USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V3

[esche]

RE: Feraligatr

I'm on board with Feraligatr rising even further. However, I'm much more convinced for it to rise on grounds of its Agility set than its DD set. The latter functions better with screens but on your standard-ish bulky offensive team Agility has done much more for me than DD could have. Despite Feraligatr's respectable bulk and greatly appreciated natural resistance to Bullet Punch, it doesn't really get the opportunity to DD twice (unless you run screens or Memento support) which leaves it open to be revenge killed (or to be put in range for priority to pick it off) by the most commonly encountered speed control (Mega Aerodactyl, Choice Scarf Krookodile & Choice Scarf Hydreigon). You will also get the jump on less common speed control like Choice Scarf Nihilego and Mega Beedrill by opting for Agility instead of DD. Granted Agility sets still don't get the jump on Choice Scarf variants of Latias, Terrakion and Infernape (unless you run Jolly, but you do kind of need the power Adamant gives you) but outspeeding these is of less importance than the initially listed three (Latias locked in to one move has been unfavourable for a while now because of Pursuit Scizor and Krookodile being everywhere, Terrakion is much more efficiently used as a breaker with a Choice Band equipped due to Bullet Punch cutting any sweeping/cleaning attempts short, and on Infernape more and more people appear to be using the NP set lately, although you'll still encounter Choice Scarf a fair amount of times).

Personally, I'm a big fan of the Dual Dance set because it let's you shred fatter teams, but Agility + 3 attacks set doesn't leave you walled by Slowbro and other bulky waters (which still drop to Liquidation if you set it up right, though). Below you find two replays featuring the Agility set. If I recall correctly, both of these replays feature scenarios in which regular DD wouldn't have just won as the Agility set did. (I swear I have more replays with this team somewhere but I can't find them right now.)

Replay #1
Replay #2

 

[Hilomilo]

Here's our update for this month! Thanks for all the productive discussion we've been able to have this time! As of right now, the plan is to look towards updating the thread again with a smaller amount of changes post-Mimikyu suspect if it ends up staying in the tier, similarly to how we had a mini-update when Zeraora first dropped down. Regardless of that, here are this update's batch of changes:

Changelog

Rises

A- -> A

B+ -> A-

B+ -> A-

B -> B+

B -> B+

B- -> B

B- -> B

C+ -> B

C -> B-

C+ -> B-

C -> C+

C- -> C

UR -> C

UR -> C-

Drops

A- -> B+

B+ -> B

B -> B-

B -> B-

B- -> C+

B- -> C+

B- -> C+

C -> C-

C -> C-

C -> C-

C- -> UR

Rise Reasonings

• Mega Manectric takes advantage of its best switch-ins being rare in favor of shakier Ground-type alternatives like Krookodile and Gligar. Its excellent coverage and Speed allows it to revenge kill a large portion of the tier while being able to work around or significantly chip a lot of its offensive responses, like Hydreigon and Altaria. It very easily generates momentum and currently provides better utility and consistency than the rest of A-.
• Gengar wallbreaks excellently, recently utilizing its vast set of tools to work around a lot of standard counterplay quite well. Ghostium sets blow past Aerodactyl, Scizor, and Gligar while its other options for coverage and utility allow it to put huge pressure on most teams lacking a sturdy special wall. Despite its poor defensive utility, its ability to solidly pick up a few kills in most matchups is worth a rise right now.
• Steelix provides amazing utility and can easily capitalize on its typing in the current meta. It checks a bevy of the tier’s top threats, is both bulky and powerful enough to dent Scizor and force trades with Pokemon like Cobalion and Terrakion, and discourages most Pokemon capable of offensively pressuring it from directly coming in. It’s rare for Steelix to struggle to perform well, and it is certainly on the level of other Steels and Grounds in A-.
• Swampert is another Ground-type with an excellent typing and stats for the current metagame, threatening most relevant hazard removers and setters and pressuring the few that can come in on its STABs with Toxic. It handles the tier’s best Electric-types super well, checks several other threats excellently, and performs more consistently than the rest of B at this stage.
• Volcanion has always been a super scary breaker but also brings pretty awesome utility through its ability to check both Primarina and Scizor while providing Defog if need be. If you can keep hazards off the field and Latias at bay, Volcanion can perform excellently and power through several commonly used checks. B+ most definitely reflects everything it can currently bring.
• Azelf’s place on the metagame’s wildly popular Screens HOs puts it on a more even playing field with Froslass than earlier on, while its other potential sets in Sash + Rocks and Nasty Plot can prove to be solid as well. Its utility on a very solid play style in addition to the other goodies it can currently bring is overall enough for a slight upgrade in rank.
• Roserade is something of a rising star in the metagame, putting in pretty consistent work with its fantastic coverage and access to a fast Sleep Powder. Its offensive potency allows it to swing several games in its team’s favor, while hazard setting sets also have merit due to the several switches it can force. Overall just a great offensive presence that’s continued to perform since its UUPL showing.
• Feraligatr has risen to stardom as a menace of a sweeper and a staple on the tier’s ever-popular Screens builds. Its near-perfect coverage, solid bulk, and power allow it to find easy setup opportunities and a two-subrank rise accurately reflects its current threat level.
• Quagsire and Pyukumuku are both rising a rank to reflect their solid presences on stall, a fairly improved archetype since Quagsire’s drop to C+ months ago. While Quagsire itself is a general staple, Pyukumuku’s rising specially defensive set excels against the vast majority of the tier’s popular stallbreakers, giving both a lot of individual worth.
• Nidoqueen’s recent drop was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, especially considering how well it was able to showcase its utility in UUPL. It has great matchups against several common hazard removers and opposing setters while also being able to answer to several big threats, like Terrakion, Doublade, and most Electric-types. Its value is currently enough to easily put it on the same level as other defensive rockers in Bronzong and Seismitoad.
• Linoone has reached staple status on Screens offense and has overall proven itself as a surprisingly formidable sweeper. It can find a solid amount of setup opportunities and the support it requires to get its job done smoothly is surprisingly accessible. A bit of a rising threat with consistency that is better reflected with an upgrade in rank.
• Xatu and Venomoth are both finding places in the rankings again, starting at C and C- respectively. Xatu is an excellent setter on Screens builds with a lot of nice additional utility, like Magic Bounce, a slower U-turn than Azelf, and solid invested bulk that allows it to do its job fairly reliably. Venomoth has found a slight place for itself as an extremely threatening sweeper with the right support. It has a solid amount of different options for set customization, a surprisingly limited amount of reliable counterplay, and has also seen fair use on dual screens, proving its potency.

Drop Reasonings

• Slowbro is still a great defensive pivot, but its shortcomings are present enough to justify a drop in the current meta. Unlike its mega evolution, it struggles in the Fighting-type matchup a bit, only reliably answering to Cobalion and losing out to Infernape and Terrakion, while its weaker attacks hurt its ability to remain unpassive before popular threats like Altaria and Hydreigon. It’s still great, but is better represented in B+.
• Florges isn’t a clear step ahead of Sylveon anymore, which warrants its drop from B+. Its room for extra utility is still fantastic, though Kommo-o’s departure and Sylveon’s ability to better pass wishes put the two on an even playing field. The influx in several Steel-types and the competition provided by other Fairy-types, like Primarina and Altaria, makes Florges dropping more reasonable than Sylveon rising at this stage.
• Rotom-C encounters a few struggles as it tries doing its job that weren’t as glaring in other iterations of the meta. Gligar’s popularity slightly undermines Rotom’s niche as an Electric-type capable of taking on Ground-types, while it also struggles to combat the presences of Celebi, Amoonguss, Infernape, and any relevant Dragon-type. Struggling to pressure Scizor well as a BP resist is also really troublesome, and right now it’s often too hard to justify over Rotom-H.
• Mega Sceptile has struggled working around Mega Altaria’s recent rise to stardom. It can still take advantage of teams that use Primarina as their Fairy-type pretty well but its opportunity cost and consistency have overall just taken a hit as new meta trends have rolled in.
• Chesnaught’s defensive utility has taken a huge hit as the metagame has slowly but surely developed against its perks. It invites a huge number of terrifying forces in for free, including but not limited to Altaria, Latias, Infernape, and Celebi, and requires Roar to actually take care of boosting Scizor sets. It also faces pretty strong competition from Klekfi and Froslass, which can currently provide much more as Spikes setters.
• Stakataka is an extremely situational Pokemon that usually relies on an advantageous matchup to perform at all. It becomes an increasingly less reliable sweeper as several bulky Ground- and Steel-types receive more exploration, and struggles to provide a clear defensive niche with Mega Steelix, Doublade, and Mega Aggron all giving it fairly massive competition.
• Zygarde-10% still has a lot of merit as a fast breaker but struggles to maintain the same value it had as when Froslass Spikes were at their peak. The high usage of Gligar and Hippowdon hurts it a fair amount, while its lacking defensive utility highly increases its opportunity cost given that roles usually designated to a team’s Dragon or Ground will often need to be found elsewhere.
• Articuno, Aurorus, and Alolan Sandslash are all fairly niche picks in the metagame that are generally harder to justify than the rest of C. Articuno is a very team-specific pick that’s niche on stall is hurt by Empoleon’s decreased presence, while the veil setters compete heavily with both Spikes and Screens archetypes, which often prove more consistent.
• Mandibuzz hasn’t been used since a very early stage in SM and, despite its solid bulk, loses out to a large amount of the tier’s relevant offensive Pokemon and doesn’t provide anything particularly worthwhile. It can check Scizor and use Knock Off, which for now is enough to keep it at C-, but unranking it is certainly a possibility in the near future unless its niche is explored.
• Gastrodon faces pretty severe competition in its role and doesn’t provide anything that isn’t provided by other Water- or Ground-types in addition to much better utility overall. It just lacks a clear niche worth consistently putting it on a team over the available alternatives, which is why it’s losing its rank.

Discussion Points and Rejected Nominations will be covered in the next post. Thanks for reading!

 

[Hilomilo]

Rejected Nominations

Mega Aerodactyl: Stay A+ (nominated to rise)
It’s an excellent glue on offenses that provides key utility in several aspects, though its typing and versatility aren’t up to par with those of the Pokemon currently in S and it will always live under Scizor’s rule. Aerodactyl can also frequently run into issues regarding its moveset, competition for a mega slot, and damage output in a metagame filled to the brim with bulky Steel- and Ground-types, which makes A+ perfectly fine for now.

Togekiss: Stay A (nominated to drop)
The competition Togekiss suffers from Mega Altaria is undeniable but it still brings a lot of its own unique traits that allow it to maintain a great niche. Its Ground-type immunity is extremely valuable as meta trends continue rewarding the likes of Gligar, Hippowdon, and Swampert, while its options for punishing counterplay are much more varied and often more reliable. Its bulky and offensive sets still perform super well, with Thunder Wave emerging as pretty nasty tool at its disposal and Aura Sphere/Fire Blast always being great options for coverage.

Bisharp: Stay A- (nominated to rise)
Bisharp’s AV set has certainly made waves as an excellent option for supporting sweepers like Infernape, though oftentimes it will only reliably accomplish trapping Latias and Celebi, whereas it can struggle in the Togekiss matchup and lose out to several other common special attackers based simply on type disadvantage. As a Steel-type, its shaky matchups against fairies and Pokemon like Scizor, Doublade, and Aerodactyl are also hard to compensate for.

Lucario: Stay B+ (nominated to drop)
The competition Lucario has as an NP sweeper from Infernape definitely burdens it, though it can still prove the better option through its ability to more easily take on Primarina and Altaria, as well as its more powerful STAB Vacuum Wave. The recent exploration of SD sets has also given it more versatility and usage on archetypes like Screens, allowing it to offset its flaws enough to keep its rank.

Discussion Points

Hippowdon B+ -> A- or Gligar A- -> B+ or both
There’s been a decent amount of debate surrounding the topic of Gligar vs. Hippowdon amongst some ranking council members. While Gligar provides Toxic and Ground-type immunities, as well as a Fighting resistance and pivoting capabilities, Hippowdon acts as a sturdier answer to threats like Terrakion, Manectric, and Krookodile and has room for Whirlwind to keep out the many sweepers Gligar can let in. Whether both should be the same rank or one should definitively be above the other is a topic worth exploring.

Cobalion A -> A-
Cobalion’s no stranger to fluctuating ranks, and this time it’s being brought up for a drop to A-. It’s a very strong option for a rocker on several offenses, though it runs into a few awkward shortcomings as a Steel-type, including its lacking reliability against most Dragons, requiring Swords Dance to sturdily check Scizor, and its Fairy-type neutrality. Whether these flaws are enough to drop it to A- is worth debating, especially as Fighting-type competition continues rising.

Suicune B+ -> A-
CroCune has been further explored as a set lately and has benefitted from a decent amount of meta trends, such as Empoleon falling off some, Feraligatr’s surge in usage, and the current use of checking Aerodactyl and bulky rockers. However, it can still be hard to fit and build around, is fairly susceptible to some of the tier’s better wallbreakers and sweepers, and struggles breaking Pokemon like Tentacruel and Blissey even after multiple boosts, which makes whether to rise it or not a tricky topic.

Tentacruel B+ -> A-
Tentacruel provides pretty great compression thanks to its typing and excellent utility movepool. Blanket checking several Fighting-types, Scizor, Feraligatr, and Doublade in addition to pivoting in on Primarina, spinning, and being able to run options like Toxic Spikes, Haze, and Knock Off is super valuable overall. Its shaky physical bulk alongside a lack of recovery holds it back a fair amount, however, often keeping it from consistently checking everything it wants to without Wish support.

Alolan Muk B -> B-
Alolan Muk is a pretty linear Pokemon that is easy to work around on account of its predictability and the rise in several meta trends that harm it, like Screens and Spikes offenses becoming more popular and the steady rise in several Pokemon that easily take advantage of it. It also faces heavy competition with a large amount of popular Pursuit trappers, like Bisharp, Scizor, Aerodactyl, and Krookodile. The utility of reliably walling Celebi is quite nice, however, while the additional utility its ability can provide is also fairly annoying for opposing teams to work around.

Bronzong B- -> B
Bronzong can tend to be a mixed bag, but has the typing, bulk, and ability necessary to take on Altaria, Celebi, non-Knock Off Mamoswine, and several other common Pokemon quite nicely. Its defensive utility is more notable than ever before, though its huge susceptibility to Scizor and Hydreigon and Pursuit weakness still hold it back quite a bit.

Bewear B- -> C+
Bewear has pretty big opportunity cost given the viability of several Fighting-type sweepers with better tools for the metagame. Its ability can also be hard to capitalize on with a lot of physical attackers being able to hit it super effectively or just bypassing its ability altogether. It can still provide a unique niche as a Fighting-type, however, with both CB and SD sets having individual merit and relatively minimal defensive counterplay.

Mantine C+ -> B-
Mantine hasn’t received super significant usage but does have the tools necessary to answer to several large threats in the metagame, checking Infernape and Lucario’s best sets quite well while decently matching up against Scizor, Feraligatr, and several Steel- and Ground-type rockers. This in addition to blanket checking a few solid special attackers has brought it up for a rise, though its Stealth Rock weakness, four-moveslot syndrome, and susceptibility to several other large metagame threats could prevent this.

Metagross C- -> UR
Metagross struggles immensely in a metagame filled to the brim with Steel-types that compete with it. Its defensive niches are better performed by the Steel-type megas, Bronzong, and Doublade, while Scizor, Bisharp, and Cobalion highly compete with it in offensive roles. Choice Band could reasonably carve it a niche, though its sparing overall usage puts fully unranking it into question.

Thanks for reading, and be sure to keep up the solid discussion! I'll do my best to keep everyone updated on the plan regarding Mimikyu's potential unban, so stay tuned for that. Be kind to one another, and happy posting :)

 

[Twilight]

I have no opinion on the rises and drops other than being a bit surprised by Slowbro dropping, but I guess this still reflects its role in the metagame well enough. Anyways I'll just get into my thoughts on the discussion points.

C- -> UR: Agree Honestly just nuke this thing off the VR slate. I genuinely don't know what niche this Pokemon has anymore that another Pokemon just doesn't fulfill better. The only thing I can think of is it being a worse Scizor but has the benefit of having Stealth Rock, even with this there are so many other Steel-types that can fulfill the role of a Stealth Rock user better. I really don't remember the last time I saw one of these used seriously other than low ladder using their Agility sets.

Gligar A- -> B+: Drop Gligar or keep the same Tbh I think the current VR reflects these two fine, but if I have to choose from the option then drop Gligar. Gligar is really overrated for what it can actually achieve imo. While it does check Terrakion, being the biggest reasoning for its surface, it has become an unreliable answer to Mega Aerodactyl and the tiers Electric-types. Mega Aerodactyl commonly running Ice Fang to beat it and Gligar being unable to even touch it outside of a rare Toxic or U-turn out. Mega Manectric carries HP Ice making Gligar a bad answer to it, Zeraroa has coverage in Knock Off and HP Ice too, Rotom-H can WoW and threaten with Overheat after Rocks. This is also made worse with it being reliant on Eviolite in a tier littered with Knock Off users, the biggest one being Krookodile. Imo Gligar is a very bad Stealth Rock user, so this shouldn't be compared with Hippo as I think it is best suited as a Defog user. However, I can't deny Gligar is very easy to incorporate into teams of many types like some HO, BO, Balance, and Stall due to the utility it provides, unlike Hippo who fits best on balance and a few BO teams. It isn't hard to distinguish the clear advantages one has over the other with Hippo checking all the above better but doing a lot of things worse in exchange. If the council wants them both to be the same rank I think this is the best approach else keep it the same, I defo don't think Hippowdon is the Pokemon that should be rising.

Cobalion A -> A-: Disagree Imo Cobalion is in a very good spot right now to warrant dropping it. After the loss of Kommo-o this Pokemon has become a lot better now that it is no longer being overshadowed by it. Cobalion finds itself as a dominant Stealth Rock user on many BO and HO teams alike due to the utility it can provide. Don't get me wrong, Cobalion is weak as fck and I won't deny that but it makes up for it for all the utility it brings to a team. Cobalion provides so much for these teams in setting Stealth Rock and being able to check Pokemon like Scizor and Bisharp while still having some breaking potential with Swords Dance. However, I think people should really explore more with this Pokemon as I think sets constituting of Volt Switch and/or Stone Edge are great utility for it. Cobalion invites in a lot of things like Amoonguss, Tentacruel, and Slowbro which it can easily generate momentum on for its team while Stone Edge is a nice lure for Moltres and base form Altaria. While it struggles a lot with some meta trends in Doublade and Gligar, it has ways around them. Gligar simply loses to a Cobalion that gets to +4 which is not hard for it to do and not to mention it can still run Steelium Z to break past it and Amoonguss. Calm Mind variants with Volt Switch and Hidden Power Ice punish them both respectively. I think there are a lot more options people should look to explore like pinch berries, Expert Belt etc. and believe Cobalion is fine where it is.

Tentacruel B+ -> A-: Disagree Tentacruel is a good Mon for the reasons mentioned of major role compression and providing useful resistances. It can provide hazard removal in Rapid Spin or use utility moves in Knock Off, Haze, and Toxic Spikes. Provide a strong answer to Fighting-types like Cobalion and Infernape and check other stuff like Scizor and Primarina. And I think the main problem is it tries to achieve all this when it doesn't have the bulk and recovery to do so. It is extremely easy to overwhelm Tentacruel due to it having to switch into hazards to remove them, especially when it can't stay in on Stealth Rock users like Mega Steelix, EQ Aggron, and Hippowdon. While they have to risk a Scald losing HP on Tentacruel is just not worth it to ever risking staying in on them unless in range. It wants to check so much, but it is extremely easy to break past it due to the reliance on Black Sludge. It can't even check Scizor reliably without fishing for the Scald burn and takes a ton from CB U-turn, likewise, Primarina does a hefty chunk to it and can almost KO with Psychic. It also has an incredibly bad 4MSS meaning it can't risk dropping Sludge Bomb most of the time else it loses to Fairy-types and if you drop Haze then you lose to Lucario and Cobalion unless you can fish the Scald burn, though both can run specially offensive sets on them. If it wants to achieve all this it becomes heavily reliant on support in Wish to consistently do so. Threats like Latias, Celebi, and Mega Manectric are still potent and take advantage of its passivity and necessity to provide so much for a team. For these reasons I don't think Tenta should rise.

Bronzong B- -> B: Disagree I think Bronzong is pretty good tbh with it checking Malt, Celebi, Latias, and Nidoking. The latter being a huge advantage for a Steel-type, however, it has quite a few issues. The way Bronzong deals with these Pokemon is very predictable as it is extremely reliant on Toxic + Protect stalling. In most cases, it can't even carry Gyro Ball and is dependent on Leftovers for recovery. Its passivity and inability to pressure threats like Hydreigon, Bisharp, and Doublade makes it very easy to take advantage of imo. It also hates the number of Pursuit users absolutely hindering its ability to check stuff, a big one being Scizor. Scizor is a Steel-type Bronzong can't check as Pursuit does too much and U-turn does a big chunk to it. Krookodile is also prevalent as ever and fears nothing bar a Toxic, which Taunt variants can shut down and set Stealth Rock on. Again I like Bronzong and think it's okay, maybe the niche of it checking another target or two warrants it rising but for me, I'm not too sold on it.

Mantine C+ -> B-: Agree I think Mantine is pretty decent on the few balance teams it can fit on due to how much utility it can provide by virtue of its movepool and typing. Unlike Tentacruel this has access to Roost to at least stay healthy for a longer period of time which is a big thing. It can also beat other Pokemon like Mamoswine and Nidoking which are two of the most annoying Pokemon to switch into due to their sheer power. It can still check almost every Fighting-type bar Terrakion and pretty much always beat Scizor. The one downside is it being a Defog user that is weak to rocks. While this is inherent in other Pokemon Mantine is also susceptible to status too, which hinders it a lot. However, while this is a big drawback I think it is deserving of a spot alongside the other B- Pokemon.

I don't have much of an opinion on the other Pokemon, but yeah these are my thoughts and interested what everyone else has to say ^_^

 

[Smallsmallrose]

Hippo vs Gligar: Same rank, both at B+
Hippo vs Gligar always gets interesting because it really depends on the flavor of Terrakion prevalent at the time. As Rockium Z Terrakion gets popular, Hippo gets more popular until Terrakion starts running fight Z for Hippo, in which case Gligar gets more popular. I would say Gligar is a more superior option overall since it also handles band sets with efficiency. With Hippo you'll probably need a secondary check for Fight-Z Terrak and Banded Terrak's CC, but Gligar pressures you to have a backup electric answer with it's mediocre Manectric matchup. Gligar is resilient to toxic but Hippo handles knock off users better. Any one thing that Gligar or Hippo falters in the other does better, making this quite a debate, I do think They should be the same rank for this very reason. They both outclass eachother in many departments. No matter which one of these bulky grounds you pick, you'll be missing out on major aspects of the other one that will usually require you to run specific support to fill in those holes anyway. I never feel safe having either one as my sole Terrakion check due to both of them losing to the Z variant the other beats, and in genereral whenever I use one, I often find myself wishing I was running the other one instead. Be it seeing Aero or Mane at team preview when I'm using Gligar, seeing strong fighting types when I'm using Hippo, so on and so forth. These two should be the same rank because they provide very notable traits over eachother, and often cover up the exact flaws the other one has, making which one you use entirely up to the teammates it's used with and overall builder preference.

Cobalion A -> A-: On the fence, leaning toward Agree.
Cobalion has been in an awkward position for a long time, Being the Nidoqueen to Terrakion's Nidoking. It provides a fair amount of defensive utility and support for the team, but usually having very underwhelming offensive presence by comparison. Cobalion is never going to break a team worth it's salt these days because it's checks are very interchangeable with Terrakion and Scizor's, two pokemon that nearly every team should be prepared for at all times. The Calm mind set is an interesting spin on it but I personally find it underwhelming compared to similar special boosting fightings like Infernape and Lucario. It does have some of it's own utility like rocky helmet to punish U-turns effectively and Volt Switch for momentum, but Cobalion is one of those pokemon that often finds itself being unable to do anything within a game offensively, just doing what it can to check what it needs to check and watching the game pass by as that freaking Hippo or bulky water or whatever's walling it comes in on it for the 58th time after it comes in on the opposing Scizor, really just reducing the game to a cat and mouse with the things it needs to check, and the things that check it.

Suicune B+ -> A-: Agree.
Suicune is a rising star in this meta. Crocune can provide impressive defensive utility to a team by checking a slew of physical attackers, while the Vincune variant can circumvent teams with lazy water checks like Amoonguss or Non-Roar Empoleon. It struggles with being setup fodder for other calm-minders like Latias and the dominant dragon dance Mega Altaria, but it does fantastic in many other matchups. The way it completely dominates certain matchups outweighs how underwhelming it can be in others. And even in games where one of it's bigger checks is harassing it, it still usually has something to do and can potentially take the lategame.

Tentacruel B+ -> A-: Disagree.
Its lack of recovery bogs it down, making it struggle to check everything it wants to. Pokemon that it checks somewhat well like Cobalion, Scizor, Primarina, etc. can all also smack through it with the right coverage move, or over time since it can't recover outside of Black Sludge. It provides a lot of utility in one slot and can blanket check many things, but it doesn't do so reliably enough that it would warrant A- in my eyes.

Alolan Muk B -> B-: Agree.
Muk is a matchup fishing pokemon at it's finest. It goes above and beyond, being an amazing check to pokemon like Hoopa, Chandelure, Gengar, and even the super dominant Celebi and Latias. But it can be a total slog against matchups lacking these strong psychic and ghost types, and severely struggle against tier staples like Krookodile and Terrakion. I'd use it only on teams otherwise super weak to the specific mons it excels against, but it'd have to be to such a degree that it's worth having in matchups where it's underwhelming. There are many pokemon that I consider to be matchup fishing pokemon in UU, but unlike good ones like Suicune, Muk has little to do against teams that are stacked well against it.

Bronzong B- -> B : Agree.
Bronzong is fantastic right now. Having a better Celebi and Nidoking matchup than a lot of common balance pokemon already pops out at first glance, but it's solid matchup against most Latias and Mega Altaria sets pops out even more. Being able to potentially slot stealth rock as well makes it a boon to many teams. It struggles with pursuit, but with the main two pursuit users that threaten Bronzong (Scizor and Krook) usually being choiced on their pursuit sets, Bronzong can circumvent this with protect. Bronzong teams with wish support can also use colbur berry to be even safer against pursuit users and even let it take on Knock Off Mamoswine to a degree. Bronzong makes it's faults look mediocre in comparison to how much it can do in one slot, it's an incredibly fantastic choice for the current metagame.

Bewear B- -> C+: Disagree.
I've been using Bewear a decent amount lately and it's role in the metagame is interesting. Being a massive physical wall with fluffy lets it easily check a slew of physical attacking pokemon like Aerodactyl-Mega, Crawdaunt, Bisharp, Sharpedo-Mega, certain Scizors, etc. It also has impressive attack that can break many defensive cores with swords dance or choice band. What makes Bewear interesting is not it's power or bulk on it's own, but as a unit. What sets it aside from fighting breakers like Terrakion or Heracross that outclass it in the breaking department is that Bewear provides defensive utility, but what sets it aside from fightings with defensive utility like Cobalion and Chesnaught is it's superior breaking power over them. Bewear stands on almost a perfect midground between defensive utility and raw power, not quite being the best at either, but doing the combination of them so well that I sometimes find it easier to slot onto a team than pokemon like Terrakion or Chesnaught that only does one well. Its a fine alternative to stronger fighting breakers for bulkier teams that just need sliver more defensive utility than what something like Heracross or Terrakion provides.

Mantine C+ -> B- : Agree.
Mantine is downright fantastic in the meta. It's Stealth Rock Weakness is a mediocre flaw at best since Mantine beats such a massive slew of the common ground and steel rockers anyway. And it's defensive utility is top notch, checking Pokemon like Scizor and Feraligatr better than alternative bulky waters with it's combination of haze and reliable recovery, as well as performing fantastically against various special attackers like Nidoking and Gengar that can otherwise trouble the balances you'd see Mantine on. Combine this with the ability to defog and it's convenient water immunity and you have an impressively underrated choice right now.

Metagross C- -> UR: Agree.
Metagross tries to manifest the roles of every other steel type in UU into one pokemon while being massively outperformed in those roles by those steels. Choice Band is it's only notable niche that doesn't make it feel super situational or like you're running a worse version of X/Y/Z Steel. Other than that, it's only really good for like....It's specific combination of Stealth Rock and Pursuit while being super resilient to Celebi, but honestly at that point I'd rather just split a pursuiter and Bronzong into two slots rather than run this in that singular slot. The band set is hardly justifiable to stay ranked for, while any other niches it feels feel very Forretress-y (i.e. trying to role compress multiple very specific roles into one slot because of lazy/poor teambuilding) And Forretress got unranked ages ago. So this should join it in the shadow realm of unranked.

And here's one more little nom of my own.

Palossand to C+, maybe even B-
You can't talk about Gligar/Hippo wars without bringing up the awkward middle child, aka the midground of the 2 Palossand. It has an underwhelming Gengar matchup compared to either Hippo or Gligar, as well as being the worst off against Krook out of the 3, having neither U-turn nor Whirlwind to avoid being setup food can be annoying too, HOWEVER, it's ability to check most Terrakion sets (Something Neither Hippo nor Gligar can completely boast) While being better at taking Electrics than Gligar and Taking Aerodactyl-Mega arguably the best of the 3 (Even Hippo doesn't like Aqua Tail variants) makes me wonder why its not a part of this Gligar/Hippo war. Its a fantastic middle option for teams unsure whether to pick Gligar or Hippo and honestly grossly underrated in this role. It can circumvent it's weakness to darks with colbur if needed (And not lose out on TOO much) And it's ghost type overall can make it a boon against fightings of the tier, especially since they don't tack Palossand with any 4x weaknesses that would be easy for many things it checks to target. It outperforms a lot of C and should 100% be ranked closer to it's competition in Gligar and Hippo, especially since it provides some of both their best traits in a meta where its tough to pick between them.

 

[prikshit]

Cobalion A -> A-
Cobalion’s no stranger to fluctuating ranks, and this time it’s being brought up for a drop to A-. It’s a very strong option for a rocker on several offenses, though it runs into a few awkward shortcomings as a Steel-type, including its lacking reliability against most Dragons, requiring Swords Dance to sturdily check Scizor, and its Fairy-type neutrality. Whether these flaws are enough to drop it to A- is worth debating, especially as Fighting-type competition continues rising.

Cobalion A -> A-: On the fence, leaning toward Agree.
Cobalion has been in an awkward position for a long time, Being the Nidoqueen to Terrakion's Nidoking. It provides a fair amount of defensive utility and support for the team, but usually having very underwhelming offensive presence by comparison. Cobalion is never going to break a team worth it's salt these days because it's checks are very interchangeable with Terrakion and Scizor's, two pokemon that nearly every team should be prepared for at all times. The Calm mind set is an interesting spin on it but I personally find it underwhelming compared to similar special boosting fightings like Infernape and Lucario. It does have some of it's own utility like rocky helmet to punish U-turns effectively and Volt Switch for momentum, but Cobalion is one of those pokemon that often finds itself being unable to do anything within a game offensively, just doing what it can to check what it needs to check and watching the game pass by as that freaking Hippo comes in on it for the 58th time after it comes in on the opposing Scizor, really just reducing the game to a cat and mouse with the things it needs to check, and the things that check it.

Hello I Would Like To Comment On The Proposal Raised Regarding Cobalion And Would Like To Use These Fine Points Raised By The Above Users To Reference My Passion Of How Bad This Boy Is In The Underused.

As I Have Made Clear, I Believe Cobalion Is Not A Good Pokemon. It Is Simply Garbage Straight From Trash Can. I Do Not Believe The Current A Rank Reflects The True Nature Of This Beast And Believe A Drop Down To A- Or Even B+ Would Be Better.

The Only Thing I Will Admit To The Truth Is That Cobalion Has An Acceptable To Above Average Defensive Typing. The Coveted Steel Type Is a Fine Characteristic In The Tier Which Many Pokemon Would Envy To Attain In Their Self.

However, One Must Ask Themselves Why Exactly This Boy Would Be Used Above The Competition. As A Defensive Steel Type, It Does Not Check Much Else That It's Better Steel Comrades In The Tier Do. What Advantages Does This Truly Have? You Can Make A Passable Pivot Out Of This Trash With Rocky Helmet And Punish A Couple Of Non Trashes Such As Scizor... But Outside It Then It Finds The Presence On The Team Redundant. In My Experience In High ELO Play Laddering, I Would Only Envisage This Being Usable On Offence/Bulky Offence Teams As A Stealth Rocks Abuser And Not Much Else. It Is Simply Outclassed For Most Of Its Existence By Much Less Sewage.

Firstly, It Hits Like A Mash Potato And No Team Is Seriously Going To Be Hurt By This. Swords Dance May Upgrade The Noodle Attack To Passable Levels But The Problem Is So Many Teams Are Prepared For Bigger Beasts Such As It's Donkey Cohort Terrakion And Scizor, That Cobalion Has No Hope In Breaking Past These. It Has No Recovery To Expand It's Defensive Niche So It Will Nearly Always Die Without Doing Much Of Considering In The Battle. Terrakion And Krookodile Are Simple Better Offensive Stealth Rock Setters... Terrakion Can Muscle Past Strong Walls A Lot Better And Krookodile In My Esteemed Opinion Has More Utility With Intimidate, Pursuit Trapping Broken Beasts Such As Latias, And Being Immune To The Volt Switch...

Please... Drop This Almost Useless Boy Where It Belongs Or Just Let It Drop To RarelyUsed Where It Very More Belongs... I Will Next Comment On Gligar Who I Similarly Believe Has Criminal Popularity...

(Picture Is For LOLs :) )

 

[SacredLatias]

There are a few things I'd like to point out with this post, though it does have some good opinions in there.

Moltres rly shouldnt fall, as spinning/defog is quite common/viable in the tier. Some examples include heatom florges and gligar. Especially with the florges example, moltres brings such useful utility in being one of the most reliable stops to scizor in the UU metagame. That in of itself warrants it a solid spot in the meta, along with its potential to cause big damage to teams with its offensive sets. All in all, moltres has quite a few amazing traits that make it worth keeping in A-.

*brief nitpick, hydrei should never be life orb*

Lax is another questionable pick, as physical breakers in the tier will continue to bust through lax quite easily.

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. +1 188 HP / 128 Def Snorlax: 464-548 (91.3 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. +1 188 HP / 128 Def Snorlax: 464-548 (91.3 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 152 Def Snorlax: 332-392 (63.3 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

Also, it does next to no damage to its checks.

+6 0 Atk Snorlax Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 224-264 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 0 Atk Snorlax Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 166-196 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

Point here is, Snorlax is not worth slotting as it'll end up letting in very dangerous pokemon.

Thats all I have to say fr now, hope you use this info well!

 

[Hilomilo]

Hey all! Just letting you know that the ranking council has come to the decision that Mimikyu will start at A-. This is a decision we're aware is subject to some controversy, since opinions on this pokemon have really been all over the place, though the utility Mimikyu can provide to offenses is often extremely valuable. Its typing and Disguise allow it to function as a fantastic revenge killer in emergency situations in addition to bolstering its reliability as a spinblocker, giving it great value on the tier's already successful Spikes offenses. Its vulnerability to Scizor, struggles breaking various bulky Pokemon, and shaky Speed tier are all certainly notable flaws that work against it a fair amount, though through its unique set of tools it can provide a unique yet consistent and fantastic niche for the teams it fits best on. It also appreciates a metagame full of Dragon- and Dark-types it can pressure as well as offensive archetypes it fits super well on, like Spikes and Screens.

Mimikyu's ranking is of course subject to change in the future as it further settles into the meta, so feel free to discuss it, but let's also stay on track with our current slate and any other noms that have come up since the last update since Mimikyu is only one Pokemon of many to currently talk about. Thanks for reading, be kind, and happy posting! :)

 

[Moutemoute]

and any changes you agree on? Because opinions help me a lot.

You should translate your nomination in english because Smogon's player are not fluent in spanish.

 

[scorbunnys]

You should translate your nomination in english because Smogon's player are not fluent in spanish.

ok, thanks

 

[The Amphy]

Time for my first post.

Rotom-H: A- to A

I've always felt that this mon's been ranked too low ever since it first rose to stardom after USUM gifted it defog. Although that might just be my personal bias as I adore this sentient oven. I'll base my arguments on three factors - its splashability, utility and general level of annoyance.

Rotom-H brings a lot of utility to the bulky offenses and balance teams it often finds itself on. Being a check to dangerous mons such as the birds (Togekiss, Moltres and Bird Jesus), Mamoswine, Scizor and Mega Manectric to name a few and also being a solid defogger. Especially against spikes builds as it beats all relevant spikers. What I like to get at with this is just how splashable and easy this mon is to fit on these teams. It's been consistently getting high usage for a while now. It's also part of one of the more consistent balance/fire-water-grass cores of Rotom-H+Primarina+Amoonguss which I've been abusing for almost a year. Just throw on a Steel-type, some speed control and a stallbreaker and you're pretty much good to go.

It's important to acknowledge that Rotom is more of a check and not a counter and should therefore be played as one. It's a fast defensive pivot and not a wall. This is also why it fits so well on balance teams. You afford to run backup checks such as Empoleon for birds, the aforementioned Amoonguss for Scizor (you should always have two Scizor checks) and a ground-type for Manectric so that Rotom doesn't have to counter everything on its own. These mons fit naturally on the teams Rotom finds itself on so you rarely find yourself building around Rotom. It just fits on the team, like a mitten.

The last point I'd like to get at is how annoying Rotom is to deal with at times. Through the combination of Overheat+Volt Switch+Toxic the only mons in the A's and S ranks that deals with it is Gligar which can't hurt it if it's the U-turn set and refresh/facade Altaria which just gets volt switched on. This means Rotom pretty much always puts in work in any match either by spreading status, generating momentum or ridding the field of hazards. This is not to say Rotom beats the rest, but it annoys them. Due to often forcing in dragons and grounds to deal with its stabs i'd also like to consider it one of the better status abusers of the tier.

I'm not gonna deny though that it isn't annoying to have a rocks weak defogger at times and it's pretty useless against builds with the rarer Swampert/Rhyperior except Toxicing them. Though this isn't a big enough negative to all the boons it has and therefore I think it should rise to A.


some replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-949010023
Rotom limits Froslass to just one spike, manages to defog against Mimikyu due to a lucky burn and sticks around til the end to revenge Scizor.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-947510251
Rotom dances around his team throughout the entire game spreading status, grabbing momentum and keeping his Mega Aggron from getting up rocks. I only lose it due to misplaying twice against his Krook.

 

[Adaam]

Nido(slay)queen should be the same rank as Nidoking at this point. Her extra bulk is extremely useful and let’s her 1v1 a lot of Pokémon that Nidoking can’t, like Aero and Hydreigon. The meta is also a lot less crowded around that awkward base 80 speed tier, so the loss of speed isn’t as bad as it was when Chandelure and co were relevant. The big ones you miss are Togekiss (sucks for a Poison-type) and Mamoswine, but you make up for it by the plethora of faster Pokémon you can live a hit from. That being said, don't defensive Nidoqueen in any form it is garbage.

It’s also about time Gligar drops from the A ranks. I think faded love said it best one time when he said Gligar is a pretend Pokémon. You pretend to have a Ground immunity when you still lose to every Ground type and hate Krook Knock Off. You have a Fighting resist that drops to every +2 Fighting type. You have an Electric immunity 2HKOd and outsped by Mega Manectric. But it gets Defog and Uturn so ig people still use this? Imo I’d drop it to B/B- as its good on defensive teams, especially paired with Quagsire but I see next to no reason to use this otherwise. Hippo on the other hand is a fantastic Ground-type that sits all over Manectric, Aero, lives +2 hits from Terrak/Coba, and has WW to avoid being fodder to everything. It for sure belongs in A-

 

[spuds4ever]

I disagree with rotom-h rising. I've never found it to be a good defogger, its niche is in being a splashable glue mon that can check a bunch of prominent things while not being a momentum sinkhole necessarily and that is its best use. When trying to make it your defogger on top of that, I find it has way too much to do to really make a lasting impact on the game given its lack of recovery. Part of the reason it's a bad defogger is that it just loses to toxic which is a big deal compared to the other premier defoggers in the tier gligar and empoleon who are immune to it. The SR weakness is a biggie as well because if you're running defog, you're not going to have room for painsplit so you can't afford to take 25% every time you want to come in to do your job, particularly when the things you're supposed to check are often just clicking u-turn and volt switch on you (mega mane, scizor). Furthermore, while it does check a lot, it checks these things badly, i.e. Moltres can 2hko you with rocks up if it uses its Z, QA sciz gives you problems and even talonflame can OHKO you at +2 if rocks are up not to mention that its typing and ability which are perfect for checking mega alt are wasted because the majority run refresh or facade these days. I find rotom's best use is actually as a secondary scizor check and as trick scarf speed control on more passive teams.

TL;DR, Keep Rotom-H A- as it rarely excels because it is pressured by so many factors that stop it doing its job (SR, lack of recovery, vulnerability to toxic and water moves which are common on rockers). It's an objectively worse defogger than certainly gligar and probably emp as well. Being a decent glue mon but a bad defogger is not a good enough niche to put you in A imo.

 

[justdrew]

Going to give my quick thoughts on Suicune since I’ve been using it a lot with success. Suicune has always been good but it’s just gone through phases where it’s slept on. The reason Cune should rise a rank is because when Latias and Mega Altaria became more prominent, Steel-types became very good and rose in usage to counteract the centralization they brought to the meta. With Electrium Z Lati losing usage and Malt predominately not having EQ, Mega Aggron, Doublade, and Scizor have become very solid checks and solid partners with Cune. Suicune requires less support now and has a lot of utility in a meta where it’s only threatening switch in is Celebi. Tentacruel and Empoleon stunt its sweep but that’s hardly an issue. Pressure alone makes Suicune a threat versus Balance builds and with stall being quite good in the meta, I am loving Suicune. Scizor is just as good as it’s ever been and Suicune is a phenomenal answer to it. Waterium Z CroCune can literally not be punished by Knock Off or Toxic making it an amazing pivot. 100% agree with Suicune rising to A-.

 

[Smallsmallrose]

I got a fun little nom for the lot of ya since the VR has slowed to a crawl

Barbaracle to C+
I've been testing this on screens as a Feraligatr alternative, and while not as good as the Gator overall, it has some notable niches. Mainly Shell Smash granting it more immediate speed and power in trade for some bulk offered by Feraligatr. In addition, Grass Knot and Rockium Z can give it more edge against Quagsire and Pyukumuku respectively, when the aforementioned unaware users would just stonewall Feraligatr. Access to Z moves when Feraligatr needs Life Orb and a customizable 4th moveslot (Not just for Grass Knot even, it has tons of other 4th moveslot options in it's surprisingly extensive movepool) can make it a very interesting niche pick over the rising star that trades the perks of the pure water typing for more raw unopposed breaking power. I think being 2 subranks under Feraligatr would reflect this potential role as an alternative choice for screens.

 

[Taptricity]

Hello once again. Here to provide nominations you may/may not care about. I’m certain these all will still apply to these mons after this godawful suspect so here we go.

Amoonguss to A

Amoonguss is fantastic in this metagame and keeping it in A- is a massive understatement of this Pokémon. Amoonguss does everything and blankets any Pokémon that you require it to handle. It even warps the metagame to a certain extent due to specific Sleep tactics to undermine its Spore, be it Natural Cure or not. There’s also no denying that Amoonguss is annoying as all hell to kill and requires careful prediction against it if you want to beat it. It usually comes down to trying to overwhelm Amoonguss with multiple offensive Pokémon which isn’t an ideal situation given the aforementioned prediction. Overall place this mushroom higher in the vr, it’s honestly been the most necessary rise in a long time imo.

Rhyperior to B+

Ok I’m gonna be completely honest here when I say that I think Rhyperior is currently in a really good spot right now. It’s a Ground-type that beats Mega Manectric which is always a plus in my book, and currently it does a tremendous job at punishing Defoggers. I’ve noticed that Swords Dance is starting to gain traction which means it’s a powerhouse that’s also beating Gligar with the extra Attack boost. Just what I especially like about Rhyperior, is that it’s a rocker that packs lots of defensive utility while not being a momentum suck because of its raw power. It’s definitely not a perfect Pokémon, but it has a defined niche in the metagame and alongside synergizing well with top mons, I think a rise is in order.

Shaymin to C

Shaymin was hyped for a small period, and now it’s just give or take to say the least. I still think that this Pokémon is a step above Porygon2, given that Shaymin is a little easier to build around, outspeeding base 90-99 Scarfers is very ideal to prevent Krookodile and Hydreigon from chipping you, and Seed Flare’s RNG factor can allow Shaymin to beat out mons that theoretically wall it, but the constraints and overall weakness that Shaymin exhibits even in the late-game shows that it’s nothing more than a niche omnibooster. Not only that, but I simply don’t think that Shaymin is on par with the likes of Stakataka and Salazzle to say the least. It has a specific niche but that doesn’t mean it’s niche is valuable by any means when it feels more like a crutch the second you begin building around Shaymin.

Some other noms that I agree with because I always come up with a batch of three original ones:

Tentacruel staying B+

Gotta piggyback this nomination here by saying that Tentacruel is splashable and nothing more. If anything I could also define it with Gligar that it’s also a “pretend mon.” It pretends to check Scizor, Mega Altaria, Primarina, Cobalion, Infernape, and Doublade to name a few when it can just as easily be overwhelmed by most of these Pokémon and fall flat on its ass. It’s utility and it somewhat sucks at utility, but since it can give the impression that it blanket checks quite a bit of the metagame on its own, it sees itself on teams for this innate abiltiy and not because it’s amazing at any specific role. Keep it B+, it works for what it’s worth but Tentacruel isn’t spectacular in any way.

Nidoqueen to B

Yes I love and support Nidoqueen a lot. It’s a severely underrated Pokémon currently and offensive sets have taken off really well allowing it to outdamage Nidoking while still having some bulk behind it. Don’t have much to say after this but I can add that it also does relatively well against VoltTurn combinations and shutting them down.

Alolan Muk to B-

It’s an awful, matchup dependent Pokémon where if your opponent isn’t carrying Latias or Celebi, you’re better off just ditching this Pokémon. Feels like a waste of a slot most of the time and would rather leave the job of Pursuit trapping to other Dark-types like Krookodile and Bisharp for their offensive utility.

Mantine to B-

Mantine’s hard to place on a team, but it offers a string of positives if you can fit it on your team. It beats some of the tiers most current rockers currently while being a fine check to Scizor, Primarina, and Infernape. It’s not a fantastic Pokémon but it’s excellent at what it accomplishes.

Barbaracle to C+

I made this nomination a couple months ago so I’m just going to briefly touch up on what’s been said. It’s an interesting and powerful Screens abuser whose niche over Feraligatr is having a stronger Stall matchup as opposed to using both Feraligatr and Linoone on the same Screens in order to stop the bulky archetype. Also to address another post, Barbaracle and Mega Aerodactyl are in no way comparable to each other and shouldn’t be used so. Barbaracle is a Shell Smash sweeper albeit quite matchup dependent while Mega Aerodactyl is one of the tier’s most frightening revenge killers who punishes weakened Pokémon with ease. There is nothing about these two Pokémon that are comparable in any way.


Anyway, this concludes my nominations.

tl;dr
Raise Amoonguss, Raise Rhyp, Drop Shaymin, Keep Tenta where it’s at, We stan for all the Nidoqueens, Alolan Muk fucking sucks, Raise Mantine, and raise Barb

 

[sanguine]

Tentacruel staying B+

Gotta piggyback this nomination here by saying that Tentacruel is splashable and nothing more. If anything I could also define it with Gligar that it’s also a “pretend mon.” It pretends to check Scizor, Mega Altaria, Primarina, Cobalion, Infernape, and Doublade to name a few when it can just as easily be overwhelmed by most of these Pokémon and fall flat on its ass. It’s utility and it somewhat sucks at utility, but since it can give the impression that it blanket checks quite a bit of the metagame on its own, it sees itself on teams for this innate abiltiy and not because it’s amazing at any specific role. Keep it B+, it works for what it’s worth but Tentacruel isn’t spectacular in any way.

I don’t think you can really classify this as a “Pretend Pokémon” when Tentacruel really does check these threats if the team needs it to. It’s a solid offensive check to Primarina and Altaria if Sludge Wave, shuts down all Infernape sets outside of like Scarf EQ or SD Thunder Punch (wbk these aren’t sets let’s be real), checks Sciz in that it can always deny boosts from full if facing more offensive SD sets and forces the Scizor player to generally switch out in fear of burn if it’s a fatter SD set. In addition to checking these threats, its EV spread can be easily be customized depending on the team around it and the threats it needs to check (i.e 36 speed if Rotom/Mamo/Nidoking etc are covered and you want a sturdier utility mon, 16+ Speed if you want to check Mamoswine and positive base 70s but have nidoking and the others in the 80-85 speed tier covered, 144+ Speed if you need to check all of those mentioned above at the cost of needing to play smarter with HP etc.) It can check all these top metagame threats while still providing good utility in Rapid Spin and potential Scald burns. Tentacruel does indeed require smart play, intensive resource management, and some amount of team support, yes. It is not perfect by any means, but the good matchup spread against top threats in addition to the hazard removing it can provide in a meta that frankly has garbage hazard removers make it deserving of A-, possibly A in my eyes.

 

[esche]

bored at work so

i kinda want to agree with tenta from b+ to a- but im not entirely convinced

you dont find role compression of the sort tenta offers in uu period. its unrivaled utility (spin knock off tspikes haze) coupled with amazing typing makes it an absolute travesty that rn tenta resides in the same rank as starmie (which is utter dogshit btw). poison type obviously is amazing on a dedicated hazard removal mon to absorb tspikes and its ability clear body conveniently helps its mu vs webs too. moreover tentacruel is surprisingly versatile when it comes to what sets it can run and what moves it can fit. scald and spin are p much set on the bulky utility variant but the other slots you can tailor to your teams needs entirely. ill admit that it does suffer a bit from 4mss but with smart building you will get around that. tenta is just such an easy glue mon to fit onto teams bc it has the tools to adapt to nearly all builds and styles. hell it can even make use of a fast offensive set to snipe krook with hydro pump and hydrei with dazzling gleam (the latter of which in particular is real fun when paired with knock off but i realise thats sort of hard to fit onto one set). people be complaining thats its not a solid alt-m check which is completely delusional if you ask me bc what poison type actually checks that thing if it carries eq. at least tenta resists fire coverage (which has seen a good amount of play alongside facade recently) and pressures with sludge wave preventing it from grabbing more than 1 boost. depending on how well your team handles fairies ofc you dont necessarily need poison stab and can fit another of the utility options. other than that tenta also makes for an easy scizor pivot (not a great check mind you but better than most of the other hazard removal for sure) which is def worth noting as well. yes its somewhat easy to pressure and relies a lot on lefties to function properly but jesus the payoff is still very well worth it most of the time. however all of this isnt exactly news. you might ask whats good for tenta right now that warrants a rise. after all mimi dropping means another spinblocker that tenta has to worry about. in practice that translates into investing a good amount more in speed so that it can reliably break mimis disguise and get 2 chances to burn with scald which cuts even further into its bulk. other than mimi there are a couple of other ghost types around but none are as frequent as mimi is right now. doublade sees a good amount of play but isnt exactly eager to catch a scald burn and often times lacks shadow claw. gengar which is prob the best spinblocker to tenta is p much non-existent rn with scarf krook running rampage and god only knows when the last time was i encountered a jellicent. froslass sees some play on ho i suppose but on these teams youll find two ghosts most of the time anyway since it dies right away so it doesnt really count as far as im concerned. other than that tho not much has changed for tentacruel from what i can tell so ask yourself whether you think the description above is more reflective of a b+ or an a- mon. if it werent for mimi id def get behind a rise to a- but as of right now i think well have to wait and see whether mimi hos stay as prominent as they are rn or if this trend will die down.

i guess while im at it i might as well nom starmie from b+ to b

offensive has some merits but certainly none that make it stand out as a spinner. pursuit being as prevalent as it is youre likely to lose your spinner pretty early on in the game which is already super ass. it has good coverage but fails to pick up kos bc youre missing a whopping 1.3 boost if the opp doesnt switch and being as frail as it is it likely dies in return. biding your time a bit to pick off stuff at decently high-ish hp at a later point in the game is the obvious alternative approach but thats not at all how starmie plays out most of the time in practice bc if you wanted rocks off at some point earlier in the game (which you know is likely bc why else would you have put spin on it if your team didnt appreciate that) starmie is prob long dead. the only somewhat ok set is lo 3 atks + recover imo but goodness gracious i have never encountered a mon that is so reliant on hitting pump for damage output as starmie so thats another big detriment (however i will come and find you if you use lo scald). as for other offensive variations ive used z thunder in the past to specifically lure and get a surprise kill on unexpecting empo and prima but overall i always felt it was a waste of a zmove user bc youre much better off putting the zmove on sth that can make good use of it every game rather than every other game. also the loss of power from life orb is very noticeable. oh and dont even get me started on the defensive set which does absolutely nothing well and still dies to everything.

so yeah keep the squid where it is for now & drop the starfish

peace

 

[Smallsmallrose]

bored at work so

i kinda want to agree with tenta from b+ to a- but im not entirely convinced

you dont find role compression of the sort tenta offers in uu period. its unrivaled utility (spin knock off tspikes haze) coupled with amazing typing makes it an absolute travesty that rn tenta resides in the same rank as starmie (which is utter dogshit btw). poison type obviously is amazing on a dedicated hazard removal mon to absorb tspikes and its ability clear body conveniently helps its mu vs webs too. moreover tentacruel is surprisingly versatile when it comes to what sets it can run and what moves it can fit. scald and spin are p much set on the bulky utility variant but the other slots you can tailor to your teams needs entirely. ill admit that it does suffer a bit from 4mss but with smart building you will get around that. tenta is just such an easy glue mon to fit onto teams bc it has the tools to adapt to nearly all builds and styles. hell it can even make use of a fast offensive set to snipe krook with hydro pump and hydrei with dazzling gleam (the latter of which in particular is real fun when paired with knock off but i realise thats sort of hard to fit onto one set). people be complaining thats its not a solid alt-m check which is completely delusional if you ask me bc what poison type actually checks that thing if it carries eq. at least tenta resists fire coverage (which has seen a good amount of play alongside facade recently) and pressures with sludge wave preventing it from grabbing more than 1 boost. depending on how well your team handles fairies ofc you dont necessarily need poison stab and can fit another of the utility options. other than that tenta also makes for an easy scizor pivot (not a great check mind you but better than most of the other hazard removal for sure) which is def worth noting as well. yes its somewhat easy to pressure and relies a lot on lefties to function properly but jesus the payoff is still very well worth it most of the time. however all of this isnt exactly news. you might ask whats good for tenta right now that warrants a rise. after all mimi dropping means another spinblocker that tenta has to worry about. in practice that translates into investing a good amount more in speed so that it can reliably break mimis disguise and get 2 chances to burn with scald which cuts even further into its bulk. other than mimi there are a couple of other ghost types around but none are as frequent as mimi is right now. doublade sees a good amount of play but isnt exactly eager to catch a scald burn and often times lacks shadow claw. gengar which is prob the best spinblocker to tenta is p much non-existent rn with scarf krook running rampage and god only knows when the last time was i encountered a jellicent. froslass sees some play on ho i suppose but on these teams youll find two ghosts most of the time anyway since it dies right away so it doesnt really count as far as im concerned. other than that tho not much has changed for tentacruel from what i can tell so ask yourself whether you think the description above is more reflective of a b+ or an a- mon. if it werent for mimi id def get behind a rise to a- but as of right now i think well have to wait and see whether mimi hos stay as prominent as they are rn or if this trend will die down.

i guess while im at it i might as well nom starmie from b+ to b

offensive has some merits but certainly none that make it stand out as a spinner. pursuit being as prevalent as it is youre likely to lose your spinner pretty early on in the game which is already super ass. it has good coverage but fails to pick up kos bc youre missing a whopping 1.3 boost if the opp doesnt switch and being as frail as it is it likely dies in return. biding your time a bit to pick off stuff at decently high-ish hp at a later point in the game is the obvious alternative approach but thats not at all how starmie plays out most of the time in practice bc if you wanted rocks off at some point earlier in the game (which you know is likely bc why else would you have put spin on it if your team didnt appreciate that) starmie is prob long dead. the only somewhat ok set is lo 3 atks + recover imo but goodness gracious i have never encountered a mon that is so reliant on hitting pump for damage output as starmie so thats another big detriment (however i will come and find you if you use lo scald). as for other offensive variations ive used z thunder in the past to specifically lure and get a surprise kill on unexpecting empo and prima but overall i always felt it was a waste of a zmove user bc youre much better off putting the zmove on sth that can make good use of it every game rather than every other game. also the loss of power from life orb is very noticeable. oh and dont even get me started on the defensive set which does absolutely nothing well and still dies to everything.

so yeah keep the squid where it is for now & drop the starfish

peace

One Quick note Ill make about the spinblockers, Krook is hardly a Gengar deterrent since it's most popular set in substitute was more or less made to punish teams reliant on Scarf Krook/Hydra as their team's sole Gengar answer. You also didn't bring any mention to Hoopa (a very similar spinblocker to Gengar in that it beats Tenta and punishes pursuit counterplay via sub) which has been falling in and out of usage. I'll agree that Jellicent hasn't seen play in quite some time. But saying Mimi and Doublade are the only spinblockers you'll see is an oversight when the performance of Substitute Hoopa and especially Sub Gengar only increases as the Meta turns away from the dedicated special walls that beat them outright in favor of shakier pursuit users and fast darks. Not exactly disagreeing with your nominations toward Tentacruel or Starmie, but I disagreed with how your post undermined Gengar's effectiveness.
Another note, I don't really care for spin Starmie nowadays, 4 attacks is a much better use of it's speed and power, especially since analytic lowers the amount of effective switches to it just clicking buttons. I think it's far more effective than spin variants and should be the set explored when deciding it's rank, spinning is more up the alley of Tenta and M-Toise in my personal opinion and I haven't seen an effective Spin Starmie in quite some time.

 

[esche]

Anway, I'll admit that I underrestimated Gengar's usage. I checked the stats for July and turns out Gengar sits at 6% usage with over 50% carrying Substitute. In comparison, Doublade sits just above 5% usage, which very much surprised me given what great an answer to Terrakion, Cobalion and Mega Altaria that fits on both balanced and offensive builds it is without being as susceptible to Pursuit as other Ghost are. While we're talking usage, Mimikyu's is - as expected - through the roof (11%) and while I'm aware that this statistic should be taken with some grain of salt due to new toy syndrome my main point about Mimikyu being the main spinblocker Tentacruel has to worry about right now still stands.

 

[sanguine]

While we're talking usage, Mimikyu's is - as expected - through the roof (11%) and while I'm aware that this statistic should be taken with some grain of salt due to new toy syndrome my main point about Mimikyu being the main spinblocker Tentacruel has to worry about right now still stands.

I would argue that Mimikyu is only found on niche hyper offense which only constitutes a small portion of games. Additionally, Mimikyu has to risk Scald burn/Disguise Break if the Tentacruel player predicts correctly, making going MMQ on Tenta a relatively bad play. Also, the 50/50 being always in the hands of the Tentacruel player makes me believe that the very threat of Rapid Spin against those niche hyper offense teams w/ Bisharp makes a correctly played Tentacruel even more valuable, which probably is an argument to raise it, not lower it.

 

[esche]

yo nobody is talking about lowering it my dude

if it werent for mimi id def get behind a rise to a-

keep the squid where it is for now

im well aware of the risk mimi faces when switching into tentacruel. however this situation is far from being always in the hands of the tentacruel player as you decribed. in fact from a perspective of chance the mimi player is not disadvantaged even if the tenta player makes the correct prediction of scald on the switch (0.7x0.7=0.5). moreover the very presence of ghosts are often enough to discourage spin alltogether. predictions go both ways after all and, while it undoubtedly bears the risk of burn or getting your item knocked off, using mimi as a spinblocker to tenta is far from a "bad play" in my book.

i also disagree with your assessment of mimi only being found on "niche hyper offense". while it might be true that mimi functions best on hyper offense, classic offense and bulky offense both have means of successfully incorporating mimi on their structures as well. besides, pure ho has definitely seen some resurgence with mimi dropping plus screens has been seeing good usage for a while now. whats more these "niche" playstyles dont exactly do kindly to tenta because of its relative frailty and lack of power by nature of providing defensive utility while also featuring certain valuable offensive traits (such as its speed) but excelling at neither of them which i find lets it get overwhelmed rather easily by all-out-offensive playstyles. you can continue to insist that a perfectly played tenta will yield results vs ho and im not at all making the point that its useless (especially t-spikes are often times helpful in that mu) but its certainly not as amazing as you make it out to be. all im saying is that rn tenta is looking at yet another ghost type capable of preventing it from executing its primary purpose and that we should give it a bit more time before all too hastily deciding to raise it.

 

[sanguine]

im well aware of the risk mimi faces when switching into tentacruel. however this situation is far from being always in the hands of the tentacruel player as you decribed. in fact from a perspective of chance the mimi player is not disadvantaged even if the tenta player makes the correct prediction of scald on the switch (0.7x0.7=0.5).

0.7^2 is actually 0.49, making getting a burn actually in the Tentacruel’s favor

moreover the very presence of ghosts are often enough to discourage spin alltogether. predictions go both ways after all and, while it undoubtedly bears the risk of burn or getting your item knocked off, using mimi as a spinblocker to tenta is far from a "bad play" in my book.

It is a bad play since MMQ should never be taking this risk considering the potential drawbacks in regards to win/breaking potential. Having Disguise broken + LO Knocked or Scald burn is practical death in most matchups

i also disagree with your assessment of mimi only being found on "niche hyper offense". while it might be true that mimi functions best on hyper offense, classic offense and bulky offense both have means of successfully incorporating mimi on their structures as well.

Perhaps, “only” is an overstatement that needs some qualification. MMQ is mostly found on those niche hyper offense teams. The vast majority of classic/bulky offense teams do not include MMQ, and as such I really didn’t feel the need to consider those select few builds with MMQ as part of those structures when writing the post, but sure I’ll give that to you.

besides, pure ho has definitely seen some resurgence with mimi dropping plus screens has been seeing good usage for a while now. whats more these "niche" playstyles dont exactly do kindly to tenta because of its relative frailty and lack of power by nature of providing defensive utility while also featuring certain valuable offensive traits (such as its speed) but excelling at neither of them which i find lets it get overwhelmed rather easily by all-out-offensive playstyles.

Tentacruel does indeed require smart play, intensive resource management, and some amount of team support

I’ll give to you that Tentacruel can get overwhelmed in those specific matchup, but really it should be picking what it wants to do in that specific matchup and sticking to that. I see a lot of players (including myself) who want it to check SD LO Scizor, but also remove hazards, and also Haze the Bisharp without really realizing that Tentacruel is about resource management and being aware of limits. Tentacruel does have limits, but those limits can be played around given the right team support and appropriate situational awareness.

you can continue to insist that a perfectly played tenta will yield results vs ho and im not at all making the point that its useless (especially t-spikes are often times helpful in that mu) but its certainly not as amazing as you make it out to be. all im saying is that rn tenta is looking at yet another ghost type capable of preventing it from executing its primary purpose and that we should give it a bit more time before all too hastily deciding to raise it.

I didn’t (or at least did not mean to) imply that perfectly played tenta will result in gains vs HO. I was trying to say that Tentacruel has a use case versus those HO teams, and the proactive player in the spin/scald 50/50s is the Tentacruel player, which considering that being in a proactive position is one of the keys to winning games, is a positive. Lastly, the original point I was trying to make was that MMQ isn’t so popular that a somewhat middling matchup versus the handful of structures with MMQ or MMQ itself existing as another “spinblocker” is enough to discount the good matchup spread against every other playstyle and flexibility it can lend on the teambuilder.

 

[VCrakeV]

Is there a particular format for proposing a rank for a UR Pokemon? Do I need sets? Replays? I have sets, but I haven't thought about saving any replays (and of course I will provide an argument explaining what the Pokemon does in the tier, and why it should be recognized as viable).

 

[VCrakeV]

After reading nominations from the past few months, I see that there isn't a standard format to nominations, and replays aren't necessary. I know this is a controversial nomination, but I'd like to nominate Avalugg from UR to C- for its niche on stall. It may seem to be an unviable pick, even on stall, due to the vast amount of physical sweepers and breakers in UU that get super effective STAB against Avalugg: Mega Aerodactyl, Terrakion, Lucario, and Cobalion, to name a few. However, Avalugg can check physical attackers that don't have super effective STAB, and even some that do (like Mega Aerodactyl). It should be easy to guess what sets Avalugg can run, as it is very predictable, but for completion's sake, here's the go-to set:

Avalugg @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Avalanche
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic

Max HP and defense allows Avalugg to check prominent breakers, like CB Crawdaunt, Malt, Mega Sharpedo, and Haxorus. Avalugg can also check hazard setters that can threaten out tradition stall picks, like Mamoswine and Krookodile (the latter can cripple Gligar with knock off). While not as problematic for stall, Mega Aerodactyl is also checked by Avalugg, so you don't need a different check like Malt (which you also don't need for Crawdaunt). Rocky helmet chips away at some Pokemon Avalugg checks, and punishes u-turn from the likes of Mega Beedrill.

An alternative set with 252HP / 144Def / 112SpD and leftovers can be used to check LO grass knot Zeraora, but this doesn't achieve much else. Curse can be used over toxic to better check DD refresh Malt, and also allows Avalugg to stay in on threatening physical attackers like Terrakion and banded Infernape after a boost.

The reasoning for C- is that C and C- are reserved for Pokemon that serve a specific niche, but aren't good outside of that niche. Articuno (C-), for example, only fits on stall, and only serves to check passive hazard setters that rely on toxic to force out defoggers/spinners (like Empoleon and Swampert). Avalugg also only fits on stall, and has its niche in compressing roles as both a hazard remover and an anti-breaker. Avalugg's ability to wall Mamoswine and remove its rocks is one of the biggest things going for Avalugg, as not many (if any) other Pokemon can do this. Because Avalugg can check prominent breakers as well, it isn't dead weight against teams without a hazard setter that Avalugg is needed to check.