Sorry got a question, set seems pretty cool, but does calc include pre-mega rocks damage?
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Metagame USUM UU - General Discussion & Trends Thread!
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k thanks gonna steal that set and ladder
Alright I've been noticing this about how people seem to express their feelings to these specific megas so I might as well take the time to showcase them with a little glitz and glamor!
Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to UU's Most Hated!
(Disclaimer: I do not intend for this to be an actual series)
Episode 1: The Mosted Hated Megas!
Mega Evolutions have been considered to be a core mechanic to competitive battling since its opening in XY and it has stayed that way in USUM as it has breathed life into many Pokémon that would otherwise never see the light of day again. This tier is filled with megas that didn't quite make the cut to be worthy of the glorious OverUsed. However, there obviously cannot be an equal balance among all the viable megas in the tier and there is an apparent difference between the top ones like Mega Aerodactyl, Slowbro, and Altaria and the far more niche or role-specific ones. However the megas that are below the top ones are often given a sort of inferiority by the community itself and they seem to exhibit a specific hatred to these megas. So how about we delve into the abyss of viability and discover the true potential that lies beneath these illustrious mega evolutions!
Mega #1: Mega Beedrill
My Thoughts: I'm not going to lie folks, this is probably the most hated mega of them all in the UnderUsed metagame even more hated than poor Mega Sceptile. I think a lot of the hate that's directed at Mega Beedrill is much more due to a lack of experience with it. Mega Beedrill is obviously never going to manually switch into anything on its own unless it is absolutely necessary that you must sack it to win the game. Mega Beedrill will often be paired with VoltTurn to give it an easier time to switch-in. Whenever I run into a Mega Beedrill on the ladder, the opponent will often lead with it and it has become quite predictable at this point. Outside of the first turn however, it can be pretty agonizing to find a switch-in to this Pokémon because even when it pivots out with U-Turn, Adaptability can be a bitch to resists as well. Mega Beedrill will usually threaten switches because of this and that allows it to utilize moves such as Toxic Spikes and Pursuit. Overall, this Pokémon is a glass cannon and it will always be a glass cannon and nothing more but its role as one is fairly unique compared to others.
Mega #2: Mega Pidgeot
My Thoughts: Unfortunately Mega Pidgeot has dramatically fell off in viability but that doesn't mean it's completely worthless compared to its competition. For starters, sitting at a speed tier above Latias is automatically a positive. Secondly, No Guard is obviously a borked ability to give you those 100% accurate Hurricanes which means its Flying STAB is reliable. Overall having a far more consistent Hurricane just makes you realize how easy it is to spam it, and Heat Wave means its got the same annoying Fire/Flying coverage that makes Moltres such a bitch to fight against if you aren't trying to aggressively keep your rocks up. I also still am a fan of the Work Up Stallbreaker set due to it often being a neat surprise if the opponent expects it to be the standard attacker+kinda pivot. I think the rarity of Mega Pidgeot only plays into its favor as it can sometimes surprisingly chip its opposing checks a lot easier than Moltres because of it. I'm still a little on the fence if it should actually drop in viability since it doesn't seem to have enough going for it but it fits the criteria of overhated so I gotta talk about it.
Mega #3: Mega Sceptile
My Thoughts: Mega Altaria having a resurgence kinda sucks but any team that doesn't have it is going to have an annoying time against Mega Sceptile. I swear I keep forgetting that this Pokémon has Lightning Rod and that really fucked me over one match when I thought I could safely pivot out with Mega Manectric. But with Mega Sceptile's speed tier and its moves and coverage, its another Pokémon that's hard as fuck to find a safe switch-in to. It's a rather match-up dependent Pokémon and it definitely isn't a sweeper (I tried to use SD Mega Scept and its unfortunately pretty mediocre) but people need to cut it some slack because when it delivers, it DELIVERS.
Mega #4: Mega Absol
My Thoughts: Let's be real about this, when was the last time you have seen a serious Mega Absol? Exactly, you probably haven't but that doesn't mean that Mega Absol is completely terrible. It's not gameshaking in any sort of way but Mega Absol does have some miniscule niches that makes it somewhat unique. For starters, its Knock Off has a strong chance to OHKO Z-Move Latias after rocks damage unlike Scarf Krook who will only 2HKO it unless it is running Crunch which is usually inferior to Stone Edge. Mega Absol also isn't locked into a move by a choice item and has an ok pre-mega ability, Justified, to handle Dark spam. Not being locked into a Dark-type move is far more beneficial in this metagame due to its access to Superpower to handle the Fighting-types and Hydra. Finally, Sucker Punch can be decently effective at being some priority to surprise Mega Aerodactyl and Zeraora and picking them off once they've been weakened. Despite its paper thin defenses, sporting a 150 base attack along with what's mentioned above makes Mega Absol a passable Pokémon in UU despite what the contrary may think of it.
Mega #5: Mega Glalie
My Thoughts: Mega Glaile is probably the most interesting mega out of all of these. It was advocated by many to be ranked months ago due to it not already being ranked and once it did, it pretty much became ignored for a while until some complaints started to pop up that denounced and questioned the legitimacy of Mega Glaile. Mega Glaile is a much more interesting case because this Pokémon would probably be far better if it didn't take up a mega slot. Mega Glaile has honestly flown under the radar and people really underestimate how strong this Pokémon is with Refrigerate. In a way, it combines Mamoswine's offensive prowess and Froslass's utility while also suiciding after doing its job quite well. This is just one of those megas that people seriously are surprised to see when it is played and let me tell you, you do NOT want to be hit by a Refrigerate boosted Explosion. Mega Glalie overall requires some more experimentation because this Pokémon can seriously shred the opposing team early in the game while setting up hazards if played correctly.
That's all folks! Glad to see you all tune into UU's Most Hated! These are often some of the most overlooked Mega evolutions of the tier so shedding some light onto these Pokémon could possibly help and even encourage newer players to take a look at them and play around with these Megas! Now that's the end of my show! Farewell folks!
Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to UU's Most Hated!
(Disclaimer: I do not intend for this to be an actual series)
Episode 1: The Mosted Hated Megas!
Mega Evolutions have been considered to be a core mechanic to competitive battling since its opening in XY and it has stayed that way in USUM as it has breathed life into many Pokémon that would otherwise never see the light of day again. This tier is filled with megas that didn't quite make the cut to be worthy of the glorious OverUsed. However, there obviously cannot be an equal balance among all the viable megas in the tier and there is an apparent difference between the top ones like Mega Aerodactyl, Slowbro, and Altaria and the far more niche or role-specific ones. However the megas that are below the top ones are often given a sort of inferiority by the community itself and they seem to exhibit a specific hatred to these megas. So how about we delve into the abyss of viability and discover the true potential that lies beneath these illustrious mega evolutions!
Mega #1: Mega Beedrill
Mega Beedrill is weak to Stealth Rocks and it is hard to justify a slot for this Pokémon. It is also rather inferior compared to Scizor and dies to whatever it might have to switch into.
Mega #2: Mega Pidgeot
Mega Pidgeot has a mediocre damage output and is inferior compared to the consistency of Moltres and Togekiss. Mega Pidgeot also hates the upward usage of Rotom-H
Mega #3: Mega Sceptile
Mega Sceptile despises all of the Fairy-types roaming around especially Togekiss. It is often outclassed as an offensive Grass-type and as a Dragon-type.
Mega #4: Mega Absol
Mega Absol is simply an atrocious Pokémon because it is outclassed by other offensive Dark-types. It also fails to be a Pursuit trapper compared to others that outclass it such as Mega Aerodactyl and Scarfed Krookodile.
Mega #5: Mega Glalie
This Pokémon is currently being outshined by its sister Froslass. Mega Glaile is rather awkward to fit on teams and really doesn't have any sort of niche. It also hates the brutal metagame that's full of Fighting-types.
That's all folks! Glad to see you all tune into UU's Most Hated! These are often some of the most overlooked Mega evolutions of the tier so shedding some light onto these Pokémon could possibly help and even encourage newer players to take a look at them and play around with these Megas! Now that's the end of my show! Farewell folks!
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This should be on the Flying PressAlright I've been noticing this about how people seem to express their feelings to these specific megas so I might as well take the time to showcase them with a little glitz and glamor!
Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to UU's Most Hated!
(Disclaimer: I do not intend for this to be an actual series)
Episode 1: The Mosted Hated Megas!
Mega Evolutions have been considered to be a core mechanic to competitive battling since its opening in XY and it has stayed that way in USUM as it has breathed life into many Pokémon that would otherwise never see the light of day again. This tier is filled with megas that didn't quite make the cut to be worthy of the glorious OverUsed. However, there obviously cannot be an equal balance among all the viable megas in the tier and there is an apparent difference between the top ones like Mega Aerodactyl, Slowbro, and Altaria and the far more niche or role-specific ones. However the megas that are below the top ones are often given a sort of inferiority by the community itself and they seem to exhibit a specific hatred to these megas. So how about we delve into the abyss of viability and discover the true potential that lies beneath these illustrious mega evolutions!
Mega #1: Mega Beedrill
My Thoughts: I'm not going to lie folks, this is probably the most hated mega of them all in the UnderUsed metagame even more hated than poor Mega Sceptile. I think a lot of the hate that's directed at Mega Beedrill is much more due to a lack of experience with it. Mega Beedrill is obviously never going to manually switch into anything on its own unless it is absolutely necessary that you must sack it to win the game. Mega Beedrill will often be paired with VoltTurn to give it an easier time to switch-in. Whenever I run into a Mega Beedrill on the ladder, the opponent will often lead with it and it has become quite predictable at this point. Outside of the first turn however, it can be pretty agonizing to find a switch-in to this Pokémon because even when it pivots out with U-Turn, Adaptability can be a bitch to resists as well. Mega Beedrill will usually threaten switches because of this and that allows it to utilize moves such as Toxic Spikes and Pursuit. Overall, this Pokémon is a glass cannon and it will always be a glass cannon and nothing more but its role as one is fairly unique compared to others.Mega Beedrill is weak to Stealth Rocks and it is hard to justify a slot for this Pokémon. It is also rather inferior compared to Scizor and dies to whatever it might have to switch into.
Mega #2: Mega Pidgeot
My Thoughts: Unfortunately Mega Pidgeot has dramatically fell off in viability but that doesn't mean it's completely worthless compared to its competition. For starters, sitting at a speed tier above Latias is automatically a positive. Secondly, No Guard is obviously a borked ability to give you those 100% accurate Hurricanes which means its Flying STAB is reliable. Overall having a far more consistent Hurricane just makes you realize how easy it is to spam it, and Heat Wave means its got the same annoying Fire/Flying coverage that makes Moltres such a bitch to fight against if you aren't trying to aggressively keep your rocks up. I also still am a fan of the Work Up Stallbreaker set due to it often being a neat surprise if the opponent expects it to be the standard attacker+kinda pivot. I think the rarity of Mega Pidgeot only plays into its favor as it can sometimes surprisingly chip its opposing checks a lot easier than Moltres because of it. I'm still a little on the fence if it should actually drop in viability since it doesn't seem to have enough going for it but it fits the criteria of overhated so I gotta talk about it.Mega Pidgeot has a mediocre damage output and is inferior compared to the consistency of Moltres and Togekiss. Mega Pidgeot also hates the upward usage of Rotom-H
Mega #3: Mega Sceptile
My Thoughts: Mega Altaria having a resurgence kinda sucks but any team that doesn't have it is going to have an annoying time against Mega Sceptile. I swear I keep forgetting that this Pokémon has Lightning Rod and that really fucked me over one match when I thought I could safely pivot out with Mega Manectric. But with Mega Sceptile's speed tier and its moves and coverage, its another Pokémon that's hard as fuck to find a safe switch-in to. It's a rather match-up dependent Pokémon and it definitely isn't a sweeper (I tried to use SD Mega Scept and its unfortunately pretty mediocre) but people need to cut it some slack because when it delivers, it DELIVERS.Mega Sceptile despises all of the Fairy-types roaming around especially Togekiss. It is often outclassed as an offensive Grass-type and as a Dragon-type.
Mega #4: Mega Absol
My Thoughts: Let's be real about this, when was the last time you have seen a serious Mega Absol? Exactly, you probably haven't but that doesn't mean that Mega Absol is completely terrible. It's not gameshaking in any sort of way but Mega Absol does have some miniscule niches that makes it somewhat unique. For starters, its Knock Off has a strong chance to OHKO Z-Move Latias after rocks damage unlike Scarf Krook who will only 2HKO it unless it is running Crunch which is usually inferior to Stone Edge. Mega Absol also isn't locked into a move by a choice item and has an ok pre-mega ability, Justified, to handle Dark spam. Not being locked into a Dark-type move is far more beneficial in this metagame due to its access to Superpower to handle the Fighting-types and Hydra. Finally, Sucker Punch can be decently effective at being some priority to surprise Mega Aerodactyl and Zeraora and picking them off once they've been weakened. Despite its paper thin defenses, sporting a 150 base attack along with what's mentioned above makes Mega Absol a passable Pokémon in UU despite what the contrary may think of it.Mega Absol is simply an atrocious Pokémon because it is outclassed by other offensive Dark-types. It also fails to be a Pursuit trapper compared to others that outclass it such as Mega Aerodactyl and Scarfed Krookodile.
Mega #5: Mega Glalie
My Thoughts: Mega Glaile is probably the most interesting mega out of all of these. It was advocated by many to be ranked months ago due to it not already being ranked and once it did, it pretty much became ignored for a while until some complaints started to pop up that denounced and questioned the legitimacy of Mega Glaile. Mega Glaile is a much more interesting case because this Pokémon would probably be far better if it didn't take up a mega slot. Mega Glaile has honestly flown under the radar and people really underestimate how strong this Pokémon is with Refrigerate. In a way, it combines Mamoswine's offensive prowess and Froslass's utility while also suiciding after doing its job quite well. This is just one of those megas that people seriously are surprised to see when it is played and let me tell you, you do NOT want to be hit by a Refrigerate boosted Explosion. Mega Glalie overall requires some more experimentation because this Pokémon can seriously shred the opposing team early in the game while setting up hazards if played correctly.This Pokémon is currently being outshined by its sister Froslass. Mega Glaile is rather awkward to fit on teams and really doesn't have any sort of niche. It also hates the brutal metagame that's full of Fighting-types.
That's all folks! Glad to see you all tune into UU's Most Hated! These are often some of the most overlooked Mega evolutions of the tier so shedding some light onto these Pokémon could possibly help and even encourage newer players to take a look at them and play around with these Megas! Now that's the end of my show! Farewell folks!
Great post. I have some disagreements though. I don't think these Pokemon are hated it's just that the meta is not friendly to them.
135 special attack isn't a mediocre damage output. Also how is Mega Pidgeot less consistent than Moltres or Togekiss when it's faster, stronger, and literally can't miss. We probably have different meaning of consistency here. What you should be hitting at is how Togekiss and Moltres actually have defensive utility which make them nicer to use on bulky offense and balance teams. Also Heatom isn't what's holding Mega Pidge back. 252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 87-103 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO. Hurricane does over 1/4 of it's health if it is max hp which isn't every Heatom. With rocks up it's only switching into Pidge once which is nothing. Mega Pidgeot is concerned Mega Manectric who is still very good, Zeraora, Pursuit trap which has always been very popular in UU, Nihilego, Mega Aero, Blissey, Empoleon, as well as Scizor and all the other speed control which can consistently RKO it since it doesn't have spectacular stats. Mega Pidgeot belongs in B-. The other birds may be better but Mega Pidge has undeniable utility.
If you're going to run Mega Sceptile you should run physical or pair it with Scizor. Iron Tail has a 25% chance to miss but its a fairly consistent way of allowing Mega Sceptile to punish Fairy-types. Mega Sceptile is honestly so much better than special or mixed. You can still hit Grass-types hard with Leaf Blade and Earthquake makes it harder for Empoleon to start the Toxic Protect cycle.
252 Atk Sceptile-Mega Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Florges: 226-268 (62.7 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sceptile-Mega Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sceptile-Mega Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 204-240 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sceptile-Mega Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 180-212 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sceptile-Mega Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sceptile-Mega Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 204-240 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sceptile-Mega Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 180-212 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This first part of that sentence is really not true. A mixed set is better instead of physical sets considering Mega Sceptile needs to boost before dealing meaningful damage compared to its regular sets. On the other hand Iron tail mixed Sceptile can actually grab a 2hko on Togekiss with a prediction on its part.
4 Atk Sceptile-Mega Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 146-172 (39 - 45.9%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
4 Atk Sceptile-Mega Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Florges: 160-190 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Sceptile-Mega Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 130-154 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Sceptile-Mega Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Florges: 160-190 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Sceptile-Mega Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 130-154 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
There are more optimal spreads that can be run but i am just posting these as a mean to demonstrate my point. The problem is, as mentioned above, inaccuracy of the move.
Uhh gastro is back in UU!
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Gastrodon isn't UU it is actually PU now since that was the initial tier that it rose from to OU. But hey, we got no drops for once!
LETS PARTY!
Expect new drops during the next cycle, since Zygarde was banned too late in this one to see any notable OU drops or rises occur.
What would we even get from that ban? Not like people are suddenly gonna stop using Tangrowth
I could see Amoonguss getting usage up in OU land again
Since it's no longer damning to be a grass w/o ground resist
As for what they'd give us I'm not sure
If anything MVenu got better but the passive nature of Amoong and its reliancy to spore doesnt make it a great mon considering how much electric terrain is common. I dont see many mons dropping anytime soon anymore. Maybe Gliscor lost its niche and will lose usage in ladder play even though its still good in tours.
I doubt Gliscor will fall off. It still offers a fairly consistent Heatran Check, as well as a defogger that, once more, beats Heatran. Maybe we'll get lucky and get some good drops like Keldeo and Mew.
Anyways, I'd like to give my thoughts on where I believe the meta is trending towards.
As of when this post is being written, we have
So
Gamefreak recently blessed us with the unreleased berries. While we didn't get many tier changes with tier shifts, this is another thing we just got recently that could shake things up a little. I was reminded these were around the corner in the VR thread, when I saw Hogg mentioning custap berry in regards to Snorlax. Custap Berry is a very interesting tool, as it allows a low health pokemon to break the speed tiers just once in it's priority bracket, which could leave room for some very interesting sets. The other berry that could possibly be interesting on a gimmick set is the Micle Berry, which allows a low health pokemon to hit a move with great accuracy behind it. I'm not quite sure exactly what to do with these berries yet myself, but I figured I'd make note that they're here since few pay attention to things like berries. What mons/sets do you guys think could benefit from the berries' release?
Gamefreak recently blessed us with the unreleased berries. While we didn't get many tier changes with tier shifts, this is another thing we just got recently that could shake things up a little. I was reminded these were around the corner in the VR thread, when I saw Hogg mentioning custap berry in regards to Snorlax. Custap Berry is a very interesting tool, as it allows a low health pokemon to break the speed tiers just once in it's priority bracket, which could leave room for some very interesting sets. The other berry that could possibly be interesting on a gimmick set is the Micle Berry, which allows a low health pokemon to hit a move with great accuracy behind it. I'm not quite sure exactly what to do with these berries yet myself, but I figured I'd make note that they're here since few pay attention to things like berries. What mons/sets do you guys think could benefit from the berries' release?
I remember forretres using custap berry with explosion
There's also Shuckle. I believe in Gen 6 its Custap Berry set got it banned from RU
The ubiquity of Defog this generation means that I can't see Custap suicide leads being *that* effective, though certainly there could be some merit to a Custap Sturdy Rocks/Spikes/Spin/Boom Forry on a Bisharp Spikestack. That being said, Custap is definitely a clutch offensive choice on some 'mons. It's the kind of thing that tends to translate better to tours than ladders, but Custap on a slower but hard-hitting and bulky offensive threat can be really effective, as can Endure + Custap.
Even more interesting to me are the Gluttony 'mons, Snorlax and Alo-Muk. They both have good enough bulk to get a curse off, hit something hard, and get in a Custap-boosted Explosion. Last gen dodmen had a couple of teams that used Curse/DE/Fire Punch/Selfdestruct Custap Snorlax to good effect, and I'm willing to bet it's still at least somewhat viable now.
I doubt that there will be major changes, but I definitely think that Custap should be at least relevant even if it’ll never be common.
Even more interesting to me are the Gluttony 'mons, Snorlax and Alo-Muk. They both have good enough bulk to get a curse off, hit something hard, and get in a Custap-boosted Explosion. Last gen dodmen had a couple of teams that used Curse/DE/Fire Punch/Selfdestruct Custap Snorlax to good effect, and I'm willing to bet it's still at least somewhat viable now.
I doubt that there will be major changes, but I definitely think that Custap should be at least relevant even if it’ll never be common.
There was some commenting on Zoroark earlier, and I thought I'd pick up on that a bit with a basic oversight.
Zoroark is fundamentally a lure, and I think its biggest problem is the UU usage statistics. Among the first 30, only 3 - Latias, Gengar and Celebi - are weak to dark. Of those, Latias and Gengar outspeed Zoroark. On the other hand resistances to dark are very common. Of the top 10 used pokemon, 7 of them resist dark and 6 of those also hit back with STAB super effectively. And it doesn't really get better when you go down the usage list, just less bad - kind of. UU is really not the tier you want to be in as a mono dark-type. This leaves Zoroark's remaining assets as its coverage moves, which you could argue discredits its physical option since it lacks them.
Probably the most obvious coverage move is flamethrower due to Scizor topping the usage stats, the problem is to get Zoroark in on Scizor without simply being revealed and KOed as par for the course from u-turn or bullet punch. Then there's pretty much sludge bomb and focus miss, arguably grass knot, extrasensory doesn't have enough utility, and that's it. Choose depending on what you want to and think you can feasibly lure. For items I think there are three options: specs + trick + 3 attacks, specs + 4 attacks and sash + nasty plot + 3 attacks. But none of them are particularly appealing. Sash needs a turn to KO what it's supposed to lure unless it's 4x weak, but specs loses some utility as clutch switch in or revenge killer, is liable to simply be KOed by attacks, and may give the opponent a free turn if forced to switch out from choice lock.
Overall, it's the UU meta which is hostile territory for Zoroark's mono-dark typing and puts a big damper on it. It's clearly always supposed to be a glass cannon, you always expect that, but the UU meta makes Zoroark also shoot blanks.
Zoroark is fundamentally a lure, and I think its biggest problem is the UU usage statistics. Among the first 30, only 3 - Latias, Gengar and Celebi - are weak to dark. Of those, Latias and Gengar outspeed Zoroark. On the other hand resistances to dark are very common. Of the top 10 used pokemon, 7 of them resist dark and 6 of those also hit back with STAB super effectively. And it doesn't really get better when you go down the usage list, just less bad - kind of. UU is really not the tier you want to be in as a mono dark-type. This leaves Zoroark's remaining assets as its coverage moves, which you could argue discredits its physical option since it lacks them.
Probably the most obvious coverage move is flamethrower due to Scizor topping the usage stats, the problem is to get Zoroark in on Scizor without simply being revealed and KOed as par for the course from u-turn or bullet punch. Then there's pretty much sludge bomb and focus miss, arguably grass knot, extrasensory doesn't have enough utility, and that's it. Choose depending on what you want to and think you can feasibly lure. For items I think there are three options: specs + trick + 3 attacks, specs + 4 attacks and sash + nasty plot + 3 attacks. But none of them are particularly appealing. Sash needs a turn to KO what it's supposed to lure unless it's 4x weak, but specs loses some utility as clutch switch in or revenge killer, is liable to simply be KOed by attacks, and may give the opponent a free turn if forced to switch out from choice lock.
Overall, it's the UU meta which is hostile territory for Zoroark's mono-dark typing and puts a big damper on it. It's clearly always supposed to be a glass cannon, you always expect that, but the UU meta makes Zoroark also shoot blanks.
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This part of your statement actually got me curious.
Zoroark @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 16 HP / 252 SpA / 240 Spe (Takes BP from banded scizor a bit better while still outspeeding Nihilego)
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
Bisharp is very popular & it's sucker punch hits strong. Especially to Latias, Gengar, and Celebi. So, Zoroark can actually be a really good lure for them. Zoroark even helps beat fat steel types (Mega Lix, Mega Aggron, & Empoleon) for Latias so it doesn't have to carry t-bolt or z-thunder if you want to go with cm on it. It can even weaken or flat out KO A-Muk for Latias, Gengar, and Celebi. It's honestly a pretty strong niche.
While zoroark hits decently hard and all, it’s honestly a sub-par lure as it’s rather apparent when it’s zoroark with aggressive play. Also, hazards completely mess with it. With hazards being on literally all teams with value, it seriously reduces the potential it’d otherwise have. Maybe in the future Game Freak will make it a legitimate illusion and not make the hazard damages apparent or w/e, but as it stands zoroark is a bad pick imo
I'd argue it's not. Latias and Gengar are big threats so one slip-up can easily go for the illusion player. Gengar already runs focus blast (mainly for krook) so it does force Bisharp to go for Sucker. Latias is a big threat that can KO with not too much chip and hazards. Also, z-earth power from Celebi KOs too. It's a heavy 50-50 that can make or break the game.
Now with Empoleon (or any fat of the other fat steels I mentioned), if you notice nasty plot being used on Gengar or Latias, you obviously realize that you have to switch or else get KO'd. Problem is, not much tanks a hit from a +2 Zoroark on balance or bulky offense team. Another heavy 50-50 that makes or breaks the game.
Hazards are not too big of a problem if Moltres is on the rise.
It's not like I'm saying Zoroark is amazing but, it can produce some strong 50/50s that are usually in it's favor.
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What's up folks ?! Since I'm a little bored, I thought I could do a post for beginners which would like to understand how the current UU metagame is working. I'll try my best by putting everything I know into practice. Hope you'll like it !
Chapter 1 - Scizor : The One
Since it was introduced in UU at the beginning of SM, Scizor has been one of the most prominent threat in the tier. It's great typing provides it useful resistances to common types like Fairy or Dragon and granting it one unique weakness to Fire type. Due to its large Movepool and great Statistics overall, Scizor is really versatile and it can be played in a plethora of ways with either Choice Band, Swords Dance + 3 attacks, Swords Dance + Roost + 2 attacks, Defensive Defog and even more weird sets with Assault Vest or Choice Scarf. As I said before, Scizor has a great Movepool which includes Bullet Punch, U-Turn, Bug Bite, Roost, Swords Dance, Knock Off, Pursuit, Superpower, Defog or even Quick Attack. It can also hold multiple item like Choice Band, Life Orb, Iron Plate/Metal Coat, Leftovers, Buginium Z, Fightinium Z etc.. Overall, Scizor is dominant threat in Underused and it can act as a Pivot, a Cleaner, a Wallbreaker or even a Support.
Chapter 2 - Dragon types : Drop the Draco
Dragon types are dominants Pokemon in Underused as most of them can threaten a huge majority of the tier thanks to their powerful Dragon STAB. Hydreigon and Latias are the most threatening of them due to their versatility and the fact that they can run some coverage to dent their checks. Thereby, Latias can use (Z-)Thunder or (Z-)Thunderbolt to nuke Empoleon or Primarina while Hydreigon can run Z-Focus Blast or Z-Belch to hit Empoleon or Fairy types. Both of them can act as great Revenge Killer if they old a Choice Scarf and while Hydreigon is a great Pivot thanks to U-Turn, Latias can bring some support to its team thanks to Trick or Healing Wish. Thanks to its typing, Hydreigon can be used as an offensive check to some threats like Krookodile, Crawdaunt or Bisharp. It can also run many Z-Moves which allows it to be hard to predict. On its side, Latias is a great setup Sweeper thanks to Calm Mind and Recover/Roost. Like Hydreigon, Latias is able to run several Z-Crystal like Dragonium Z, Electrium Z or even Psychium Z. On the other hand, Kommo-o is a threat which carved itself a solid place in the Underused thanks to its great typing and its access to useful moves like Dragon Dance, Close Combat, Clanging Scales or Stealth Rock. Finally, you can find in Underused lesser used Dragon types like Kyurem, Haxorus, Sceptile-Mega or Zygarde 10%. Although not as powerful and predominant those previously mentioned, each of them as a more or less important niche in Underused.
Chapter 3 - Fairy types : The best answer to Dragon types
Fairy types are the best answer to Dragon type since they're immune to their STAB. This typing is amazing so defensively as offensively and almost a third of the ten most used Pokémon in Underused are Fairy types which is as much as Dragon types. While Fairy types has a tredemendous utility on the defensive spectrum, they're also able to pressure a huge majority of the tier thanks to their STAB. Thereby, Nasty Plot Togekiss is one of the best Stallbreaker in the tier while Choice Specs Primarina is one of the best Wallbreaker in the whole tier. On its side, Altaria-Mega is a versatile Pokemon which can either be a Setup Sweeper thanks to Dragon Dance but also a Support thanks to moves like Roost, Defog and Heal Bell. On the other hand, there is Fairy types which are much more used for their support ability. Indeed, Florges and Sylveon are great WishPasser and Cleric while Klefki and Diancie are really nice Hazards setter.
Chapter 4 - Dark types : Here comes the Dark side of Underused
Despite the fact that Fairy types are really common in Underused, Dark types have a strong presence in the tier. Most of them can rely on their second type or coverage to threaten Fairies like Krookodile with either Earthquake or Stone Edge, Bisharp with Iron Head, Houndoom-Mega with Sludge Bomb or Muk-Alola with either Gunk Shot or Poison Jab. They're also the best abuser of Knock off which is one of the best moves in the game. Some of them are great setup Sweeper like Swords Dance Bisharp, Swords Dance Crawdaunt or Nasty Plot Houndoom-Mega while others are great Revenge Killer or Cleaner like Choice Scarf Hydreigon and Choice Scarf Krookodile or Sharpedo-Mega thanks to its pre-Mega Evolution ability : Speed Boost. Dark type is also a pretty decent offensive type which only has 3 resistances to Dark, Fairy and Fighting. Since most of Underused's Dark types can pressure those types thanks to their coverage, it's pretty straightforward to understand why this type is a dominant one in the tier.
Chapter 5 - Steel types : Let's Smash those fairies
Steel types are great in Underused because they're able to handle a lot of common types like Dragon type, Fairy type or Flying type. While some of them are dominent threats like Scizor, Bisharp, Cobalion or Lucario ; others provide an insanely amount of support to a team like Empoleon which can check Latias and Fairy types while still being able to set Stealth Rocks or use Defog to remove Entry Hazards. On the other hand, Aggron-Mega and Steelix-Mega are great pick in Bulky Offense, Balanced or Stall teams thanks to their fantastic Bulk and their access to Stealth Rocks. While Doublade isn't as much threatening as Scizor or Bisharp nor so Bulky as Aggron-Mega or Steelix-Mega, its access to Swords Dance and its great typing allow it to be a really cool pick in some builds. Last but not least, Klefki can provide a lot of support to its teammates thanks to Spikes, Toxic, Thunder Wave or Defog. Overall, Steel types are almost a necessity if you want tot build a good team in Underused.
Chapter 6 - Ground types : The Volt Switch immunity
Ground types are really useful in Underused thanks to their immunity to Electric types and so to Volt Switch which is pretty common in the current metagame. Ground types also bring support to the team thanks to Stealth Rock and each of them has its own assets which allows them to be effective. While Krookodile, Mamoswine and Nidoking are really useful pick in more Offensive teams, Hippowdon, Gligar, Steelix-Mega, Nidoqueen and Swampert fit well in more Bulky or Defensive builds. Ground type is also an interesting offensive type which can pressure Steel types, Electric types or Fire types. Due to their immunity to Volt Switch, Ground types are nice check to Pokemon like Manectric-Mega, Rotom-Heat or Zeraora.
Chapter 7 - Water types : Under the sea ♪
Underused is known for a long time to be the den of Water types. Water type is one of the best defensive type in Pokemon and a lot of Water types in Underused are great example of this fact. While Empoleon is one of the best Defogger in the tier and a check to a plethora of threats, Tentacruel, Starmie and Blastoise-Mega are great users of Rapid Spin. On ther other hand, Slowbro(-Mega), Alomomola, Suicune or Jellicent fit perfect in Bulky and Defensive builds thanks to their great Bulk and their acces to a way of Recovery. Water type is also amazing because of Scald which is one of the most useful moves in Pokemon thanks to its 30% of burning the foe. Almost every Special Water types has this attack in its moveset. On the other hand, Water types can be real special powerhouse like Choice Specs Primarina, Choice Specs Volcanion or Blastoise-Mega. Although they are in minority, there is also some Water types which are physical like Crawdaunt or Araquanid. Thanks to their resistances to Fire type, Steel type or Ice type, Water types are able to handle common threats in Underused such as Scizor, Aerodactyl-Mega, Krookodile or Infernape.
Chapter 8 - Fighting types : Better than Street Fighter
Fighting type is one of the best offensive type and most of its representatives are super strong breaker. While Terrakion is the best Wallbreaker in the tier thanks to either Choice Band or Rockium Z / Fightinium Z ; Cobalion and Kommo-o are really nice Stealth Rocks setter but also powerful setup Sweepers thanks to Swords Dance and Rock Polish for Cobalion and Dragon Dance or Swords Dance for Kommo-o. Infernape is a really nice Pivot thanks to its Choice Band set while Nasty Plot allows it to be one of the most effective breaker in the tier. In the same way, Nasty Plot Lucario can really dent Defensive Pokemon thanks to its great typing. On the other hand, Flame Orb Guts Heracross is a threatening Wallbreaker while Assault Vest Mienshao is a really nice Offensive Pivot. Last but not least, Bewear is an underrated breaker thanks to either Choice Band or Swords Dance + Z-Double Edge while Toxicroak's access to the ability Dry Skin allows it to abuse of the many Water types Pokemon in the tier which gives it a nice niche. As you have understood, Fighting types are really dangerous and it's mandatory to have something in your team which can handle them at least a minimum.
Chapter 9 - VoltTurn : Momentum addict
VoltTurn is one of the best playstyle in Underused but also a great way to generate Momentum. There is many different Pokémon which can fulfil this role and most of them paired really well together. VoltTurn is a really good way to pressure the opponent and allows you to bring with ease some Pokemon on the field like powerful Wallbreaker. Overall, the majority of the team in Underused has at least one Pokemon with either Volt-Switch or U-Turn but there is also some builds with much more VoltTurn users.
Well that's all for today. I tried my best to do something as much complete as possible and I hope this post may help beginners.
Thanks for reading me, take care !
Chapter 1 - Scizor : The One
Since it was introduced in UU at the beginning of SM, Scizor has been one of the most prominent threat in the tier. It's great typing provides it useful resistances to common types like Fairy or Dragon and granting it one unique weakness to Fire type. Due to its large Movepool and great Statistics overall, Scizor is really versatile and it can be played in a plethora of ways with either Choice Band, Swords Dance + 3 attacks, Swords Dance + Roost + 2 attacks, Defensive Defog and even more weird sets with Assault Vest or Choice Scarf. As I said before, Scizor has a great Movepool which includes Bullet Punch, U-Turn, Bug Bite, Roost, Swords Dance, Knock Off, Pursuit, Superpower, Defog or even Quick Attack. It can also hold multiple item like Choice Band, Life Orb, Iron Plate/Metal Coat, Leftovers, Buginium Z, Fightinium Z etc.. Overall, Scizor is dominant threat in Underused and it can act as a Pivot, a Cleaner, a Wallbreaker or even a Support.
Chapter 2 - Dragon types : Drop the Draco
Dragon types are dominants Pokemon in Underused as most of them can threaten a huge majority of the tier thanks to their powerful Dragon STAB. Hydreigon and Latias are the most threatening of them due to their versatility and the fact that they can run some coverage to dent their checks. Thereby, Latias can use (Z-)Thunder or (Z-)Thunderbolt to nuke Empoleon or Primarina while Hydreigon can run Z-Focus Blast or Z-Belch to hit Empoleon or Fairy types. Both of them can act as great Revenge Killer if they old a Choice Scarf and while Hydreigon is a great Pivot thanks to U-Turn, Latias can bring some support to its team thanks to Trick or Healing Wish. Thanks to its typing, Hydreigon can be used as an offensive check to some threats like Krookodile, Crawdaunt or Bisharp. It can also run many Z-Moves which allows it to be hard to predict. On its side, Latias is a great setup Sweeper thanks to Calm Mind and Recover/Roost. Like Hydreigon, Latias is able to run several Z-Crystal like Dragonium Z, Electrium Z or even Psychium Z. On the other hand, Kommo-o is a threat which carved itself a solid place in the Underused thanks to its great typing and its access to useful moves like Dragon Dance, Close Combat, Clanging Scales or Stealth Rock. Finally, you can find in Underused lesser used Dragon types like Kyurem, Haxorus, Sceptile-Mega or Zygarde 10%. Although not as powerful and predominant those previously mentioned, each of them as a more or less important niche in Underused.
Chapter 3 - Fairy types : The best answer to Dragon types
Fairy types are the best answer to Dragon type since they're immune to their STAB. This typing is amazing so defensively as offensively and almost a third of the ten most used Pokémon in Underused are Fairy types which is as much as Dragon types. While Fairy types has a tredemendous utility on the defensive spectrum, they're also able to pressure a huge majority of the tier thanks to their STAB. Thereby, Nasty Plot Togekiss is one of the best Stallbreaker in the tier while Choice Specs Primarina is one of the best Wallbreaker in the whole tier. On its side, Altaria-Mega is a versatile Pokemon which can either be a Setup Sweeper thanks to Dragon Dance but also a Support thanks to moves like Roost, Defog and Heal Bell. On the other hand, there is Fairy types which are much more used for their support ability. Indeed, Florges and Sylveon are great WishPasser and Cleric while Klefki and Diancie are really nice Hazards setter.
Chapter 4 - Dark types : Here comes the Dark side of Underused
Despite the fact that Fairy types are really common in Underused, Dark types have a strong presence in the tier. Most of them can rely on their second type or coverage to threaten Fairies like Krookodile with either Earthquake or Stone Edge, Bisharp with Iron Head, Houndoom-Mega with Sludge Bomb or Muk-Alola with either Gunk Shot or Poison Jab. They're also the best abuser of Knock off which is one of the best moves in the game. Some of them are great setup Sweeper like Swords Dance Bisharp, Swords Dance Crawdaunt or Nasty Plot Houndoom-Mega while others are great Revenge Killer or Cleaner like Choice Scarf Hydreigon and Choice Scarf Krookodile or Sharpedo-Mega thanks to its pre-Mega Evolution ability : Speed Boost. Dark type is also a pretty decent offensive type which only has 3 resistances to Dark, Fairy and Fighting. Since most of Underused's Dark types can pressure those types thanks to their coverage, it's pretty straightforward to understand why this type is a dominant one in the tier.
Chapter 5 - Steel types : Let's Smash those fairies
Steel types are great in Underused because they're able to handle a lot of common types like Dragon type, Fairy type or Flying type. While some of them are dominent threats like Scizor, Bisharp, Cobalion or Lucario ; others provide an insanely amount of support to a team like Empoleon which can check Latias and Fairy types while still being able to set Stealth Rocks or use Defog to remove Entry Hazards. On the other hand, Aggron-Mega and Steelix-Mega are great pick in Bulky Offense, Balanced or Stall teams thanks to their fantastic Bulk and their access to Stealth Rocks. While Doublade isn't as much threatening as Scizor or Bisharp nor so Bulky as Aggron-Mega or Steelix-Mega, its access to Swords Dance and its great typing allow it to be a really cool pick in some builds. Last but not least, Klefki can provide a lot of support to its teammates thanks to Spikes, Toxic, Thunder Wave or Defog. Overall, Steel types are almost a necessity if you want tot build a good team in Underused.
Chapter 6 - Ground types : The Volt Switch immunity
Ground types are really useful in Underused thanks to their immunity to Electric types and so to Volt Switch which is pretty common in the current metagame. Ground types also bring support to the team thanks to Stealth Rock and each of them has its own assets which allows them to be effective. While Krookodile, Mamoswine and Nidoking are really useful pick in more Offensive teams, Hippowdon, Gligar, Steelix-Mega, Nidoqueen and Swampert fit well in more Bulky or Defensive builds. Ground type is also an interesting offensive type which can pressure Steel types, Electric types or Fire types. Due to their immunity to Volt Switch, Ground types are nice check to Pokemon like Manectric-Mega, Rotom-Heat or Zeraora.
Chapter 7 - Water types : Under the sea ♪
Underused is known for a long time to be the den of Water types. Water type is one of the best defensive type in Pokemon and a lot of Water types in Underused are great example of this fact. While Empoleon is one of the best Defogger in the tier and a check to a plethora of threats, Tentacruel, Starmie and Blastoise-Mega are great users of Rapid Spin. On ther other hand, Slowbro(-Mega), Alomomola, Suicune or Jellicent fit perfect in Bulky and Defensive builds thanks to their great Bulk and their acces to a way of Recovery. Water type is also amazing because of Scald which is one of the most useful moves in Pokemon thanks to its 30% of burning the foe. Almost every Special Water types has this attack in its moveset. On the other hand, Water types can be real special powerhouse like Choice Specs Primarina, Choice Specs Volcanion or Blastoise-Mega. Although they are in minority, there is also some Water types which are physical like Crawdaunt or Araquanid. Thanks to their resistances to Fire type, Steel type or Ice type, Water types are able to handle common threats in Underused such as Scizor, Aerodactyl-Mega, Krookodile or Infernape.
Chapter 8 - Fighting types : Better than Street Fighter
Fighting type is one of the best offensive type and most of its representatives are super strong breaker. While Terrakion is the best Wallbreaker in the tier thanks to either Choice Band or Rockium Z / Fightinium Z ; Cobalion and Kommo-o are really nice Stealth Rocks setter but also powerful setup Sweepers thanks to Swords Dance and Rock Polish for Cobalion and Dragon Dance or Swords Dance for Kommo-o. Infernape is a really nice Pivot thanks to its Choice Band set while Nasty Plot allows it to be one of the most effective breaker in the tier. In the same way, Nasty Plot Lucario can really dent Defensive Pokemon thanks to its great typing. On the other hand, Flame Orb Guts Heracross is a threatening Wallbreaker while Assault Vest Mienshao is a really nice Offensive Pivot. Last but not least, Bewear is an underrated breaker thanks to either Choice Band or Swords Dance + Z-Double Edge while Toxicroak's access to the ability Dry Skin allows it to abuse of the many Water types Pokemon in the tier which gives it a nice niche. As you have understood, Fighting types are really dangerous and it's mandatory to have something in your team which can handle them at least a minimum.
Chapter 9 - VoltTurn : Momentum addict
VoltTurn is one of the best playstyle in Underused but also a great way to generate Momentum. There is many different Pokémon which can fulfil this role and most of them paired really well together. VoltTurn is a really good way to pressure the opponent and allows you to bring with ease some Pokemon on the field like powerful Wallbreaker. Overall, the majority of the team in Underused has at least one Pokemon with either Volt-Switch or U-Turn but there is also some builds with much more VoltTurn users.
Well that's all for today. I tried my best to do something as much complete as possible and I hope this post may help beginners.
Thanks for reading me, take care !
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That post was extremely helpful to a guy who used to play, but is so outta touch he doesn't even know how to jump back in. Now I have a reference point.
Do you have any opinions on the place of ghost an grass types? Not simply for mons like Decidueye, but in general, separately. I figured grass has a definite place, but having not seen it on the list makes me think that it's rather niche? And I figure with defog, and the dark rising, ghosts fell outta place? I remember when both we're hot on this very site not too long ago, crazy how the meta flips.
Also, what place do monotypes have? I rarely see them. Seems like a question for simple q & a, but I can't seem to find that thread...
Do you have any opinions on the place of ghost an grass types? Not simply for mons like Decidueye, but in general, separately. I figured grass has a definite place, but having not seen it on the list makes me think that it's rather niche? And I figure with defog, and the dark rising, ghosts fell outta place? I remember when both we're hot on this very site not too long ago, crazy how the meta flips.
Also, what place do monotypes have? I rarely see them. Seems like a question for simple q & a, but I can't seem to find that thread...
Grass types are still usable in the tier, tho not as prominent. Not to mention the tier isn't really littered with them: we have Chesnaught, Amoong, Celebi and Tsareena as the most effective grass types. Grass types like Decideuye are by no means unviable but id say these 4 are the most prominent. Water and ground types are very popular as shown in Moutes post and most of these keep them in check. Chesnaught recently rose because terrakion, bisharp and Zera became popular and a spike user is always valuable. While bisharp and zera hype has gone down its still decent in the meta. Amoong again is seeing more popularity as a pivot with common trends with fighting types being prevalent. Regenerator in general makes it a great pivot to keep checking threats like Coba and Malt etc. Tsareena is an effective spinner or CB user to lure in steel types, as well as being a good pivot. Thanks to Queenly Majesty it can handle bisharp and a weakened scizor. Celebi has adapted pretty well to the rise of hydreigon with psychium + dazzling sets, even Ghostium sets have been popular for hitting Latias while still nuking steel types. Making it an excellent breaker / sweeper, even lure sets with colbur aren't awful.
They all perform different roles but they are definitely viable rather than what may have given you the impression of niche. They aren't as amazing as they could be right now but I think they are in an alright spot. Celebi is by far the most flexible of the four in terms of how many NP sets it can run but I hope this is helpful to you ^_^
They all perform different roles but they are definitely viable rather than what may have given you the impression of niche. They aren't as amazing as they could be right now but I think they are in an alright spot. Celebi is by far the most flexible of the four in terms of how many NP sets it can run but I hope this is helpful to you ^_^
