Metagame USUM UU - General Discussion & Trends Thread!

Shiba mentioned Terrak to me which made me want to write this post. I think it's time to talk about how centralizing this mon right here is.


There are three indisputable hard counters to CB Terrak

-mega takes less


(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) - Literally the only way for Terrakion to knock out Slowbro is for it to land both Stone Edges and have one of those crit. The disgusting part is that Terrakion actually has decent wiggle room around these two walls with Toxic.

(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 118-141 (35.3 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock) - Then there is Gligar who is a great hard counter barring Stone Edge crit or +2 Z Stone Edge. - (+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 283-334 (84.7 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

Keep in mind SD Rockium Z bops Slowbro making Palossand the only hard counter to all Terrak sets.

There are three viable Pokemon that arent 2hko'd by either CB CC, EQ, or SE (That I could think of in my tired state).



(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 243-286 (50.5 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) - Protect keeps Alo from being dying.

(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 184-217 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) - Ik this mon is 2hko'd this is just to prove how wack Terrak is.

(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 187-222 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) - Hippowdon has to be max defense Bold to live a CC which means gl having your Hippowdon switch into Mega Man or Hydreigon - (252 SpA Manectric-Mega Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 178-210 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery , 252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 271-319 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)

(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 154-183 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) - Well defensive Cress is a good switch in if it has a lot of defense investment. Still seems a bit ridiculous that we have to pull all these otherwise bad Pokemon from RU to check one mon.

(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 154-182 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock) - This Pokemon checks given the right prediction but if you predict wrong cya!

I understand that Terrakion brings a little variety to the meta, gives some rarely seen Pokemon good usage and that's all good stuff. But in my opinion Terrakion buts way too much pressure on both stall and offense. Like the best way to deal with Terrakion on stall is to have Mega Slowbro with Alo to provide Wish support and protect stall out moves or Mega Altaria plus Alomomola. Leaving stall with the choice of 2 mega slots seems dumb for me. If you can think of other ideas cool but I bet they require a lot of prediction. With Bisharp in the tier Terrak is like the best way to counter sweep offense. And a while back Kink made a post with a bunch of defensive calcs for Terrakion. The mon isn't frail at all, it can take shots. Everything that forces Terrak out has a reliable switch in, yet Terrak has none. So eventually Terrak will win the switch out war. Tbh I don't know why this Pokemon isn't S tier in VR. I mean it fits on the same amount of archetypes Scizor and Lati do. It has close to the same amount of sets they do. It's just as splashable, useful, and threatening. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's suspect worthy, but I do think this mon is a bit too much. There isn't enough to keep Terrak inline and it forces all its switch ins to go mostly/fully defensive leaving them weak to special attacks they once ate. This is kinda a VR post but I feel like it could go in either thread. Curious what everyone else thinks.
As much as I agree with your post, there is quite the amount of counter-play offensively to check it. Priority users such as Scizor destroy it with bullet punch, Latias can revenge kill it, Primarina revenges it, Slowbro can slack off stall SE out and proceed to settup, etc. I feel like despite you saying you dont feel it warrants a suspect (which it doesn't imo), you're kinda hinting towards one. Even if we do have one, i doubt Terrakion would be banned. Sorry if I offended you, just posting my thoughts.
 

avarice

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252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 313-369 (96.6 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Specs prim may not be able to revenge a CB Terrak locked into stone edge, but like why would you use them as your next mon anyway? If you lost your resists than you probably lost game already. However, the increasingly common fat prim can deal with terrak.

Imo though terrak is pretty manageable mainly due to the fact that mons like chesnaught and nidoqueen are also needed/used to handle other threats like Zeraora and Bisharp.
 

justdrew

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+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Nidoqueen: 229-270 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Nidoqueen: 153-180 (39.9 - 46.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Three Terrakion sets can 2hko defensive Nidoqeen. I already showed the CB CC calc on Chesnaut but here is Fight Z calc
+2 252 Atk Terrakion All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 387-456 (102.1 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

As for fat Prima it isn’t a good counter.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina: 211-250 (57.9 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina: 510-600 (140.1 - 164.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I understand Terrakion can be rko’d and forced out but literally everything that forces it out has more counterplay and more checks than Terrakion does. The most threatening rko’er is Scizor. Keep in mind that if Terrakion is Choice Scarf it is harder to force out.

Also sickest dw about posting your opinion. That’s literally how this thread works lol. You post your opinion I read it and value it. All opinions should be respected and given equal attention and your opinion didn’t offend me :)
 
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Nidoqueen: 229-270 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Nidoqueen: 153-180 (39.9 - 46.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Three Terrakion sets can 2hko defensive Nidoqeen. I already showed the CB CC calc on Chesnaut but here is Fight Z calc
+2 252 Atk Terrakion All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 387-456 (102.1 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

As for fat Prima it isn’t a good counter.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina: 211-250 (57.9 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina: 510-600 (140.1 - 164.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I understand Terrakion can be rko’d and forced out but literally everything that forces it out has more counterplay and more checks than Terrakion does. The most threatening rko’er is Scizor. Keep in mind that if Terrakion is Choice Scarf it is harder to force out.

Also sickest dw about posting your opinion. That’s literally how this thread works lol. You post your opinion I read it and value it. All opinions should be respected and given equal attention and your opinion didn’t offend me :)
thanks fren. I would like to point out something else I didn't mention in my last post: Switching into a choice locked rack. Depending on what it locks itself into, Terrak actually has some defensive counterplay. If it's locked into SE, Mega Aggron, (keys?), Krook, Coba and Doublade can revenge it/switch into it. If it's locked into Close Combat, Gengar, Latias, Amoongus, Doublade, Gligar, etc. are able to switch into it. Just thought i'd point it out, but before you switch in, make sure it's choice locked.
 

avarice

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As for fat Prima it isn’t a good counter.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina: 211-250 (57.9 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina: 510-600 (140.1 - 164.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Yeah I wasn’t suggesting using fat prim as a switch in when terrak will click stone edge again or has the potential to SD. Should be noted that depending on how reliant you are on Nidoqueen handling terrak counter can be a nice option to blow them back.
 
Shiba mentioned Terrak to me which made me want to write this post. I think it's time to talk about how centralizing this mon right here is.


There are three indisputable hard counters to CB Terrak

-mega takes less


(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) - Literally the only way for Terrakion to knock out Slowbro is for it to land both Stone Edges and have one of those crit. The disgusting part is that Terrakion actually has decent wiggle room around these two walls with Toxic.

(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 118-141 (35.3 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock) - Then there is Gligar who is a great hard counter barring Stone Edge crit or +2 Z Stone Edge. - (+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 283-334 (84.7 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

Keep in mind SD Rockium Z bops Slowbro making Palossand the only hard counter to all Terrak sets.

There are three viable Pokemon that arent 2hko'd by either CB CC, EQ, or SE (That I could think of in my tired state).



(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 243-286 (50.5 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) - Protect keeps Alo from being dying.

(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 184-217 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) - Ik this mon is 2hko'd this is just to prove how wack Terrak is.

(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 187-222 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) - Hippowdon has to be max defense Bold to live a CC which means gl having your Hippowdon switch into Mega Man or Hydreigon - (252 SpA Manectric-Mega Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 178-210 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery , 252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 271-319 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)

(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 154-183 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) - Well defensive Cress is a good switch in if it has a lot of defense investment. Still seems a bit ridiculous that we have to pull all these otherwise bad Pokemon from RU to check one mon.

(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 154-182 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock) - This Pokemon checks given the right prediction but if you predict wrong cya!

I understand that Terrakion brings a little variety to the meta, gives some rarely seen Pokemon good usage and that's all good stuff. But in my opinion Terrakion buts way too much pressure on both stall and offense. Like the best way to deal with Terrakion on stall is to have Mega Slowbro with Alo to provide Wish support and protect stall out moves or Mega Altaria plus Alomomola. Leaving stall with the choice of 2 mega slots seems dumb for me. If you can think of other ideas cool but I bet they require a lot of prediction. With Bisharp in the tier Terrak is like the best way to counter sweep offense. And a while back Kink made a post with a bunch of defensive calcs for Terrakion. The mon isn't frail at all, it can take shots. Everything that forces Terrak out has a reliable switch in, yet Terrak has none. So eventually Terrak will win the switch out war. Tbh I don't know why this Pokemon isn't S tier in VR. I mean it fits on the same amount of archetypes Scizor and Lati do. It has close to the same amount of sets they do. It's just as splashable, useful, and threatening. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's suspect worthy, but I do think this mon is a bit too much. There isn't enough to keep Terrak inline and it forces all its switch ins to go mostly/fully defensive leaving them weak to special attacks they once ate. This is kinda a VR post but I feel like it could go in either thread. Curious what everyone else thinks.
While I AGREE that Terrakion is an absurdly centralizing and powerful mon, I DISAGREE that it has as many sets, or even fits on as many teams as Scizor and lati. Terrakion has Band, Scarf (Which isn't even used as much anymore) and like 2 variations of SD (One with SR and one with Rock Polish)
Scizor has at least 3 different spreads at any given time for all 4 of it's sets. And even if you don't want to count bulky roost SD and Defog as viable sets anymore then there's still the fact of the matter that Scizor has a bunch of different moves/items/ev spreads that it could be running on the offensively oriented SD set alone.
And dear god don't even get me started on Latias. Boltbeam, Specs/Scarf sets with a metric ton of interchangable moves, Dragonium, Electrium, and reflect type are just a handful of the sets I've seen with genuine usage.
And while Kink proved Terrakion isn't FRAIL, I wouldn't exactly make a max HP set and start throwing it at things it resists either. (Just cause it can tank super effective moves doesn't mean it has a great defensive typing and tons of defensive utility within a team)
Terrakion is an absurd threat, it smashes even some of the best walls in the tier like tissue paper. But it does so in a very cookie cutter fashion, especially when compared to the likes of the S-ranks. Is it strong? Yes. Is it broken? MAYBE. Is it an extremely versatile threat that can take up as many roles as Latias and Scizor and fit on to as many teams on them? I'm gonna say no on that one. Its FINE if you think Terrakion is broken. But people aren't going to believe you if you blow it's power completely out of proportion and exaggerate it.
 
I don't think it's untrue to say that Terrakion is the hardest Pokemon to wall in the tier, and that set diversity is not a requirement for an S-rank threat. With two sets Terrakion at worst 2HKOs the metagame without further requirements, and that's with very little coverage, simultaneously making Terrakion one of the most consistent Pokemon in the tier.
 
I mean, the fact that Palossand is even used right now is a testament to its power. That said, I’m not totally convinced that it’s overpowered right now. We just got a meta change, so I’d like to see some tournament usage and stats.
 
Terrak sure is the rising star rn but having it helps bringing diversity in the tier. We defo needed changes in the tier and it wont hurt having to pick new pokemon to check new threats (e.g chesnaught, palossand, nidoqueen and such). Althought thinking the same as Smallsmallrose, i dont think Terrak fits as many roles as Scizor or Latias does, dont think it deserves to be S already
 
Thanks to a recent conversation i've had on Showdown, i'd like to look at mon thats been seeing alot of usage in UU recently:

Slowbro's usage has shot up in the past month or so and in my opinion is a good thing. This thing usually runs similar sets (usually 252/252/4 bold) but is still a very good mon. Having access to solid recovery, good offensive moves, stellar stats all around the board, amazing ability in regenerator, and having a really nice typing in the current meta. However, despite these things, a couple things hold this mon back. In my opinion, the number one thing that holds this mon back is:

The sheer amount of dark types in the tier.
There are 9 Dark types in total present in UU, including the RUBL Zoroark, Mega Houndoom and Mega Absol. Other Darks include Hydreigon, Crawdaunt, Mega Sharpedo, Bisharp, Alolan Muk, and Krookodile. These 9 mons (Though the aftermentioned Muk doesn't quite do well vs Mega Bro as much as something like Hydreigon) are Slowbro's biggest answers. Beside existing, these huge presence of Hydreigon and Krookodile in the tier makes Slowbro less desirable, right? Wrong. Slowbro is arguably A+ rank worthy with how much utility and overall things it provides to the UU tier. Checking Terrakion, Cobalion, and completely walling Infernape 90% of the time (unless it has NP Grass Knot), Dishing out Scald burns to alot of things that want to come in for free, and overall acting as a really good wall is something UU as a tier really deserves. This and the amount of usage Slowbro has gotten recently attest to the overall amazing pokemon that is Slowbro. Although it is NU, I believe that Slowbro is worthy of being raised to UU. Many UU Players have used this mon and can tell you how amazing Slowbro is in the UU tier. IF Slowbro gets banned from NU, I would like ask Aim to do a Slowbro TTT series and boost Slowbro from its potential NUBL tiering (if it gets banned) to the UU tier. Reason I'm asking Aim is because he has a really good understanding of the tier and can get alot more people to use Slowbro due to his amazing Youtube channel. For those who disagree with my stance on this mon, I'd be happy to see what you think and you're all welcome to comment here (obviously) or on my Smogon profile. Good day and happy November in about 4 hours and 45 minutes frens :).

adieu,
Sick
 

Bewear @ Normalium Z
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Double-Edge / Return / Facade
- Drain Punch
- Earthquake / Façade / Taunt
Bewear @ Choice Band
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Facade
- Superpower / Drain Punch
- Earthquake


Hey there ! I would like to talk about Bewear because I think it's a pretty cool Pokemon to use in the current metagame. Even if it faces some competition with other Fighting Types (Terrakion, Cobalion, Infernape, Kommo-o, Lucario etc..), I think that it's niche is pretty useful atm.
Firstable, unlike other Fighting Types Wallbreaker, Bewear has a pretty good Bulk thanks to its ability Fluffy which allows it to check effectively threats like Scizor, Aerodactyl-Mega, Bisharp, Krookodile, Sharpedo-Mega etc.. Moreover, it's probably one of the scariest Pokemon to face when you're playing fat teams because Bewear can break through them with ease thanks to its powerful STAB (Double-Edge / Return or Façade and Superpower). In the current metagame, Dark Types are really common and it impacted the presence of Ghost types in the Underused. In other words, there is less Ghost Types atm in UU which open doors for Bewear and allows it to spam both of its STABs. I definively think that Bewear is an underrated threat and that's why I encourage people to try it so that they can make their own opinion of this fluffy bear !

Thanks for reading me and thanks for your time, peace out !

PS for Sickist : I definitively agree with you except for the "Slowbro TTT" with Aim which I think is a freaking bad idea. I don't want to bother us with a bad debate but I think that this kind of "Gonna ask someone which is ""famous"" to change a Pokemon's tier" is pure trash. It mess up metagames and it's a pain in the ass to see troll everywhere.
 

Bewear @ Normalium Z
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Double-Edge / Return / Facade
- Drain Punch
- Earthquake / Façade / Taunt
Bewear @ Choice Band
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Facade
- Superpower / Drain Punch
- Earthquake


Hey there ! I would like to talk about Bewear because I think it's a pretty cool Pokemon to use in the current metagame. Even if it faces some competition with other Fighting Types (Terrakion, Cobalion, Infernape, Kommo-o, Lucario etc..), I think that it's niche is pretty useful atm.
Firstable, unlike other Fighting Types Wallbreaker, Bewear has a pretty good Bulk thanks to its ability Fluffy which allows it to check effectively threats like Scizor, Aerodactyl-Mega, Bisharp, Krookodile, Sharpedo-Mega etc.. Moreover, it's probably one of the scariest Pokemon to face when you're playing fat teams because Bewear can break through them with ease thanks to its powerful STAB (Double-Edge / Return or Façade and Superpower). In the current metagame, Dark Types are really common and it impacted the presence of Ghost types in the Underused. In other words, there is less Ghost Types atm in UU which open doors for Bewear and allows it to spam both of its STABs. I definively think that Bewear is an underrated threat and that's why I encourage people to try it so that they can make their own opinion of this fluffy bear !

Thanks for reading me and thanks for your time, peace out !

PS for Sickist : I definitively agree with you except for the "Slowbro TTT" with Aim which I think is a freaking bad idea. I don't want to bother us with a bad debate but I think that this kind of "Gonna ask someone which is ""famous"" to change a Pokemon's tier" is pure trash. It mess up metagames and it's a pain in the ass to see troll everywhere.
I see where you're coming from and I dont want a debate either, but im not doing it just for that. I want slowbro to get some exposure, which i felt would be best done by Aim, due to the fact that he knows the tier and alot of people know him. I dont want him just to do a series because he's famous (though that does help with exposure, it's not my main goal in doing so), I asked for his assistance because he's a great UU player with alot of knowledge and the chance to shine the light onto Slowbro. Sorry if I wrote it to where you took it that way.

By the way, I do agree alot with what you're saying about Bewear, though that might cause Doublade's usage to shoot up, also being weak to special attackers is not really fun in the tier with monsters such as Latias, Primarina, etc.
 

Hilomilo

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Hi everyone! I haven't yet made a post in this thread, so I figured I'd finally test the waters and give some of my thoughts regarding the current metagame! I really like the way the tier is looking right now and honestly think that Bisharp has been a great addition since its reintroduction. There are a few trends I've picked up on that I think can largely be connected to its new presence in the tier, so I'd like to talk about those a little bit and maybe share some of my thoughts on some stuff that I think is a little underrated. Hope you enjoy reading! :)

To start, I'd like to talk about some of the upward trends in some types of Pokemon and archetypes I've been noticing recently.

One of my personal favorite things I've seen lately is increased exploration with Fighting-types. I think that in a way, Bisharp's drop emphasized how solid a lot of other offensive Dark-types are since they fit well on the same hazard-based builds that Bisharp can excel on, which is why we've seen rises in Pokemon like Crawdaunt and Mega Sharpedo lately. This is where Chesnaught comes into play, having responded extremely well to the increase usage of these Dark-types while also checking other portions of the metagame well thanks to its typing. It's a great spiker since it can threaten the popular Ground-/Water-type cores used on a ton of balances nicely while also checking a ton of prevalent offensive mons, and I've really enjoyed seeing it further solidify its place in the tier both by a large amount and in a short period of time in recent weeks. Lucario has also risen a lot in relevance and I think part of this too can be attributed to how well it takes advantage of some of the currently popular Dark-types. Its Nasty Plot set is already an amazing stallbreaker on its own, but its typing provides teams with a strong check to Bisharp and a Pokemon that punishes Hydreigon, Krookodile, and Crawdaunt really well if it can catch them locked into their Dark-type STABs. Its ability to OHKO all of the aforementioned Pokemon with a boosted Vacuum Wave also relieves fear of being easily revenge killed seeing as how Hydreigon and Krookodile are two of the more common Choice Scarf users running around lately, while its other advantages over Cobalion, including being able to break past the Slowbros, having more immediate power, and having more set versatility, have been showcased really nicely as well. Mienshao is another Fighting-type that's seen a huge resurgence lately, largely due to Hydreigon being the best it's ever been and the Assault Vest set being able to sponge hits from it consistently throughout a match. Between Knock Off, Fake Out, and U-turn, Mienshao is really annoying to deal with and provides a lot of offensive utility to teams it's fitted on, especially since with Regenerator it has a surprising amount of self sufficiency. All three of these Fighting-types have seen pretty large increases in relevance, and I think that in time they'll easily be regarded as standard Pokemon in the metagame that every builder should regard when constructing a team.

Another thing I've noticed is that Spikes offense is increasing in both usage and exploration. Bisharp abuses Spikes extremely well as is, but as I said before, I feel that its re-entry brought along the increased presence of a lot of other Pokemon that can take advantage of them well too, most notably Mega Sharpedo and Crawdaunt and Mamoswine to a lesser extent. The variation in Spikes setters used is something that I think is at an all-time high, which is really interesting and, imo, reflective of how much room we have for creativity in this metagame! Klefki still does what it always has done, acting as a nuisance to just about anything thanks to Prankster, its ability to spread status, and reliably setting Spikes because of the free switches it can get on stuff like Hydreigon, Latias, and Choice-locked Dark-types. I already covered what Chesnaught does and why it does it well, but I think that at this point it's certainly cemented itself as being tied with Klefki as the tier's best spiker, thanks to its several defensive benefits. Roserade is a super interesting option that I think a lot more people should get behind and try using. Its frailty and bad Speed discourage a lot of people from using it but in reality it's super powerful and mostly has all the coverage it needs to take on a lot of the metagame. Leaf Storm can OHKO Mega Slowbro even after a Calm Mind boost which is pretty bonkers, while Sludge Bomb and Tech-boosted Hidden Power Fire largely take care of the majority of popular Grass-type switch-ins in the metagame, like Moltres and all the bulky Steel-types running around. It doesn't have a lot of longevity but its offensive presence is really understated and allows it to force a lot of switches to get Spikes on the field. Absorbing TSpikes and being able to switch in on Scalds without caring about burn too much are also some pretty solid benefits it has over its main competitors. Froslass takes on the role of a suicide lead, which I know also discourages some people from giving it a try, but in the times I've seen it used it's really put in a lot of work. Taking on Hydreigon as a Ghost-type if you need it to is pretty impressive, while the utility it brings with its spinblocking capabilities, Taunt, and options like Destiny Bond and Will-o-Wisp is pretty cool. It's super customizable and can provide to your team beyond just setting Spikes, and I absolutely think that if the meta continues favoring Spikes offense it could see even more usage moving forward. Overall I just love that we're seeing so much variation in just one play style, and that this definitely speaks to the offensively-inclined element of the metagame's nature that's been growing some since Bisharp joined us.

This is getting long because I can never keep things short ;-; Anyways, with that out of the way I'd just like to quickly cover some of the downward trends I've seen a few Pokemon suffer from recently, since honestly I think we've seen a surprising amount of former staples fall off a fair amount in only the last few months.

I feel like all of the Pokemon I have listed here had pretty significant spots in the metagame that are now either not needed or are taken up by something else with better responses to trends we're seeing, making them fall off a fair amount recently. Alomomola still has a decent place in the metagame, but I've found it harder to justify when Slowbro and its Mega Evolution are further increasing their presence as defensive pivots and are oftentimes fulfilling the same role Alo will on stalls and balances. Blissey is also sort of starting to outshine it on some balances. It's still a great option, but it isn't nearly as large a staple or as mandatory on any build as it used to be, I'd say. Chandelure and Gengar are both just super awkward to use right now. It's hard utilizing either to their full potential when Krookodile is still super prevalent and can stop them dead in their tracks if it can just get into play, but the prevalence of Pursuit on other Pokemon like Aero, Bisharp, and Scizor also burdens them a ton. Chandelure is in a particularly bad spot just because it's harder for it to work around Hydreigon being so good right now, though I do think CM sets still have some merit thanks to Ghostium being able to break past stuff like Kommo-o decently. Heracross is really hard to justify over most other Fighting-types right now it seems, mostly in that it really doesn't the same reliability. It's still devastatingly powerful, but its Speed tier, typing, and struggle for moveslots are all just really awkward problems to work around and in a metagame with a lot of great Dark-types, it really doesn't offer the same defensive utility that options like Lucario and Cobalion do that partially allows them to shine. Alolan Muk used to be the premier answer to the majority of the tier's special threats, but it's in a really awkward spot right now as well. It's not very splashable, faces a lot of competition from trappers like Bisharp and Krookodile which provide more to teams they're fitted on, and is super easy to take advantage of with several top threats in the metagame, like Terrakion, Krookodile, and Cobalion among a few others. Swampert has taken a huge nosedive lately which hurts my heart to have to admit. It's still a decent blanket check to a lot of physically offensive threats but Hippowdon and Gligar are edging it out on a lot of builds as much more capable Electric-type checks and general physical sponges due to their more convenient typings and recovery. Its typing simply just became much less suited for the metagame than in past iterations, which ended up being a pretty significant nail in its relevance coffin.

That was a lot longer than I thought it'd be, but I hope you guys enjoyed reading as much as I enjoyed writing! I think that this may be my favorite iteration of gen 7 UU simply because of how much room for innovation there is and how balanced the viabilities of several different play styles are. Let's hope for an increasingly exciting metagame and a Keldeo drop! Thanks for reading :)
 
Hi everyone! I haven't yet made a post in this thread, so I figured I'd finally test the waters and give some of my thoughts regarding the current metagame! I really like the way the tier is looking right now and honestly think that Bisharp has been a great addition since its reintroduction. There are a few trends I've picked up on that I think can largely be connected to its new presence in the tier, so I'd like to talk about those a little bit and maybe share some of my thoughts on some stuff that I think is a little underrated. Hope you enjoy reading! :)

To start, I'd like to talk about some of the upward trends in some types of Pokemon and archetypes I've been noticing recently.

One of my personal favorite things I've seen lately is increased exploration with Fighting-types. I think that in a way, Bisharp's drop emphasized how solid a lot of other offensive Dark-types are since they fit well on the same hazard-based builds that Bisharp can excel on, which is why we've seen rises in Pokemon like Crawdaunt and Mega Sharpedo lately. This is where Chesnaught comes into play, having responded extremely well to the increase usage of these Dark-types while also checking other portions of the metagame well thanks to its typing. It's a great spiker since it can threaten the popular Ground-/Water-type cores used on a ton of balances nicely while also checking a ton of prevalent offensive mons, and I've really enjoyed seeing it further solidify its place in the tier both by a large amount and in a short period of time in recent weeks. Lucario has also risen a lot in relevance and I think part of this too can be attributed to how well it takes advantage of some of the currently popular Dark-types. Its Nasty Plot set is already an amazing stallbreaker on its own, but its typing provides teams with a strong check to Bisharp and a Pokemon that punishes Hydreigon, Krookodile, and Crawdaunt really well if it can catch them locked into their Dark-type STABs. Its ability to OHKO all of the aforementioned Pokemon with a boosted Vacuum Wave also relieves fear of being easily revenge killed seeing as how Hydreigon and Krookodile are two of the more common Choice Scarf users running around lately, while its other advantages over Cobalion, including being able to break past the Slowbros, having more immediate power, and having more set versatility, have been showcased really nicely as well. Mienshao is another Fighting-type that's seen a huge resurgence lately, largely due to Hydreigon being the best it's ever been and the Assault Vest set being able to sponge hits from it consistently throughout a match. Between Knock Off, Fake Out, and U-turn, Mienshao is really annoying to deal with and provides a lot of offensive utility to teams it's fitted on, especially since with Regenerator it has a surprising amount of self sufficiency. All three of these Fighting-types have seen pretty large increases in relevance, and I think that in time they'll easily be regarded as standard Pokemon in the metagame that every builder should regard when constructing a team.

Another thing I've noticed is that Spikes offense is increasing in both usage and exploration. Bisharp abuses Spikes extremely well as is, but as I said before, I feel that its re-entry brought along the increased presence of a lot of other Pokemon that can take advantage of them well too, most notably Mega Sharpedo and Crawdaunt and Mamoswine to a lesser extent. The variation in Spikes setters used is something that I think is at an all-time high, which is really interesting and, imo, reflective of how much room we have for creativity in this metagame! Klefki still does what it always has done, acting as a nuisance to just about anything thanks to Prankster, its ability to spread status, and reliably setting Spikes because of the free switches it can get on stuff like Hydreigon, Latias, and Choice-locked Dark-types. I already covered what Chesnaught does and why it does it well, but I think that at this point it's certainly cemented itself as being tied with Klefki as the tier's best spiker, thanks to its several defensive benefits. Roserade is a super interesting option that I think a lot more people should get behind and try using. Its frailty and bad Speed discourage a lot of people from using it but in reality it's super powerful and mostly has all the coverage it needs to take on a lot of the metagame. Leaf Storm can OHKO Mega Slowbro even after a Calm Mind boost which is pretty bonkers, while Sludge Bomb and Tech-boosted Hidden Power Fire largely take care of the majority of popular Grass-type switch-ins in the metagame, like Moltres and all the bulky Steel-types running around. It doesn't have a lot of longevity but its offensive presence is really understated and allows it to force a lot of switches to get Spikes on the field. Absorbing TSpikes and being able to switch in on Scalds without caring about burn too much are also some pretty solid benefits it has over its main competitors. Froslass takes on the role of a suicide lead, which I know also discourages some people from giving it a try, but in the times I've seen it used it's really put in a lot of work. Taking on Hydreigon as a Ghost-type if you need it to is pretty impressive, while the utility it brings with its spinblocking capabilities, Taunt, and options like Destiny Bond and Will-o-Wisp is pretty cool. It's super customizable and can provide to your team beyond just setting Spikes, and I absolutely think that if the meta continues favoring Spikes offense it could see even more usage moving forward. Overall I just love that we're seeing so much variation in just one play style, and that this definitely speaks to the offensively-inclined element of the metagame's nature that's been growing some since Bisharp joined us.

This is getting long because I can never keep things short ;-; Anyways, with that out of the way I'd just like to quickly cover some of the downward trends I've seen a few Pokemon suffer from recently, since honestly I think we've seen a surprising amount of former staples fall off a fair amount in only the last few months.

I feel like all of the Pokemon I have listed here had pretty significant spots in the metagame that are now either not needed or are taken up by something else with better responses to trends we're seeing, making them fall off a fair amount recently. Alomomola still has a decent place in the metagame, but I've found it harder to justify when Slowbro and its Mega Evolution are further increasing their presence as defensive pivots and are oftentimes fulfilling the same role Alo will on stalls and balances. Blissey is also sort of starting to outshine it on some balances. It's still a great option, but it isn't nearly as large a staple or as mandatory on any build as it used to be, I'd say. Chandelure and Gengar are both just super awkward to use right now. It's hard utilizing either to their full potential when Krookodile is still super prevalent and can stop them dead in their tracks if it can just get into play, but the prevalence of Pursuit on other Pokemon like Aero, Bisharp, and Scizor also burdens them a ton. Chandelure is in a particularly bad spot just because it's harder for it to work around Hydreigon being so good right now, though I do think CM sets still have some merit thanks to Ghostium being able to break past stuff like Kommo-o decently. Heracross is really hard to justify over most other Fighting-types right now it seems, mostly in that it really doesn't the same reliability. It's still devastatingly powerful, but its Speed tier, typing, and struggle for moveslots are all just really awkward problems to work around and in a metagame with a lot of great Dark-types, it really doesn't offer the same defensive utility that options like Lucario and Cobalion do that partially allows them to shine. Alolan Muk used to be the premier answer to the majority of the tier's special threats, but it's in a really awkward spot right now as well. It's not very splashable, faces a lot of competition from trappers like Bisharp and Krookodile which provide more to teams they're fitted on, and is super easy to take advantage of with several top threats in the metagame, like Terrakion, Krookodile, and Cobalion among a few others. Swampert has taken a huge nosedive lately which hurts my heart to have to admit. It's still a decent blanket check to a lot of physically offensive threats but Hippowdon and Gligar are edging it out on a lot of builds as much more capable Electric-type checks and general physical sponges due to their more convenient typings and recovery. Its typing simply just became much less suited for the metagame than in past iterations, which ended up being a pretty significant nail in its relevance coffin.

That was a lot longer than I thought it'd be, but I hope you guys enjoyed reading as much as I enjoyed writing! I think that this may be my favorite iteration of gen 7 UU simply because of how much room for innovation there is and how balanced the viabilities of several different play styles are. Let's hope for an increasingly exciting metagame and a Keldeo drop! Thanks for reading :)
I've more noticed the Fighting type resurgance, but not as much the second part. That's quite interesting, it'll be more interesting when keldeo drops.
 

Hydreigon @ Groundium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn / Roost / Flash Cannon / Defog / Taunt
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor / Roost / Defog / Taunt
- Earth Power

Hey, I just wanna share this set which is super cool in my opinion. Groundium Z Hydreigon is a threat that can lure a lot of Pokemon like Empoleon and Klefki which helps its teammates a lot. U-Turn is pretty useful if you want to bait the Scarf / Specs Hydreigon while Roost + Defog/Taunt can be good in order to check some threats like Krookodile, Volcanion, Nidoqueen or Crawdaunt.

Calcs :

• 252 SpA Hydreigon Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 294-346 (92.7 - 109.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 252 SpA Hydreigon Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Empoleon: 282-332 (75.8 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 252 SpA Hydreigon Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 316-374 (87 - 103%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
• 252 SpA Hydreigon Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 350-412 (98.8 - 116.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Hydreigon Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Aggron-Mega: 231-273 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Hydreigon Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 223-263 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Hydreigon Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Houndoom-Mega: 404-476 (138.8 - 163.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego: 304-360 (84.6 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Just try it :psyglad:
 

Adaam

إسمي جف
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis the 8th Grand Slam Winner
With UU Majors ending I'd like to share my thoughts on some underrated threats in the metagame that I used during the tournament:


1542856618193.png

Gengar @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast

Ghost-types have fallen off severely with Pursuit and Krookodile being on every other team. However, Gengar's awesome speed tier and offensive coverage lets it circumvent Pursuit by forcing a switch and getting up a Substitute on a fair portion of the metagame since the immediate response to a Gengar with a free turn is "oh god switch into something remotely bulky." It also walls Amoonguss which I fucking hate but that's besides the point. Once you get a Sub up you usually nab a free kill unless they're running a Muk or Blissey, or better yet, they try sacking something low so you can Sub up, nab two kills, and dodge Pursuit. You can also run Ghost-Z to have a generic nuke and OHKO stuff like Scizor, but I enjoy smashing Empoleon and using the one time never-miss Focus Blast for those Dreis and Krooks.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-410282
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-823732321



1542856637244.png


Infernape @ Firium Z
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot
- Vacuum Wave

NP Nape with a slight twist. I noticed the majority of Fight-Z targets get toasted by a +2 Inferno Overdrive anyway (like Emp, Hippo, Scizor, Rotom-H), and Firium Z nabs KOs on Gligar and Toge. Getting Grass Knot is the big bonus as you are a lot less reliant on using the Z-move properly to blow back bulky Water-types.

Replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-405930


1542856735960.png


Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Atk / 88 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Gyro Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak

Doublade is pretty lit right now with an all-time high of Terrakion spam. I find it to be a super splashable gluemon for HO builds that checks a plethora of nuisances like CM Lati, Cobalion, Scizor somewhat, M-Aero, M-Alt, and M-Aggron. I prefer Gyro Ball to dent Lati hard, which allows me to drop Shadow Claw for Sacred Sword. Imo the Fighting coverage is too good to pass up, especially with Bisharp back in UU. Being able to trade with M-Sharpedo when healthy is pretty big considering how terrifying it is to face on HO. I don't really have replays during majors showing it off, although I used it a fair amount.

1542856949447.png

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Transform

I swear to god this is unironically good and not just a meme. Ditto finds a solid niche imo on semi-stall builds by acting as the best revenge killer the tier has to offer. Full stall is so hard to pull off with so many setup sweepers and breakers to account for, so the best way I found to punish these mons is to turn the tables on them with Ditto. The infinite PP is also awesome against opposing fat, and you dominate the hazard war by switching into their setters and removers. I honestly don't know what the IVs do, I think it gives me HP Ice? Lol I just copied the spread in that OU RMT. Here's some replays showing how good Ditto is:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-403944
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-407650
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-398778


Some closing thoughts about the general metagame: I'm slighlty shocked at how little Mamos I've seen. I guess the Rotom-H spam cut into its viability, and Slowbro is used a fair amount now (at least in tours). Nonetheless, with hazards up and access to Knock Off and Stone Edge I feel like it still exerts massive pressure on a bunch of builds. I also noticed a slight decrease in M-Aero usage, possibly due to Terrakion usage, and stacking Rock-types is really meh. I see potential for M-Pidgeot to make a resurgence, especially since Rotom-H is the popular Electric-type and is outsped by it. Lastly, f those Hippo/Emp/Amoonguss cores u_u I'd rather face AloBliss. Hope this was a good read.
 

Attachments

Last edited:
With UU Majors ending I'd like to share my thoughts on some underrated threats in the metagame that I used during the tournament:


View attachment 146956
Gengar @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast

Ghost-types have fallen off severely with Pursuit and Krookodile being on every other team. However, Gengar's awesome speed tier and offensive coverage lets it circumvent Pursuit by forcing a switch and getting up a Substitute on a fair portion of the metagame since the immediate response to a Gengar with a free turn is "oh god switch into something remotely bulky." It also walls Amoonguss which I fucking hate but that's besides the point. Once you get a Sub up you usually nab a free kill unless they're running a Muk or Blissey, or better yet, they try sacking something low so you can Sub up, nab two kills, and dodge Pursuit. You can also run Ghost-Z to have a generic nuke and OHKO stuff like Scizor, but I enjoy smashing Empoleon and using the one time never-miss Focus Blast for those Dreis and Krooks.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-410282
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-823732321



View attachment 146957

Infernape @ Firium Z
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot
- Vacuum Wave

NP Nape with a slight twist. I noticed the majority of Fight-Z targets get toasted by a +2 Inferno Overdrive anyway (like Emp, Hippo, Scizor, Rotom-H), and Firium Z nabs KOs on Gligar and Toge. Getting Grass Knot is the big bonus as you are a lot less reliant on using the Z-move properly to blow back bulky Water-types.

Replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-405930


View attachment 146958

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Atk / 88 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Gyro Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak

Doublade is pretty lit right now with an all-time high of Terrakion spam. I find it to be a super splashable gluemon for HO builds that checks a plethora of nuisances like CM Lati, Cobalion, Scizor somewhat, M-Aero, M-Alt, and M-Aggron. I prefer Gyro Ball to dent Lati hard, which allows me to drop Shadow Claw for Sacred Sword. Imo the Fighting coverage is too good to pass up, especially with Bisharp back in UU. Being able to trade with M-Sharpedo when healthy is pretty big considering how terrifying it is to face on HO. I don't really have replays during majors showing it off, although I used it a fair amount.

View attachment 146959
Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Transform

I swear to god this is unironically good and not just a meme. Ditto finds a solid niche imo on semi-stall builds by acting as the best revenge killer the tier has to offer. Full stall is so hard to pull off with so many setup sweepers and breakers to account for, so the best way I found to punish these mons is to turn the tables on them with Ditto. The infinite PP is also awesome against opposing fat, and you dominate the hazard war by switching into their setters and removers. I honestly don't know what the IVs do, I think it gives me HP Ice? Lol I just copied the spread in that OU RMT. Here's some replays showing how good Ditto is:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-403944
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-407650
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-398778


Some closing thoughts about the general metagame: I'm slighlty shocked at how little Mamos I've seen. I guess the Rotom-H spam cut into its viability, and Slowbro is used a fair amount now (at least in tours). Nonetheless, with hazards up and access to Knock Off and Stone Edge I feel like it still exerts massive pressure on a bunch of builds. I also noticed a slight decrease in M-Aero usage, possibly due to Terrakion usage, and stacking Rock-types is really meh. I see potential for M-Pidgeot to make a resurgence, especially since Rotom-H is the popular Electric-type and is outsped by it. Lastly, f those Hippo/Emp/Amoonguss cores u_u I'd rather face AloBliss. Hope this was a good read.
0 Speed Ditto is literally just to win a PP war against other Ditto should it come down to Ditto vs Ditto struggle. A very rare occasion so its more just a hyper-optimization thing.
 
Thanks to Adaam's post I can comment on my own while avoiding double post >o>


Palossand (M) @ Colbur Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Shore Up
- Toxic
- Earth Power
Palossand is a super cool Pokemon in the current Metagame because it's probably one of the best (if not the best) Pokemon to deal with Terrakion which is a super threatening Walbreaker atm. Thanks to its typing, Palossand can denied Terrakion with ease while being able to act as a really good Stealth Rocks setter. Moreover, thanks to Water Compaction, Palossand is a much more consistent check than Hippowdon to Aerodactyl-Mega with Aqua Tail. Even if its Ghost Type isn't the best to act as a good Spin Blocker (because most of UU's Rapid Spinner can deal with it : Blatoise-Mega, Tentacruel, Starmie, Tsareena etc..), it allows it to deal with most of the Fighting Types in the current tier (Physical Ape, Terrakion, Cobalion, Bewear, Toxicroak etc..). I feel like Palossand is more and more a useful pick in Balanced because they often struggle to handle Terrakion.


Salazzle @ Poisonium Z
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Protect
- Sludge Wave
- Fire Blast
I fell in love with Nasty Plot + Protect Salazzle. For those who know me a little bit, I'm a big fan of Set Up Sweeper with Protect because they can punish really hard some double of the opponent. Nasty Plot + Protect Salazzle is in my opinion one of the best abuser of this kind of "concept" because it can Protect on a lot of Choice Threats like Krookodile, Infernape, Hydreigon, Latias, Terrakion etc.. Which allows it to scout the opponent's attack / switch. Furthermore, Salazzle didn't need its last slot a lot since Poison/Fire hits already a freaking huge majority of the tier.



As you can see there isn't a lot of Pokemon in Underused which resist both Fire and Poison Types. Laggron and Chandelure are not that common at the moment and Aerodacty-Mega declines a little bit in usage. Nihilego isn't a really common Pokemon while Tentacruel and Terrakion lack of recovery which mean they're pretty easy to chip. In other word, there isn't a lot of Pokemon which justify a third offensive move on Salazzle. Thanks to its Speedtier, Salazzle is also able to Revenge Kill a ton of threats such as non-Choice Scarf Latias/Infernape, Nasty Plot Lucario or Cobalion which is super valuable.

A cool replay which shows Palossand and Salazzle in action : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-823581319


Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Mega Launcher
EVs: 104 HP / 252 SpA / 152 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Water Pulse / Scald / Hydro Pump
- Aura Sphere
- Dark Pulse
Like Palossand, Blastoise-Mega is a Pokemon which finds itself really useful on Balanced. Thanks to its Movepool and Ability it can pressure teams that lack of Blissey, Sylveon, Florges, Primarina or Amoonguss while bringing a ton of utility to your team (thanks to Rapid Spin and the fact that it can check Scizor, Bisharp, Krookodile etc..). Even if it struggles vs some staple like Amoonguss, it's a really fun pick for team which would like a more offensive Tentacruel which isn't weak to Pursuit like Starmie. Its Speedtier is also pretty decent which allows it to outspeed several threats without abandoning Bulk. It's a Bulky Powerhouse that doesn't have that much Switch in in the current metagame and it's really good when it's paired with Cleric and Wish Support.
 
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Darksafadao

best of the second options
Hey, I would like to share some of my thoughts on the meta right now.



Nidoking is probably the mon I've been liking the most to test lately. I'm very happy Nidoqueen is getting popularity as I also have been enjoying to use it for some time, but today I wanna address what Nidoking has going for it lately:
  • The fighting spam grants it some potential to find great opportunities to fire off attacks (which are rather hard to switch into btw). Of course it's not a reliable wall that is gonna stop them, but it already is a good trait at this point at the meta, including successfully abusing more passive ones like Chesnaught. (It also resists Terrakion STABs kinda)
  • Balance has been growing very much in popularity later and those are the kind of match-ups Nidoking really shines at. With balance's limited speed control and how common a bulky Fairy is at them, Nidoking can find free turns and basically get a kill. The fairy part brings me to the next point:
  • It's a great fairy check, which is great at this meta. It outspeeds every unboosted relevant Fairy-type in the meta and usually kills them. This makes it a great partner for mons that hate them, such as Hydra, as they won't feel comfortable coming in and risking a U-turn or a hard switch to Nidok. This point also gets stronger with the popularity of Diancie which it really takes advantage of, Klefki, and the bulky Fairy Wish passers.
  • T-spikes and SR access and being able to threaten most mons with hazard control is cool.
  • I'm gonna use this part to sum up the latest changes in the meta that I feel like benefited Nidoking: Being a reliable Substitute user makes it useful versus Bisharp, Nidoking doesn't really care about Zeraora (or at least makes it think 3 times about which move it's gonna fire off), Manectric now runs HP Grass and the teams that run Manectric usually won't switchin well into Nidoking at all.


Jellicent is a pretty cool mon. I love the concept of how it's a wall that can shut down other walls and take on Scizor well. I'd say the main reason for the rise of it is the Fighting spam, as it takes on Coba, Luc, and Infernape rather well (which is making the whole tier adapt and seek new mons to take on that trend, such as Mantine and the more well explored Slowbro). Probably one of my favorite mon to use lately too, just really fun how it can wall and not be passive as other walls. The little crown is pretty cute too.



I also wanna talk a bit about Chesnaught. I feel like after Bisharp and Zeraora stopped being spammed after they dropped and the Crawdaunt usage going down, it just doesn't really feel good to me as it did at first. Don't get me wrong, it's a pretty cool mon and has a nice niche, but I think those new measures for the Fighting spam hurt it along with giving free switchins to a lot of high ranked Pokémon that are powerful breakers such as Latias, M-Altaria, Togekiss and to many defoggers such as Moltres, Gligar, and M-Altaria (again), which hurts it as a spiker. It also doesn't really please me how it doesn't really take on Scizor well (having to constant spam Synthesis if Rocky, not really doing any progress against it if Lefties). Also it really wants to run Taunt, Wood Hammer, Drain Punch, Roar, and more but in the end it always has to forgo a move that really goes missing. Again, not a bad mon at all, I just feel it dropped off a bit.



This last one is kind of a prediction but I think it may happen. With the tier adapting slowly, the Fighting spam will eventually fade out, and this will make Bisharp get even better. If this really happens it'll be interesting to see how the tier adapts back and if Bisharp can even get too goo. Maybe the solely reason of Bisharp being a great threat will never really allow the Fighting spam to stop, but it's just speculation.

I also just wanna briefly mention that Terrak is starting to feel a bit unhealthy. All the other Fighting types sound okay to me but Terrakion promoted Palossand to have a niche and the band and Z-moves sets feel rather dumb sometimes. It's interesting to see how the tier is adapting to it though, such as Gligar being particularly interesting.
 
Why does no one here love heliolisk? Nukes everything that comes into it. Ground and fire types die to surf, water and flying to thunderbolt, and hyper voice hits everything. It's special and has dry skin and thus seperates itself form raora, but its movepool gives it an edge over Mmane.

Edit: surf>grass knot>hidden power
Edit: these replays are also on viab rankings
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-824318208
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-824334582
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-825292189
 

Nightingales

// FLY HIGH, STRIKE HARD
It’s slower and weaker, and dry skin isn’t that much of a niche as to make it better than the other electrics in the tier.

Little more edit: Fighting types absolutely body Heliolisk in the meta rn, they’re everywhere and a good few are scarfed. Additionally, Latias exists, which can straight up set up on it.

MMane is nowhere near as vulnerable to fighting types due to a) intimidate and b) extra power making them much more hesitant to come in on it. Zeraora can blast through Lati, the fighting types, and just about anything it chooses due to having not just a wider movepool, but boosting moves on both sides of the spectrum and great mixed stats as well as also being much faster than much of the meta.

Heliolisk sucks ass in comparison.
 
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Dark Pulse, Hyper voice and surf isn't good?
I know that MMane and Zeraora are better options, but the Niche in hitting just about everything (yes fck soundproof kommo o) along with the fact that voice is STAB; it sure isn't as good, but it deserves something on the VR and some regonization.
 
Dark Pulse, Hyper voice and surf isn't good?
I know that MMane and Zeraora are better options, but the Niche in hitting just about everything (yes fck soundproof kommo o) along with the fact that voice is STAB; it sure isn't as good, but it deserves something on the VR and some regonization.
Look dude, I don’t know how many times we have to spell it out for you: we are not ranking Heliolisk. I get your enthusiasm but Heliolisk is even frailer than Zeraora and is weaker. Its base speed is pitiful too as you’re not even outspeeding the base 110s as a fast hit and run Electric-type. Everything you’ve listed that can be hit by Surf, Zeraora can hit just as hard with Grass Knot. Zeraora also can stray from its usual mixed set and use a variety of set-up moves and techs.

The issue about your replays is that you are up against low ladder players which either A) Are incompetent B) Have very gimmicky/unviable sets or mons or C) Are a mixture of both. If you want to prove a Pokémon’s worth you need replays from high up in the ladder where players actually know what they’re doing. Finally, you want to know what’s a big determining factor in getting a Pokémon ranked? Consistent Success. Can other players do well with the nominated Pokémon as well and not just the initial player that nominated it? You might have success with Heliolisk but I fail to believe that other people could have more success with a Heliolisk than Zeraora. Diancie and Palossand are great examples of this sort of success and they’ve only been slightly moving up in viability since their original nomination. Diancie has been seen in a couple Snake matches and it compresses both a Flying resist and Dragon immunity really well for teams that seek a glue. Despite Hippowdon usually being the better pick, having a Pokémon on your team that completely invalidates Terrakion and other Fighting-types is a valuable niche that Palossand possesses. When I see Heliolisk, I just see an outclassed wannabe Zeraora or Mega Manectric.

I hate having to be rude, but please stop preaching that Heliolisk is of any worth here. We’ve kept telling you that it’s unviable both here and in Discord and honestly it’s just annoying and ridiculous that you’re not listening to multiple other competent players that have told you that Heliolisk is unviable.
 
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