Project USUM UU Research Week v2 (On a break)

Darksafadao

best of the second options
Approved by the UU mod team - cohosted with Moutemoute - thanks to Ark and eht for the original project and OP

Once again, Research Week is back, this time with me! In this third edition, participants research suggested Pokemon every week and share their experience. Whoever has the highest ladder score at the end of the week will be declared the winner. For details, see below.

Keep the following things in mind during every Research Week:
  • Be open-minded. Don't just say something is terrible and walk away; look at its stats, typing and movepool and think something up!
  • Feel free to theorymon early in the research period, but make it clear you're doing so. Later in the period, however, you will be expected to back up your posts with hard evidence like logs, actual sets, perhaps even teams.
  • Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's very likely that something has gone unnoticed.
  • Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon or movesets I choose and / or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. Feel free to VM / PM me these suggestions, but don't expect me to always listen to you.
A few things to clarify:
  • Sign-ups can be as late as you want, but the week will always end on Sunday.
  • Early period means the first three days of the Research Week, so let's keep the theorymoning to a minimum after this period. The late period refers to the last four days of the research week, where raw evidence and discussion should become the basis of the thread.
  • Discussion is mandatory in order to be considered as a winner of Research Week. If you do not post one somewhat-coherent post that describes the Pokemon that you're using, their roles, and their niche in the metagame, you will be disqualified from winning this week. Please post about your experiences regardless of whether you think you've got a chance to win or not, we appreciate it!
  • Finally, I'd like to implore you to all please remember to post and save your replays. Often, these replays are the most informative sources of information about RW Pokemon - you can write a full two paragraphs about the role of a Pokemon, but often that can all be summed up with a video and an explanation of it. How useful are these Pokemon in SMUU? What gives them trouble? What advantages do they have over other Pokemon? How well do they work in the metagame? If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! Remember, discussion is not limited to this topic, you are encouraged to talk about these Pokemon in the UU chat on Pokemon Showdown, in the official UU Discord, and in the Viability Ranking Thread.
This Week's Selection

houndoom-mega.png


Houndoom-Mega @ Houndoominite

Ability: Solar Power

EVs: Filler

Filler Nature

- Filler

- Filler

- Filler

- Filler

latias.png


Latias (F) @ Psychium Z

Ability: Levitate

EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Timid Nature

- Calm Mind

- Psychic / Psyshock

-

-

gligar.png


Gligar @ Eviolite

Ability: Immunity

EVs: Filler

Filler Nature

- Curse

- Earthquake

- Filler
- Filler

In order to participate you must do the following:
  • Post here with a fresh (USM) RW alt (such as USM RW1 altariaoffense or USM RW2 cak depending on the week) and the name(s) of the Pokemon you will be using.
  • Use at least one of the Pokemon being researched.
  • Post your experiences with the Pokemon you're using, participate in the discussion!
  • Post logs of this Pokemon in action against other teams - don't just tell us, show us
 
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Hello, Research Week is back! We are excited to explore some sets with potential with you. For this first week, we've picked the following ones:

latias.gif

Latias @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
-
-
-

virizion.gif

Virizion @ Filler item
Ability: Justified
EVs: Filler EVs
Filler Nature
-
-
-
-
togekiss.gif

Togekiss @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: Filler spread
Timid Nature
- Air Slash
- Trick
-
-

Although many of its great sets rely on Calm Mind and Z-Moves and Choice Scarf has been lower in popularity than in the past, the Choice Specs set has some potential. The instant added power and Latias's good Speed tier makes it an interesting pick, and we'd like to see how you guys like it as a breaker.

Virizion has always been the neglected member of the Swords of Justice—it isn't even ranked on the Viability Rankings. However, it has a few traits that have caused it to accrue some interest over the past few months, mainly its ability to pressure Water- and Ground-types. Its Swords Dance Z-Move sets are particularly interesting, but any set you use is fine for this week.

Togekiss has found itself as one of the tier's premiere Fairy types as of late, and it's not very surprising when you take a look at it's expansive movepool. A Choice Scarf option would take advantage of its aforementioned movepool while enabling it to beat/cripple (thanks to Trick) some of the mons that check it.

As with past editions, sign up with a fresh USMRW1 alt, and post your results, as well as your own thoughts on the Pokemon in question. You are free to edit your signup post if your post count is a concern. For the first week, the deadline will be Sunday, Dec 23rd, at 11:59 pm GMT-2. My co-host sei or I will check everyone's ladder scores then and decide the winner. Good luck everyone and happy researching!
 
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UnbecomingDuck said:
USUMRW1 Ducky
I'll try all 3
Click to expand...

I'm posting early because I know I won't be winning anything, but I want to write down my thoughts anyways.

I made it to around high 1400's~low 1500's (I didn't write it down and have dropped since) and then decided I didn't want to keep using these mons.

EDIT: Here's my current score with games played on the account.
1545402767896.png


I played with all 3 mons this week and came to a few conclusions, namely:

Virizion chews some serious ass, but for some reason I love using it. It's the mon I played with the most.

Let's start with its stats and typing. Verizon shares a pretty good speed tier with the other Swords and this lets it's Z-Lure sets shine, as few checks or counters to this mon are naturally faster than it. It has mediocre attacking stats which are augmented by access to boosting moves, and its special bulk is not to be slept on. It goes down in approx. one hit from a large portion of unresisted physical moves, however.

Grass/Fighting is... underwhelming offensively and pretty nice defensively. Grass type attacks are basically reserved to hit bulky water and ground types and not much else, which means the heavy lifting gets done by Fighting moves or coverage. However, it's resistances give it a good time vs a significant chunk of meta attackers, Ground Rock and Dark moves in particular.

Verizon has a surprising amount of options when it comes to sets, which was a pleasant surprise. Good STAB moves in Leaf Blade, Energy Ball, CC, Focus Blast and access to Swords Dance and Calm Mind give it versatility, it can carry Synthesis and Taunt, and it's coverage gives it a good time VS pokemon that switch in on it. Some of the sets below are ones I either tested or theorymonned.

The meat to beat here is the set I tested the most and enjoyed the most - DUAL SCREENS!! Access to Light Screen and Reflect had me curious, and after playing with it I really was digging it.

Code: 
Screens (Virizion) @ Light Clay
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Sacred Sword / Close Combat / Leaf Blade
- Synthesis / Leaf Blade

It's typing and Special bulk gave me a lot of chances to switch in, Synthesis ensured I was healthy enough to reset screen a few times, and Sacred Sword was a good attacking move with no real drawbacks, as this set wasn't going to be doing damage anyways. Unless you switch into a dark type move. EZ MONEY.

I put it on a team with a few setup sweepers and had some fun - Here are a few replays:
Verizon cleans the game up
I lost to pif in a room tour but it was the first time I played vs him so here ya go
Same room tour but an earlier battle
Cash and I giving each other the works
Long story short I dig it and will probably never be using it again, but not for lack of want.

Calm Mind sets are nice. I didn't play much with it but here's a replay of it fucking shit up. Virizion has this issue where it cant stay in vs anything due to it's odd coverage, so most of the games with CM were lackluster performances (EDIT: This game wasn't the one I thought it was, phone doggo actually claims a few here). The best thing CM sets can do is beat steel mons.

I didn't test any SD Sets. We all know what those do - Z lure with Stone Edge or Bounce, or just bopping nerds with Grass or Fight Z move. I think Synthesis and taunt are underrated heat but this boy suffers from the lack of coverage when being offensive (regardless of if Physical or Special) so their lack of use is relatively justified

Here are some sets I theorymonned but never used - I doubt they'll be good. The EV's are all simple because I didn't do any calcs.

Code: 
Block Toxic Rest (Virizion) @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Toxic
- Sacred Sword / Leaf Blade
- Block

Resttalk (Virizion) @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Calm Mind
- Giga Drain / Energy Ball

Not Suicune (Virizion) @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Calm Mind
- Giga Drain / Energy Ball

Ass Vest (Virizion) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- Stone Edge
- Zen Headbutt

Latias is better off without specs.

I won't get into what lati does because I don't think anyone reading this needs a refresher.

Specs Lati just doesn't seem to kill anything better than the other versions. Z move bops, its basically a specs boost, and has access to CM which is a specs boost with some extra bulk tacked on. I think the only thing I saw specs killing better was Heattom, and only offensive Heattom at that.

The set was 252 252 timid BoltBeam STABS.
Replays:
THIS MAN USING GRAVITY STARMIE LOL
Doesn't OHKO Swamp or Toge
The rest of the battles I just ended up sweeping without getting Lati in.

Togekiss is okay at best as a scarfer.

Trick is the best thing about it.

Togekiss has a weird speed tier. I don't think its fast enough to be a scarfer. It's a good surprise factor but there's a reason that NP and defensive are better. I couldn't manage to make it work but that's probably because I'm trash at this game and at teambuilding. It was also the mon I used the least so thats something to consider.

Anyways, this was fun and I am looking forward to doing this again with different mons. LMK if you think I'm an idiot or did something wrong.
 
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I was adding on post throughout the week but when I switched themes or w/e and the draft wasn't here anymore :psycry:

I'll probably edit this one into the fat one w replays and such later but for now I'm just gonna comment on specs latias. I rm someone complaining about utilizing specs latias in the uu room but I can't remember who. The important thing to remember UnbecomingDuck is that they don't know you're specs latias and the extra power/odd coverage moves are how it gets most of its kills. Specs latias does its job pretty well if you don't play it too recklessly/reveal it too early. Like other choice mons, it just requires good prediction. Weakness to pursuit isn't really more a problem for it than other latias sets imho.

E:
468.png

Togekiss @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Aura Sphere / Thunder Wave / Defog
- Trick
- Roost

It seems odd but after playing with multiple teams throughout the week I find that Roost is mandatory on scarf kiss. With togekiss it probably shouldn't be your speed control even with a scarf since aero outspeeds still and trick is the main way one annoys slower squads. Thus, losing the choice scarf and having the option to heal up with Roost is really nice. Aura Sphere is generally the best secondary move since it pressures steels across the board and is nicer to get locked into compared to fire imo. Bisharp tend to stay in, too. Thunder Wave/Defog I ran with the basic max hp max speed spread, though admittingly I didn't spend much time with Defog. Thunder Wave is a fun way to lure things like Aero and remove their precious speed. Makes them pair nicely with the fighting-types. Defog went about as well as you'd a remover weak to rocks goes. Overall, I wouldn't recommend scarf kiss unless you really wanted to build around it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-839436296
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-839629728
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-839632913
380.png

Latias @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Surf / Thunderbolt
- Healing Wish

Specs Latias didn't disappoint. Smacking Steelix with a surf is satisfying asf. The decrease in A-Muk is greatly appreciated. The extra power can make a fair amount of OHKOs and 2OHKOs happen. tldr cool option that hits hard and punishes teams relying on Scizor or Doublade as their steel.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-837968471
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-837470550
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-839386119
640.png

Virizion @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge

Virizion has some neat lure options but I stuck to what I knew/used prior to research week. Being able to nuke steels before toxic on stall, hit scizor quick, etc. is always handy. You probably won't find a good reason to use Virizion if you aren't building around it. It does its job of smashing stall and balances well enough. Obviously, it needs the boost to hit hard with its pitiful attack stat though. Often Virizion can feel like dead weight against more offensive teams, even moreso when running a lure set. Not that I would be against it being ranked on the VR tho :C
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-839363247
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-829676308
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-830963804
I think I peaked in the upper 1500s before tilting :psysad:
 
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I think I peaked at about 1580 and I'm at 1547 after one loss and some decay.
1545580393122.png


Alright so I started out just with Togekiss

Togekiss @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Roost
- Nasty Plot
- Trick

and it was honestly okay. It does basically what you expect it to do, click air slash. I found that trick was dead weight in basically every game unless you get stall or fat. Most of the time tricking just makes Togekiss worthless because there isnt much for you do with an offensive Togekiss without roost.

I actually tried a set with nasty plot and roost, basically just for stall and it actually worked once but I didn't get the replay because I was at work and the guy timed out and I forgot as I was working. So beside very niche matchups Scarfkiss just doesn't do that much. It's still pretty slow and it's entirely luck based so you either get 10 flinches and win or you get 0 and die instantly. I dont really like having that variation while I play so I doubt its something I would use again as anything more than a gimmick. EDIT: adding some more here. I have a good replay where I lost a game because I couldnt para flinch a MegaAlt to death and it swept me. You might say that having ScarfKiss as my only MegaAlt answer is bad team building but you are wrong... anyway scarfkiss is the most straight forward mon ever and it's not fun. It's like Russian roulette trying to flinch things which makes games stressful. Its honestly almost a lazy teambuilding mon because you just send it out when you are in trouble and you pray. It does however do a lot more damage than I thought. It was seriously denting some steel types which suprised me. Maybe a flying stack team would work better but I didnt try that out. I think it's an interesting set though and I think in a tour versus some fat stuff it could really work out. Great surprise factor too so that's a plus. It's really just the luck thing that makes it less fun to use.

I thought Virizion

Virizion @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Energy Ball
- Close Combat
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Filler

was even worse. I tried some offensive set up sets and they basically all were underwhelming. I had the most success with this mixed Z lure set I tried and that has some replays below but even that set was below average. As you can see above UnbecomingDuck blew me back with his screens set and maybe that has a niche somewhere but I never tried it. I can only speak on behalf of the offensive variants and they are all pretty much outclassed by something else. So defensive might be the niche but I didnt test it and I cant build good teams like that anyway. EDIT: gunna write some more actually because I have some time. I thought Viriz being fighting type is a huge bummer. There are so many awesome fighting types in UU and if you use Viriz you basically have to stack weaknesses if you want to use one of the prominent fighting types. On top of that every team has multiple fighting checks so Viriz has a hard time being useful because it just dosent hit hard even after setting up. That was my big struggle while team building with it, that it's pretty weak and basically worse than any other fighting type. It's basically forced to run a Z move if you want it to break which takes up the Z move slot as well.

Overall I dont think either of these mons is particularly good but might have some use in a tour setting where the suprise factor could give you an advantage. Most of the games I was playing I felt like I was winning despite the research mon and not because of them. I almost always thought to myself "wow I would have smashed this guy if I was playing with anything beside Viriz" which sucks because I love to find cool unused stuff so maybe I will be able to find something better in weeks to come.

My final verdict would be Togekiss is a 2.5/5 and Viriz is a 1.5/5 They could be fun to use but it would require a ton of support and effort to make a top team with them.

Here are some replays, none of which are great :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-837812895 - Viriz claims four
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-837989160 - Z Moves one thing
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-837746656 - Room Tour win with Scarfkiss
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-836903686 - Scarfkiss Haxing everything
 
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Alright, I've pretty much run out of time to ladder, but I've gotten enough to give my opinion on the topics.

ended here
53XL4EF.png


I started building with Choice Specs Sleep Talk Latias + Rockium Z Virizion, and from then on I made 4 variants, each with a different Steel-type, as seen below.
1545534765220.png

v3 also has a Choice Scarf Togekiss, which is a nice bonus. I had the most success with versions 3 and 4, and the least with version 1. That team really didn't want to rely on Heattom as the remover.

Honestly, I don't like Choice Specs Latias too much. In 95% of games it was pretty much incapable of clicking Psyshock because i'd lose a fuckton of momentum vs a Steel- or Dark-type if i did so, and Draco Meteor, while strong, still didn't quite hit as hard as I wanted a lot of the time versus stuff like Rotom-Heat (which ended up living at 7% and slow-volting into a Pursuit trapper more than once in my run). It's a good enough wallbreaker and the surprise value can win it games, but it pretty much relies on chunking stuff with Draco to do much of anything. I was unable to fit Thunderbolt because I had Sleep Talk on it, which means this variant of Choice Specs Latias also failed vs. Empoleon.

One thing that does ease prediction, though, is Surf. Having something that can hit Steels pretty hard, still KO Fire-types that stay in, and also prevent Krook from coming in for free is pretty nice for Latias.

I've got some replays of Surf being a nice neutral play and Choice Specs Draco Meteor just letting me nuke stuff:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-839365592 Surfing a Krookodile with a Klefki on the team
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-839366411 Late-game: Latias Dracos through a Nidoking and -2 Dracos through Hydreigon. I'm linking this again in the Virizion section but just gloss over that for now.
Virizion is...weird. As for the positives, it's consistently capable of luring in some Bug-, Fire-, or Flying-type (as well as Decidueye and some Latias variants) with Continental Crush with proper prediction, and it serves well as a soft check to Crawdaunt, Krookodile, and several Ground-types. Its special bulk lets it live a bunch of random stuff like Life Orb Latias's Psychic and Infernape's Fire Blast. Apart from that, however, I encountered a LOT of glaring flaws when using it that really make it a pretty subpar choice for a Fighting-type in my eyes. Its two biggest flaws when using it are that it fuckin sucks as a check to Water-types bc it can't come in on Scald at all and that it is forced out by Scizor at +2. Unlike Cobalion, Virizion is 2HKOed by Scizor's Bullet Punch, meaning that not OHKOing Scizor with +2 Close Combat is a really, really big liability. As some other stuff, Virizion is very weak. +2 Leaf Blade hits about as hard as you'd expect if you were slapped by a single blade of grass, not even OHKOing Hippowdon. Unboosted, it's not capable of dealing enough damage to force out bulky waters, which means that they often get a chance to do whatever or just fish for a burn at least once while you either Leaf Blade for 50 or Swords Dance in their face.

The set I used, SD Z-Stone Edge, also lets Amoonguss in for free, so I had to use Sleep Talk on Latias to compensate.

Here's that replay again, featuring Virizion beating a BoltBeam Latias and then KOing a Klefki while I try to sacrifice it. I didn't save any replays of Virizion failing against Scizor but there are plenty of instances where that happened.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-839366411
Okay, so here's the set I used. I have less experience with this than the other two, so this'll be shorter.
Togekiss @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Trick
- Flamethrower

Really, I found pretty much zero use out of Trick, partially because I never faced stall in my run, so I'm gonna echo Cash's points on that. The Choice Scarf usually didn't make too too big a difference outside of allowing me to sneakily outspeed and flinch down stuff like Moltres and Cobalion when needed and luring in Zeraora and Mega Manectric. One thing I really really like about my time with this, though, is Dazzling Gleam. Having Fairy STAB on Togekiss is super helpful to be honest. It lets Togekiss reliably revenge kill Dark-types, especially Roost Hydreigon, and it also lets Togekiss actually slap Latias for decent damage. Choice Scarf Dazzling Gleam Togekiss is also capable of 2HKOing the aforementioned Manec/Zera switch-ins, which is sick.

It's definitely nowhere near the best Togekiss set, but it puts in work when it needs to.

Here's a replay of Dazzling Gleam easing prediction immensely against a Bisharp team:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-839368677

That's my report for the week! See you again next time I'm free for RW.
 
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