UU Suspect Discussion - Kingdra

[Harsha]

I suppose it's time for me to express my thoughts on the subject.

Here's the thing, Kingdra is one of those few Pokemon that when I first see on the opponent's side of the field gives me that "ugh I have no fucking clue what to switch to now" feeling. The reason for this is simple--unpredictability. The fact that Kingdra has the typing, movepool, and balanced offensive stats to hit hard from both sides makes it really hard to switch into. Obviously, if you know its set beforehand you can just go to your Cobalion to beat Dragon Dancers or your Snorlax to beat Rain Dance / Specs sets. The problem is, you don't know--it's not like Kingdra hangs a sign around its neck saying "hey I'm going to Specs Draco Meteor!".

That being said, it's my opinion that Kingdra has all but one of the traits that would usually push an unpredictable Pokemon over that 'broken' line--immediate power--the trait that broke Salamence in DPP OU. Unlike Salamence's Draco Meteor, Kingdra's wont outright demolish everything in its path, so you can switch your say... Slowbro into it and won't outright lose your physical wall (granted, Rengenerator helps a ton).

I could have probably used better examples throughout but I honestly can't be fucked to do so at the moment. It really is that simple to me, though, Kingdra just lacks the immediate power that would otherwise break it. It also doesn't put too much of a strain on teambuilding because while it has no perfect switchins, there's a couple Pokemon that can switch into all variants semi-reliably (think Porygon2 and Slowking). On top of that, due to the way battles actually play out, you can usually afford to play around it until you figure out its set and then go to a proper check (although I guess this is derived from its lack of immediate power).

So yeah at the moment I'm definitely leaning towards no ban. I could still change my mind but that seems unlikely.

Umm I don't really post here but I play UU so I'll throw in my 2 cents. This is exactly my opinion -- Kingdra is a dangerous Pokemon because you don't know what it's going to do to your team (you send out a special wall predicting a Draco Meteor and it uses Substitute, you send out your physical wall out and it uses Rain Dance, etc), but it can't really punish you for your mistakes with only base 95 offenses. Just one turn of setup isn't going to cut it unless it's the late-game and you're severely weakened, though if you do misplay after that the games likely over.

I don't think it's ban-worthy because while it has the tools it needs to be broken, it can't take advantage of them with its offenses. It's definitely even less of a threat once you figure out the set because you can just send in your answer to it straight away.

 

[Darkvirus]

Kingdra becoming a suspect I'm not shocked its a big threat in the current UU format the DD set after a little prior damage to its checks can sweep a team after a DD or can come in and smash things with specs draco's or hydro pumps. I have been using DD Kingdra since the start of the previous teir shifts and it has been fantastic for me wins me a large amount of games but that's not to say i believe it to be broken. There is a fair few solid checks and revenge killers to a +1Kingdra The most common flygon(scarf) can out speed and ohko with outrage Suicune can take its hits fairly well and roar it out or try burn with scald.

Also you can look at it from a defensive point of view it can take hits from Darmanditan and Chandlure which not many things like too both of those imo are far more threatening then Kingdra due to the damage they can do without the need to set up To put it simply I believe there are too many reasons to keep Kingdra around then to ban it in the way UU has "settled down" to at the moment.

 

[kokoloko]

Okay, all the votes are in, here's the paragraphs:

FlareBlitz

There are four things we should discuss when talking about whether Kingdra is suspect: Threat level before set-up, ease of set-up, potential damage caused after set-up, and unpredictability.

First, threat level before set-up. Kingdra is not very powerful without set-up when compared to other premier UU threats (see: Flygon, Chandelure, Darmantian). Even its Choice Specs set has to rely on good prediction with its STABs, and has problems with bulky waters with recovery (Milotic, Slowking, even Slowbro at times) and specially-defensive Pokemon in general.

Next, ease of set-up. Kingdra has good bulk (about as much as Nidoqueen), which allows it to take powerful attacks and still use Dragon Dance / Rain Dance. It also has fortuitous typing, which offers it excellent resistances and exceptional offensive STABs. Kingdra finds it very easy to set up; however, we should bear in mind that the sets which have the easiest time in setting up also have the lowest potential offensive output.

That brings me to my next point: potential damage caused after set-up. This is where Kingdra falters a bit. Despite good typing and bulk, base 95 offensive stats often leave Kingdra in an awkward position against bulky offense teams. The ChestoRest set, for example, cannot ohko offensive Shaymin even with +1 Outrage. Further, it cannot outrun fast offensive Pokemon such as Crobat and Weavile, and certainly cannot outrun Scarfers. The special Rain Dance set has no problem with speed, and has a powerful STAB Hydro Pump, but it has to rely on Draco Meteor to punch through bulky water resists. The reliance on such an unreliable move, particularly against Pokemon with recovery (for example, Roserade can take a hit and immediately rest, leaving Kingdra in a very bad position), can leave Kingdra unable to sweep after causing very little damage to the opposing team. The offensive Dragon Dance set has no problems with power and has fewer problems with speed than the ChestoRest set, but takes far more damage during set-up, is more vulnerable to status moves, and has to be more wary of priority moves. While it may be that the sum of every potential set Kingdra can run makes it seem insurmountable, it should be apparent that every set has its own weaknesses.

Finally, we have unpredictability. Kingdra is certainly unpredictable, being able to attack from both sides of the spectrum with multiple different sets. However, there are several Pokemon in UU that can handle all its sets reasonably well. Empoleon, Porygon2, Slowking, Registeel, defensive Shaymin, Milotic, and Escavalier serve as relatively hard counters. In addition, every individual set has a plethora of checks and counters specific to that set, which certainly shouldn't be discounted. While Kingdra is more unpredictable than, say, Darmantian, it actually has a larger number of Pokemon that can safely switch into it, simply because its offensive stats are relatively low, and because its Dragon STABs are fairly weak or have undesirable side effects. This means that, even if its unpredictability causes it to gain free turns, Kingdra can still be manageable.

Ultimately, Kingdra is a threatening but balanced part of the metagame. It causes more problems for certain team paradigms than others (with frail offensive teams dreading the special RD set) but the metagame is sufficiently oriented around bulky offense at this point that many of Kingdra's checks are found on nearly every team due to general metagame utility. It may have been imbalanced in a metagame that revolved around Sand and Stoutland, but in the current metagame Kingdra is just one more threat to prepare for.

Ginku

I'll just start this off by saying Kindgra should not be banned, my reasoning being the following:

At first, it might seem that Kingdra is an overwhelming threat through its combination of typing, bulk and movepool - it has a number of sets between sub DD, rain dance, specs, chesto rest etc, all of which are threatening through their boosted speed and power, and you don't know which one it is running, leaving you at risk of losing your physical/special wall to a Rain Dance/Dragon Dance set, respectively. There simply isn't any hard-counter to all of Kingdra's sets, making it necessary to play around it, find out its set and react accordingly. Further, the combination of its bulk and typing give it plenty of setup opportunities, be it walls that can't hurt it or locked sweepers. These qualities could've been the reason for Kingdra's ban, but they simply aren't enough to make up for its ultimately lacking offenses. In reality chances just are there will be something on the opponents team that can take a hit or two, Empoleon and Slowking for example, either beating it straight up or giving you an opprtunity to figure out its set and switch to your physical/special wall. And this is really what it boils down to - Kingdra may surprise unprepared teams with its set, but even if this results in losing a pokemon, the sweep will most likely stop there because kingdra doesn't have the power to sweep on its own without the opponent's team being considerably weakened.
So in the end, Kingdra might be a very unpredictable and powerful threat that will sweep a team here and there, but it can only do so against very unprepared teams or with a lot of support/by outplaying your opponent, which is simply how this game works. THere will always be top-threats, but this one just barely misses out on being too much for the meta, so I'm voting to keep Kingdra around.

kokoloko

Here's the thing, Kingdra is one of those few Pokemon that when I first see on the opponent's side of the field gives me that "ugh I have no fucking clue what to switch to now" feeling. The reason for this is simple--unpredictability. The fact that Kingdra has the typing, movepool, and balanced offensive stats to hit hard from both sides makes it really hard to switch into. Obviously, if you know its set beforehand you can just go to your Cobalion to beat Dragon Dancers or your Snorlax to beat Rain Dance / Specs sets. The problem is, you don't know--it's not like Kingdra hangs a sign around its neck saying "hey I'm going to Specs Draco Meteor!".

That being said, it's my opinion that Kingdra has all but one of the traits that would usually push an unpredictable Pokemon over that 'broken' line--immediate power--the trait that broke Salamence in DPP OU. Unlike Salamence's Draco Meteor, Kingdra's wont outright demolish everything in its path, so you can switch your say... Slowbro into it and won't outright lose your physical wall (granted, Rengenerator helps a ton).

I could have probably used better examples throughout but I honestly can't be fucked to do so at the moment. It really is that simple to me, though, Kingdra just lacks the immediate power that would otherwise break it. It also doesn't put too much of a strain on teambuilding because while it has no perfect switchins, there's a couple Pokemon that can switch into all variants semi-reliably (think Porygon2 and Slowking). On top of that, due to the way battles actually play out, you can usually afford to play around it until you figure out its set and then go to a proper check (although I guess this is derived from its lack of immediate power).

So yeah, due to it lacking that one crucial characteristic, I'll be voting no ban on Kingdra.

PK Gaming

Kingdra is a very polarizing Pokemon in BW UU. It's veers dangerously close to being "uncounterable." UU is home to several Pokemon that I would classify as "difficult to counter" (Darmanitan, Raikou, etc) but Kingdra is even more difficult to counter due to the fact that it can run several different sets that have a very different checks. This is primarily due to the fact Kingdra has sets that are split into 2 different categories; physically offensive & specially offensive. This makes it exceedingly difficult to counter because its checks for the physically offensive set are destroyed by the specially offensive set and vice versa. The first turn that Kingdra switches unhindered is important, because it has the potential of guaranteeing a kill if you switch into a wrong check (or worse; allow it to set up a Dragon Dance or Rain Dance). I'd be lying if I said Kingdra wasn't a frustrating Pokemon to deal with, however, Kingdra is just that; a frustrating Pokemon to deal with.

A Pokemon that is practically uncounterable isn't necessarily broken. There are several things that should be considered about Kingdra, but these are the 2 things that keeps it from being broken in UU.

It's slow

Base 85 speed isn't much in BW UU, especially for an offensive Pokemon. If Kingdra hasn't set up yet, it'll have a hard time matching up against faster paced offensive teams (outside of switching into choiced fire moves anyway).

It's not threatening without a boost.

If Kingdra hasn't set up a Dragon Dance / Rain Dance, or if it isn't using a Choice Specs, Kingdra is actually fairly weak. Unboosted Waterfall hits for pitiful damage, and unboosted Outrage is underwhelming in general (furthermore, locking Kingdra into an Outrage before it sets up is suicide)

Dragon Dance

Kingdra's most prominent set, Dragon Dance Kingdra is an incredibly dangerous set up sweeper. What makes it so good is that it is capable of bypassing common UU physical walls (Slowbro / Gligar) with its combination of STAB moves and its penchant for avoiding status (either via Lum Berry or Rest). There are few variants to this set, (Chesto Rest / Sub DD / Pure offensive) which require you to approach them differently, but for the most part they're dealt with in the same manner.

---

Dealing with DD Kingdra

It's actually incredibly difficult to prevent Kingdra from setting up period, since it has no problem setting up on a ton of UU Pokemon. Instead, punishing it when it attempts to set up is a good alternative. For example, after a KO, if Kingdra switches into your...LO Darmanitan, staying in and using Earthquake is a viable strategy. Getting any bit of damage on Kingdra is extremely important since you can revenge kill it with priority / scarfer at later points in the match, Don't perform any unnecessary switches because if Kingdra sets up a second Dragon Dance, its usually game over. Aggresive double switches are effective at stopping Kingdra from setting up. The assumption that it will always attempt the set up a DD is important because DD Kingdra isn't very threatening before a boost.

+1 DD Kingdra is outspaced by the majority of scarfers. Choice Flygon and Krookodile will outspace it, and since its almost always adamant natured, Choice Scarf Heracross, Nidoking (and even Chandelure) can revenge KO it. None of these Pokemon outside of Flygon have moves that can OHKO Kingdra, but if you've gotten any sort of damage on Kingdra (via hazards or prior damage). Ditto will always revenge kill Kingdra and it can actually turn Kingdra into a liability for the opponents team.

If Kingdra has successful set up a Dragon Dance and it has killed a Pokemon, you can still beat with a 1-2 punch combination. +1 Kingdra is strong, but it isn't capable of OHKOing many of UU's tanks such as Cobalion, Shaymin & Swampert. All of these Pokemon can tank a hit and deal heavy damage in return with their respective STAB (which usually puts Kingdra into ko from priority or scarf users range).DON'T switch into a wall like Slowbro or Porygon2. While they may seem like attractive options because they have access to Thunder Wave, Thunder Wave is bypassed by Lum Berry or the Chesto berry + rest combination, which basically allows Kingdra to set up multiple Dragon Dances.

And finally, there are a few Pokemon that can actually counter Kingdra DD Kingdra; Physically defensive Slowking and Tangrowth. Slowking can take a +1 Outrage (and more than once due to regenerator) and force it with Dragon Tail. Tangrowth is pretty much always beating DD Kingdra.

---

Choice Specs

Choice Specs Kingdra is an incredible powerful special attacker that can obliterate most of UU with its combination of high base power STAB moves. It can even muscle through some of the strongest special walls in UU if the conditions are right (spike stacking). Choice Specs Kingdra is special(lol) because its capable of destroying common DD Kingdra checks with its STAB Draco Meteor, which is arguably this sets best quality. Outside of that, its just strong special attacker thats held back by its slow speed and its easier to counter on average. It also has checks counters in the form of Snorlax, Umbreon, Water / Dragon resists, etc.

Rain Dance

Rain Dance Kingdra might be the least common out of the 3 prominent Kingdra sets, but has the potential to be the strongest. After a Rain Dance, its impossible to revenge kill Kingdra because of Swift Swim, so the only way you can get damage on its after it has set up is via priority. When it comes to lategame sweeping, none of its other sets can match this sets ability to cut right through teams like a hot knife on butter. Fortunately, there are some pitfalls to using Rain Dance Kingdra. Rain Dance Kingdra is basically forced to use Draco Meteor to bypass water resists (dragon pulse isn't doing enough to most of them) and Rain Dance itself runs on a time limit.

In short, Kingdra is an incredible Pokemon in UU, (i'd say its a strong contender for possibly being the best Pokemon in UU) but it has more than its fair share of downsides that keep it from being utterly broken. Players should accept the fact that it will usually get a kill in a game, and should play at their very best when dealing with Kingdra. I don't think Kingdra negatively impacts UU the metagame, and actually promotes more strategy in UU.

Verdict: Kingdra is not broken

RT.

Kingdra is without question a top threat in UU, but I do not believe it is broken. Its typing, movepool, and well-distributed stats that allow it to hit hard from both sides of the spectrum make it really hard to switch into. However, there are several Pokemon in UU that can handle all its sets reasonably well. Empoleon, Slowking, Milotic, and Porygon2 all serve as reliable counters.

When you look at each set individually, you’ll notice that each one has many additional checks and counters, which should not be ignored. All of the Dragon Dance variants suffer from lack of speed and immediate power; meaning Scarfed pokemon can easily revenge kill it at +1 Speed, and bulky pokemon like Shaymin, Swampert, and Cofagrigus can hammer it hard while not taking much from Kingdra’s attacks. The Rain Dance and Choice Specs sets have no way to boost Kingdra’s Special Attack stat, so they are stopped cold by dedicated special walls like Snorlax and Umbreon.

Regarding Kingdra’s movepool, neither Draco Meteor nor Outrage are safe moves to be locked into, and they’re a large reason why Kingdra can be played around instead of directly countered. After a Draco Meteor, Kingdra is setup bait for a whole plethora of pokemon, while Outrage gives your opponent an opportunity to revenge kill or phaze it. If Kingdra had better offensive stats, it’d be a much stronger suspect. However, base 95 stats can only take it so far. So basically, while kingdra has most of the things it needs to be broken - typing, movepool, stats, and unpredictability - it lacks the power to push it over the edge.

Do Not Ban

SJCrew

I would say Kingdra is broken the first turn you see him, since there is no way to know whether he'll DD, Rain Dance, or Surf/Draco Meteor you right away, and for the most part, his checks are set dependent. This causes a lot of problems for players, since in UU, there aren't many Pokemon that can take both a Specs Draco Meteor and a +1 Outrage and live with enough HP to continue checking Kingdra. Thankfully, two of UU's greatest checks to it, Slowking and Empoleon, come in handy to ensure Kingdra can't just do what it wants early in the game. Slowking is in a unique position to where if EV'd with maximum HP and defense, it can take a +1 Outrage and Dragon Tail it out, while its natural special bulk allows it to scout Specs Draco Meteor, then pivot out into Brozong or Snorlax and get some of that HP back with Regenerator. Empoleon needs no introduction, as it is most players' best attempt to deal with Kingdra. It can take all but a Specs Hidden Power Electric well, a move most Kingdra players would abhor being locked into, and either wear it down with Ice Beam and Grass Knot or Roar its boosts away. There are even niche options for checking both of Kingdra's sets, such as Resttalk Milotic, Amoonguss, and specially defensive Tangrowth.

DD is Kingdra's most common set by far and I feel it needs its own evaluation. Even if Kingdra is fully prepared, he's not guaranteed a sweep. First off, there's the lock-in and confusion of Outrage that makes it impossible for him to evade Sucker Punch from Bisharp and Honchkrow, or a revenge kill from Flygon if he's forced to go for broke (assuming Shaymin or another Kingdra comes in, for example; you really can't do anything but Outrage in that scenario in the late game). OU Dragons don't have this problem because they're extremely powerful and can KO many things at just +1. Kingdra HAS to go for multiple boosts whenever he gets the chance or else Waterfall does poor damage and Scarfers like Mienshao can just revenge kill him right away after a single boost.

Notice how I keep bringing up power. For each Pokemon Kingdra fails to KO after his boost, he takes another attack. He can't 2HKO Cobalion with any of his standard DD sets for example, so that's possibly a +2 CC waiting for him as he Waterfalls futilely, or just one CC if he's already taken prior damage. He can't KO Bisharp with Waterfall either, who can either force him out with two Sucker Punches, or set up a Swords Dance as the first attack fails to KO and sweep right past him. Even Dusclops can counter a Dragon Dance Kingdra if it's healthy enough, as can a healthy defensive Cofagrigus. Rain Dance is another ballgame entirely: you're on a timer, every hit has to kill, and the only way you're getting past any bulky Water-type is Draco Meteor and Outrage. Good luck if any of them are healthy.

Overall, Kingdra is a tough case to make for UU since you could be losing a Pokemon if you don't have one of his few solid checks, but even tougher to make for BL, since he really needs his unpredictability and several turns of setup to do grown mon's damage. Without a weakened team to bully around, he's capable of one surprise kill at best before being revenge killed immediately, which is definitely not a cut above other top tier UUs. No ban for me.

Upstart

Kingdra is indeed a top tier threat. However, from repeated use of Kingdra, I believe that Kingdra should not be banned. The defining characteristic of kingdra’s might is kingdra’s unpredictability. Despite not having a true counter due to special and physical unpredictability, many checks and switch-ins exist to handle the various kingdra sets. Furthermore, kingdra is very dependent on set-up in order to wreak devastation due to her mediocre attacking stats. This turn is crucial when battling kingdra as it gives away the set while also giving an opportunity to respond. Kingdra is bulky enough to almost guarantee one turn of set up. The dragon dance set is hindered in that it often needs more than one turn of set up to get past its checks as it lacks the power for the ohko’s and lacks the speed to prevent being revenge killed. The rain dance set lacks the power or means of getting past the bulky waters (bar slowbro) or bulky grass types that can recover. In addition, Kingdra is further hindered by the shift to a faster metagame where as before she didn’t even need to necessarily max out speed. Thus to sum it all up Kingdra is a contender for one of the top pokemon in UU but is not broken due to the large number of checks and she lacks the little bit of power needed from her to break the metagame.

So with that, the unanimous decision is that, despite being incredibly dangerous and unpredictable, Kingdra is not ban worthy, so it will be staying in UU. A big thanks to everyone who participated in the thread; please continue to do so in future discussions.

That is all.