Gen 1 Venusaur (OU Revamp) [QC 1/2]

Yeah I decided to sloooooowly go over all the outdated stuff in dex order, idk why

[OVERVIEW]

Venusaur is both a reliable sleep user and threatening sweeper, thanks to its access to Sleep Powder and Swords Dance, a combination which synergises well by enabling Venusaur to readily create openings to set up. Despite these tools, it is only barely viable in OU, as its typing ensures that most OU staples can hit it super effectively. Furthermore, it lives in the shadow of Victreebel, which is a similar but far more versatile threat thanks to Wrap and Stun Spore. Victreebel's superior power also makes it more effective against Chansey, Alakazam and Jolteon if it's running a similar set. On the other hand, Venusaur's superior physical bulk makes it more effective at switching into Rhydon due to not being 2HKO'd by Earthquake while also allowing it to take stray hits from Snorlax and Tauros better, and its superior speed means that it doesn't have to risk a speed tie against Cloyster and it can incapacitate other Grass type sleep users. Overall, Venusaur's a significant threat if you can compensate for its weaknesses, however one must also be mindful that Victreebel may be a better choice unless care is taken to play to Venusaur's strengths.

[SET]
name: Swords Dance Sweeper
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Razor Leaf
move 3: Sleep Powder
move 4: Hyper Beam

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
The goal of this set is generally to put something to sleep, then set up with Swords Dance and tear through the opposing team. Swords Dance is necessary for Venusaur to pose a significant threat. Razor Leaf is a reliable STAB option, and great for chipping enemies into Hyper Beam range or for attacking if you're not ready to set up Swords Dance- it also eviscerates Water and Ground types, notably bypassing Slowbro's Amnesia boosts thanks to it practically always landing a critical hit. Sleep Powder is a generally useful move, but specifically provides Venusaur with openings to set up Swords Dance. Hyper Beam benefits from Swords Dance boosts and is excellent at finishing off weakened foes. It's worth bearing in mind that often the opponent will seek to play around sleep by either absorbing it with something that's of little value or blocking it with a paralysed pokemon- in such cases you may be better off scouting the opponent, or making a risky play and boosting straight away.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Body Slam is by far Venusaur's most notable alternate option, as it gives Venusaur a physical attacking option that's a lot safer than Hyper Beam while also having a chance to spread paralysis, however its damage output is rather poor- making Swords Dance less of a sweeping tool and more of a punishment for passive play. Otherwise Venusaur doesn't really have any good alternatives. Double-Edge is a little stronger than Body Slam and at +2 3HKOs Exeggutor and usually 2HKOs Chansey, but it can't paralyse and deals recoil damage instead so it generally isn't a great option.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Gengar**: Gengar is a hard counter as it's immune to Venusaur's boosted Normal attacks and resists Razor Leaf, while comfortably defeating Venusaur with Night Shade
**Dragonite**: Venusaur is a prime setup opportunity for Dragonite, as Venusaur cannot reliably paralyse Dragonite, nor can it otherwise prevent Dragonite from setting up Agility.
**Exeggutor**: Resists Razor Leaf, has good physical bulk and can retaliate with status and STAB Psychic.
**The Legendary Birds**: All three legendary birds resist Razor Leaf and 2HKO with super effective STAB attacks, while Zapdos also has the option of paralysing.
**Alakazam and Jynx**: Alakazam and Jynx both outspeed Venusaur and 2HKO it with their STAB attacks, however Alakazam has a 74% chance to be KO'd by +2 Hyper Beam, while Jynx is always OHKO'd (assuming no misses)

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Ortheore, 196844]] 7/3/2020
- Quality checked by: [[, ], [, ]]
- Grammar checked by: [[, ], [, ]]
 
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god mami chan

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Yo, this will probably be good content on a Pokemon that at least deserves a new analysis at this time, so we will allow this analysis to move forward, but please read the reservation index so you get a better sense of how this forum works. By default, you need to clear it with the QC team if you want to write an analysis on a pokemon that is not in the reservation index. So please let us know in the future, thanks!
 

Plague von Karma

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Thought I'd come in with some thoughts to help move this along.

I think noting about Razor Leaf's properties in more detail could be useful to the reader. For example, how it'll rip through Slowbro's Amnesia boosts. It'll also KO Starmie if it's taken a bit of chip (~18% chip on average), which could be handy to note.

Furthermore, it lives in the shadow of Victreebel, which is a similar but far more versatile threat with greater attacking power.
I think you should note that Victreebel gets Wrap as well. It's definitely a standout trait compared to Venusaur. Wrap wasn't noted anywhere at all when comparing the two. It should be noted that Venusaur is also faster than Victreebel, which has some good uses; it doesn't have to speed tie with Cloyster to get Razor Leaf off, for example. You could also draw comparisons to Exeggutor, though I think their niches are sufficiently different to distinguish them from one another.

This superior attacking power makes Victreebel more effective against Alakazam, Jolteon and Chansey, however Venusaur's superior physical bulk makes it more effective against Snorlax and Rhydon, giving it a small niche over Victreebel.
While this is very far from the GP phase, I think this needs to be split into two sentences around the "however" bit.

Venusaur does learn Growth, but Razor Leaf doesn't benefit from it, and all of Venusaur's other Grass attacks are either too feeble to be worth using, or are rendered useless by the need for a charge turn.
Not entirely sure why this is in Other Options if it's made useless by the moves that would benefit from it? Double-Edge has the niche of more power in exchange for recoil (I think some calcs could help there though), but Growth doesn't seem to have any use at all?
 
Thought I'd come in with some thoughts to help move this along.

I think noting about Razor Leaf's properties in more detail could be useful to the reader. For example, how it'll rip through Slowbro's Amnesia boosts. It'll also KO Starmie if it's taken a bit of chip (~18% chip on average), which could be handy to note.


I think you should note that Victreebel gets Wrap as well. It's definitely a standout trait compared to Venusaur. Wrap wasn't noted anywhere at all when comparing the two. It should be noted that Venusaur is also faster than Victreebel, which has some good uses; it doesn't have to speed tie with Cloyster to get Razor Leaf off, for example. You could also draw comparisons to Exeggutor, though I think their niches are sufficiently different to distinguish them from one another.


While this is very far from the GP phase, I think this needs to be split into two sentences around the "however" bit.


Not entirely sure why this is in Other Options if it's made useless by the moves that would benefit from it? Double-Edge has the niche of more power in exchange for recoil (I think some calcs could help there though), but Growth doesn't seem to have any use at all?
Hey thanks for the feedback, glad to see that somebody cares enough about this to comment. I went ahead and implemented your suggested changes.

I think Egg comparison is too much of a stretch tbh though. Sure, you're probably not running both of them on the same team, but I think they're completely different aside from destroying Ground types. Even the way they use Sleep is very different- Egg tends to come in early to use it to incapacitate something long term, whereas Venu enters play late and uses it as opportunity to boost.

Honestly I was going to dump DE vs BS in the cbf pile, but decided against it, and holy hell, the difference is a lot more significant than I expected. The following xHKOs are guaranteed (or >90%) with +2 DE, but fail to reach the same benchmarks if using BS
  • 2HKO vs Chansey (DE can technically miss the 2HKO, but it needs 2 min rolls, so extremely unlikely)
  • 3HKO vs Exeggutor
  • 3HKO vs Zapdos and Tauros (BS still achieves this most of the time, but there's a significant chance it fails, roughly 25% and 17% respectively)
 

Plague von Karma

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The current on-site Venusaur analysis is from the dinosaur age where there were hardly any standards, can't even find the original forum post. I really want to see it updated in some form.

--

I think Egg comparison is too much of a stretch tbh though. Sure, you're probably not running both of them on the same team, but I think they're completely different aside from destroying Ground types. Even the way they use Sleep is very different- Egg tends to come in early to use it to incapacitate something long term, whereas Venu enters play late and uses it as opportunity to boost.
Yeah, thought as much. You could compare them as Grass-type additions to the team, but they're so different it's hard to do that, as you've said.

--

Otherwise Venusaur doesn't really have any good alternatives. Double-Edge is a little stronger than Body Slam, but it can't paralyse and deals recoil damage instead.
I think citing the DEdge calcs when going over its power increase would help sell it as an OO.

You could put something like this, change in blue:
Otherwise Venusaur doesn't really have any good alternatives. Double-Edge is a little stronger than Body Slam, especially at +2, notably securing a 3HKO on Exeggutor and has a favourable chance to 2HKO Chansey. However, it can't paralyse and deals recoil damage instead.
--

I think the Victreebel comparison could be done a bit better though; you currently cite Victreebel's superior attacking prowess twice, which imo could be merged to be more concise. You could possibly structure it like this, change in blue:
Furthermore, it lives in the shadow of Victreebel, which is a similar but far more versatile threat thanks to Wrap and Stun Spore. It also offers greater attacking power in exchange for weaker defense, which makes it more effective against Chansey, Alakazam and Jolteon. On the other hand, Venusaur's superior physical bulk makes it more effective against Snorlax and Rhydon, and its superior speed means that it doesn't have to risk a speed tie against Cloyster. Overall, Venusaur's a significant threat if you can compensate for its weaknesses, however one must also be mindful that Victreebel may be a better choice unless care is taken to play to Venusaur's strengths.
From this potential change, there's less focus on Victreebel's pros over Venusaur, and more focus on what the latter can actually offer.
 

Plague von Karma

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Thought I'd check in and try to help this along some more.
Checks and Counters
===================

**Gengar**: Gengar is a hard counter as it's immune to Venusaur's boosted Normal attacks and resists Razor Leaf, while comfortably KOing with Night Shade
**Dragonite**: Venusaur is a prime setup opportunity for Dragonite, as Venusaur cannot reliably paralyse Dragonite, nor can it otherwise prevent Dragonite from setting up Agility.
**Exeggutor**: Resists Razor Leaf, has good physical bulk and can retaliate with status and STAB Psychic.
**The Legendary Birds**: All three legendary birds resist Razor Leaf and 2HKO with super effective STAB attacks, while Zapdos also has the option of paralysing.
**Alakazam and Jynx**: Alakazam and Jynx both outspeed Venusaur and 2HKO it with their STAB attacks, however Alakazam has a 74% chance to be KO'd by boosted Hyper Beam, while Jynx is always OHKO'd (assuming no misses)
I think this could maybe be made more detailed;
  • Surely Gengar should have Psychic mentioned here in some capacity? It's not used that much, but FWIW on the ladder, it came up at ~33% here and had 4.55% usage at the last SPL here (to be accurate, here are the moves + teammates stats). It's a 3HKO most of the time or a 2HKO with literally any prior damage or a special drop.
  • Mentioning Zapdos's Drill Peck and Articuno's Blizzard, while going without saying, should at least be there to note the calcs. Both are guaranteed 2HKOs.
  • May be better to say +2 Hyper Beam on the Zam+Jynx bit, rather than "boosted", for extra clarity.
Otherwise, it seems alright.
 
I amended the Jynx/Zam things to be +2 rather than boosted.

Regarding ZapCuno (also Molt), I already note that their STAB attacks 2HKO, I don't see the need to name the attacks

Disagree with mentioning Psychic Gengar. Psychic Gengar I think is garbage that should not really be used, and therefore doesn't really warrant mention. Ladder stats are not terribly representative of competitive play due to the sheer number of newbies on the ladder. SPL usage stats avoid this, but I checked and that 4.55% usage was only a single use in the entire SPL. I don't think that can be plausibly used as a basis for anything really
 

Plague von Karma

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I amended the Jynx/Zam things to be +2 rather than boosted.

Regarding ZapCuno (also Molt), I already note that their STAB attacks 2HKO, I don't see the need to name the attacks

Disagree with mentioning Psychic Gengar. Psychic Gengar I think is garbage that should not really be used, and therefore doesn't really warrant mention. Ladder stats are not terribly representative of competitive play due to the sheer number of newbies on the ladder. SPL usage stats avoid this, but I checked and that 4.55% usage was only a single use in the entire SPL. I don't think that can be plausibly used as a basis for anything really
Mm, I suppose the ZapCuno thing is alright in that case, feels a bit shaky though. It's probably just me.

Given Gengar KOs with Night Shade just fine and makes roughly the same progress, the Gengar bit is probably ok as-is in that case. The ladder usage was at 1630 mark, though I agree it isn't representative of the meta, which is why I cited SPL in addition to it. You are right that it's single-use.
 

FriendOfMrGolem120

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On the other hand, Venusaur's superior physical bulk makes it more effective against Snorlax and Rhydon
I think this is a bit misleading since Victreebel has the ability to use Wrap against Snorlax and thus a greater chance to avoid Body Slam paralysis, getting self-destructed on etc. And Venusaur is going to be intended to switch into Snorlax attacks very often. The Rhydon point is fair and maybe you could add that unlike Victreebel, Venusaur can never be 2HKO'd by EQ barring crits.
Sleep Powder is a generally useful move
Maybe mention here (or probably even better in the overview) that Venusaur's speed can come in handy for using it since it outspeeds the other grass type sleep inducers which gives it a nice niche. (the following doesn't need to be said in the analysis but I can think of situations where you get Rhydon in on a recover turn from Alakazam and then double switch to Venusaur as the opponent switches to Exeggutor (or Victreebel) which puts you in a nice position, especially if you can predict right)
**Gengar**: Gengar is a hard counter as it's immune to Venusaur's boosted Normal attacks and resists Razor Leaf, while comfortably KOing with Night Shade
Maybe I am overly nitpicking here but to me "KOing" is a bit associated with immediately doing lots of damage or even OHKOing. I personally would rather say something like beating or wearing it down. If you think your phrasing is better, I am not opposed if you are going to keep it.
I am not feeling strongly about it, but I probably would briefly mention Psychic as a possibility as well.

I will try to get the opinion of Lusch on the analysis since he has used Venusaur multiple times.
 
I think this is a bit misleading since Victreebel has the ability to use Wrap against Snorlax and thus a greater chance to avoid Body Slam paralysis, getting self-destructed on etc. And Venusaur is going to be intended to switch into Snorlax attacks very often. The Rhydon point is fair and maybe you could add that unlike Victreebel, Venusaur can never be 2HKO'd by EQ barring crits.

Maybe mention here (or probably even better in the overview) that Venusaur's speed can come in handy for using it since it outspeeds the other grass type sleep inducers which gives it a nice niche. (the following doesn't need to be said in the analysis but I can think of situations where you get Rhydon in on a recover turn from Alakazam and then double switch to Venusaur as the opponent switches to Exeggutor (or Victreebel) which puts you in a nice position, especially if you can predict right)

Maybe I am overly nitpicking here but to me "KOing" is a bit associated with immediately doing lots of damage or even OHKOing. I personally would rather say something like beating or wearing it down. If you think your phrasing is better, I am not opposed if you are going to keep it.
I am not feeling strongly about it, but I probably would briefly mention Psychic as a possibility as well.

I will try to get the opinion of Lusch on the analysis since he has used Venusaur multiple times.
Fair enough regarding Lax, I reworded that bit to mention stray hits rather than a dedicated 1v1 matchup, since I still think the difference in bulk is worth noting, though you're right in that Bel's access to Wrap makes it better 1v1. That said, half the reason the comparison is necessary is because Bel can run exactly the same set as Venu, and if you're intending to use Bel as a SD sweeper, Wrap isn't the best fit (I know the two moves can be used together, but to me such sets function differently to a dedicated SD set), in which case Venu is unambiguously better vs Lax

Implemented the sleep/speed advantage point

Implemented the KO point, it now reads defeat, which less heavily implies immense damage

edit: implemented below
 
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FriendOfMrGolem120

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Venusaur's superior physical bulk makes it more effective against Rhydon due to not being 2HKO'd by Earthquake while also allowing it to take stray hits from Snorlax and Tauros better
Perhaps make it clearer that the bulk against Rhydon mainly matters for switching into EQ and not in a 1v1 fight. Or combine Rhydon, Lax and Tauros into one group and mention the favorable odds to not be 2HKO'd by any attacks these mons commonly use (disregarding Self Destruct).

QC 1/2
 

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