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Just a few thoughts

You can lower his speed my one point and still outspeed neutral +2 Carracosta. I don't think pu has any base 100 speed pokemon to use

I'd think pursuit should be slashed so You can get the kill more reliably and there can't be normal/ghost minigames against You but I can see not wanting to pursuit when they switch to a ghost

Slanking is a wierd gimmick mon kind of like shednija that random teams have done well with in the past in tiers. I've seen it rocked in ou with solid results. I'm not saying it isn't viable as much as it just makes me think of one off cheese options that can seriously pull weight like clampearl

I think it should be ranked if can be taken as a serious win con for stall otherwise I think there are better banded mons to think about

Not against but I'd want to explore it
 

tondas

spent my time folding time even met myself onetime
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Alolan Exeggutor to A+

Right, so I haven't posted anything notable here in recent time but I wanted to quickly address how phenomenal this mon is in current meta. Choice Specs 2HKOes a large selection of special blanket checks (even things like null have a good chance of straight-up losing if it hard switches with negligible chip or into a layer of spikes) and the fact that psuedo-tr is viable on the basis of Eggy alone means it's a nightmare from preview. Specs can get in against bulkier teams with little issue thanks to having solid bulk or even in some cases an advantageous set of resistances which lets it rock against defensive staples like Jelli, Muds, Quag, defensive Mes, dbond-less Qwil, Regirock, etcetera. ho or offense without a healthy defensive backbone or spdef sponge legit picks 2+ sacks if tr Eggy finds time to set off mid-to-late game which isn't difficult at all since it can capitalise on the aforementioned mons plus things like locked Toge/Kabutops, Lilligant, and then some. Obviously specs and tr don't have an equal matchup against different builds but the fact that Eggy almost always accomplishes things for teams is more than enough to put it aside behemoths like Aggron and Stoutland.
 

Taskr

Yo, it's the hyperman set
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Got a couple of noms here I put forward to council but I just wanted to post to get some opinions.


Aggron from A+ to A
Aggron has definitely fell off quite a bit in this meta and it's most likely down to other wallbreakers such as Choice Specs Jellicent and Stoutland being able to outspeed and take advantage of Aggron as well as every Pokemon and their mothers creeping the 220 speed tier. Aggron also can't reliable act as a Flying or Psychic check since a lot of Pom Poms and Mesprits are running HP Ground or Fighting right now.


Gurdurr from A+ to A
This one's a little more controversial in my opinion but I can justify it. Gurdurr has gotten harder to build with in this meta since the demand for a Water resist often leads me to favour Poliwrath in most of my builds as it is also a good Rock check and stops Jellicent from spamming Water Spout. Speaking of Jellicent, special breaker usage is through the roof with the lack of Clefairy running around so Pokemon like Specs Alolan Exeggutor can check Gurdurr pretty well and there is also the fact that Mesprit, Jellicent and Pom Pom are on every team which doesn't give Gurdurr a lot of leeway.


Oricorio Pom-Pom from A to A+
Pom Pom is a very versitale Pokemon in this meta and it can check a Grass-types like Lilligant, Flying-types like Dodrio as well as Fighting-types like Gurdurr. Role compression is not the only thing this Mon has going for it though, Pom Pom can pretty much choose it's checks and counters with a variety of options such as Calm Mind, Taunt, Substitute, Toxic, HP Ground or HP Fighting so in general it can be super hard to counter it.


Omastar from A to A-
I just tend to find this thing super unreliable as a sweeper since it needs a free turn to set up and can be easily revenge killed by the plethora of priority in the tier after it has just reduced its own defenses. Even as a spiker I'm more inclined to use Froslass or Qwilfish in its place.


Quagsire from A- to A
This thing walls pretty much every physical attacker in the tier bar like Stoutland and obviously Grass types but it can be a great option for balance builds if you can cover its bases on the special side. It is also surprisingly hard to switch into for a defensive mon since if you don't have a Roselia or something it can freely Toxic or throw out attacks.


Simisear from C- to B-
Fire Types are really just not prepped for right now on some teams and the ones that do have Fire resists is usually just a Jellicent slapped on which Simisear can take advantage of with Grass Knot. You can see this in my game 1 game vs HJAD for seasonal where he literally didn't have a Fire resist so Simisear managed to KO every Pokemon on his side. Simisear also sits at a decent speed tier, being able to outspeed all the stuff in the base 90's like Pinsir, Silvally and Swanna.

other serious nom opinions:
-> A+: Agree
 
Rises


Rotom-Frost from B+ to A-

Rotom-F is a nice Defogger and check to common hazard setters like Mudsdale, Qwilfish, Omastar, and it can even handle defensive Mesprit. Not to mention it can reliably check other top tier threats like Skuntank, Jellicent, Oricorios, and Alolan Exeggutor with its STAB moves. I think its great offensive typing, overall utility, and an absurdly powerful Subzero Slammer justify it being A-. Of course, Togedemaru counters it, but Rotom-F can neutralize it with Will-O-Wisp.


Crustle from Unranked to C-/D

King Crab @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- X-Scissor
- Rock Wrecker
- Earthquake

I know this nomination sounds like a joke but it actually isn't. If used correctly, Crustle can be an insane early-game wallbreaker or late-game cleaner. Rock Wrecker hits everything that doesn't resist extremely hard, especially after a boost. Thanks to its great defense stat, Crustle can even set up on offensive stuff like Stoutland and Hitmonchan. Crustle is also a decent suicide lead, but that's a different story.

I think these replays can explain it better:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-833758230 theoretical "check" scarf toge gets OHKOed on the switch
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-832408600 theoretical "counter" mudsdale almost gets one-shot. crustle later doubles in to one-shot roselia for lack of better switch-in

Drops


Pyukumuku from B- to C

Recent drop Quagsire outshines Pyuku in almost every way. Unlike Pyuku, Quagsire is not entirely passive, allowing it to find a spot on some balance teams. Quagsire is also better on stall too, though. By virtue of its secondary Ground-typing, Quag doesn't fear Lycanroc, Aggron, and Togedemaru in the same way Pyuku does. Also, having STAB Earthquake permits Quag to check Skuntank rather than relying on Soak + Toxic.


Misdreavus from C+ to C/C-

Misdreavus is kind of bad. There are so many other Ghost-types that are better spinblockers and better in general. Jellicent and Sableye perform the stallbreaking role much more effectively and Oricorio-G and Haunter outclass it as a sweeper.
 

uhuhuhu7

Property of UOG Corporation
is a Tiering Contributor
Figured I'd give my opinion on some of the suggested noms. I've got one or two myself up my sleeve but I'll be holding those back until I have something more solid to support my case.


Leafeon: B- to B: (Disagree)
I've played with Leafeon some more and it just... isn't that good.
It has some speed and it has some bulk, but it doesn't have enough of either to avoid being revenge killed by the various faster mons in the tier like Scyther, Dodrio, Raichu-A etc.
It's also not very strong. Even mons like Gurdurr, Aggron and Skuntank don't have much trouble taking non-Z attacks, even at +2, let alone dedicated physdef walls like Gourgeist-Super and Articuno.
Edit - had some feedback (s/o to Specs Jigglypuff especially) and figured I should go over this one again because I did a pretty bad job explaining myself:
The main problem I've noticed with Leafeon is that because of its good but not exceptional stats it struggles to perform its role as either a breaker or a sweeper. I didn't intend to put across Skunk or Gurdurr as counters to Leafeon because they clearly aren't, but moreso to show the lack of any raw power behind Leafeon that you see in other breakers like Raticate-A and Absol in B. It doesn't have the immediate power to break down teams, and even after getting a SD boost Leafeon finds itself being forced out far too easily. On the flip side, even with a reliable recovery move in Synthesis it's hard to find ways to come into battle that give it the (often necessary) setup due to its poor defensive typing and somewhat average defensive stats
tl;dr Leafeon can break, but it has a hard time setting up, is underwhelming without the boost and often ends up trading kills unless it's in a particularly favourable matchup.


Aggron: A+ to A: (Agree)
The meta's just adapted to it. Mudsdale usage is at an all-time high, faster wallbreakers like Jellicent and Omastar are abusing its speed tier, and it's just harder to use now that people are using HP Ground Mesprit and HP Fighting Oricorio. It's still good, but it's better suited to A tier alongside Aurorus.


Gurdurr: A+ to A: (Disagree)
Personally I don't think it's that hard to build with Gurdurr - there are more checks to Jellicent than just Poliwrath. Gurdurr still provides a status absorber, solid win-con, priority and can blanket check a suprising amount of physical attackers in the tier, especially if using a more defensive spread. Pom-Pom usage isn't great for it, but I don't think it's enough for Gurdurr to drop a subrank.


Oricorio Pom-Pom: A to A+ (Agree)
This thing is great right now, both as an offensive wincon and a defensive stallbreaker. Despite only having three viable attacking moves (including Hidden Power) it has a lot of flexibility in what it can run and it's hard to find games where this mon doesn't put in work in some fashion.


Rotom-Frost: B+ to A- (Disagree)
Might just be me, but I find it's really hard to find teams this can work on. It's weak to rocks, doesn't have reliable recovery (restricting itself to Pain Split) and a defensive typing that leaves it struggling to come in on much without taking a hefty chunk of damage. The Z-Blizzard offensive set is definitely worth using and (correct me if I'm wrong) are why it's a B+ rank pokemon but as hazard control it really struggles.


Crustle: Unranked to C-/D (Disagree)
In a vacuum, this pokemon is worth C-, but it's just completely outdone by Omastar and Carracosta. Carracosta shares Sturdy with it but has the benefits of a better secondary typing and decently strong priority in Aqua Jet to take out weakened scarfers like Togedemaru and Primeape. And that's Carracosta, who is for the most part outclassed by Omastar due to the superior power and speed Omastar possesses prior to boosting. In both replays a Carracosta could have done equally as much damage (if not more) than Crustle.
As a hazard setter it's alright but again outdone by Omastar... it just doesn't have enough of a niche to be considered worth using. Same reason Volbeat is ranked but Illumise isn't, Gourgeist-Super is the only forme ranked, etc.
Crustle just doesn't stand out and even if it can put in work it isn't worth using compared to the other two Shell Smashers we have already.


Hippopotas: D to Unranked (Agree)
I tried using sand ages ago. It was bad then and it's still bad now. Drop it.
 
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yogi

farewell
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Aurorus > A+

ok idgi, why was this mon dropped? meta is actually v good for it rn, less clef means it can just go timid and still smash stuff with its stupidly strong blizzards. hail core of aurorus + alolan sandslash abuses a load of currently good shit, with it just messing and setting up on a load of current breakers and scarfers like choice-locked stout, toge, etc. also the biggest thing that goes in favour for its rise is that like, no one is running proper ice resists! like i've watched loads of games recently, circuit, ladder, room tours, and people just rely on togedemaru to deal with ice-types, which is just mega lol rn. yeah some people, including myself, use spd alolan sandslash, but most ppl are relying on either offensive pressure or just flimsy af resists that can switch in what, once. also, i've seen so so so many teams that'd straight fold to scarf aurorus, which btw is still a great set, so overall this mon should be back in a+. legit one of the dumbest breakers in the tier.
 
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UberSkitty

cuz I got banned from OU
is a Contributor to Smogon
Ok. Ok. OK. This one will be short. Actually it probably will be because a lotta this is just noms I agree with.

My noms:
Victreebel: B- -> B
Sun is good I swear!!! But in all seriousness, Victreebel's 3 Attacks + Strength Sap set is just so good right now. Well, so good in a rise to B rank way. Strength Sap has its obvious niche with it allowing Victreebel to take a physical hit while gaining health back, and on top of Victreebel's solid offensive stats and movepool, the two combined give it both a defensive and offensive presence. And speaking of that offensive presence, Victreebel can go either physical or special, whther you want to run around spamming Power Whip or Leaf Storm. Either which was you go, it even has a solid chance to OHKO Oricorio-Pom-Pom with Z-Poison Jab or Z-Sludge Bomb, so that's cool. Finally, its just a cool offensive check for a good chunk of threats like Jellicent, Lilligant, Alolan Exeggutor, ect.

Bronzor: C+ -> B-
I hate this mon, and I know this mon has been brought up for a raise before, and the same things still apply here. However, the main difference is that both Stoutland and Alolan Exeggutor have rose in usage and viability, and its able to counter the former while still having a solid matchup against the latter in that it makes most of its moves less spammable. Overall I'd say this mon is better material than C+, but that might just be my hatred for this mon talking.

Throh: B- -> C+
Throh isn't used too often, and for good reasoning in that it greatly struggles to keep up with its competition. Gurdurr makes for a better Bulk Up mon while Poliwrath is a better Restalk Circle Throw spammer, while both cover the same amount, if not more, threats. Throh's main advantage over the two is in its overall better natural stats, but even that can't keep up with Gurdurr's Eviolite boost, Poliwrath's secondary typing, and their other advantages like access to priority moves. This is starting to sound like another pseudo analysis now, so I'm gonna stop talking.

Weezing: B+ -> B
This is another mon that isn't used too often, and competition does have to do with it. Qwilfish is just a generally better option with stuff like Intimidate, higher Speed, Spikes, the list goes on. Weezing does have its advantages, like Levitate and less weaknesses, but even then those can be countered by facts like Alolan Dugtrio still beats it and super-effective moves on Qwilfish like Eelektross's Volt Switch still do a lot to Weezing. Not triggering Primeape's Defiant is also a thing, but that mon has definitely plummeted in usage. I do think it deserves to be at the same rank as the other Toxic Spike user in Roselia.

Noms I agree with:
Raichu: B+ -> A-
It does on-paper deal with some 4MSS, but in practice it can just really put in work. Running Psychium Z really helps with the 4MSS in my experience, being able to hit Mudsdale while still being able to run Substitute.
Drampa: B+ -> B
Honestly I'd rather use Alolan Exeggutor instead nine times outta ten, I wouldn't be against this dropping all the way down to B-. You know, until Alolan Exeggutor is stolen by NU.
Simisear: C- -> B-
Maybe it's a bit early to be raising this so much higher also I prefer Simisage, but yeah this is definitely an underrated offensive threat right now.
Pyukumuku: B- -> C
I'd say drop this mon even lower. Quagsire is just so much better and has already become a staple on stall, doing pretty much the same thingwhile also being able to beat things like Clefairy 1v1. At this point the only reason I'd run this mon on stall is for its gimmicky PP stall set.
Misdreavus: C+ -> C/C-
I always forget this mon is in C+ because it's just too high for it simply because Froslass does almost everything better. The main things it has over Froslass is the better matchup against hazards and slightly better bulk, but most of the time those aspects wouldn't make me prefer this mon on a team over Froslass.
Silvally-Bug: UR -> S
The BUG!!!

Other noms I agree with but for obvious reasons:
Alolan Exeggutor: A -> A+
Oricorio-Pom-Pom: A -> A+
Quagsire: A- -> A
Hippopotas: D -> UR

Noms I disagree with:
Omastar: A -> A-
People underrate this mon so much. First of all, setting up isn't too hard with the help of a teammate like Alolan Persian or if you manage to get a good switchin and trigger Weak Armor. Second, Hitmonchan and Poliwrath, and Gurdurr somewhat, have fallen in usage meaning Omastar doesn't have to worry as much about their priority. Lastly, Togedemaru is the most common Choice Scarf mon, and this mon being sent in can potentially become a 50/50 in the right matchup as to whether you want to hard Togedemaru and risk the Earth Power. Other notes about Omastar is that Timid does let it outspeed Choice Scarf Timid Mesprit and Jolly Kabutops, Z-Earth Power at +2 has a solid chance to OHKO Jellicent after Stealth Rock with Timid, and its high Defense in general means it can't just be easily picked off by something like Skuntank's Sucker Punch even at -2 Defense. Maybe I've just had better luck with it in practice or I'm looking at too many on-paper facts, but I still think its good enough for A.

Other noms I disagree with but for obvious reasons:
Crustle: UR -> C-/D
Slaking: UR -> D


There's also all those Aggron, Gurdurr, and Aurorus stuff flying around, but I'm gonna stay out of that. Otherwise, that wasn't so long, right? Also one final note, I was considering nomming Poliwrath for B+, but I realized something. (insert cliffhanger here) There is one problem with B+ being overcrowded in that it raises the range in which how viable Pokemon can be to reach it. Just some food for thought.
 
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Yoshi

All my enemies started out friends
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-> A+
I know this nomination was talked about quite a bit above but I just want to entertain the idea again since I believe it is really important that this Pokemon gets attention right now. Like tondas said, the effect that this Pokemon has on the meta is extremely noticeable, especially when you are running HO or plain offense. Oftentimes you find yourself with no counter play period, let alone defensive counter play, as once Trick Room goes up you are going to have to pick a few sacks. I've personally found it to be a fairly splashable Pokemon, there are a lot of different ways you can fit it onto teams, although of course it isn't the most splashable Pokemon in the tier. Overall, this Pokemon has a massive effect on the current meta and should rise to A+ to reflect that.

-> B+
I was looking in the A ranks for this thing the other day and I was a little confused to see it in B. While Manectric is fairly weak, I think the decreased usage of Choice Scarf users such as Primeape and Scyther and bulky walls like Clefairy definitely help it out in the current meta. I believe it is actually one of the more splashable Choice Scarfers right now, and while you could argue that Togedemaru is an option for an Electric Choice Scarf user, sometimes the Special Attack and the extra coverage is what a team is looking for. Another thing that has improved Manectric over the past few weeks is the rise of Oricorio-E (I think that's the Electric one). Manectric can easily switch into it, and while again Togedemaru is better at doing that thanks to the quad resistances, it is still an option out there in case you're worried about a Fighting weakness, or something along those lines. Overall, I've had great success with Manectric in the time I've played this tier, and while Togedemaru can be a better option, I think Manectric can fit on more teams than we give it credit to be able to. If you haven't tried it recently, I'd definitely recommend doing so.
 

Megazard

The turtle moves
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PU Leader
Sorry, this update's definitely a bit overdue. Still, lots of good discussion here, and at least we're doing something before the January shifts.

Rises
Alolan Exeggutor A to A+
Oricorio-Pom-Pom A to A+
Alolan Raichu B+ to A-
Victreebel B- to B
Metang C to B-
Simisear C- to B :psysly:

Drops
Mudsdale A+ to A
Regirock A+ to A
Aggron A+ to A
Gurdurr A+ to A
Omastar A to A-
Throh B- to C+
Munchlax C+ to C
Pyukumuku B- to C-
Misdreavus C+ to C-
Hippopotas D to Unranked
Aurorus A to A+
Quagsire A- to A
Rotom-Frost B+ to A-
Weezing B+ to B
Drampa B+ to B
Manectric B to B+
Leafeon B- to B
Shiftry B- to B
Bronzor C+ to B-
Slaking Unranked to D
Crustle Unranked to D
Silvally-Bug Unranked to C
I think a lot of these higher rank nominations can be best viewed as taking a step back and really figuring out what defines the tier at the moment. Eggy and PomPom have massive utility and building impact, they're constantly large threats and get to run varied excellent sets. Mudsdale, Regirock, Gurdurr, Aggron, and Omastar all require more support than they ever have and just don't really define the defensive or offensive meta like they used to, with an influx of new checks and popular options. Pompom definitely might be controversial, but we were pretty solidly in favor because of how consistently strong and relevant it is at the moment, and it makes sense next to other somewhat easy to check but overall highly relevant and dangerous Pokemon like Lycanroc and Togedemaru. Moving lower, rises for Alolachu/Vic/Metang/Simisear are just overdue for their resurgence back into the meta, all four of them basically dropped off the map and only really started to see acceptance in the last month or so and some drastic rises were definitely necessary here. On the drop side, Throh/Munchlax/Missy have all seen their niches start to become less and less useful, although they're not completely irrelevant in this meta. Pyuku was way overdue with Quagsire's presence, and Hippo got unranked because Sand hasn't been a remotely relevant playstyle in forever and we're highly doubtful that it has any viability whatsoever.

For some rejected things- Aurorus is good but not meta defining, Quagsire and Rotom just... aren't that relevant? Neither nom is remotely out of the question, but both pokemon lack the splashability or consistency to feel like a raise was warranted. Weezing and Drampa managed to stick around by being generally inoffensive, personally I find them to be far less relevant than other B+ mons like Clefairy and Ludicolo but they are really effective at some fairly specific niches. Manectric doesn't see much tour usage because it's really hit or miss and will pretty much always be naturally checked by any team which diminishes how good its offensive sets can get, even non-choice are really prediction reliant. Leafeon is terrible, Shiftry isn't relevant enough (Bellossom, Roselia, Lurantis, and Victreebel now are all in the rank above so it's really hard for these dudes), Bronzor just needs better showings before there's a reason to bump it up, and all the unranked mons suck. There is still nothing to the Slaking or Crustle nominations whatsoever, people have tried to find compelling reasons to seriously use them on competitive teams over and over but they keep failing.

I really like where the VR is at the moment and the discussion here has kept improving so thanks for that. I'm probably going to dump a bunch of noms here once shifts are out and circuit is done, but until those wrap up I do have some major discussion points. Alolan Sandslash A to A+: this thing still has crazy role compression, but Hail keeps falling out of relevance and it's a mon that can actually suffer quite a lot from people over prepping with lure hidden powers and whatnot (idk im having a hard time finding reasoning against this ngl). Alolan Exeggutor A+ to S: Still don't know if it's unhealthy, definitely not broken, but it has probably the biggest teambuilding impact of any individual mon in my opinion and it's just damn good. Jellicent S to A+: I definitely didn't think we were ready for this when Ktut brought it up months ago, but as the meta's progressed it's more and more become a mediocre wallbreaker because most of the good ones don't immediately get Pursuit trapped after a kill. Massive building impact is still a thing though, defensive sets are incredible but also weirdly rare, and overall I'm not quite sure where I'll go with this one yet but it at least feels important to discuss (until shifts make the question irrelevant anyway). Votes are here, feel free to ask about any specific result on Discord/in my PMs/in the SQSA thread, don't forget to tip your mods and good night.
 
Alolan Sandslash A to A+
Sandslash_(Alola_Form).png
Hello, I wanna start off a discussion about Alo-Slash, I think it definetly belongs to A+, even tho Hail teams falling of grace but this thing still is very effective in two role compressions it offers in one slot, which is Stealth Rock support and also the Rapid Spin factor. The Specially defensive Alo-Slash is really good, can tank a good amount of moves, and is able to do it's things it should do. Icicle Crash offers a Stab which hits everything prety effectfully outside of water and ice mons. I think Alo-Slash is a really good mon and A+ would reflect it's ability and viability more than A does.
Alolan-Slash A+ = Agree

Alolan Exeggutor A+ to S
Exeggutor_(Alola_Form).png
I think Eggy belongs more to S than A+. Choice Specs still is really effective and can wallbreak on it's own pretty decently, this thing moreso gets pushed over the Z-Move + Trick Room set, this Set is really good right now, the ability to have 4 Turns for it meanwhile able to do a good amount if not OHKOing a good portion with the Set is hella good. The factor it can run sooo many different moves is also a thing where the teambuilding struggle starts, Draco Meteor, Sludge Bomb, Flamethrower, Leaf Storm and Giga Drain, which also gives Eggy recovery.
The wallbreaking capabilities are amazing and I think it really belongs more to S than A+.
Alolan-Eggy S = Agree
 
I haven't nominated anything in quite a while and I'm surprised no one has been talking about this mon. I wouldn't be surprised if people forgot about it tbh, it's not good in this meta at all.

: B to B- or C+ (I'm not getting too ahead of myself):
Golurk has been struggling in this meta for a bit now and it definitely needs to drop. The reason why I find this mon struggling is because a lot of the high tier mons just abuse it into oblivion and in most cases, Golurk cannot do its job of being an offensive pokemon that sets up rocks. Jellicent beats it, Aurorus beats it, Stoutland beats it, Froslass beats it. I can continue listing more mons that check it easily but I think you can understand where I'm coming from. Easily pursuit trapped as well (although that can be circumvented with Colbur Berry). You're practically forced to run Jolly in order to not instant lose to Aurorus, however even Timid Aurorus is being run so that doesn't even help.

I look at the viability rankings and I can see this mon in the same position as the newly risen Simisear and Roselia, two mons that have been performing much better as of late in the meta and other mons like Crab, Lurantis and Victreebel, which can perform consistently unlike our friend Golurk here. I just don't think B is a good representation of a pokemon that is easily forced out by our best mons and is severely outclassed as an offensive Ghost-type by Froslass and Jellicent and as a Stealth Rocker by Mudsdale and Regirock.

Also some other nominations/changes I can agree with:
(A+ to S): This mon is extremely dangerous. Choice Specs and OTR are crazy sets which can just auto win games sometimes. I think OTR is slightly better than Specs because you cannot be revenge killed as easily, which is quite important I think. I don't want to expand on this mon too much but this mon can influence teambuilding and whatnot, I am always making sure that I can check eggy since this mon is becoming more and more common.

(C- to B): No one can say this mon is bad anymore. People need to stop sleeping on this mon, it's actually decent. Good speed tier, decent offensive stats alongside Nasty Plot, clearly it has been acknowledged as a good mon and it's no longer niche. Its supposed defensive checks like Lanturn and Regirock can be beaten by Grass Knot so it has the coverage to beat the mons that are supposed to beat it.

(D to UR): we finally unranked this thing sand sucks lul.
Video to counter Robert's post below: : Here
 
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Robert Alfons

DEHUMANIZE YOURSELF AND FACE TO BLOODSHED
is a Tiering Contributor
I haven't nominated anything in quite a while and I'm surprised no one has been talking about this mon. I wouldn't be surprised if people forgot about it tbh, it's not good in this meta at all.

: B to B- or C+ (I'm not getting too ahead of myself):
Golurk has been struggling in this meta for a bit now and it definitely needs to drop. The reason why I find this mon struggling is because a lot of the high tier mons just abuse it into oblivion and in most cases, Golurk cannot do its job of being an offensive pokemon that sets up rocks. Jellicent beats it, Aurorus beats it, Stoutland beats it, Froslass beats it. I can continue listing more mons that check it easily but I think you can understand where I'm coming from. Easily pursuit trapped as well (although that can be circumvented with Colbur Berry). You're practically forced to run Jolly in order to not instant lose to Aurorus, however even Timid Aurorus is being run so that doesn't even help.

I look at the viability rankings and I can see this mon in the same position as the newly risen Simisear and Roselia, two mons that have been performing much better as of late in the meta and other mons like Crab, Lurantis and Victreebel, which can perform consistently unlike our friend Golurk here. I just don't think B is a good representation of a pokemon that is easily forced out by our best mons and is severely outclassed as an offensive Ghost-type by Froslass and Jellicent and as a Stealth Rocker by Mudsdale and Regirock.
Have you actually tried using it? A lot of this post is just misinformed and completely ignores what makes Golurk a viable choice for a team to begin with. First of all, yes, it is correct that breakers that outspeed it and carry supereffective moves beat it in a 1-vs-1 scenario, which is true of uhhh, just about every single Pokemon. Of the 4 Pokemon you mention, Golurk's most direct competition in Mudsdale only fares significantly better than Golurk against Stoutland, while Froslass and Jellicent have more trouble switching into Golurk than Mudsdale due to the former one's access to Iron Fist-boosted Shadow Punch. In fact, whereas defensive Jelli can switch into Mudsdale rather safely, only really fearing Toxic, Golurk can get a clean 2HKO with Earthquake followed by a Shadow Punch if Adamant, and if Jolly it still has a good chance of beating Jellicent on the switchin and in fact can even outspeed and OHKO Modest Specs Jellicent after a little bit of chip. You also mention Aurorus, and you pretend that Golurk having to run Jolly in order to beat it 1v1 is somehow detrimental, even though again, Mudsdale fares worse since it can't even hope to outspeed Aurorus to begin with. So what exactly are you trying to prove here?

You don't properly consider what Golurk actually brings to the table that Mudsdale never could (comparing it to Jellicent and Froslass is kind of a moot point when those Pokemon don't remotely serve a similar role despite them being Ghost-types). Some top tier Pokemon that you would rather not let in for free get in very easily on Mudsdale due to its lacking coverage options (Exeggutor-A, Mesprit (especially Specs which teams that lack Skuntank tend to hate, Lilligant), but all of them fear Golurk's Shadow Punch/Ice Punch. Considering how often somebody's main Ground check is something like Eggy or Mesprit, Golurk's ability to scare them off seems like a pretty good thing, right? There's also the fact that Golurk can spinblock, which may not be as big as it used to be but on the other hand, Hitmonchan wants Thunder Punch over Ice Punch atm to my best knowledge and Sandslash-A can't spin on it very easily either, especially if you're running Yache Berry on Golurk. Speaking of which, Colbur (which btw is the reason why Golurk is not "easy to trap" at all) and Yache are standard Golurk's best options for items and since it can run both viably, it gains a level of unpredictability Mudsdale doesn't really possess, since Mudsdale without Leftovers is a waste of a Mudsdale as far as I can tell. I'm not even bringing up a potential CB set (which for all I know could be decently effective in this meta considering people's Ground-type checks can be rather lacking, judging by some recent circuit matches) or the fact that a No Guard set with Dynamic Punch is a reasonable option (mostly because Ice Punch + Shadow Punch seems so good atm).

I'm not suggesting Golurk is a better option than Mudsdale or even that it belongs in B rank per se, I haven't played enough PU as of late to tell you where it belongs, but what I do know is that your argument mostly seems to bank on "I rarely see Golurk so I guess it's outclassed" (a very common mistake in VR threads) even though it very clearly does have several advantages over its most direct competition. Sure, Mudsdale's defensive utility makes it an easier fit on most teams, but B rank isn't meant for Pokemon that fit very snuggly on the majority on teams (how often do you see Absol or Raticate-A?). Unless you have better arguments as to why Golurk really doesn't function well in this meta in practice, I don't see why your argument is "Golurk doesn't belong in the same rank as Roselia and Simisear so the latter two should rise further" rather than "Golurk doesn't belong in the same rank as Roselia and Simisear so it should drop."
 
Have you actually tried using it? A lot of this post is just misinformed and completely ignores what makes Golurk a viable choice for a team to begin with. First of all, yes, it is correct that breakers that outspeed it and carry supereffective moves beat it in a 1-vs-1 scenario, which is true of uhhh, just about every single Pokemon. Of the 4 Pokemon you mention, Golurk's most direct competition in Mudsdale only fares significantly better than Golurk against Stoutland, while Froslass and Jellicent have more trouble switching into Golurk than Mudsdale due to the former one's access to Iron Fist-boosted Shadow Punch. In fact, whereas defensive Jelli can switch into Mudsdale rather safely, only really fearing Toxic, Golurk can get a clean 2HKO with Earthquake followed by a Shadow Punch if Adamant, and if Jolly it still has a good chance of beating Jellicent on the switchin and in fact can even outspeed and OHKO Modest Specs Jellicent after a little bit of chip. You also mention Aurorus, and you pretend that Golurk having to run Jolly in order to beat it 1v1 is somehow detrimental, even though again, Mudsdale fares worse since it can't even hope to outspeed Aurorus to begin with. So what exactly are you trying to prove here?

You don't properly consider what Golurk actually brings to the table that Mudsdale never could (comparing it to Jellicent and Froslass is kind of a moot point when those Pokemon don't remotely serve a similar role despite them being Ghost-types). Some top tier Pokemon that you would rather not let in for free get in very easily on Mudsdale due to its lacking coverage options (Exeggutor-A, Mesprit (especially Specs which teams that lack Skuntank tend to hate, Lilligant), but all of them fear Golurk's Shadow Punch/Ice Punch. Considering how often somebody's main Ground check is something like Eggy or Mesprit, Golurk's ability to scare them off seems like a pretty good thing, right? There's also the fact that Golurk can spinblock, which may not be as big as it used to be but on the other hand, Hitmonchan wants Thunder Punch over Ice Punch atm to my best knowledge and Sandslash-A can't spin on it very easily either, especially if you're running Yache Berry on Golurk. Speaking of which, Colbur (which btw is the reason why Golurk is not "easy to trap" at all) and Yache are standard Golurk's best options for items and since it can run both viably, it gains a level of unpredictability Mudsdale doesn't really possess, since Mudsdale without Leftovers is a waste of a Mudsdale as far as I can tell. I'm not even bringing up a potential CB set (which for all I know could be decently effective in this meta considering people's Ground-type checks can be rather lacking, judging by some recent circuit matches) or the fact that a No Guard set with Dynamic Punch is a reasonable option (mostly because Ice Punch + Shadow Punch seems so good atm).

I'm not suggesting Golurk is a better option than Mudsdale or even that it belongs in B rank per se, I haven't played enough PU as of late to tell you where it belongs, but what I do know is that your argument mostly seems to bank on "I rarely see Golurk so I guess it's outclassed" (a very common mistake in VR threads) even though it very clearly does have several advantages over its most direct competition. Sure, Mudsdale's defensive utility makes it an easier fit on most teams, but B rank isn't meant for Pokemon that fit very snuggly on the majority on teams (how often do you see Absol or Raticate-A?). Unless you have better arguments as to why Golurk really doesn't function well in this meta in practice, I don't see why your argument is "Golurk doesn't belong in the same rank as Roselia and Simisear so the latter two should rise further" rather than "Golurk doesn't belong in the same rank as Roselia and Simisear so it should drop."
On paper, Golurk sounds like a great anti-lead. To be fair, it isn't bad considering the fact that it can check leads including Lycanroc, defensive Mesprit, Togedemaru, and Regirock. Though in practice, it is underwhelming. The offensive Stealth Rock set with Colbur Berry lacks any sort of firepower that is necessary to break common defensive cores. It struggles with Gurdurr, Mudsdale, Quagsire, Weezing, and other defensive walls because of its need to run Colbur/Yache Berry. Of course, you could run a Z-Move or Choice Band, but its too slow to pull that off effectively. After it fulfills its initial task to set up rocks, it is often later used as nothing more than death fodder. Technically, it can be coined as an "offensive spinblocker" but again, it is too slow and weak to be very threatening at all. Jellicent, Sableye, Spiritomb, Haunter, and even Oricorio-G are much better spinblockers because they actually have a decent defensive/offensive presence.

To conclude, Golurk theoretically sounds like a niche mon, but falls flat once you use it in battle. I'm talking realistic here; if somebody shows me concrete evidence where Golurk actually does well against a team that accurately represents the meta, then I might reconsider my points.

Rises


Silvally-Ground from Unranked to C-/D

Silvally-Ground @ Ground Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 240 HP / 28 SpD / 240 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Toxic
- Defog
- Rest

Silvally-Ground has more utility than one might think. Silvally-Ground can function as a Defogger and solid defensive glue that can come in safely on Volt Switch. The set above enables it to beat most Stealth Rock users in the tier including non-Rest Mudsdale, defensive Mesprit, Aggron, Lycanroc, Regirock, and others. Also, it has just enough speed to cripple the Oricorios with Toxic before they use Taunt or Substitute. Now, you might be wondering why you would use this over Claydol who has access to Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock. The answer is simple: Skuntank. While Silvally-Ground can Defog reliably around Skuntank, Claydol is liable to get Pursuit trapped, undermining its role.

tl;dr Silvally-Ground can Defog consistently against most hazard setters and can also beat Skuntank

Drops


Poliwrath from A- to B+

I've nommed this thing before and I'll nom it again. Poliwrath is a second-rate choice for a defensive option and requires a lot more support than it should, given its role. This thing fits very poorly on balance builds due to the abundance of Flying-types in the tier, so its really only useful on bulkier teams. Even then, Jellicent and Quagsire outshine it. The profuse amounts of Lilligants, Oricorios, Alolan Exeggutors, Jellicents, Mesprits, Froslass, and Eelektross, Scythers, and Dodrios, make this thing deadweight quite frequently. I've used Poli a few times and scarf Toge is almost a mandatory teammate, thereby showing Poli's inhibiting impact on teambuilding.


Lurantis from B to B-

To be fairly honest, I never really understood why Lurantis was ranked B. First of all, its rare to see it. However, when do you do see it in team preview, it's nowhere near as terrifying as other "rare" mons such as Jynx and Kangaskhan. Given the offensive nature of the meta, Lurantis is not what I would call "reliable Defogger" because its slow and loses to the plentiful amount of Flying-types. Its other sets aren't much better.
 

EviGaro

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RU Leader
On paper, Golurk sounds like a great anti-lead. To be fair, it isn't bad considering the fact that it can check leads including Lycanroc, defensive Mesprit, Togedemaru, and Regirock. Though in practice, it is underwhelming. The offensive Stealth Rock set with Colbur Berry lacks any sort of firepower that is necessary to break common defensive cores. It struggles with Gurdurr, Mudsdale, Quagsire, Weezing, and other defensive walls because of its need to run Colbur/Yache Berry.
Ok but that's not at all why you use Golurk, and you seem to almost recognize that. It doesn't break defensive cores cause it's never been its primary role, Golurk does what it has done for years now: setup rocks and use its coverage to keep them up. Like Robert Alfons pointed out, Colbur trades with Skuntank so it can't defog, Yache trades with Articuno / Snowslash provided you have Stone Edge for the former, heck even Passho can trade with Kabutops and the now rarer Swanna. That's what Golurk does best against defensive teams: force them to risk losing their removal and then give your team the hazards advantage its breakers need. Additionally, berries can also be used to lure specific breakers, like Aurorus, and its speed plays a role in how it can punish specific slow breakers if your team lacks safe switches, which again, is very likely on Golurk teams since they tend to be more offensive. It's not "better" than Mudsdale due to its relative struggles in continuously switching into threats and that tends to be more appealing, but it absolutely has a niche.
 

UberSkitty

cuz I got banned from OU
is a Contributor to Smogon

Lurantis from B to B-

To be fairly honest, I never really understood why Lurantis was ranked B. First of all, its rare to see it. However, when do you do see it in team preview, it's nowhere near as terrifying as other "rare" mons such as Jynx and Kangaskhan. Given the offensive nature of the meta, Lurantis is not what I would call "reliable Defogger" because its slow and loses to the plentiful amount of Flying-types. Its other sets aren't much better.
Here we are again, someone saying that a mon should be dropped just because it isn't used often. First of all, this suggests that you've never actually used the mon yourself, which is furthered by that the only in-match example you give is when your opponent has it. Next, just because its not too common doesn't mean its comparable to other seemingly "rare" mons. The only thing it has in common with the two you listed is that they can all run setup, but all do so very differently. Not to mention Kangaskhan isn't even an umcommon mon. If anything, Lurantis gets competition from other Defoggers like Skuntank and bulky Grass-types like Tangela, but in those case the niches are obvious. Lurantis has a solid matchup against various hazard setters like Regirock and Mudsdale, allowing it to threaten them out, which makes it a fine Defogger. It has a much better offensive presence than other bulky Grass-types because of one major point that I haven't mentioned yet, and you hadn't mentioned at all, Contrary. This ability gives it a very definite niche over all the previously stated mons since it allows Lurantis to actually be a very threatening sweeper, giving it that previously mentioned offensive presence. While it is true that this mon doesn't have a good matchup against Flying-types, what does that have to do with its role as a Defogger? It's not like Flying-types are setting up Stealth Rock. And even hazard setters that do have the type advantage over Lurantis like Froslass are threatened by it firing off a Leaf Storm. And you say its other sets aren't much better, but Restalk Lurantis is actually a pretty solid set right now. Similar to Golurk, this mon definitely has a niche. On the contrary, Silvally-Ground sucks.
 
Ok but that's not at all why you use Golurk, and you seem to almost recognize that. It doesn't break defensive cores cause it's never been its primary role, Golurk does what it has done for years now: setup rocks and use its coverage to keep them up. Like Robert Alfons pointed out, Colbur trades with Skuntank so it can't defog, Yache trades with Articuno / Snowslash provided you have Stone Edge for the former, heck even Passho can trade with Kabutops and the now rarer Swanna. That's what Golurk does best against defensive teams: force them to risk losing their removal and then give your team the hazards advantage its breakers need. Additionally, berries can also be used to lure specific breakers, like Aurorus, and its speed plays a role in how it can punish specific slow breakers if your team lacks safe switches, which again, is very likely on Golurk teams since they tend to be more offensive. It's not "better" than Mudsdale due to its relative struggles in continuously switching into threats and that tends to be more appealing, but it absolutely has a niche.
I don't think Passho Berry and Stone Edge are really that viable on Golurk, showing that Golurk can be overwhelmed by the variety of hazard removal in the tier. From what you have been arguing, it seems like Golurk’s effectiveness revolves around which berry it opts to run, meaning running the wrong berry could potentially mean losing the team’s only rocker. On a side note, if Golurk can run Yache Berry to lure in Ice-types, so could Mudsdale, right? I do recognize that Golurk has a niche as an offensive rocker but this is partly outshined by Lycanroc, who can take on all the threats you mentioned much more comfortably. In general, Golurk will be pressured more often than it pressures, again because of its slowness. Golurk’s longevity is low, which hurts it if it’s expected to consistently set up rocks and spinblock throughout the duration of the match.

Here we are again, someone saying that a mon should be dropped just because it isn't used often. First of all, this suggests that you've never actually used the mon yourself, which is furthered by that the only in-match example you give is when your opponent has it. Next, just because its not too common doesn't mean its comparable to other seemingly "rare" mons. The only thing it has in common with the two you listed is that they can all run setup, but all do so very differently. Not to mention Kangaskhan isn't even an umcommon mon. If anything, Lurantis gets competition from other Defoggers like Skuntank and bulky Grass-types like Tangela, but in those case the niches are obvious. Lurantis has a solid matchup against various hazard setters like Regirock and Mudsdale, allowing it to threaten them out, which makes it a fine Defogger. It has a much better offensive presence than other bulky Grass-types because of one major point that I haven't mentioned yet, and you hadn't mentioned at all, Contrary. This ability gives it a very definite niche over all the previously stated mons since it allows Lurantis to actually be a very threatening sweeper, giving it that previously mentioned offensive presence. While it is true that this mon doesn't have a good matchup against Flying-types, what does that have to do with its role as a Defogger? It's not like Flying-types are setting up Stealth Rock. And even hazard setters that do have the type advantage over Lurantis like Froslass are threatened by it firing off a Leaf Storm. And you say its other sets aren't much better, but Restalk Lurantis is actually a pretty solid set right now. Similar to Golurk, this mon definitely has a niche. On the contrary, Silvally-Ground sucks.
Okay, it was my mistake that the primary reasoning for it to drop was because it isn’t used that much. To put my thoughts more clearly, I think the way the metagame has shifted recently has been largely unfavorable to Lurantis (which is partly why its uncommon). It checks certain hazard setters, but so do all the other spinners/Defoggers. I know its a fine Defogger but that's not the reason why I made the nom. As a slow Grass-type, the ubiquity of Flying-types, Ice-types, and Skuntank all undermine its role as a reliable Defogger because it gets threatened out so easily. What I’m getting at is that the current offensive meta in general has negatively affected slower mons that lack immediate firepower (such as Golurk and Lurantis). While it falls in the face of offensive teams, I can see the RestTalk set being effective against more passive teams. Unfortunately for Lurantis, the meta chooses to be a bit more offensive.
 

Ktütverde

no one beats the bug fan
is a Tiering Contributoris the defending PU Circuit Champion
Hello, just wanted to react to some posts, even though I'm often considered as having an odd view on the meta.

1) Seriously, stop spamming "Eggy-A for S rank" "Eggy-A is broken" blah blah. 2 months ago it was almost never seen, so even if it happens to be actually broken, let the meta develop a bit before crying about a dragon tree. We have had kingler, pyroar and magmortar in PU for many months, and they were a fucking lot more broken than eggy. I'm usually the first one to complain about "broken" mons, but I really have to disagree (at least right now) with this Eggy hatred. Eggy is walled by audino and articuno; struggles a lot vs clefairy; and basically doesnt switchin or tank anything particularly well (uturns, skuntank's poison jab, oricorios' stabs, stoutland/aggron/dodrio stabs, lanturn's icebeam). Also froslass KOs it, lycanrock does massive damage. I can understand OTR is scary, but u can always check it or prevent the setting up. Maybe eggy seems "broken" because people like using jellicent, quagsire, mudsdale without a solid spdef tank, idk. But at least let the meta develop a little bit before saying eggy is broken.

2) Jelli shouldn't be S imo. It isn't splashable at all, specs is completely overrated and is definitely not a reliable breaker. It doesn't check anything well (fighting types all beat it), weak to common stuff like lilli, eggy, stoutland and skunk. Defensive colbur is nice, but requires specific support since it lets stuff like eelektross, lanturn, eggy, lilligant, stoutland switchin too easily. Compare this to mesprit's and skunk's splashability and the massive support they bring to most teams without requiring specific partners to actually work. So yeah, why is jelli S

3) Gurdurr A -> A+. Gurd is one of the most meta defining threats, and probably shapes teambuilding more than any other pokemon. There's no doubt pompom has become popular because its one of the most splashable gurdurr checks; quagsire is used over mudsdale in balance teams so as to hard wall gurdurr; specs eggy and Z are also good because they check gurdurr very well. So my point is: gurdurr should always be in A+ at least since it directly AND indirectly affects teambuilding. People I chat with and test teams with usually consider gurdurr has the first thing you have to solidly check when building, and if you look at any competitive teams, they always have a hard gurdurr check and a soft check, at least. Even when you prepare well for it you can end up losing your checks and getting swept by it. Besides, it checks many threats like stout, kanga, skunk, lycan, toge, sandslash etc, it's not even close to be comparable with aurorus, aggron and dodrio, all of them being highly inconsistent and not splashable.


Otherwise I really like the VR atm, glad to see my boys eggy and pom gaining popularity. Don't drop poliwrath, really nice glue and still checks many things like omastar, jelli, lycan, kabutops, persian, aggron, regi, mudsdale. Anyway, tier shift is gonna happen soon, so let's wait and see what happens.

I've never enjoyed PU more than now, really balanced imo, and I hope the community will keep taking the right decisions and adapting to the new threats like it is doing currently. I really feel like people are all getting creative as compared to early and mid 2018, looking forward to see if the meta can become cooler than it is now! Thanks everyone for being cool, creative and for making SM PU the most enjoyable tier I've ever played!

Happy new year!
 
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Many

Ehehehehh
is a Tiering Contributor
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Regice from C to B

Second time I'm nomming the fat iceman up, but Regice is really in the best possible place in the meta it has ever been. I've been running a core of Leftovers Regice (by far its best set) with Scarf Healing Wish Mesprit and it really manages to put in work every game. Regice functions as a blanket check to much of the tier's special attackers including Mesprit, Pom Pom, Lilligant, Eggy-A, Swanna, Froslass, Rotom-F, and even Jellicent sometimes. Regice's coverage is also excellent right now- Focus Blast in particular is very relevant for an Ice-type to have because some of the pokemon who are considered Ice-checks, such as Sandslash-A and Aggron, straight up drop to it. The prevalence of bulky cores involving Mudsdale, Jellicent, and slower grass-types like Exeggutor-A gives Regice leeway to come in and fire off attacks more often than not in this meta. Regice also very strongly appreciates the decrease in viability of AV Hitmonchan, who was its most prominent counter in older metas. Regice still has problems with its vulnerability to hazards and status, but paired with appropriate team support it can more than hold its own in battle (this is really easy because of top pokemon like Mesprit and Jellicent have excellent synergy). What is keeping Regice from going any higher is that it is not all that splashable, since it does not provide a very specific essential team function and acts more as just a fat tank.

haven't been purposely saving replays for it but I did find one:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-837016555
 

tcr

sage of six tabs
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Regice is a cool Pokemon for sure, but I think that a straight tier rise is a little much speaking in terms of its viability.

Regice's biggest issues are that it is hugely hazards weak, on top of being incredibly slow. It also doesn't hit nearly as hard Aurorus does, and has far less utility, meaning it can't really overcome those inherent weaknesses just by its niche in the metagame. The biggest thing to me is hazards, Regice is one of those pokemon that is specifcally meant to switch in and wall a ton of threats, and a lot of high usage threats too (meaning it can't just function as a blanket glue). Other Pokemon like Clefairy or Wigglytuff kinda suffer from the same thing, that it just wants to do too much at once.

I've talked about this on discord, but assuming Rocks up its gonna be at 76% health the entire game pretty much, and that's not counting Spikes damage, Tspikes, etc. It's main reliance on Leftovers Recovery combined with its predictability mean that its a huge momentum sink; all it takes is one double against a decent player and Regice is very much useless against the stronger threats in the metagame, and I don't think that's that much to ask in terms of playing ability. I think a bump up to C+ or maybe even B- might be warranted but as it is a full tier above where it lies right now just shouldn't happen, especially when the premier threats of the metagame (IMO) are things like Gurdurr, Stoutland, Kangaskhan, Dodrio, etc which all decimate it. It has function in being able to check super relevant things like Pompom, Eggy, Froslass (do you really consider that checking lol it just switches in as Fros sets up Spikes), Jellicent, Lilli, Aurorus, and Jynx, but many Pokemon already do those things, and many do them in an Offensive manner that the tier is oriented towards rather than leaning toward a huge wall.

I just think that the amount of support and backpedal-style of play (intent on keeping hazards off, which is really hard to do with excellent rockers like Mesprit, Regirock, and Mudsdale, as well as prominent Spikers like Qwilfish and Froslass) make it have a use on some teams but is not enough to warrant a full rise. It struggles heavily as it has no recovery outside of Leftovers and it is hugely reliant on hazards being kept off the field. Additionally while it has a lot of coverage options, its reliant on Focus Blast hitting / predicting correctly for a lot of stuff (Aggron, Type Null, Probopass). Overall its definitely not C tier, but I think that it would fit just comfortably within the same ranks as Bronzor or Metang (C+ / B-).

- tcr out
 

UberSkitty

cuz I got banned from OU
is a Contributor to Smogon
Hello I am UberSkitty and today I am on the air with a certain someone to raise awareness...that Simipour should rise from UR to C/C-!
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So Mr. Simipour, why do you think you should rise?
What's up my surfer dudes? At the beach, it's Simipour here. My bro Simisear is getting lots of love, and my little sis Simisage is doing...other things. Well this fella here does the same things as his bro, serving as a radical Nasty Plot sweeper. Because of that, I have the same advantages with my wicked fast Speed and decent offensive stats and movepool. But that Speed is the real selling point when you compare it to my competition like Mr. Big Tentacle Monster himself, Omastar. This is cuz it gives me more immediate offensive presence and lets me serve revenge killer, which is def super cool in this offensive metagame. It also helps that I'm isn't weak to those darn Gurdurr Mach Punches. There's other fast setup dudes like Floatzel, but that guy deals with some serious 4MSS. On the other side, I'm lucky enough to have everything it needs to hit stuff ranging from Roselia to Jellicent. My big bro Simisear can also be kinda a jerk at times and give me even more competition, but I do think I has my perks between not dying to Stealth Rock and that psychedelic Water+Ice coverage. One last thing that helps me in this crazy metagame is that Togedemaru left, making me lose to one less of those darn Choice Scarf mon.

What have you been running while on the field?
Simipour @ Icium Z / Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Nasty Plot

This is the cool set I whipped up for myself, being able to use the Nasty Plot boosts and coverage to wallbreak stuff like Mudsdale and Regirock. I can also be a pretty flashy late game sweeper when the faster mons have lost their balance and fallen off the surf board. DId I mention I revenge kill? Anyway yeah, I can really put in work especially with my buds like Froslass and Roselia and their Spikes.

Got any videos of you in action?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-845280520
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-845395194
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-845464416
Hell yeah I do! These are just a couple of mine, and while there are a couple hax, I still think I did pretty great. Wait no remove that one there are kids watching!!!

Anything else you think the Audience should know?
Yeah man, screw that Minior dude. He's stopped me way too many times to count. I want him outta this beach.

Thank you Mr. Simipour, I think the answer is clear now. Come on people, save the Simipours!
 
Beartic Unranked ->D



Beartic @ Icium Z

Ability: Slush Rush

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Adamant Nature

- Aqua Jet

- Icicle Crash

- Swords Dance

- Superpower

Been meaning to nom this for a while and it is better now that Togedemaru is gone.

Yes, Sandslash-Alola is generally the superior Hail Sweeper due to its higher Speed, dual typing and access to Rapid Spin, but Beartic is a scary hail abuser in its own right and differentiates itself from Slash in 3 key ways, which enable it to function as an effective alternative or partner to Slash:

1. Access to priority in the form of Aqua Jet

AJ may seem situational due to its low BP and lack of STAB but it improves Beartic’s cleaning capabilities by enabling it to take out severely weakened threats without boosts and after an SD or two, it can deal respectable damage to faster mons and priority users that want to revenge it.

+2 252+ Atk Beartic Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simisear: 280-330 (96.2 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Beartic Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 144-170 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

2. A much higher Attack stat than AlolaSlash

This makes Beartic much better at breaking through walls than AlolaSlash. I find Icium Z to be the best item to run on Bear and it is seriously scary.

252+ Atk Beartic Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 348-411 (118.7 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Beartic Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 408-480 (109 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Beartic Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 525-618 (123.2 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Beartic Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 403-475 (110.7 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Beartic Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 229-271 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Beartic Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jellicent: 265-312 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Clearly, not much wants to switch in on +2 Slammer. With very little chip damage, even Quag dies to Slammer + Icicle Crash.

3. A lack of 4x weakness to Fighting

Fighting priority wrecks Slash:
192+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sandslash-Alola: 204-244 (69.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

136+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandslash-Alola: 232-276 (79.7 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Beartic can take Mach Punches much more comfortably and, as shown in calcs above, can OHKO Chan with unboosted Subzero Slammer and OHKO Gurdurr with +2 Slammer.

136+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beartic: 164-194 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beartic: 234-276 (70.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

192+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beartic: 144-170 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO

Beartic obviously shouldn’t be taking Drain Punches or Close Combats but its ability to overcome Mach Punch makes two prevalent mons that beat Slash fear Beartic.

Beartic is a solid Hail sweeper/breaker that functions a little differently from AlolaSlash and is therefore not entirely eclipsed by it. I have found that it is most effective as a partner to AlolaSlash as it breaks some things that give AlolaSlash trouble. Having both on the same team often means that both need not be kept healthy for late game; one can be used to punch holes early on and the other can come in later and act as a cleaner.

Replays:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-846582192

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-848954045
 
Last edited:
Beartic Unranked ->D



Beartic @ Icium Z

Ability: Slush Rush

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Adamant Nature

- Aqua Jet

- Icicle Crash

- Swords Dance

- Superpower

Been meaning to nom this for a while and it is better now that Togedemaru is gone.

Yes, Sandslash-Alola is generally the superior Hail Sweeper due to its higher Speed, dual typing and access to Rapid Spin, but Beartic is a scary hail abuser in its own right and differentiates itself from Slash in 3 key ways, which enable it to function as an effective alternative or partner to Slash:

1. Access to priority in the form of Aqua Jet

AJ may seem situational due to its low BP and lack of STAB but it improves Beartic’s cleaning capabilities by enabling it to take out severely weakened threats without boosts and after an SD or two, it can deal respectable damage to faster mons and priority users that want to revenge it.

+2 252+ Atk Beartic Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simisear: 280-330 (96.2 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Beartic Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 144-170 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

2. A much higher Attack stat than AlolaSlash

This makes Beartic much better at breaking through walls than AlolaSlash. I find Icium Z to be the best item to run on Bear and it is seriously scary.

252+ Atk Beartic Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 348-411 (118.7 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Beartic Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 408-480 (109 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Beartic Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 525-618 (123.2 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Beartic Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 403-475 (110.7 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Beartic Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 229-271 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Beartic Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jellicent: 265-312 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Clearly, not much wants to switch in on +2 Slammer. With very little chip damage, even Quag dies to Slammer + Icicle Crash.

3. A lack of 4x weakness to Fighting

Fighting priority wrecks Slash:
192+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sandslash-Alola: 204-244 (69.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sandslash-Alola: 256-304 (87.6 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Beartic can take Mach Punches much more comfortably and, as shown in calcs above, can OHKO Chan with unboosted Subzero Slammer and OHKO Gurdurr with +2 Slammer.

252+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beartic: 180-212 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beartic: 234-276 (70.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

192+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beartic: 144-170 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO

Beartic obviously shouldn’t be taking Drain Punches or Close Combats but its ability to overcome Mach Punch makes two prevalent mons that beat Slash fear Beartic.
My main problem with this nom is that Beartic may have some advantages over alolaslash (its legit only priority and breaking power), however, Beartic has too many flaws to actually be a decent hail sweeper and to be actually ranked.

Beartic may not have the x4 weakness to Fighting but Alolaslash's typing allows it not to be Rock weak, which I believe to be very significant when it comes to a mon that is supposed to sweeping. Because you do not account for rocks being up (which I think should be accounted for tbh even if you have removal), Beartic is easily revenge-killed and actually dies to LO chan's Mach Punch. Sure, AV chan and gurdurr don't ohko it with Mach, but it takes a considerable chunk, rocks included, and is unable to switch in again. It may kill Chan with Subzero but Gurdurr is only 2hko at +0 and just proceeds to Drain Punch. This really mitigates the argument about not having x4 Fighting weakness since rocks just reduce its longevity compared to alolaslash and they're both as vulnerable to Fighting as one another.

Secondly, Aqua Jet may be nice priority to chip faster mons like Ape, but this is in the ideal situation where Beartic is at a +2 after Swords Dance. Beartic isn't the most bulkiest mon, pure Ice type offering it pretty much nothing defensively and nothing is just gonna let it set up for free. Even passive mons like Clef and defensive Mes will have enough chip damage with their STAB to allow something like again, Gurdurr and Chan to kill it because it is in Mach Punch range and if Rocks are up, then its finished. Alolaslash may invite the aforementioned pokemon in as well but it boasts good resistances to typings like Dragon, Grass, Normal and Flying, giving it more opportunities to safely set up and overall being more reliable.

Speed is still a huge issue for this mon, and I acknowledge you realise alolaslash beats it in this department but just because Toge is gone, doesn't mean things get better for Beartic. Scarf Ape is gonna be on the rise again and being one of the scarfers that are able to outspeed +2 Beartic means it's pressured as much as it was before.

I think saying Beartic is a "solid" hail sweeper is a bit of an overstatement and you fail to see the flaws associated with this pokemon. Like if you're running full-hail, then go ahead and use Beartic. But on semi-hail cores like Aurorus + Alolaslash, 9.9 out of 10 times, alolaslash will always take that spot over Beartic. There's little reason to use Beartic outside of dedicated full hail and it's still outclassed by alolaslash in semi-hail.
 

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