Gen 2 Vaporeon machamp offense

[Supreetin]

Hi everyone.

I wanted to create a simple team based-off both vaporeon and machamp. The goal is to clean the game with either vaporeon, machamp or a combination of both. Using one to open up holes for the other. This team is quite comfortable to play for me and I've played through ~100 matches with it

Raikou @ Leftovers
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Roar
- Rest

Raikou is an amazing pokemon for this team. Safely allowing my team to absorb thunders and allowing me to pivot safely into snorlax when we need it.
I choose thunder here to deal a lot of damage and paralyze stuff on the switch such as snorlax.
It can also spikes shuffle to do a lot of damage.
Roar is very important here because It's one of the mons who allow me to check dangerous stuff such as perish trap gengar, perish trap misdreavus and umbreon mean look baton pass. Raikou is my only phazer so It's important to keep it healthy against the above threats.
This raikou can also be used as a late game cleaner If need be.

Exeggutor @ Leftovers
- Sleep Powder
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Psychic
- Explosion

Exeggutor is the sleeper and boomer of this team. It's mainly a zapdos lure but sometimes you can boom on cool stuff such as snorlax. It's important to use sleep powder carefully to not be vulnerable to tyranitar and houndoom.
I use HP fire on predicted skarmory switch-ins to dent it and help my machamp to do It's job. It's also very nice to be able to surprise forretress from time to time.

Cloyster @ Leftovers
- Spikes
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Explosion

Cloyster is my spiker and It can get rid of starmie the biggest counter to machamp and a very nice check/pivot to vaporeon. It's also a nice explosion absorber because this team has no normal resist. I prefer it over forretress to avoid random HP fire/Fire blast and I need to set my spikes ASAP without needing to scout my opponent moveset. HP electric to do a lot of damage to opposing cloyster. Surf is my stab move of choice and obviously explosion to allow cloyster to participate offensively and not waste momentum.

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Self-Destruct

Snorlax is another boomer who allows me to wall a variety of threats (especially special attackers). If I can boom on another snorlax with it It's welcome. Body slam to spread para on opposing snorlax, skarmory, golem and cloyster. Curse is there to give it more bite and threaten a sweep. It can be used as a last mon sweeper too.

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
- Hydro Pump
- Growth
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

Vaporeon is one of the most important pokemon on my team. It can absorb sleep, check annoying pokemon such as jynx, sweep in the lategame and put a huge dent on zapdos/raikou with Hydro pump. Hydro pump deals 36-42.5% to raikou and 38.6-45.6% to zapdos opening up a lot of opportunities for machamp to set up curses and sweep.

Machamp @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Cross Chop
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Bug]

Machamp is my sweeper. It can be used as a late game cleaner and It is often brought in the midgame. Boosted rock slide 2HKO zapdos. Paraflinch is also very fun to abuse when skarmory is paralyzed.

Importable

Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 26 Def
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Roar
- Rest

Exeggutor @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 6 HP / 28 Atk / 24 Def
- Sleep Powder
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Psychic
- Explosion

Cloyster @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Spikes
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Explosion

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Self-Destruct

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: none
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- Growth
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

Machamp @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 26 Atk / 26 Def
- Curse
- Cross Chop
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Bug]

CHECKS AND COUNTERS


Blissey

Blissey completely shut down this team. It can safely absorb hydro pumps help out the team with light screen and is a good pivot in general to vaporeon. No pokemon on this team can really benefit from blissey passivity because they don't hit hard enough for it to matter.


Any variant of baton pass team

Nothing to say here. This team only has one phazer so any variant of Baton Pass should take care of it.

Starmie

If for whatever reason cloyster can't explode on it, then this pokemon will be very annoying. Good pivot to vaporeon and straight up counter to machamp.

Zapdos

Ironically Zapdos is a nice check to this team because It can paralyze Raikou (making it a lot less dangerous) and/or force to sleep the only phazer this team has and gain a lot of momentum. It's also a nice check to machamp in general.

Gengar

Gengar is very annoying because It can boom on raikou and there's nothing this team can do about it. Even If It see it coming It's still hard for it to do anything because this team has no normal resist.

Lovely kiss curselax

If this team doesn't predict the lovely kiss and It hits any of the pokemons(especially snorlax) then It can go out of control really fast.

 

[Sinkyr]

Hiii, first of all, pretty interesting team c: . Those 6 form one of my favourite GSC teams ever, which is the one you've got there with some little variations. So I'll gladly help you in the measure I can to make you feel more comfortable when you play it.

Minor Changes:

I recommend you to use Giga Drain over HP Fire. I know it's interesting to catch Skarmory or Forretress, but you can actually do that with Vapo, Kou or using Flame/FBlast Lax, Starmie is a big issue for your team, if it has Thunder is just gonna break you, so we need to fix this. Also You definately need Stun Spore over Sleep here, combined with the para chance of Lax's Body Slam you can get some useful paras that will help a lot Vaporeon and Machamp, That should be your game plan, try to get spikes, paralyze everything you can, and then try to break.

While using Exe + Raikou you aren't gonna need HP Electric as much as Toxic which is very useful against Blissey that worried you, even if it Heal Bells, you can force Lax to rest and punish other Cloyster like HP Electric does, This is just optional of course but i wouldn't be worried of Cloyster with the team you're using.

Since I recommended You to use Giga over Fire you can use Fire Blast Lax here to catch Forre and Skarm, Also I would use Rest over Self-Destruct, This is because your Raikou isn't restalk so you are gonna need another reliable answer to Gengar and Zapdos and it will also help you a lot against Blissey that you say it was difficult for you to play against.

While using Growth Restalk Vaporeon you definately need to use Surf over Hydro Pump, The set you posted above isn't viable because Hydro doesn't have many PPs, it can miss and the extra power won't give you any important KO to make it worth, Surf is so much more reliable here.

Import:
https://pokepast.es/ae79e32a36d15fb9

I made the changes that were almost mandatory for me, you can try a lot of variations, for example using Restalk Kou aswell and Boom over Curse Lax, you can use Ice Beam Cloyster if you have problems with opposite Exe or Zap, you can also use Restalk Snorlax, but as I left it you shouldn't have any problem to play it in a comfortable way,

I hope you like and test it. Hf!

 

[Jorgen]

This team falls into a surprisingly common trap! To wit, it fails to have a good answer to Heracross. Normally, this sort of Explosion team carries Zapdos for some minimal level of protection against it (although Curse Heracross can still beat it), and they often have the likes of Gengar and/or Steelix to complicate Heracross' life further.

It's funny, too, because Curse Heracross frequently gets paired with the very Snorlax set you're using (CurseBoom) to get rid of Skarmory.

There are a couple of remedies to this problem.

1) Ignore it & just play around Heracross. Seems ill-advised, but with 3 Explosion users, it's plausible that you find a way to do so. Especially with BoomLax: Curse Hera loves to stay in against Lax, so that seems like a good way to get a trade. Of course, you then likely struggle to find a way to broker a trade for your opponent's Snorlax.

2) Replace Raikou with Zapdos: perhaps the most typical approach. This can also be met with a more defensive Snorlax set (i.e., Sleep Talk) to shore up a newly-opened weakness to Electrics. Perhaps using Golem or Steelix over one of the other four would also help. You'd gain an Electric immunity and a new Phazer to replace Raikou. It also adds a Normal resist, which makes LK Snorlax less dangerous for you to fight. Golem has the added benefit of Rapid Spin, whereas Steelix has BoltBeam neutrality and a better defensive matchup against Heracross.

There are other options of course (e.g., keeping Raikou and replacing one of the other 4 with Zapdos; doing something else entirely such as throwing a Moltres in the mix or using even more Pokemon with Explosion). This team is very modular, after all.

 

[Supreetin]

Hiii, first of all, pretty interesting team c: . Those 6 form one of my favourite GSC teams ever, which is the one you've got there with some little variations. So I'll gladly help you in the measure I can to make you feel more comfortable when you play it.

Minor Changes:

I recommend you to use Giga Drain over HP Fire. I know it's interesting to catch Skarmory or Forretress, but you can actually do that with Vapo, Kou or using Flame/FBlast Lax, Starmie is a big issue for your team, if it has Thunder is just gonna break you, so we need to fix this. Also You definately need Stun Spore over Sleep here, combined with the para chance of Lax's Body Slam you can get some useful paras that will help a lot Vaporeon and Machamp, That should be your game plan, try to get spikes, paralyze everything you can, and then try to break.

While using Exe + Raikou you aren't gonna need HP Electric as much as Toxic which is very useful against Blissey that worried you, even if it Heal Bells, you can force Lax to rest and punish other Cloyster like HP Electric does, This is just optional of course but i wouldn't be worried of Cloyster with the team you're using.

Since I recommended You to use Giga over Fire you can use Fire Blast Lax here to catch Forre and Skarm, Also I would use Rest over Self-Destruct, This is because your Raikou isn't restalk so you are gonna need another reliable answer to Gengar and Zapdos and it will also help you a lot against Blissey that you say it was difficult for you to play against.

While using Growth Restalk Vaporeon you definately need to use Surf over Hydro Pump, The set you posted above isn't viable because Hydro doesn't have many PPs, it can miss and the extra power won't give you any important KO to make it worth, Surf is so much more reliable here.

Import:
https://pokepast.es/ae79e32a36d15fb9

I made the changes that were almost mandatory for me, you can try a lot of variations, for example using Restalk Kou aswell and Boom over Curse Lax, you can use Ice Beam Cloyster if you have problems with opposite Exe or Zap, you can also use Restalk Snorlax, but as I left it you shouldn't have any problem to play it in a comfortable way,

I hope you like and test it. Hf!

Well, I took the time to test the changes and here we go:

For egg: doesn't really change anything between hp fire and giga. I could even use double powder If I wanted to. But giga can make it easier to sweep with exeggutor in some situations. I don't find thunder starmie to be an issue regardless of the sets of my team, because I still have raikou, snorlax and egg can sleep it If there is no sleep clause, It can even stun it If It has stun. In an emergency I can still try to pp stall it out of thunder with vaporeon because thunder is a 3HKO but is inaccurate.

The third slot on cloyster isn't very important and It's very flexible tbh and I can change it for whatever (like toxic, ice beam, icy wind, clamp, reflect or even protect).

For snorlax, I tried boom 3 attacks and curse boom. I kind of prefer curse boom to put a dent in skarmory and to trade more easily my snorlax for his snorlax. My team has no normal resist so curselax is a very big threat. That's why I found the insurance to be nice. Curse + fire blast works too but I often found myself forced to go in a curse war, even though I don't always want to go that way.

Surf on vaporeon vs Hydro pump. Typical accuracy vs power debate. I see it like this there are many situations where with surf I don't even have a *chance* to do anything, I'm hopeless. But with hydro pump I have a 80% chance to save the day. I prefer to have a 80% chance to be able to do something than nothing. Now to answer your question: when is hydro pump better than surf? To wear down Zapdos/raikou. Hydro pump is a 3HKO on both electrics, meaning that after getting hit by a hydro pump they can't switch in safely again against vaporeon. Also hydro pump removes a nice chunk (36-42.5%) so It can help machamp/egg to sweep.

Hydro pump gives vaporeon a 80% chance of beating curselax. All It has to do is to growth when It thinks that snorlax is switching in Hit a Hydro pump and now snorlax is in big trouble and is probably forced to rest/switch out or risk killing itself with double-edge So It will either allow vaporeon to get a second growth boost or die.

Now I don't say that there aren't any downside to this. I'm well aware that I can miss against nidoking or marowak and potentially lose the game, but I'm willing to accept that risk in exchange of better wallbreaking abilities. Without hydro pump vaporeon really struggle to open up holes and It really reduce It's usefulness. The compression between sleep talker, opening up holes and sweeper is what makes it so good with all of these not only is vaporeon a good offensive tool but also a good defensive tool.

Without hydro pump vaporeon is a lot less dangerous because Zapdos is a safe switch-in and I can find myself losing momentum. Surf vaporeon can only be used as a late game sweeper and will require far more growth boosts to be able to sweep (for example You will need 2 growth boosts to 3HKO snorlax, but with hydro pump you won't even need a single growth boost to be able to do this).

PP isn't really that much of an issue against offensive teams because vaporeon is resttalk so I can still get my hydro pump that way.
But of course surf is a little better against teams that have blissey or a strong pivot like suicune because the PPs will definitely make it easier to play for me (and not the accuracy/power)

 

[Supreetin]

This team falls into a surprisingly common trap! To wit, it fails to have a good answer to Heracross. Normally, this sort of Explosion team carries Zapdos for some minimal level of protection against it (although Curse Heracross can still beat it), and they often have the likes of Gengar and/or Steelix to complicate Heracross' life further.

It's funny, too, because Curse Heracross frequently gets paired with the very Snorlax set you're using (CurseBoom) to get rid of Skarmory.

There are a couple of remedies to this problem.

1) Ignore it & just play around Heracross. Seems ill-advised, but with 3 Explosion users, it's plausible that you find a way to do so. Especially with BoomLax: Curse Hera loves to stay in against Lax, so that seems like a good way to get a trade. Of course, you then likely struggle to find a way to broker a trade for your opponent's Snorlax.

2) Replace Raikou with Zapdos: perhaps the most typical approach. This can also be met with a more defensive Snorlax set (i.e., Sleep Talk) to shore up a newly-opened weakness to Electrics. Perhaps using Golem or Steelix over one of the other four would also help. You'd gain an Electric immunity and a new Phazer to replace Raikou. It also adds a Normal resist, which makes LK Snorlax less dangerous for you to fight. Golem has the added benefit of Rapid Spin, whereas Steelix has BoltBeam neutrality and a better defensive matchup against Heracross.

There are other options of course (e.g., keeping Raikou and replacing one of the other 4 with Zapdos; doing something else entirely such as throwing a Moltres in the mix or using even more Pokemon with Explosion). This team is very modular, after all.

Well... I tried to play reflect roar raikou (and I don't mind ground pokemons that much because I have vaporeon to gain momentum back). It's still feel like a very shaky bandaid, but I wanted my team to be an offensive one, so I don't mind that much having a weaker defensive structure. But It's true that I have no good switch-in to heracross without reflect (I can technically switch-in snorlax and try to explode but It's extremely suspicious to switch snorlax into heracross so the opponent will see it coming from a few thousands miles).

Once reflect is up, however I have a lots of good switch-ins. All-out attacking snorlax, vaporeon and maybe fire blast machamp (If I have fire blast on it).

I still have to test a bit that because I'm still not 100% sure If my new version is that solid (reflect roar raikou, double powder egg, all out attacking snorlax[DE EQ Fire blast OR thunder Self-destruct], cloy, machamp and vaporeon)

 

[Jame$ G]

Pretty good, I like this team. They may be a rarity but poison types have an easy time against this though. Venusaur & Tentacruel out speed everything except Raikou who is already under immense pressure to tank electric attacks plus sleep puts it out of commission. Victreebel speed ties with Cloyster, your 2nd fastest. Vic & Venus can sleep Raikou, then your only play I can see is Snorlax, who will struggle against them without rest. You pretty much HAVE to nail them with that selfdustruct, and you won't get many windows. Tentacruel commonly carries substitute which can f#ck your explosion strategy and pp waste your machamp. If Raikou is sleeping or dead, again you only have Snorlax to stop a set up Tentacruel sweeping your team.

Lack of normal resistance does expose you to explosion & double edge lax just picking easy guaranteed damage all game. I personally only run setup teams for something faster than vaporeon if I'm doing zero normal resistance.

Heracross & Machamp (carrying f. blast or hp bug) also have an easy time landing big hits.